November 14, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode, we’re all about surviving the chaos of getting out and about with kids, from keeping car seats legal and finding shady spots on hot days to just trying to keep them (and us) hydrated.
We also dive into the whole “should you make your kid apologize” debate, chatting about how to balance teaching empathy with not forcing meaningless apologies.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan (00:00):
I think we all have a lot to learn from the way kids
respond to big emotional events.
Like if, if I do something thatmakes my daughter upset, she
wants to hug me.
Yeah.
When I apply that same logic tomy adult relationships, I'm
like, that is not how we respondas adults.
(00:22):
Hey Jordan.
Hi Lindsay.
I feel like I didn't say that.
Yeah.
Hi.
Hi.
How's it going?
Lindsay (00:30):
Fantastic.
Jordan (00:32):
Super duper.
Packing for
Lindsay (00:34):
Alaska.
Hey.
Jordan (00:36):
Fun.
Lindsay (00:38):
Get out of the heat.
Oh my gosh, and the day we leaveis supposed to be like only 85
here I know it's actuallystarting to cool down.
I swear to god, but it's gonnabe fine.
I'm still gonna be very happyout of Out of here.
I've been to Juneau and I'vebeen to Sitka now like multiple
times.
My husband's extended familyowns a nice little charter there
and we go fishing and we bringback fish for the year.
(01:00):
Slash for friends.
Yes.
Just kidding.
Pregnant friends that need thoseamenities.
I have enjoyed
Jordan (01:08):
some really nice fresh saltwater fish.
Oh my god.
It's the best.
I can't wait to
Lindsay (01:14):
eat the shit out of it when I'm
Jordan (01:16):
there.
Oh, I'm sure it's the best whenyou're actually there.
It's
Lindsay (01:20):
coming
Jordan (01:21):
fresh
Lindsay (01:21):
out of the water.
Yeah.
Ugh.
Jordan (01:23):
Fresh salmon roe.
Lindsay (01:24):
Heaven.
Jordan (01:24):
Sweet.
Um.
Yeah.
Did you, uh, did you figure outwhich direction you're going to
put your car seat in your carwhen you go to Alaska?
Lindsay (01:33):
I found the Alaska law, yes.
We're out of our car seat and,um, now in a convertible slash
booster.
And we've had a lot of hotdebate about
Jordan (01:45):
this.
Lindsay (01:45):
As a first time mom, I was=like=, okay, what's my state
law and what are therequirements for the car seat
for me to make a generaldecision about forward facing or
rear facing?
Yes.
Didn't even know that there weresuggestions out there=====.
I didn't even know that that waseven a thing.
Dude, I didn't even know.
I just thought I was like, I'mjust going to look for the state
(02:06):
law and the requirements and goby that.
Yeah.
so yeah, uh, I found out whatAlaska is and she'll be rear
facing in Alaska.
Jordan (02:13):
So this all came up when, I, my kid's been in a
convertible seat for quite awhile now, and I've had her rear
facing the whole time because,Didn't even know that.
Yeah, so, and, yeah, in, in her,like, car seat manual it said,
like, strongly suggests rear,rear facing for safety until,
you know, the capacity for thecar seat, which I think is like
45 pounds or something thatwe're nowhere near.
(02:34):
So I was like, okay, cool, yeah,we'll install rear facing.
Didn't really think much of itafter that.
And then, Lindsay was telling meon a Marco polo that her, her
kid was fussing in the back.
And I was like, you know, that'snormal.
Didn't think anything of it, butshe was like, yeah, this like
forward facing thing.
Isn't like totally goingperfectly for us.
And I was like, wait, are yousure she's supposed to be, can
(02:55):
she be forward facing?
But.
So I was like, Yeah,
Lindsay (03:01):
it was fine though.
It definitely wasn't an argumentwith you.
Well, no, no.
But it was more like, I waslike, Well, yeah, she's hit the
requirements for height andweight.
Which is
Jordan (03:09):
20 pounds in Utah.
20, uh, Right, you said?
Yeah,
Lindsay (03:12):
20 pounds.
Okay, so, The Utah law is 20pounds or under, the baby must
be rear that also means you canchoose rear facing after 20
pounds, right?
You can do that, but that is thelaw.
her car seat requirements, LikeI've already checked this like
(03:33):
millions of times and I shouldalmost make it right out of my
hand, but I'm fairly certain theminimal weight is 22 pounds and
the minimal height is 28 andshe, for forward facing, for
forward facing.
I was like, okay, there's no,that's where she's at.
So there's no law for this.
And are at this point and she'shit the requirements.
Let's do this.
(03:54):
Okay.
Technically she's safe, right?
We're in a safe car, she's inour car seat properly, yada yada
yada.
However, yes she is more saferear facing.
We all know that.
Jordan (04:07):
Now we all know after a big hot debate on Facebook that
Lindsay had with a big momgroup, we have discovered.
Yeah.
Lindsay (04:18):
So I don't know if some of you are on this Facebook
group, but some of you may belistening in.
I am the chick yesterday thatasked about the, what I was
like, dudes, help me out here.
What's the Utah law?
Because I'm seeing this as thelaw and there are a lot of
suggestions and a lot ofrecommendations that are quite
literally different.
(04:38):
So many suggestions.
Our government for our countryhas a different suggestion than
the Utah Highway State Patrol,as well as the hospital, as well
as like the National Car SeatAssociation.
Like, everyone is different.
So as a first time mom, I'mlike, This is overwhelming.
Yeah.
(04:59):
I mean, as if car
Jordan (04:59):
seats aren't a big enough pain in the ass already.
Lindsay (05:02):
I just want it simple.
What's my fucking state law andwhat's the requirements on this
car seat for me to make adecision.
so we did front forward facingfor a few, for like a week.
Mind you, she's really only inthe car like three times max a
week at like max.
You don't have to defendyourself.
I know, but a lot of moms.
Definitely chimed in and I'm sograteful for their concern and
(05:25):
like their Passion behind likeshe is not safe forward facing
like everyone's like two or moreor two or older two or older but
there's no law and my I think myMy question got a little
confused there because I wasjust wanting to know what the
law was and I was just like heyI can't find the law for
convertible car seat.
Like what are we doing past 20pounds in this state?
(05:46):
Could not find it.
And so like, it'll say, it wouldsay like, you should have your
child rear facing until the ageof two.
That's not the, that's not alaw, that's a suggestion and a
recommendation.
So I just want to, I don't evenknow why I'm so hyped up.
I just want to make sure thatthis is clarified that I was
(06:07):
just as a first time mom lookingfor a law.
I was looking at all of theresources and they were all
different.
Jordan (06:12):
Well, and that's the thing, that's why you're so
hyped up, because obviously allof us moms want what's best for
our teeny kids.
Can't this just be like afederal, so let's just make a
single guideline, federal law.
Yeah.
Across the board.
Yeah.
And not all this wishy washy,like, well, we suggest this, but
we suggest this, and we suggestthis.
And then every car
Lindsay (06:32):
seat company is different for the weight, which
is fine because that's theirmanufactured, like, figuring
out.
But it doesn't make it simplefor us.
No.
So what I'm doing is likelooking for the law in every
state that I travel to and goingby the law, but I'm also
literally going to have her rearfacing down until the age of 22,
just to say it.
Okay, like there's more there'smore recommendations and there's
(06:55):
more suggestions about the agetoo.
I'm going to go with that sohere's the, the gist of it is,
get yourself informed.
Maybe chat with, maybe chat withsome people about what the
recommendation is and maybe findout the law as well if you'd
like.
I think it's probably a goodidea to find out the law so if
you get pulled over you're notgetting a ticket or something.
(07:16):
Yeah.
And then follow your heart.
And then follow your heart.
Make a decision for your family.
But like I said, I appreciateall the input and all the care
on it.
Got
Jordan (07:26):
hot on Facebook.
Yeah.
it's a hot
Lindsay (07:30):
topic.
I mean, safety, I think a lot ofsafety is our kids.
Safety is a lot of, like our USmoms are just like Mama Baron.
Mm-Hmm And you know, just liketrying to do everything the
best.
And I just was just trying tofind the law.
Um.
And, uh, I think that's probablywhere I got confused.
Yeah.
But we got there.
(07:50):
We got there.
You
Jordan (07:51):
made a decision for your family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, now you can drive withconfidence everywhere you go.
I am
Lindsay (07:57):
sure we're going to get a little input on this, uh,
Yeah.
I'm sure.
Which is fine.
And for the record, both of ushave our kids we are facing.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
I'm seriously, like, chill aboutit.
I appreciate it all because it'sreally fascinating to learn
about, uh, And, um, just knowthat you're doing the best you
can.
Jordan (08:15):
Yeah.
Anyway, that's, uh, that's thelittle bit of fun that we've
been chatting about this week.
But it's not our main topic forthe episode, so we can kind of
crunch into that now.
Lindsay (08:25):
Yeah, um, speaking about, you know, car seats,
this, uh, episode is going tokind of be about, like, going
out and about with your kid.
this is obviously not how toperfect these outings.
Jordan (08:38):
No outing is going to be perfect.
We all know no outing is goingto be perfect.
Lindsay (08:42):
Your life is real.
I can't.
Sometimes things are out of yourcontrol.
That's not your life.
Like tomorrow's a new day.
Thank God for that.
It's good for your kid to beexposed to like, you know, just
kind of random shit.
What's up?
Ideally, you know, you probablywant that sitter for a random
doctor appointment or a random,like, outing where you need some
(09:05):
space, but in real life, also,your kid's probably going to be
tagging along with you.
That's very common, and it'sreally great for your kid to be
tagging along with you becausethey're going to learn a lot
about going out and about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some of the things that, I'vepicked up is, like, Having a
well rested, well fed kid beforeeven leaving the house.
(09:25):
Yes, absolutely.
Um, that was like, that's a bigdeal.
allowing more time.
Like just kind of scratching ina half hour, hour onto your
errand or whatever it may be.
Things are going to go a littlebit slower.
Jordan (09:38):
Yeah, especially if you have a baby who like might need
just an extra feeding.
Yeah.
While you're out.
Lindsay (09:44):
Yeah.
Jordan (09:44):
That was us a lot.
Lindsay (09:46):
Yeah.
Or if, yeah, if your toddlerwants to stop and look and point
and.
Look at something veryintrigued, like a bug on the
sidewalk or something.
So, you know, a funny
Jordan (09:56):
thing my kids have been into that's on that note is when
we go to Costco, they havespooky Halloween decorations
out.
I mean, it's
Lindsay (10:04):
coming up.
Yeah.
And I've just been doingInstacart on Costco.
So I haven't been there.
Jordan (10:08):
True.
Yeah.
But she gets really freaked outby like this, the scary
decorations and she says scarydecorations.
And then she, she'll hug me thewhole time.
Another day, she hugged me thewhole time we were at Costco, so
I was like leaned over the cartall awkward.
She knew she had to go back.
Pregnant belly.
Out the door.
So it took a little longer thanwe planned.
So yes, a case in point for you.
Lindsay (10:28):
Very interesting.
Yeah.
Because you're like, should Istart?
Showing her Halloween stuff,like already and
Jordan (10:34):
looked at it, and I, you know, I was like, what's, what's
scary?
And she said, scary mouth, andAnd maybe I shouldn't have done
that, but Like, she probably hadnightmares about that werewolf
and his scary mouth.
Shoot.
Whatever, what do you do?
I don't
Lindsay (10:49):
know.
So yeah, that allows more time.
keeping, like, your, errandspretty simple, like, one to two.
I've, we've been caught on MarcoPolo with each other doing
multiple errands and, like, weboth are like, well, that was a
big mistake, so.
Yeah.
Yep.
One to two errands is awesome.
Expecting the unexpected.
You know, blowouts happen, youmight, your child might spill
(11:14):
their water completely.
You know, so just having, like,being prepared, having extra
snacks, having extra hydration,you know, all the things.
Maybe a toy, maybe a bookaround, because you just never
know if you're just going to sitin traffic and be stuck and you
need to entertain.
Jordan (11:29):
Yeah, I always do a snack, like the kind of snack
that takes a long time to eat,that's easy to grab and isn't
going to spill.
That, one of those is alwayshandy in my car.
Yep.
Lindsay (11:38):
For sure.
Yep.
So right now we're kind ofdealing with a little bit too
much heat.
With our weather.
Okay, so how are we going outand about with our kids when
it's too freaking hot out?
Because this is obviouslytempting to stay in.
A lot of people are staying inon like their severe heat
advisory days.
So there's that, there's somelittle pointers for indoors in
(12:01):
here too.
when I'm searching for stuff todo out and about with her and
it's too hot, we're runningaround maybe in town in the
morning hours before it gets hotin the afternoon.
Finding the shade.
Or water outdoors is awesome.
So like parks that have shade,there are plenty of parks that
have shade, but there are alsoplenty of parks here that don't
have shade.
(12:21):
And I don't know what the fuckis going on with that.
So anyways, if it's too hotoutside find some shade, The
pools and the splash pads, thesplash pads, there's like,
they're everywhere here.
which is awesome.
I hope that they're everywhereback in other parts of the
country too.
They're great.
And then as far as like goingindoors or you know to avoid
being outside and it's too hotThe library is fantastic.
(12:42):
Always a good one.
Yeah.
Our
Jordan (12:44):
library does, and I think most libraries, but our
library does like a littletoddler or baby book time or
like kid activities wherethey're totally free and you can
go in and it's like 20 minutesof like a little
Lindsay (12:57):
singing thing.
Yeah.
And
Jordan (12:58):
then they'll have like a little craft day afterwards or
like toys.
Most libraries, people don'tthink of this, but most
libraries actually have toysthat you can just go play with
in a section of the library.
And that's something that hasentertained my kid a lot.
I'm kind of a minimalist when itcomes to having toys at home.
Yeah.
But it's really nice to expose,expose her to different toys.
So that's cool.
It's a cool thing about thelibrary.
Lindsay (13:19):
Yep.
Museums.
Some museums are free if youjust got to get on Google and
figure out where they're at andwhat they're, what they're all
about.
We have a great animal museumhere in Provo.
That's fantastic.
My daughter freaking loves thatplace.
Yeah,
Jordan (13:31):
we need to go there still.
Lindsay (13:32):
Yeah, you should.
It's so fun.
this is kind of like random, butShields is a really good place
for kids to go.
Or like outdoor store.
It's like an outdoor store.
It's huge.
Like she loves to like, kind oflike roam these halls.
Big hallway spaces.
Mm hmm and get her steps in andjust see so she points
(13:53):
everywhere when should we go?
I'm sure so there's a lot goingon Yeah, there's like, you know,
she can go grab a soccer ball orsomething and whatever So
shields is actually a prettycool place to take your kid if
it's too hot out so that's whenit's like too hot.
Obviously, some things to lookout for when it is too hot and
your kid is like fussing oruncomfortable.
Watch for the overheatingsituation.
(14:15):
Overheating is like watchingthat face.
Flush and then up to the head,um, flushing up in the head and
forehead area.
Um, staying hydrated constantlyand obviously snacking often.
Mhm.
When we go out and about I bringmore snacks in and she probably
normally would have just to likekeep fed and hydrated out in the
(14:36):
heat.
we walk often.
You guys ride your bikes.
Yeah.
It's, it's nicer for us
Jordan (14:43):
because A, I'm pregnant and walking sucks.
And you love the breeze.
And I love the breeze of thebike.
Yes.
It gets me off my feet, whichhurt during pregnancy.
My kid loves it.
Yeah.
And it's like a little quicker,but we can still get out and
like get by the river and stuff.
Yeah.
Yep.
So
Lindsay (14:56):
we've been doing that in like the cool, coolest part
of the day.
So mornings.
Yep.
And, um, and then like, if you,can't get out in the mornings or
the evenings like and you haveto get outside and enjoy
Outdoors and fresh air and it'swarm Grab those little mini fans
that you can like clip onto yourstroller.
Yeah, those are great actuallyYeah ice water and then like
(15:16):
make sure your stroller has likea shade covering it Yeah, so
these are just like kind ofrandom tips and how to be like
comfortable out and about yeah.
Yeah.
so moving on, that is for thingsthat are like weather, weather
tidbits about being out andabout.
you can pretty much turn all ofbeing out and about into a
learning experience, all of it.
(15:38):
If you're running errands at agrocery store, there's foods and
colors all over the place.
Jordan (15:42):
Mm hmm.
Lindsay (15:43):
There are animal paintings or animal pictures on
the walls in our supermarket.
Yeah.
Out here.
Definitely.
That's always fun.
The parks have objects.
You can make mini games out at apark.
The library obviously like haslike the reading group that you
were talking about earlier.
The singing and the readinggroups is all like a huge
(16:03):
learning thing.
I kind of like the idea, I gotthis from, this idea from Sarah
Jessica Parker.
Yeah.
When she was young, she had, shegrew up in a big family and she
was young and her mom was alwaystelling them as a kid, like,
bring something to read fromhome.
I love that.
I loved reading as a kid in mymom's car.
I read the map all the time.
Oh, that's so funny.
(16:25):
But like, I think I would loveto incorporate like bringing
something to read from thehouse.
Even though I have books in thecar, I want her to get in the
habit of grabbing a book on theway to the car and just have
something so that she can like,That's a really good idea.
another learning thing, I thinkI've already mentioned this,
maybe not, but just like talkingwith your child about everything
that you see.
Jordan (16:44):
Yeah, we definitely do that.
My kid's doing letters, so whenwe see big letters like at the
store or something, we'll pointthem out and say what letters do
you see and she'll kind of likebe pretty, it keeps her pretty
engaged.
Lindsay (16:55):
Yeah, that's really cool.
another great thing about beingout and about just like outdoors
is natural light exposure has agreat positive impact on sleep.
Oh yeah.
So part of that being outside isobviously great for health.
there's exercise involved withbeing out and about.
Scooting, and biking, andwalking, and skipping, and
running, and splashing, andswinging.
(17:16):
Yeah.
Foraging, strolling, like allthe things, so yeah, all the
exercise is out there too.
safety.
So this is kind of likesomething that's interesting
too, and can kind of go alongwith like learning, but just
pausing and looking andlistening as an adult, and then
like observing your surroundingswith your kid.
Like you can point out.
(17:38):
While you're trying to observeyour surroundings and make sure
your surroundings are safe withyour child
Jordan (17:41):
Yeah, I've been doing that with my kid like now that I
know she's like fullyconversational pretty much We
when we cross this tree, I'llsay let's check for cars.
Yes, like little things I'm notteaching her like look both ways
necessarily yet.
But yeah, just like gettinglittle things like that in her
head.
Yes
Lindsay (17:57):
Yeah, super super awesome There's nothing like I
couldn't gift my child more thanbeing aware of her surroundings.
I think it's going to be.
Yeah.
That's the first thing theyteach
Jordan (18:05):
you in self defense classes actually.
Really?
Yeah.
Lindsay (18:08):
I don't think I've taken a self defense class.
Jordan (18:11):
I did when I was like maybe 12 or something.
Yeah.
Lindsay (18:13):
Interesting.
Cool.
So being out and about you'rewith your kiddo is amazing and
fun.
And Yeah.
Bring yourself a snack.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Bring yourself a snack.
I always have like a big nut bagof mixed nuts and stuff in the
(18:35):
car.
And multiple water bottles.
I bet you do.
Being out with, out and aboutwith your kid.
Fun.
Makes the day kind of go by, achunk of your day can go by real
quick.
So that's my spiel on Out andAbout With Your Kid.
Jordan (18:53):
Not a huge spiel.
No, but it's a good one.
Yeah, especially for the stay athome moms who need to get out
and about.
Lindsay (19:01):
Yes.
Hey.
Jordan (19:02):
Yeah.
How many times have I told youthat I'm
Lindsay (19:05):
about to put my head through the wall?
I work and I,
Jordan (19:10):
all I want to do is stay at home.
Yeah, if
Lindsay (19:12):
there was a freaking way that you and I could just
split time evenly.
Jordan (19:17):
Yeah, that'd be sweet.
We'll figure it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsay (19:21):
This too.
She'll be passed and figuredout.
Yeah.
Jordan (19:24):
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Well, yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I love those ideas.
Lindsay (19:27):
Yeah.
Jordan (19:28):
Sweet.
Alright, yeah, so we can move onto a trending, a trending topic
for today.
There are a lot of things I waskind of bouncing between for
trending ideas today, but therewas one that struck me as kind
of a bit more relevant, at leastfor my life, because it happened
to me sort of for the first timea couple of weeks ago, and I've
(19:49):
been feeling like I've beenwondering about it ever since,
and that is whether or not youshould make your kid apologize.
This is like something that'sbecome like a pretty hot debate
online right now.
Um, that I've seen in a coupledifferent places.
And maybe I saw it, and thenLike unconsciously remembered it
and then when it happened to meI was like, oh, this is
(20:11):
something to look into.
Could this like
Lindsay (20:12):
bleed into gentle parenting kind of?
Oh, for sure.
Okay.
It absolutely bleeds into gentleparenting.
Yeah.
Because that's like a bigtrending topic.
Yes.
Absolutely.
That's like starting to fade outas well.
A little, yeah.
It does seem like
Jordan (20:23):
it's, yeah, like it's on the, on the, uh, I think people
are on the fence about it.
So basically what came up for usis me and my kid were in bed
together just like hanging outplaying and she started playing
a little bit too rough and likesmacked me right in the eye.
And it actually like hurt reallybad.
So I kind of like, you know, Istarted and I like sat up really
quickly and was like, ah, youknow, like I actually just had a
(20:47):
natural reaction that was kindof strong.
I didn't, like, scream or shoutor anything, I just was, like,
startling, and she kind oflooked freaked out, and then her
little, like, lower lip juststarted, moving in this little
pout, and I was like, oh no, ohno, she just started crying, and
I could tell she knew she haddone something.
to hurt me or she'd donesomething that elicited like a
negative response and it madeher feel really uncomfortable So
(21:10):
then I you know calmed myselfdown as quickly as I could I was
like, hey, it's it's okay Comehere and we like hugged it out.
Yeah, and I tried to just sayYou know that that was a little
that hurt mama's eye, but I'mokay, you know like and then I
was like Can you say I'm sorryand she?
Couldn't.
She was feeling reallyemotional.
(21:31):
but yeah, in that moment I waslike, is this a, is this the
time to like ask her toapologize or teach her about
apologies?
Like, and then I, you know, ithappened a couple more times
over the course of the nextcouple of weeks.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's when I.
Started kind of like lookinginto it a bit more, but it is
definitely a hot topic right nowIt's coming up especially a lot
in kind of millennial parentingand like you said gentle
(21:54):
parenting this whole thing wherewe're like Hyperconscious of our
kids feelings and validating andyou know, all of those all those
really hot trends that aren'tyeah That aren't inherently bad.
Don't get me wrong, right?
Yeah, so there's like a bigtrend in that sort of realm Not
forcing your kid to apologize,like pretty staunchly against,
(22:15):
forcing your kid to apologizewhen they've done something to
hurt somebody else.
Right.
I guess the idea is based on apremise that you force your kid
to apologize, first of all theapology is going to be
meaningless, right?
Lindsay (22:27):
Yeah, they're not, like, putting it, they don't
even understand maybe what theword sorry is.
Totally,
Jordan (22:31):
yeah.
So it's just kind of like,what's the point in the apology
if it doesn't mean anything toyour kid?
And then also people are goingso far as to say that it could
be harmful, Because it can teachyour kid to, like, lie,
basically, which is, like, kindof taking it and swinging the
pendulum, like, pretty far, um,but say something that they
don't mean just to, like, escapepunishment, for example, or
(22:52):
because you, you know, you'remaking them, um, which I've seen
people argue can lead tofeelings of shame, too, which
kind of makes sense in momentswhere they feel like they should
apologize, but their emotionsare really big.
If you're like telling them tosay sorry, then you're like also
kind of like pointing the fingerand like saying you did
something wrong and maybe that'snot the moment to put that
(23:16):
feeling on them.
Lindsay (23:17):
so I kind of get that.
I'm trying to like reflect on mylife and I don't even remember
when in my childhood was Itaught that and I don't know if
it was like in school.
Yeah, I was like in school.
I mean, I'm sure social setting.
Yeah, I'm sure you learn it.
(23:38):
This is all very interesting.
Like, was that appropriate?
Should I have learned earlier?
I don't know.
Yeah,
Jordan (23:42):
it's, it's kind of crazy when you get into it.
It's very like layered.
=Yeah, totally.
Lindsay (23:48):
I guess I like, I could see myself, like if I made the
mistake, I would probably just.
Be the one to example it for herlike mama is sorry mama You
know, yeah, absolutely like issad or mama is overwhelmed Mama
is sorry for that.
Like I think it'd probably comeout like if you did something
(24:08):
Yeah, like if I like herfeelings raised my voice for a
shirt or Yeah, you know This
Jordan (24:16):
is something that this is something that they tell you
to do so you're totally on theright track.
Okay.
Okay.
So I read an article, In theAtlantic, and I'll link to that
in the show notes, that talksabout a psychologist who's
drawing a distinction betweenpsychological and behavioral
control when parents are takingaction to like, you know, help
guide their kids.
(24:37):
Psychological controlling, likeguilting, shaming, or being
manipulative with your kid, thatis really damaging and can lead
to problems.
In your kids behaviors andpsyche into the future, but
behavioral control, like having,you know, boundaries around this
is what we do in this context,or this is what we do in this
context.
(24:57):
And just kind of making it likea habit isn't necessarily
damaging as long as you're notdoing it in a way that is like
manipulative or too intensepsychologically for your kid.
And that's kind of where shedraws the line.
Lindsay (25:10):
Yeah, like I could see, me showcasing how to, on the
apology to my daughter, wouldteach her a proper way of how to
apologize, and that can helpclose this.
Right, or even
Jordan (25:21):
just giving her like a little nudge, and not
necessarily being like, you, youdid something wrong, you need to
apologize, like, hey, can yousay I'm sorry?
Lindsay (25:29):
yeah, this is a whole learning experience for me as a
parent.
Like teaching her how to saysorry, but like doing it,
broadcasting it to her.
Yeah,
Jordan (25:37):
like being the example.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
So my initial, like, knee jerkreactions to these ideas, that
you, like, should absolutely notforce your kid to apologize,
are, first of all, kids don'thave, like, the whole, the whole
premise is, like, that, thatkids aren't gonna actually feel
empathy, they're just doing.
(25:57):
Like a blanket apology, right?
That doesn't mean anything.
But kids this age, like my kid'sage, she's basically two, kids
this age don't have thecapacity, like the brain
capacity, to actually, like,feel, truly feel empathy.
I'm gonna say process all
Lindsay (26:11):
of that.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Jordan (26:13):
so I guess that's a fact that could, like, push you in
either direction for thisargument, but it is definitely
something to keep in mind.
Also, when kids are in asituation where they need to
apologize, like the one I, theexample I gave with my kid when
she, like, smacked me in theeye.
If she had done that to someoneelse, I would certainly want her
to feel like she, you know,would apologize to them.
That's like our sociallyaccepted norm, right?
(26:34):
Um, but she was having such bigfeelings and needing some kind
of reassurance.
Yes.
She was overwhelmed because shecould tell she did something
wrong and she's not quite ready,like mentally, to to process
that quickly.
So
Lindsay (26:46):
like hugging and like, Yeah.
Comfort.
Jordan (26:48):
So me being like, you need to now do something, she,
she's not like the right timefor her to learn that skill,
right?
Like she, what she needs is forher feelings to be like
recognized and taken care of byme, the older person who has
like a head on my shoulders,right?
So that's another thing I think.
(27:09):
And then also like, there'sanother little thing that is
feels sort of related where Itell my kid to say thank you,
right?
And like no one says that'swrong to teach your kid to say
thank you.
Um, and it's another one ofthose things where in these
social contexts, like someonedoes something nice for your kid
and you say, you say, Oh, canyou say thank you?
And then they say, thank you.
And it helps the other adultfeel seen and appreciated.
(27:31):
And it's cute when the kid doesit.
And she does it spontaneously.
Now, like I'll hand her like alittle piece of fruit or
something and she'll go, Thanks.
Like, yeah.
And it's so cute.
She, and maybe she doesn't fullyunderstand gratitude as a two
year old.
But then, is there somethingwrong with instilling this
little habit?
Lindsay (27:50):
Right?
Gosh, that's that's sointeresting.
Jordan (27:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I kind of am just like,well, you know, maybe, maybe
saying I'm sorry, if you justnudge them gently to say I'm
sorry, is a good thing.
It's no more harmful thangetting them to say, thank you.
It's just like something thatthey will eventually learn a
deeper meaning of as they gothrough life, which is kind of
true of basically everything.
Lindsay (28:13):
little ones are so observant.
And then us just being theexample, I think, does a huge
part for them.
Definitely.
Jordan (28:21):
Yeah, and I think that that's also a big part of the
argument that people make infavor of not forcing your kid.,
there's a, there's a, There's anInstagram account called big
little feelings and one of theirco founders.
Her name's Dina Margolin.
She's a child therapist Sheargues that instructing a kid to
say sorry doesn't teach them tofeel empathy.
Like I said, they don't reallyfeel empathy anyway Mm hmm, and
(28:43):
there are better ways to teachyour kid empathy And like you
said, the best one is by exampleSo when you do something that
like upsets your child model howyou want them to act.
And eventually that's thebehavior that will stick.
so the, the main recommendationhere is to like name the harm,
describe how it affected theother person.
This is probably really good forour adult lives too.
Yes.
(29:03):
Yeah.
I don't think adults are thatgood at apologizing.
We talk a lot
Lindsay (29:07):
about in couples therapy, um, about how we feel.
Yeah.
How does everything make youfeel?
Cause we don't, we weren'treally taught to.
Say our feelings much yeah inour lives.
Yeah, and all of a sudden we'rein this relationship, and we
need to express how we feel Allthe time.
We're practicing that, but it'sa skill.
Jordan (29:28):
Yes.
It's a
Lindsay (29:29):
whole skill, but like, yeah, go on.
Yeah, totally.
Jordan (29:31):
So name the thing that hurt the other person, describe
how it affected them andvalidate their feelings and then
make some kind of commitment.
This is something I wouldn'thave done personally, like I
thought to do, but make somekind of commitment to your child
to not engage in that behavior.
In the future.
So obviously like if this issomething like you have to put
them to bed and they're mad atyou like, yeah, exactly the time
(29:52):
you're going to demonstratethis, but we will all mess up as
parents.
Yeah.
And I don't doubt that therewill be plenty of opportunities
for me to model this kind of anapology.
And it's something that like inthe moment.
If I need to apologize forsomething to my kid, I'm
probably feeling emotionallyworked up too.
Yeah.
And that's something that like,yeah, you got, like, might not
(30:12):
just come naturally even to me.
I don't know how that's gonnafeel.
You know what I mean?
So it's good to have a plan forsomething that you maybe would
feel emotional about in thefuture, I think will help you
just to like, do the thing thatyou want to do instead of acting
just based on your emotions.
Lindsay (30:26):
So like if, if my daughter is pulling on my hair
hardcore or if she, you know, isrough or whatever with play, My
knee jerk response to her isgentle to mama or gentle to our
dog, gentle to dad, that like,then she recognized, she
recognizes that.
(30:46):
Yeah.
And that feels like a
Jordan (30:48):
step one sort of level understanding for you to teach
her like.
There is a way to treat otherpeople.
Yeah, sure.
Which is nice.
Yeah, totally.
She went ahead and swung atAndrew the other day, Oh no.
And he
Lindsay (31:02):
did the whole like put his head down and like was like,
that hurt dad.
You know, like, yeah.
And she looked so sad.
Looked at him and she like, youcould tell she was trying to
figure out the emotion.
What she just did to him.
And she like, you know, crinkledher eyebrows and she was like,
what just happened?
And then all of a sudden shelost it.
(31:23):
Oh no.
She was so sad to see dad hurt.
Yeah.
She, and it broke his heartbecause he's, I I would never do
that again to her.
Yeah.
it's so weird when that momentcomes, comes up for the first
time, her heart, oh man, that'sso sad.
She baw the ball.
The ball.
But there was a lot of hugginggoing on.
Yeah.
And like, we're, you know.
Just, you know, soothing thesituation.
(31:46):
But it was very interesting tosee her reaction.
Like that was the first time shehad ever been that sad.
Seeing myself or Andrew
Jordan (31:55):
like hurt.
Oh, that's so sweet.
I think we all have a lot to,this is sort of separate point,
but I think we all have a lot tolearn from the way kids respond
to big emotional events.
Like if, if I do something thatmakes my daughter upset, she
wants to hug me.
Yeah.
Which is, it feels, when I applythat same logic to my adult
relationships, I'm like, that isnot how we respond as adults.
(32:18):
Like when Adrian pisses me off,I don't want to hug him.
But what if I did?
It would probably make ourconflicts a lot easier.
You know what I mean?
Like it would show him like, noI want you to love me.
I don't want you to piss me off.
We're really
Lindsay (32:32):
raising a whole generation of children right
now.
Dude, it's a lot of work.
It's a lot.
It's a lot of
Jordan (32:37):
work! Alright, so then the uh, one last thing I want to
make a point of is people whoargue against forcing apologies
also say, and I definitely agreewith this one, um, that it's
important to have conversationswith your kid and sometimes Like
conversations separate from theincident and sometimes in
private, not in front of thepeople who were involved in the,
like, you know, the harm doing,
Lindsay (32:57):
that could teach empathy.
Yes,
Jordan (32:58):
absolutely.
Yeah.
And then just like go throughthe scenario with them and yeah,
talk about, you know, how tomake amends and, and everything
like that.
On the pro side of the fence.
Um, I found an article onpsychology today, uh, That gave
examples of research supportingthe idea that kids, like even
little kids, who are on thereceiving end of an apology
respond, Pretty well to theapology like they're more likely
(33:21):
to trust the person apologizingand feel more positive emotions
after hearing the apology and itdoesn't really matter in those
contexts whether the apology wasforced by the parent or
caregiver or If it wasspontaneous the age that that
started to matter was like sevento nine years old So for tiny
kids, it might actually help ifyou if you tell your kid to
(33:44):
apologize You know, that's thiscould be interesting for play
dates Totally interesting forplaydates.
Because, like, Because right
Lindsay (33:51):
now they're learning how to share.
Jordan (33:52):
Totally.
And it's not always clean.
No.
No.
Yeah, yeah.
So it'll be interesting, yeah,it's an interesting thing to
kind of play around with, forsure.
Yeah.
Another thing that thatPsychology Today article, and
I'll again link to that in theshow notes, said that both types
of apologies, forced orspontaneous, help to repair the
relationship, but neither typehelps the victim feel better as
(34:14):
much as making amends does.
And I'm like, okay, well whatdoes that look like
specifically?
Um, so examples of making amendswould be like sharing a toy
after, like if my kid took one,took a toy from your kid, like
her sharing it, her seeing thatyour kid's pissed and then
sharing, sharing it with them.
Is an example of making amends,or like if she were to smack
your kid.
(34:35):
I hope my kid doesn't do allthese things, but she probably
will at some point.
If she were to like smack yourkid and then saw that she was
hurt and then gave her like ahug.
Yeah.
Or if you know, you knocksomething over of someone else's
and then they help them torebuild it.
Yeah.
So like little gestures ofkindness that, that show like
that they recognize that, thatthat thing they did wasn't quite
(34:56):
right.
That is the thing that helps torebuild the relationship.
and the victim's feelings betterthan anything else.
And, is a good way to teachyour, also teach your kid
empathy, I think.
Like, uh, Oh, you, you knockedthat over and it made that kid
feel sad.
Let's help them build it backup.
Yes.
it's just another way we canmodel.
(35:17):
Yeah.
you know, interpersonalrelationship wins.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So my take at the end of theday, my little hot take is it
kind of feels the same as like,I don't know if when you got
into baby led weaning, you werelike, what the heck?
Cause there, it seems like onone side of the argument,
everyone's like, Pro purees andon the other side of the
(35:38):
argument.
Everyone's like anti purees.
Yeah, but can I just give my kidpurees and yeah So we were like
Lindsay (35:46):
making purees chunkier and chunkier
Jordan (35:48):
Totally, but like yeah, and the point is like if you're
being a conscious parent andyou're not psychologically, you
know manipulative or being toointense with your kids feelings
and You're like being consciousof their feelings and validating
them Um And I think it's,there's no harm in gently
nudging them into an apologywhile they're young, just so
(36:11):
that they understand this is thecontext in which you apologize.
Definitely going to come up inthe future.
And it's probably going to bewhat they do at school too.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
It feels like one of thosethings that got like totally,
Yeah, this was a fantastictrending topic.
But that is interesting to thinkabout.
So cool.
Lindsay (36:31):
Yeah.
It's this, this is the kind ofstuff that I like to chat about
because, yeah, I wouldn't havehad this conversation and I
don't think I would, I probablywould have been like when the
time came and I probably wouldhave been like you, like, wait,
is now the time?
Yeah.
Or did she need to learn that inschool?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Very cool.
I love talking about this kindof stuff.
It's fun.
Jordan (36:51):
Yeah.
So I think I will still saylike, Hey, can you say I'm
sorry?
Yeah.
Maybe not quite yet, butdefinitely eventually.
Yeah.
And model the behavior and haveconversations with them about
how people feel.
I think it'll all work out inthe end.
That's what I think.
I like it.
I like the way you think.
Lindsay (37:10):
Great.
That was awesome.
Yeah.
Hell yeah.
Cool.
wrap it up.
Wrap it up with back to the maintopic.
Sure.
Out and about.
Full circle.
Yo, I can't recommend Crocsenough.
Crocs! Crocs! Man, like Croc,you know, we all know what Crocs
are the brand.
(37:31):
There's off brands, go get theoff brand if you don't have the
funds or the color or the sizethat you want in a regular brand
of Crocs.
Jordan (37:40):
The critical pieces are
Lindsay (37:41):
washability, wettability, spray off with a
hose, easy to put on, easy totake off.
My child knows how to put on herCrocs so easily.
Oh, does she really?
That's so cute.
Jordan (37:54):
With the strap on the back and everything, dang, I
haven't even tried to teach mykid that.
Lindsay (37:59):
Yeah, she picked it up.
She got actually put on her rainboots really well first.
Oh, funky.
That was really cool.
Yeah.
Right toe and every Really?
Right foot and everything.
Impressive.
Yeah, there was like maybe likea handful of times in the
beginning that was wrong foot,but she figured out fast and
then those crocs were like on.
Yeah.
Cute.
Um, but yeah, it's, they're sogreat.
(38:19):
They're easy to wash.
They're like, Yeah.
Jordan (38:22):
They're the best kid's shoe ever.
They're actually, they're, andI've been wearing only Crocs
throughout this pregnancy.
Yes.
Good adult shoes.
Yeah, they are.
Lindsay (38:31):
She doesn't slip in her kiddie pool.
She doesn't slip out and aboutanywhere.
but yeah, these Crocs, they can
Jordan (38:37):
run in them.
My kid runs quick in them andI'm always like,
Lindsay (38:40):
well, be careful on the sidewalk, but she hasn't
Jordan (38:43):
eaten shit yet.
Lindsay (38:44):
Yeah.
We are definitely wearing Crocsin our household and Man,
they're just like the best kid,toddler shoe ever.
Jordan (38:54):
I feel like that's not gonna change.
Like as my kid grows, I feellike Crocs are gonna always be.
Lindsay (38:59):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I mean, like you, you're wearingCrocs.
I'm wearing Crocs still.
Yeah.
All the funky designs and colorsare out there.
I think their stock went crazyamazing over COVID.
Interesting.
People were camping andgardening way more.
And I guess that's true.
I'm not caring about how
Jordan (39:18):
they look.
Lindsay (39:22):
I love that.
Yeah.
Not that Crocs aren't beautiful.
I'm not sure if I'm not sure ifI'm on the platform train yet.
They have like platforms now.
I don't know if I'm there yet.
I don't know if I could do that.
But Crocs in general areamazing.
Jordan (39:37):
Yeah, that's a good recommendation.
If you're getting them as an
Lindsay (39:39):
adult, get a size up so that you can wear, like, your
socks with them.
Jordan (39:43):
Yeah, it is nice to wear socks with them, especially when
it's like hot.
Yeah.
Don't want sweaty feet andcracks.
Yeah, no.
But then you can always justhose them off when they do get
sweaty.
Lindsay (39:52):
Yes! I don't know, they're the best.
They float.
They float
Jordan (39:56):
in the water.
I never even thought of thatbenefit.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Lindsay (40:00):
Anyways, on and on and on about crocs and I'm
recommending those on thisepisode.
Jordan (40:06):
I love that for everyone.
Yeah.
Check them out guys if you don'talready have 10 pairs at home.
Thank you so much for joiningus, everybody.
Yeah.
Um, check us out atwehavekidpodcast on Instagram.
Lindsay (40:19):
Yep.
Our website.
Hit subscribe if you'd like.
Jordan (40:22):
Yeah.
Our website iswehavekidspodcast.
com.
Mm hmm.
And, yeah, like, subscribe,review if you feel like it.
We are.
Yeah.
That'd be cool.
Let's be your mom.
We want to be mom
Lindsay (40:34):
friends.
Yeah.
Let's be mom friends.
Parent friends or mom friends.
Yes.
Jordan (40:39):
Well, we're moms, so we can be mom friends to anybody.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
Sweet.
Thanks so much.
We will talk to y'all soon.
Chit chat later.
Bye.
Bye.
I think we all have a lot to learn from the way kids
respond to big emotional events.
Like if, if I do something thatmakes my daughter upset, she
wants to hug me.
Yeah.
When I apply that same logic tomy adult relationships, I'm
like, that is not how we respondas adults.
(00:22):
Hey Jordan.
Hi Lindsay.
I feel like I didn't say that.
Yeah.
Hi.
Hi.
How's it going?
Lindsay (00:30):
Fantastic.
Jordan (00:32):
Super duper.
Packing for
Lindsay (00:34):
Alaska.
Hey.
Jordan (00:36):
Fun.
Lindsay (00:38):
Get out of the heat.
Oh my gosh, and the day we leaveis supposed to be like only 85
here I know it's actuallystarting to cool down.
I swear to god, but it's gonnabe fine.
I'm still gonna be very happyout of Out of here.
I've been to Juneau and I'vebeen to Sitka now like multiple
times.
My husband's extended familyowns a nice little charter there
and we go fishing and we bringback fish for the year.
(01:00):
Slash for friends.
Yes.
Just kidding.
Pregnant friends that need thoseamenities.
I have enjoyed
Jordan (01:08):
some really nice fresh saltwater fish.
Oh my god.
It's the best.
I can't wait to
Lindsay (01:14):
eat the shit out of it when I'm
Jordan (01:16):
there.
Oh, I'm sure it's the best whenyou're actually there.
It's
Lindsay (01:20):
coming
Jordan (01:21):
fresh
Lindsay (01:21):
out of the water.
Yeah.
Ugh.
Jordan (01:23):
Fresh salmon roe.
Lindsay (01:24):
Heaven.
Jordan (01:24):
Sweet.
Um.
Yeah.
Did you, uh, did you figure outwhich direction you're going to
put your car seat in your carwhen you go to Alaska?
Lindsay (01:33):
I found the Alaska law, yes.
We're out of our car seat and,um, now in a convertible slash
booster.
And we've had a lot of hotdebate about
Jordan (01:45):
this.
Lindsay (01:45):
As a first time mom, I was=like=, okay, what's my state
law and what are therequirements for the car seat
for me to make a generaldecision about forward facing or
rear facing?
Yes.
Didn't even know that there weresuggestions out there=====.
I didn't even know that that waseven a thing.
Dude, I didn't even know.
I just thought I was like, I'mjust going to look for the state
(02:06):
law and the requirements and goby that.
Yeah.
so yeah, uh, I found out whatAlaska is and she'll be rear
facing in Alaska.
Jordan (02:13):
So this all came up when, I, my kid's been in a
convertible seat for quite awhile now, and I've had her rear
facing the whole time because,Didn't even know that.
Yeah, so, and, yeah, in, in her,like, car seat manual it said,
like, strongly suggests rear,rear facing for safety until,
you know, the capacity for thecar seat, which I think is like
45 pounds or something thatwe're nowhere near.
(02:34):
So I was like, okay, cool, yeah,we'll install rear facing.
Didn't really think much of itafter that.
And then, Lindsay was telling meon a Marco polo that her, her
kid was fussing in the back.
And I was like, you know, that'snormal.
Didn't think anything of it, butshe was like, yeah, this like
forward facing thing.
Isn't like totally goingperfectly for us.
And I was like, wait, are yousure she's supposed to be, can
(02:55):
she be forward facing?
But.
So I was like, Yeah,
Lindsay (03:01):
it was fine though.
It definitely wasn't an argumentwith you.
Well, no, no.
But it was more like, I waslike, Well, yeah, she's hit the
requirements for height andweight.
Which is
Jordan (03:09):
20 pounds in Utah.
20, uh, Right, you said?
Yeah,
Lindsay (03:12):
20 pounds.
Okay, so, The Utah law is 20pounds or under, the baby must
be rear that also means you canchoose rear facing after 20
pounds, right?
You can do that, but that is thelaw.
her car seat requirements, LikeI've already checked this like
(03:33):
millions of times and I shouldalmost make it right out of my
hand, but I'm fairly certain theminimal weight is 22 pounds and
the minimal height is 28 andshe, for forward facing, for
forward facing.
I was like, okay, there's no,that's where she's at.
So there's no law for this.
And are at this point and she'shit the requirements.
Let's do this.
(03:54):
Okay.
Technically she's safe, right?
We're in a safe car, she's inour car seat properly, yada yada
yada.
However, yes she is more saferear facing.
We all know that.
Jordan (04:07):
Now we all know after a big hot debate on Facebook that
Lindsay had with a big momgroup, we have discovered.
Yeah.
Lindsay (04:18):
So I don't know if some of you are on this Facebook
group, but some of you may belistening in.
I am the chick yesterday thatasked about the, what I was
like, dudes, help me out here.
What's the Utah law?
Because I'm seeing this as thelaw and there are a lot of
suggestions and a lot ofrecommendations that are quite
literally different.
(04:38):
So many suggestions.
Our government for our countryhas a different suggestion than
the Utah Highway State Patrol,as well as the hospital, as well
as like the National Car SeatAssociation.
Like, everyone is different.
So as a first time mom, I'mlike, This is overwhelming.
Yeah.
(04:59):
I mean, as if car
Jordan (04:59):
seats aren't a big enough pain in the ass already.
Lindsay (05:02):
I just want it simple.
What's my fucking state law andwhat's the requirements on this
car seat for me to make adecision.
so we did front forward facingfor a few, for like a week.
Mind you, she's really only inthe car like three times max a
week at like max.
You don't have to defendyourself.
I know, but a lot of moms.
Definitely chimed in and I'm sograteful for their concern and
(05:25):
like their Passion behind likeshe is not safe forward facing
like everyone's like two or moreor two or older two or older but
there's no law and my I think myMy question got a little
confused there because I wasjust wanting to know what the
law was and I was just like heyI can't find the law for
convertible car seat.
Like what are we doing past 20pounds in this state?
(05:46):
Could not find it.
And so like, it'll say, it wouldsay like, you should have your
child rear facing until the ageof two.
That's not the, that's not alaw, that's a suggestion and a
recommendation.
So I just want to, I don't evenknow why I'm so hyped up.
I just want to make sure thatthis is clarified that I was
(06:07):
just as a first time mom lookingfor a law.
I was looking at all of theresources and they were all
different.
Jordan (06:12):
Well, and that's the thing, that's why you're so
hyped up, because obviously allof us moms want what's best for
our teeny kids.
Can't this just be like afederal, so let's just make a
single guideline, federal law.
Yeah.
Across the board.
Yeah.
And not all this wishy washy,like, well, we suggest this, but
we suggest this, and we suggestthis.
And then every car
Lindsay (06:32):
seat company is different for the weight, which
is fine because that's theirmanufactured, like, figuring
out.
But it doesn't make it simplefor us.
No.
So what I'm doing is likelooking for the law in every
state that I travel to and goingby the law, but I'm also
literally going to have her rearfacing down until the age of 22,
just to say it.
Okay, like there's more there'smore recommendations and there's
(06:55):
more suggestions about the agetoo.
I'm going to go with that sohere's the, the gist of it is,
get yourself informed.
Maybe chat with, maybe chat withsome people about what the
recommendation is and maybe findout the law as well if you'd
like.
I think it's probably a goodidea to find out the law so if
you get pulled over you're notgetting a ticket or something.
(07:16):
Yeah.
And then follow your heart.
And then follow your heart.
Make a decision for your family.
But like I said, I appreciateall the input and all the care
on it.
Got
Jordan (07:26):
hot on Facebook.
Yeah.
it's a hot
Lindsay (07:30):
topic.
I mean, safety, I think a lot ofsafety is our kids.
Safety is a lot of, like our USmoms are just like Mama Baron.
Mm-Hmm And you know, just liketrying to do everything the
best.
And I just was just trying tofind the law.
Um.
And, uh, I think that's probablywhere I got confused.
Yeah.
But we got there.
(07:50):
We got there.
You
Jordan (07:51):
made a decision for your family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, uh, now you can drive withconfidence everywhere you go.
I am
Lindsay (07:57):
sure we're going to get a little input on this, uh,
Yeah.
I'm sure.
Which is fine.
And for the record, both of ushave our kids we are facing.
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
I'm seriously, like, chill aboutit.
I appreciate it all because it'sreally fascinating to learn
about, uh, And, um, just knowthat you're doing the best you
can.
Jordan (08:15):
Yeah.
Anyway, that's, uh, that's thelittle bit of fun that we've
been chatting about this week.
But it's not our main topic forthe episode, so we can kind of
crunch into that now.
Lindsay (08:25):
Yeah, um, speaking about, you know, car seats,
this, uh, episode is going tokind of be about, like, going
out and about with your kid.
this is obviously not how toperfect these outings.
Jordan (08:38):
No outing is going to be perfect.
We all know no outing is goingto be perfect.
Lindsay (08:42):
Your life is real.
I can't.
Sometimes things are out of yourcontrol.
That's not your life.
Like tomorrow's a new day.
Thank God for that.
It's good for your kid to beexposed to like, you know, just
kind of random shit.
What's up?
Ideally, you know, you probablywant that sitter for a random
doctor appointment or a random,like, outing where you need some
(09:05):
space, but in real life, also,your kid's probably going to be
tagging along with you.
That's very common, and it'sreally great for your kid to be
tagging along with you becausethey're going to learn a lot
about going out and about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Some of the things that, I'vepicked up is, like, Having a
well rested, well fed kid beforeeven leaving the house.
(09:25):
Yes, absolutely.
Um, that was like, that's a bigdeal.
allowing more time.
Like just kind of scratching ina half hour, hour onto your
errand or whatever it may be.
Things are going to go a littlebit slower.
Jordan (09:38):
Yeah, especially if you have a baby who like might need
just an extra feeding.
Yeah.
While you're out.
Lindsay (09:44):
Yeah.
Jordan (09:44):
That was us a lot.
Lindsay (09:46):
Yeah.
Or if, yeah, if your toddlerwants to stop and look and point
and.
Look at something veryintrigued, like a bug on the
sidewalk or something.
So, you know, a funny
Jordan (09:56):
thing my kids have been into that's on that note is when
we go to Costco, they havespooky Halloween decorations
out.
I mean, it's
Lindsay (10:04):
coming up.
Yeah.
And I've just been doingInstacart on Costco.
So I haven't been there.
Jordan (10:08):
True.
Yeah.
But she gets really freaked outby like this, the scary
decorations and she says scarydecorations.
And then she, she'll hug me thewhole time.
Another day, she hugged me thewhole time we were at Costco, so
I was like leaned over the cartall awkward.
She knew she had to go back.
Pregnant belly.
Out the door.
So it took a little longer thanwe planned.
So yes, a case in point for you.
Lindsay (10:28):
Very interesting.
Yeah.
Because you're like, should Istart?
Showing her Halloween stuff,like already and
Jordan (10:34):
looked at it, and I, you know, I was like, what's, what's
scary?
And she said, scary mouth, andAnd maybe I shouldn't have done
that, but Like, she probably hadnightmares about that werewolf
and his scary mouth.
Shoot.
Whatever, what do you do?
I don't
Lindsay (10:49):
know.
So yeah, that allows more time.
keeping, like, your, errandspretty simple, like, one to two.
I've, we've been caught on MarcoPolo with each other doing
multiple errands and, like, weboth are like, well, that was a
big mistake, so.
Yeah.
Yep.
One to two errands is awesome.
Expecting the unexpected.
You know, blowouts happen, youmight, your child might spill
(11:14):
their water completely.
You know, so just having, like,being prepared, having extra
snacks, having extra hydration,you know, all the things.
Maybe a toy, maybe a bookaround, because you just never
know if you're just going to sitin traffic and be stuck and you
need to entertain.
Jordan (11:29):
Yeah, I always do a snack, like the kind of snack
that takes a long time to eat,that's easy to grab and isn't
going to spill.
That, one of those is alwayshandy in my car.
Yep.
Lindsay (11:38):
For sure.
Yep.
So right now we're kind ofdealing with a little bit too
much heat.
With our weather.
Okay, so how are we going outand about with our kids when
it's too freaking hot out?
Because this is obviouslytempting to stay in.
A lot of people are staying inon like their severe heat
advisory days.
So there's that, there's somelittle pointers for indoors in
(12:01):
here too.
when I'm searching for stuff todo out and about with her and
it's too hot, we're runningaround maybe in town in the
morning hours before it gets hotin the afternoon.
Finding the shade.
Or water outdoors is awesome.
So like parks that have shade,there are plenty of parks that
have shade, but there are alsoplenty of parks here that don't
have shade.
(12:21):
And I don't know what the fuckis going on with that.
So anyways, if it's too hotoutside find some shade, The
pools and the splash pads, thesplash pads, there's like,
they're everywhere here.
which is awesome.
I hope that they're everywhereback in other parts of the
country too.
They're great.
And then as far as like goingindoors or you know to avoid
being outside and it's too hotThe library is fantastic.
(12:42):
Always a good one.
Yeah.
Our
Jordan (12:44):
library does, and I think most libraries, but our
library does like a littletoddler or baby book time or
like kid activities wherethey're totally free and you can
go in and it's like 20 minutesof like a little
Lindsay (12:57):
singing thing.
Yeah.
And
Jordan (12:58):
then they'll have like a little craft day afterwards or
like toys.
Most libraries, people don'tthink of this, but most
libraries actually have toysthat you can just go play with
in a section of the library.
And that's something that hasentertained my kid a lot.
I'm kind of a minimalist when itcomes to having toys at home.
Yeah.
But it's really nice to expose,expose her to different toys.
So that's cool.
It's a cool thing about thelibrary.
Lindsay (13:19):
Yep.
Museums.
Some museums are free if youjust got to get on Google and
figure out where they're at andwhat they're, what they're all
about.
We have a great animal museumhere in Provo.
That's fantastic.
My daughter freaking loves thatplace.
Yeah,
Jordan (13:31):
we need to go there still.
Lindsay (13:32):
Yeah, you should.
It's so fun.
this is kind of like random, butShields is a really good place
for kids to go.
Or like outdoor store.
It's like an outdoor store.
It's huge.
Like she loves to like, kind oflike roam these halls.
Big hallway spaces.
Mm hmm and get her steps in andjust see so she points
(13:53):
everywhere when should we go?
I'm sure so there's a lot goingon Yeah, there's like, you know,
she can go grab a soccer ball orsomething and whatever So
shields is actually a prettycool place to take your kid if
it's too hot out so that's whenit's like too hot.
Obviously, some things to lookout for when it is too hot and
your kid is like fussing oruncomfortable.
Watch for the overheatingsituation.
(14:15):
Overheating is like watchingthat face.
Flush and then up to the head,um, flushing up in the head and
forehead area.
Um, staying hydrated constantlyand obviously snacking often.
Mhm.
When we go out and about I bringmore snacks in and she probably
normally would have just to likekeep fed and hydrated out in the
(14:36):
heat.
we walk often.
You guys ride your bikes.
Yeah.
It's, it's nicer for us
Jordan (14:43):
because A, I'm pregnant and walking sucks.
And you love the breeze.
And I love the breeze of thebike.
Yes.
It gets me off my feet, whichhurt during pregnancy.
My kid loves it.
Yeah.
And it's like a little quicker,but we can still get out and
like get by the river and stuff.
Yeah.
Yep.
So
Lindsay (14:56):
we've been doing that in like the cool, coolest part
of the day.
So mornings.
Yep.
And, um, and then like, if you,can't get out in the mornings or
the evenings like and you haveto get outside and enjoy
Outdoors and fresh air and it'swarm Grab those little mini fans
that you can like clip onto yourstroller.
Yeah, those are great actuallyYeah ice water and then like
(15:16):
make sure your stroller has likea shade covering it Yeah, so
these are just like kind ofrandom tips and how to be like
comfortable out and about yeah.
Yeah.
so moving on, that is for thingsthat are like weather, weather
tidbits about being out andabout.
you can pretty much turn all ofbeing out and about into a
learning experience, all of it.
(15:38):
If you're running errands at agrocery store, there's foods and
colors all over the place.
Jordan (15:42):
Mm hmm.
Lindsay (15:43):
There are animal paintings or animal pictures on
the walls in our supermarket.
Yeah.
Out here.
Definitely.
That's always fun.
The parks have objects.
You can make mini games out at apark.
The library obviously like haslike the reading group that you
were talking about earlier.
The singing and the readinggroups is all like a huge
(16:03):
learning thing.
I kind of like the idea, I gotthis from, this idea from Sarah
Jessica Parker.
Yeah.
When she was young, she had, shegrew up in a big family and she
was young and her mom was alwaystelling them as a kid, like,
bring something to read fromhome.
I love that.
I loved reading as a kid in mymom's car.
I read the map all the time.
Oh, that's so funny.
(16:25):
But like, I think I would loveto incorporate like bringing
something to read from thehouse.
Even though I have books in thecar, I want her to get in the
habit of grabbing a book on theway to the car and just have
something so that she can like,That's a really good idea.
another learning thing, I thinkI've already mentioned this,
maybe not, but just like talkingwith your child about everything
that you see.
Jordan (16:44):
Yeah, we definitely do that.
My kid's doing letters, so whenwe see big letters like at the
store or something, we'll pointthem out and say what letters do
you see and she'll kind of likebe pretty, it keeps her pretty
engaged.
Lindsay (16:55):
Yeah, that's really cool.
another great thing about beingout and about just like outdoors
is natural light exposure has agreat positive impact on sleep.
Oh yeah.
So part of that being outside isobviously great for health.
there's exercise involved withbeing out and about.
Scooting, and biking, andwalking, and skipping, and
running, and splashing, andswinging.
(17:16):
Yeah.
Foraging, strolling, like allthe things, so yeah, all the
exercise is out there too.
safety.
So this is kind of likesomething that's interesting
too, and can kind of go alongwith like learning, but just
pausing and looking andlistening as an adult, and then
like observing your surroundingswith your kid.
Like you can point out.
(17:38):
While you're trying to observeyour surroundings and make sure
your surroundings are safe withyour child
Jordan (17:41):
Yeah, I've been doing that with my kid like now that I
know she's like fullyconversational pretty much We
when we cross this tree, I'llsay let's check for cars.
Yes, like little things I'm notteaching her like look both ways
necessarily yet.
But yeah, just like gettinglittle things like that in her
head.
Yes
Lindsay (17:57):
Yeah, super super awesome There's nothing like I
couldn't gift my child more thanbeing aware of her surroundings.
I think it's going to be.
Yeah.
That's the first thing theyteach
Jordan (18:05):
you in self defense classes actually.
Really?
Yeah.
Lindsay (18:08):
I don't think I've taken a self defense class.
Jordan (18:11):
I did when I was like maybe 12 or something.
Yeah.
Lindsay (18:13):
Interesting.
Cool.
So being out and about you'rewith your kiddo is amazing and
fun.
And Yeah.
Bring yourself a snack.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Bring yourself a snack.
I always have like a big nut bagof mixed nuts and stuff in the
(18:35):
car.
And multiple water bottles.
I bet you do.
Being out with, out and aboutwith your kid.
Fun.
Makes the day kind of go by, achunk of your day can go by real
quick.
So that's my spiel on Out andAbout With Your Kid.
Jordan (18:53):
Not a huge spiel.
No, but it's a good one.
Yeah, especially for the stay athome moms who need to get out
and about.
Lindsay (19:01):
Yes.
Hey.
Jordan (19:02):
Yeah.
How many times have I told youthat I'm
Lindsay (19:05):
about to put my head through the wall?
I work and I,
Jordan (19:10):
all I want to do is stay at home.
Yeah, if
Lindsay (19:12):
there was a freaking way that you and I could just
split time evenly.
Jordan (19:17):
Yeah, that'd be sweet.
We'll figure it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsay (19:21):
This too.
She'll be passed and figuredout.
Yeah.
Jordan (19:24):
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Well, yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I love those ideas.
Lindsay (19:27):
Yeah.
Jordan (19:28):
Sweet.
Alright, yeah, so we can move onto a trending, a trending topic
for today.
There are a lot of things I waskind of bouncing between for
trending ideas today, but therewas one that struck me as kind
of a bit more relevant, at leastfor my life, because it happened
to me sort of for the first timea couple of weeks ago, and I've
(19:49):
been feeling like I've beenwondering about it ever since,
and that is whether or not youshould make your kid apologize.
This is like something that'sbecome like a pretty hot debate
online right now.
Um, that I've seen in a coupledifferent places.
And maybe I saw it, and thenLike unconsciously remembered it
and then when it happened to meI was like, oh, this is
(20:11):
something to look into.
Could this like
Lindsay (20:12):
bleed into gentle parenting kind of?
Oh, for sure.
Okay.
It absolutely bleeds into gentleparenting.
Yeah.
Because that's like a bigtrending topic.
Yes.
Absolutely.
That's like starting to fade outas well.
A little, yeah.
It does seem like
Jordan (20:23):
it's, yeah, like it's on the, on the, uh, I think people
are on the fence about it.
So basically what came up for usis me and my kid were in bed
together just like hanging outplaying and she started playing
a little bit too rough and likesmacked me right in the eye.
And it actually like hurt reallybad.
So I kind of like, you know, Istarted and I like sat up really
quickly and was like, ah, youknow, like I actually just had a
(20:47):
natural reaction that was kindof strong.
I didn't, like, scream or shoutor anything, I just was, like,
startling, and she kind oflooked freaked out, and then her
little, like, lower lip juststarted, moving in this little
pout, and I was like, oh no, ohno, she just started crying, and
I could tell she knew she haddone something.
to hurt me or she'd donesomething that elicited like a
negative response and it madeher feel really uncomfortable So
(21:10):
then I you know calmed myselfdown as quickly as I could I was
like, hey, it's it's okay Comehere and we like hugged it out.
Yeah, and I tried to just sayYou know that that was a little
that hurt mama's eye, but I'mokay, you know like and then I
was like Can you say I'm sorryand she?
Couldn't.
She was feeling reallyemotional.
(21:31):
but yeah, in that moment I waslike, is this a, is this the
time to like ask her toapologize or teach her about
apologies?
Like, and then I, you know, ithappened a couple more times
over the course of the nextcouple of weeks.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's when I.
Started kind of like lookinginto it a bit more, but it is
definitely a hot topic right nowIt's coming up especially a lot
in kind of millennial parentingand like you said gentle
(21:54):
parenting this whole thing wherewe're like Hyperconscious of our
kids feelings and validating andyou know, all of those all those
really hot trends that aren'tyeah That aren't inherently bad.
Don't get me wrong, right?
Yeah, so there's like a bigtrend in that sort of realm Not
forcing your kid to apologize,like pretty staunchly against,
(22:15):
forcing your kid to apologizewhen they've done something to
hurt somebody else.
Right.
I guess the idea is based on apremise that you force your kid
to apologize, first of all theapology is going to be
meaningless, right?
Lindsay (22:27):
Yeah, they're not, like, putting it, they don't
even understand maybe what theword sorry is.
Totally,
Jordan (22:31):
yeah.
So it's just kind of like,what's the point in the apology
if it doesn't mean anything toyour kid?
And then also people are goingso far as to say that it could
be harmful, Because it can teachyour kid to, like, lie,
basically, which is, like, kindof taking it and swinging the
pendulum, like, pretty far, um,but say something that they
don't mean just to, like, escapepunishment, for example, or
(22:52):
because you, you know, you'remaking them, um, which I've seen
people argue can lead tofeelings of shame, too, which
kind of makes sense in momentswhere they feel like they should
apologize, but their emotionsare really big.
If you're like telling them tosay sorry, then you're like also
kind of like pointing the fingerand like saying you did
something wrong and maybe that'snot the moment to put that
(23:16):
feeling on them.
Lindsay (23:17):
so I kind of get that.
I'm trying to like reflect on mylife and I don't even remember
when in my childhood was Itaught that and I don't know if
it was like in school.
Yeah, I was like in school.
I mean, I'm sure social setting.
Yeah, I'm sure you learn it.
(23:38):
This is all very interesting.
Like, was that appropriate?
Should I have learned earlier?
I don't know.
Yeah,
Jordan (23:42):
it's, it's kind of crazy when you get into it.
It's very like layered.
=Yeah, totally.
Lindsay (23:48):
I guess I like, I could see myself, like if I made the
mistake, I would probably just.
Be the one to example it for herlike mama is sorry mama You
know, yeah, absolutely like issad or mama is overwhelmed Mama
is sorry for that.
Like I think it'd probably comeout like if you did something
(24:08):
Yeah, like if I like herfeelings raised my voice for a
shirt or Yeah, you know This
Jordan (24:16):
is something that this is something that they tell you
to do so you're totally on theright track.
Okay.
Okay.
So I read an article, In theAtlantic, and I'll link to that
in the show notes, that talksabout a psychologist who's
drawing a distinction betweenpsychological and behavioral
control when parents are takingaction to like, you know, help
guide their kids.
(24:37):
Psychological controlling, likeguilting, shaming, or being
manipulative with your kid, thatis really damaging and can lead
to problems.
In your kids behaviors andpsyche into the future, but
behavioral control, like having,you know, boundaries around this
is what we do in this context,or this is what we do in this
context.
(24:57):
And just kind of making it likea habit isn't necessarily
damaging as long as you're notdoing it in a way that is like
manipulative or too intensepsychologically for your kid.
And that's kind of where shedraws the line.
Lindsay (25:10):
Yeah, like I could see, me showcasing how to, on the
apology to my daughter, wouldteach her a proper way of how to
apologize, and that can helpclose this.
Right, or even
Jordan (25:21):
just giving her like a little nudge, and not
necessarily being like, you, youdid something wrong, you need to
apologize, like, hey, can yousay I'm sorry?
Lindsay (25:29):
yeah, this is a whole learning experience for me as a
parent.
Like teaching her how to saysorry, but like doing it,
broadcasting it to her.
Yeah,
Jordan (25:37):
like being the example.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
So my initial, like, knee jerkreactions to these ideas, that
you, like, should absolutely notforce your kid to apologize,
are, first of all, kids don'thave, like, the whole, the whole
premise is, like, that, thatkids aren't gonna actually feel
empathy, they're just doing.
(25:57):
Like a blanket apology, right?
That doesn't mean anything.
But kids this age, like my kid'sage, she's basically two, kids
this age don't have thecapacity, like the brain
capacity, to actually, like,feel, truly feel empathy.
I'm gonna say process all
Lindsay (26:11):
of that.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Jordan (26:13):
so I guess that's a fact that could, like, push you in
either direction for thisargument, but it is definitely
something to keep in mind.
Also, when kids are in asituation where they need to
apologize, like the one I, theexample I gave with my kid when
she, like, smacked me in theeye.
If she had done that to someoneelse, I would certainly want her
to feel like she, you know,would apologize to them.
That's like our sociallyaccepted norm, right?
(26:34):
Um, but she was having such bigfeelings and needing some kind
of reassurance.
Yes.
She was overwhelmed because shecould tell she did something
wrong and she's not quite ready,like mentally, to to process
that quickly.
So
Lindsay (26:46):
like hugging and like, Yeah.
Comfort.
Jordan (26:48):
So me being like, you need to now do something, she,
she's not like the right timefor her to learn that skill,
right?
Like she, what she needs is forher feelings to be like
recognized and taken care of byme, the older person who has
like a head on my shoulders,right?
So that's another thing I think.
(27:09):
And then also like, there'sanother little thing that is
feels sort of related where Itell my kid to say thank you,
right?
And like no one says that'swrong to teach your kid to say
thank you.
Um, and it's another one ofthose things where in these
social contexts, like someonedoes something nice for your kid
and you say, you say, Oh, canyou say thank you?
And then they say, thank you.
And it helps the other adultfeel seen and appreciated.
(27:31):
And it's cute when the kid doesit.
And she does it spontaneously.
Now, like I'll hand her like alittle piece of fruit or
something and she'll go, Thanks.
Like, yeah.
And it's so cute.
She, and maybe she doesn't fullyunderstand gratitude as a two
year old.
But then, is there somethingwrong with instilling this
little habit?
Lindsay (27:50):
Right?
Gosh, that's that's sointeresting.
Jordan (27:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I kind of am just like,well, you know, maybe, maybe
saying I'm sorry, if you justnudge them gently to say I'm
sorry, is a good thing.
It's no more harmful thangetting them to say, thank you.
It's just like something thatthey will eventually learn a
deeper meaning of as they gothrough life, which is kind of
true of basically everything.
Lindsay (28:13):
little ones are so observant.
And then us just being theexample, I think, does a huge
part for them.
Definitely.
Jordan (28:21):
Yeah, and I think that that's also a big part of the
argument that people make infavor of not forcing your kid.,
there's a, there's a, There's anInstagram account called big
little feelings and one of theirco founders.
Her name's Dina Margolin.
She's a child therapist Sheargues that instructing a kid to
say sorry doesn't teach them tofeel empathy.
Like I said, they don't reallyfeel empathy anyway Mm hmm, and
(28:43):
there are better ways to teachyour kid empathy And like you
said, the best one is by exampleSo when you do something that
like upsets your child model howyou want them to act.
And eventually that's thebehavior that will stick.
so the, the main recommendationhere is to like name the harm,
describe how it affected theother person.
This is probably really good forour adult lives too.
Yes.
(29:03):
Yeah.
I don't think adults are thatgood at apologizing.
We talk a lot
Lindsay (29:07):
about in couples therapy, um, about how we feel.
Yeah.
How does everything make youfeel?
Cause we don't, we weren'treally taught to.
Say our feelings much yeah inour lives.
Yeah, and all of a sudden we'rein this relationship, and we
need to express how we feel Allthe time.
We're practicing that, but it'sa skill.
Jordan (29:28):
Yes.
It's a
Lindsay (29:29):
whole skill, but like, yeah, go on.
Yeah, totally.
Jordan (29:31):
So name the thing that hurt the other person, describe
how it affected them andvalidate their feelings and then
make some kind of commitment.
This is something I wouldn'thave done personally, like I
thought to do, but make somekind of commitment to your child
to not engage in that behavior.
In the future.
So obviously like if this issomething like you have to put
them to bed and they're mad atyou like, yeah, exactly the time
(29:52):
you're going to demonstratethis, but we will all mess up as
parents.
Yeah.
And I don't doubt that therewill be plenty of opportunities
for me to model this kind of anapology.
And it's something that like inthe moment.
If I need to apologize forsomething to my kid, I'm
probably feeling emotionallyworked up too.
Yeah.
And that's something that like,yeah, you got, like, might not
(30:12):
just come naturally even to me.
I don't know how that's gonnafeel.
You know what I mean?
So it's good to have a plan forsomething that you maybe would
feel emotional about in thefuture, I think will help you
just to like, do the thing thatyou want to do instead of acting
just based on your emotions.
Lindsay (30:26):
So like if, if my daughter is pulling on my hair
hardcore or if she, you know, isrough or whatever with play, My
knee jerk response to her isgentle to mama or gentle to our
dog, gentle to dad, that like,then she recognized, she
recognizes that.
(30:46):
Yeah.
And that feels like a
Jordan (30:48):
step one sort of level understanding for you to teach
her like.
There is a way to treat otherpeople.
Yeah, sure.
Which is nice.
Yeah, totally.
She went ahead and swung atAndrew the other day, Oh no.
And he
Lindsay (31:02):
did the whole like put his head down and like was like,
that hurt dad.
You know, like, yeah.
And she looked so sad.
Looked at him and she like, youcould tell she was trying to
figure out the emotion.
What she just did to him.
And she like, you know, crinkledher eyebrows and she was like,
what just happened?
And then all of a sudden shelost it.
(31:23):
Oh no.
She was so sad to see dad hurt.
Yeah.
She, and it broke his heartbecause he's, I I would never do
that again to her.
Yeah.
it's so weird when that momentcomes, comes up for the first
time, her heart, oh man, that'sso sad.
She baw the ball.
The ball.
But there was a lot of hugginggoing on.
Yeah.
And like, we're, you know.
Just, you know, soothing thesituation.
(31:46):
But it was very interesting tosee her reaction.
Like that was the first time shehad ever been that sad.
Seeing myself or Andrew
Jordan (31:55):
like hurt.
Oh, that's so sweet.
I think we all have a lot to,this is sort of separate point,
but I think we all have a lot tolearn from the way kids respond
to big emotional events.
Like if, if I do something thatmakes my daughter upset, she
wants to hug me.
Yeah.
Which is, it feels, when I applythat same logic to my adult
relationships, I'm like, that isnot how we respond as adults.
(32:18):
Like when Adrian pisses me off,I don't want to hug him.
But what if I did?
It would probably make ourconflicts a lot easier.
You know what I mean?
Like it would show him like, noI want you to love me.
I don't want you to piss me off.
We're really
Lindsay (32:32):
raising a whole generation of children right
now.
Dude, it's a lot of work.
It's a lot.
It's a lot of
Jordan (32:37):
work! Alright, so then the uh, one last thing I want to
make a point of is people whoargue against forcing apologies
also say, and I definitely agreewith this one, um, that it's
important to have conversationswith your kid and sometimes Like
conversations separate from theincident and sometimes in
private, not in front of thepeople who were involved in the,
like, you know, the harm doing,
Lindsay (32:57):
that could teach empathy.
Yes,
Jordan (32:58):
absolutely.
Yeah.
And then just like go throughthe scenario with them and yeah,
talk about, you know, how tomake amends and, and everything
like that.
On the pro side of the fence.
Um, I found an article onpsychology today, uh, That gave
examples of research supportingthe idea that kids, like even
little kids, who are on thereceiving end of an apology
respond, Pretty well to theapology like they're more likely
(33:21):
to trust the person apologizingand feel more positive emotions
after hearing the apology and itdoesn't really matter in those
contexts whether the apology wasforced by the parent or
caregiver or If it wasspontaneous the age that that
started to matter was like sevento nine years old So for tiny
kids, it might actually help ifyou if you tell your kid to
(33:44):
apologize You know, that's thiscould be interesting for play
dates Totally interesting forplaydates.
Because, like, Because right
Lindsay (33:51):
now they're learning how to share.
Jordan (33:52):
Totally.
And it's not always clean.
No.
No.
Yeah, yeah.
So it'll be interesting, yeah,it's an interesting thing to
kind of play around with, forsure.
Yeah.
Another thing that thatPsychology Today article, and
I'll again link to that in theshow notes, said that both types
of apologies, forced orspontaneous, help to repair the
relationship, but neither typehelps the victim feel better as
(34:14):
much as making amends does.
And I'm like, okay, well whatdoes that look like
specifically?
Um, so examples of making amendswould be like sharing a toy
after, like if my kid took one,took a toy from your kid, like
her sharing it, her seeing thatyour kid's pissed and then
sharing, sharing it with them.
Is an example of making amends,or like if she were to smack
your kid.
(34:35):
I hope my kid doesn't do allthese things, but she probably
will at some point.
If she were to like smack yourkid and then saw that she was
hurt and then gave her like ahug.
Yeah.
Or if you know, you knocksomething over of someone else's
and then they help them torebuild it.
Yeah.
So like little gestures ofkindness that, that show like
that they recognize that, thatthat thing they did wasn't quite
(34:56):
right.
That is the thing that helps torebuild the relationship.
and the victim's feelings betterthan anything else.
And, is a good way to teachyour, also teach your kid
empathy, I think.
Like, uh, Oh, you, you knockedthat over and it made that kid
feel sad.
Let's help them build it backup.
Yes.
it's just another way we canmodel.
(35:17):
Yeah.
you know, interpersonalrelationship wins.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So my take at the end of theday, my little hot take is it
kind of feels the same as like,I don't know if when you got
into baby led weaning, you werelike, what the heck?
Cause there, it seems like onone side of the argument,
everyone's like, Pro purees andon the other side of the
(35:38):
argument.
Everyone's like anti purees.
Yeah, but can I just give my kidpurees and yeah So we were like
Lindsay (35:46):
making purees chunkier and chunkier
Jordan (35:48):
Totally, but like yeah, and the point is like if you're
being a conscious parent andyou're not psychologically, you
know manipulative or being toointense with your kids feelings
and You're like being consciousof their feelings and validating
them Um And I think it's,there's no harm in gently
nudging them into an apologywhile they're young, just so
(36:11):
that they understand this is thecontext in which you apologize.
Definitely going to come up inthe future.
And it's probably going to bewhat they do at school too.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
It feels like one of thosethings that got like totally,
Yeah, this was a fantastictrending topic.
But that is interesting to thinkabout.
So cool.
Lindsay (36:31):
Yeah.
It's this, this is the kind ofstuff that I like to chat about
because, yeah, I wouldn't havehad this conversation and I
don't think I would, I probablywould have been like when the
time came and I probably wouldhave been like you, like, wait,
is now the time?
Yeah.
Or did she need to learn that inschool?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Very cool.
I love talking about this kindof stuff.
It's fun.
Jordan (36:51):
Yeah.
So I think I will still saylike, Hey, can you say I'm
sorry?
Yeah.
Maybe not quite yet, butdefinitely eventually.
Yeah.
And model the behavior and haveconversations with them about
how people feel.
I think it'll all work out inthe end.
That's what I think.
I like it.
I like the way you think.
Lindsay (37:10):
Great.
That was awesome.
Yeah.
Hell yeah.
Cool.
wrap it up.
Wrap it up with back to the maintopic.
Sure.
Out and about.
Full circle.
Yo, I can't recommend Crocsenough.
Crocs! Crocs! Man, like Croc,you know, we all know what Crocs
are the brand.
(37:31):
There's off brands, go get theoff brand if you don't have the
funds or the color or the sizethat you want in a regular brand
of Crocs.
Jordan (37:40):
The critical pieces are
Lindsay (37:41):
washability, wettability, spray off with a
hose, easy to put on, easy totake off.
My child knows how to put on herCrocs so easily.
Oh, does she really?
That's so cute.
Jordan (37:54):
With the strap on the back and everything, dang, I
haven't even tried to teach mykid that.
Lindsay (37:59):
Yeah, she picked it up.
She got actually put on her rainboots really well first.
Oh, funky.
That was really cool.
Yeah.
Right toe and every Really?
Right foot and everything.
Impressive.
Yeah, there was like maybe likea handful of times in the
beginning that was wrong foot,but she figured out fast and
then those crocs were like on.
Yeah.
Cute.
Um, but yeah, it's, they're sogreat.
(38:19):
They're easy to wash.
They're like, Yeah.
Jordan (38:22):
They're the best kid's shoe ever.
They're actually, they're, andI've been wearing only Crocs
throughout this pregnancy.
Yes.
Good adult shoes.
Yeah, they are.
Lindsay (38:31):
She doesn't slip in her kiddie pool.
She doesn't slip out and aboutanywhere.
but yeah, these Crocs, they can
Jordan (38:37):
run in them.
My kid runs quick in them andI'm always like,
Lindsay (38:40):
well, be careful on the sidewalk, but she hasn't
Jordan (38:43):
eaten shit yet.
Lindsay (38:44):
Yeah.
We are definitely wearing Crocsin our household and Man,
they're just like the best kid,toddler shoe ever.
Jordan (38:54):
I feel like that's not gonna change.
Like as my kid grows, I feellike Crocs are gonna always be.
Lindsay (38:59):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I mean, like you, you're wearingCrocs.
I'm wearing Crocs still.
Yeah.
All the funky designs and colorsare out there.
I think their stock went crazyamazing over COVID.
Interesting.
People were camping andgardening way more.
And I guess that's true.
I'm not caring about how
Jordan (39:18):
they look.
Lindsay (39:22):
I love that.
Yeah.
Not that Crocs aren't beautiful.
I'm not sure if I'm not sure ifI'm on the platform train yet.
They have like platforms now.
I don't know if I'm there yet.
I don't know if I could do that.
But Crocs in general areamazing.
Jordan (39:37):
Yeah, that's a good recommendation.
If you're getting them as an
Lindsay (39:39):
adult, get a size up so that you can wear, like, your
socks with them.
Jordan (39:43):
Yeah, it is nice to wear socks with them, especially when
it's like hot.
Yeah.
Don't want sweaty feet andcracks.
Yeah, no.
But then you can always justhose them off when they do get
sweaty.
Lindsay (39:52):
Yes! I don't know, they're the best.
They float.
They float
Jordan (39:56):
in the water.
I never even thought of thatbenefit.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Lindsay (40:00):
Anyways, on and on and on about crocs and I'm
recommending those on thisepisode.
Jordan (40:06):
I love that for everyone.
Yeah.
Check them out guys if you don'talready have 10 pairs at home.
Thank you so much for joiningus, everybody.
Yeah.
Um, check us out atwehavekidpodcast on Instagram.
Lindsay (40:19):
Yep.
Our website.
Hit subscribe if you'd like.
Jordan (40:22):
Yeah.
Our website iswehavekidspodcast.
com.
Mm hmm.
And, yeah, like, subscribe,review if you feel like it.
We are.
Yeah.
That'd be cool.
Let's be your mom.
We want to be mom
Lindsay (40:34):
friends.
Yeah.
Let's be mom friends.
Parent friends or mom friends.
Yes.
Jordan (40:39):
Well, we're moms, so we can be mom friends to anybody.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
Sweet.
Thanks so much.
We will talk to y'all soon.
Chit chat later.
Bye.
Bye.
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