April 22, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode, Robin delves into the hazy details surrounding what transpired at a Los Angeles bungalow on October 21st, 2003, that resulted in Elliott Smith receiving two stab wounds to the heart and passing away shortly thereafter.
She will examine the possibility of foul play, a theory that many of his friends, some family, and fans, still believe to be plausible today.
What do you think happened? Make sure to leave a comment on the episode's Instagram post so that your opinion can be read in a future episode.
------------------------------------------
.Email us and share your personal story: info@wesawthedevil.com
Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.com
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Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcast
Robin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstd
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Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.
She will examine the possibility of foul play, a theory that many of his friends, some family, and fans, still believe to be plausible today.
What do you think happened? Make sure to leave a comment on the episode's Instagram post so that your opinion can be read in a future episode.
------------------------------------------
.Email us and share your personal story: info@wesawthedevil.com
Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.com
Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevil
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcast
Robin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstd
Discord: https://discord.gg/gDevRryX
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Sunny spaces, smiling faces, happyplaces. But every sunny space holds a
shadow. Behind every smile, oursharp teeth, and every happy place has
something sinister lurking just below the surface. Welcome to We Saw the Devil,
the podcast diving deep into the chillingrealms of true crime. Join your host
(00:26):
Robin as she unravels mysteries that haveleft investigators baffled and armchair sleuths obsessed.
Be forewarned, dear listener, WeSaw the Devil is not for the faint
of heart. Our unflinching exploration willtake you to the darkest corners of the
psyche and through the unimaginable depths ofhuman darkness to unearth stark secrets. To
(00:47):
the harsh light of day. Nothingwill be left untouched. Are you ready?
Are you sure? We Saw theDevil? Hello everyone, when you
are listening to We Saw the Devil. This is Robyn and I am here
with part two of Between the Bars, the controversy of Elliott Smith's alleged suicide.
(01:10):
Again, this is a case thatI've wanted to cover for years now.
Elliott Smith is one of the greatmusical loves of my life. Whether
it's guitar, his lyricism, whatever, and back in two thousand and three,
he tragically passed in very wild andquite suspicious circumstances, and his fan
(01:32):
base has been pretty split, Iwould say, since then as to what
exactly transpired that afternoon in October oftwo thousand and three, And this is
always something that has fascinated me aswell. So so in this episode,
I'm going to cover what happened onOctober twenty first of two thousand and three.
(01:52):
We're going to get into the medicalexaminer report, the autopsy, the
toxicology results, and try to puttogether a full picture and show both sides
of the argument. But before Iget into that, even before we get
housekeeping out of the way, Iwant to start out the episode with a
couple of corrections. Y'all know,I pride myself on my research, and
(02:15):
especially when it comes to Elliott Smith, There's very little that I would ever
get wrong. But unfortunately, becausethis is a true crime podcast and the
nature of it, I say alot of the same phrases over and over
again, and sometimes I find myselfon autopilot and I can be reading something
that I wrote but say something completelydifferently. I should probably get that checked
(02:38):
out. But in the last episode, I said Elliott's death was officially ruled
a suicide. That is not thecase, and I knew that. That's
one of the reasons why I findit so fascinating. But I say that
phrase so much his death was officiallyruled a suicide or officially ruled a homicide
by X Y or Z. Isay that phrase so much much that it
(03:00):
just kind of found its way intothe script automatically. But no, his
death was determined to be inconclusive bythe corner. I know it's confusing because
it's that's something we're going to talkabout in this episode because of who he
was, what he wrote about,what he sounded like, his own personal
issues and demons that he was fighting, and the police coming out immediately after,
(03:23):
immediately jumping the gun and kind ofdeclaring it a suicide before the toxicology
or the autopsy had even taken place. That kind of became the official narrative
for most people. But no,again, his death was determined to be
inconclusive by the corner. This istechnically still an open case and the LAPD
(03:43):
is still accepting information and looking forinformation on it. Although it's not actively
necessarily being worked. Secondly, whendescribing the day of his death, I
mentioned night, and again another autopilotmoment. Like ninety nine percent of crimes
that we discussed on this podcast happenedat night, so the night of their
death is something that I consistently saymultiple times, generally per episode. So
(04:06):
again another autopilot moment. I meantdaytime as perish in the middle of the
day, and I am sorry aboutthat. I just wanted to make sure
that those corrections were made before weget into this one. But let's go
ahead and get the housekeeping out ofthe way. As I mentioned in the
previous episode, the new website isa work in progress, so currently there
(04:28):
is no website, so please donot hesitate to email at info at wesawthedevil
dot com. I've received a handfulof emails and messages surrounding the website being
down. Yes, I know,I am sorry for any inconvenience there.
It will be back shortly better thanever. Iris and I were going to
record on the Chad day Bell caseand do an update on that last week.
(04:48):
I got a little bit busy andso I suggested we record Tuesday tomorrow
and then we can do a weekand a half catch up. But I'm
very excited to do that. Haven'tforgotten about it. It is coming.
We are just going to be recordingtomorrow instead. After that, I'm going
to be revisiting the Moscow four casewith Brian Coberger. His alibi was released
(05:10):
over the last week and it's interesting, to say the least, So I
would like to talk about that,why it's important, how it's potentially going
to impact his defense, as wellas the reaction from the Gonzalvez family,
which is very, very colorful.Other than that, if you're not following
the show on social media, makesure you do so. On Instagram,
you can follow it. We sawthe double podcast. If you want to
(05:30):
follow me the food that I make, the animals that I have, and
the music that I like, youcan do that on Robin Underscore WSTV.
Alrighty, and let's go ahead andget into it. One thing that I
wanted to point out, and Idiscussed this moment in the previous episode,
was in early two thousand and threewhen Elliott was playing and some guy in
the audience said, grow a backbone, and I didn't really think much of
(05:54):
it after that, And then Iwas doom scrolling the other day and it
came across a clip of Joe Roganinterviewing one of his friends and the guy
was like, I was having sucha downtime, and Joe, you were
such a good friend. Like wewere driving in my car and I was
listening to Elliott Smith and you werelike, what the fuck is this shit?
Are you okay? And it gotme thinking just how much just Elliot
(06:20):
Smith as a whole and his sound, how he is a person, was
type cast. Everyone just saw himas kind of like the sad sack heroin
Addict, and that's not the totalityof what Elliot Smith was. And so
I thought again about that moment fromthat show where the guy in the audience
(06:40):
was like, grew a backbone.And I actually found that clip on YouTube
and I'm going to play it now. Thank you, Thank you much.
(07:00):
Those two people were nice enough tocome up and see them all, right,
go one left, Get a wetbackbone? What it's like, get
(07:23):
a backbone? What the fucking I'mplaying? Not? Almost nothing I could
tell you about a dream I hadlast night. Otherwise I can't be more
per fucking for real. You knowwhat I mean, honestly, get it
back, Okay, I'll try.I'm not trying to pick on you.
(07:46):
Maybe I didn't understand what you're saying. Whatever, And I'm playing a lot
of the dark songs to night yourself. Sorry, I don't you know,
it doesn't matter to me whether thealready to talk about. It's kind of
(08:07):
funny though I'm playing about going.I'm very healthy now, so don't get
bummed out. Everybody's second home,always trying to get me alone, E
(08:33):
easy way. I think this momentin particular tells you everything you need to
know about Elliott Smith. He wastalented beyond belief. Obviously, you know
I played clips. His lyricism isgreat, but as a person, he
was so shy and also really kind. He really could be the world sweetest
(08:56):
old angel baby. And I thinkthat that clip, this kind of encapsulates
everything that Elliot pretty much was.I ended the last episode in two thousand
and three with Elliott being clean andliving with his girlfriend, fellow musician Jennifer
Chieva. And there's a common misconceptionby many that he was just some depressed
(09:16):
drug fiend and junkie who got intoa fight with Jennifer and killed himself in
a drug fueled menia. And ifthere's anything that you glean from this these
episodes, let it be this.Elliot had attended rehab and successfully kicked heroin
other prescription drugs as well as alcohol. He was only on his prescribed medications.
(09:37):
In taking just the prescribed amounts,he given up red meat, refined
sugar, and was frequently seen ata local health food store buying food and
supplements. He started working on hisnext album the week before his death.
He reached out to a producer thathe hadn't even spoken to in almost a
year and asked him to work onhis next album with him. But first,
(09:58):
let's talk a little little bit aboutJennifer Chiba. Jennifer graduated from Loyola
Marymount University with the master's in ClinicalArt Therapy. She claims that she has
more than fifteen years of experience init, and she's also a licensed marriage
and family therapist, getting her licensefirst in nineteen ninety five. If you
(10:18):
want to look online and just literallyjust look up at Jennifer Chiba, how
about we google that right now,Jennifer Chiba therapy. Very first thing that
comes up is ikei MA show therapyand you can see she is currently open
if you want to find a therapist. She does online and virtual therapy.
(10:39):
You can find her site right there. But she also worked as an art
therapist at Five Acres, which islocated in southern California, and it's basically
a school for troubled children, childrenthat were abused, delayed, you know,
in trouble whatever. After Elliott gotclean and out of rehab, he
ended up moving in with her intothe house on Le Moyne Street in Los
(11:00):
Angeles, and she became a sortof force in his life. She ended
up being super protective, controlling Imean protective, i e. Controlling of
him, who he could talk,who could come back and talk to him.
She controlled the backstage entirely. Byall accounts, she separated and kind
of isolated him away from his friends, both professional and personal. His friends
(11:24):
could see her taking control and theywere concerned, especially since Elliott had allegedly
told one of his producer friends thatJennifer had chased him around with a knife
the year before. Also again,she played bass in a local LA band
called the Warlocks, and then shealso was in a couple other bands but
she was working on a single whenwith her newer band when Elliott died.
(11:46):
And also importantly, which I'm goingto touch on in this episode as well,
she did previously date before Elliott Weezerfrontman Rivers Cuomo. They dated for
I believe three years and again,Weezer's biggest album was pretty much and totally
inspired by her. A lot ofthe songs are about her. That was
(12:07):
a very serious relationship if you askaround the LA music scene. And here's
where I want to shout out abook. There's a book called A question
Mark, an Investigation into the MysteriousDeath of Elliott Smith, and it's by
Alison Kimu and you can get iton Kendle. I got it, I
think for four nine nine or fiveninety nine. You can also for my
(12:28):
Kendle. You can also buy apaperback copy of it as well. But
it is the most incredibly well researchedbook I've seen on this. There are
several books out there. Probably theother most well known one is Torment Saint,
The Life of Elliott Smith. Thatone's written by William Todd Schultz.
But it doesn't really matter who it'swritten by when it comes to Jennifer Chiba,
(12:52):
her reputation precedes her. She prettymuch to everyone is no as being
an opportunist, manipulative, suicidal herself. Duy lost her license, bad fate,
liar, cheater, abusive. Multiplepeople have allegedly said that she was
(13:16):
obsessed with knives and violence. Acouple people said that she actually gave off
traits of histrionic personality disorder, whichwoo that is a doozy if you are
unfamiliar. All I have to sayabout that is Courtney Love has historyonic personality
disorder. If that tells you anything, Just the constant need for attention and
(13:37):
for being the front and center,and typically behavior that knows no bounds in
how to obtain that attention. SoTuesday, October twenty first, two thousand
and three, here's the gist ofwhat happened according to Jennifer Cheeba, as
she was the sole witness and personpresent during this time. And then we're
going to go through the official reportssometimes I'm likely around noon, Jennifer and
(14:01):
Elliott were at their le Moyne Streetbungalow in the Echo Park section of LA.
An argument broke out because Jennifer againshe had a dy and she lost
her license needed a ride to hertherapy appointment, And I see a lot
of people online shaming her for beinga therapist who goes to therapy. As
(14:22):
someone who has a lot of friendswho are a therapists, they're also in
therapy, like they also have theirown therapists. So it's a weird thing
to get upset over, I think, but apparently everybody is. But they
got into a fight. Unsure ifElliott didn't want to take her or what,
but Jennifer needed a ride. Theygot into a fight over it.
(14:43):
It got heated. Jennifer said shewent into the bathroom and locked herself in
there. She says she was inthere for about five minutes, and there
are some reports that she took ashower, that she went took a five
minute shower and came out, butshe's changed her story multiple times. She
claims at first, at least thatshe heard a scream. She opened the
(15:03):
door and saw Elliott facing away fromher. He's yelling frantic running around.
Blood is splattering everywhere, and Elliottstarts running towards the balcony. While Jennifer
gets to him, she sees thathe has a knife, sticking out of
his chest. She pulls the knifeout of his chest and begins as he
(15:24):
collapses, then begins to give himCPR. Now, for those of you
who are CPR certified, let thatsink in for a moment. This woman,
who worked with children had several instancesand dates of CPR certification, pulled
a butcher knife out of the chestof her boyfriend and then performed CPR.
(15:50):
Most people are aware that if someoneis impaled by something, you don't remove
it. If you have a knifestuck in you, you don't remove it.
She did the exact opposite. Sheremoved the knife, blood apparently was
going everywhere, and then she performedCPR, which also didn't help. She
didn't call nine one one immediately.She said that she had some phone problems,
(16:12):
like her cell phone wasn't charged orworking, and there's some chatter that
she said that their landline wasn't workingeither, So there was a delay in
a call to nine one one,which did end up happening. At twelve
eighteen pm. LAFD medics came tothe home and transported Elliott to the hospital,
where he was pronounced dead just twentyminutes later. Jennifer did not accompany
(16:36):
Elliott in that original ambulance. Meanwhile, as Elliott was being transported, investigators
arrived at the home and interviewed JenniferCheeba. She immediately tells the police,
Oh, well, he's a heroinaddict and a crack addict, and he's
been suicidal for years and he's mademultiple attempts. And she just really told
police this is a straight up suicide. He killed himself, and then looks
(17:00):
down at the kitchen table where they'reinvestigating her, like literally near the scene
of the crime, whe there's bloodeverywhere, and notices a post it note
and was basically like, wow,here's a suicide note. Can you believe
that? And then tells the policeand alerts them to it. The suicide
note said I'm so sorry, loveElliot, God forgive me. Not only
(17:22):
that, but she went into theirbedroom got Elliott's private journal had ripped out
a handful of pages that had passageswhere Elliott said he wanted to kill himself
and gave it to police. Nowlet me set the stage here for you.
Imagine that you were taking a facevalue. Imagine that you're in the
(17:44):
bathroom, you hear a scream,you open the door. You see a
knife, like an eight inch butcherknife lodged all the way into the handle
in your boyfriend's chest. You chasehim, you pull a knife out,
he collapses, You give him CPR. That wound is just going the LAFD,
(18:07):
you know, the fire department.The medics arrive, and what do
you do? But you decided togo get journals like his private diary,
find the pages where he committed todescribed he wanted to commit suicide, rip
those out for the police, andthen you kind of sit there and wait.
The police declared it a suicide almostimmediately before the corner and toxicology exams
(18:30):
were even complete, and the statementfrom police got published in the media and
made its way into the mainstream,becoming the narrative. It became the immediate
story the day it happened. Afterthe police leave, Elliott's old drummer comes
over and helps Jennifer Chieva mop upElliot's blood, And there's also an allegation
(18:52):
that they were having a secret relationship. No one actually knows, but what
happened after that was equally suspicious.Three days after he died, Jennifer Cheeba
and you know her likely boyfriend thatshe was likely cheating on, Elliott with
allegedly actually ended up going to hisnew Monkey studio, his recording studio that
he had founded, and stole alot of equipment before anybody else could go
(19:15):
there and process and go through things. And immediately after that, Jennifer Chiba
then boarded a plane for Hong Kongand it had a layover in Boston,
and she ended up staying in Bostonfor a little while, and River's coomo
of Weezer was the one who boughther that one way ticket to Hong Kong.
(19:37):
Again, River's coomo of Weezer wasthe one who bought Jennifer Chiba a
one way ticket to Hong Kong.After realizing that she wasn't going to be
prosecuted for anything and that she wasn'tan official suspect, she did finally return
and go back to Los Angeles.And I'm going to let you come to
your own conclusion on that. Butdoes that sound like a normal reaction from
(20:00):
a girl whose boyfriend just committed suicide? But I'm going to go ahead and
read the witness statement. The Countyof Los Angeles Department of Corner Investigator's narrative
as it were. This is theofficial narrative put together by the Coroner's Department,
using sources like Detective King from theLAPD who interviewed Jennifer Chiba, the
medical record, Jennifer Chiba's interview publicist, as well as a psychiatrist. So
(20:26):
the very first piece says investigation.On ten twenty one, two thousand and
three, at eleven fifty five pm, Detective King of the LAPD placed a
call to this office reporting the stabbingdeath of an adult male. The mode
of death was believed to be apossible suicide versus homicide. The death occurred
at a hospital facility on ten twentyone three at one thirty six pm,
(20:47):
and the descendant was transported to FSCon ten twenty two oh three at eleven
thirty am. It gives a locationeighteen fifty seven and a half Lemoyne Street,
Los Angeles. Witness statement. DetectiveKing stated that on ten twenty one
three, at twelve eighteen PM,a nine to one one call was placed
requesting medical assistance at the above injurylocation. LAFD paramedics arrived on scene and
(21:12):
transported the descendent to the hospital emergencyroom. Where he was admitted with two
stab wounds to the chest. Hewas pronounced shortly after arrival. Police officers
and detectives learned that the decedent livedwith his girlfriend, Jennifer, and that
on the afternoon of ten twenty oneoh three, they were having an argument.
Jennifer told police that she locked herselfin the bathroom during this argument,
(21:34):
and when she came out of thebathroom, she found the descendent with a
knife in his chest. She pulledthe knife out of his chest and called
nine one one. Detectives were ableto recover a suicide note, a journal
writing, and the knife used inthe stabbing from the scene. No further
pertinent information is available at this time. Detectives believe that this death is possibly
(21:57):
suspicious. However, tanuver the circumstancesare unclear at this time. Medical records
indicate that on ten twenty one othree, at one ten pm, the
descedent was admitted to the above hospitalemergency room with two stab wounds to the
chest. He was diagnosed with twolacerations to the heart, which were surgically
(22:17):
repaired. Despite medical intervention. Thedescendent coded and was pronounced by doctor Kimbrel
at one thirty six PM. Nofurther information is available. Jennifer stated that
she has known the descendent for fouryears and has been dating him for over
one year. She and the descedentwere living together at the above injury address.
On the afternoon of ten twenty oneoh three, she and the decedent
(22:41):
were having an argument and during theargument, Jennifer locked herself in the bathroom.
While she was in the bathroom,she heard the descendent scream, and
she came out and found the descendentstanding with his back to her. When
he turned around, Jennifer saw aknife sticking out of his chest. The
descendent was standing up, conscious andgasping for bread. Jennifer pulled the knife
(23:02):
out of the descendent's chest and sawtwo cuts on his chest. At this
time, the descendent walked away,and Jennifer followed him to where he collapsed.
She called nine one one immediately andperformed citizen CPR in first aid with
operator assistance until paramedics arrived. Oncethe deccedent was taken to the hospital,
police officers arrived and questioned Jennifer aboutthis incident. During this questioning, she
(23:26):
was seated at the kitchen table andnoted for the first time a post it
note that appeared to be a suicidenote left by the descendent. Jennifer recognized
the handwriting on the note as thatof the descendent and had not seen the
note before that moment. The knifethe deccedent used to stab himself was a
regular kitchen knife that, immediately priorto this incident had been sitting out on
a cutting board in the kitchen.Jennifer further stated the descendent has suffered from
(23:52):
depression all his life. He hada history of multiple narcotics addiction, heroin
and crack and alcohol abuse. Althoughhe had been cleaned for over one year,
he engaged in self mutilating behavior andwould burn himself with cigarettes. He
has a history of one possible suicideattempt but unknown details, time frame,
circumstances, and a consistent history ofverbal suicidal ideations in planning. The descendent
(24:17):
sought treatment for his depression from severalpsychiatrists and was being treated with multiple prescription
drugs. Missus Eker stated that shewas the descedent's publicist and has worked with
him since nineteen ninety five for thepast several years, she and the decedent
have not worked together, and onlyrecently, in the last several months have
they begun to work together again.She does not know if the descendant has
a history of suicide attempts or suicidalideations, but did say that suicide was
(24:42):
quote what he wrote about and thatquote he referenced it in his songs.
No further pertinent of information is available. Multiple attempts to reach doctor Stanton have
been met with negative results. Thenit breaks down the scene description. The
death occurred at the above hospital faciltherefore, no corner personnel responded to the
(25:03):
scene. A copy of the suicidenote was provided to LAPD Detective King.
The note was handwritten on a postit note and stated I'm so sorry,
Love Elliott, God forgive me.The note is not dated now. It's
also very very important to note herethat in this report Elliott's name is spelled
e Llliot. It's misspelled. Andbecause of this, there was a whole
(25:29):
conspiracy theory out there that Elliott didn'twrite the note, that somebody else wrote
the note. You know, hissuicide note was misspelled. There's no way
this is actually a typo in thisreport. Supposedly, even though a copy
of the suicide note has not beenseen or published, Elliott's name was spelled
correctly in the original suicide note.It then goes on to get the evidence
(25:52):
that they collected hair and nail kit, also one black T shirt, and
obviously the body. It then goesinto the body examination. The brown hair,
hazel eyes on, natural teeth,on, shaven face, multiple small
circular scars, And that's what Iwould actually like to discuss and get into.
Elliott was still wearing his clothing,he had a T shirt on when
(26:15):
he decided to commit suicide. Now, I'm not going to ruin the book
or do too much for you,but again I am urging all of you
to check out Alison Camu's book onAmazon. That's a L Y S O
n C A m us. Itis an incredible read and so thoroughly researched
that she breaks down the percentages ofhow common you know suicide is, how
(26:41):
common suicide by knife is to menand women. And why all of that
is important is because you'll come tolearn that there are several aberrations in this
case. It just doesn't make senseand it doesn't follow the methods of suicide
(27:03):
and so forth. A very smallnumber of suicides are done by snapping,
by stabbing, by knife, andself stabbing. Elliott was wearing his clothing.
He was wearing his shirt, andin the very very rare instances where
people decide to unlive themselves by stabbingthemselves, they generally take off their clothing.
(27:25):
If it's going to be an injuryor wound located under what would typically
be covered. A lot of peoplego for the wrists, the arms,
the stomach as well the abdomen,their throat, all of these places where
there's no clothing covering it, it'sopen. Elliott was wearing t shirt and
(27:48):
had to stab himself twice through hisclothing. It's also been widely reported that
there were no hesitation wounds on hischest. He had two lacerations. The
second one was certainly fatal. Thefirst one was listed as potentially fatal.
Almost every single person who dies bystabbing again, whether it's throat, abdomen,
risks, whatever, almost all ofthem, a very very inordinate amount
(28:12):
have hesitation wounds. It doesn't matterhow upset you are, how devastated you
are. People who decide to unlivethemselves that way will start. It's too
painful, they stop. They haveto gather themselves before they make the final
attempt. Elliott didn't really have hesitationwounds. Also, the wounds were vertical.
(28:37):
Now I want you, and thisis a very morbid exercise, I
do apologize. I want you topick up the nearest utensil to you,
whether it's a pen, pencil,your phone, and I want you to
pretend that that is a butcher knifeand you are going to stab yourself in
the heart. Do you see howyour arm kind of twists and curves around.
(28:59):
Apparently Elliott had perfectly vertical wounds inhis chest for someone who was manic
and upset and somehow, in thespan of five minutes wrote a suicide post
it note, ran and grabbed abutcher knife. They were perfectly vertical wounds.
That's kind of a lot of thoughtand mental acrobatics to go through in
order to accomplish that. And talkingabout the other wounds as well, he
(29:23):
had potential defensive wounds on the outsideof each one of his forearms, several
little cuts and lacerations, also acouple on the inside of the palms.
Jennifer, in her interview with thedetective. Detective King said that, oh,
well, Elliot had been a cutter, he was a self mutilator.
He cut himself and burned himself withcigarettes, and that explanation was apparently adequate
(29:48):
enough for the police. Then let'stalk about her saying that he was running
to the balcony and that she wasafraid that he was going to jump off
again. Imagine that you've reached apoint where you want to unlive yourself.
Are you going to stab yourself once, which the first wound was potentially fatal,
stab yourself again, which at thatpoint goes through your sternom and enters
(30:11):
your heart, also causes cartilage damage. And then you, as you can't
breathe as you're spewing blood, yourun across your apartment to the back of
the house to jump up and overa railing to kill yourself that way.
Just think about that for a moment. I don't know about you, but
my answer is probably not if I'mgoing to stab myself twice fatally, I'm
(30:37):
probably going to lay my fat assright down where it happened and just wait
for the final sleep. But inJennifer Chieba's interview with detectives, she said
that he was running and she tookthe knife out and he collapsed. And
then that's when she was slipping andsliding in the blood and she was trying
to give him CPR, which allof that is sus by itself, but
(30:59):
that does not make sense to me. Why would Elliot Smith be running?
Why if he knows that he's probablygoing to die, would he be running.
He wouldn't have the ability to breathe, to scream, to make a
sound, to speak. It justmakes no sense to me. That narrative
(31:21):
just does not make sense. Also, when Jennifer Calmlin won one and she
said that she had performed, youknow, she had been performing CPR on
Elliott. When detectives got there,she did not have any blood on her.
Again, she did not have anyblood on her. Remember in the
Lori Vallo case, how supposedly whenCharles Valow was killed, how Alex said
(31:48):
that he was doing CPR and whatnoton him and saying, yeah, yeah,
but he had no blood on himwhatsoever. And it was very clear
kind of the same deal here.Not only does she not have any blood
on her, but her hair wasfreshly wet. She's wearing clean clothes.
In my mind, that very obviouslymeans that she took a shower directly after
(32:12):
whatever happened, at least after hersupposed CPR that she performed. Why would
you do that if you knew policewere coming again, it makes no sense
to me. When the toxicology reportfinally came back, enlisted clonazepam, adderall
stratera, rimaran, and gabapentin,all very very very low therapeutic doses of
(32:36):
his ADHD anxiety and depression meds.The man was entirely clean from any illegal
substances. And then we have themedical examiner's final report. Now again,
police the day of not even hoursafter his death, police had already basically
publicized that Elliott Smith had finally committedsuicide more or less right MTV, all
(33:00):
the major news outlets reported Elliott Smithhe met suicide before the toxicology or coroner's
reports had even come out, soit became the accepted narrative. Two and
a half months later, on Januarysixth of two thousand and four, the
medical examiner's final report came out,and this is what is said. Witnesses,
(33:22):
detectives King and Carillo were present atthe autopsy opinion. The cause of
death is stab wounds to the chest. Each stab wound is considered fatal per
se since each entered the chest cavity. Additionally, there is a perforating wound
to the heart associated with stab woundnumber two. Toxicology tests revealed no illicit
(33:45):
substances. All medications were therapeutic orsub therapeutic. The mode of death is
undetermined at this time. While hishistory of depression is compatible with suicide and
the location and direction of the stabwound are consistent with self infliction, several
aspects of the circumstances as are knownat this time are atypical of suicide and
(34:08):
raise the possibility of homicide. Theseinclude the absence of hesitation wounds, stabbing
through clothing, and the presence ofsmall, insized wounds on the right arm
and left hand possible defensive wounds.Additionally, the girlfriend's reported removal of the
knife and subsequent refusal to speak withdetectives are all of concern. Since the
(34:32):
complete knowledge of the circumstances surrounding thestabbing is lacking, the mode will remain
undetermined until such time as sufficient additionalinformation becomes available. So again, the
medical Examiner's final report says that itis inconclusive, the mode of death is
(34:52):
undetermined, and Jennifer Chiba did becomeuncooperative with detectives. Even detect of King
and Carrillo had both stated that sheafter the initial interview like she was gone.
She was like, fuck this shit, I am out. I am
gonna steal everything that he has inthe studio. I'm gonna have my boyfriend,
(35:13):
you know, Rivers Cuomo. I'mgonna have my ex boyfriend, Rivers
Cuomo, Aiden Nabette. No,I'm kidding, before I get sued into
oblivion, I am kidding, kidding. I'm gonna have him buy me a
one way ticket to Hong Kong soi can flee the country three days after
he dies, and then I'm chillin Boston for a little bit to make
sure that I'm not on the radar, and then I'll come back eventually.
(35:35):
I mean, that's legitimately what happenedhere, And this medical Examiner's report,
because the narrative had been so established, barely even made a ripple. Pretty
much only the people who followed ElliottSmith really kind of took notice or cared
about it. It just kind ofwent under the radar, but for the
people who were following it. Thereare a lot of different theories out there
(35:59):
as to what happened to Elliott Smith. And if you thought that Jennifer Cheeba
would just fade into oblivion, gooff the grid, hide, you know,
as not to draw attention to herself, you would be sorely mistaken.
She decided to sue Elliot Smith's estateand particularly Marta Greenwald, who was the
(36:21):
petitioner the executor of his estate.Marta Greenwald was his stepmother, So in
essence, she decides to sue ElliottSmith's stepmother over his death. Now we're
going to get into this first lawsuit. I'm going to read this filing.
On July thirtieth, two thousand andfour, Jennifer Chiba sued Marta Greenwald for
(36:44):
breach of oral contract, declaratory relief, and constructive trust. The complaint alleged
that Chiba and Smith entered into anoral agreement in August two thousand and two.
Chiba and Smith allegedly agreed to livetogether, cohabitate, and combine their
efforts and earnings, share equally anyand all property accumulated as a result of
(37:05):
their efforts, whether individual or combined, and hold themselves out to the public
as husband and wife. The complaintclaimed Smith promised to provide for Chiba's quote
financial needs and support for the restof her life in exchange for her domestic
services as his quote homemaker, housekeeper, cook, secretary, bookkeeper, and
financial counselor for going any independent careeropportunities. In a separate paragraph, the
(37:31):
complaint also alleged that Chiba had agreedto be Smith's manager and agent for the
purposes of arranging and booking and schedulinghis appearances for musical performances, and to
carry out the preparation and production ofhis album in exchange for fifteen percent of
the proceeds earned and received. Chibaclaimed that Greenwald breached this agreement by refusing
(37:53):
to pay her for performing her contractedservices. Chiba attached to this complaint a
creditors claim in excess of one milliondollars for the contracted services that she rendered
to Smith for the proceeds from hiscomposition's performances and albums. So to recap
(38:13):
here, Elliott Smith dies suspiciously withtwo stab wounds to the heart. She
goes to his studio and cleans outhis recording equipment. She takes a lot
of his belongings and stuff from theapartment that they shared. She hops on
a one way flight to Hong Kong, has a stayover in Boston for a
little while. Eventually, when it'sdeemed that she's not going to be charged
(38:34):
or prosecuted, she goes back tola Within a week of Elliott's death,
she was already seen being affectionate andhandsy with another guy. She then obtains
counsel to sue Elliott Smith's estate,who is run as the administrator being his
stepmother, and sues her for notgiving her more than a million dollars that
(38:54):
she claims she would was owed basicallyas his girlfriend, but then lists a
bunch of random shit and activities andwhatnot that roles that she supposedly took over
for him. All of this basedon an oral contract that Elliott supposedly made
with her, so a couple thingsin this She claims that she was in
(39:16):
a romantic relationship with Elliott for overthree years. Now we know that's bullshit
because when she was interviewed by detectiveshours not even hours after his death,
she said that they had been ina relationship for less than one year for
about a year. That magically,in her lawsuit that one year tripled into
(39:42):
more than three years. Not onlythat, but in the original lawsuit she
lists separately. She lists basically domesticduties right like cooking, cleaning, housekeeping,
and then sets out and says,you know, talent, manager and
age. Basically manager and agent isa separate paragraph. Well, when that
(40:04):
first lawsuit, she learned very quicklythat pretty much to be considered an agent
you actually have to have a licensefor that. And it was kind of
like an oh shit moment for her. So that's when we get on November
first, she filed her first amendedcomplaint. Two years later, in April
of two thousand and six, shefiled her second amended complaint, the operative
(40:27):
complaint, which basically divided her agreementwith Elliott into two separate parts, the
cohabitation agreements and then the recording managementagreement. So she basically said, here
are two reasons why I'm owed thismoney. Number one, the cohabitation agreement,
which basically consisted of her promise toElliott Smith to be his homemaker,
(40:52):
housekeeper, cook, you know allthat list for going any independent career opportunities,
where basically she said, I willdo all of these things for you
and forego a career of my own. She still claimed that Elliott agreed to
provide for all of her financial needsand support for the rest of her life.
The recording management agreement basically put outher making a promise to Smith to
(41:15):
be his manager and agent for thepurposes of arranging his booking and scheduling his
appearances, and to prepare and producehis albums, and she claims that Elliott
agreed to give her fifteen percent ofthe proceeds. So in that second amended
complaint, she admits that she hadnot and was not licensed as a talent
agency and was unaware that she evenneeded a license. And she also conceded
(41:39):
that the fact that she did nothave a talent agency license made that recording
management agreement void and unenforceable, soshe lost on that count. So with
this second amendment, she basically saysadmits, Okay, I can't fight this.
You're right, I didn't have alicense, So I'm going to put
(42:00):
all my eggs in the basket ofthe cohabitation agreement. I'm not going to
get into the nitty gritty of thecase, but just suffice it to say
she lost, and Jennifer Chiba wasnot about to lose. She was very
upset with that. So what doesshe decide to do? She decides to
sue her own fucking attorneys. Shesues Ron Gold and she accuses him of
(42:22):
negligence, basically saying, my casewas so air tight and you sucked and
I lost because of you. Andin her lawsuit against him the prayer section
which wherefore Jennifer praised judgment against defendantsas follows, there's five items of why
she thinks that she should win.One. Jennifer shall be awarded all damages,
including future damages, that she hassustained or will sustain, as consequence
(42:45):
of the acts complete complained of herein subject to proof of trial. That
Jennifer be awarded her costs, attorney'sfees and expenses in this action. That
Jennifer be awarded pre judgment interest,that she be awarded exemplary and pouted damages,
And that Jennifer has such other andfurther relief as the Court may deem
appropriate. And she demands a jurytrial on all of these claims. So
(43:07):
she lost her first one, andthen she decided to sue her attorneys.
In this second lawsuit, Jennifer Chievamade the claim that Marta Greenwald, that
Elliott's stepmother accused her of his murder. And all of these documents are online
to see again. If you arelooking for a lot of the documentation,
(43:28):
go to Allison Camu's website Justice forElliott Smith. All of the original documents
are quite literally scanned and uploaded onhere, so you can see all of
the lawsuits top to bottom, theamendments, all of it. But it
is wild. She quite literally saysthat Marta Greenwald, elliot stepmother accused her
of killing him. And the firstlawsuit it was basically they deemed that,
(43:52):
you know, she wasn't a licensedagent, so the estate didn't have to
pay her anything. And then theand then she sued her own attorneys as
well. And there have been alot of theories out there, and because
of this, there are so manytheories out there as to what could have
happened to Elliott Smith. Did hecommit suicide, did Jennifer Chiba murder him?
(44:14):
Did someone he could have owed drugmoney to come into the apartment In
the span of five minutes, stabhim to death and write a suicide note
on a post it. It's mypersonal opinion that the math ape mathin that
something suspicious occurred here, and that'sprimarily due to the various aberrations that are
(44:34):
present in this case, between ElliottSmith supposedly stabbing himself through his clothing,
to the lack of hesitation marks,the presence of likely defensive wounds, the
fact that this woman who had amaster's in counseling, who had multiple,
(44:55):
multiple multiple CPR certifications, performed removeda butcher knife that was lodged like seven
inches into Elliott Smith's chest, intohis heart, and then performed CPR on
him, to her story changing multipletimes as to what transpired that day in
(45:15):
the apartment, to her likely showeringafter his death but before the police and
paramedics came to her, changing herstory about how long she and Elliott were
romantically together, to her suing hisstepmother claiming that she and Elliott had been
together for years and that he madea contract and the estate owed her a
million dollars, to her ex boyfriendbuying her a plane ticket the week of
(45:38):
his death out of the country toHong Kong, a one way ticket,
mind you, to her staying elsewhereuntil she was off radar and then going
back to LA I definitely subscribed toAukham's razor view of pretty much everything.
If you are really into true crime, you know that this is largely true.
Aukham's razor is basically a type ofprince or philosophy. Say that a
(46:01):
certain event has two possible explanations.The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is
usually correct. So to me,in my opinion, that no one asks
for Elliot Smith's death leaves more questionsthan answers. I feel like in this
(46:22):
case, if we were to applyOukham's razor here, that we would have
to ignore the fact again for allthe reasons I just listed, the clothing,
the defensive wounds, lack of hesitationmarks, her changing stories, the
suspension of this belief for all ofthose things to be true, right,
the chance and the odds of thisbeing just a straight up suicide. To
(46:44):
me, the percentage possibility just getsso much lower with every new fact that
you add to this. And that'sjust my humble opinion. And I know
that it's hard when you deal withsomeone a character, a human being like
Elliott Smith, mister Misery himself themost miserable man alive. Like those are
statements about him from the media,And there's another book that was written about
(47:07):
his death called Torment Saint, theLife of Elliott Smith by William Todd Schultz,
and he, unlike Alison Camu,believes he believes that Elliot committed suicide.
And he does make a point bysaying, quote, some of his
fans have spent so much psychological energyidealizing him that they can't find him guilty,
(47:30):
so they have to find somebody elseguilty of it. They can't accept
that their hero has abandoned him.They can't accept that their hero has abandoned
them. Obviously, I think thatstatement is a you know, it would
be a point, except it iskind of also bullshit. The reason why
(47:51):
myself and others love Elliott Smith somuch is because he was brilliant. He
was sensitive beyond words. He hadthe ability to describe the mundane and literally
rip his heart out of his chestand put it into his music. That
doesn't mean that we can't view himas the complex human being that he is.
(48:14):
That he had suicidal ideation, thathe had attempts, and not only
that too, but did you knowthat when an addict, a recovering addict
comes out of rehab, that thetime that they are most susceptible to outbursts
or you know, behaviors, suicidesthings like that is actually when they are
(48:34):
sober and when they are clean,because they are part, in my language,
having to raw dog life without thecoping mechanism that they once had.
There are a lot of different elementsin this case that fit the profile,
and in my opinion, there arejust enough which sorry not Elia, there's
a lot that indicate that this shouldnot have been decided and determined as suicide
(49:00):
as quickly as it was. Andunfortunately, and Alison Camu and her book
also took this to multiple forensic specialistsand I believe district attorneys as well,
just kind of getting their thoughts onit. And because Jennifer Chieba was the
only other person present that day,basically unless she comes out having confessed to
(49:20):
it at some point, there's absolutelyno way that this case will ever have
a different outcome that she'll never becharged, you know, I mean,
that's it, really, I mean, there's a reason why, I mean,
Courtney Love says a lot, butshe was absolutely right when she says,
this is the best suicide I've everheard of, because whether it was
or wasn't, it's always going tobe indetermined. But that's it for the
(49:44):
Elliot Smith episodes. Guys, Iwant to know what you think. Do
you think that it was just thecase of Elliott having a manic moment,
slipping and killing himself or do youthink that something potentially more sinister transpired here
based on on the medical examiner cornerand witness statements and follow up behavior.
(50:05):
Would love to know your thoughts becausea handful of you reached out and said
and thanked me for bringing this upnone you hadn't heard of Elliott Smith before
or this case as it were,And I want to know what do you
guys think? Let me know.You can email at info at wesell Thedeuble
dot com. I will read someof the best responses and comments there,
(50:25):
or you can leave a comment onInstagram. We saw the double podcast on
the show notes. You can againalways hit me up on Instagram personally at
Robin Underscore WSTD Again. On Tuesday, Iris and I will be recording on
the update of the Chad Daybell trialgoing over the first week and a half
of it, and after that goingto be revisiting the Moscow four and the
(50:46):
update in the Brian Cooberger trial untilnext Crime
Sunny spaces, smiling faces, happyplaces. But every sunny space holds a
shadow. Behind every smile, oursharp teeth, and every happy place has
something sinister lurking just below the surface. Welcome to We Saw the Devil,
the podcast diving deep into the chillingrealms of true crime. Join your host
(00:26):
Robin as she unravels mysteries that haveleft investigators baffled and armchair sleuths obsessed.
Be forewarned, dear listener, WeSaw the Devil is not for the faint
of heart. Our unflinching exploration willtake you to the darkest corners of the
psyche and through the unimaginable depths ofhuman darkness to unearth stark secrets. To
(00:47):
the harsh light of day. Nothingwill be left untouched. Are you ready?
Are you sure? We Saw theDevil? Hello everyone, when you
are listening to We Saw the Devil. This is Robyn and I am here
with part two of Between the Bars, the controversy of Elliott Smith's alleged suicide.
(01:10):
Again, this is a case thatI've wanted to cover for years now.
Elliott Smith is one of the greatmusical loves of my life. Whether
it's guitar, his lyricism, whatever, and back in two thousand and three,
he tragically passed in very wild andquite suspicious circumstances, and his fan
(01:32):
base has been pretty split, Iwould say, since then as to what
exactly transpired that afternoon in October oftwo thousand and three, And this is
always something that has fascinated me aswell. So so in this episode,
I'm going to cover what happened onOctober twenty first of two thousand and three.
(01:52):
We're going to get into the medicalexaminer report, the autopsy, the
toxicology results, and try to puttogether a full picture and show both sides
of the argument. But before Iget into that, even before we get
housekeeping out of the way, Iwant to start out the episode with a
couple of corrections. Y'all know,I pride myself on my research, and
(02:15):
especially when it comes to Elliott Smith, There's very little that I would ever
get wrong. But unfortunately, becausethis is a true crime podcast and the
nature of it, I say alot of the same phrases over and over
again, and sometimes I find myselfon autopilot and I can be reading something
that I wrote but say something completelydifferently. I should probably get that checked
(02:38):
out. But in the last episode, I said Elliott's death was officially ruled
a suicide. That is not thecase, and I knew that. That's
one of the reasons why I findit so fascinating. But I say that
phrase so much his death was officiallyruled a suicide or officially ruled a homicide
by X Y or Z. Isay that phrase so much much that it
(03:00):
just kind of found its way intothe script automatically. But no, his
death was determined to be inconclusive bythe corner. I know it's confusing because
it's that's something we're going to talkabout in this episode because of who he
was, what he wrote about,what he sounded like, his own personal
issues and demons that he was fighting, and the police coming out immediately after,
(03:23):
immediately jumping the gun and kind ofdeclaring it a suicide before the toxicology
or the autopsy had even taken place. That kind of became the official narrative
for most people. But no,again, his death was determined to be
inconclusive by the corner. This istechnically still an open case and the LAPD
(03:43):
is still accepting information and looking forinformation on it. Although it's not actively
necessarily being worked. Secondly, whendescribing the day of his death, I
mentioned night, and again another autopilotmoment. Like ninety nine percent of crimes
that we discussed on this podcast happenedat night, so the night of their
death is something that I consistently saymultiple times, generally per episode. So
(04:06):
again another autopilot moment. I meantdaytime as perish in the middle of the
day, and I am sorry aboutthat. I just wanted to make sure
that those corrections were made before weget into this one. But let's go
ahead and get the housekeeping out ofthe way. As I mentioned in the
previous episode, the new website isa work in progress, so currently there
(04:28):
is no website, so please donot hesitate to email at info at wesawthedevil
dot com. I've received a handfulof emails and messages surrounding the website being
down. Yes, I know,I am sorry for any inconvenience there.
It will be back shortly better thanever. Iris and I were going to
record on the Chad day Bell caseand do an update on that last week.
(04:48):
I got a little bit busy andso I suggested we record Tuesday tomorrow
and then we can do a weekand a half catch up. But I'm
very excited to do that. Haven'tforgotten about it. It is coming.
We are just going to be recordingtomorrow instead. After that, I'm going
to be revisiting the Moscow four casewith Brian Coberger. His alibi was released
(05:10):
over the last week and it's interesting, to say the least, So I
would like to talk about that,why it's important, how it's potentially going
to impact his defense, as wellas the reaction from the Gonzalvez family,
which is very, very colorful.Other than that, if you're not following
the show on social media, makesure you do so. On Instagram,
you can follow it. We sawthe double podcast. If you want to
(05:30):
follow me the food that I make, the animals that I have, and
the music that I like, youcan do that on Robin Underscore WSTV.
Alrighty, and let's go ahead andget into it. One thing that I
wanted to point out, and Idiscussed this moment in the previous episode,
was in early two thousand and threewhen Elliott was playing and some guy in
the audience said, grow a backbone, and I didn't really think much of
(05:54):
it after that, And then Iwas doom scrolling the other day and it
came across a clip of Joe Roganinterviewing one of his friends and the guy
was like, I was having sucha downtime, and Joe, you were
such a good friend. Like wewere driving in my car and I was
listening to Elliott Smith and you werelike, what the fuck is this shit?
Are you okay? And it gotme thinking just how much just Elliot
(06:20):
Smith as a whole and his sound, how he is a person, was
type cast. Everyone just saw himas kind of like the sad sack heroin
Addict, and that's not the totalityof what Elliot Smith was. And so
I thought again about that moment fromthat show where the guy in the audience
(06:40):
was like, grew a backbone.And I actually found that clip on YouTube
and I'm going to play it now. Thank you, Thank you much.
(07:00):
Those two people were nice enough tocome up and see them all, right,
go one left, Get a wetbackbone? What it's like, get
(07:23):
a backbone? What the fucking I'mplaying? Not? Almost nothing I could
tell you about a dream I hadlast night. Otherwise I can't be more
per fucking for real. You knowwhat I mean, honestly, get it
back, Okay, I'll try.I'm not trying to pick on you.
(07:46):
Maybe I didn't understand what you're saying. Whatever, And I'm playing a lot
of the dark songs to night yourself. Sorry, I don't you know,
it doesn't matter to me whether thealready to talk about. It's kind of
(08:07):
funny though I'm playing about going.I'm very healthy now, so don't get
bummed out. Everybody's second home,always trying to get me alone, E
(08:33):
easy way. I think this momentin particular tells you everything you need to
know about Elliott Smith. He wastalented beyond belief. Obviously, you know
I played clips. His lyricism isgreat, but as a person, he
was so shy and also really kind. He really could be the world sweetest
(08:56):
old angel baby. And I thinkthat that clip, this kind of encapsulates
everything that Elliot pretty much was.I ended the last episode in two thousand
and three with Elliott being clean andliving with his girlfriend, fellow musician Jennifer
Chieva. And there's a common misconceptionby many that he was just some depressed
(09:16):
drug fiend and junkie who got intoa fight with Jennifer and killed himself in
a drug fueled menia. And ifthere's anything that you glean from this these
episodes, let it be this.Elliot had attended rehab and successfully kicked heroin
other prescription drugs as well as alcohol. He was only on his prescribed medications.
(09:37):
In taking just the prescribed amounts,he given up red meat, refined
sugar, and was frequently seen ata local health food store buying food and
supplements. He started working on hisnext album the week before his death.
He reached out to a producer thathe hadn't even spoken to in almost a
year and asked him to work onhis next album with him. But first,
(09:58):
let's talk a little little bit aboutJennifer Chiba. Jennifer graduated from Loyola
Marymount University with the master's in ClinicalArt Therapy. She claims that she has
more than fifteen years of experience init, and she's also a licensed marriage
and family therapist, getting her licensefirst in nineteen ninety five. If you
(10:18):
want to look online and just literallyjust look up at Jennifer Chiba, how
about we google that right now,Jennifer Chiba therapy. Very first thing that
comes up is ikei MA show therapyand you can see she is currently open
if you want to find a therapist. She does online and virtual therapy.
(10:39):
You can find her site right there. But she also worked as an art
therapist at Five Acres, which islocated in southern California, and it's basically
a school for troubled children, childrenthat were abused, delayed, you know,
in trouble whatever. After Elliott gotclean and out of rehab, he
ended up moving in with her intothe house on Le Moyne Street in Los
(11:00):
Angeles, and she became a sortof force in his life. She ended
up being super protective, controlling Imean protective, i e. Controlling of
him, who he could talk,who could come back and talk to him.
She controlled the backstage entirely. Byall accounts, she separated and kind
of isolated him away from his friends, both professional and personal. His friends
(11:24):
could see her taking control and theywere concerned, especially since Elliott had allegedly
told one of his producer friends thatJennifer had chased him around with a knife
the year before. Also again,she played bass in a local LA band
called the Warlocks, and then shealso was in a couple other bands but
she was working on a single whenwith her newer band when Elliott died.
(11:46):
And also importantly, which I'm goingto touch on in this episode as well,
she did previously date before Elliott Weezerfrontman Rivers Cuomo. They dated for
I believe three years and again,Weezer's biggest album was pretty much and totally
inspired by her. A lot ofthe songs are about her. That was
(12:07):
a very serious relationship if you askaround the LA music scene. And here's
where I want to shout out abook. There's a book called A question
Mark, an Investigation into the MysteriousDeath of Elliott Smith, and it's by
Alison Kimu and you can get iton Kendle. I got it, I
think for four nine nine or fiveninety nine. You can also for my
(12:28):
Kendle. You can also buy apaperback copy of it as well. But
it is the most incredibly well researchedbook I've seen on this. There are
several books out there. Probably theother most well known one is Torment Saint,
The Life of Elliott Smith. Thatone's written by William Todd Schultz.
But it doesn't really matter who it'swritten by when it comes to Jennifer Chiba,
(12:52):
her reputation precedes her. She prettymuch to everyone is no as being
an opportunist, manipulative, suicidal herself. Duy lost her license, bad fate,
liar, cheater, abusive. Multiplepeople have allegedly said that she was
(13:16):
obsessed with knives and violence. Acouple people said that she actually gave off
traits of histrionic personality disorder, whichwoo that is a doozy if you are
unfamiliar. All I have to sayabout that is Courtney Love has historyonic personality
disorder. If that tells you anything, Just the constant need for attention and
(13:37):
for being the front and center,and typically behavior that knows no bounds in
how to obtain that attention. SoTuesday, October twenty first, two thousand
and three, here's the gist ofwhat happened according to Jennifer Cheeba, as
she was the sole witness and personpresent during this time. And then we're
going to go through the official reportssometimes I'm likely around noon, Jennifer and
(14:01):
Elliott were at their le Moyne Streetbungalow in the Echo Park section of LA.
An argument broke out because Jennifer againshe had a dy and she lost
her license needed a ride to hertherapy appointment, And I see a lot
of people online shaming her for beinga therapist who goes to therapy. As
(14:22):
someone who has a lot of friendswho are a therapists, they're also in
therapy, like they also have theirown therapists. So it's a weird thing
to get upset over, I think, but apparently everybody is. But they
got into a fight. Unsure ifElliott didn't want to take her or what,
but Jennifer needed a ride. Theygot into a fight over it.
(14:43):
It got heated. Jennifer said shewent into the bathroom and locked herself in
there. She says she was inthere for about five minutes, and there
are some reports that she took ashower, that she went took a five
minute shower and came out, butshe's changed her story multiple times. She
claims at first, at least thatshe heard a scream. She opened the
(15:03):
door and saw Elliott facing away fromher. He's yelling frantic running around.
Blood is splattering everywhere, and Elliottstarts running towards the balcony. While Jennifer
gets to him, she sees thathe has a knife, sticking out of
his chest. She pulls the knifeout of his chest and begins as he
(15:24):
collapses, then begins to give himCPR. Now, for those of you
who are CPR certified, let thatsink in for a moment. This woman,
who worked with children had several instancesand dates of CPR certification, pulled
a butcher knife out of the chestof her boyfriend and then performed CPR.
(15:50):
Most people are aware that if someoneis impaled by something, you don't remove
it. If you have a knifestuck in you, you don't remove it.
She did the exact opposite. Sheremoved the knife, blood apparently was
going everywhere, and then she performedCPR, which also didn't help. She
didn't call nine one one immediately.She said that she had some phone problems,
(16:12):
like her cell phone wasn't charged orworking, and there's some chatter that
she said that their landline wasn't workingeither, So there was a delay in
a call to nine one one,which did end up happening. At twelve
eighteen pm. LAFD medics came tothe home and transported Elliott to the hospital,
where he was pronounced dead just twentyminutes later. Jennifer did not accompany
(16:36):
Elliott in that original ambulance. Meanwhile, as Elliott was being transported, investigators
arrived at the home and interviewed JenniferCheeba. She immediately tells the police,
Oh, well, he's a heroinaddict and a crack addict, and he's
been suicidal for years and he's mademultiple attempts. And she just really told
police this is a straight up suicide. He killed himself, and then looks
(17:00):
down at the kitchen table where they'reinvestigating her, like literally near the scene
of the crime, whe there's bloodeverywhere, and notices a post it note
and was basically like, wow,here's a suicide note. Can you believe
that? And then tells the policeand alerts them to it. The suicide
note said I'm so sorry, loveElliot, God forgive me. Not only
(17:22):
that, but she went into theirbedroom got Elliott's private journal had ripped out
a handful of pages that had passageswhere Elliott said he wanted to kill himself
and gave it to police. Nowlet me set the stage here for you.
Imagine that you were taking a facevalue. Imagine that you're in the
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bathroom, you hear a scream,you open the door. You see a
knife, like an eight inch butcherknife lodged all the way into the handle
in your boyfriend's chest. You chasehim, you pull a knife out,
he collapses, You give him CPR. That wound is just going the LAFD,
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you know, the fire department.The medics arrive, and what do
you do? But you decided togo get journals like his private diary,
find the pages where he committed todescribed he wanted to commit suicide, rip
those out for the police, andthen you kind of sit there and wait.
The police declared it a suicide almostimmediately before the corner and toxicology exams
(18:30):
were even complete, and the statementfrom police got published in the media and
made its way into the mainstream,becoming the narrative. It became the immediate
story the day it happened. Afterthe police leave, Elliott's old drummer comes
over and helps Jennifer Chieva mop upElliot's blood, And there's also an allegation
(18:52):
that they were having a secret relationship. No one actually knows, but what
happened after that was equally suspicious.Three days after he died, Jennifer Cheeba
and you know her likely boyfriend thatshe was likely cheating on, Elliott with
allegedly actually ended up going to hisnew Monkey studio, his recording studio that
he had founded, and stole alot of equipment before anybody else could go
(19:15):
there and process and go through things. And immediately after that, Jennifer Chiba
then boarded a plane for Hong Kongand it had a layover in Boston,
and she ended up staying in Bostonfor a little while, and River's coomo
of Weezer was the one who boughther that one way ticket to Hong Kong.
(19:37):
Again, River's coomo of Weezer wasthe one who bought Jennifer Chiba a
one way ticket to Hong Kong.After realizing that she wasn't going to be
prosecuted for anything and that she wasn'tan official suspect, she did finally return
and go back to Los Angeles.And I'm going to let you come to
your own conclusion on that. Butdoes that sound like a normal reaction from
(20:00):
a girl whose boyfriend just committed suicide? But I'm going to go ahead and
read the witness statement. The Countyof Los Angeles Department of Corner Investigator's narrative
as it were. This is theofficial narrative put together by the Coroner's Department,
using sources like Detective King from theLAPD who interviewed Jennifer Chiba, the
medical record, Jennifer Chiba's interview publicist, as well as a psychiatrist. So
(20:26):
the very first piece says investigation.On ten twenty one, two thousand and
three, at eleven fifty five pm, Detective King of the LAPD placed a
call to this office reporting the stabbingdeath of an adult male. The mode
of death was believed to be apossible suicide versus homicide. The death occurred
at a hospital facility on ten twentyone three at one thirty six pm,
(20:47):
and the descendant was transported to FSCon ten twenty two oh three at eleven
thirty am. It gives a locationeighteen fifty seven and a half Lemoyne Street,
Los Angeles. Witness statement. DetectiveKing stated that on ten twenty one
three, at twelve eighteen PM,a nine to one one call was placed
requesting medical assistance at the above injurylocation. LAFD paramedics arrived on scene and
(21:12):
transported the descendent to the hospital emergencyroom. Where he was admitted with two
stab wounds to the chest. Hewas pronounced shortly after arrival. Police officers
and detectives learned that the decedent livedwith his girlfriend, Jennifer, and that
on the afternoon of ten twenty oneoh three, they were having an argument.
Jennifer told police that she locked herselfin the bathroom during this argument,
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and when she came out of thebathroom, she found the descendent with a
knife in his chest. She pulledthe knife out of his chest and called
nine one one. Detectives were ableto recover a suicide note, a journal
writing, and the knife used inthe stabbing from the scene. No further
pertinent information is available at this time. Detectives believe that this death is possibly
(21:57):
suspicious. However, tanuver the circumstancesare unclear at this time. Medical records
indicate that on ten twenty one othree, at one ten pm, the
descedent was admitted to the above hospitalemergency room with two stab wounds to the
chest. He was diagnosed with twolacerations to the heart, which were surgically
(22:17):
repaired. Despite medical intervention. Thedescendent coded and was pronounced by doctor Kimbrel
at one thirty six PM. Nofurther information is available. Jennifer stated that
she has known the descendent for fouryears and has been dating him for over
one year. She and the descedentwere living together at the above injury address.
On the afternoon of ten twenty oneoh three, she and the decedent
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were having an argument and during theargument, Jennifer locked herself in the bathroom.
While she was in the bathroom,she heard the descendent scream, and
she came out and found the descendentstanding with his back to her. When
he turned around, Jennifer saw aknife sticking out of his chest. The
descendent was standing up, conscious andgasping for bread. Jennifer pulled the knife
(23:02):
out of the descendent's chest and sawtwo cuts on his chest. At this
time, the descendent walked away,and Jennifer followed him to where he collapsed.
She called nine one one immediately andperformed citizen CPR in first aid with
operator assistance until paramedics arrived. Oncethe deccedent was taken to the hospital,
police officers arrived and questioned Jennifer aboutthis incident. During this questioning, she
(23:26):
was seated at the kitchen table andnoted for the first time a post it
note that appeared to be a suicidenote left by the descendent. Jennifer recognized
the handwriting on the note as thatof the descendent and had not seen the
note before that moment. The knifethe deccedent used to stab himself was a
regular kitchen knife that, immediately priorto this incident had been sitting out on
a cutting board in the kitchen.Jennifer further stated the descendent has suffered from
(23:52):
depression all his life. He hada history of multiple narcotics addiction, heroin
and crack and alcohol abuse. Althoughhe had been cleaned for over one year,
he engaged in self mutilating behavior andwould burn himself with cigarettes. He
has a history of one possible suicideattempt but unknown details, time frame,
circumstances, and a consistent history ofverbal suicidal ideations in planning. The descendent
(24:17):
sought treatment for his depression from severalpsychiatrists and was being treated with multiple prescription
drugs. Missus Eker stated that shewas the descedent's publicist and has worked with
him since nineteen ninety five for thepast several years, she and the decedent
have not worked together, and onlyrecently, in the last several months have
they begun to work together again.She does not know if the descendant has
a history of suicide attempts or suicidalideations, but did say that suicide was
(24:42):
quote what he wrote about and thatquote he referenced it in his songs.
No further pertinent of information is available. Multiple attempts to reach doctor Stanton have
been met with negative results. Thenit breaks down the scene description. The
death occurred at the above hospital faciltherefore, no corner personnel responded to the
(25:03):
scene. A copy of the suicidenote was provided to LAPD Detective King.
The note was handwritten on a postit note and stated I'm so sorry,
Love Elliott, God forgive me.The note is not dated now. It's
also very very important to note herethat in this report Elliott's name is spelled
e Llliot. It's misspelled. Andbecause of this, there was a whole
(25:29):
conspiracy theory out there that Elliott didn'twrite the note, that somebody else wrote
the note. You know, hissuicide note was misspelled. There's no way
this is actually a typo in thisreport. Supposedly, even though a copy
of the suicide note has not beenseen or published, Elliott's name was spelled
correctly in the original suicide note.It then goes on to get the evidence
(25:52):
that they collected hair and nail kit, also one black T shirt, and
obviously the body. It then goesinto the body examination. The brown hair,
hazel eyes on, natural teeth,on, shaven face, multiple small
circular scars, And that's what Iwould actually like to discuss and get into.
Elliott was still wearing his clothing,he had a T shirt on when
(26:15):
he decided to commit suicide. Now, I'm not going to ruin the book
or do too much for you,but again I am urging all of you
to check out Alison Camu's book onAmazon. That's a L Y S O
n C A m us. Itis an incredible read and so thoroughly researched
that she breaks down the percentages ofhow common you know suicide is, how
(26:41):
common suicide by knife is to menand women. And why all of that
is important is because you'll come tolearn that there are several aberrations in this
case. It just doesn't make senseand it doesn't follow the methods of suicide
(27:03):
and so forth. A very smallnumber of suicides are done by snapping,
by stabbing, by knife, andself stabbing. Elliott was wearing his clothing.
He was wearing his shirt, andin the very very rare instances where
people decide to unlive themselves by stabbingthemselves, they generally take off their clothing.
(27:25):
If it's going to be an injuryor wound located under what would typically
be covered. A lot of peoplego for the wrists, the arms,
the stomach as well the abdomen,their throat, all of these places where
there's no clothing covering it, it'sopen. Elliott was wearing t shirt and
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had to stab himself twice through hisclothing. It's also been widely reported that
there were no hesitation wounds on hischest. He had two lacerations. The
second one was certainly fatal. Thefirst one was listed as potentially fatal.
Almost every single person who dies bystabbing again, whether it's throat, abdomen,
risks, whatever, almost all ofthem, a very very inordinate amount
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have hesitation wounds. It doesn't matterhow upset you are, how devastated you
are. People who decide to unlivethemselves that way will start. It's too
painful, they stop. They haveto gather themselves before they make the final
attempt. Elliott didn't really have hesitationwounds. Also, the wounds were vertical.
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Now I want you, and thisis a very morbid exercise, I
do apologize. I want you topick up the nearest utensil to you,
whether it's a pen, pencil,your phone, and I want you to
pretend that that is a butcher knifeand you are going to stab yourself in
the heart. Do you see howyour arm kind of twists and curves around.
(28:59):
Apparently Elliott had perfectly vertical wounds inhis chest for someone who was manic
and upset and somehow, in thespan of five minutes wrote a suicide post
it note, ran and grabbed abutcher knife. They were perfectly vertical wounds.
That's kind of a lot of thoughtand mental acrobatics to go through in
order to accomplish that. And talkingabout the other wounds as well, he
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had potential defensive wounds on the outsideof each one of his forearms, several
little cuts and lacerations, also acouple on the inside of the palms.
Jennifer, in her interview with thedetective. Detective King said that, oh,
well, Elliot had been a cutter, he was a self mutilator.
He cut himself and burned himself withcigarettes, and that explanation was apparently adequate
(29:48):
enough for the police. Then let'stalk about her saying that he was running
to the balcony and that she wasafraid that he was going to jump off
again. Imagine that you've reached apoint where you want to unlive yourself.
Are you going to stab yourself once, which the first wound was potentially fatal,
stab yourself again, which at thatpoint goes through your sternom and enters
(30:11):
your heart, also causes cartilage damage. And then you, as you can't
breathe as you're spewing blood, yourun across your apartment to the back of
the house to jump up and overa railing to kill yourself that way.
Just think about that for a moment. I don't know about you, but
my answer is probably not if I'mgoing to stab myself twice fatally, I'm
(30:37):
probably going to lay my fat assright down where it happened and just wait
for the final sleep. But inJennifer Chieba's interview with detectives, she said
that he was running and she tookthe knife out and he collapsed. And
then that's when she was slipping andsliding in the blood and she was trying
to give him CPR, which allof that is sus by itself, but
(30:59):
that does not make sense to me. Why would Elliot Smith be running?
Why if he knows that he's probablygoing to die, would he be running.
He wouldn't have the ability to breathe, to scream, to make a
sound, to speak. It justmakes no sense to me. That narrative
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just does not make sense. Also, when Jennifer Calmlin won one and she
said that she had performed, youknow, she had been performing CPR on
Elliott. When detectives got there,she did not have any blood on her.
Again, she did not have anyblood on her. Remember in the
Lori Vallo case, how supposedly whenCharles Valow was killed, how Alex said
(31:48):
that he was doing CPR and whatnoton him and saying, yeah, yeah,
but he had no blood on himwhatsoever. And it was very clear
kind of the same deal here.Not only does she not have any blood
on her, but her hair wasfreshly wet. She's wearing clean clothes.
In my mind, that very obviouslymeans that she took a shower directly after
(32:12):
whatever happened, at least after hersupposed CPR that she performed. Why would
you do that if you knew policewere coming again, it makes no sense
to me. When the toxicology reportfinally came back, enlisted clonazepam, adderall
stratera, rimaran, and gabapentin,all very very very low therapeutic doses of
(32:36):
his ADHD anxiety and depression meds.The man was entirely clean from any illegal
substances. And then we have themedical examiner's final report. Now again,
police the day of not even hoursafter his death, police had already basically
publicized that Elliott Smith had finally committedsuicide more or less right MTV, all
(33:00):
the major news outlets reported Elliott Smithhe met suicide before the toxicology or coroner's
reports had even come out, soit became the accepted narrative. Two and
a half months later, on Januarysixth of two thousand and four, the
medical examiner's final report came out,and this is what is said. Witnesses,
(33:22):
detectives King and Carillo were present atthe autopsy opinion. The cause of
death is stab wounds to the chest. Each stab wound is considered fatal per
se since each entered the chest cavity. Additionally, there is a perforating wound
to the heart associated with stab woundnumber two. Toxicology tests revealed no illicit
(33:45):
substances. All medications were therapeutic orsub therapeutic. The mode of death is
undetermined at this time. While hishistory of depression is compatible with suicide and
the location and direction of the stabwound are consistent with self infliction, several
aspects of the circumstances as are knownat this time are atypical of suicide and
(34:08):
raise the possibility of homicide. Theseinclude the absence of hesitation wounds, stabbing
through clothing, and the presence ofsmall, insized wounds on the right arm
and left hand possible defensive wounds.Additionally, the girlfriend's reported removal of the
knife and subsequent refusal to speak withdetectives are all of concern. Since the
(34:32):
complete knowledge of the circumstances surrounding thestabbing is lacking, the mode will remain
undetermined until such time as sufficient additionalinformation becomes available. So again, the
medical Examiner's final report says that itis inconclusive, the mode of death is
(34:52):
undetermined, and Jennifer Chiba did becomeuncooperative with detectives. Even detect of King
and Carrillo had both stated that sheafter the initial interview like she was gone.
She was like, fuck this shit, I am out. I am
gonna steal everything that he has inthe studio. I'm gonna have my boyfriend,
(35:13):
you know, Rivers Cuomo. I'mgonna have my ex boyfriend, Rivers
Cuomo, Aiden Nabette. No,I'm kidding, before I get sued into
oblivion, I am kidding, kidding. I'm gonna have him buy me a
one way ticket to Hong Kong soi can flee the country three days after
he dies, and then I'm chillin Boston for a little bit to make
sure that I'm not on the radar, and then I'll come back eventually.
(35:35):
I mean, that's legitimately what happenedhere, And this medical Examiner's report,
because the narrative had been so established, barely even made a ripple. Pretty
much only the people who followed ElliottSmith really kind of took notice or cared
about it. It just kind ofwent under the radar, but for the
people who were following it. Thereare a lot of different theories out there
(35:59):
as to what happened to Elliott Smith. And if you thought that Jennifer Cheeba
would just fade into oblivion, gooff the grid, hide, you know,
as not to draw attention to herself, you would be sorely mistaken.
She decided to sue Elliot Smith's estateand particularly Marta Greenwald, who was the
(36:21):
petitioner the executor of his estate.Marta Greenwald was his stepmother, So in
essence, she decides to sue ElliottSmith's stepmother over his death. Now we're
going to get into this first lawsuit. I'm going to read this filing.
On July thirtieth, two thousand andfour, Jennifer Chiba sued Marta Greenwald for
(36:44):
breach of oral contract, declaratory relief, and constructive trust. The complaint alleged
that Chiba and Smith entered into anoral agreement in August two thousand and two.
Chiba and Smith allegedly agreed to livetogether, cohabitate, and combine their
efforts and earnings, share equally anyand all property accumulated as a result of
(37:05):
their efforts, whether individual or combined, and hold themselves out to the public
as husband and wife. The complaintclaimed Smith promised to provide for Chiba's quote
financial needs and support for the restof her life in exchange for her domestic
services as his quote homemaker, housekeeper, cook, secretary, bookkeeper, and
financial counselor for going any independent careeropportunities. In a separate paragraph, the
(37:31):
complaint also alleged that Chiba had agreedto be Smith's manager and agent for the
purposes of arranging and booking and schedulinghis appearances for musical performances, and to
carry out the preparation and production ofhis album in exchange for fifteen percent of
the proceeds earned and received. Chibaclaimed that Greenwald breached this agreement by refusing
(37:53):
to pay her for performing her contractedservices. Chiba attached to this complaint a
creditors claim in excess of one milliondollars for the contracted services that she rendered
to Smith for the proceeds from hiscomposition's performances and albums. So to recap
(38:13):
here, Elliott Smith dies suspiciously withtwo stab wounds to the heart. She
goes to his studio and cleans outhis recording equipment. She takes a lot
of his belongings and stuff from theapartment that they shared. She hops on
a one way flight to Hong Kong, has a stayover in Boston for a
little while. Eventually, when it'sdeemed that she's not going to be charged
(38:34):
or prosecuted, she goes back tola Within a week of Elliott's death,
she was already seen being affectionate andhandsy with another guy. She then obtains
counsel to sue Elliott Smith's estate,who is run as the administrator being his
stepmother, and sues her for notgiving her more than a million dollars that
(38:54):
she claims she would was owed basicallyas his girlfriend, but then lists a
bunch of random shit and activities andwhatnot that roles that she supposedly took over
for him. All of this basedon an oral contract that Elliott supposedly made
with her, so a couple thingsin this She claims that she was in
(39:16):
a romantic relationship with Elliott for overthree years. Now we know that's bullshit
because when she was interviewed by detectiveshours not even hours after his death,
she said that they had been ina relationship for less than one year for
about a year. That magically,in her lawsuit that one year tripled into
(39:42):
more than three years. Not onlythat, but in the original lawsuit she
lists separately. She lists basically domesticduties right like cooking, cleaning, housekeeping,
and then sets out and says,you know, talent, manager and
age. Basically manager and agent isa separate paragraph. Well, when that
(40:04):
first lawsuit, she learned very quicklythat pretty much to be considered an agent
you actually have to have a licensefor that. And it was kind of
like an oh shit moment for her. So that's when we get on November
first, she filed her first amendedcomplaint. Two years later, in April
of two thousand and six, shefiled her second amended complaint, the operative
(40:27):
complaint, which basically divided her agreementwith Elliott into two separate parts, the
cohabitation agreements and then the recording managementagreement. So she basically said, here
are two reasons why I'm owed thismoney. Number one, the cohabitation agreement,
which basically consisted of her promise toElliott Smith to be his homemaker,
(40:52):
housekeeper, cook, you know allthat list for going any independent career opportunities,
where basically she said, I willdo all of these things for you
and forego a career of my own. She still claimed that Elliott agreed to
provide for all of her financial needsand support for the rest of her life.
The recording management agreement basically put outher making a promise to Smith to
(41:15):
be his manager and agent for thepurposes of arranging his booking and scheduling his
appearances, and to prepare and producehis albums, and she claims that Elliott
agreed to give her fifteen percent ofthe proceeds. So in that second amended
complaint, she admits that she hadnot and was not licensed as a talent
agency and was unaware that she evenneeded a license. And she also conceded
(41:39):
that the fact that she did nothave a talent agency license made that recording
management agreement void and unenforceable, soshe lost on that count. So with
this second amendment, she basically saysadmits, Okay, I can't fight this.
You're right, I didn't have alicense, So I'm going to put
(42:00):
all my eggs in the basket ofthe cohabitation agreement. I'm not going to
get into the nitty gritty of thecase, but just suffice it to say
she lost, and Jennifer Chiba wasnot about to lose. She was very
upset with that. So what doesshe decide to do? She decides to
sue her own fucking attorneys. Shesues Ron Gold and she accuses him of
(42:22):
negligence, basically saying, my casewas so air tight and you sucked and
I lost because of you. Andin her lawsuit against him the prayer section
which wherefore Jennifer praised judgment against defendantsas follows, there's five items of why
she thinks that she should win.One. Jennifer shall be awarded all damages,
including future damages, that she hassustained or will sustain, as consequence
(42:45):
of the acts complete complained of herein subject to proof of trial. That
Jennifer be awarded her costs, attorney'sfees and expenses in this action. That
Jennifer be awarded pre judgment interest,that she be awarded exemplary and pouted damages,
And that Jennifer has such other andfurther relief as the Court may deem
appropriate. And she demands a jurytrial on all of these claims. So
(43:07):
she lost her first one, andthen she decided to sue her attorneys.
In this second lawsuit, Jennifer Chievamade the claim that Marta Greenwald, that
Elliott's stepmother accused her of his murder. And all of these documents are online
to see again. If you arelooking for a lot of the documentation,
(43:28):
go to Allison Camu's website Justice forElliott Smith. All of the original documents
are quite literally scanned and uploaded onhere, so you can see all of
the lawsuits top to bottom, theamendments, all of it. But it
is wild. She quite literally saysthat Marta Greenwald, elliot stepmother accused her
of killing him. And the firstlawsuit it was basically they deemed that,
(43:52):
you know, she wasn't a licensedagent, so the estate didn't have to
pay her anything. And then theand then she sued her own attorneys as
well. And there have been alot of theories out there, and because
of this, there are so manytheories out there as to what could have
happened to Elliott Smith. Did hecommit suicide, did Jennifer Chiba murder him?
(44:14):
Did someone he could have owed drugmoney to come into the apartment In
the span of five minutes, stabhim to death and write a suicide note
on a post it. It's mypersonal opinion that the math ape mathin that
something suspicious occurred here, and that'sprimarily due to the various aberrations that are
(44:34):
present in this case, between ElliottSmith supposedly stabbing himself through his clothing,
to the lack of hesitation marks,the presence of likely defensive wounds, the
fact that this woman who had amaster's in counseling, who had multiple,
(44:55):
multiple multiple CPR certifications, performed removeda butcher knife that was lodged like seven
inches into Elliott Smith's chest, intohis heart, and then performed CPR on
him, to her story changing multipletimes as to what transpired that day in
(45:15):
the apartment, to her likely showeringafter his death but before the police and
paramedics came to her, changing herstory about how long she and Elliott were
romantically together, to her suing hisstepmother claiming that she and Elliott had been
together for years and that he madea contract and the estate owed her a
million dollars, to her ex boyfriendbuying her a plane ticket the week of
(45:38):
his death out of the country toHong Kong, a one way ticket,
mind you, to her staying elsewhereuntil she was off radar and then going
back to LA I definitely subscribed toAukham's razor view of pretty much everything.
If you are really into true crime, you know that this is largely true.
Aukham's razor is basically a type ofprince or philosophy. Say that a
(46:01):
certain event has two possible explanations.The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is
usually correct. So to me,in my opinion, that no one asks
for Elliot Smith's death leaves more questionsthan answers. I feel like in this
(46:22):
case, if we were to applyOukham's razor here, that we would have
to ignore the fact again for allthe reasons I just listed, the clothing,
the defensive wounds, lack of hesitationmarks, her changing stories, the
suspension of this belief for all ofthose things to be true, right,
the chance and the odds of thisbeing just a straight up suicide. To
(46:44):
me, the percentage possibility just getsso much lower with every new fact that
you add to this. And that'sjust my humble opinion. And I know
that it's hard when you deal withsomeone a character, a human being like
Elliott Smith, mister Misery himself themost miserable man alive. Like those are
statements about him from the media,And there's another book that was written about
(47:07):
his death called Torment Saint, theLife of Elliott Smith by William Todd Schultz,
and he, unlike Alison Camu,believes he believes that Elliot committed suicide.
And he does make a point bysaying, quote, some of his
fans have spent so much psychological energyidealizing him that they can't find him guilty,
(47:30):
so they have to find somebody elseguilty of it. They can't accept
that their hero has abandoned him.They can't accept that their hero has abandoned
them. Obviously, I think thatstatement is a you know, it would
be a point, except it iskind of also bullshit. The reason why
(47:51):
myself and others love Elliott Smith somuch is because he was brilliant. He
was sensitive beyond words. He hadthe ability to describe the mundane and literally
rip his heart out of his chestand put it into his music. That
doesn't mean that we can't view himas the complex human being that he is.
(48:14):
That he had suicidal ideation, thathe had attempts, and not only
that too, but did you knowthat when an addict, a recovering addict
comes out of rehab, that thetime that they are most susceptible to outbursts
or you know, behaviors, suicidesthings like that is actually when they are
(48:34):
sober and when they are clean,because they are part, in my language,
having to raw dog life without thecoping mechanism that they once had.
There are a lot of different elementsin this case that fit the profile,
and in my opinion, there arejust enough which sorry not Elia, there's
a lot that indicate that this shouldnot have been decided and determined as suicide
(49:00):
as quickly as it was. Andunfortunately, and Alison Camu and her book
also took this to multiple forensic specialistsand I believe district attorneys as well,
just kind of getting their thoughts onit. And because Jennifer Chieba was the
only other person present that day,basically unless she comes out having confessed to
(49:20):
it at some point, there's absolutelyno way that this case will ever have
a different outcome that she'll never becharged, you know, I mean,
that's it, really, I mean, there's a reason why, I mean,
Courtney Love says a lot, butshe was absolutely right when she says,
this is the best suicide I've everheard of, because whether it was
or wasn't, it's always going tobe indetermined. But that's it for the
(49:44):
Elliot Smith episodes. Guys, Iwant to know what you think. Do
you think that it was just thecase of Elliott having a manic moment,
slipping and killing himself or do youthink that something potentially more sinister transpired here
based on on the medical examiner cornerand witness statements and follow up behavior.
(50:05):
Would love to know your thoughts becausea handful of you reached out and said
and thanked me for bringing this upnone you hadn't heard of Elliott Smith before
or this case as it were,And I want to know what do you
guys think? Let me know.You can email at info at wesell Thedeuble
dot com. I will read someof the best responses and comments there,
(50:25):
or you can leave a comment onInstagram. We saw the double podcast on
the show notes. You can againalways hit me up on Instagram personally at
Robin Underscore WSTD Again. On Tuesday, Iris and I will be recording on
the update of the Chad Daybell trialgoing over the first week and a half
of it, and after that goingto be revisiting the Moscow four and the
(50:46):
update in the Brian Cooberger trial untilnext Crime
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