March Headlines: (Moscow 4 / Kohberger, Kei'Mani Latigue, Karen Read) & What We're Watching

Robin is back! For this episode, she gives a life update and then covers some of the current true crime headlines headlines, from the upcoming Karen Read trial (Part 2: Electric Boogaloo), where questions of justice and accountability are at the forefront, to the updates surrounding Bryan Kohberger and the case of the Moscow 4.  She also touches on the tragic case of Kei'Mani Latigue and the unsettling reports of TWO deaths during conjugal visits in a California prison.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Sunny spaces, smiling faces, happy places. But every sunny space
holds a shadow. Behind every smile, our sharp teeth, and
every happy place has something sinister lurking just below the surface.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to We Saw the Devil, the podcast diving deep
into the chilling realms of true crime. Join your host
Robin as she unravels mysteries that have left investigators baffled
and armchair sleuth's obsessed. Be forewarned, dear listener, We Saw
the Devil is not for the faint of heart. Our
unflinching exploration will take you to the darkest corners of

(00:41):
the psyche, and through the unimaginable depths of human darkness,
to unearthed stark secrets, to the harsh light of day.
Nothing will be left untouched.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Are you ready? Are you sure?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
We Saw the Devil?

Speaker 3 (00:59):
Hello?

Speaker 4 (00:59):
Everyone one, you are listening to We Saw the Devil.
This is Robin and yeah, it's been a while. I'm
sure you've noticed that I've kind of been in I
aiat again for about two months or so. And no,
it's not because I suddenly got a cooler hobby or
disappeared off the face of the earth or abducted for
the last episode my friend and I did on UAPs,

(01:21):
although that would have been a whole lot cooler if
I had. Life's just been insane. But before we get
into that and the episode at hand, just quick housekeeping, y'all.
You are listening to We Saw the Devil. This is
a true crime podcast. Well it's kind of morphed beyond
solely true crime, just really anything kind of that I
find weird and interesting. That can include anything from UAPs,

(01:44):
true crime, random things on the dark web, or weird happenings.
But if you're interested in these topics true crime, updates,
cool stories, weird happenings, hit the follow and then also
on Instagram We Saw the Devil podcast. If you're interested
in following me my life who I Am, you can
also follow me on Insta which is Robin Underscore WSTD.

(02:06):
Really excited though to continue and be back. I've missed
all of you. I'm miss engaging with you talking on
various platforms. Also, there is a discord and I'm going
to start doing weekly discord chats as well if you
haven't followed there, and you can find the links on
especially on Instagram right now. But I'm glad to be
back you guys, and let's just take sixty seconds or so,

(02:27):
maybe one twenty seconds to just break down what's been
going on. I think the last time I did an episode,
you guys were aware that I lost my job. I
was laid off two days after Christmas and I've been
working there for going on almost four years. Yeah, that
kind of threw me into a panic. I was comfortable,
I loved my job, and then suddenly I was laid

(02:49):
off two days after Christmas. Did not expect one hundred percent,
did not expect. I have since gotten a new job,
full time employment, and I have again joined the world
of project management. If you know anything about project management,
especially in web dev or you know web development world,
it you know, you know what I'm talking about. It

(03:10):
is very busy with many long hours, if you know,
you know. But I love my new company so much,
and I've been really excited. I've just been trying to,
you know, get onboarded. And I started the beginning of February,
so I've you been getting onboarded my first month and
really just trying to focus there, honestly, and at the
end of those days, I am exhausted and I just

(03:32):
want to sleep. And I have had a lot of naps. Also,
I've been doing a lot of traveling lately. I've barely
had time to catch my breath or actually just exist. Also,
I'm doing some pretty major home renovations on top of it,
because I'm moving and I'm going to try to sell
my house and move. So I've had painters in and
out of my house. I've had a couple contractors in

(03:53):
and out of my house. It's basically been tetrius with
home furnishings, moving things around, my dogs, and it's just
been exhausting and wild. Just throw some extra spice into
the mix. I also, in the last month, have gotten engaged.
My girlfriend decided to lock it down a couple weeks ago,
and y'all, she got the ring in February and held

(04:15):
on to it and then proposed mid March, a couple
weeks ago. I had no idea and it was the
sweetest thing ever. So on May twelfth, we are eloping
to Vermont and taking a mini vacation and getting married.
Side note, because I think that most of you listeners,
a lot of you are married. What's it like, I've

(04:37):
never in my entire life wanted to get married. I've
been one of those people that's been vehemently against marriage
for myself, something within me just screams and panic. I've
been engaged a couple times, and this sounds so horrible,
and you may stop listening to me when I say this,
or think I'm a complete shit human being. You know,

(04:57):
I've always been proposed to fairly early on in a relationship.
I mean, you know, lesbians, right, the U haul all
of that. I mean that stereotype is largely so valid,
and I don't operate like that. I think it's so
ridiculously stupid, like there is a reason why the lesbians
while we're number one and divorce. You know, you can't
expect to fully know someone after a few weeks or

(05:19):
months of seeing them. So I would accept proposals because
I did genuinely care for them and I didn't want
the relationship to end that soon and just hoped that
the relationship would get to a place where I wanted that,
and that time never came, and it finally did. I
just turned forty a couple months ago. Well, I guess

(05:41):
more than a couple months ago now, Jesus Christ. But
my girlfriend and I have known each other for a
very long time, and she proposed a couple weeks ago,
and I've never been this happy in my life.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
You guys, you know.

Speaker 4 (05:52):
When you've reached a place where your personal and professional
lives are in a great place and life is just good.
That's how I'm feeling right now. And I know that
is quite different from the previous episodes that I had
back in January when things were not looking so positive.
But yeah, that's I guess everything that's happening on my side.

(06:15):
That's why I've been so busy. I've barely even been
on social media as a whole. But yeah, so I
am back full time. My elopement is in May, and
then we are in fact having a big sunset Goth
wedding in Salem, Mass next October for friends and family.
So if you know me, we're close, you're definitely going
to get an invite. So next October, Salem, Mass, There'll

(06:38):
be a wedding. And yeah, but my schedule has finally
evened out a bit, and so from now on, y'all
expect new episodes every week, probably on Saturday. I really
like the Saturday episode drop personally, so expect episodes every
Saturday and I'm going to be much much, much, much
much more engaged on social media insta weekly discord chats,

(06:59):
and so please expect that in the future. But I'm
really excited about this episode in particular, y'all, because it
feels like, I mean, I've been so busy, but I've
been reading headlines, you know, I get the news updates
and whatnot, and just kind of, you know, read into
the stories. So I just wanted to cover some of
the major headlines that I've seen in the news that

(07:20):
have been of interest to me and maybe it will
be of interest to you. So let's go ahead and
go through a couple of these. And this one is terrifying.
I mean, this actually pretty much brings every woman's worst
fear to light, especially if you were a babysitter when
you were younger, in your teen's early twenties.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Not me.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
I do not have a maternal bone in my body.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
I do not do kids. I'm sorry for all of
you people who do.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
I'm a cool ant. But on March twenty fourth, there
was a babysitter in Kansas. She was looking after a
child and the child complained that there was a monster
under his bed. So the baby's obviously, because this is
a trope. You know, it happens frequently. Babysitter was like, Okay, well,
you know, I'll go check. Make sure there's nothing under there, y'all.

(08:10):
She came face to face with a man under that bed,
A struggle broke out, one of the children was knocked over,
and then Martin Vlobos Junior fled the seat. Twenty seven
years old, he had previously lived at the residence, but
was under a protection order to stay away. He was

(08:30):
eventually found, and he now faces multiple charges, including aggravated kidnapping,
aggravated burglary, aggravated battery, child endangerment, and felony obstruction of justice. Clearly,
he's also been charged with violating the protection order, and
he is currently being held on five hundred thousand dollars bail.
I mean, this isn't his first run in. He was

(08:51):
also arrested earlier in March for violating another protection order.
I cannot imagine the level of terror either that child
or the babysitter experience that day, And I mean, first
lessons learned from this. Every babysitter needs monster spray now,
because apparently the only thing scarier than a child's imagination

(09:14):
is a man violating a protection order under the bed.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
I mean, Jesus.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
Christ cannot imagine that. So that was one of the
headlines this week that I think sent a fear and
panic through everyone that I know that I discussed this with,
excuse me. Also, there's the case that just came to
light over the last I would say two weeks. And
this actually happened like six months ago, but it was

(09:39):
during the California wildfire, so no one really you know,
that was the focus on news coming out of California,
So this kind of went under the radar. But it's
crazy and it's so sad. So two women were allegedly
strangled to death during conjugal visits with their husbands at
Mule Creek State Prison in California. And this happened in

(10:00):
the same prison just four months apart. So the first
was Tania Thomas. She was forty seven years old. She
was killed in July, and then sixty two year old
Stephanie Dowes was killed in November. Now, both of these
women were visiting their husbands who now both husbands were
serving life sentences for violent crimes, particularly David Brinson. Stephanie

(10:23):
Dowes's husband, the most recent one in November. He had
actually murdered four men in the nineteen nineties. He apparently
thought they were drug dealers. He went to go rob them,
realized they weren't. He thought they had cocaine. They apparently
just had a little bit of weed. But he killed
all four of them execution style in the nineteen nineties,
and he received a life sentence. More information is available

(10:47):
on Stephanie dows but they had only been married for
a couple years and she was going to visit him
on conjugal visits, which, if you are aware, that is
basically where married bowses when one is an inmate, it
is a privilege that they get and receive based on
good behavior, and so they are able to spend time together,
including having sexual relations. So the Amadur County Coroner's Office

(11:12):
ruled Stephanie Dell's death a homicide. The cause of it
is still investigation. Now, basically what happened is David Brinson,
her husband. You know, she went in for the conjugal
visit and then he called and said that she was unconscious. Well,
it turns out that he actually strangled her to death,
and you know, both of these women's families. They're demanding

(11:34):
changes to the eligibility for conjugal visits. They're saying that
individuals convicted of violent crimes should not be allowed such
a visit and they want increased supervision. And this is
just wild to me. I mean, obviously there was gross
negligence on the part of the prison but these men
had nothing to lose. They are in prison for life.

(11:55):
The most they can do is just give them solitary
confinement and charge them with another crime. They're going to
be there regardless. They're not going to get the death penalty.
I was researching this episode and this particular case trying
to get more details as many details as I could
about it, and details are sparse. But the debate on
conjugal visits is actually kind of an interesting topic in

(12:17):
itself because so it's creepy that so many people, particularly men,
it appears, are saying that sex is a right between
married couples, that that is a basic human right to
have sex with your spouse. Now that's giving me major

(12:38):
in cell vibes of you know men, you know, espousal
rape vibes, right of how you see a lot of
these for some reason all of the stories typically come
out with Southern Baptists, you know, religious men more, you
know trad men. Their wives are mandated to basically fuck
them because they are married. That is a wife's duty
at any point, it doesn't matter if she's in the mood,
wants to sick, whatever, that it is their wife's job

(13:01):
and soul duty to please them sexually. A lot of
that is happening in these threads and it's actually really gross.
But it's really interesting to see the debate there and
you know, pulling data points as well on whether conjugal
visits actually does decrease violence, you know, seeing the debate
between people who live in Scandinavian countries where that is

(13:22):
an option versus you know, the United States, and also
whether conjugal visits are a rehabilitation tactic. I mean, it's
really a tool rather, I mean, it's really fascinating. But
I want to know what you guys think. Do you
think that prisoners should have the ability to have conjugal
visits or do you think that once someone commits a
hateous crime, especially at the level of receiving multiple life sentences,

(13:46):
that they should no longer be able to have that
access or ability. It's a fascinating topic. But anyway, that
was absolutely horrifying. Okay, So moving on to other news,
maybe a little bit more lighthearted than that. Robert Farley,
the police chief of north Bergen, New Jersey, has been
accused by several officers in his department of harassment and

(14:08):
inappropriate behavior. Now one would immediately go, okay, was he
sexually harassing you know, people under him.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
No.

Speaker 4 (14:17):
Officers filed notices and grievances and notices to sue, saying
that Farley had fostered a toxic work environment, engaging particularly
in demeaning practical jokes and harassment. So some of these
accusations include they say that Farley interfered with health and
safety by spiking office coffee with prescription medications, making staff

(14:42):
unknowingly experienced side effects. He tried to get them high
or chilled out. He also allegedly shit on the floor.
I mean, I could say that in a much less
offensive and less cross way, that he would shit on
the floor in the department. Then he ordered some off
to do his daughter's homework for him, and then also

(15:04):
he would damage their personal property and break it. Sometimes
he delivered inappropriate items to other officers' homes personally. Now,
the township of North Bergen has denied the allegations here
and referred the case to the Hudson County Prosecutor's office,
and they actually express confidence in Farley's leadership. So I

(15:25):
don't know what's going on here, but all I can
say is that if multiple officers in the department and
a police department come forward and say, yo, my boss
is drugging us shitting in the floor, I mean he
is shdoodling in the floor and making us do his
child's homework, I can't imagine that that's made up, but

(15:46):
in either I don't know, but I'm going to keep
an eye on that wind because that is mildly interesting
and humorous to me. I'm sure not for them, but
thank god I'm on the outside of that. I am
not fecal friendly. And I don't know about you guys,
but it seems kind of cyclical, the news of husband,
you know, affluent, educated husband trying to kill his wife.

(16:10):
More of that news. A lot of those headlines I've
noticed over the last couple months, but one in particular
just actually chilled me, and that was a doctor in
Hawaii who attempted to throw his wife off of a
cliff and then also murder her. So forty six year
old Gerard Koenig has been charged with second degree attempted
murder after allegedly trying to push his wife off a

(16:32):
cliff at at a very popular spot in Nuahu on
March twenty fourth.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Now.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
His wife is thirty six years old, her name has
not been released, and she survived the attack but currently
remains in critical condition. So he her husband fled the scene,
but was arrested later that evening because thank god, there
was an actual witness. Police reports suggests that the attack
occurred after she refused to take a picture with him.

(17:01):
So apparently they went to the scenic spot. It was
an overlook, very high up overlook, and he was like,
come over. He stood close to the edge and told her, hey,
come over here, let's take a picture. And for whatever reason,
she felt something her intuition kicked in and she did
not want to be near the edge of the cliff,

(17:22):
and so she declined his request, and then they got
into a verbal argument, and then that escalated to him
attacking her physically, picking up a rock and hitting her
in the head with a rock. Attacking her. There was
another person on the trail at that time coming up
to the overlook, another woman. I don't know if she
was running or what, but she heard a woman screaming, help, help,

(17:46):
help me. He's going to kill me. So she came over.
She went through the clearing, she saw him. She made
contact with the husband who was on top of his
wife beating her with a rock, and he takes off.
So therefore his wife was able to stay alive get help.
And he is currently being held on a five million

(18:08):
dollar bail and is scheduled for his first court appearance soon.
You know that is awful, and you know I'm recording this.
I don't have notes on this case, but it's like
the case in Fiji of the husband and wife who
seemed just completely happy in love and they went to
dinner one night on their honeymoon, literally had been married
for I think like they got married there, I believe

(18:29):
on their honeymoon, got married there, and like twenty four
hours after they got married, he beat her to death
in their little bungalow and then got into a kayak
and tried to flee. I mean, I don't understand, but
a lot of these types of headlines lately and I
hate seeing it.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
It's awful.

Speaker 4 (18:51):
But this particular perpetrator was a very prominent doctor in Hawaii,
so I'm definitely going to follow this as it navigates
the legal system and even worse news. I'm sorry if
I'm ruining your Saturday all, but the Kimani Latigue case,
Oh my god. This case is so incredibly sad, especially
seeing on Facebook groups in Toledo and whatnot when news

(19:14):
articles are shared and her former teachers coming out and
talking about her experience as they saw it in the
school system of what she endured even there. But authorities
in Ohio have announced the cause of death for her.
If you're unfamiliar with this case, she was a thirteen
year old girl who disappeared and they actually ended up

(19:36):
finding her dead in a burned out building kind of
close to her house. She was reported missing on March
eighteenth in Toledo, Ohio, and after she disappeared, her mom
and her dad. Her mom on video saying you know,
she wasn't aware of what happened, and then her dad
did an interview with a local TV station and said

(19:57):
that he had last seen his daughter on March sixth,
He said that she called him and said that she
was scared to be alone, that someone was trying to
break into the house, and he said, my cousin and
I basically went over there, sat with her for about
an hour, and we left at a little after midnight. Well,
they did in fact find her body in a burnt

(20:20):
out building, and police issued an arrest warrant for the father,
Darnell Jones, on Sunday, March twenty third, in connection with
her abduction. So the Monday that Kimanie was found her
Now she lived with her grandmother, who is also suspect
in SUS's hell. But they realized quickly that her father

(20:44):
was you know, involved, and he was arrested. She was
found on Monday. He was arrested on Tuesday by Columbus
Police and Columbus he allegedly exchanged gunfire with them. They
saw him walking came up on him. He had a
sealed gun in his hoodie had in exchange with officers.
He sustained critical wounds himself, but he is in the

(21:07):
hospital but he has been stabilized. But the Lucas County
Corner's Office has finally announced more details of her death.
The cause of death, and the autopsy revealed that she
died from quote, multiple incized wounds of the neck. Brian Steele,
a lieutenant with the Columbus Police Department, says that she

(21:30):
was found in horrific condition, that she had basically been
nearly decapitated from these neck wounds, sexually assaulted, and her
hands were cut off. She died from the neck. The
basically near decapitation is how she died, which is so horrifying.

(21:51):
Like I said a minute ago, you know, seeing this
case posted all over Facebook with her former teachers, they
knew she was having a horrible time at home. Sometimes
she would come to school dirty, unkempt, she would have
bruises on her body, and the kids in school apparently

(22:11):
bullied the shit out of her as well. This poor
child had such a horrible life and the human being
you know that was I think by all counts. I mean,
it's obviously not true for everyone, but our parents are
supposed to be our protectors, right, Every single human being

(22:32):
in her life failed her. The teachers repeatedly called CPS
on her home in her situation, and nothing was done.
Her father, her own father, ended up kidnapping her, taking
her to a burned out house, raped her, slit her throat,

(22:53):
almost decapitated her, and then caught off her hands. I
know there's going to be a lot of funllow up
on this case, and it makes me so sad. And
as listeners in true crime, you know, people who are
interested in true crime, we've all seen these cases, right.
I can't give a laundry list right now of children
who have died via abuse when the signs were so

(23:16):
significant and obvious right off the bat to everyone involved,
and the system failed them, even family members who step
forward and call CPS and call the system, you know,
reporting it, and it still falls through the crack cracks,
and then the children end up dead and it's absolutely horrible.

(23:38):
But I cannot imagine that Darnell is going to be
having a good time in prison when he finally gets
in there. But definitely going to follow this case more
as it finally enters the legal system, and you know
all of that. I don't think he's out of the
hospital yet. I mean, again, this just happened. He also

(24:00):
ended up getting shot, but he has been stabilized, so
this will probably move through the justice system shortly, and
I will absolutely be covering that as it happens, but
just God, how tragic. The last update that I want
to cover is Brian Coburger and the Idaho four. Now,
there's been a lot of news and updates and motions
filed in the Idaho four case. For those of you

(24:23):
who are unaware, Brian Coburger is charged with four counts
of murder in connection with the deaths of four college students,
one male, three females. The students were killed in a
rental house near the University of Idaho campus in Moscow.
He has pleaded not guilty and his trial is set
to begin on August eleventh, twenty twenty five. If he
is in fact convicted, prosecutors have stated that they will

(24:45):
seek the death penalty. Now, I am not a proponent
of the death penalty. I have spoken on this at length.
I do not believe in it, but I will not
be sad if this man receives.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
It at all.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
I will still sleep soundly and not shed a single tear.
Over the last couple weeks, again, a lot of motions
and evidence has been released to the public. More or less,
prosecutors have revealed new evidence, and, according to court documents
filed on March twentieth, so nine days ago. Coburger purchased
a knife and sheath online months before the killing. Now,

(25:20):
this particular evidence is part of a motion filed by
the prosecution requesting that his Amazon shopping activity be presented
during trial. They also seek to show that Dylan, one
of the housemates of the victims, who was there, which
who I'm going to talk about more in a moment,
saw a man with bushy eyebrows wearing a ski mask
in the house in the early hours of the date

(25:42):
of this, which was November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, that's
when the murders took place. Prosecutors also intend to introduce
a photograph taken from Coburger's phone showing a self feed
that he took of himself just a couple hours after
the murders. And this is going to you, I guess,
clarify or leave it up to the jurors as it were,

(26:04):
if Brian Coburger has bushy eyebrows, which we'll talk about
that in a moment. In addition to the knife and
the sheath evidence that's come out, prosecutors have stated that
they matched quote touched DNA found on the sheath at
the crime scene to Coburger's DNA. We already did know
that a defense attorney previously suggested that the DNA evidence

(26:25):
be excluded, but a judge denied that motion, and prosecutors
did obtain a search warrant for Coburger's Amazon activity, which
covers basically knife purchases and accessories between March twentieth and
March thirtieth of twenty twenty two, as well as purchases
made from November one and December sixth. They claim that

(26:46):
he bought a k bar, knife sheath, and sharpener during
this timeframe, as well as a mask. Not only that,
but the prosecution has presented a map detailing surveillance footage
that shows Coburger's car near the crime scene before the
murders occurred. There's been thousands of pages of court documents

(27:09):
filed in this case, and a lot of the filings
related to expert witnesses are sealed. We're not quite sure
what the Coburger's legal team, what kind of defense strategies
or tactics, but it appears to be that they're going
to try to say that the she was planted at
the scene, that the investigators or police or someone planted,

(27:32):
and they're trying to frame Coburger. In my humble opinion
of someone who majored in political science but did not
end up going to law school, I think that is
a terrible strategy. I think that it is pretty much
going to be an open and shut case against him.
But I digress. I guess we will see what happens
when the trial begins. And this is the piece that
I kind of want to focus on for just a

(27:53):
couple of minutes here, because the text messages between Dylan
Mortensen and beth me Funk, two of the roommates who
also lived in the house and were present at the
time of the murders. Some of those text messages have
been released, so I just want to kind of want
to cover those just for a second, because if you

(28:14):
guys recall girls were awake at the time of the murders.
You know this is a three story house. You have downstairs, upstairs,
and then you know the third floor. I'm not going
to get into all of you know, I have a
map of the house layout and all of that, but
you know, you had Ethan, Xanna Madison, and Kaylee the
victims of this crime. Ethan and Xanna were dating. Madison

(28:36):
and Kaylee best friends. Dylan Mortensen tried calling the other
four roommates that she had and got no response. And
this is around four seventeen am or so, And don't
forget that's also when a local a house close to
this home picked up distorted voices, a whimper, and a

(28:58):
loud thud, as well as a barking dog, which was
Kaylee's dog. Dylan texted Kaylee, Kaylee, what's going on. She
would go on to tell investigators that she heard a
thud and thought that she was playing with her dog,
so she texted Kaylee, Kaylee, what's going on. Bethany, the
other surviving roommate, answered her text messages. They were both

(29:21):
in their separate bedrooms at the time. Dylan then texts
Bethany around four twenty two am. Dylan says, no one's answering.
I'm really confused right now. Bethany said, yeah, dude, wtf
Xana was wearing all black. Dylan says, I'm freaking out
right now. Dylan then proceeds to tell Bethany about what,

(29:42):
you know, what she thought looked like a man in
a ski mask in the house. She then said no
it's like a ski mask almost. Bethany said, shut the
fuck up, Dylan like he had something over his head
in a little inde mouth. I'm not kidding, I'm so
freaked out, Bethany, so am I. And then Bethany tried

(30:03):
to convince Dylan to run to her room. She said, run,
and Dylan ran to Bethany's room. Bethany lived on the
first floor near the front door, and Dylan lived on
the next floor up, and Dylan ran to her room.
Now can you imagine can you imagine the amount of

(30:28):
fear that she felt. She ran to Bethany's room five
to six minutes after she saw this man in the
black mask. It was literally a roll of the cosmic dice.
That she wasn't a victim herself. What if the perpetrator,
Brian Coberger, allegedly had realized that he'd forgotten the she

(30:50):
the knife sheath and decided to go back into the
house to retrieve it. Don't forget that Dylan apparently opened
her door to see what was going on and saw
the man in the black mask walk by her room
and said that she made eye contact with him, you know,
and then she shut and locked her door. Now we
don't know. It's possible that whoever this man hmm, allegedly

(31:13):
Brian Cooberger. You know, maybe he was in a state
of psychosis. Maybe who knows he had whoever this person was,
had just murdered four people on his way out. It
is possible that it was dark. We do not know
about the lighting conditions in the home at that time.
We do not know if it was pitch black, if
he saw her, but she ended up shutting her door

(31:34):
and locking it and then texting Bethany from the probable
cause affidavit quote. During the processing of the crime scene,
investigators found a latent shoeprint. This was located during the
second processing of the crime scene by the ISP forensic
team by using a presumptive blood test and then amino

(31:55):
amino protein that detects the presence of cellular material. The
detected shoeprint showed a diamond shape pattern just outside the
door of Dylan's bedroom. This is consistent with Dylan's statement
regarding the suspect's path of travel. You guys, we don't
know that he didn't try to get inside a Dylan's

(32:18):
room as well. She had locked her door. But if
he walked by, let's say, potentially that he could have
possibly seen her. Maybe he you know, lightly or quietly
did her door knob. That's pure speculation, but we don't know.
But it is true that the suspect walked by her door.
And then the selfie he took supposedly the morning after

(32:39):
the crime, just a couple hours where he's giving a
thumbs up and he looks creepy as hell, that has
also been released this week. The selfie that he took
hours after, looking pleased as punch and happy. And I've
mentioned this in at least two previous episodes, and this
is at least in my lifetime now. I have not
followed obsessive a lot of true crime cases. I mean,

(33:03):
you know, I rabidly cover the Lori Valo case, as
all of you know.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
But I wasn't obsessed with it.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
So I've never rabidly followed a case in forums or
social media or anything like that. This one, I did
subscribe to multiple Facebook groups, and you know, I'm on
the Reddit boards and all of that. And I'm really, really,
really really tired of the fucking victim blaming and what

(33:31):
seems to borderline be of Brian Coberger Fan Club online,
and yes, you are innocent until you are proven guilty. However, Comma,
we can do that without further victimizing surviving young women.
I'm really upset with all of the people and I
see it every single day, all of the people that

(33:54):
say that what they would have done, I would have
done this, I would have done that. We really don't
know what we do in the situation. Why and I
see it every day. Why didn't they call police? If
they were so scared, If Dylan in particular was so
scared and terrified, why didn't she call police? Because our
brains are fucking insane, y'all. I mean, there are three

(34:15):
main defense mechanisms that our brain can switch to to
shield us from perceived danger or extreme fear. You have disassociation. Basically,
when you're facing overwhelming trauma, the brain can employ disassociation
and that's literal detachment from reality, and that shields itself
from intense emotional and psychological impact. Then there's fear circuitry. Also,

(34:39):
in response to trauma, the brain can activate a quote
unquote fear circuitry, and that's basically a survival mechanism that
prioritizes immediate safety, and this circuitry basically bypasses the prefrontal cortex,
which is responsible for rational thought and emotional regulation. And
then the third one is FI, flight, freeze, fawn. You know,

(35:02):
our bodies and brains have evolved to respond to danger
in a lot of different ways, and it is different
on a person to person basis. You know, fight, you're
going to fight the fight, fight it, You're going to flee,
you are going to freeze, you know, or you could
potentially fawn. And again it's our brains attempt to protect us,

(35:26):
and it's rooted. This is an evolutionary survival mechanism. A
couple of years ago, and I'm going to jack this
all up, I read about a case and it was
in a psychology journal, and it was two women who
lived together as roommates. And basically, one woman went into
her roommate's room to ask I think she I think,
if I recall quickly, she was asking to borrow a
dress or something. But she just went into her roommate's room.

(35:47):
She assumed her roommate was asleep and non responsive. She
was a little bit drunk. She turned around, walked out
and went to bed. Now, the next day I believe
the quiet you know, quote unquote quiet roommate's boyfriend came
over and found his girlfriend and dead and basically dismembered
in her bed. The police investigated and based on the
time of death, the surviving roommate became a suspect for

(36:09):
you know, a hot minute. And in her interviews she
talks about seeing a red rug and red bedding, and
you know when she went in, you guys, her brain
literally turned off and would not let her process what
she saw. It categorized the redness into home furnishings. Oh
that's a red rug, that's a red bedding, that's you know,

(36:29):
red blanket. She didn't even realize or remember that in
that moment she saw her friend and roommate butchered and
dismembered on the bed. She just walked out of the
room and went right to bed. And it turns out
that it was an intruder who came in, assaulted and
killed her roommate. The brain does this, you know, then

(36:51):
you have an Idaho four case. You have young college
kids who are intoxicated, likely have drugs in the house.
Let's be real, I basically had half and outs of
lead on me at all times in college. And then
there are just so many factors here as to why
Dylan and Bethany did not call police. They probably at
least had the self awareness that they were intoxicated. You know,

(37:12):
everything was fine. Maybe there was drugs in the house.
Maybe it was fear trauma response. We simply don't know.
And even if they had called police, it would not
have likely changed.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
The outcome of that.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
You know, I've basically had to stop following or engaging
in Idaho four groups because of the stupidity of it all. Well,
I would have called the police immediately. Bitch, Really, you
know that for sure. Come on, you know, it's like
my entire life. I told myself and I just knew
that I would never accept cheating. And this is completely unrelated,
but lightly related in terms of we tell ourselves things.

(37:48):
I know that I would react in a certain way
my entire life. I told myself that I wouldn't accept
cheating or physical abuse in a relationship, you guys, And
then a recent relationship that I've spoken you know about
in the past, that lasted year, I accepted extreme physical
abuse and cheating. Being inside of a situation in it
in the moment is so much more complex emotionally and

(38:11):
mentally than people realize. And in the case of Idaho four,
we also don't know what Dylan saw or heard that
she's even that she's unable to even fully remember or
speak to our brains right like, we don't know what
she saw or heard that evening. We only know what's

(38:32):
been in the affidavit and what's leaked from legal filings
or you know, we see from file motions, and we
don't know, and I just don't understand. And part of
the reason why sometimes I mean to be perfectly transparent
with you, why it's hard for me at times to
get motivated to do episodes, is because I'm tired of

(38:52):
the toxicity of it all, you know, of seeing people
just be nasty or victim blame or and it's not
even just this case, so many different cases. And I'm
not saying that my opinion is the right one. God
I'm right, I'm wrong all the time. But the toxicity
of all of this is awful, especially in this case.

(39:13):
Can you fucking imagine being a Can you imagine being
Dylan in particular in this situation, or if your daughter
was in this situation, and the entirety of the internet
is saying that she's in on it, that she had
to have been involved in some way, or I just
don't understand, you know, survivor's guilt all of that. Like

(39:35):
this woman, this girl needs intense therapy, probably for the
rest of her freaking life, and the entirety of the
Internet is on here shitting on her.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
I just it bothers me.

Speaker 4 (39:47):
So I'm going to close out the Idaho for portion
here by saying that to the people who are constantly
attacking both of these girls in you know, every common section,
form and thread, you smell like a warm turtle tank,
probably also of hot dog water. And I hope that
one day you find the apology letter from Trojan attached
to your birth certificate that was sent to your parents.

(40:08):
And not only that, I'm seeing a lot of people
talk about Brian, treating him like he was some genius
who tried to pull off the perfect crime because he
was studying criminology. Now let's break down that that assumption. Okay,
Brian Coberger had a massive ego and believed that he
was smart enough to get away with it. I truly
personally believe that he was so fucking creepy that in

(40:29):
previous professional and academic environments he had to be separated
and placed away from women. But here's the thing. He
isn't some serial killer savant. He's just manipulative in an egomaniac.
So let's just recap just a couple quick things here. One,
he drove his own car, one that has no front
license plate, which, from what I understand, is pretty rare

(40:52):
in Utah. I know a lot of you listeners live
in Utah, Idaho, so please cry for me if I'm wrong.
He drove his own car without a front license plate
to the crimes, the very same car he had been
in when he was pulled over in Moscow just a
few months prior to the murders. He seemingly didn't consider
that there was possible CCTV footage or cameras around that

(41:13):
would capture his car driving to and from the area
of the murders. That footage came out pretty fucking quickly.
He turned his phone off during the murders and then
turned him turned it back right He turned his phone
off during the murders and then turned it right back
on directly after. He quite literally left behind the sheath
from the knife he used to kill four people with

(41:35):
his DNA on it under one of the victim's bodies.
He then drove back to the crime scene the next
morning as law enforcement descended upon the scene.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
I mean, calm the fuck on.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
This man is not some sort of criminal mastermind in
my opinion, which means nothing. And again this is speculative
on my part. I do believe that this was likely
the very first crime that he committed. I think he
was clumsy and forgetful, and I don't think that he
had it all together. But I think he was an ego.

(42:07):
I think he's sick, and I think he's an egomaniac,
and I think that this.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
Is basically what happened.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
I think that he stalked them for months, surveiled you
know all of that, and it's horrifying. But Brian Coburger,
mean allegedly, is not some criminal genius. Okay, okay, And
I'm gonna stop there and also probably not cover this
case until it actually has a trial or something else,

(42:33):
really really big comes out about it because I can't
with some of you, and by that not you, sweet
angel baby, as you listen to this podcast, you know,
the other the other people, the others, but those are
the only headlines that I wanted to cover today, and
now I just want to touch on two things. So,
as I said in the beginning of this episode, I
do not have a lot of free time, and I
am exhausted. I am either working, traveling, or playing with

(42:54):
my dogs. And I haven't been able to watch really
anything but two things I have been watching. Well, I
guess too, two other things. I mean, I love ninety
Day Fiance, y'all, and the new season is messy. So
my girlfriend and I are watching ninety Day Fiance as
well as the new season of The Righteous Gymstones. Aside
from that, I have not really been enmeshed in anything

(43:16):
true crime. That has changed recently. I have started watching
on both on Max one Hollywood Demons the episode on
Stephen Collins. You guys, so I remember a couple of
years ago, I don't know about you. Did any of
you guys watch Seven Heaven. It was definitely during my time,

(43:36):
and I thought it was cheesy and corny.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
I did not like it. I did not watch it,
but I.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Was aware of what kind of social and pop culture
relevance it had at the time. Now, Stephen Collins was
the actor who played the dad the pastor, and a
couple of years ago it came out that well it
was leaked rather a therapy session between him and his
wife where he admits to sexually abusing a child, and

(44:08):
this you know, TMZ leaked this out, and he was
basically canceled. And then he went on national syndicated news
and he gave a full interview and talked about his
proclivities and that he admitted to abusing multiple children in
various ways. It was absolutely crazy, but I didn't really

(44:28):
follow this. The backstory of it is just so deeply disturbing.
So the show is called Hollywood Demons, and it's basically
going to profile various people you know, in Hollywood and
whatnot and the heinous things they've done. And the episode
on Stephen Collins was very well put together. It has
you know, one of the victims, It has Jeremy London

(44:51):
and has another cast member from Seventh Heaven some production people.
It's crazy how twisted and disturbed this man is. But
it is a very good watch and I highly recommend
it if you're interested in that kind of stuff. Just
knowing who Stephen Collins was from an entertainment perspective and
then getting kind of the more full story on it.
It was a very, very very well done show. I'm

(45:13):
not a huge fan of doctor Drew. Doctor Drew's kind
of not I wouldn't say the narrator of it, but
he's the primary commentator I guess of this, but highly
recommends number two. I just started watching it and I'm
only on episode one. But this is a body in
the snow, the Trial of Karen Reid. I did an
episode previously on this case, and in my opinion, at best,

(45:36):
this was a botched investigation and at worst a cover up. Now,
Karen Reid already had one trial.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Now.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
Karen Reid is the woman accused of killing running over
her police officer boyfriend outside of Boston. Her first trial
was back on April twenty ninth, and it ended on
July first, and Drew's basically were hopelessly deadlocked and a
mistrial was declared. Well, the state of Massachusetts is our

(46:07):
commonwealth is basically bound and fucking determined to put this
woman in prison, and so she is going to have
a second trial. They decided to retry it, which is
absolutely insane to me. First trial resulted in the firing
of the state trooper who led the entire case because

(46:28):
he was a piece of shit. There was more than
six hundred pieces of evidence and seventy witnesses, and it's
absolutely insane. The Norfolk County District Attorney's office moved to
retry Read on the same freaking three charges of second
degree murder, manslaughter, and leaving the scene of a crime.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Now she is.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
Pleaded not guilty yet again. Her attorneys have tried for
months to stop this second trial or at least even
have two of the charges dropped based on double jeopardy grounds,
because they came forward and said multiple jurors themselves stept
forward after the mistrial to say that they in fact
had all agreed that she was not guilty of murder

(47:10):
or leaving the scene, but were basically confused on how
to deliver a partial verdict. And Karen Reid has been
doing a media blitz herself. I mean we're talking national outlets,
local outlets, and then on Max what I've been watching
the first episode is a body in the Snow, the
trial of Karen Reid, and it really breaks down and
gets into the weeds on this. More than seven million

(47:32):
people have watched it just in the first week since
it came out a couple weeks ago on March seventeen.
The new trial is scheduled to begin on April first.
This one is going to be even more scrutinized, and
the entire thing is absolutely insane. Highly highly highly suggests

(47:52):
that you watch the documentary because here's the thing, a
couple items. I guess why this case is so significant
is that something very much odd happened here, something very
very odd at best, in my opinion, this was a
botched investigation at best, at worst, a complete cover up
amongst the law enforcement. It is a complete mess. Karen

(48:15):
Reid claims that she and her boyfriend were both drunk.
They went over to someone's house. She'd never been there.
He walked into the house, she can get a hold
of him, and she left. He was found dead in
a snowbank, and she is being accused of hitting him
with her car. I'm going to let you guys watch
the documentary or if you're interested in the case, the

(48:35):
full timeline the trial. God, there are thousands at this
point of YouTube videos on the trial because it is
so fascinating. But I want to know what you guys think.
Do you guys think she did it? I will say
that the only thing that's put a kind of sour
taste in my mouth is I can understand that Karen
Reid is not a likable person, and you know, two
things can be true. She can be really unlikable and
kind of have discussing mannerisms and demeanor, but also not

(48:58):
be a murderer that she is on a media blitz.
She's laughing and smiling through most of her interviews, so
I can understand how that rubs most people the wrong way.
She's not likable, but I don't know. It's fascinating, and
I predict that the second trial is probably going to
end in the same way. Could be wrong, but I
want to know what you guys think with that. That's

(49:20):
all I got for you today. So let me know,
especially on the Karen read piece, what you guys think
starting here in literally a couple days. So I'm definitely
going to be covering this in the upcoming probably a
couple months, because I'm personally fascinated and want to see
the strategy from each side now on the second trial,
But I want to know what you guys think. Do
you think that Karen Reid knowingly murdered John O'Keefe. Do

(49:42):
you think she accidentally killed him or do you think
this is a complete conspiracy and cover up on the
side of the local Massachusetts police. Let me know and
that's it for today, y'all.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
Again.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
If you are enjoying the podcast, want to listen to more,
want to follow, you can do so. We saw the
Devil on Instagram. Thank you again for your patience and
for listening. And with that, guys, until next crime