January 30, 2024 • 44 mins
For this episode, Robin covers The Alphabet Murders, an unsolved series of murders in 1970s Rochester, NY that are linked together by one very, very odd detail. Who killed these three young girls?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Sunny spaces, smiling faces, happyplaces. But every sunny space holds a
shadow. Behind every smile, oursharp teeth, and every happy place has
something sinister lurking just below the surface. Welcome to We Saw the Devil,
the podcast diving deep into the chillingrealms of true crime. Join your host
(00:26):
Robin as she unravels mysteries that haveleft investigators baffled and armchair sleuths obsessed.
Be forewarned, dear listener, WeSaw the Devil is not for the faint
of heart. Our unflinching exploration willtake you to the darkest corners of the
psyche, and through the unimaginable depthsof human darkness, to unearthed stark secrets,
(00:46):
to the harsh light of day.Nothing will be left untouched. Are
you ready? Are you sure?We Saw the Devil? Hello everyone,
you are listening to We Saw theDevil. This is Robin and today I'm
here as promised, with an episodeon the Alphabet Murders aka the Alphabet Killer
(01:11):
aka the Double Initial Murders. Idon't know what possessed me to cover this
case. I think I've been readinga lot of true crime statistics lately,
referencing you know, quote unquote thegood old days versus where we are now
and the fact that crime is actuallyfinally rising after we've enjoyed many years at
this point of crime decreasing. I'llget into it in a moment, but
(01:34):
yeah, I'm just really, reallyreally tired of reading articles NonStop about men
victimizing young women or young girls.Like, I'm just so tired of it.
I've been sitting on this case fora while, I've known about it
for a while. It is unsolved. So this case, if you're looking
for a happy ending wrapped up ina nice little bow, unfortunately you're not
(01:57):
going to get it with this episode. But as I was reading statistics and
whatnot, it got me thinking aboutthis case and I decided that I wanted
to talk about it. But beforewe get into that, just really quick
housekeeping. You're listening to We Sawthe Devil. I'm your host, Robin.
You can check the website out atWeesawthedevil dot com. Most importantly,
I'm really trying to do better aboutbeing on top of social media, so
(02:20):
you can follow our Instagram at WeSaw the Devil podcast, and if you
want to get to know me andfollow me personally basically my dog's and my
food. Let's just keep it real. You can follow me on Instagram as
well at Robin Underscore WSTD. Ifyou're liking the content, please, if
you haven't, take just ten secondsout of your day to leave a five
star review on iTunes or whatever platformyou're listening on. It means the absolute
(02:45):
world to us and helps with avariety of things like sponsorship and things like
that. So if you could pleasefind it in the kindness and goodness of
your heart to leave a review,and not just my show, literally any
content creator that your podcaster, thatyou follow or subscribe to take the extra
five seconds and leave them a fivestar review. It directly impacts more things
(03:08):
than you realize. In the previousepisode, I discussed how the next one
was going to be about a countyhere in Tennessee that is notorious for corruption
and basically an inordinate amount of murderin chaos. So that episode is actually
in progress. I am working withsomeone on that, but I just really
(03:30):
wanted to come in with this onebecause I was feeling particularly bothered today.
But rest assured. The Hometown slashHome State episode about here in Tennessee is
coming. And I also just wantto address one final thing too lately,
especially with the publication of the lastChristian episode. You know, I have
my usual listeners, the people whoare really excited about Christchian. I have
(03:52):
heard the detractors loud and clear.I realize that some of you are very
very much not into the Chris Chanseries. If you're bored with that,
I'm sorry. One person on Instagrambasically said I had to unsubscribe from you
after the Chris Chan stuff. Iloved your content before, but I am
(04:13):
over it, to which I saysorry. I find Chris Chan interesting because
how many criminals are out walking aroundbasically streaming themselves on YouTube. I don't
know. It's the fact that someonewho's committed such heinous acts like he has,
and it's like he has a millionlives, he's never going to see
(04:34):
a day in prison unless something heinoushappens, And I just find it all
super interesting. But I realized thatthere are handfuls of you who are over
it, and you're just gonna haveto suck it up for a little bit
longer. I've heard you loud andclear. We are almost at the tail
end, you know. I'm tryingto do the fifty to fifty thing of
(04:56):
actual straight true crime and Chris ChanSo there's a little sub thing for everyone,
like I'm doing my best. Thankyou guys for your patients. It's
almost over. Okay, we're probablyabout eighty five percent of the way there.
You probably have four or five moreepisodes and the series will conclude.
But I digress. So let's getinto it and discuss the ABC Killers.
(05:21):
If you follow true crime, youprobably are like me. Whenever I hear
someone talk about the quote unquote goodold days, I just kind of laughed
to myself because I feel like mostof society, especially people who aren't into
true crime, don't really care aboutit, probably haven't looked at the crime
statistics or you know, understand anyof that. And they talk about the
(05:43):
good old days, you know,usually kind of a throwback to mid century,
the fifties, sixties, people weredecent and blah blah blah, lots
lots of talk like that. Well, yeah, you know, people like
to wax nostalgic about neighborhood cookouts,fireworks, block parties. You know,
kids riding their bicycles, doing paperroots, staying outside until the street lamp
(06:05):
and street lights came on and thesun goes down. I mean, I
myself grew up in the late eighties, early nineties, especially the early nineties,
and I went home when my momstepped outside and yelled dinner. You
know, I get it. Iget that level that sense of security and
carelessness that a lot of kids had, especially a lot of parents as well.
(06:29):
You know, you're in a littlesubdivision all as well. It's picture
perfect, the white picket fence andall of that. Surely nothing could happen.
And out of my own curiosity,I decided to take a look at
historical FBI crime statistics right off ofthe FBI's website, as well as supplemented
that information with the Global Missing Children'sNetwork. And I'm not going to get
(06:49):
into all of the statistics and whatnot, but it was pretty concerning. What
I learned is that every year,y'all, I'm talking every year, eight
million kids disappear. Now, Iknow we're talking about the scale of the
globe, right the global population,that every single year, eight million kids
(07:12):
go missing. Of that eight million, roughly forty nine percent it's a case
of family kidnapping. Parents are goingthrough a divorce, and the mom takes
off with the child, or thedad takes off with a child an uncle
something like that. Family kidnapping accountsfor forty nine percent of child kidnappings,
and that number is just insane tome. But another thing that I just
(07:35):
found really interesting is there's this oneparticular graph on the FBI's website, and
it shows basically your full scale ofcrime statistics. So you have rape,
murder, of violent crime, burglary, things like that. You have the
US population by year, and thenthe rate per one hundred thousand people for
(07:59):
each item. And it's really reallyfascinating to me because you can look at
the seventies, which a lot ofus know, the nineteen seventies especially considered
by many to be kind of likethe quote unquote serial killer heyday, where
there were so many operating technology hadn'tadvanced DNA technology and investigative tools hadn't quite
(08:20):
percolated or been born into into existenceyet, so you didn't have cameras and
cell phones with cameras and technology andyou know, CCTV and things like that.
None of that existed. So wascrime bad or off the chain?
Violent crime and all of that.You know, back in the nineteen seventies.
(08:41):
This particular graph starts in nineteen seventy. Yes, it was off the
fucking chain. And what I foundthe most interesting is that you can look
at the population as the population absolutelyexplodes every single year, grows drastically from
nineteen seventy to twenty twenty two,and the crime starts high, it goes
(09:05):
down, it skyrockets in the earlynineteen nineties, which I'm sure a lot
of you guys remember New York City. They said in the early nineteen nineties,
you can watch even documentaries on YouTubeon it. It was hell,
quite literally hell. It was acriminal, just crime ridden cesspool. The
rest of the country was kind ofa similar story there. Crime literally spiked
(09:26):
nationwide in the early nineties, andthen now in like twenty twenty two,
you have high population, but rapecases have just absolutely skyrocketed in the last
couple of years. And it's reallyinteresting to note that a lot of that
is post Me Too movement, AndI just have to kind of wonder to
myself, especially when it comes torape, if the Me Too movement had
(09:50):
a lot to do with that technology, changing sentiments, feminism, you know,
all of that stuff may have alot to do with more being reported,
more women coming forward and actually reportingan assault. But it's really crazy
to look at crime statistics and belike, wow, rape is actually going
off the chain while a lot ofother things have been decreasing, but now
(10:15):
violent crimes are increasing again. Andwe can talk about COVID and a bunch
of other factors too in that.But it's really kind of interesting to see
that where we are right now,some things are actually getting way better.
I think we all know that itprobably happened even on a wider scale back
in the nineteen fifties, sixties andseventies. I'm sure a lot more women
(10:35):
are reporting it these days. Sojust a couple statistics that actually kind of
surprised me there. And lately,like I said, I have been watching
a lot of news and keeping tryingto stay up to date on various cases
that I've been following, and beinga little bit more news minded. It
seems like every single story I comeacross these days is basically some man who
(10:56):
was either turned down by a woman, he came on to her, flirted
with her, hit on her,and she rejected him, and he went
crazy and stalked and killed her,or it's a husband killing his entire family,
including the dog, kidnapping a child, and murdering a child like Megan
is missing. And so with memy personal philosophy, I have no real
(11:18):
spiritual beliefs to begin with. Iknow I'm kind of a kind of a
wet blanket in that way, butI believe in coincidence. I believe that
coincidence absolutely can happen. I don'tthink there's a divine hand stirring the pod
or having anything to do with energyor fate. I don't believe in any
(11:39):
of that. But sometimes the levelof coincidence is enough to have you cock
an eyebrow and be like, hmm, and this case is weird. So
I want to talk about this case. And like I said earlier, it
came to be known as the Alphabetmurders. You'll and you'll learn why because
that one particular piece here, thatlink between these three killings of these three
(12:03):
young girls is a very very strangecoincidence. Now, I just want to
say that in preparing for this episode, especially I'm going to talk about the
first victim in this case. Thereare multiple different accounts of Carmen Cologne's life.
It's been reported that she was bornoriginally in Rochester, New York,
and then taken to Puerto Rico,where she then grew up for basically her
(12:26):
whole life before coming back to Rochester. It's also reported that she was born
in Puerto Rico and then came tolive with her grandparents here, there was
no back and forth. All ofthese different things have been reported by very
well respected news outlets or journalists,so disclaimer, this particular victim has multiple
backstories, but either way, CarmenCologne had a very disadvantaged, rough and
(12:52):
early upbringing. Carmen Cologne was bornin nineteen sixty one in Puerto Rico to
a sixteen year old teenage with nosupport whatsoever, and it became clear to
Carmen Cologne's teachers when she was ata fairly early age that she had some
developmental disabilities. She was a coupleof years behind her classmates in terms of
(13:15):
both academics and social skills, soCarmen was a little developmentally delayed. At
home, she would have horrific nightterrors and she would occasionally urinate on herself.
Her mother would have to come inand try to hold her in order
to get these episodes to stop.Now It's unclear again as to whether her
mother moved with her to Rochester fromPuerto Rico or if she just sent her
(13:37):
to live with her grandparents there.But Carmen Cologne would find herself living in
the bulls Head neighborhood of Rochester withher maternal grandparents by her tenth birthday.
And because Carmen spoke pretty much onlySpanish because it was her native language,
when she went to school in Rochester, she actually struggled with getting acclimated.
(13:58):
She struggled with fitting in in hernew school because she couldn't speak English and
she had some developmental delays, soshe was put in special education classes.
Carmen was a sad child. Shewas lonely. She didn't have any friends,
and the one thing that brought herjoy. One of the big things
that brought her joy was her grandparents, in particular running errands with them.
(14:24):
She and her grandfather were frequently seenwalking down the street on Main Street to
go to various shops and stores andpharmacy and grocery store. Carmen really found
joy in spending time with her grandparentsbecause they had raised her for most of
her life. Because they raised herlike she was their own child. On
November sixteenth of nineteen seventy one,ten year old Carmen Cologne left her house
(14:48):
at about four fifteen pm to walka few blocks to the Jack's drug store
on West Main Street to pick upa prescription for her grandmother. And this
was actually a big day. Thiswas the first time that Carmen's grandparents let
her go alone. Every other timeher grandfather accompanied her. But her grandmother
needed the prescription. Her grandfather waslike, Okay, let's go. And
(15:11):
she begged her grandfather to let hergo alone. And this is the first
time that he did so again.Four fifteen pm, Carmen leaves her house
to walk a few blocks to Jack'sdrug store to pick up a prescription for
her grandmother. She's alone. Shewalked into the pharmacy and she spoke with
the pharmacist. Now, the pharmacistknew her well, she was there all
(15:33):
the time. Later on, thepharmacist was the first person interviewed and he
said that she seemed distracted. Again, he knew her very well now.
He ended up telling Carmen that,hey, there's a delay in the prescription
being filled. It's not filled yetyou're just gonna have to wait, there'll
be a little bit of a delay. I'll go ahead and get it for
you. And in response to that, Carmen apparently said, I got to
(15:56):
go. I got to go,and she seemed slightly agitated, possibly worried.
She turned around and walked out ofthe store. Now eyewitnesses in later
interviews would say that she walked directlyup to a car that had apparently been
waiting for her in idle and gotin the car then drove away. Unfortunately,
(16:18):
no one was able to provide aphysical description of who was driving the
car. Two days later, aboutthirteen miles away, in a city called
Churchville, two boys were walking bya water tower and came across a pair
of feet. They initially thought thatit was a large doll, but they
quickly realized that it was actually thedeceased body of a young girl. They
ended up calling the police. Investigatorswere able to confirm that that was in
(16:42):
fact the deceased body of ten yearold Carmen Cologne. She had died from
manual strangulation from the front, andshe had also been raped, and the
police put all of their resources intothis case. What's so fascinating and so
so so disturbing to me is theamount of people that when police, when
(17:03):
this came out publicly and police said, hey, we have a dead child
and opened a tip line. Theyreceived over one hundred calls. Because the
same day that she had been kidnapped, on November sixteenth, it was about
five thirty. So again she lefther house at four fifteen, She got
to the drug store fifteen minutes laterat about four thirty, left and that
(17:27):
was it, right, pulled offthe curb, probably like four thirty three
or four thirty four or five somewhererun there. An hour after that happened
on Highway four ninety West, multipledrivers witnessed a girl running away from a
car. Now imagine the car onlike the shoulder of the road. The
driver is putting that car in reverse, and there's someone running away from the
(17:51):
car. More than thirty people witnessedCarmen Cologne running from a car distraught.
She was naked from the waist downand she was attempting to flag down cars.
Again, more than thirty people witnesseda clear child naked for a female
(18:15):
child naked from the waist down,crying, distraught, running away from a
vehicle and trying to flag down cars, and not a single person called police
when that happened. And I readan interview with the police department with and
I read an interview with an officerfrom that time, and he said that
(18:37):
that fact disturbed him so completely thatno one reached out to help or call
police or even say, hey,I saw something. It maybe nothing,
but here's what I saw. Andso he was so disturbed and angered by
it he started to ask the callers, why didn't you or why didn't you
pull over to see what was goingon? It was for reas like I'd
(19:00):
had a long day at work andI just wanted to get home, or
I was going too fast, orit wasn't my business. I mean,
just for little things like that,people didn't even call police. Can you
imagine driving down the road and seeinga naked child running and screaming from a
car, like I would be onmy cell phone in a matter of seconds.
(19:21):
Now, granted I realized they didn'thave cell phones back then, but
someone could have pulled over or investigatedthemselves, or immediately gone to the nearest
payphone, like there were methods,and not a single person made a phone
call even after they got home.You know, there is the thing called
the Biastander effect, which is wherepeople, you know, witness a crime,
a heinous crime, when they don'tdo anything. One of the biggest,
(19:45):
one of the biggest examples of thisis the nineteen sixty four murder of
Kitty. She was the twenty eightyear old bartender who was raped and stabbed
outside of an apartment building. Andshe, if you recalled, lived in
Queens in New York City. Andit's actually false attributed to the bystander effect
because the Biastander effect is very specificallyfor people who witness the act itself.
(20:10):
And in Kitty's case, thirty sevenbiastanders heard the commotion, but they didn't
actually know that she was being stabbed. There was actually a newspaper article again
kind of clickbait headline. They hadthem back then too, that said thirty
seven who saw murder, didn't callthe police, apathy, it's stabbing of
Queen's woman, shocks inspector and wasthere a little bit, yeah, but
(20:33):
it was grossly, grossly overstated theamount of people who actually saw her getting
stabbed to death. Its stints comeforward that people heard a commotion, but
they weren't aware of what was happening. I think for me, the Bistander
effect case that absolutely drives me upa wall and just makes me want to
(20:55):
hulk smash everything is the subway.I believe it was Philadelphia where a woman
was literally raped on the subway ona train and there were people just chilling
watching it happen. No one intervened, no one tried to help, No
one even tried to contact or callpolice or you know, pull him off
of her. He literally raped heron the subway for multiple stops, and
(21:18):
many people just sat there and chilledthat. Just if you want to send
my blood pressure into orbit, thatis discussing that case is what does it?
So? Carmen had been seen runningfrom a car and he ended up
apprehending her again, all hell brokeloose. There was a six thousand dollars
(21:40):
reward for information leading to the captureof who killed Carmen Cologne. There were
billboards everywhere that read do you knowwho killed Carmen Cologne? With the information
that investigators had, it really justput everyone on edge and nothing else really
happened until seven nineteen months later,April of nineteen seventy three, eleven year
(22:04):
old Wanda Walkovich. Around four thirtypm on April second, nineteen seventy three,
Wanda walked to a local grocery storeabout four blocks from her home to
pick up some items for her mom. She left from her school. She
went to the grocery store and shewas just going to pick up some groceries
and go home. She checked out, paid and began to walk and she
(22:26):
never arrived. By eight pm thatsame night, Wanda's mom called police to
report her missing, and she wasdirectly thinking about Carmen Cologne when she made
that call, fearing the worst andthe glaring potential connection in mind. More
than fifty police officers descended upon theneighborhood to search the area and interview any
(22:47):
witnesses, and there were eyewitnesses.A few people actually said that they saw
Wanda walking down the street, strugglingwith two large bags of groceries, and
she was talking to someone in acar. They said that she was distracted
and engaged with the person and kindof like looking inside of it. Later
that same evening, off Route oneoh four near the town of Webster,
(23:08):
New York, a New York Statetrooper came across Wanda's body at the bottom
of a ravine next to a road. She too had been raped and sexually
assaulted. And again, the deathof Carmen Cologne was still fresh in everyone's
mind, so investigators immediately tried tocompare the two and see kind of you
(23:30):
know where that was going. Startingwith Wanda Walkawitz. Okay, her dad
was dead, her mom was unemployed. She came from a poor, low
socioeconomic status. You know, itwas kind of a sad situation of her
family was very, very poor.Her dad was dead, her mom had
a boyfriend. The boyfriend had severemental health issues and a lengthy criminal record.
(23:55):
And Wanda was known as a fighter, like, she was constantly fighting
people. She was a little bitheavier of a girl. She had bright
red hair. She was made funof and picked on a lot and bullied,
and she was a fighter. Shewas street smart in that way.
Just two days before her disappearance,a man had actually harassed her and I
(24:17):
believe it was a cousin of hers, and offered her a dime for a
kiss and then followed her around.I think it was like a local festival,
like you know, fair type ofthing. She basically told him to
leave her alone. Like Wanda,from the sound of it, wasn't a
child that was like, Okay,you're offering me a candy bar, I'll
get in the van. She justshe had street smarts. Now talking about
(24:41):
evidence, okay, like what happenedto Wanda. So a couple points here
that are really important. They foundduring the autopsy that Wanda had been fed
a hamburger between four point thirty goingto the grocery store to pick up some
groceries, to walking down the sideof the road talking to this person in
their car and disappearing at some popoint between that and when she was unlived.
(25:03):
She had been fed a hamburger.Carmen, on the other hand,
had not been fed. Also,in Wanda's clothing, they found white cat
hairs. They did not find cathairs on Carmen's clothing, and Wanda had
white cat hairs on her body.Carmen did not. Now The way that
they were dumped was largely the same. Wanda was dumped on basically a hill
(25:26):
where it seemed like it was easyto access. It was just on the
side the perpetrator. The murderer likelykind of rolled up to the top of
the hill and unfortunately sadly dumped herbody. Carmen's body was found just on
a water tower, just kind ofout in the open on the side of
the road. There was no attemptto cover her body or conceal it in
any way. When Carmen was found, she was partially naked from the waist
(25:49):
down. When Wanda was found,she was fully clothed. Yes, she
too had been sexually assaulted. However, she was fully clothed so after the
act she was actually dressed. Themethods in which they were murdered it was
actually different. Yes, both werekilled from strangulation. That being said,
(26:11):
Carman was killed from a frontal strangulation. What that means is someone in very
close proximity put their hands directly aroundCarmen's neck and strangled her to death.
For Wanda, it was rear strangulation. So someone had been behind Wanda and
(26:33):
put say a belt or similar ligaturearound her neck and killed her that way
from behind. Wanda fought back tremendouslyand had a series of defensive wounds.
Both Carmen and Wanda were abducted inbusy public places grocery store, pharmacy.
They weren't, you know, ruralor remote or anything like that. They
(26:56):
were in busy public spaces. I'vealready been that the disposal sites were very
similar. They were both rural outsideof Rochester, and it does appear that
they were just kind of randomly dumpedwithout planning or care. But then the
most interesting aspect of it is thatinvestigators immediately noticed that their initials were all
(27:18):
the same. So you have CarmenCologne initials CC. Carmen was dumped in
a city called Churchville, also startingwith the sea, So you have C
C C Carmen Cologne, Churchville,Wanda Wanda Walkowitz was dumped in Webster.
(27:41):
So again, www, you havepairs of three. Absolute panic in the
city of Rochester. Of course,after Carmen Cologne, now Wanda Walkowitz,
like, people were going WTF whatis going on here? Children were terrified.
Parents kept their children inside, Theywouldn't let them go out and play.
A lot of people have stepped forwardand talked about, you know,
(28:03):
growing up in that time and howterrifying it was. Could it be the
neighbor, Could it be the teacher, Could it have been be the preacher,
Could it be my ex husband?Who knows? There was an absolute
panic and everyone, especially parents,everyone was terrified. A massive, massive,
massive investigation was launched, but therewere no arrests whatsoever. And at
this point, after Wanda Wuokowitz wasmurdered, there was an official tip line
(28:29):
established for this case and a tenthousand dollars reward offered for anyone who can
provide information that would lead to anarrest of a suspect. Now everyone was
holding their breath to see if thiswould happen again. Was it over?
I mean, seventeen months is alot of time right between between these two
events. Well, it only tooksix months, but yes, it did
(28:51):
happen again. And her name wasMichelle Mayenza. Michelle Mayenza had a very
similar backstory to the other two girlssocioeconomic status, lived in a poor area
of Rochester. She was severely bulliedby her classmates. She had absolutely no
friends whatsoever. So in November twentysixth, nineteen seventy three, the Monday
(29:15):
after Thanksgiving, like the first Mondayafter Thanksgiving, Michelle went into her school's
nurse's office because she was being bulliedby her classmates. After school, she
decided to go to a local marketfor her mom to pick up some groceries,
and after that no one ever sawher again, much like what happened
with Carmen. After she was reportedmissing, witnesses came forward and said that
(29:38):
they saw her sitting in a man'scar outside of a Hamburger stand. She
was in the passenger seat and hewent to the stand. He came back,
grabbed food, came back with abag full of food, and then
they drove away at ten thirty am, two days after her disappearance. At
ten thirty am on November twenty eighth, nineteen seventy three, just two days
(30:00):
after Michelle's disappearance, the Walworth volunteerfire chief discovered the body of a young
girl laying face down in a ditch. The location was Macedon, New York,
and an autopsy would go on toconfirm that yes, this body,
fifteen miles outside of Rochester, wasin fact eleven year old Michelle Mayenza.
(30:26):
Just like Wanda Walkowitz, there wereligature marks that revealed that she had been
strangled from behind, this time possiblywith a thin rope. She had also
been raped, but she in particularhad suffered from extensive blunt force trauma to
the head. Also, like Wanda, there was white cat hair discovered on
her clothing, and when Michelle wasfound her hands were still holding a clump
(30:49):
of leaves that were present in thatarea. So basically, Michelle had been
strangled to death, most likely onthe ground where she was found in maybe
even just left. As police launchedthe investigation into what could have happened to
her, witnesses once again came forward. The name of this episode should be
(31:10):
like y'all are assholes? A storyabout witnesses, But multiple witnesses came forward
and said that they saw a beigeor tan car driving away at a high
rate of speed down through Rochester inthe neighborhood near the Hamburger stand. Another
witness said that they were able tosee a distraught girl crying as the car
(31:32):
was driving by, and based ona picture, they were able to identify
that child as Michelle Maenza. Andthen one of the worst cases is that
this brown car was seen pulled offon the shoulder of the road in what
looked like it had a flat tire. This was at five thirty PM,
so about an hour after Michelle Mayenzawent missing. This man came upon this
(31:56):
scene, he saw it and hedecided to pull over to see if he
could help. He said that whenhe got out of the car, the
driver of the car, a manbetween twenty five and thirty five, basically
gave him a death stare, hada huge grip on her wrist and was
a young girl was standing with thisman. He had his hand on her
(32:17):
wrist and tried to kind of pushher behind him, and then also obscure
the license plate number. The witnesssaid that the man was scary, that
it was unsettling that he was aggressive, and so the driver just left.
He left, and he did notcall, and he did not call police,
(32:37):
and he did not report the incident. At this point, a physical
description of the man was widely circulatedin newspapers, and a sketch artist came
in to draw the eyewitness accounts,starting with the man who stopped to see
if the stranger needed car help.The physical description agreed upon by the witnesses
was that it was a dark hairedCaucasian man between the ages of twenty five
(33:00):
and thirty five. He was aboutsix feet tall and weighed about one hundred
and sixty five pounds. At thetime of this particular incident, he was
wearing a dark colored ski type vestand jeans tucked into a pair of brown
cowboy boots with buckles on either side. He also had a very short beard
and dirty fingernails. This particular descriptionalso matched the identity of the man seen
(33:23):
at Carol's restaurant getting the burger forMichelle. So to recap the evenence so
far, Carmen. Carmen was killedwith manual front strangulation. Wanda and Michelle
were killed with rope or belt frombehind rear strangulation. Wanda and Michelle had
cat hair on their clothes, notCarmen. Wanda and Michelle were fed within
(33:49):
an hour before their deaths, sopost kidnapping, pre death, not Carmen.
All of the dumping grounds were prettysimilar and the victim profile while was
largely the same, loner girls,low self esteem, some developmental delays,
and then in between ten and elevenyears old. There were no leads in
(34:09):
this case pretty much at all,but police had a variety of suspect so
just to go over a couple ofthese, the number one suspect that came.
Like I said, this case wentdead for years because there was just
no information. Eyewitnesses came forward gavetheir accounts that was it well, Ken
(34:29):
Beyonc. And if that name ringsthe bell, it's because it is in
fact likely familiar. Ken Beyonce wasarrested in nineteen seventy nine after it was
discovered that he was half of thenotorious Hillside Strangler, which ended up being
stranglers because his cousin Angelo Buono alsoassisted in kidnapping, raping, torturing and
murdering more than ten women in LosAngeles, I mean, Los Angeles was
(34:53):
literally in shambles and in living interror when the Hillside Strangler was active.
Well, you see, Kim Biancihad actually lived in Rochester during the murders
of Carmen, Wanda and Michelle.He wasn't in jail, He was freely
(35:14):
living in Rochester before he ended upmoving to Los Angeles and then he and
his cousin decided to become like psychopathicserial killers. The problem is that Kim
Biyonci's victims were all adult females.And not only that, but it's also
very rare that there's any type ofcrossover in terms of a killer's ideal victim
(35:36):
profile, especially when it comes tosexual crimes of that nature like sex murders.
Kim Bianci was the number one suspect, I mean law enforcement. I
read interviews and they were talking abouthow excited they were at the possibility.
And that only lasted so long becausethere was actually a palm print found on
Michelle Mayenza's body, and after kimByonci was rested and processed, investigators obviously
(36:02):
shared information and the palm print wasnot a match for Ken Bianci, so
he was officially released as a suspect. And what I find so interesting and
why I mentioned earlier on in theepisode that I don't necessarily believe in coincidence,
is that Michelle Maenza mm her bodywas dumped in massedon New York,
(36:27):
So again you have m m M. Is it coincidence? Was it planned?
Investigators really didn't know. And thefinal kind of say, the final
opinion from a lot of the investigatorsthat I've seen is that it was just
pure coincidence and not connected at all. I'm sure they know more and have
more information than I do. Thatbeing said, I kind of believe in
(36:52):
Aukham's raiser, and that's basically,you know something's going on, it's most
likely ninety nine point nine percent ofthe time, the most likely thing is
true, and I feel like thisis very rare mm cc ww. Each
child found dumped in a city nearbywith a corresponding initial of their name.
(37:16):
That being said, investigators disagreed withme and thought that it was just completely
random because also in terms of CarmenCologne's death, her uncle, Miguel Cologne,
was actually the number one suspect inher death. Investigators decided that only
Wanda and Michelle's murders were likely connecteddue to the presence of the cat here
(37:37):
and so forth, and that CarmenCologne was likely murdered by someone else,
and uncle Miguel happened to fit thatbill. And that's because he fled to
Puerto Rico when investigators attempted to officiallyinterrogate him. Just four days after Carmen
was found dead, Miguel fled thecountry. He moved from Rochester to Puerto
(38:00):
Rico. He told no one exceptfor one close friend, and this friend
claims that he told him that hehad to leave the country because he had
quote done something very wrong in Rochester. So whether that was him admitting that
to a friend that he had somethingto do with it, or a lie,
(38:20):
you know, that's being reported.Who knows what good did come out
of that is that after he fledthe country, investigators were able to search
his car again. This would bethe week that Carmen went missing. Investigators
discovered that he had just recently inthe last two weeks purchased a brown car
very similar to the one discussed ineyewitness accounts of all three girls, and
(38:43):
the car had been scrubbed clean.All is well, and good people clean
their cars, it would make sensethat they did, except investigators actually called
the car dealership where Uncle Miguel gotthis car from and asked about their cleaning
process for new cars, and thedealership advised that they do not clean trunks
with cleaning chemicals, so someone hadto have done that post purchase. Police
(39:08):
were actually never able to find anyconcrete evidence that would link to Miguel Cologne
or allow a DA to file chargesagainst him. In nineteen ninety one,
Miguel actually ended up attacking his wifeand brother, and he shot them multiple
times. But when the police cameand they were making contact, Miguel took
(39:28):
out a gun and committed suicide infront of them. Investigators had a wide
theory, you know, they believedthat Wanda and Michelle's murders were separate from
Carmen's. They believed that Carmen's mostlikely was her uncle. They believed that
the killer could be a school employeefrom Rochester's the school district. It could
be a teacher, a school employee, a social worker. A lot of
(39:52):
analysts, investigators believed that it wassomeone that had to have known the girls
because two of them at least willinglygot into a car with this person.
And then there's a third suspect,and honestly, this is the one that
I find for me, at leastit ticks the boxes. And that was
Dennis Termini, a twenty five yearold Rochester firefighter. A couple weeks after
(40:17):
the death of Michelle, Termany literallytried to snatch a teenage girl off the
street, except she wouldn't stop screaming, so he had to let her go,
And then he tried to do itagain, except this time it was
witnessed by police officers. After agame of cat and mouse, Termany would
eventually find himself backed into a cornertotally after going on a high speed chase
(40:40):
with police and all of this shit, and he actually ended up committing suicide
before he was arrested. Now afterhis death, they weren't able to determine
that he was, in fact theRochester garage rapist, basically the most prolific
race basically the most prolific rapist atthat time. He was responsible for more
(41:02):
than a dozen rapes between nineteen seventyone and nineteen seventy three. They're in
Rochester. Not only all of that, which I know is a lot,
right, but Termany owned a beigecar that precisely matched all of the other
eyewitness accounts. It was identical topeople who were present at the abductions.
(41:24):
So, surprise, surprise, Turmanyowned a beige vehicle that was nearly identical
to the ones observed by multiple witnessesat each of the other abductions, i
e. Michelle and Wanda. Secondly, he was known to live on Box
Street, which is less than onemile from from where Michelle Mainza was last
(41:45):
seen. And when police get this, y'all, when police actually searched his
vehicle early on, they discovered amap that was folded and marked, and
it was marked at the exact placewhere Michelle's body was dumped. So just
tying all of this together, youhave Carmen Cologne, who was murdered via
(42:07):
the front manual strangulation, who ismurdered in frontal stregulation. This year marks
This year marks fifty two years sincethe murders, and no one has been
brought to justice for it, eventhough investigators have received hundreds of leads at
that time. But this year,you, guys, marks the fifty two
(42:30):
year anniversary since these three murders.So I don't know, guys. I
just I was thinking about this caseand thought it would be one to cover.
It's really heinous, really awful.It's terrifying that the suspect has not
been caught yet. I guess Oneother potential useful piece of information is that
there is a girl. Her nameis Alexis Ortiz. She's been all over
(42:52):
TikTok saying that she believes that hergrandfather was the case. We've seen that
happen in various cases, right,I believe I, you know, grandpa
or father, whatever is this serialkiller. The thing about it, though,
is that they actually did a DNAtest. Now, I have scoured
the internet high and low to seeif I can find the results of this
(43:13):
test because it was done in twentytwenty two and I can't. However,
none of the information has changed theoverall narrative of the story that it has
unsolved, So I assume that itcame back with no attachment, you know,
with no match, but yeah,it is still unsolved. That's for
today, guys, Thank you somuch for listening. Greatly appreciate it.
(43:35):
Next episode is going to be Christian, so please prepare yourself mentally for that.
And then I'm also working with afriend to discuss that county in Tennessee
where things just seem a little off. So we're going to talk about all
of the craziness, chaos, andmurder that's happened here in this particular county.
And then also Iris is actually goingto be rejoining me to do the
Tamla Horsford case. That is acase that I have been obsessed with since
(43:59):
it transpired, since it happened,and so I'm going to throw it over
to Iris, who was in themilitary, had met training and then also
worked as an autopsy technician for years, and we are going to discuss the
autopsy as well as all of theevents that transpired that night and see if
we can make sense of what happenedagain. Guys, you've been listening to
(44:21):
We Saw the Devil. I'm Robin, don't forget to check out the website
wesawdedevil dot com. From there,you can find us across all social media,
chiefly We Saw the Devil podcast isthe podcast on Instagram, and if
you want to follow me on Instagram, you can do so at Robin Underscore
WSTD Until next crime
Sunny spaces, smiling faces, happyplaces. But every sunny space holds a
shadow. Behind every smile, oursharp teeth, and every happy place has
something sinister lurking just below the surface. Welcome to We Saw the Devil,
the podcast diving deep into the chillingrealms of true crime. Join your host
(00:26):
Robin as she unravels mysteries that haveleft investigators baffled and armchair sleuths obsessed.
Be forewarned, dear listener, WeSaw the Devil is not for the faint
of heart. Our unflinching exploration willtake you to the darkest corners of the
psyche, and through the unimaginable depthsof human darkness, to unearthed stark secrets,
(00:46):
to the harsh light of day.Nothing will be left untouched. Are
you ready? Are you sure?We Saw the Devil? Hello everyone,
you are listening to We Saw theDevil. This is Robin and today I'm
here as promised, with an episodeon the Alphabet Murders aka the Alphabet Killer
(01:11):
aka the Double Initial Murders. Idon't know what possessed me to cover this
case. I think I've been readinga lot of true crime statistics lately,
referencing you know, quote unquote thegood old days versus where we are now
and the fact that crime is actuallyfinally rising after we've enjoyed many years at
this point of crime decreasing. I'llget into it in a moment, but
(01:34):
yeah, I'm just really, reallyreally tired of reading articles NonStop about men
victimizing young women or young girls.Like, I'm just so tired of it.
I've been sitting on this case fora while, I've known about it
for a while. It is unsolved. So this case, if you're looking
for a happy ending wrapped up ina nice little bow, unfortunately you're not
(01:57):
going to get it with this episode. But as I was reading statistics and
whatnot, it got me thinking aboutthis case and I decided that I wanted
to talk about it. But beforewe get into that, just really quick
housekeeping. You're listening to We Sawthe Devil. I'm your host, Robin.
You can check the website out atWeesawthedevil dot com. Most importantly,
I'm really trying to do better aboutbeing on top of social media, so
(02:20):
you can follow our Instagram at WeSaw the Devil podcast, and if you
want to get to know me andfollow me personally basically my dog's and my
food. Let's just keep it real. You can follow me on Instagram as
well at Robin Underscore WSTD. Ifyou're liking the content, please, if
you haven't, take just ten secondsout of your day to leave a five
star review on iTunes or whatever platformyou're listening on. It means the absolute
(02:45):
world to us and helps with avariety of things like sponsorship and things like
that. So if you could pleasefind it in the kindness and goodness of
your heart to leave a review,and not just my show, literally any
content creator that your podcaster, thatyou follow or subscribe to take the extra
five seconds and leave them a fivestar review. It directly impacts more things
(03:08):
than you realize. In the previousepisode, I discussed how the next one
was going to be about a countyhere in Tennessee that is notorious for corruption
and basically an inordinate amount of murderin chaos. So that episode is actually
in progress. I am working withsomeone on that, but I just really
(03:30):
wanted to come in with this onebecause I was feeling particularly bothered today.
But rest assured. The Hometown slashHome State episode about here in Tennessee is
coming. And I also just wantto address one final thing too lately,
especially with the publication of the lastChristian episode. You know, I have
my usual listeners, the people whoare really excited about Christchian. I have
(03:52):
heard the detractors loud and clear.I realize that some of you are very
very much not into the Chris Chanseries. If you're bored with that,
I'm sorry. One person on Instagrambasically said I had to unsubscribe from you
after the Chris Chan stuff. Iloved your content before, but I am
(04:13):
over it, to which I saysorry. I find Chris Chan interesting because
how many criminals are out walking aroundbasically streaming themselves on YouTube. I don't
know. It's the fact that someonewho's committed such heinous acts like he has,
and it's like he has a millionlives, he's never going to see
(04:34):
a day in prison unless something heinoushappens, And I just find it all
super interesting. But I realized thatthere are handfuls of you who are over
it, and you're just gonna haveto suck it up for a little bit
longer. I've heard you loud andclear. We are almost at the tail
end, you know. I'm tryingto do the fifty to fifty thing of
(04:56):
actual straight true crime and Chris ChanSo there's a little sub thing for everyone,
like I'm doing my best. Thankyou guys for your patients. It's
almost over. Okay, we're probablyabout eighty five percent of the way there.
You probably have four or five moreepisodes and the series will conclude.
But I digress. So let's getinto it and discuss the ABC Killers.
(05:21):
If you follow true crime, youprobably are like me. Whenever I hear
someone talk about the quote unquote goodold days, I just kind of laughed
to myself because I feel like mostof society, especially people who aren't into
true crime, don't really care aboutit, probably haven't looked at the crime
statistics or you know, understand anyof that. And they talk about the
(05:43):
good old days, you know,usually kind of a throwback to mid century,
the fifties, sixties, people weredecent and blah blah blah, lots
lots of talk like that. Well, yeah, you know, people like
to wax nostalgic about neighborhood cookouts,fireworks, block parties. You know,
kids riding their bicycles, doing paperroots, staying outside until the street lamp
(06:05):
and street lights came on and thesun goes down. I mean, I
myself grew up in the late eighties, early nineties, especially the early nineties,
and I went home when my momstepped outside and yelled dinner. You
know, I get it. Iget that level that sense of security and
carelessness that a lot of kids had, especially a lot of parents as well.
(06:29):
You know, you're in a littlesubdivision all as well. It's picture
perfect, the white picket fence andall of that. Surely nothing could happen.
And out of my own curiosity,I decided to take a look at
historical FBI crime statistics right off ofthe FBI's website, as well as supplemented
that information with the Global Missing Children'sNetwork. And I'm not going to get
(06:49):
into all of the statistics and whatnot, but it was pretty concerning. What
I learned is that every year,y'all, I'm talking every year, eight
million kids disappear. Now, Iknow we're talking about the scale of the
globe, right the global population,that every single year, eight million kids
(07:12):
go missing. Of that eight million, roughly forty nine percent it's a case
of family kidnapping. Parents are goingthrough a divorce, and the mom takes
off with the child, or thedad takes off with a child an uncle
something like that. Family kidnapping accountsfor forty nine percent of child kidnappings,
and that number is just insane tome. But another thing that I just
(07:35):
found really interesting is there's this oneparticular graph on the FBI's website, and
it shows basically your full scale ofcrime statistics. So you have rape,
murder, of violent crime, burglary, things like that. You have the
US population by year, and thenthe rate per one hundred thousand people for
(07:59):
each item. And it's really reallyfascinating to me because you can look at
the seventies, which a lot ofus know, the nineteen seventies especially considered
by many to be kind of likethe quote unquote serial killer heyday, where
there were so many operating technology hadn'tadvanced DNA technology and investigative tools hadn't quite
(08:20):
percolated or been born into into existenceyet, so you didn't have cameras and
cell phones with cameras and technology andyou know, CCTV and things like that.
None of that existed. So wascrime bad or off the chain?
Violent crime and all of that.You know, back in the nineteen seventies.
(08:41):
This particular graph starts in nineteen seventy. Yes, it was off the
fucking chain. And what I foundthe most interesting is that you can look
at the population as the population absolutelyexplodes every single year, grows drastically from
nineteen seventy to twenty twenty two,and the crime starts high, it goes
(09:05):
down, it skyrockets in the earlynineteen nineties, which I'm sure a lot
of you guys remember New York City. They said in the early nineteen nineties,
you can watch even documentaries on YouTubeon it. It was hell,
quite literally hell. It was acriminal, just crime ridden cesspool. The
rest of the country was kind ofa similar story there. Crime literally spiked
(09:26):
nationwide in the early nineties, andthen now in like twenty twenty two,
you have high population, but rapecases have just absolutely skyrocketed in the last
couple of years. And it's reallyinteresting to note that a lot of that
is post Me Too movement, AndI just have to kind of wonder to
myself, especially when it comes torape, if the Me Too movement had
(09:50):
a lot to do with that technology, changing sentiments, feminism, you know,
all of that stuff may have alot to do with more being reported,
more women coming forward and actually reportingan assault. But it's really crazy
to look at crime statistics and belike, wow, rape is actually going
off the chain while a lot ofother things have been decreasing, but now
(10:15):
violent crimes are increasing again. Andwe can talk about COVID and a bunch
of other factors too in that.But it's really kind of interesting to see
that where we are right now,some things are actually getting way better.
I think we all know that itprobably happened even on a wider scale back
in the nineteen fifties, sixties andseventies. I'm sure a lot more women
(10:35):
are reporting it these days. Sojust a couple statistics that actually kind of
surprised me there. And lately,like I said, I have been watching
a lot of news and keeping tryingto stay up to date on various cases
that I've been following, and beinga little bit more news minded. It
seems like every single story I comeacross these days is basically some man who
(10:56):
was either turned down by a woman, he came on to her, flirted
with her, hit on her,and she rejected him, and he went
crazy and stalked and killed her,or it's a husband killing his entire family,
including the dog, kidnapping a child, and murdering a child like Megan
is missing. And so with memy personal philosophy, I have no real
(11:18):
spiritual beliefs to begin with. Iknow I'm kind of a kind of a
wet blanket in that way, butI believe in coincidence. I believe that
coincidence absolutely can happen. I don'tthink there's a divine hand stirring the pod
or having anything to do with energyor fate. I don't believe in any
(11:39):
of that. But sometimes the levelof coincidence is enough to have you cock
an eyebrow and be like, hmm, and this case is weird. So
I want to talk about this case. And like I said earlier, it
came to be known as the Alphabetmurders. You'll and you'll learn why because
that one particular piece here, thatlink between these three killings of these three
(12:03):
young girls is a very very strangecoincidence. Now, I just want to
say that in preparing for this episode, especially I'm going to talk about the
first victim in this case. Thereare multiple different accounts of Carmen Cologne's life.
It's been reported that she was bornoriginally in Rochester, New York,
and then taken to Puerto Rico,where she then grew up for basically her
(12:26):
whole life before coming back to Rochester. It's also reported that she was born
in Puerto Rico and then came tolive with her grandparents here, there was
no back and forth. All ofthese different things have been reported by very
well respected news outlets or journalists,so disclaimer, this particular victim has multiple
backstories, but either way, CarmenCologne had a very disadvantaged, rough and
(12:52):
early upbringing. Carmen Cologne was bornin nineteen sixty one in Puerto Rico to
a sixteen year old teenage with nosupport whatsoever, and it became clear to
Carmen Cologne's teachers when she was ata fairly early age that she had some
developmental disabilities. She was a coupleof years behind her classmates in terms of
(13:15):
both academics and social skills, soCarmen was a little developmentally delayed. At
home, she would have horrific nightterrors and she would occasionally urinate on herself.
Her mother would have to come inand try to hold her in order
to get these episodes to stop.Now It's unclear again as to whether her
mother moved with her to Rochester fromPuerto Rico or if she just sent her
(13:37):
to live with her grandparents there.But Carmen Cologne would find herself living in
the bulls Head neighborhood of Rochester withher maternal grandparents by her tenth birthday.
And because Carmen spoke pretty much onlySpanish because it was her native language,
when she went to school in Rochester, she actually struggled with getting acclimated.
(13:58):
She struggled with fitting in in hernew school because she couldn't speak English and
she had some developmental delays, soshe was put in special education classes.
Carmen was a sad child. Shewas lonely. She didn't have any friends,
and the one thing that brought herjoy. One of the big things
that brought her joy was her grandparents, in particular running errands with them.
(14:24):
She and her grandfather were frequently seenwalking down the street on Main Street to
go to various shops and stores andpharmacy and grocery store. Carmen really found
joy in spending time with her grandparentsbecause they had raised her for most of
her life. Because they raised herlike she was their own child. On
November sixteenth of nineteen seventy one,ten year old Carmen Cologne left her house
(14:48):
at about four fifteen pm to walka few blocks to the Jack's drug store
on West Main Street to pick upa prescription for her grandmother. And this
was actually a big day. Thiswas the first time that Carmen's grandparents let
her go alone. Every other timeher grandfather accompanied her. But her grandmother
needed the prescription. Her grandfather waslike, Okay, let's go. And
(15:11):
she begged her grandfather to let hergo alone. And this is the first
time that he did so again.Four fifteen pm, Carmen leaves her house
to walk a few blocks to Jack'sdrug store to pick up a prescription for
her grandmother. She's alone. Shewalked into the pharmacy and she spoke with
the pharmacist. Now, the pharmacistknew her well, she was there all
(15:33):
the time. Later on, thepharmacist was the first person interviewed and he
said that she seemed distracted. Again, he knew her very well now.
He ended up telling Carmen that,hey, there's a delay in the prescription
being filled. It's not filled yetyou're just gonna have to wait, there'll
be a little bit of a delay. I'll go ahead and get it for
you. And in response to that, Carmen apparently said, I got to
(15:56):
go. I got to go,and she seemed slightly agitated, possibly worried.
She turned around and walked out ofthe store. Now eyewitnesses in later
interviews would say that she walked directlyup to a car that had apparently been
waiting for her in idle and gotin the car then drove away. Unfortunately,
(16:18):
no one was able to provide aphysical description of who was driving the
car. Two days later, aboutthirteen miles away, in a city called
Churchville, two boys were walking bya water tower and came across a pair
of feet. They initially thought thatit was a large doll, but they
quickly realized that it was actually thedeceased body of a young girl. They
ended up calling the police. Investigatorswere able to confirm that that was in
(16:42):
fact the deceased body of ten yearold Carmen Cologne. She had died from
manual strangulation from the front, andshe had also been raped, and the
police put all of their resources intothis case. What's so fascinating and so
so so disturbing to me is theamount of people that when police, when
(17:03):
this came out publicly and police said, hey, we have a dead child
and opened a tip line. Theyreceived over one hundred calls. Because the
same day that she had been kidnapped, on November sixteenth, it was about
five thirty. So again she lefther house at four fifteen, She got
to the drug store fifteen minutes laterat about four thirty, left and that
(17:27):
was it, right, pulled offthe curb, probably like four thirty three
or four thirty four or five somewhererun there. An hour after that happened
on Highway four ninety West, multipledrivers witnessed a girl running away from a
car. Now imagine the car onlike the shoulder of the road. The
driver is putting that car in reverse, and there's someone running away from the
(17:51):
car. More than thirty people witnessedCarmen Cologne running from a car distraught.
She was naked from the waist downand she was attempting to flag down cars.
Again, more than thirty people witnesseda clear child naked for a female
(18:15):
child naked from the waist down,crying, distraught, running away from a
vehicle and trying to flag down cars, and not a single person called police
when that happened. And I readan interview with the police department with and
I read an interview with an officerfrom that time, and he said that
(18:37):
that fact disturbed him so completely thatno one reached out to help or call
police or even say, hey,I saw something. It maybe nothing,
but here's what I saw. Andso he was so disturbed and angered by
it he started to ask the callers, why didn't you or why didn't you
pull over to see what was goingon? It was for reas like I'd
(19:00):
had a long day at work andI just wanted to get home, or
I was going too fast, orit wasn't my business. I mean,
just for little things like that,people didn't even call police. Can you
imagine driving down the road and seeinga naked child running and screaming from a
car, like I would be onmy cell phone in a matter of seconds.
(19:21):
Now, granted I realized they didn'thave cell phones back then, but
someone could have pulled over or investigatedthemselves, or immediately gone to the nearest
payphone, like there were methods,and not a single person made a phone
call even after they got home.You know, there is the thing called
the Biastander effect, which is wherepeople, you know, witness a crime,
a heinous crime, when they don'tdo anything. One of the biggest,
(19:45):
one of the biggest examples of thisis the nineteen sixty four murder of
Kitty. She was the twenty eightyear old bartender who was raped and stabbed
outside of an apartment building. Andshe, if you recalled, lived in
Queens in New York City. Andit's actually false attributed to the bystander effect
because the Biastander effect is very specificallyfor people who witness the act itself.
(20:10):
And in Kitty's case, thirty sevenbiastanders heard the commotion, but they didn't
actually know that she was being stabbed. There was actually a newspaper article again
kind of clickbait headline. They hadthem back then too, that said thirty
seven who saw murder, didn't callthe police, apathy, it's stabbing of
Queen's woman, shocks inspector and wasthere a little bit, yeah, but
(20:33):
it was grossly, grossly overstated theamount of people who actually saw her getting
stabbed to death. Its stints comeforward that people heard a commotion, but
they weren't aware of what was happening. I think for me, the Bistander
effect case that absolutely drives me upa wall and just makes me want to
(20:55):
hulk smash everything is the subway.I believe it was Philadelphia where a woman
was literally raped on the subway ona train and there were people just chilling
watching it happen. No one intervened, no one tried to help, No
one even tried to contact or callpolice or you know, pull him off
of her. He literally raped heron the subway for multiple stops, and
(21:18):
many people just sat there and chilledthat. Just if you want to send
my blood pressure into orbit, thatis discussing that case is what does it?
So? Carmen had been seen runningfrom a car and he ended up
apprehending her again, all hell brokeloose. There was a six thousand dollars
(21:40):
reward for information leading to the captureof who killed Carmen Cologne. There were
billboards everywhere that read do you knowwho killed Carmen Cologne? With the information
that investigators had, it really justput everyone on edge and nothing else really
happened until seven nineteen months later,April of nineteen seventy three, eleven year
(22:04):
old Wanda Walkovich. Around four thirtypm on April second, nineteen seventy three,
Wanda walked to a local grocery storeabout four blocks from her home to
pick up some items for her mom. She left from her school. She
went to the grocery store and shewas just going to pick up some groceries
and go home. She checked out, paid and began to walk and she
(22:26):
never arrived. By eight pm thatsame night, Wanda's mom called police to
report her missing, and she wasdirectly thinking about Carmen Cologne when she made
that call, fearing the worst andthe glaring potential connection in mind. More
than fifty police officers descended upon theneighborhood to search the area and interview any
(22:47):
witnesses, and there were eyewitnesses.A few people actually said that they saw
Wanda walking down the street, strugglingwith two large bags of groceries, and
she was talking to someone in acar. They said that she was distracted
and engaged with the person and kindof like looking inside of it. Later
that same evening, off Route oneoh four near the town of Webster,
(23:08):
New York, a New York Statetrooper came across Wanda's body at the bottom
of a ravine next to a road. She too had been raped and sexually
assaulted. And again, the deathof Carmen Cologne was still fresh in everyone's
mind, so investigators immediately tried tocompare the two and see kind of you
(23:30):
know where that was going. Startingwith Wanda Walkawitz. Okay, her dad
was dead, her mom was unemployed. She came from a poor, low
socioeconomic status. You know, itwas kind of a sad situation of her
family was very, very poor.Her dad was dead, her mom had
a boyfriend. The boyfriend had severemental health issues and a lengthy criminal record.
(23:55):
And Wanda was known as a fighter, like, she was constantly fighting
people. She was a little bitheavier of a girl. She had bright
red hair. She was made funof and picked on a lot and bullied,
and she was a fighter. Shewas street smart in that way.
Just two days before her disappearance,a man had actually harassed her and I
(24:17):
believe it was a cousin of hers, and offered her a dime for a
kiss and then followed her around.I think it was like a local festival,
like you know, fair type ofthing. She basically told him to
leave her alone. Like Wanda,from the sound of it, wasn't a
child that was like, Okay,you're offering me a candy bar, I'll
get in the van. She justshe had street smarts. Now talking about
(24:41):
evidence, okay, like what happenedto Wanda. So a couple points here
that are really important. They foundduring the autopsy that Wanda had been fed
a hamburger between four point thirty goingto the grocery store to pick up some
groceries, to walking down the sideof the road talking to this person in
their car and disappearing at some popoint between that and when she was unlived.
(25:03):
She had been fed a hamburger.Carmen, on the other hand,
had not been fed. Also,in Wanda's clothing, they found white cat
hairs. They did not find cathairs on Carmen's clothing, and Wanda had
white cat hairs on her body.Carmen did not. Now The way that
they were dumped was largely the same. Wanda was dumped on basically a hill
(25:26):
where it seemed like it was easyto access. It was just on the
side the perpetrator. The murderer likelykind of rolled up to the top of
the hill and unfortunately sadly dumped herbody. Carmen's body was found just on
a water tower, just kind ofout in the open on the side of
the road. There was no attemptto cover her body or conceal it in
any way. When Carmen was found, she was partially naked from the waist
(25:49):
down. When Wanda was found,she was fully clothed. Yes, she
too had been sexually assaulted. However, she was fully clothed so after the
act she was actually dressed. Themethods in which they were murdered it was
actually different. Yes, both werekilled from strangulation. That being said,
(26:11):
Carman was killed from a frontal strangulation. What that means is someone in very
close proximity put their hands directly aroundCarmen's neck and strangled her to death.
For Wanda, it was rear strangulation. So someone had been behind Wanda and
(26:33):
put say a belt or similar ligaturearound her neck and killed her that way
from behind. Wanda fought back tremendouslyand had a series of defensive wounds.
Both Carmen and Wanda were abducted inbusy public places grocery store, pharmacy.
They weren't, you know, ruralor remote or anything like that. They
(26:56):
were in busy public spaces. I'vealready been that the disposal sites were very
similar. They were both rural outsideof Rochester, and it does appear that
they were just kind of randomly dumpedwithout planning or care. But then the
most interesting aspect of it is thatinvestigators immediately noticed that their initials were all
(27:18):
the same. So you have CarmenCologne initials CC. Carmen was dumped in
a city called Churchville, also startingwith the sea, So you have C
C C Carmen Cologne, Churchville,Wanda Wanda Walkowitz was dumped in Webster.
(27:41):
So again, www, you havepairs of three. Absolute panic in the
city of Rochester. Of course,after Carmen Cologne, now Wanda Walkowitz,
like, people were going WTF whatis going on here? Children were terrified.
Parents kept their children inside, Theywouldn't let them go out and play.
A lot of people have stepped forwardand talked about, you know,
(28:03):
growing up in that time and howterrifying it was. Could it be the
neighbor, Could it be the teacher, Could it have been be the preacher,
Could it be my ex husband?Who knows? There was an absolute
panic and everyone, especially parents,everyone was terrified. A massive, massive,
massive investigation was launched, but therewere no arrests whatsoever. And at
this point, after Wanda Wuokowitz wasmurdered, there was an official tip line
(28:29):
established for this case and a tenthousand dollars reward offered for anyone who can
provide information that would lead to anarrest of a suspect. Now everyone was
holding their breath to see if thiswould happen again. Was it over?
I mean, seventeen months is alot of time right between between these two
events. Well, it only tooksix months, but yes, it did
(28:51):
happen again. And her name wasMichelle Mayenza. Michelle Mayenza had a very
similar backstory to the other two girlssocioeconomic status, lived in a poor area
of Rochester. She was severely bulliedby her classmates. She had absolutely no
friends whatsoever. So in November twentysixth, nineteen seventy three, the Monday
(29:15):
after Thanksgiving, like the first Mondayafter Thanksgiving, Michelle went into her school's
nurse's office because she was being bulliedby her classmates. After school, she
decided to go to a local marketfor her mom to pick up some groceries,
and after that no one ever sawher again, much like what happened
with Carmen. After she was reportedmissing, witnesses came forward and said that
(29:38):
they saw her sitting in a man'scar outside of a Hamburger stand. She
was in the passenger seat and hewent to the stand. He came back,
grabbed food, came back with abag full of food, and then
they drove away at ten thirty am, two days after her disappearance. At
ten thirty am on November twenty eighth, nineteen seventy three, just two days
(30:00):
after Michelle's disappearance, the Walworth volunteerfire chief discovered the body of a young
girl laying face down in a ditch. The location was Macedon, New York,
and an autopsy would go on toconfirm that yes, this body,
fifteen miles outside of Rochester, wasin fact eleven year old Michelle Mayenza.
(30:26):
Just like Wanda Walkowitz, there wereligature marks that revealed that she had been
strangled from behind, this time possiblywith a thin rope. She had also
been raped, but she in particularhad suffered from extensive blunt force trauma to
the head. Also, like Wanda, there was white cat hair discovered on
her clothing, and when Michelle wasfound her hands were still holding a clump
(30:49):
of leaves that were present in thatarea. So basically, Michelle had been
strangled to death, most likely onthe ground where she was found in maybe
even just left. As police launchedthe investigation into what could have happened to
her, witnesses once again came forward. The name of this episode should be
(31:10):
like y'all are assholes? A storyabout witnesses, But multiple witnesses came forward
and said that they saw a beigeor tan car driving away at a high
rate of speed down through Rochester inthe neighborhood near the Hamburger stand. Another
witness said that they were able tosee a distraught girl crying as the car
(31:32):
was driving by, and based ona picture, they were able to identify
that child as Michelle Maenza. Andthen one of the worst cases is that
this brown car was seen pulled offon the shoulder of the road in what
looked like it had a flat tire. This was at five thirty PM,
so about an hour after Michelle Mayenzawent missing. This man came upon this
(31:56):
scene, he saw it and hedecided to pull over to see if he
could help. He said that whenhe got out of the car, the
driver of the car, a manbetween twenty five and thirty five, basically
gave him a death stare, hada huge grip on her wrist and was
a young girl was standing with thisman. He had his hand on her
(32:17):
wrist and tried to kind of pushher behind him, and then also obscure
the license plate number. The witnesssaid that the man was scary, that
it was unsettling that he was aggressive, and so the driver just left.
He left, and he did notcall, and he did not call police,
(32:37):
and he did not report the incident. At this point, a physical
description of the man was widely circulatedin newspapers, and a sketch artist came
in to draw the eyewitness accounts,starting with the man who stopped to see
if the stranger needed car help.The physical description agreed upon by the witnesses
was that it was a dark hairedCaucasian man between the ages of twenty five
(33:00):
and thirty five. He was aboutsix feet tall and weighed about one hundred
and sixty five pounds. At thetime of this particular incident, he was
wearing a dark colored ski type vestand jeans tucked into a pair of brown
cowboy boots with buckles on either side. He also had a very short beard
and dirty fingernails. This particular descriptionalso matched the identity of the man seen
(33:23):
at Carol's restaurant getting the burger forMichelle. So to recap the evenence so
far, Carmen. Carmen was killedwith manual front strangulation. Wanda and Michelle
were killed with rope or belt frombehind rear strangulation. Wanda and Michelle had
cat hair on their clothes, notCarmen. Wanda and Michelle were fed within
(33:49):
an hour before their deaths, sopost kidnapping, pre death, not Carmen.
All of the dumping grounds were prettysimilar and the victim profile while was
largely the same, loner girls,low self esteem, some developmental delays,
and then in between ten and elevenyears old. There were no leads in
(34:09):
this case pretty much at all,but police had a variety of suspect so
just to go over a couple ofthese, the number one suspect that came.
Like I said, this case wentdead for years because there was just
no information. Eyewitnesses came forward gavetheir accounts that was it well, Ken
(34:29):
Beyonc. And if that name ringsthe bell, it's because it is in
fact likely familiar. Ken Beyonce wasarrested in nineteen seventy nine after it was
discovered that he was half of thenotorious Hillside Strangler, which ended up being
stranglers because his cousin Angelo Buono alsoassisted in kidnapping, raping, torturing and
murdering more than ten women in LosAngeles, I mean, Los Angeles was
(34:53):
literally in shambles and in living interror when the Hillside Strangler was active.
Well, you see, Kim Biancihad actually lived in Rochester during the murders
of Carmen, Wanda and Michelle.He wasn't in jail, He was freely
(35:14):
living in Rochester before he ended upmoving to Los Angeles and then he and
his cousin decided to become like psychopathicserial killers. The problem is that Kim
Biyonci's victims were all adult females.And not only that, but it's also
very rare that there's any type ofcrossover in terms of a killer's ideal victim
(35:36):
profile, especially when it comes tosexual crimes of that nature like sex murders.
Kim Bianci was the number one suspect, I mean law enforcement. I
read interviews and they were talking abouthow excited they were at the possibility.
And that only lasted so long becausethere was actually a palm print found on
Michelle Mayenza's body, and after kimByonci was rested and processed, investigators obviously
(36:02):
shared information and the palm print wasnot a match for Ken Bianci, so
he was officially released as a suspect. And what I find so interesting and
why I mentioned earlier on in theepisode that I don't necessarily believe in coincidence,
is that Michelle Maenza mm her bodywas dumped in massedon New York,
(36:27):
So again you have m m M. Is it coincidence? Was it planned?
Investigators really didn't know. And thefinal kind of say, the final
opinion from a lot of the investigatorsthat I've seen is that it was just
pure coincidence and not connected at all. I'm sure they know more and have
more information than I do. Thatbeing said, I kind of believe in
(36:52):
Aukham's raiser, and that's basically,you know something's going on, it's most
likely ninety nine point nine percent ofthe time, the most likely thing is
true, and I feel like thisis very rare mm cc ww. Each
child found dumped in a city nearbywith a corresponding initial of their name.
(37:16):
That being said, investigators disagreed withme and thought that it was just completely
random because also in terms of CarmenCologne's death, her uncle, Miguel Cologne,
was actually the number one suspect inher death. Investigators decided that only
Wanda and Michelle's murders were likely connecteddue to the presence of the cat here
(37:37):
and so forth, and that CarmenCologne was likely murdered by someone else,
and uncle Miguel happened to fit thatbill. And that's because he fled to
Puerto Rico when investigators attempted to officiallyinterrogate him. Just four days after Carmen
was found dead, Miguel fled thecountry. He moved from Rochester to Puerto
(38:00):
Rico. He told no one exceptfor one close friend, and this friend
claims that he told him that hehad to leave the country because he had
quote done something very wrong in Rochester. So whether that was him admitting that
to a friend that he had somethingto do with it, or a lie,
(38:20):
you know, that's being reported.Who knows what good did come out
of that is that after he fledthe country, investigators were able to search
his car again. This would bethe week that Carmen went missing. Investigators
discovered that he had just recently inthe last two weeks purchased a brown car
very similar to the one discussed ineyewitness accounts of all three girls, and
(38:43):
the car had been scrubbed clean.All is well, and good people clean
their cars, it would make sensethat they did, except investigators actually called
the car dealership where Uncle Miguel gotthis car from and asked about their cleaning
process for new cars, and thedealership advised that they do not clean trunks
with cleaning chemicals, so someone hadto have done that post purchase. Police
(39:08):
were actually never able to find anyconcrete evidence that would link to Miguel Cologne
or allow a DA to file chargesagainst him. In nineteen ninety one,
Miguel actually ended up attacking his wifeand brother, and he shot them multiple
times. But when the police cameand they were making contact, Miguel took
(39:28):
out a gun and committed suicide infront of them. Investigators had a wide
theory, you know, they believedthat Wanda and Michelle's murders were separate from
Carmen's. They believed that Carmen's mostlikely was her uncle. They believed that
the killer could be a school employeefrom Rochester's the school district. It could
be a teacher, a school employee, a social worker. A lot of
(39:52):
analysts, investigators believed that it wassomeone that had to have known the girls
because two of them at least willinglygot into a car with this person.
And then there's a third suspect,and honestly, this is the one that
I find for me, at leastit ticks the boxes. And that was
Dennis Termini, a twenty five yearold Rochester firefighter. A couple weeks after
(40:17):
the death of Michelle, Termany literallytried to snatch a teenage girl off the
street, except she wouldn't stop screaming, so he had to let her go,
And then he tried to do itagain, except this time it was
witnessed by police officers. After agame of cat and mouse, Termany would
eventually find himself backed into a cornertotally after going on a high speed chase
(40:40):
with police and all of this shit, and he actually ended up committing suicide
before he was arrested. Now afterhis death, they weren't able to determine
that he was, in fact theRochester garage rapist, basically the most prolific
race basically the most prolific rapist atthat time. He was responsible for more
(41:02):
than a dozen rapes between nineteen seventyone and nineteen seventy three. They're in
Rochester. Not only all of that, which I know is a lot,
right, but Termany owned a beigecar that precisely matched all of the other
eyewitness accounts. It was identical topeople who were present at the abductions.
(41:24):
So, surprise, surprise, Turmanyowned a beige vehicle that was nearly identical
to the ones observed by multiple witnessesat each of the other abductions, i
e. Michelle and Wanda. Secondly, he was known to live on Box
Street, which is less than onemile from from where Michelle Mainza was last
(41:45):
seen. And when police get this, y'all, when police actually searched his
vehicle early on, they discovered amap that was folded and marked, and
it was marked at the exact placewhere Michelle's body was dumped. So just
tying all of this together, youhave Carmen Cologne, who was murdered via
(42:07):
the front manual strangulation, who ismurdered in frontal stregulation. This year marks
This year marks fifty two years sincethe murders, and no one has been
brought to justice for it, eventhough investigators have received hundreds of leads at
that time. But this year,you, guys, marks the fifty two
(42:30):
year anniversary since these three murders.So I don't know, guys. I
just I was thinking about this caseand thought it would be one to cover.
It's really heinous, really awful.It's terrifying that the suspect has not
been caught yet. I guess Oneother potential useful piece of information is that
there is a girl. Her nameis Alexis Ortiz. She's been all over
(42:52):
TikTok saying that she believes that hergrandfather was the case. We've seen that
happen in various cases, right,I believe I, you know, grandpa
or father, whatever is this serialkiller. The thing about it, though,
is that they actually did a DNAtest. Now, I have scoured
the internet high and low to seeif I can find the results of this
(43:13):
test because it was done in twentytwenty two and I can't. However,
none of the information has changed theoverall narrative of the story that it has
unsolved, So I assume that itcame back with no attachment, you know,
with no match, but yeah,it is still unsolved. That's for
today, guys, Thank you somuch for listening. Greatly appreciate it.
(43:35):
Next episode is going to be Christian, so please prepare yourself mentally for that.
And then I'm also working with afriend to discuss that county in Tennessee
where things just seem a little off. So we're going to talk about all
of the craziness, chaos, andmurder that's happened here in this particular county.
And then also Iris is actually goingto be rejoining me to do the
Tamla Horsford case. That is acase that I have been obsessed with since
(43:59):
it transpired, since it happened,and so I'm going to throw it over
to Iris, who was in themilitary, had met training and then also
worked as an autopsy technician for years, and we are going to discuss the
autopsy as well as all of theevents that transpired that night and see if
we can make sense of what happenedagain. Guys, you've been listening to
(44:21):
We Saw the Devil. I'm Robin, don't forget to check out the website
wesawdedevil dot com. From there,you can find us across all social media,
chiefly We Saw the Devil podcast isthe podcast on Instagram, and if
you want to follow me on Instagram, you can do so at Robin Underscore
WSTD Until next crime
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