September 3, 2024 • 24 mins
Have you ever wondered why Proverbs 31 often feels more like an impossible checklist than a celebration of womanhood? Join us as we explore this transformative passage with my friend Elice Kilko, who brings a unique perspective from her Jewish heritage and experiences with evangelical purity culture. Together, we unravel the pressures women face within evangelical circles, particularly the expectation to conform to idealized roles like stay-at-home moms and perfect wives. By diving into the historical context and original Hebrew text of Proverbs 31, we challenge conventional interpretations and aim to free women from unrealistic standards.
In this eye-opening episode, we reframe Proverbs 31 as aspirational literature, not a rigid set of rules, and discuss how this shift can liberate women from feelings of inadequacy. Elice shares her journey of moving from empowerment to burden under conflicting cultural expectations, and we explore how wisdom literature serves as guidance rather than prescriptive mandates. Our goal is to offer a more loving and freeing perspective on what it means to be a woman in God's eyes, celebrating diverse expressions of womanhood and emphasizing that God's delight goes beyond mere productivity. Tune in for a conversation that promises to change how you view Proverbs 31 forever.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Jenkins (00:00):
Today we are starting a mini-series on
Proverbs 31 to discover how Goddelights in women as whole
people.
If you are like me, many of youhave probably avoided Proverbs
31 for much of your adult life.
So right at the start, beforewe get into the text at all, I
want to acknowledge thedifficulties and the triggers
(00:20):
this passage can bring up formany women rigors this passage
can bring up for many women.
My goal with this series onProverbs 31 is to reframe the
entire idea of ideal womanhoodby considering Proverbs 31 not
as a checklist, but in itshistorical context.
What is God communicating tothe original audience, and
(00:41):
thereby us, about how he viewswomen and what he loves and
delights in in women?
This is going to be a delightemphasis from Proverbs 31,
rather than a to-do checklistemphasis.
I am really praying that Godwill reveal to all of the
(01:02):
listeners the depths of his lovefor you and how he values women
.
I'm praying that God will healand lift away burdens you carry
because of this passage so thatyou can walk forward in freedom.
With me today is my dear friend,Elice Kilko.
Elice is a missionary andmissionary kid who has lived
(01:22):
internationally in both Israeland Brazil.
She has a degree in Bible andshe has a heart for women to
know how much they are loved byGod.
So tell me, Elice, what hasyour experience with Proverbs 31
been?
Elice Kilko (01:37):
Well, Jessica, hello to everybody.
My experience has been veryvaried depending on what context
I'm in.
Within the evangelical church,it's felt very much like a
checklist.
In contexts where I was in acontext with Judaism and kind of
(02:00):
that my family's heritage ithas felt sometimes like a
blessing and very empowering.
Think like Fiddler on the Roof,the prayer, the Sabbath prayer
that they do for women.
That has always felt verybeautiful to me.
So I've had both extremes in mypast and I think the most
(02:24):
confusing thing for me has beentrying to meld them and figure
out how they fit together,because two things can be true
at once.
But how does that all fittogether?
I think is really how it's beenmy experience.
Jessica Jenkins (02:39):
Absolutely, and I love that you have the Jewish
background of how they use theProverbs 31 as a blessing a
blessing for women rather than achecklist for women.
Elice Kilko (03:06):
.
yes, and the checklist partfeels so icky, like it's
something I could never live upto, something that you know as a
newly married wife.
Years ago, how could I geteverything done?
And then in motherhood, youknow if I'm dealing with
postpartum depression.
You know how do I stay on topof things and trying to feel
like this list that I just willnever measure up to.
Absolutely so that part has beenvery like a weight on my
(03:29):
shoulders.
Jessica Jenkins (03:30):
Yeah, because, especially when it's taught as a
checklist, you walk awayfeeling like, okay, now I have
my marching orders, but what ifI can't live up to this?
As you mentioned, postpartumdepression or for people who are
neurodivergent and they havemultiple ways of maybe executive
dysfunction, or they just don'thave any spoons left, or
(03:50):
chronic illness, chronic painall of these things take away
from our ability to produce.
But when Proverbs 31 is held upfor us, she is highly
productive, and when that isheld up as the ideal, anyone who
, for whatever reason, cannotproduce in this season can often
feel like a failure.
Elice Kilko (04:13):
Yes, and I think that feeling like a failure when
you're reading God's word isthe worst place to be.
You want to try to do.
You want to serve the Lord outof love, not out of a sense of
duty, I think.
Jessica Jenkins (04:27):
Yeah, and when you feel like you have to
produce, it becomes much moreduty than love at times,
especially when you're exhaustedand you're just trying to white
knuckle your way through theday as a young mom or somebody
who just doesn't have thesupport they need.
Elice Kilko (04:47):
What was it like for you in your circles?
Jessica Jenkins (04:51):
I don't remember us focusing on Proverbs
31 Peace's a The wholeExcellent whole Wife lot
specifically.
It was kind of just referencedvaguely in other books.
I remember being immersed in,like Martha pieces the excellent
wife, oh, yes, so it was thewhole the whole evangelical
womanhood ideal of what a womanis and it was just kind of
(05:14):
mashed in there.
But I never really fit with alot of those evangelical
womanhood ideals and so I justkind of avoided some of the
whole shtick, like I did notwant to even look at it.
And last summer I was like,okay, I need to sit down from
the Hebrew and work throughProverbs 31.
(05:35):
Hebrew translate it poeticanalysis, historical context.
We're going to do this deeply,and when I did it completely
changed my perspective oneverything.
But I was absolutely terrifiedto do that.
Elice Kilko (05:50):
I remember when you went through that, what were
some of the things that youfound.
Is there something you want toshare about the?
What you learned in the Hebrew?
Jessica Jenkins (06:00):
I just we'll get into all the pieces of that
as we go through this wholeseries, because there's so much.
But the one thing that stuckwith me the most is, rather than
Proverbs 31 being a vehicle ofshame, that I didn't measure up
to an ideal.
God really showed me how hedelights in women.
They're not second-classcitizens, they're not only good
(06:24):
as long as they get to astandard which I've seen in a
lot of Christian books.
I was reading Even Exile overthe summer and reviewing it on
Instagram and a lot of that waslike your identity as a person
doesn't matter, it's whether youmatch up to this ideal that is
important, and then God hasvalue for you and then you
matter if you match up to thisideal.
(06:45):
But when I did the deep diveinto Proverbs 31, it became very
apparent that God values womenand a varied expression of
womanhood.
Not just I was raised and youmay have had a similar
upbringing, but there was kindof just like this muted,
singular expression of womanhood.
(07:07):
That was the cultural's goal.
They wanted it to look kind oflike a certain box.
I never fit in that box, butthey managed to take all of the
passages to point towards thatbox.
And when I deep dived Proverbs31,.
I was like, oh, this isactually not talking about that
(07:27):
ideal box at all.
This actually flies in the faceof half of what they're saying
and is like nope.
And so I found Proverbs 31,.
It went from being ashame-inducing passage to this
hugely empowering passage.
That's like God likes women andhe likes a broad variety of
women, and I cannot wait forother people to realize how much
(07:51):
God delights in the variety ofgifts and personalities he's put
in women and to walk in freedomin that.
Elice Kilko (08:00):
Yeah, I'm so excited to talk about that and
hear what you've learned, andI'm just super excited because I
think that taking away theshame that we've felt from
Proverbs 31 and really seeingwhat God has to say about it is
just going to be so helpful.
Jessica Jenkins (08:15):
So what was the ideal womanhood for you growing
up?
where
Elice Kilko (08:17):
briefly, I think within the evangelical circle it
was definitely somebodyprobably a stay-at-home mom,
probably homeschools or sendsher kids to Christian school,
very much a homemaker, very muchinvolved at church, and none of
those things are bad.
But that's such a place ofprivilege.
(08:42):
If you are in a socioeconomicbackground where you have to
work as a woman, you'reostracized and seen as less than
.
And in my context my family wasworking.
We had a small church plant andlike 90% of the women had to
(09:02):
work outside the home and if wewere, you know, placing these
shackles on them, they couldhave felt a lot less than if
they felt like they needed to beat home.
So really seeing how how weread the Bible um really impacts
women, I think, is reallyimportant, because I think that
(09:22):
in so many cases it was seen as,just like you said, this one
homogenous.
If you didn't fit in this onebox, then you were doing it
wrong.
And I think that there's somany different, varied myths in
what Proverbs 31 says.
Jessica Jenkins (09:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
For me it was very much thesimilar.
People would never say directlyyou absolutely have to be a
stay at home mom.
But the vibe I feel likethere's so many vibes that we
picked up Some books would sayit directly, like you have to do
, but most of them would hedgeit.
They would really emphasize youneed to be a stay at home mom,
(10:00):
but if you can't but they wouldthey would give you that out for
financial reasons.
But they would really emphasizeyou need to be a stay at home
mom.
But if you can't but they wouldthey would give you that out
for financial reasons, but theywould still kind of heap shame
on you if you actually were inthat boat.
It wasn't a freedom to do whatis best for your family.
Whatever that looks like, it'sa.
This is really what it shouldlook like.
We'll allow it if you have todo that, but it's not the best,
(10:24):
yeah.
And so you just feel thatreally deeply in your soul,
trying to figure out what itmeans as a teenager moving into
adult.
What does it mean to be a woman?
Elice Kilko (10:36):
Yeah, for sure.
Jessica Jenkins (10:38):
For me, the internal result of a lot of
these ideals was a lot of shameand feeling trapped and feeling
very performative PerformativeChristianity, but also
performative wife and mothering.
It wasn't natural.
It wasn't a true expression ofwho I was.
(10:58):
I was performing my role aswife and I was performing my
role as mom, trying to match upto specific evangelical ideals
that didn't fit who I am as aperson, because I didn't feel
free to be who God actually mademe.
I felt like I had to conform tosome other box ideal.
(11:19):
Did you experience anythinglike that?
Elice Kilko (11:25):
other box, ideal.
Did you experience anythinglike that?
I did.
I often felt like in certainsituations I was putting on a
mask of what a good mom or agood wife looks like.
A good wife does such, and so Agood mom corrects her children
like this in front of people,even though at home it might be
different.
And noticing the fact that Iwould put on that mask was very
(11:46):
shame inducing, because I didn'thave the freedom to be who God
wanted me to be, not just beforehim, but before others as well.
Jessica Jenkins (11:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's really profound, and so
I'm hoping that going intoProverbs 31 will really help us
with a lot of these things andwill free us to be who God made
us to be.
Obviously, we all have roughedges that God is sanctifying
and helping us grow, but thecore of who we are our
(12:19):
personality or this, that andthe other God can delight in
that, as it is sanctified intohis image.
We don't all have to look likea homogenous group of females.
Elice Kilko (12:32):
And thank God for that.
It would be a boring, boringworld, so boring.
Jessica Jenkins (12:37):
So let's talk about Proverbs 31 a little bit.
Proverbs 31 occurs, obviouslyin the book of Proverbs, which
is wisdom literature.
Elise describe for me whatwisdom literature was,
especially how it was used inthe Jewish communities.
You were around growing up.
Elice Kilko (12:57):
Wisdom.
Literature is seen as ateaching tool, and so a lot of
the Proverbs would have beentaught as a in general in life.
This is how things work.
So realizing that there areexceptions, but that in an ideal
world here are things how, hereare how things work the best.
(13:21):
If you know you reap what youreap, you will sow that kind of
idea, and so very muchqualifying.
If you do this, then this willhappen.
If you are wise, things will gowell.
If you are foolish, things willgo badly.
So it's a teaching toolprimarily.
Jessica Jenkins (13:44):
Awesome, yeah, proverbs is.
It focuses on how practical,what life works best.
Sometimes people get confusedand they think things are
promises.
And the book of Proverbs is notpromises like train up a child
in the way they will go and whenthey were old they will not
depart from it.
It's not a promise that ifyou're a good parent your kids
will turn out well.
(14:05):
It's a general principle thatoverall in life, invested
parents who train their kidswell have kids that turn out
better than non-invested parentswho don't train their kids.
It's general principles.
Practical life advice is whatwisdom literature and the book
of Proverbs is.
The Proverbs in the Bible is acollection of wise sayings
(14:27):
handed down from the oldergenerations to the younger, and
I think it's important to frameProverbs 31 in that context.
There are sayings that aregeneral truths that typically
will work well, but they again,they are not promises that A
always comes from B, justgenerally.
This happens Throughout theentire book of Proverbs.
Various points in the textpoint to what an ideal man would
(14:51):
look like, and much of Proverbsis written from a father to his
son, and so it points to as ason.
It's aspirational literature.
What would an ideal man, whatcould that look like, but it
also has vignettes of thefoolish or slothful man.
It has vignettes of a wisewoman or a foolish woman.
So when we arrive at Proverbs31, which is the final chapter
(15:14):
of the book of Proverbs, thispassage paints a picture of what
the ideal woman, who typifieslady wisdom, could look like in
that culture.
It's aspirational literatureand it's never meant to be a
checklist, and there's some keyreasons for that that I really
want to focus on.
Elice Kilko (15:35):
So why is it not a checklist?
What are the key reasons?
Jessica Jenkins (15:40):
Proverbs.
The book of Proverbs is notmeant to be a checklist.
Sometimes in the New Testamentwe'll see lists of commands, but
the book of Proverbs doesn't dothat.
Another reason it's not achecklist is that the Proverbs
31 woman is a wealthy,aristocratic, noble woman or
queen.
The things she does a lot ofthem, and we'll get into all
(16:03):
these details in later episodesbut a lot of the things she does
are not things that the averageeveryday peasant woman would be
able to do.
It's kind of like handing youor I a checklist of something
that the first lady isresponsible for and being like
(16:24):
this is what you need to do dayto day as a stay-at-home mom.
It's like that doesn't evenjive, like that doesn't work.
Elice Kilko (16:32):
So we can recognize in the passage.
As we study it, we'll seedifferent areas where her
privilege and socioeconomicbackground figure into the
things that she's doing or notdoing.
Is that what you're sayingExactly?
Jessica Jenkins (16:43):
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
Some people say Proverbs 31 isit's just a typification of lady
wisdom.
I like to interpret it a littlebit more literally in that if
we take it as maybe anexpression of what an ideal wife
(17:05):
would look like, it gives usmore concrete things to take
away.
If we're just like, oh, it'sjust another typification of
lady wisdom, it's like, okay,what do I do with that?
But if we can look at it asthese are idealized things for a
woman of social stature, inthat culture, we can see value
structures.
We can see the things that arevalued by both God and the
(17:25):
original audience, principlesthat we could follow Exactly, or
aspire to.
Right, General things, but notlike a checklist of like.
One thing I always hear is shegets up early and she stays up
late.
When does she sleep?
Yeah, that's one questionpeople are always like when does
she sleep?
(17:45):
But they're also like you needto be diligent, you need to be
getting up early and you need tolike work and we're probably
going to do an entire episode onthose specific ideas and the
concept of rest in the Proverbs31 woman.
So you will want to come backfor that.
But there's a lot of thingsthat can be turned into
checklists.
Be sure you get up before yourkids to do your devos, because
the Proverbs 31 woman was upbefore the sun.
(18:06):
That can turn into a checklist,but that's not what the
Proverbs is doing.
Also, when we look at thebeginning of Proverbs 31,
because the chapter about theProverbs, the section about the
Proverbs 31 woman, doesn't starttill verse 10.
If we look at the beginning ofthe chapter, it starts in verse
one, the words of King Lemuel, apronouncement which his mother
(18:29):
taught him.
So Proverbs 31 is framed by thechapter it's in it starts it's
a proverb written by a woman,not for her daughter, saying
this is the checklist of thingsyou need to do, but for her son
saying this is the type of womanyou would want to be queen.
(18:51):
It's not written to a peasantboy.
This is the type of wife youwant on your farm.
This is aspirational literature.
A king what would hepotentially want in a queen for
that level?
So we're already talking abouta situation where she doesn't
match the socioeconomic level ofmost of Israel at the time, and
(19:12):
so it couldn't be a checklistfor the average person, because
specific things in the textpoint to a social status that
only a couple people couldattain to.
Elice Kilko (19:22):
And that's such an important distinction to make
and to understand before we evenget into the chapter.
Jessica Jenkins (19:28):
Yes, absolutely the Proverbs 31 chapter.
It's an acrostic poem whichwould make it easier to remember
, but that also means we don'thave like a full structure.
It's not a list, again achecklist, and it's thematic as
we go through, but it's acrostic, it's just showing kind of like
A to Z young princeling.
(19:51):
These are the types of thingsto pay attention to as you
choose a wife, because you needto choose carefully.
So, A to Z, here are the typesof things a woman should have.
Elice Kilko (20:07):
And acrostic literature was used a lot in
Hebrew.
Poetry like Psalm 119 was alsoan acrostic, so it was an easy
teaching tool that they oftenused for teaching different
principles people learning towrite kind of like you know old
(20:34):
school style primers where youwrite specific poems to practice
handwriting.
A is for apple, B is for ball.
Jessica Jenkins (20:37):
Exactly.
They would use that a lot forthose sorts of things.
So as we look at the Proverbs31 chapter, there's so much that
can go into it.
There's so much that we bringto the passage.
And as we wrap up our episodetoday, I just want to remind us
(20:58):
of a couple things.
Proverbs 31 is not a checklist.
It is a set of characteristicsof what a godly queen could look
like.
Now these characteristics haveapplication, have implications
for everybody, for all time, butonly very few people would be
(21:21):
doing exactly what she isdescribed doing.
So we can take generalprinciples about what God
delights in women from thispassage without taking you must
do.
You must get up before the sunand keep your lamp burning after
bedtime to keep working hard.
We can move away from thosesorts of.
She does this.
(21:42):
Therefore, I must do.
Likewise to this is a specificwoman being described in a
specific socioeconomic situation.
There is character underneathand there are things God
delights in.
How do we marry those to thensee how it impacts our lives
today.
(22:02):
If you would like to get yourown copy of my translation of
Proverbs 31, I have translatedit all from the Hebrew to bring
out various nuances and poeticelements in the text.
If you would like that, go tomy website, wewhothirstcom.
You can find that there.
Just join my mailing list andyou will be able to get your own
(22:24):
download of the Proverbs 31passage.
That brings out a lot of thenuances from the Hebrew text
that we will be talking about inthis podcast.
Elice Kilko (22:34):
And you definitely want to do that because
Jessica's translations are so,so good.
I love them.
So definitely do that.
Check it out.
Jessica Jenkins (22:44):
And thank you, elise, for joining us.
I cannot wait to talk with youmore about everything going on
with Proverbs 31, as we willcome back for our next episode
that is going to talk about kindof her personality.
Who is she deep down?
What type of woman is she?
Did Elise and I match up tothat type of womanhood, or ideal
(23:05):
womanhood?
Let's find out.
That's the next episode.
Until then, may the Lord blessyou and keep you.
Today we are starting a mini-series on
Proverbs 31 to discover how Goddelights in women as whole
people.
If you are like me, many of youhave probably avoided Proverbs
31 for much of your adult life.
So right at the start, beforewe get into the text at all, I
want to acknowledge thedifficulties and the triggers
(00:20):
this passage can bring up formany women rigors this passage
can bring up for many women.
My goal with this series onProverbs 31 is to reframe the
entire idea of ideal womanhoodby considering Proverbs 31 not
as a checklist, but in itshistorical context.
What is God communicating tothe original audience, and
(00:41):
thereby us, about how he viewswomen and what he loves and
delights in in women?
This is going to be a delightemphasis from Proverbs 31,
rather than a to-do checklistemphasis.
I am really praying that Godwill reveal to all of the
(01:02):
listeners the depths of his lovefor you and how he values women
.
I'm praying that God will healand lift away burdens you carry
because of this passage so thatyou can walk forward in freedom.
With me today is my dear friend,Elice Kilko.
Elice is a missionary andmissionary kid who has lived
(01:22):
internationally in both Israeland Brazil.
She has a degree in Bible andshe has a heart for women to
know how much they are loved byGod.
So tell me, Elice, what hasyour experience with Proverbs 31
been?
Elice Kilko (01:37):
Well, Jessica, hello to everybody.
My experience has been veryvaried depending on what context
I'm in.
Within the evangelical church,it's felt very much like a
checklist.
In contexts where I was in acontext with Judaism and kind of
(02:00):
that my family's heritage ithas felt sometimes like a
blessing and very empowering.
Think like Fiddler on the Roof,the prayer, the Sabbath prayer
that they do for women.
That has always felt verybeautiful to me.
So I've had both extremes in mypast and I think the most
(02:24):
confusing thing for me has beentrying to meld them and figure
out how they fit together,because two things can be true
at once.
But how does that all fittogether?
I think is really how it's beenmy experience.
Jessica Jenkins (02:39):
Absolutely, and I love that you have the Jewish
background of how they use theProverbs 31 as a blessing a
blessing for women rather than achecklist for women.
Elice Kilko (03:06):
.
yes, and the checklist partfeels so icky, like it's
something I could never live upto, something that you know as a
newly married wife.
Years ago, how could I geteverything done?
And then in motherhood, youknow if I'm dealing with
postpartum depression.
You know how do I stay on topof things and trying to feel
like this list that I just willnever measure up to.
Absolutely so that part has beenvery like a weight on my
(03:29):
shoulders.
Jessica Jenkins (03:30):
Yeah, because, especially when it's taught as a
checklist, you walk awayfeeling like, okay, now I have
my marching orders, but what ifI can't live up to this?
As you mentioned, postpartumdepression or for people who are
neurodivergent and they havemultiple ways of maybe executive
dysfunction, or they just don'thave any spoons left, or
(03:50):
chronic illness, chronic painall of these things take away
from our ability to produce.
But when Proverbs 31 is held upfor us, she is highly
productive, and when that isheld up as the ideal, anyone who
, for whatever reason, cannotproduce in this season can often
feel like a failure.
Elice Kilko (04:13):
Yes, and I think that feeling like a failure when
you're reading God's word isthe worst place to be.
You want to try to do.
You want to serve the Lord outof love, not out of a sense of
duty, I think.
Jessica Jenkins (04:27):
Yeah, and when you feel like you have to
produce, it becomes much moreduty than love at times,
especially when you're exhaustedand you're just trying to white
knuckle your way through theday as a young mom or somebody
who just doesn't have thesupport they need.
Elice Kilko (04:47):
What was it like for you in your circles?
Jessica Jenkins (04:51):
I don't remember us focusing on Proverbs
31 Peace's a The wholeExcellent whole Wife lot
specifically.
It was kind of just referencedvaguely in other books.
I remember being immersed in,like Martha pieces the excellent
wife, oh, yes, so it was thewhole the whole evangelical
womanhood ideal of what a womanis and it was just kind of
(05:14):
mashed in there.
But I never really fit with alot of those evangelical
womanhood ideals and so I justkind of avoided some of the
whole shtick, like I did notwant to even look at it.
And last summer I was like,okay, I need to sit down from
the Hebrew and work throughProverbs 31.
(05:35):
Hebrew translate it poeticanalysis, historical context.
We're going to do this deeply,and when I did it completely
changed my perspective oneverything.
But I was absolutely terrifiedto do that.
Elice Kilko (05:50):
I remember when you went through that, what were
some of the things that youfound.
Is there something you want toshare about the?
What you learned in the Hebrew?
Jessica Jenkins (06:00):
I just we'll get into all the pieces of that
as we go through this wholeseries, because there's so much.
But the one thing that stuckwith me the most is, rather than
Proverbs 31 being a vehicle ofshame, that I didn't measure up
to an ideal.
God really showed me how hedelights in women.
They're not second-classcitizens, they're not only good
(06:24):
as long as they get to astandard which I've seen in a
lot of Christian books.
I was reading Even Exile overthe summer and reviewing it on
Instagram and a lot of that waslike your identity as a person
doesn't matter, it's whether youmatch up to this ideal that is
important, and then God hasvalue for you and then you
matter if you match up to thisideal.
(06:45):
But when I did the deep diveinto Proverbs 31, it became very
apparent that God values womenand a varied expression of
womanhood.
Not just I was raised and youmay have had a similar
upbringing, but there was kindof just like this muted,
singular expression of womanhood.
(07:07):
That was the cultural's goal.
They wanted it to look kind oflike a certain box.
I never fit in that box, butthey managed to take all of the
passages to point towards thatbox.
And when I deep dived Proverbs31,.
I was like, oh, this isactually not talking about that
(07:27):
ideal box at all.
This actually flies in the faceof half of what they're saying
and is like nope.
And so I found Proverbs 31,.
It went from being ashame-inducing passage to this
hugely empowering passage.
That's like God likes women andhe likes a broad variety of
women, and I cannot wait forother people to realize how much
(07:51):
God delights in the variety ofgifts and personalities he's put
in women and to walk in freedomin that.
Elice Kilko (08:00):
Yeah, I'm so excited to talk about that and
hear what you've learned, andI'm just super excited because I
think that taking away theshame that we've felt from
Proverbs 31 and really seeingwhat God has to say about it is
just going to be so helpful.
Jessica Jenkins (08:15):
So what was the ideal womanhood for you growing
up?
where
Elice Kilko (08:17):
briefly, I think within the evangelical circle it
was definitely somebodyprobably a stay-at-home mom,
probably homeschools or sendsher kids to Christian school,
very much a homemaker, very muchinvolved at church, and none of
those things are bad.
But that's such a place ofprivilege.
(08:42):
If you are in a socioeconomicbackground where you have to
work as a woman, you'reostracized and seen as less than
.
And in my context my family wasworking.
We had a small church plant andlike 90% of the women had to
(09:02):
work outside the home and if wewere, you know, placing these
shackles on them, they couldhave felt a lot less than if
they felt like they needed to beat home.
So really seeing how how weread the Bible um really impacts
women, I think, is reallyimportant, because I think that
(09:22):
in so many cases it was seen as,just like you said, this one
homogenous.
If you didn't fit in this onebox, then you were doing it
wrong.
And I think that there's somany different, varied myths in
what Proverbs 31 says.
Jessica Jenkins (09:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
For me it was very much thesimilar.
People would never say directlyyou absolutely have to be a
stay at home mom.
But the vibe I feel likethere's so many vibes that we
picked up Some books would sayit directly, like you have to do
, but most of them would hedgeit.
They would really emphasize youneed to be a stay at home mom,
(10:00):
but if you can't but they wouldthey would give you that out for
financial reasons.
But they would really emphasizeyou need to be a stay at home
mom.
But if you can't but they wouldthey would give you that out
for financial reasons, but theywould still kind of heap shame
on you if you actually were inthat boat.
It wasn't a freedom to do whatis best for your family.
Whatever that looks like, it'sa.
This is really what it shouldlook like.
We'll allow it if you have todo that, but it's not the best,
(10:24):
yeah.
And so you just feel thatreally deeply in your soul,
trying to figure out what itmeans as a teenager moving into
adult.
What does it mean to be a woman?
Elice Kilko (10:36):
Yeah, for sure.
Jessica Jenkins (10:38):
For me, the internal result of a lot of
these ideals was a lot of shameand feeling trapped and feeling
very performative PerformativeChristianity, but also
performative wife and mothering.
It wasn't natural.
It wasn't a true expression ofwho I was.
(10:58):
I was performing my role aswife and I was performing my
role as mom, trying to match upto specific evangelical ideals
that didn't fit who I am as aperson, because I didn't feel
free to be who God actually mademe.
I felt like I had to conform tosome other box ideal.
(11:19):
Did you experience anythinglike that?
Elice Kilko (11:25):
other box, ideal.
Did you experience anythinglike that?
I did.
I often felt like in certainsituations I was putting on a
mask of what a good mom or agood wife looks like.
A good wife does such, and so Agood mom corrects her children
like this in front of people,even though at home it might be
different.
And noticing the fact that Iwould put on that mask was very
(11:46):
shame inducing, because I didn'thave the freedom to be who God
wanted me to be, not just beforehim, but before others as well.
Jessica Jenkins (11:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's really profound, and so
I'm hoping that going intoProverbs 31 will really help us
with a lot of these things andwill free us to be who God made
us to be.
Obviously, we all have roughedges that God is sanctifying
and helping us grow, but thecore of who we are our
(12:19):
personality or this, that andthe other God can delight in
that, as it is sanctified intohis image.
We don't all have to look likea homogenous group of females.
Elice Kilko (12:32):
And thank God for that.
It would be a boring, boringworld, so boring.
Jessica Jenkins (12:37):
So let's talk about Proverbs 31 a little bit.
Proverbs 31 occurs, obviouslyin the book of Proverbs, which
is wisdom literature.
Elise describe for me whatwisdom literature was,
especially how it was used inthe Jewish communities.
You were around growing up.
Elice Kilko (12:57):
Wisdom.
Literature is seen as ateaching tool, and so a lot of
the Proverbs would have beentaught as a in general in life.
This is how things work.
So realizing that there areexceptions, but that in an ideal
world here are things how, hereare how things work the best.
(13:21):
If you know you reap what youreap, you will sow that kind of
idea, and so very muchqualifying.
If you do this, then this willhappen.
If you are wise, things will gowell.
If you are foolish, things willgo badly.
So it's a teaching toolprimarily.
Jessica Jenkins (13:44):
Awesome, yeah, proverbs is.
It focuses on how practical,what life works best.
Sometimes people get confusedand they think things are
promises.
And the book of Proverbs is notpromises like train up a child
in the way they will go and whenthey were old they will not
depart from it.
It's not a promise that ifyou're a good parent your kids
will turn out well.
(14:05):
It's a general principle thatoverall in life, invested
parents who train their kidswell have kids that turn out
better than non-invested parentswho don't train their kids.
It's general principles.
Practical life advice is whatwisdom literature and the book
of Proverbs is.
The Proverbs in the Bible is acollection of wise sayings
(14:27):
handed down from the oldergenerations to the younger, and
I think it's important to frameProverbs 31 in that context.
There are sayings that aregeneral truths that typically
will work well, but they again,they are not promises that A
always comes from B, justgenerally.
This happens Throughout theentire book of Proverbs.
Various points in the textpoint to what an ideal man would
(14:51):
look like, and much of Proverbsis written from a father to his
son, and so it points to as ason.
It's aspirational literature.
What would an ideal man, whatcould that look like, but it
also has vignettes of thefoolish or slothful man.
It has vignettes of a wisewoman or a foolish woman.
So when we arrive at Proverbs31, which is the final chapter
(15:14):
of the book of Proverbs, thispassage paints a picture of what
the ideal woman, who typifieslady wisdom, could look like in
that culture.
It's aspirational literatureand it's never meant to be a
checklist, and there's some keyreasons for that that I really
want to focus on.
Elice Kilko (15:35):
So why is it not a checklist?
What are the key reasons?
Jessica Jenkins (15:40):
Proverbs.
The book of Proverbs is notmeant to be a checklist.
Sometimes in the New Testamentwe'll see lists of commands, but
the book of Proverbs doesn't dothat.
Another reason it's not achecklist is that the Proverbs
31 woman is a wealthy,aristocratic, noble woman or
queen.
The things she does a lot ofthem, and we'll get into all
(16:03):
these details in later episodesbut a lot of the things she does
are not things that the averageeveryday peasant woman would be
able to do.
It's kind of like handing youor I a checklist of something
that the first lady isresponsible for and being like
(16:24):
this is what you need to do dayto day as a stay-at-home mom.
It's like that doesn't evenjive, like that doesn't work.
Elice Kilko (16:32):
So we can recognize in the passage.
As we study it, we'll seedifferent areas where her
privilege and socioeconomicbackground figure into the
things that she's doing or notdoing.
Is that what you're sayingExactly?
Jessica Jenkins (16:43):
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
Some people say Proverbs 31 isit's just a typification of lady
wisdom.
I like to interpret it a littlebit more literally in that if
we take it as maybe anexpression of what an ideal wife
(17:05):
would look like, it gives usmore concrete things to take
away.
If we're just like, oh, it'sjust another typification of
lady wisdom, it's like, okay,what do I do with that?
But if we can look at it asthese are idealized things for a
woman of social stature, inthat culture, we can see value
structures.
We can see the things that arevalued by both God and the
(17:25):
original audience, principlesthat we could follow Exactly, or
aspire to.
Right, General things, but notlike a checklist of like.
One thing I always hear is shegets up early and she stays up
late.
When does she sleep?
Yeah, that's one questionpeople are always like when does
she sleep?
(17:45):
But they're also like you needto be diligent, you need to be
getting up early and you need tolike work and we're probably
going to do an entire episode onthose specific ideas and the
concept of rest in the Proverbs31 woman.
So you will want to come backfor that.
But there's a lot of thingsthat can be turned into
checklists.
Be sure you get up before yourkids to do your devos, because
the Proverbs 31 woman was upbefore the sun.
(18:06):
That can turn into a checklist,but that's not what the
Proverbs is doing.
Also, when we look at thebeginning of Proverbs 31,
because the chapter about theProverbs, the section about the
Proverbs 31 woman, doesn't starttill verse 10.
If we look at the beginning ofthe chapter, it starts in verse
one, the words of King Lemuel, apronouncement which his mother
(18:29):
taught him.
So Proverbs 31 is framed by thechapter it's in it starts it's
a proverb written by a woman,not for her daughter, saying
this is the checklist of thingsyou need to do, but for her son
saying this is the type of womanyou would want to be queen.
(18:51):
It's not written to a peasantboy.
This is the type of wife youwant on your farm.
This is aspirational literature.
A king what would hepotentially want in a queen for
that level?
So we're already talking abouta situation where she doesn't
match the socioeconomic level ofmost of Israel at the time, and
(19:12):
so it couldn't be a checklistfor the average person, because
specific things in the textpoint to a social status that
only a couple people couldattain to.
Elice Kilko (19:22):
And that's such an important distinction to make
and to understand before we evenget into the chapter.
Jessica Jenkins (19:28):
Yes, absolutely the Proverbs 31 chapter.
It's an acrostic poem whichwould make it easier to remember
, but that also means we don'thave like a full structure.
It's not a list, again achecklist, and it's thematic as
we go through, but it's acrostic, it's just showing kind of like
A to Z young princeling.
(19:51):
These are the types of thingsto pay attention to as you
choose a wife, because you needto choose carefully.
So, A to Z, here are the typesof things a woman should have.
Elice Kilko (20:07):
And acrostic literature was used a lot in
Hebrew.
Poetry like Psalm 119 was alsoan acrostic, so it was an easy
teaching tool that they oftenused for teaching different
principles people learning towrite kind of like you know old
(20:34):
school style primers where youwrite specific poems to practice
handwriting.
A is for apple, B is for ball.
Jessica Jenkins (20:37):
Exactly.
They would use that a lot forthose sorts of things.
So as we look at the Proverbs31 chapter, there's so much that
can go into it.
There's so much that we bringto the passage.
And as we wrap up our episodetoday, I just want to remind us
(20:58):
of a couple things.
Proverbs 31 is not a checklist.
It is a set of characteristicsof what a godly queen could look
like.
Now these characteristics haveapplication, have implications
for everybody, for all time, butonly very few people would be
(21:21):
doing exactly what she isdescribed doing.
So we can take generalprinciples about what God
delights in women from thispassage without taking you must
do.
You must get up before the sunand keep your lamp burning after
bedtime to keep working hard.
We can move away from thosesorts of.
She does this.
(21:42):
Therefore, I must do.
Likewise to this is a specificwoman being described in a
specific socioeconomic situation.
There is character underneathand there are things God
delights in.
How do we marry those to thensee how it impacts our lives
today.
(22:02):
If you would like to get yourown copy of my translation of
Proverbs 31, I have translatedit all from the Hebrew to bring
out various nuances and poeticelements in the text.
If you would like that, go tomy website, wewhothirstcom.
You can find that there.
Just join my mailing list andyou will be able to get your own
(22:24):
download of the Proverbs 31passage.
That brings out a lot of thenuances from the Hebrew text
that we will be talking about inthis podcast.
Elice Kilko (22:34):
And you definitely want to do that because
Jessica's translations are so,so good.
I love them.
So definitely do that.
Check it out.
Jessica Jenkins (22:44):
And thank you, elise, for joining us.
I cannot wait to talk with youmore about everything going on
with Proverbs 31, as we willcome back for our next episode
that is going to talk about kindof her personality.
Who is she deep down?
What type of woman is she?
Did Elise and I match up tothat type of womanhood, or ideal
(23:05):
womanhood?
Let's find out.
That's the next episode.
Until then, may the Lord blessyou and keep you.
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