September 17, 2024 • 45 mins
Can the wisdom of ancient cultures reshape our modern understanding of marriage roles? Join me and Elice Kilko, as we challenge conventional wisdom with insights from Proverbs 31. Elice opens up about her upbringing in a respectful complementarian household and how it contrasts with the rigid gender roles we were taught outside our homes. Together, we reveal our personal journeys towards a more egalitarian approach that emphasizes mutual submission and partnership.
By exploring the historical context of gender roles within marriage, we uncover a nuanced perspective that disrupts traditional views. Drawing from the ancient Near Eastern practices, we discuss how responsibilities within a household were shared and not strictly divided by gender. This segment also includes a critical analysis of teachings from figures like George Knight III and Dorothy Patterson, highlighting the significant authority matriarchs held in ancient households, particularly in areas like food management. Our conversation aims to provide a deeper, more balanced understanding of marital roles that challenge modern complementarianism.
In this episode, we also highlight the role and character of the husband in Proverbs 31, his social status, and how his partnership with the woman of valor enhances his reputation. We stress the importance of trust and praise for women within church communities, drawing from personal experiences and cultural practices such as the Eshet Chayil prayer. By fostering environments that uplift and honor women, we can create healthier, more respectful marriages. Finally, don't miss our excitement for the upcoming episode on homemaking, where we'll explore the intricate dynamics of creating a nurturing and organized household. Tune in for an enriching discussion that celebrates egalitarian partnerships and challenges traditional norms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Jenkins (00:00):
Today we are continuing our Proverbs 31
series by looking at therelationship between the woman
of valor, whose personality wediscussed in the last episode,
and her husband.
With me today is my dear friendElise Kilko, who has a degree
in counseling.
She has been married for nineyears and in that time has
confronted deep questions aboutthe goodness of God around
(00:22):
singleness and marriage.
Deep questions about thegoodness of God around
singleness and marriage.
Her heart is for women to knowGod's deep love for them and to
walk in confidence in theirmarriages.
Elise, we both grew up inmiddle to hard complementarian
spaces.
How would you describe theideal relationship in those
spaces between a husband and awife?
Elice Kilko (00:43):
That's a good question.
I definitely grew up withparents who I like to say they
were respectful complementarians.
They were complementarians.
My dad definitely saw himselfas the head of the household.
My mom definitely saw her placeas one of submission, but they
were very respectful and havebeen of each other's opinions
(01:04):
and very loving.
So I feel like, under theumbrella of complementarian-ness
, I feel like I had a reallygood example and I would say, as
I get older, I definitely seethe relationship between a
husband and a wife as one ofpartnership, working together to
(01:29):
grow their household, love eachother well and figure out what
the division of labor in theirhousehold will be Absolutely
Divided, not just on what ourculture says this is what girls
do, this is what boys do butrather each spouse's talents and
(01:52):
abilities.
Jessica Jenkins (01:53):
As I get older, I see the need for more nuance
contrast kind of with the way amarriage relationship was
described in the typicalevangelical space,
complementarian world you grewup in.
Elice Kilko (02:13):
Well, I think it definitely.
In our house, you know, my dadusually did most of the driving.
My dad always told us growingup that he's the one that taught
my mom to cook.
But other than Sunday morningwhen he would braise the roast
beef to go into the oven beforechurch, we didn't see him
(02:35):
cooking much.
So it was still kind ofexpected that my mom would do
most of the cooking, most of theyou know laundry and things
like that, most of the cooking,most of the you know laundry and
things like that.
So it was kind of that, youknow, there was that love and
thought for each other.
But then there was still a verytraditionally American division
of labor, I guess would be thebest way to say it.
Jessica Jenkins (02:56):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I definitely experienced a lotof the same.
My dad my mom had somedisabilities growing up so he
would step in and do some thingsjust because her disabilities
required it.
And my parents, like yours,like it was a complimentary
marriage, absolutely Like dad.
(03:17):
My dad would always be like thebuck stops here, but he was
also a collaborative decisionmaker.
My dad was not everauthoritarian in his marriage or
like I'm the boss in hismarriage.
He's naturally a collaborativedecision maker and he wanted my
mom's opinion and input and eventhough they said like if
(03:41):
there's a disagreement he getsto make the final call, I don't
know that he would have beenfully comfortable making the
final call if she wasn't inagreement, because he just liked
that collaboration.
And so that's kind of thecomplementarian marriage I grew
up under and with which was avery healthy relationship,
dynamic, like it was a healthy,quality marriage.
Elice Kilko (04:04):
But that wasn't necessarily when I especially
when I moved out on my own thetype of marriage that was
described to me in some of thecomplementarian literature and
work and culture that I wasaround with very respectful
(04:26):
parents, parents who arerespectful to each other, and
yet in the greater, you knowriver that they were swimming in
, things were so much more blackand white than the homes that
we grew up in.
Jessica Jenkins (04:34):
Yeah, because I remember learning like oh,
what's his name Bill Gothard'sumbrella Like, and we would talk
that would be referencedloosely in our household and it
was in some of the books andstuff we had.
But it was never hardcore,taught or held to.
But when you move out of thehouse, where there's the way you
(04:56):
practice at home, that becamevery much the overt thoughts and
way things should be doneoutside of that where, like, the
man is the boss period andthat's just the way it is in
some of the outside of my homegrowing up.
Complementarian world.
Elice Kilko (05:18):
Yeah, and that can get so dangerous so quickly.
Jessica Jenkins (05:22):
Like one of the dorm moms at the Bible college,
I went to even told like hergirls, you don't disagree with
your husband.
Elice Kilko (05:29):
Wow, that's really yeah.
And of the conservative schools, you didn't go to the most
conservative either.
Jessica Jenkins (05:36):
No, I didn't, but in comparison to other ones
I see now it was pretty up there.
It just wasn't as some.
So authority and submissionwere supposed to be very kind
and loving, and in our homesthey absolutely were, but in the
world outside it was a littlemore black and white, that the
(05:57):
man is the boss and the woman issupposed to submit and she's
not necessarily even supposed toquestion that sometimes
necessarily even supposed toquestion that sometimes.
Elice Kilko (06:10):
Yeah, some complementarian leaders claim
that the husband has theultimate say-so I definitely
heard that but that he delegatesresponsibility to his wife.
I heard that all the timegrowing up, did you?
Jessica Jenkins (06:17):
Yes, yes, the wife is responsible for the home
and she has decision-makingpower in the home, but only
because the husband gave herthat responsibility, because
ultimately it's all his.
He's the only one with power.
Any power or responsibility shehas is because he delegated and
passed some of his off to herunder his umbrella.
(06:40):
And a good husband does thatcheerfully, lovingly, and just
gives that to her, but it'sstill ultimately his
philosophically, in this mindsetwe were raised in.
Elice Kilko (06:52):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely grew up with that.
Is your view different now?
Jessica Jenkins (06:58):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I believe very much thata husband and wife need to work
in partnership together and Iwould say I have a much more
egalitarian view of marriagetoday.
That mutual submission is thegoal we need to have in our
marriage reins.
That shifts the dynamic some.
It's not the same equalityhusbands and wives have, but the
(07:34):
husband delegates everything tothe wife.
No, I definitely don't followthat, and learning about the
historical culture of the Bibleand especially around Proverbs
31, has really helped shift mymindset on that, away from that
idea.
I think some of the view ofmarriage that we were raised in,
that kind of that, that notnecessarily what we saw
exemplified for us in ourparents because they had very
(07:56):
healthy marriages and I have somuch respect for both of their
marriages.
But the general current theview of marriage that goes along
with that complementarian viewof gender roles.
A simple phrase used todescribe that I've seen is men
lead, women follow, and I try tosay if they're, some of them
try to be like well, it'shusbands and wives.
(08:17):
Some, like John Piper, are likeno, that's everybody always
kind of the general vibe you'resupposed to be going for.
Elice Kilko (08:24):
Women can't even give directions.
Jessica Jenkins (08:26):
Right yeah, john.
Piper straight up said a womanshould not ever give a directive
to a man, even if he asks herfor driving directions.
We won't get into that.
But how tightly people hold tothat depends on how much freedom
and agency they give theirwomen.
(08:47):
We saw our fathers didn't holdto that super tightly and gave
our mothers quite a bit offreedom and agency and gave
their daughters quite a bit offreedom and agency.
But on paper, when you startreading the complementarian
works like Rediscovering orRecovering Biblical Manhood and
Womanhood, or those major worksand writings on
(09:10):
complementarianism, they removea lot of that freedom and agency
and power from women.
Women are placed completelyunder the men and any power
agency they have is delegated tothem from the man.
Elice Kilko (09:28):
Can you give me an example of where they do that?
Jessica Jenkins (09:32):
George Knight tells us that the wife must
recognize that her management ofthe home is to be conducted in
submission to her husband'sleadership.
Who the husband is responsiblefor the overall management of
the household.
So the husband's responsibleand she just conducts her
sub-management under hismanagement.
Elice Kilko (09:56):
Wow.
Any other examples?
Jessica Jenkins (09:59):
Dorothy Patterson says Proverbs 31
contains a full-length portraitof a godly heroine, finished in
minute detail.
There's no mention of rights orpursuit of self-serving
interests, neither is thehusband assigned to domestic
pursuits.
There is no hint in the passagethat she has any other purpose
than to meet the needs of herfamily in the best possible way.
Elice Kilko (10:22):
Oh boy.
Jessica Jenkins (10:23):
Oh yeah.
So this is the type of stuff,especially after I moved out of
the house and my examples formarriage were no longer just my
parents, where my fatherparticipated in so much of the
household stuff, child care, allof it.
I went to seminary underDorothy Patterson.
(10:44):
Dorothy Patterson told me thatif a wife is working outside of
the home, that constitutes alack of faith, because the wife
has to be the homemaker in thehome and the husband has to be
the breadwinner provider.
And if there is any otherarrangement, is it because they
have a lack of faith?
Elice Kilko (11:05):
Oh wow, that's a very big claim, it is.
Jessica Jenkins (11:10):
Yes, and so that is a lot because you have
this men lead, women follow idea.
And then you have the men haveto be the providers period.
The woman is the housekeeperand baby maker, nurturer person
period.
That's it Like box, you don'tmove outside that and it's taken
me years to work through thatto be able to have a better idea
(11:33):
and understanding.
Old Testament culture hashelped with that immeasurably.
Elice Kilko (11:39):
So, as you study biblical context, what have you
learned about how the wife andhusband work together in their
home?
Jessica Jenkins (11:50):
That's a fantastic question and if you
want more detail than I can givein this episode, see my lecture
on YouTube on patricentrism andheterarchy.
Search YouTube for we whoThirst podcasts and you'll be
able to find that lecture withthe full visuals there, but the
short version is.
In the ancient Near East theybasically had three roles that
(12:13):
people would have.
There was protection,procreation and provision.
So I'm going to contrast thosethree roles protection,
procreation, provision with thekind of ideal roles we were
raised with incomplementarianism, which is the
man leads and provides, thewoman submits and takes care of
the house.
And so in the ancient world theman would do the protection,
(12:38):
which complementarians would saythat as well, he needs to
protect.
They also say he needs toprovide, which in the ancient
world was shared Everybody inthe household husband, wife,
children, adult children,grandparents, servants, brothers
or sisters who are still livingin the house.
All of them are responsible forprovision.
(12:59):
It's not the man who is thebreadwinner, it's the entire
family working together.
So that changed my mind on itdramatically.
The only two static gender rolesin the ancient Near East that
pretty much every culture had,these gender roles for men and
women were protection andprocreation, because men are
stereotypically bigger andstronger and so better at
protecting, and women wereprotection and procreation.
(13:19):
Because men are stereotypicallybigger and stronger and so
better at protecting, and womenare the only ones who can
physically have babies, so thatwas their responsibility.
Everything else, in many waysin the household level, was
shared.
Also, though, in a thehouseholds were not patriarchal.
The way the complementarians wegrew up with talked about
(13:42):
hierarchy.
Were you given at all BillGothard's umbrella diagram?
Elice Kilko (13:51):
Yeah, so my dad didn't like Bill Gothard, but I
am familiar with it and growingup I was familiar.
It was something that I saw,you know, drawn on whiteboards
in schools and churches.
So, yeah, I was familiar withit growing up.
Jessica Jenkins (14:09):
And for anybody who's not familiar?
it's basically the idea thatit's umbrellas of protection.
So you have God, who is overthe man, who is then over the
woman, who's over the children,and it's a very strong
gender-based hierarchy man,woman, children.
But in the ancient world, inOld Testament Israel, things
(14:31):
were much more heterarchical,which means it wasn't a
gender-based hierarchy.
There was still hierarchy inthe household, but it was by age
, not gender.
So any hierarchy in the OldTestament house in the Proverbs
31 woman's household was splitby gender because the genders
had different tasks that theywould do, but it was any
(14:55):
hierarchy was by age, if thatmakes sense.
Elice Kilko (14:58):
Sure, so you have the older, you have the
grandmother, because it was amulti-generation families living
together in close proximity.
So you're talking about thegrandparents, the parents and
children, exactly.
Jessica Jenkins (15:13):
And so you'd have the patriarch and the
matriarch of the household andthey would be the father and the
mother, we would say in ourvernacular.
They would be responsible forthe men under the father, the
women under the mother, forvarious household tasks.
And what's interesting issometimes the current patriarch
and matriarch of the householdmay not be married, because with
(15:34):
the grandparents maybe thegrandpa died.
So now the oldest son is thepatriarch, but grandma's still
alive.
So she's still the matriarch ofthe household, so she's the
mother of the household, he'sthe father of the household, but
he's her son.
So you have this status goingon where the matriarch of the
household in the Old Testamenthad a lot of authority.
(15:58):
She had absolute say-so in herareas and could tell the men in
the household what to do carteblanche if it had to do with her
areas of authority.
Elice Kilko (16:11):
What were some of the typical areas that women had
say over?
Jessica Jenkins (16:20):
So the matriarch would have power and
authority over food.
She was, she had complete inmany ways complete control of
the food.
Um, that is, turning rawingredients into edibles, like
grain into bread, grain intobeer, storage of the food,
baking, creating ovens, decidinghow we're going to use these
(16:44):
ovens as a community becauseovens were often shared between
multiple houses in a villagerationing out the food.
There's even a little tale fromEgypt talking about matriarchal
authority, where the patriarchof the household wants more food
at this meal and the matriarchtells him no and he gets mad and
(17:05):
storms out of the house.
And then the pagan god he'stalking to because it's Egypt
kind of looks at him and is likethat's ridiculous, nobody.
When the matriarch says you getX amount of food and no more,
nobody throws a fit on that.
That is her power.
You may be the patriarch butyou don't get to buck that.
That is matriarchal authority.
(17:25):
Period, paragraph, end ofdiscussion.
She says you get this much food.
You say yes, ma'am, thank you,I appreciate the food.
That is all you get to say.
Elice Kilko (17:34):
And so the women had that's interesting.
Jessica Jenkins (17:36):
They had.
So food, medicine, reproduction, which would be women's menses.
It could often be initiatingsex.
That's why we have Leia rentingJacob from Rachel for the night
, like I've hired our husbandand you're with me and he's like
, oh, okay, so they were incharge of all the various
aspects around reproductionLight.
So they were in charge of allthe various aspects around
(17:57):
reproduction light.
It was the matriarch's job todetermine when we light the
lamps at night, and they wantedthe lamps to run all night long.
Only poor people did not havelamps lit all night and it's her
job.
So imagine, in your householdtoday, elise.
You get to decide when everysingle light switch gets turned
(18:20):
on or off and nobody else getsto touch the light switches
unless you give them directpermission.
That's a lot of power.
That's very significant.
The matriarch would be incharge of settling disputes in
the household and sometimes incommunity, and she would be
hugely influential in communityties.
And she would be hugelyinfluential in community ties,
even inter-village communityrelationships, so knowing what's
(18:53):
going on in your town and cityand helping those relationships
be strong.
So, unlike the complementariangender-based hierarchy,
hierarchy in the Old Testament,cultures was based much more on
in the New Testament in manyways as well, based much more on
social status and age ratherthan gender.
In many ways, the woman of theOld Testament, especially a
(19:17):
matriarch, a mother well, we'lljust say mother, a mother, a
matriarch in the Old Testamenthad more power and agency than
complementarians want to givewomen today.
Elice Kilko (19:29):
That's incredible.
Jessica Jenkins (19:31):
That blew my mind when I realized it and has
very much transformed the way Iview my marriage.
I've been married for 11 yearsI think 11 or 12.
It's transformed the way I viewmy marriage.
It's transformed the way I viewthe Bible when you consider
that some of the complementarynot all, because obviously we
(19:53):
had good examples of healthymarriage dynamics in our homes
growing up, but what was onpaper that I read from
complementarians actuallylimited women in ways the
ancient cultures 4,000 years agodidn't.
Elice Kilko (20:10):
Which is just crazy to think.
Jessica Jenkins (20:13):
In the ancient culture, the husband was not
delegating his authority overthe food to his wife.
She had that because she is thematriarch.
That was part of her status asmatriarch.
It's not.
Kevin, my husband delegates menuplanning to me, so I do it in
submission to him because hedelegated me that job.
(20:35):
No, in the Old Testament that'swhat she does, and if he
doesn't like it too bad, yeah,wow.
So how does it strike you thatwomen in the Old Testament had
more social power in their homesand we're not talking about
external home rule governance,we're talking inside the home
(20:58):
that women in the Old Testamenthad more social power in their
homes than many complementarianswill grant their women.
How does that strike you?
Elice Kilko (21:06):
I think it's empowering to know that God gave
women this full range ofresponsibilities and you know
we've talked about how Proverbs31 isn't a checklist and it's
all these things that a woman ofvalor can do.
(21:28):
But it's empowering to thinkthat in my context and in my
culture I can take theseexamples that God gave and adapt
them to where we are today, inthe 21st century.
I don't have servants who, youknow, cook my food or grind my
(21:51):
wheat or whatever, but I have awasher and I have a dryer and
you know I buy flour that hasalready been milled at the store
.
Um, except for I don't cause Ineed to eat gluten free.
But you know that that idea, Ithink contextualizing what God
(22:13):
said and how that allows me tobe more free in how I show up as
a woman.
It doesn't have to be a reallynarrow view.
I can take that and be a fullrange of who God made me.
Jessica Jenkins (22:27):
I love that.
Yeah, and that really goes offof our last episode.
If you haven't heard the onewhere we talk about the woman,
of valor and her personality andhow God delights in a full
range of expressions ofwomanhood, you have to give that
episode a listen.
So let's talk about in Proverbs31,.
Let's talk about her husband.
(22:48):
We're talking about hermarriage and her husband.
In this episode We've brieflydiscussed kind of the cultural
framework of heterarchy and howtasks in the home would have
functioned.
But let's look at who herhusband is.
In verse 23, and I'm reading myown translation here, which you
(23:10):
can get on my website atwewhothirstcom if you want my
translation of Proverbs 31 fromthe Hebrew text.
Verse 23 says known in thegates is her husband when he
sits with the elders of the land.
So, elise, what do we firstnotice about this man?
Elice Kilko (23:27):
That he's known.
At the gates he sits with theelders, so the gates were where
judgments were often passed down, so it would be like the
courtroom that's where businesswas dealt out.
So he's like a man of staturein the community.
This isn't just like any JoeSchmo, right.
Jessica Jenkins (23:47):
And is this like the sitting at the gates?
Is this like leisure activities?
Is it equivalent to a mankicking back to watch sports
ball after work while his wifecooks and takes care of the kids
?
Or showing up at the bar orcoffee shop and everyone's like,
hey, dude, it's so good to seeyou Like.
Is that the vibe we have here?
Elice Kilko (24:05):
No, it's definitely business.
It's definitely business.
Jessica Jenkins (24:10):
This is more, I would say, like the throne room
, like we think medieval throneroom.
That's where a king would showup to do his ruling and the
judgment.
You'd go to see the king at thethrone room, but that they
didn't, especially in smallercontexts.
The leader of a city didn'talways have a throne room and so
it was the city gate where theelders of the city would all get
(24:31):
together for, as you said, thejudgment and the ruling and
business decisions.
And Proverbs 31, verse 1, saysthat Proverbs 31 is given as the
sayings for King Lemuel fromhis mother, and so it's possible
that this is describing a kindof a king in his courtroom, for
(24:53):
lack of a better term.
So the Proverbs 31 woman,proverbs 31 woman's husband is
he's sitting at the gate, he'ssitting with the elders, he is
not known there because of her.
He has this social status andposition which I really want to
(25:15):
bring out.
Because, especially those whowant to take Proverbs 31 as a
checklist, I always want to lookat them and say, okay, if
Proverbs 31 is a checklist, whenis your husband running for
office?
Is he running for mayor?
Because if you're going to makeProverbs 31 a checklist, he
needs to go get himself on aballot so that he can go sit at
our proverbial gates in townhall.
(25:35):
Yeah, we're talking here abouta couple in their marriage.
They have serious social statusand privilege.
They're not just your averagepeasant family or average
middle-class family in today'svernacular Right.
Elice Kilko (25:52):
So how does the woman of valor influence her
husband's position?
Jessica Jenkins (25:59):
I don't know that she influences her
husband's position directly,like helping him get that
position, but she certainlyhelps with how people view him
in that position.
Ancient Near East women wereseen as liabilities to a man's
honor, because women could bepreyed upon, they could be
sexually assaulted, takenadvantage of, so men were taught
(26:21):
that they needed to guard.
This is that protection piece.
Men were taught they needed toguard their women carefully so
as to protect the wholehousehold's honor.
The woman of valor who'sextremely honorable and
vivacious and doing good thingsfor the community helps a leader
lead well, because if he'sattached to her, he has to be a
(26:44):
pretty decent guy.
Elice Kilko (26:46):
What else can we learn in these verses about the
woman of valor's husband?
Jessica Jenkins (26:52):
We see in verse 11 that he trusts in her.
It says in her the heart of herhusband trusts, and God likes
it when men trust their wives.
How have you usually heard thispart of verse 11 taught?
Elice Kilko (27:12):
So what verse is it ?
I'm just just gonna read itverse 11 um, yeah, I think it's
funny because you see that wordtrust and you think, well, if
the man trusts her, it should be, you know, a partnership, and
yet in so many circles it waslike the woman obeys her husband
(27:36):
.
You know, like that was evenused to be in English vows a
long time ago.
Um, so I definitely didn't, um,my example growing up was just
so different.
But I think that a lot of timesit's not taught in a respectful
way that you know, a man shouldbe able to trust his wife and
(28:02):
oftentimes it wasn't somethingthat was encouraged.
You know the, the woman, youknow the serpent deceived the
woman because she was moregullible, or whatever.
You know, how could a husbandtrust in his wife if she's
gullible, sort?
Jessica Jenkins (28:15):
of that women are foolish.
Elice Kilko (28:16):
you know, how could a husband trust in his wife if
she's gullible, sort of that?
Women are foolish, you know.
And to be clear, that's not howI grew up in my own and with my
parents, but you know that wasjust kind of the understated
kind of in a lot of the waterthat we were swimming.
It's just heartbreaking, oh,it's so heartbreaking.
Jessica Jenkins (28:32):
And you even have heartbreaking oh, it's so
heartbreaking.
And you even have, uh,preachers and pastors like doug
wilson, trigger warning um, whoeven say, like a husband's job
is to kind of stand between hisnagging wife and the kids lest
she nag them.
And it's like, really, that'show men are supposed to view
their wives.
(28:52):
Um, it's, it's not loving werespectful no, and it's
certainly not trusting her.
Of course, the whole Wilsoncamp views women as the ultimate
problem with everything insociety, so that's a whole other
discussion.
Often, when I've heard Proverbs31, 11 taught that her husband
(29:12):
trusts in her, the peopleimmediately go to well, you need
to be a trustworthy woman andthat's how they do it.
It's like you have to make sureyou're trustworthy, which sure
Okay, but I feel like theemphasis here it says he trusts
in her and I really want tofocus on God delights in it when
men trust women.
I don't know if you experiencedthis.
(29:34):
I have Just the again theundercurrents in the culture we
came from, where women weren'tfully trusted.
We were too emotional, we wereeasily deceived, we just weren't
as smart.
A few women might be able torise above and earn trust, but
as a whole we just weren't.
Elice Kilko (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely saw that, and it's
heartbreaking when you see thatin Proverbs 31, the husband is
trusting his wife.
So not only is she trustworthy,but it's not just because she's
trustworthy, it's becausethey're partners.
Jessica Jenkins (30:11):
Yeah, and it's a man in power who's trusting a
woman completely in every way.
Yeah, and I've rarely seen menin power fully trust women.
They might trust theirindividual wife, which great,
(30:31):
that's awesome, but to trustwomen and this verse doesn't say
he trusts all women, he truststhis one, but God delights in it
when women are trustworthy andwhen men trust in them and when
women are given the opportunityto earn that trust.
I'm not saying trust should bejust given carte blanche, but
(30:52):
many women aren't even given theopportunity to earn trust or
prove that they are trustworthybecause they're a woman.
So therefore, why is he?
Elice Kilko (31:03):
There's so much wisdom that we lose when we
don't trust in the godly womenaround us.
Jessica Jenkins (31:12):
I mean in the book of Proverbs.
What gender is wisdom describedas?
The entire book of Proverbs isabout wisdom, and what gender is
it described as?
Elice Kilko (31:22):
A woman, a woman, lady, wisdom.
Jessica Jenkins (31:25):
Lady wisdom.
God expects and delights in it.
When men, communities andchurches trust in godly women,
that's what God loves.
So the Proverbs 31 woman, thewoman of valor, and her husband.
Their marriage functions withmutual respect and understanding
(31:47):
.
They are equal partners intheir community.
Both of them are looking outfor the needs of their own
household and communities andwe'll get into all the nuances
of all of that as we go through.
But he's not leaving her to doall the household work.
Yes, he's in the gate, but he'snot there all the time.
(32:07):
He's probably taking care ofhis own lands and properties and
managing household as well, andhe's trusting her household as
well.
And he's trusting her.
But it's not only does he trusther.
It's likely that he'sleveraging his influence and
honor to help her succeed.
And this isn't just helping hersucceed.
Like buying her a new vacuum tobetter clean the house or a new
(32:29):
microwave to make him dinner.
He is allowing her access tomale spaces to participate in
stereotypically male activitieslike the buying and selling of
land.
He is using his male privilegeand power and influence in his
community to lift up his wifeand thereby all women in the
(32:51):
community.
Elice Kilko (32:54):
That would make a big difference.
Jessica Jenkins (32:57):
How so.
Elice Kilko (33:00):
Well, just in the circles that we've seen, you
know, where women are seen assecond class citizens and not
having, you know, the agency tomake decisions for themselves, I
think that when we read thesepassages and we listen to the
wisdom of you know, the the wisewomen that God has placed in
(33:24):
our life, I mean proverb.
This verse is specificallytalking about a husband
listening to her uh, a husbandlistening to his wife.
But in churches and things when, when churches listen to the
voices of the women, the godlywomen in their church, I think
that that would really reallysteer churches differently and
might cut down with a lot of theabuse that we see happening
(33:46):
just to have more people at thetable, more voices.
Jessica Jenkins (33:52):
And how would things change if, when a woman
stepped up and was like this isa dangerous situation, or he
touched my kid or he touched meor I just get bad vibes like
super creepy If men were like Itrust you, I trust your gut,
we're going to actually do whatwe say men do and protect, like
(34:13):
how that I mean that's just onabuse and then think about
wisdom and everything, like Ithink everything would change if
the playing field for trust andI'm not for those of my
complementarian listeners, I'mnot even saying women should be
preaching or having authority oranything what if we just
leveled the playing field, thatwomen had equal opportunity to
(34:35):
be trusted across the board?
And in some places they do?
I don't remember women beingnot trusted in the specific
church I grew up in with myparents, because my dad did
trust women and he was a pastor.
But once I moved out from thereI immediately started noticing
(34:55):
lack of trust.
I noticed a pastor.
I was invited to a Sunday schoolteacher's thing.
I'm a single woman at thispoint.
He goes down the row, greetsevery single person, skips me.
The only single woman in theroom doesn't even acknowledge
I'm there and keeps goinggreeting every single person
Married women got greeted Once Iwas married.
(35:16):
He would give me a big hug.
Single women, not trustworthy.
Don't even look at her.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
What would happen if we treatedwomen or gave them the
opportunity to earn trust ratherthan assuming distrust off the
bat?
Elice Kilko (35:36):
Makes such a big difference.
So let's so what else?
What else does Proverbs 31 haveto say about the woman of
valor's husband?
Jessica Jenkins (35:47):
Verse 28, this goes off of the trust he her
husband rises and then hepraises her.
Husband rises and then hepraises her.
So often this is taught bepraiseworthy, he praises her.
You better be worth it.
But again, what if we hadcultures and communities and I'm
not just talking about husbandsor men, because I don't want to
(36:08):
bag on men, because women arejust as guilty of the not
trusting women as men are.
Often they're worse.
What if our cultures andcommunities and churches would
praise godly women?
What if our husbands would dothat?
What if men in power wouldpraise or people in power would
(36:30):
praise worthy people, men orwomen?
What if that was the culturalframework of our communities and
churches?
How would that changeeverything?
Elice Kilko (36:42):
I think it would just help everybody to want to
be their best self.
It really challenges you.
If you're held to a more lovingand high standard and you're
praised for the good that you do, it makes you want to challenge
yourself to be better.
(37:03):
Yeah, it holds you to thishigher standard that you want to
attain, yeah, so.
So in Jewish custom, um onSabbath, on Sabbath, many times,
before the kiddush, thebeginning prayer for Sabbath,
oftentimes they'll give aspecial prayer for the women of
(37:25):
the household and it's calledthe Eshet Chayil or the woman of
valor, and it's this blessingthat is spoken over the mother
of the house and the daughters.
You see a cultural reference tothis in like Fiddler on the
Roof in the Sabbath prayer songthat they do.
(37:46):
But this calling of may you belike Ruth and like Esther, may
you be a woman of valor, may youattain, you know, these things.
And it gives this example andit gives all these beautiful
examples and it calls then thewomen to be this and it praises
the women for doing so.
(38:06):
So it's not just here's achecklist of all the things you
need to do, it says it'sblessing them to be that which I
love.
Jessica Jenkins (38:14):
It's part of the culture.
You have this culture thatweakly, praises and honors the
women.
It's part of the culture andthat is really beautiful.
As we look at Proverbs 31through the lens of delight,
these are things that make Godhappy.
These are things God's heartdelights in.
(38:35):
He delights in it when husbandstrust their wives.
He delights in it when husbandspraise their wives.
Of course, we want to be womenwho are trustworthy and
praiseworthy and all the things,but when we look at entire
cultural frameworks.
I know more women who areworking hard to be trustworthy
(38:57):
and praiseworthy women than Isee cultural structures and
desires to praise them and trustthem.
Yeah, what would happenculturally if trusting and
praising that would shifteverything.
Elice Kilko (39:19):
I think it would.
It would make a big difference.
Jessica Jenkins (39:24):
So, as we close today, I want to remind all of
us that women who are trustedcan flourish, or at least women
who are given the opportunity toearn trust.
I'm not saying we just pass itout on the street corner, but
women need the opportunity tolearn trust, and women held in
suspicion will learn to distrusttheir own God-given intuition
(39:48):
and wisdom, which will in turnmake them more susceptible to
abuse and susceptible to falseteaching.
I read an author recentlysaying that because women are
nurturing and gentle, theyshouldn't be pastors because
they would be led astray byfalse teaching.
So you're not trusting women,which will keep them from
(40:11):
trusting themselves, so thatthey cannot trust that they're
understanding theology and youwill have a self-fulfilling
prophecy.
You are creating the womenyou're decrying by your very
words.
And again, I am not arguing inthis episode either way on
whether women should be pastorsor not.
Whether his claim on that is,I'm not even going there but
(40:35):
when you deny womentrustworthiness as part of their
essence that was ThomasSchreiner, by the way, who said
that.
He may have updated it andtaken that out of a more recent
copy of his work, which I do nothave, but the fact that it was
still published at all is anissue work which I do not have,
(40:57):
but the fact that it was stillpublished at all is an issue,
because you have these authorswho are creating, on purpose,
mistrust of women across theboard.
That does not please God.
This is a hill I will die on.
Elice Kilko (41:11):
Yes, for sure it's an important one.
Jessica Jenkins (41:15):
Yes, for sure.
It's an important one.
God delights in it when womenare trusted and we see Jesus
trust women.
Who was it that got to tellabout the resurrection?
It was the person who could nothold testimony in a court of
law because the men didn't trustwomen, but Jesus trusted.
(41:36):
Women didn't trust women, butJesus trusted women to carry the
best news that ever there wasthat Jesus is alive.
Jesus trusted women.
Paul trusted women to bring theletters where they needed to go
.
God trusted Deborah.
I mean, I could go on.
Yes, there are so many examples.
Elice Kilko (41:52):
I mean, I could go on.
Yes, there are so many examples, but we have to take that
seriously.
Jessica Jenkins (41:58):
God delights in it when women are trusted, and
that starts with us.
It's easy to be like okay,pastors, you need to start
trusting women.
Okay, what about us?
Are we willing to trust women?
Because we carry internalizedmisogyny as well.
Elice Kilko (42:17):
Yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (42:18):
We've absorbed those, those thoughts I know
I've I've struggled with.
Well, I'm not like those womenbecause I'm educated and have a
stronger personality, so ofcourse I'm able to understand,
but they're not.
You know, I I participate, I'vedrunk the water.
Elice Kilko (42:35):
Yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (42:36):
I've swallowed it into my lungs.
I'm trying to spew it back outand be like no, this is not
God's desire for women.
This is not what he loves.
Elice Kilko (42:48):
So what else do we need to know before we close
this subject about the woman ofvalor and her husband?
Close this subject about thewoman of valor and her?
Jessica Jenkins (42:55):
husband.
A community in which women canthrive, or anybody can thrive,
is a community built on trustand that goes across gender
lines, across racial lines,across socioeconomic lines.
God wants unity in his church.
Unity is what he delights inand he wants that for us across
(43:20):
all of the divides, and he wantsus to trust him above all else.
And though God rules all andsits with the angels in heaven,
he sees women's faith.
If you're a woman sitting therelistening, he sees your faith,
(43:41):
he sees your hard work, he seesyour desire to know him and he
honors that he loves us.
He likes how he created women,each woman individually with her
own strengths and passions.
In each woman individually withher own strengths and passions.
God wants to showcase what hehas done in you to the world.
(44:02):
God trusts you as you walk inthe spirit and let him guide you
.
He loves you and, as theProverbs 31, woman's husband
raises her and trusts her.
Your heavenly father will liftyou up and trust you and gift
(44:25):
you what you need to betrustworthy and praiseworthy and
full of fruits of the spiritand all the things, because he
delights in you as his child.
That's so good.
Thank you, elise, for beingwith us.
I cannot wait to talk about ournext episode, which will be
(44:46):
talking about the Proverbs 31woman's home.
We're going to get into thewhole homemaking thing next
episode.
I love it.
I'm so excited into the wholehomemaking thing next episode.
Elice Kilko (44:55):
So I love it.
Jessica Jenkins (44:55):
I'm so excited, awesome, all right.
Well, until then, may the Lordbless you and keep you.
May he make his face shine uponyou and give you peace.
Have a good day.
Today we are continuing our Proverbs 31
series by looking at therelationship between the woman
of valor, whose personality wediscussed in the last episode,
and her husband.
With me today is my dear friendElise Kilko, who has a degree
in counseling.
She has been married for nineyears and in that time has
confronted deep questions aboutthe goodness of God around
(00:22):
singleness and marriage.
Deep questions about thegoodness of God around
singleness and marriage.
Her heart is for women to knowGod's deep love for them and to
walk in confidence in theirmarriages.
Elise, we both grew up inmiddle to hard complementarian
spaces.
How would you describe theideal relationship in those
spaces between a husband and awife?
Elice Kilko (00:43):
That's a good question.
I definitely grew up withparents who I like to say they
were respectful complementarians.
They were complementarians.
My dad definitely saw himselfas the head of the household.
My mom definitely saw her placeas one of submission, but they
were very respectful and havebeen of each other's opinions
(01:04):
and very loving.
So I feel like, under theumbrella of complementarian-ness
, I feel like I had a reallygood example and I would say, as
I get older, I definitely seethe relationship between a
husband and a wife as one ofpartnership, working together to
(01:29):
grow their household, love eachother well and figure out what
the division of labor in theirhousehold will be Absolutely
Divided, not just on what ourculture says this is what girls
do, this is what boys do butrather each spouse's talents and
(01:52):
abilities.
Jessica Jenkins (01:53):
As I get older, I see the need for more nuance
contrast kind of with the way amarriage relationship was
described in the typicalevangelical space,
complementarian world you grewup in.
Elice Kilko (02:13):
Well, I think it definitely.
In our house, you know, my dadusually did most of the driving.
My dad always told us growingup that he's the one that taught
my mom to cook.
But other than Sunday morningwhen he would braise the roast
beef to go into the oven beforechurch, we didn't see him
(02:35):
cooking much.
So it was still kind ofexpected that my mom would do
most of the cooking, most of theyou know laundry and things
like that, most of the cooking,most of the you know laundry and
things like that.
So it was kind of that, youknow, there was that love and
thought for each other.
But then there was still a verytraditionally American division
of labor, I guess would be thebest way to say it.
Jessica Jenkins (02:56):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I definitely experienced a lotof the same.
My dad my mom had somedisabilities growing up so he
would step in and do some thingsjust because her disabilities
required it.
And my parents, like yours,like it was a complimentary
marriage, absolutely Like dad.
(03:17):
My dad would always be like thebuck stops here, but he was
also a collaborative decisionmaker.
My dad was not everauthoritarian in his marriage or
like I'm the boss in hismarriage.
He's naturally a collaborativedecision maker and he wanted my
mom's opinion and input and eventhough they said like if
(03:41):
there's a disagreement he getsto make the final call, I don't
know that he would have beenfully comfortable making the
final call if she wasn't inagreement, because he just liked
that collaboration.
And so that's kind of thecomplementarian marriage I grew
up under and with which was avery healthy relationship,
dynamic, like it was a healthy,quality marriage.
Elice Kilko (04:04):
But that wasn't necessarily when I especially
when I moved out on my own thetype of marriage that was
described to me in some of thecomplementarian literature and
work and culture that I wasaround with very respectful
(04:26):
parents, parents who arerespectful to each other, and
yet in the greater, you knowriver that they were swimming in
, things were so much more blackand white than the homes that
we grew up in.
Jessica Jenkins (04:34):
Yeah, because I remember learning like oh,
what's his name Bill Gothard'sumbrella Like, and we would talk
that would be referencedloosely in our household and it
was in some of the books andstuff we had.
But it was never hardcore,taught or held to.
But when you move out of thehouse, where there's the way you
(04:56):
practice at home, that becamevery much the overt thoughts and
way things should be doneoutside of that where, like, the
man is the boss period andthat's just the way it is in
some of the outside of my homegrowing up.
Complementarian world.
Elice Kilko (05:18):
Yeah, and that can get so dangerous so quickly.
Jessica Jenkins (05:22):
Like one of the dorm moms at the Bible college,
I went to even told like hergirls, you don't disagree with
your husband.
Elice Kilko (05:29):
Wow, that's really yeah.
And of the conservative schools, you didn't go to the most
conservative either.
Jessica Jenkins (05:36):
No, I didn't, but in comparison to other ones
I see now it was pretty up there.
It just wasn't as some.
So authority and submissionwere supposed to be very kind
and loving, and in our homesthey absolutely were, but in the
world outside it was a littlemore black and white, that the
(05:57):
man is the boss and the woman issupposed to submit and she's
not necessarily even supposed toquestion that sometimes
necessarily even supposed toquestion that sometimes.
Elice Kilko (06:10):
Yeah, some complementarian leaders claim
that the husband has theultimate say-so I definitely
heard that but that he delegatesresponsibility to his wife.
I heard that all the timegrowing up, did you?
Jessica Jenkins (06:17):
Yes, yes, the wife is responsible for the home
and she has decision-makingpower in the home, but only
because the husband gave herthat responsibility, because
ultimately it's all his.
He's the only one with power.
Any power or responsibility shehas is because he delegated and
passed some of his off to herunder his umbrella.
(06:40):
And a good husband does thatcheerfully, lovingly, and just
gives that to her, but it'sstill ultimately his
philosophically, in this mindsetwe were raised in.
Elice Kilko (06:52):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely grew up with that.
Is your view different now?
Jessica Jenkins (06:58):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I believe very much thata husband and wife need to work
in partnership together and Iwould say I have a much more
egalitarian view of marriagetoday.
That mutual submission is thegoal we need to have in our
marriage reins.
That shifts the dynamic some.
It's not the same equalityhusbands and wives have, but the
(07:34):
husband delegates everything tothe wife.
No, I definitely don't followthat, and learning about the
historical culture of the Bibleand especially around Proverbs
31, has really helped shift mymindset on that, away from that
idea.
I think some of the view ofmarriage that we were raised in,
that kind of that, that notnecessarily what we saw
exemplified for us in ourparents because they had very
(07:56):
healthy marriages and I have somuch respect for both of their
marriages.
But the general current theview of marriage that goes along
with that complementarian viewof gender roles.
A simple phrase used todescribe that I've seen is men
lead, women follow, and I try tosay if they're, some of them
try to be like well, it'shusbands and wives.
(08:17):
Some, like John Piper, are likeno, that's everybody always
kind of the general vibe you'resupposed to be going for.
Elice Kilko (08:24):
Women can't even give directions.
Jessica Jenkins (08:26):
Right yeah, john.
Piper straight up said a womanshould not ever give a directive
to a man, even if he asks herfor driving directions.
We won't get into that.
But how tightly people hold tothat depends on how much freedom
and agency they give theirwomen.
(08:47):
We saw our fathers didn't holdto that super tightly and gave
our mothers quite a bit offreedom and agency and gave
their daughters quite a bit offreedom and agency.
But on paper, when you startreading the complementarian
works like Rediscovering orRecovering Biblical Manhood and
Womanhood, or those major worksand writings on
(09:10):
complementarianism, they removea lot of that freedom and agency
and power from women.
Women are placed completelyunder the men and any power
agency they have is delegated tothem from the man.
Elice Kilko (09:28):
Can you give me an example of where they do that?
Jessica Jenkins (09:32):
George Knight tells us that the wife must
recognize that her management ofthe home is to be conducted in
submission to her husband'sleadership.
Who the husband is responsiblefor the overall management of
the household.
So the husband's responsibleand she just conducts her
sub-management under hismanagement.
Elice Kilko (09:56):
Wow.
Any other examples?
Jessica Jenkins (09:59):
Dorothy Patterson says Proverbs 31
contains a full-length portraitof a godly heroine, finished in
minute detail.
There's no mention of rights orpursuit of self-serving
interests, neither is thehusband assigned to domestic
pursuits.
There is no hint in the passagethat she has any other purpose
than to meet the needs of herfamily in the best possible way.
Elice Kilko (10:22):
Oh boy.
Jessica Jenkins (10:23):
Oh yeah.
So this is the type of stuff,especially after I moved out of
the house and my examples formarriage were no longer just my
parents, where my fatherparticipated in so much of the
household stuff, child care, allof it.
I went to seminary underDorothy Patterson.
(10:44):
Dorothy Patterson told me thatif a wife is working outside of
the home, that constitutes alack of faith, because the wife
has to be the homemaker in thehome and the husband has to be
the breadwinner provider.
And if there is any otherarrangement, is it because they
have a lack of faith?
Elice Kilko (11:05):
Oh wow, that's a very big claim, it is.
Jessica Jenkins (11:10):
Yes, and so that is a lot because you have
this men lead, women follow idea.
And then you have the men haveto be the providers period.
The woman is the housekeeperand baby maker, nurturer person
period.
That's it Like box, you don'tmove outside that and it's taken
me years to work through thatto be able to have a better idea
(11:33):
and understanding.
Old Testament culture hashelped with that immeasurably.
Elice Kilko (11:39):
So, as you study biblical context, what have you
learned about how the wife andhusband work together in their
home?
Jessica Jenkins (11:50):
That's a fantastic question and if you
want more detail than I can givein this episode, see my lecture
on YouTube on patricentrism andheterarchy.
Search YouTube for we whoThirst podcasts and you'll be
able to find that lecture withthe full visuals there, but the
short version is.
In the ancient Near East theybasically had three roles that
(12:13):
people would have.
There was protection,procreation and provision.
So I'm going to contrast thosethree roles protection,
procreation, provision with thekind of ideal roles we were
raised with incomplementarianism, which is the
man leads and provides, thewoman submits and takes care of
the house.
And so in the ancient world theman would do the protection,
(12:38):
which complementarians would saythat as well, he needs to
protect.
They also say he needs toprovide, which in the ancient
world was shared Everybody inthe household husband, wife,
children, adult children,grandparents, servants, brothers
or sisters who are still livingin the house.
All of them are responsible forprovision.
(12:59):
It's not the man who is thebreadwinner, it's the entire
family working together.
So that changed my mind on itdramatically.
The only two static gender rolesin the ancient Near East that
pretty much every culture had,these gender roles for men and
women were protection andprocreation, because men are
stereotypically bigger andstronger and so better at
protecting, and women wereprotection and procreation.
(13:19):
Because men are stereotypicallybigger and stronger and so
better at protecting, and womenare the only ones who can
physically have babies, so thatwas their responsibility.
Everything else, in many waysin the household level, was
shared.
Also, though, in a thehouseholds were not patriarchal.
The way the complementarians wegrew up with talked about
(13:42):
hierarchy.
Were you given at all BillGothard's umbrella diagram?
Elice Kilko (13:51):
Yeah, so my dad didn't like Bill Gothard, but I
am familiar with it and growingup I was familiar.
It was something that I saw,you know, drawn on whiteboards
in schools and churches.
So, yeah, I was familiar withit growing up.
Jessica Jenkins (14:09):
And for anybody who's not familiar?
it's basically the idea thatit's umbrellas of protection.
So you have God, who is overthe man, who is then over the
woman, who's over the children,and it's a very strong
gender-based hierarchy man,woman, children.
But in the ancient world, inOld Testament Israel, things
(14:31):
were much more heterarchical,which means it wasn't a
gender-based hierarchy.
There was still hierarchy inthe household, but it was by age
, not gender.
So any hierarchy in the OldTestament house in the Proverbs
31 woman's household was splitby gender because the genders
had different tasks that theywould do, but it was any
(14:55):
hierarchy was by age, if thatmakes sense.
Elice Kilko (14:58):
Sure, so you have the older, you have the
grandmother, because it was amulti-generation families living
together in close proximity.
So you're talking about thegrandparents, the parents and
children, exactly.
Jessica Jenkins (15:13):
And so you'd have the patriarch and the
matriarch of the household andthey would be the father and the
mother, we would say in ourvernacular.
They would be responsible forthe men under the father, the
women under the mother, forvarious household tasks.
And what's interesting issometimes the current patriarch
and matriarch of the householdmay not be married, because with
(15:34):
the grandparents maybe thegrandpa died.
So now the oldest son is thepatriarch, but grandma's still
alive.
So she's still the matriarch ofthe household, so she's the
mother of the household, he'sthe father of the household, but
he's her son.
So you have this status goingon where the matriarch of the
household in the Old Testamenthad a lot of authority.
(15:58):
She had absolute say-so in herareas and could tell the men in
the household what to do carteblanche if it had to do with her
areas of authority.
Elice Kilko (16:11):
What were some of the typical areas that women had
say over?
Jessica Jenkins (16:20):
So the matriarch would have power and
authority over food.
She was, she had complete inmany ways complete control of
the food.
Um, that is, turning rawingredients into edibles, like
grain into bread, grain intobeer, storage of the food,
baking, creating ovens, decidinghow we're going to use these
(16:44):
ovens as a community becauseovens were often shared between
multiple houses in a villagerationing out the food.
There's even a little tale fromEgypt talking about matriarchal
authority, where the patriarchof the household wants more food
at this meal and the matriarchtells him no and he gets mad and
(17:05):
storms out of the house.
And then the pagan god he'stalking to because it's Egypt
kind of looks at him and is likethat's ridiculous, nobody.
When the matriarch says you getX amount of food and no more,
nobody throws a fit on that.
That is her power.
You may be the patriarch butyou don't get to buck that.
That is matriarchal authority.
(17:25):
Period, paragraph, end ofdiscussion.
She says you get this much food.
You say yes, ma'am, thank you,I appreciate the food.
That is all you get to say.
Elice Kilko (17:34):
And so the women had that's interesting.
Jessica Jenkins (17:36):
They had.
So food, medicine, reproduction, which would be women's menses.
It could often be initiatingsex.
That's why we have Leia rentingJacob from Rachel for the night
, like I've hired our husbandand you're with me and he's like
, oh, okay, so they were incharge of all the various
aspects around reproductionLight.
So they were in charge of allthe various aspects around
(17:57):
reproduction light.
It was the matriarch's job todetermine when we light the
lamps at night, and they wantedthe lamps to run all night long.
Only poor people did not havelamps lit all night and it's her
job.
So imagine, in your householdtoday, elise.
You get to decide when everysingle light switch gets turned
(18:20):
on or off and nobody else getsto touch the light switches
unless you give them directpermission.
That's a lot of power.
That's very significant.
The matriarch would be incharge of settling disputes in
the household and sometimes incommunity, and she would be
hugely influential in communityties.
And she would be hugelyinfluential in community ties,
even inter-village communityrelationships, so knowing what's
(18:53):
going on in your town and cityand helping those relationships
be strong.
So, unlike the complementariangender-based hierarchy,
hierarchy in the Old Testament,cultures was based much more on
in the New Testament in manyways as well, based much more on
social status and age ratherthan gender.
In many ways, the woman of theOld Testament, especially a
(19:17):
matriarch, a mother well, we'lljust say mother, a mother, a
matriarch in the Old Testamenthad more power and agency than
complementarians want to givewomen today.
Elice Kilko (19:29):
That's incredible.
Jessica Jenkins (19:31):
That blew my mind when I realized it and has
very much transformed the way Iview my marriage.
I've been married for 11 yearsI think 11 or 12.
It's transformed the way I viewmy marriage.
It's transformed the way I viewthe Bible when you consider
that some of the complementarynot all, because obviously we
(19:53):
had good examples of healthymarriage dynamics in our homes
growing up, but what was onpaper that I read from
complementarians actuallylimited women in ways the
ancient cultures 4,000 years agodidn't.
Elice Kilko (20:10):
Which is just crazy to think.
Jessica Jenkins (20:13):
In the ancient culture, the husband was not
delegating his authority overthe food to his wife.
She had that because she is thematriarch.
That was part of her status asmatriarch.
It's not.
Kevin, my husband delegates menuplanning to me, so I do it in
submission to him because hedelegated me that job.
(20:35):
No, in the Old Testament that'swhat she does, and if he
doesn't like it too bad, yeah,wow.
So how does it strike you thatwomen in the Old Testament had
more social power in their homesand we're not talking about
external home rule governance,we're talking inside the home
(20:58):
that women in the Old Testamenthad more social power in their
homes than many complementarianswill grant their women.
How does that strike you?
Elice Kilko (21:06):
I think it's empowering to know that God gave
women this full range ofresponsibilities and you know
we've talked about how Proverbs31 isn't a checklist and it's
all these things that a woman ofvalor can do.
(21:28):
But it's empowering to thinkthat in my context and in my
culture I can take theseexamples that God gave and adapt
them to where we are today, inthe 21st century.
I don't have servants who, youknow, cook my food or grind my
(21:51):
wheat or whatever, but I have awasher and I have a dryer and
you know I buy flour that hasalready been milled at the store
.
Um, except for I don't cause Ineed to eat gluten free.
But you know that that idea, Ithink contextualizing what God
(22:13):
said and how that allows me tobe more free in how I show up as
a woman.
It doesn't have to be a reallynarrow view.
I can take that and be a fullrange of who God made me.
Jessica Jenkins (22:27):
I love that.
Yeah, and that really goes offof our last episode.
If you haven't heard the onewhere we talk about the woman,
of valor and her personality andhow God delights in a full
range of expressions ofwomanhood, you have to give that
episode a listen.
So let's talk about in Proverbs31,.
Let's talk about her husband.
(22:48):
We're talking about hermarriage and her husband.
In this episode We've brieflydiscussed kind of the cultural
framework of heterarchy and howtasks in the home would have
functioned.
But let's look at who herhusband is.
In verse 23, and I'm reading myown translation here, which you
(23:10):
can get on my website atwewhothirstcom if you want my
translation of Proverbs 31 fromthe Hebrew text.
Verse 23 says known in thegates is her husband when he
sits with the elders of the land.
So, elise, what do we firstnotice about this man?
Elice Kilko (23:27):
That he's known.
At the gates he sits with theelders, so the gates were where
judgments were often passed down, so it would be like the
courtroom that's where businesswas dealt out.
So he's like a man of staturein the community.
This isn't just like any JoeSchmo, right.
Jessica Jenkins (23:47):
And is this like the sitting at the gates?
Is this like leisure activities?
Is it equivalent to a mankicking back to watch sports
ball after work while his wifecooks and takes care of the kids
?
Or showing up at the bar orcoffee shop and everyone's like,
hey, dude, it's so good to seeyou Like.
Is that the vibe we have here?
Elice Kilko (24:05):
No, it's definitely business.
It's definitely business.
Jessica Jenkins (24:10):
This is more, I would say, like the throne room
, like we think medieval throneroom.
That's where a king would showup to do his ruling and the
judgment.
You'd go to see the king at thethrone room, but that they
didn't, especially in smallercontexts.
The leader of a city didn'talways have a throne room and so
it was the city gate where theelders of the city would all get
(24:31):
together for, as you said, thejudgment and the ruling and
business decisions.
And Proverbs 31, verse 1, saysthat Proverbs 31 is given as the
sayings for King Lemuel fromhis mother, and so it's possible
that this is describing a kindof a king in his courtroom, for
(24:53):
lack of a better term.
So the Proverbs 31 woman,proverbs 31 woman's husband is
he's sitting at the gate, he'ssitting with the elders, he is
not known there because of her.
He has this social status andposition which I really want to
(25:15):
bring out.
Because, especially those whowant to take Proverbs 31 as a
checklist, I always want to lookat them and say, okay, if
Proverbs 31 is a checklist, whenis your husband running for
office?
Is he running for mayor?
Because if you're going to makeProverbs 31 a checklist, he
needs to go get himself on aballot so that he can go sit at
our proverbial gates in townhall.
(25:35):
Yeah, we're talking here abouta couple in their marriage.
They have serious social statusand privilege.
They're not just your averagepeasant family or average
middle-class family in today'svernacular Right.
Elice Kilko (25:52):
So how does the woman of valor influence her
husband's position?
Jessica Jenkins (25:59):
I don't know that she influences her
husband's position directly,like helping him get that
position, but she certainlyhelps with how people view him
in that position.
Ancient Near East women wereseen as liabilities to a man's
honor, because women could bepreyed upon, they could be
sexually assaulted, takenadvantage of, so men were taught
(26:21):
that they needed to guard.
This is that protection piece.
Men were taught they needed toguard their women carefully so
as to protect the wholehousehold's honor.
The woman of valor who'sextremely honorable and
vivacious and doing good thingsfor the community helps a leader
lead well, because if he'sattached to her, he has to be a
(26:44):
pretty decent guy.
Elice Kilko (26:46):
What else can we learn in these verses about the
woman of valor's husband?
Jessica Jenkins (26:52):
We see in verse 11 that he trusts in her.
It says in her the heart of herhusband trusts, and God likes
it when men trust their wives.
How have you usually heard thispart of verse 11 taught?
Elice Kilko (27:12):
So what verse is it ?
I'm just just gonna read itverse 11 um, yeah, I think it's
funny because you see that wordtrust and you think, well, if
the man trusts her, it should be, you know, a partnership, and
yet in so many circles it waslike the woman obeys her husband
(27:36):
.
You know, like that was evenused to be in English vows a
long time ago.
Um, so I definitely didn't, um,my example growing up was just
so different.
But I think that a lot of timesit's not taught in a respectful
way that you know, a man shouldbe able to trust his wife and
(28:02):
oftentimes it wasn't somethingthat was encouraged.
You know the, the woman, youknow the serpent deceived the
woman because she was moregullible, or whatever.
You know, how could a husbandtrust in his wife if she's
gullible, sort?
Jessica Jenkins (28:15):
of that women are foolish.
Elice Kilko (28:16):
you know, how could a husband trust in his wife if
she's gullible, sort of that?
Women are foolish, you know.
And to be clear, that's not howI grew up in my own and with my
parents, but you know that wasjust kind of the understated
kind of in a lot of the waterthat we were swimming.
It's just heartbreaking, oh,it's so heartbreaking.
Jessica Jenkins (28:32):
And you even have heartbreaking oh, it's so
heartbreaking.
And you even have, uh,preachers and pastors like doug
wilson, trigger warning um, whoeven say, like a husband's job
is to kind of stand between hisnagging wife and the kids lest
she nag them.
And it's like, really, that'show men are supposed to view
their wives.
(28:52):
Um, it's, it's not loving werespectful no, and it's
certainly not trusting her.
Of course, the whole Wilsoncamp views women as the ultimate
problem with everything insociety, so that's a whole other
discussion.
Often, when I've heard Proverbs31, 11 taught that her husband
(29:12):
trusts in her, the peopleimmediately go to well, you need
to be a trustworthy woman andthat's how they do it.
It's like you have to make sureyou're trustworthy, which sure
Okay, but I feel like theemphasis here it says he trusts
in her and I really want tofocus on God delights in it when
men trust women.
I don't know if you experiencedthis.
(29:34):
I have Just the again theundercurrents in the culture we
came from, where women weren'tfully trusted.
We were too emotional, we wereeasily deceived, we just weren't
as smart.
A few women might be able torise above and earn trust, but
as a whole we just weren't.
Elice Kilko (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely saw that, and it's
heartbreaking when you see thatin Proverbs 31, the husband is
trusting his wife.
So not only is she trustworthy,but it's not just because she's
trustworthy, it's becausethey're partners.
Jessica Jenkins (30:11):
Yeah, and it's a man in power who's trusting a
woman completely in every way.
Yeah, and I've rarely seen menin power fully trust women.
They might trust theirindividual wife, which great,
(30:31):
that's awesome, but to trustwomen and this verse doesn't say
he trusts all women, he truststhis one, but God delights in it
when women are trustworthy andwhen men trust in them and when
women are given the opportunityto earn that trust.
I'm not saying trust should bejust given carte blanche, but
(30:52):
many women aren't even given theopportunity to earn trust or
prove that they are trustworthybecause they're a woman.
So therefore, why is he?
Elice Kilko (31:03):
There's so much wisdom that we lose when we
don't trust in the godly womenaround us.
Jessica Jenkins (31:12):
I mean in the book of Proverbs.
What gender is wisdom describedas?
The entire book of Proverbs isabout wisdom, and what gender is
it described as?
Elice Kilko (31:22):
A woman, a woman, lady, wisdom.
Jessica Jenkins (31:25):
Lady wisdom.
God expects and delights in it.
When men, communities andchurches trust in godly women,
that's what God loves.
So the Proverbs 31 woman, thewoman of valor, and her husband.
Their marriage functions withmutual respect and understanding
(31:47):
.
They are equal partners intheir community.
Both of them are looking outfor the needs of their own
household and communities andwe'll get into all the nuances
of all of that as we go through.
But he's not leaving her to doall the household work.
Yes, he's in the gate, but he'snot there all the time.
(32:07):
He's probably taking care ofhis own lands and properties and
managing household as well, andhe's trusting her household as
well.
And he's trusting her.
But it's not only does he trusther.
It's likely that he'sleveraging his influence and
honor to help her succeed.
And this isn't just helping hersucceed.
Like buying her a new vacuum tobetter clean the house or a new
(32:29):
microwave to make him dinner.
He is allowing her access tomale spaces to participate in
stereotypically male activitieslike the buying and selling of
land.
He is using his male privilegeand power and influence in his
community to lift up his wifeand thereby all women in the
(32:51):
community.
Elice Kilko (32:54):
That would make a big difference.
Jessica Jenkins (32:57):
How so.
Elice Kilko (33:00):
Well, just in the circles that we've seen, you
know, where women are seen assecond class citizens and not
having, you know, the agency tomake decisions for themselves, I
think that when we read thesepassages and we listen to the
wisdom of you know, the the wisewomen that God has placed in
(33:24):
our life, I mean proverb.
This verse is specificallytalking about a husband
listening to her uh, a husbandlistening to his wife.
But in churches and things when, when churches listen to the
voices of the women, the godlywomen in their church, I think
that that would really reallysteer churches differently and
might cut down with a lot of theabuse that we see happening
(33:46):
just to have more people at thetable, more voices.
Jessica Jenkins (33:52):
And how would things change if, when a woman
stepped up and was like this isa dangerous situation, or he
touched my kid or he touched meor I just get bad vibes like
super creepy If men were like Itrust you, I trust your gut,
we're going to actually do whatwe say men do and protect, like
(34:13):
how that I mean that's just onabuse and then think about
wisdom and everything, like Ithink everything would change if
the playing field for trust andI'm not for those of my
complementarian listeners, I'mnot even saying women should be
preaching or having authority oranything what if we just
leveled the playing field, thatwomen had equal opportunity to
(34:35):
be trusted across the board?
And in some places they do?
I don't remember women beingnot trusted in the specific
church I grew up in with myparents, because my dad did
trust women and he was a pastor.
But once I moved out from thereI immediately started noticing
(34:55):
lack of trust.
I noticed a pastor.
I was invited to a Sunday schoolteacher's thing.
I'm a single woman at thispoint.
He goes down the row, greetsevery single person, skips me.
The only single woman in theroom doesn't even acknowledge
I'm there and keeps goinggreeting every single person
Married women got greeted Once Iwas married.
(35:16):
He would give me a big hug.
Single women, not trustworthy.
Don't even look at her.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
What would happen if we treatedwomen or gave them the
opportunity to earn trust ratherthan assuming distrust off the
bat?
Elice Kilko (35:36):
Makes such a big difference.
So let's so what else?
What else does Proverbs 31 haveto say about the woman of
valor's husband?
Jessica Jenkins (35:47):
Verse 28, this goes off of the trust he her
husband rises and then hepraises her.
Husband rises and then hepraises her.
So often this is taught bepraiseworthy, he praises her.
You better be worth it.
But again, what if we hadcultures and communities and I'm
not just talking about husbandsor men, because I don't want to
(36:08):
bag on men, because women arejust as guilty of the not
trusting women as men are.
Often they're worse.
What if our cultures andcommunities and churches would
praise godly women?
What if our husbands would dothat?
What if men in power wouldpraise or people in power would
(36:30):
praise worthy people, men orwomen?
What if that was the culturalframework of our communities and
churches?
How would that changeeverything?
Elice Kilko (36:42):
I think it would just help everybody to want to
be their best self.
It really challenges you.
If you're held to a more lovingand high standard and you're
praised for the good that you do, it makes you want to challenge
yourself to be better.
(37:03):
Yeah, it holds you to thishigher standard that you want to
attain, yeah, so.
So in Jewish custom, um onSabbath, on Sabbath, many times,
before the kiddush, thebeginning prayer for Sabbath,
oftentimes they'll give aspecial prayer for the women of
(37:25):
the household and it's calledthe Eshet Chayil or the woman of
valor, and it's this blessingthat is spoken over the mother
of the house and the daughters.
You see a cultural reference tothis in like Fiddler on the
Roof in the Sabbath prayer songthat they do.
(37:46):
But this calling of may you belike Ruth and like Esther, may
you be a woman of valor, may youattain, you know, these things.
And it gives this example andit gives all these beautiful
examples and it calls then thewomen to be this and it praises
the women for doing so.
(38:06):
So it's not just here's achecklist of all the things you
need to do, it says it'sblessing them to be that which I
love.
Jessica Jenkins (38:14):
It's part of the culture.
You have this culture thatweakly, praises and honors the
women.
It's part of the culture andthat is really beautiful.
As we look at Proverbs 31through the lens of delight,
these are things that make Godhappy.
These are things God's heartdelights in.
(38:35):
He delights in it when husbandstrust their wives.
He delights in it when husbandspraise their wives.
Of course, we want to be womenwho are trustworthy and
praiseworthy and all the things,but when we look at entire
cultural frameworks.
I know more women who areworking hard to be trustworthy
(38:57):
and praiseworthy women than Isee cultural structures and
desires to praise them and trustthem.
Yeah, what would happenculturally if trusting and
praising that would shifteverything.
Elice Kilko (39:19):
I think it would.
It would make a big difference.
Jessica Jenkins (39:24):
So, as we close today, I want to remind all of
us that women who are trustedcan flourish, or at least women
who are given the opportunity toearn trust.
I'm not saying we just pass itout on the street corner, but
women need the opportunity tolearn trust, and women held in
suspicion will learn to distrusttheir own God-given intuition
(39:48):
and wisdom, which will in turnmake them more susceptible to
abuse and susceptible to falseteaching.
I read an author recentlysaying that because women are
nurturing and gentle, theyshouldn't be pastors because
they would be led astray byfalse teaching.
So you're not trusting women,which will keep them from
(40:11):
trusting themselves, so thatthey cannot trust that they're
understanding theology and youwill have a self-fulfilling
prophecy.
You are creating the womenyou're decrying by your very
words.
And again, I am not arguing inthis episode either way on
whether women should be pastorsor not.
Whether his claim on that is,I'm not even going there but
(40:35):
when you deny womentrustworthiness as part of their
essence that was ThomasSchreiner, by the way, who said
that.
He may have updated it andtaken that out of a more recent
copy of his work, which I do nothave, but the fact that it was
still published at all is anissue work which I do not have,
(40:57):
but the fact that it was stillpublished at all is an issue,
because you have these authorswho are creating, on purpose,
mistrust of women across theboard.
That does not please God.
This is a hill I will die on.
Elice Kilko (41:11):
Yes, for sure it's an important one.
Jessica Jenkins (41:15):
Yes, for sure.
It's an important one.
God delights in it when womenare trusted and we see Jesus
trust women.
Who was it that got to tellabout the resurrection?
It was the person who could nothold testimony in a court of
law because the men didn't trustwomen, but Jesus trusted.
(41:36):
Women didn't trust women, butJesus trusted women to carry the
best news that ever there wasthat Jesus is alive.
Jesus trusted women.
Paul trusted women to bring theletters where they needed to go
.
God trusted Deborah.
I mean, I could go on.
Yes, there are so many examples.
Elice Kilko (41:52):
I mean, I could go on.
Yes, there are so many examples, but we have to take that
seriously.
Jessica Jenkins (41:58):
God delights in it when women are trusted, and
that starts with us.
It's easy to be like okay,pastors, you need to start
trusting women.
Okay, what about us?
Are we willing to trust women?
Because we carry internalizedmisogyny as well.
Elice Kilko (42:17):
Yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (42:18):
We've absorbed those, those thoughts I know
I've I've struggled with.
Well, I'm not like those womenbecause I'm educated and have a
stronger personality, so ofcourse I'm able to understand,
but they're not.
You know, I I participate, I'vedrunk the water.
Elice Kilko (42:35):
Yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (42:36):
I've swallowed it into my lungs.
I'm trying to spew it back outand be like no, this is not
God's desire for women.
This is not what he loves.
Elice Kilko (42:48):
So what else do we need to know before we close
this subject about the woman ofvalor and her husband?
Close this subject about thewoman of valor and her?
Jessica Jenkins (42:55):
husband.
A community in which women canthrive, or anybody can thrive,
is a community built on trustand that goes across gender
lines, across racial lines,across socioeconomic lines.
God wants unity in his church.
Unity is what he delights inand he wants that for us across
(43:20):
all of the divides, and he wantsus to trust him above all else.
And though God rules all andsits with the angels in heaven,
he sees women's faith.
If you're a woman sitting therelistening, he sees your faith,
(43:41):
he sees your hard work, he seesyour desire to know him and he
honors that he loves us.
He likes how he created women,each woman individually with her
own strengths and passions.
In each woman individually withher own strengths and passions.
God wants to showcase what hehas done in you to the world.
(44:02):
God trusts you as you walk inthe spirit and let him guide you
.
He loves you and, as theProverbs 31, woman's husband
raises her and trusts her.
Your heavenly father will liftyou up and trust you and gift
(44:25):
you what you need to betrustworthy and praiseworthy and
full of fruits of the spiritand all the things, because he
delights in you as his child.
That's so good.
Thank you, elise, for beingwith us.
I cannot wait to talk about ournext episode, which will be
(44:46):
talking about the Proverbs 31woman's home.
We're going to get into thewhole homemaking thing next
episode.
I love it.
I'm so excited into the wholehomemaking thing next episode.
Elice Kilko (44:55):
So I love it.
Jessica Jenkins (44:55):
I'm so excited, awesome, all right.
Well, until then, may the Lordbless you and keep you.
May he make his face shine uponyou and give you peace.
Have a good day.
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