February 4, 2025 • 58 mins
The episode delves into the life of the Proverbs 31 woman, emphasizing her dual successes in textile production and vineyard management, showcasing the importance of women's creativity and labor in both domestic and economic spheres. By challenging traditional gender roles, the discussion highlights that God delights in women utilizing their passions, skills, and independence for the glory of their families and communities.
• Cultural teachings on women's roles in society
• The unique economic ventures of the Proverbs 31 woman
• Differences between her work and that of average women
• The skill and privilege involved in her business success
• Importance of social connections in her economic activities
• Further exploration of her vineyard business
•1 Challenges traditional notions of woman's roles in the household
• God’s encouragement for women to embrace their talents
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica LM Jenkins (00:01):
Welcome back to the we who Thirst podcast.
I am so glad that you are here.
One quick note before we getstarted.
I have been recovering frombeing sick, so my voice may
sound a little different today,but I thank you so much for
listening and bearing with me inthis process.
With me today is my good friend, elise Kilko.
(00:22):
She is a foreign worker,volunteer, mother and homemaker,
and today we are going to becontinuing our mini-series on
Proverbs 31 to discover how Goddelights in women.
Specifically, we will betalking about the Proverbs 31
woman, the woman of valor andher two separate businesses.
Now, Elise, many in our audiencehave been taught one of the
(00:44):
following, and let me know ifany of these teachings are ones
that you have heard or haveimpacted you personally.
Many have been told a womanshould not have a job outside
the home and that having thatkind of job would be sinful or
borderline sinful if shecouldn't verify a good enough
reason.
They may have been told a womancould have a side hustle as
(01:05):
long as it never took away fromher homemaking duties.
Anything she does that is nothomemaking related.
She can only do after herhomemaking has been adequately
completed.
Many have been taught thathomemaking for a woman was the
best, most holiest thing shecould do, that it is God's will
(01:26):
for her, and we've also beentold, in conjunction with all of
this, on the kind of theopposite side, that it's the
man's job to provide, not thewoman's.
Have any of these thingsimpacted you?
Elice Kilko (01:38):
Yes, absolutely.
I think I have heard all ofthose things as teachings, being
from the Bible which, as we getinto the text, we're going to
have to reevaluate each one ofthose, and I'm excited to do
that today.
I think the ones that Iprobably heard the most was that
homemaking is the best, holiestthing, Like you might do
(02:02):
something else, but if you'renot doing this, then there is
probably something wrong.
They wouldn't necessarily sayit's sinful, but they're like
this is the holiest, mostimportant thing and anything
else is less than um.
And then that it's the man'sjob to provide and the woman's
(02:24):
job to support, like I thinkwould be the dichotomy that I
was given.
Jessica LM Jenkins (02:30):
And that man's job to provide thing.
In every single complementarianbook I pick up and even
complementarian people I talk tothe man providing comes up
every single time and thesecould be like slightly softer
complementarians, these could belike the really hard
patriarchalist complementarians,Wherever they're at in the
(02:51):
spectrum.
The idea that it's the man'sjob to provide.
I think it's also a culturalnorm here in America that the
man has to be the provider.
So you're dealing with both acultural as well as a
theological norm.
But I think the episode todayis going to shake that up a
little bit.
I'm really excited to talk aboutthe verses in this passage that
(03:13):
talk about the woman of valor'sbusinesses, because they are
full of insight.
So I want to talk about kind ofeach of her businesses in turn.
We'll start with her homebecause I want to remind us that
in the ancient world the homewas the economic center, so
running her home was akin torunning a business.
(03:36):
Because of this, in the ancientworld there is no
differentiation between thewoman of valor's work inside the
home and her work outside thehome.
So whereas I'm using businessto describe her economic
endeavors, they would not haveconsidered them as businesses.
(03:58):
We consider the home andbusiness to be separate entities
.
In our culture, In the woman ofvalor's culture, they don't
consider those separatebusinesses.
So I just want to acknowledgeat the start of this episode
that I'm using our language todescribe something that they
didn't necessarily view that way, if that makes sense, Elise.
Elice Kilko (04:18):
Yes, that makes so much sense, and it's good that
you make that differentiation,because I think that that'll
help us understand the text alot better as we look back to
the historical context.
Jessica LM Jenkins (04:28):
So she has business ventures, but they're
also not like the stay-at-homemom's side hustle.
I see that, oh, she has a sidehustle like other stay-at-home
moms.
None of our economic structuresfit what is going on in the
text.
So I just want to start withthat, that we are dealing with
something that doesn't fit theway our economy works today.
(04:49):
But because today we wouldconsider these things separate,
I wanted to kind of discuss themseparately because there's also
a chronological order in hertackling these different
economic ventures or businesses.
Okay, so the first one is hertextile export business and this
(05:12):
is the one the text talks aboutthe most and we have the most
details.
So, elise, would you readProverbs 31, verse 13, 18, 19,
21, 22, and 24?
Elice Kilko (05:24):
All right, let's start with Proverbs 31, 13.
She selects wool and flax andworks with willing hands.
And then verses 18 and 19, shesees that her profits are good
and her lamp never goes out atnight.
She extends her hands to thespinning staff and her hands
hold the spindle.
(05:45):
And then 21 and 22,.
Right, she is not afraid forher household when it snows, for
all of her household are doublyclothed.
She makes her own bed coverings.
Her clothing is fine, linen andpurple, purple.
And then 24, she makes andsells linen garments and
(06:08):
delivers belts to the merchants.
And that is in CSB, perfect,thank you.
Yes, so you're calling this abusiness, but it wasn't like a
factory.
Weaving and making clothing,typical, normal women's work
(06:28):
Wasn't this like regular work?
So you're saying it's regularwork but it wasn't a factory.
Can you talk to us about that?
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:36):
Yes, Her weaving and making clothing here
isn't exactly the same as thenormal woman's work in the
ancient world.
There's overlap here becauseevery woman was weaving and
making clothes or things for herhouse.
Every woman in the ancientworld was engaged in this kind
of activity.
So we have to consider how doesthe woman of valor's activity
(06:59):
doing these things?
How is that different than theaverage woman's activity?
Why do I call this a businessand not what they are doing?
Elice Kilko (07:12):
So how does this differ, then, from the average
peasant woman's textile work?
Why is this a businessdifferent than what the average
Jane was doing?
Jessica LM Jenkins (07:23):
I mean, the biggest, most obvious difference
is that the woman of valor isselling her wares to merchants,
so that's going to create a bigdifference.
The average peasant woman isn'tmaking textiles to sell.
She is simply making enough toclothe her family and that is
all the time she that is all shehas time or resources to do.
She is scraping by to getanother tunic made for her
(07:48):
five-year-old because he keepsoutgrowing the last one, and
that is all she has bandwidthfor.
But the woman of valor ismaking an excess of textiles to
sell and then bring in income,whether coinage or goods, for
her family, and it even talksabout the kind of textiles.
(08:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, and the average womantypically would make very simple
garments from one type ofmaterial, often wool that was
usually grown by their ownflocks.
It's a very internalizedprocess.
So the husband and the kidswould take care of the sheep,
they would shear the sheep.
(08:33):
The women and the daughterswould then card the wool and
spin the wool and weave the woolinto clothes, and they're not
going outside to get this wool.
Usually they are raising thesheep, sheep to garment.
It's an internalized process totheir own household.
(08:53):
They're doing all of that.
They would do this inconjunction with other women in
their communities so they canall sit around weaving and
talking while they're doing this.
They would bring you know, youwould bring your wool and I
would bring my wool and we'd sittogether and spin.
But we get our wool from ourown sheep.
So it's an internalized processfor most peasant homes and they
(09:20):
may have had some access toflax to make linen, but that was
usually a higher levelcommodity and may not have been
as regularly available as wool.
Because wool you shear sheep ona regular schedule and as long
as your sheep is alive, it'sgoing to be producing wool
Whereas linen.
You have to have the rightground.
You have to have water, youhave to have all of these things
(09:41):
flax to grow, and so it's alittle more difficult to get a
hold of than wool.
Elice Kilko (09:49):
That makes sense.
So why is this a business andwhat do we see here?
Jessica LM Jenkins (09:57):
What we see going on with a woman of valor
in her business differs from thepeasant woman, because whereas
the peasant woman is gettingwool from her own sheep to make
clothes from her family, thewoman of valor is purchasing the
raw materials for her textilebusiness.
She's not growing the flaxherself and she's not shearing
(10:19):
the sheep herself, or herhusband isn't shearing the sheep
.
The word select in the NIV, inverse 13, indicates to seek out
or ask information about, so sheis having to find sources for
the raw materials for thisbusiness.
So that already sets adifferent economic kind of
(10:43):
presence that what she's doinghas.
She's not using what her familyhas readily available because
they produced it themselves.
She's sourcing the raw goods oftwo different types, both wool
and flax.
Okay, she is doing the spinningand the weaving in-house.
(11:05):
That's important and we'll comeback to that later on.
She's doing the spinning andthe weaving in-house.
That's important and we'll comeback to that later on.
She's doing the spinning andthe weaving.
But what the woman of valor iscreating is not simple like
homespun garments for her family, though her family does wear
some of what she makes.
She is creating luxury goods,um, and the text is very clear
that these are luxury goodsshe's creating, not your average
(11:29):
wear.
She is dealing in dyed fabrics,whether she's dyeing in-house or
buying wool that is dyed.
Linen does not carry dye wellat all.
That's why it's normally white.
So she would be dealing inwhite linen.
But she could be buying dyedwool already.
She could be sending the woolshe purchased out to have dyed.
(11:51):
She could be dyeing it in-house.
We don't know how she's workingthe dyeing process, but she's
dealing in dyed fabrics which alot of peasants may not have
time for dyeing.
Sometimes they would use plantsor other things to dye.
Sometimes they're just usingundyed wool because they got to
get this done.
So she's dealing in dyedfabrics and she's dealing in
very finely woven and fancylinens not a rougher, homespun
(12:16):
woolen clothing, but very, veryfine, intricate sorts of
garments and textiles.
Elice Kilko (12:24):
The reference to her family being clothed in
purple, then would be showingthat it's luxury, because that
was a hard color to dye right.
Jessica LM Jenkins (12:37):
Yes, yeah.
So in verse 21, when it talksabout her family being clothed
in scarlet.
That word in Hebrew is ofuncertain origin.
It is also similar to theHebrew word for two, so some
people think it's the word forlike red scarlet clothes.
The other people think it's theword for like double clothed,
(12:58):
like they have two outfits orthey have extra clothes going on
, because your average person inthe ancient world only has one
change of clothes.
I have a closet full of 15 to20 outfits and that's normal in
our consumeristic society.
But back then you had onechange of clothes, maybe two if
you were doing well, three ifyou're really rich.
Elice Kilko (13:30):
The fact that her family is in dyed garments, or
they have extra clothes isshowcasing the wealth that she's
able to create from herhandiwork.
Jessica LM Jenkins (13:33):
That's interesting.
She's also creating a widevariety of projects and every
woman who needs to makedifferent things for her family,
like towels and bed linens andtunics and mantles.
But the woman of valor iscreating extra mantles in verse
21.
She's creating bed coverings in22.
She's creating linen clothing,so you're dealing with both wool
(13:55):
and linen.
She's dealing with sashes andthe linen clothing and the
sashes are part of what she'sselling to the merchants.
Elice Kilko (14:03):
Okay.
Jessica LM Jenkins (14:05):
So, whereas a peasant woman would need to
make many of these end products,the quality of the peasant
woman's work wouldn't have beenthe same as the woman of valor.
So this business ismultifaceted, dealing with
multiple mediums for her endproducts, and it's dealing with
(14:26):
luxury goods.
Elice Kilko (14:28):
So what would be needed for the woman of valor to
run a business like this?
What entails?
Jessica LM Jenkins (14:39):
what all does that entail?
It would include she needs alot of social connections.
She needs connections with theproducers of raw materials.
She needs connections with themerchants, potentially with
people who die.
There is no Etsy or Amazon forher to just like throw I made a
scarf.
Who wants to buy?
There's none of that Like.
She has to have serious socialconnections to make this happen.
And some of the words formerchants in these texts are
(14:59):
talking about internationalmerchants.
They're not the guy from onevillage over who comes over to
your village to sell his pots orwhatever.
You're talking about wanderingtraders who are going from place
to place or even, potentially,ships that are coming into port.
(15:21):
And so she has some seriousconnections with international
merchants that she is workingwith to export her luxury
textiles.
The other things that areneeded to run this sort of
business that she is doing thatthe text reveals to us is a lot
of wealth, skill and some help.
(15:42):
You have to have privilege todo what she is doing.
This is not something theaverage peasant woman could
accomplish.
Elice Kilko (15:50):
Yeah, she would have to be important enough to
be able to talk to the rightpeople to get the sort of trade
to be, done.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:59):
Yeah, that's interesting and I really want
to mention the wealth and theskill together because of
everything that goes intocreating fine linens or woolen
garments.
Elise, do you do any sort oflike needlework, crochet,
knitting, any of that?
Elice Kilko (16:17):
I do not have the patience for it, but I deeply
appreciate it, so I don't do itmyself.
I've tried to learn differentthings.
I could maybe do some crossstitch if it were like about,
you know, two by two inches.
Jessica LM Jenkins (16:32):
Well, in the world of crocheting, knitting,
all of that and I'm going to tryto make it as simple as
possible because I'm sure wehave some listeners who are have
no idea there's different yarnweights.
If you were to go to a storeand, let's say, your friend's
crocheting, they're like, go buyme yarn.
There's different yarn weightsand these weights have names
which can get really confusing.
I'm going to go with thenumbers and so you have a number
(16:55):
one yarn which is really thinand tiny, and then you have a
number six yarn which is muchthicker and fatter and chunkier.
So if I'm making a throwblanket that is 40 inches by 60
inches, if I'm using number oneyarn which is really thin, it's
going to take me five times aslong to make that throw blanket
(17:19):
as if I'm using the number sixyarn which is really thick,
Because the thicker yarn worksup a lot faster.
I mean, this kind of just makessense.
It's bigger.
Elice Kilko (17:28):
So it's good.
Jessica LM Jenkins (17:29):
Yeah.
So when we're thinking about thewoman of valor making fine
fabrics, she is creating thethread or the yarn for these
fabrics herself, in-house.
She is participating in thislabor In order to take the raw
(17:50):
wool or flax and twist it into avery fine string piece of yarn.
That takes some serious skilland it takes time because you
have to make a lot of it andthen the time to weave that fine
yarn into a fine fabric isgoing to take much longer than
the time the average peasantwoman might take on a regular
(18:14):
homespun garment.
So this is showcasing the factthat she has the skill to create
that fine of a product.
That is serious talent andskill that she has and that
she's training others in herhousehold to do.
But also she has enough wealththat she can take the time to
(18:37):
create that kind of product,because she's not needing to get
this done right now so that Ican go help with the harvest
done right now so that I can gohelp with the harvest.
She has the time to spendexcesses amount of time on
making very, very fine clothing.
So the fact that she has wealthand skill allows her to run
(18:58):
this business that those in thatculture without the same level
of privilege she has could notaccomplish.
Elice Kilko (19:07):
That's so interesting, that's a really
interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (19:11):
Because, as we think about the saying, time
is money.
Time was always of the essencefor the peasant family who's
dealing in a sustenanceagricultural context.
They are simply trying topreserve food, get winter
clothing made so they do notfreeze.
They're trying to make surethey can survive.
(19:32):
They're not sitting aroundseeing how teeny tiny they can
spin this linen.
Can I get it smaller?
Let's see if I can get itsmaller.
They don't have time for thatnonsense and it's not nonsense,
but they just they don't havetime, they have to get it done
nonsense.
Elice Kilko (19:48):
And it's not nonsense, but they just they
don't have time.
They have to get it done, thetime that the woman of valor
would have invested in herbusiness alone shows her
privilege.
Jessica LM Jenkins (19:58):
Exactly yeah , Because your peasant woman may
have the same level of skill,but if she doesn't have the time
to invest in it because herfamily needs her to help with
the harvest and her family needsthat winter wrapped in two
weeks because winter is comingum, she doesn't have the time to
invest in creating a dyed,finely woven purple bedspread.
(20:23):
They need something warm andthey need it now and we're doing
it.
So the time and the fact thatthe woman of valor has help to
do this, that can cut down onsome of the time.
But in a peasant householdeverybody's going to be working
together, but on similarprojects for, again, survival.
(20:46):
You don't have several peoplein a wealthy environment who can
all spend their day working ona fine linen bedspread.
In a peasant home you havepeople who are working on
getting this coat done becausewinter is coming, and so the
privilege of time and skill andhelp really come to play with
her business here.
Elice Kilko (21:08):
That's so interesting.
What else would she have neededto run a business like this?
Jessica LM Jenkins (21:13):
She would have needed business savvy.
She has to not only be skilledin creating these luxury
textiles, she needs to haveenough business savvy to deal
with the merchants to haggle, tomaintain those relationships
with throughout the hagglingprocess, to get the good deals
on the raw materials to sell herwares at a price that they are
(21:38):
worth.
So she needs business savvy.
She's smart, she knows how todo this, she can run the
finances, she can deal with thecomplex social relationships
needed.
She has to have access and herhusband, potentially being a
king or very high nobility,could have given her a lot of
this access.
And she also just needed asuperior product, because why
(22:00):
should they take your sashes toanother country?
Why not Fred's down the street?
So there's all of those thingsthat go into this business.
Elice Kilko (22:11):
What other things would you say are significant,
then, about her textile business?
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:16):
I think one thing that this passage shows
that I really love and it's backin verse 13,.
It says she selects wool andflax and she works with eager
hands.
Her poems work with delight ishow you could translate the
Hebrew there.
She is excited about this work,she is passionate about this
(22:40):
work and she's hands on in theprocess.
Elice Kilko (22:45):
That's so cool.
It shows that she really lovedwhat she was doing, or she was
at least interested in it.
Yeah, yeah.
So how do we know that this isa passion of hers?
How would you prove that fromthe text?
Jessica LM Jenkins (23:04):
That's a really good question, because
I've heard this verse used a lot, especially when it's Proverbs
31 is taught as a checklist andit's used to say oh, look, the
Proverbs 31 woman chooses to beexcited about her homemaking.
She's choosing a good attitude.
Since she works with eagerhands, you should work with
(23:27):
eager hands.
Attitude Since she works witheager hands, you should work
with eager hands.
And can we make good choices tobe excited about whatever work
God hands us?
Absolutely.
But one of the ways we knowthis is a passion of hers and
not just as she chooses a goodattitude about mundane things,
is that doing this work isbeneath her station.
Elice Kilko (23:51):
That's really interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (23:52):
She doesn't have to do this.
She is the matriarch of a verywealthy household.
She has servants for this.
She doesn't have to, she wantsto, she is passionate about it.
She likes this.
We also can tell because theydevoted like five or six verses
(24:15):
to talking about her business.
Six verses are talking abouther textile endeavors and yes,
that is kind of women's work,but, as we've talked, she's not
doing what the average womandoes.
She has made this intosomething truly spectacular and
she's following her passions.
It is something that excitesher.
Her palms work with delight.
(24:37):
She participates in the labor,even though it's beneath her
stations.
She could be doing other things, but she chooses to do this.
Elice Kilko (24:48):
That's so cool.
I love that note.
Jessica LM Jenkins (24:52):
Yeah, she's choosing to focus on what she's
good at, because we talked aboutskill.
She's good at this, and she'schoosing to focus on what she's
good at and what she'spassionate about, where she has
talent.
There's lots of householdactivities in the ancient world
that this passage doesn'tdescribe her being involved with
at all, but that which she isskilled enough and passionate
(25:15):
enough to be very successful at,that is what Proverbs 31
focuses on.
Elice Kilko (25:24):
Yeah, I don't think it talks about food.
It doesn't talk about her likemaking food or drying water.
Jessica LM Jenkins (25:30):
No, it doesn't, I mean.
It says she brings in her breadand she provides portions for
her family.
So she brings her food fromafar.
So she's like queen of takeout,because the average peasant
woman not only is spinning andweaving, she's also grinding
(25:50):
grain for two to four hours aday, which is crazy the Hebrew
word for bread which is the mainthing that the peasant woman is
creating at home every day.
The woman of valor outsourcesthat labor.
(26:11):
She gets it from somewhere else, she brings her bread in from
afar, she gives portions to hermaidservants and that's not the
picture of her necessarilystanding over the stove like
here's your soup, yeah, yeah,yeah, this is more of the.
The storeroom manager, um,rationing out the large
(26:34):
storeroom that works for thehouse, um that's certainly
different.
It could even be like you needto go grind grain for bread, you
need to deal with the fattedcalf.
You you know it could beassigning these maidens parts of
the food preparation, but wenever see the woman of valor
(26:54):
actually hands-on doing foodpreparation anywhere.
Elice Kilko (27:01):
In Proverbs that's such an interesting contrast.
I mean, as far as how it talksabout her weaving, I mean it
definitely shows that it's apassion which is really cool.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Sometimes it seems like thestay at home trad wife culture
teaches that the woman has to begood and passionate about
(27:21):
everything.
Have you ever felt like that?
What did that, what?
How did that go down in yourgrowing up years and as an adult
.
Jessica LM Jenkins (27:32):
Definitely like, especially when you're
taught you God, especially whenyou come from circles where
you're taught God created you asa woman to be a stay at home
mom and you're supposed to do itwith eager hands.
So if you don't like it, youbetter start liking it, you
better get passionate about it.
And authors like Rebecca Merkelin her book Even Exile she goes
(27:58):
on and on about how you have tofind something in homemaking
that you're passionate about ifyou want to honor God.
That could be baking, it couldbe sewing clothes for your kids,
it could be creating elaboratemeals, it could be decorating.
But you have to find somethinghomemaking involved, not side
(28:19):
hustle, not business, not career.
You have to find somethingtraditional homemaking to become
passionate about, even ifyou're not passionate about
everything you house, andteaching us how to be hospitable
.
Elice Kilko (28:35):
And teaching us how to cook, not really my mom, but
but just like I don't remembergrowing up under the pressure of
(29:11):
you have to be good ateverything, but I definitely saw
this like this poison beingtaught when I went to college
and was kind of in thefundamentalist adjacent things.
As in like, growing up, therewere two of us girls that loved
being in the kitchen more andthere were two of us girls that
(29:33):
liked cleaning more, and so likeon Saturdays, when we had the
weekends, my sister and I wouldwork more on the kitchen and my
other two sisters would workmore on the cleaning.
So we were allowed to know dowhat we did best.
And that's not to say that wewere never taught to like switch
, you know, but we were allowedto to choose our passions, you
(29:56):
know.
So, yeah, that's interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (29:59):
And when I went to seminary because Dorothy
Patterson was the president'swife during the time I was at
Southwestern Baptist TheologicalSeminary she had a huge
homemaking push because she feltthat Dorothy Patterson
especially if you listen toother episodes I've read quotes
from her but she believes awoman is in sin if she's not
being a homemaker and shebelieved that women are often
(30:22):
not trained to be homemakers.
So she was trying to get thishomemaking education into the
seminary and they even had whatthey called the Horner
Homemaking House with a giantkitchen and women could go to
learn to do all of the domestichomemaking things there and
there was this huge push thatthis is a woman's calling from
God to do all this homemakingstuff, which felt really weird
(30:46):
because I'm like I'm here tolearn Hebrew and Greek, I'm not
here to learn how to bake a pie.
My womanhood class in collegetold me I had to bake a pie.
I've already been here, donethat.
Elice Kilko (30:57):
And that's not to say that there isn't worth in
learning how to do all thosethings.
Oh, I'm glad I know how to dothem.
Jessica LM Jenkins (31:04):
But there's a difference in being taught how
to do a skill and being told itis God's will for your life
that you have to know theseskills.
Elice Kilko (31:13):
Yes, that is a very big difference.
Jessica LM Jenkins (31:15):
Like, homemaking skills are good for
every single human to know.
Yes, everyone should know howto sew on a button and make
basic food, but to be told it isGod's will for your life
because you have certaininternal organs, that's where
things get really shame-inducing, especially for women who their
(31:37):
passions and what they're goodat lie outside the frame of the
normal activities.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Homemaking culture focuses verymuch on cooking, cleaning and
(31:58):
child care.
Those are kind of the three bigC's that my experience of
homemaking culture reallyemphasize, would you say those
are probably three of the mainareas complementarian homemaking
culture emphasizes.
I would agree with that.
I would agree with that.
And what I find fascinatingabout Proverbs 31 is you never
(32:18):
see her in this passage do anyof those.
We never see her cook herself,we never see her clean anything
and we don't see her do a lickof childcare.
In the entire passage, thethree big Cs that evangelical
complementarian homemakingculture emphasizes to the nth
degree, to the point thatseminaries are putting in entire
(32:40):
buildings to teach women to dothese things, and then they hold
up Proverbs 31 as a standardfor homemaking.
She doesn't actually do any ofthose things in that passage.
What she does do is focus onher passions and make
significant money by making itreally finely crafted and well
(33:04):
done.
Elice Kilko (33:06):
That's so interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (33:07):
Finally crafted and well done.
That's so interesting.
No-transcript, even though thatmeans she isn't doing other
(33:33):
sorts of labor for her family.
We don't see her doing cleaningor cooking.
Is she running her householdand making sure everybody has
what they need?
Absolutely, but we don't seeher doing it.
And when you come out of thecomplementarian culture where
you, as the stay-at-home mom,have to do it all, because God
created you to do all thecleaning, do all the cooking, do
(33:53):
all the things, the Proverbs 31woman gets takeout.
The Proverbs 31 womanoutsources the cooking.
The Proverbs 31 woman focuseson her skills and her passions
for the benefit of her family.
She's not ignoring them or notministering to them, but she
(34:14):
doesn't have to do everything.
Elice Kilko (34:18):
And that's such an important note to note that you
know to take that to ourday-to-day, we don't have to be
good at everything.
We can be passable on someareas and be really great in
others.
Should we be taking good careof our homes?
Yes, absolutely, but we don'thave to be excellent in every
(34:41):
single area.
Jessica LM Jenkins (34:43):
And it's not all on us.
The three C's in scripture arenever just the woman's job.
Every human in our household,if they're old enough, every
adult in our household, let mejust say it that way every adult
in our household is responsiblefor the three Cs cooking,
cleaning, child care.
We may negotiate with theadults in our household that one
(35:06):
person does more of this, oneperson does more of that because
of skill, time, et cetera.
But everyone is responsible toknow these things and to help
out.
It's not just woman's labor.
Because the woman of valor wasso skillful and was so
successful at making money withher passions, she's better able
(35:29):
to increase her businessventures.
Elise, would you read verse 18for us?
Elice Kilko (35:38):
Yes, Verse 18 says she sees that her profits are
good and her lamp never goes outat night.
Jessica LM Jenkins (35:48):
Actually, let me back up.
I want to lead into thatdifferently.
So we see that the Proverbs 31woman has been extremely
successful in her export textilebusiness.
Elise, will you read verse 18for us?
Elice Kilko (36:04):
Proverbs 31, verse 18, says she sees that her
profits are good and her lampnever goes out at night.
Jessica LM Jenkins (36:12):
Now Elise, the second half of this verse.
Her lamp does not go out atnight.
What have you heard?
This means?
Elice Kilko (36:19):
um, I always heard it, um, when, this verse, when,
when we read this verse and likewe're trying to figure out what
it means, a lot of times peoplewould bring up the parable of
the 10 virgins, um, waiting forthe bridegroom, with some of
them had oil, some of themdidn't, and how it was, did they
(36:43):
squander their oil or did they,you know, have enough?
So that was always kind oftalked about it in conjunction.
So it was.
It wasn't always necessarilysaid that like she was rich and
you can see, because her lampwent out the whole night, but it
(37:04):
was more like maybe a planningthing, like she planned well,
she planned ahead.
Yeah, she planned ahead.
Jessica LM Jenkins (37:12):
Yeah, I've usually heard this verse and
when I was doing research I sawthis in blogs as well.
People take this verse that herlamp does not go out at night
and that she rises early to giveportions to her maidens.
They take those verses as thiswoman works all the time.
She's up late working dangerous, and we're going to do a whole
(37:39):
episode on her resting, so I'mnot going to camp out here long.
But typically these verses areinterpreted as she works all the
time.
She gets up early and she'sworking.
She's up working late at night.
Elice Kilko (37:46):
She stays up late.
Jessica LM Jenkins (37:47):
Yeah, but when you look at verse 18 and
you take into consideration theHebraic parallelism that's going
on in the Hebrew poetry, itsays that she sees that her
trading is profitable.
The point of the first half ofthe verse is the profit from her
trading.
And then her lamp does not goout at night.
There are ancient Proverbs thatonly a poor person's lamp goes
(38:08):
out at night.
Oh, interesting.
So this is, yes, planning,because light is in a woman's
domain.
She has control of light forthe household.
But it also is a it is acultural way of saying she, she
can pay for the enough he'sproduced, enough to make sure
(38:28):
her lamps don't go out.
Y'all's lamps might go outbecause you're poor.
Her lamp does not because she'srich.
Um, the lamps at night are asign of wealth.
Sleeping in darkness is a signthat you're poor.
Elice Kilko (38:42):
Why would they burn lamps at night?
Jessica LM Jenkins (38:45):
in historical context, yeah, I get
this question all the timebecause we turn off all our
lights at night.
We want to sleep in the dark,but we are also not
superstitious people like theancient people were.
They were afraid of spirits andthings that go bump in the
night.
So they would often light lampsas a safety precaution against
(39:05):
those sorts of things.
And it also helps.
You can see if you need to getup with a child because you
can't just flip on a lightswitch.
But I think the big reason wasto protect the family from
spirits or beings they believedcould be around to hurt people
in the dark at nighttime.
So that's part of thesignificance she's able to
(39:28):
protect her family because shehas made money to keep lamps
burning and she's able to planahead how much oil is needed and
manage this aspect well.
Elice Kilko (39:39):
Okay, that's so interesting.
Now you said that there weretwo businesses mentioned here,
what is the second?
Jessica LM Jenkins (39:49):
one.
The second one the text doesnot spend nearly as much time on
, but there's a lot in this onelittle verse, in the context
that we don't necessarily thinkthrough.
So, elise, her second businessis a vineyard and winery.
So, elise, would you read verse16?
Elice Kilko (40:07):
Okay, it says she evaluates a field and buys it.
She plants a vineyard with herearning.
Jessica LM Jenkins (40:16):
So once again we see that the woman of
valor is doing things outsidethe usual scope of her gender,
and if you want to hear moreabout her acting outside the
usual scope of her gender, goread the full discussion or
listen to the full.
You can either read thetranscript or listen to full
episode of episode seven of mypodcast, where we talk about
(40:37):
that in detail.
But we see her here.
She is buying land and creatinga new business and again her
husband, who's at the city gates, is likely leveraging his
position to help her with herbusiness goals.
Some people argue and I justsaw this comment on a reel,
(40:59):
somebody else's reel, yesterdayPeople immediately look at this
verse and argue that womencouldn't own land in the Old
Testament.
So therefore she must be just.
Her husband must have boughtthe land.
She didn't really buy it, itwas somebody else and they
denigrate this for her.
But, Elise, who else do youremember in the Old Testament
that owned land?
Elice Kilko (41:21):
Well, rahab owned a house.
Naomi was getting her land backwhen Boaz married Ruth and then
the daughters of Zelopha hadinherited their land from their
father.
They went to Moses and spoke.
(41:41):
Since they had no brothers,they asked for their own
inheritance.
Did I get the ones you werethinking of?
Jessica LM Jenkins (41:47):
Yes, and so, though it's not normal for
women to own land, in the OldTestament it does happen.
So her owning land is notoutside the realm of possibility
.
Especially when you're dealingwith, potentially, a very
privileged, aristocratic womanor a queen, normal rules don't
always apply to them.
(42:07):
It's also possible thatProverbs 31 could have been a
later addition to the book ofProverbs.
During the Persian age, afterthe return, and during the
Persian age, women owning landand businesses was a lot more
common than previously, untilthe Greeks took over, but that's
(42:28):
a discussion for another time.
Oh the Greeks, oh the GreeksRuining women constantly.
Weeks Ruining women constantly.
So there's a lot in verse 16that the original hearer of this
verse would understand what'shappening, but we miss Elise.
What are some of the things youcan think of from other
passages of scriptures that gointo having or creating a
(42:50):
vineyard?
Elice Kilko (42:52):
So you have to have the vines, and in a lot of
passages it talks about having awall around the vineyard to
protect it.
I don't know what else Land Imean you have to have the land.
You have to have the vine.
Jessica LM Jenkins (43:11):
Here there's walls.
Almost every passage that talksabout vineyards talks about
walls, especially in the NewTestament.
Sometimes there's towers.
You have to have trellises forthe grapevines.
I don't know what they werealways made of.
Now they're made out of wood,which was kind of expensive back
then.
Now wood's much cheaper, butback then wood was much more
(43:32):
expensive.
You have to have again theseeds for the vines.
You have to have time to waitfor the grape vines to develop
and you have to have access to awine press.
So she buys a field.
This could be a terraced fieldthat was previously used for a
(43:53):
different sort of crop.
It could just be a plain pieceof ground.
We're not sure what kind offield it is that she's buying.
The Hebrew word here is verygeneral.
It could be like the plains wayout there, or it could be like
wheat field, we don't know.
But she buys some land and soin order to make plant a
(44:14):
vineyard she has to likely get awall built, perhaps a tower and
trellises for the vines to growon.
Elice Kilko (44:20):
So this is a lot of labor.
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:26):
Is she doing this labor or is she hiring it
out?
What do we think?
Elice Kilko (44:30):
I'm guessing she's not the one rolling up her
sleeves and doing it as a queen.
She's definitely not the onerolling up her sleeves and doing
it as a queen.
She's definitely not the onedoing it.
I think she's probably in amanagerial role, making sure
things are getting done.
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:43):
Yes, I would agree, especially since she's
passionate about her textilebusiness.
I can't imagine her if they'regoing on simultaneously, which
they may not be, but I imagineif they were going on
simultaneously she's going towant to spend the bulk of her
time there.
So she's much more in amanagerial role of this vineyard
which brings up.
(45:07):
So who is her hired labor?
Which means it's likely peasantmen in the community that she's
hiring to do all of thesethings for her, which gets
really interesting when youthink about how hard
complementarians say womenshouldn't ever be the boss of
(45:28):
men.
Elice Kilko (45:31):
Yippee.
Jessica LM Jenkins (45:34):
So, like John Piper, has specific
guidelines that a woman shouldnever be these are his words
never be personally directivetowards a man, like giving them
driving directions.
A woman could be non-personallydirective, meaning she wrote a
book that the man read, or shewrote the map that the man needs
(45:56):
to find his directions, ormaybe she's the one, the city
planner, who made all thestreets so he can only drive on
the street, so she's kind ofdirecting him because that's
where the street is, but that'snon-personal because she's not
like face to face with him.
So a woman who's face to facewith a man cannot tell him what
to do.
Her john piper and hardcomplementarians of his ilk.
Elice Kilko (46:19):
There's absolutely no way the woman of valor is
following this rule by JohnPiper.
There just is not.
Jessica LM Jenkins (46:29):
She didn't hear his sermon on this, did she
?
She didn't.
She didn't get the memo?
No, no, she is.
I doubt she's being the foremanfor the work crew, but she is
at least giving directions tothe foreman or the contractor,
like here's where I want thewall, here's what you need to do
, um, and she's financing it.
So she has a directive role inthis way at the very least it's
(46:56):
a conversation.
Elice Kilko (46:56):
At the very, I bought this land.
At the very least it's aconversation.
I bought this land.
Where's the best place for thewall?
At the very least it's aconversation, yes.
Jessica LM Jenkins (47:05):
Yes, and then, because it's a vineyard,
she needs to use her socialskills to negotiate time at the
community wine press.
Or it doesn't say this, butpotentially, as a queen, I could
see her building a wine pressfor her community, which is then
benefiting the entire community, not just herself.
(47:25):
So she's providing jobs for hercommunity.
She's potentially providingresources.
This wine she might be sellingback to her community or selling
to merchants.
We don't know the end result ofthis vineyard, but this could
be a big payoff for hercommunity at large.
Elice Kilko (47:44):
That's so interesting?
Yeah, because a lot of villagesin Israel, archaeologically
from this time period, had botha wine press and a milling
threshing floor for communityuse.
Jessica LM Jenkins (48:04):
They generally had one for the
village or the community thatwas shared and typically the men
were in charge of figuring outwho got to use the threshing
floor, the wine press, like,which family got to use it first
and all of that.
So now she's the one managing avineyard.
She's again stepping into thesekind of masculine spaces to
(48:27):
figure out how the produce fromher vineyard or she's hiring a
man to do that for her, butshe's still kind of stepping
into these sorts of areas thatwere typically male run.
Elice Kilko (48:38):
So let's clear things up.
Is the Proverbs 31 womansupposed to be a stay-at-home
mom, or should she be workingoutside the home according to
Proverbs 31?
What is the woman of valorsupposed to be doing?
Jessica LM Jenkins (48:52):
Actually, this passage isn't indicating
either way.
Actually, this passage isn'tindicating either way.
(49:14):
Firstly, a woman should do, orwhere she should be performing,
the tasks.
This passage is showcasing howone woman, or a type of woman,
brought honor to her family andGod through hard work and
creativity in her particularculture.
That's so good so it's anexample of hey, a typological
(49:39):
woman or a real woman back inthe Old Testament used her
creativity in this way, and Goddelights in women who use their
creativity to benefit theirfamilies and communities and
follow their passions, which hegave them, and their skills,
which God gave them.
God likes this.
(49:59):
This is the type of music thatis to be praised.
God likes it when women usetheir passions and their skills
to benefit their families andcommunities, even when they
don't do all the other mundanework.
Elice Kilko (50:14):
That's so important .
All the other mundane workthat's so important, jessica,
it's my favorite time.
Jessica LM Jenkins (50:28):
What can we learn about God's heart for
women from this passage?
God delights in strong,creative women.
God delights when women workhard for the good of herself,
her family and her community.
God delights when women followtheir passions, even when that
(50:48):
means they outsource orreconfigure normal household
dynamics in a way that helps herfamily thrive.
The Proverbs 31 woman's doingall sorts of things that are not
normal in that culture and Godsays that's cool.
Look at her.
She's super creative.
She figured out how to makethis export textile business by
(51:12):
buying bread for her familyrather than grinding, because
she's not spending time grindinggrain so she can spend time
making really, really, reallyfine linen.
She made a trade-off there.
That's cool.
Look at her being smart.
I like that.
God gets excited about womenusing their wisdom and
(51:32):
intelligence to find creativeways to bless their family while
following the passions andskills that he gave them.
Elice Kilko (51:42):
It's not the case where.
Jessica LM Jenkins (51:43):
God's like.
I desire all women to behomemakers, and if you are not
passionate and skilled in thatarea, you just better buck up to
choose to like it and learn theskills.
God's okay.
Saying okay, I mean we all needto be investing in our homes
men, women, children.
That's beside the point, that'sjust basics.
But if you're not passionateabout being a stay-at-home mom,
(52:07):
but you're passionate aboutspeech therapy, go be a speech
therapist and love on littlebabies who need to learn how to
talk, or stroke victims orwhoever.
What you're passionate about.
God delights in women,following the passions and
skills he gave them to benefittheir families and communities
in creative, novel ways.
Elice Kilko (52:28):
Yeah, the division of labor that you see in
Proverbs 31 between her and herhusband, for the historical
context is very different thanthe norm from that time, which
gives us freedom, then, in ourtime, to reevaluate the division
of labor between spouses inthis day and age, to say you
(52:49):
know who does each task best,and it might be a forever thing,
or it might be a season of lifething, which is really
interesting too.
What else can we learn aboutGod's heart for women from this
passage?
Jessica LM Jenkins (53:02):
God is not afraid of women making money.
Amen.
God is not looking for women tobe financially dependent upon a
man.
The man does not have to be thesole provider for the family.
Her husband probably was doingsome sort of economic work on
(53:24):
his own passage, isn't talkingabout him, but she's doing quite
well for herself and her family.
Her husband's not giving herthe wool and the flax from his
shepherding endeavors.
Of course he's probably a lordor a king, not a shepherd, but
neither of them are what wewould consider traditional
(53:44):
breadwinner for the family.
Provision was everybody's jobYoung, old, male, female
(54:07):
everybody in the ancient economyis responsible for provision.
So God is not looking for womento be financially dependent
upon men.
A woman making money God iscool with that, he likes that.
And God is not looking forwomen to be financially
dependent upon men.
A woman making money God iscool with that, he likes that.
And God is not worried aboutwomen being appropriately
directive to men.
She had the means, the job, thenecessity to be directive to
(54:30):
the men helping her with thevineyard.
I heard one hard complementarianblogger.
I read her article on this.
I think it was the TransformedWife and she was like it must
have been teenage girls who arehelping her make the vineyard,
because it couldn't have beenadult women because they would
(54:51):
have been being keepers of thehome, like the Proverbs 31 woman
, and it couldn't have been menbecause she couldn't be the boss
of men.
So she probably had teenagegirls helping her with the
vineyard.
But what do you think?
Probably not, probably, not.
No.
What do you think about who'sdoing the manual labor of making
walls?
No, that's teenage girls arenot.
(55:13):
Who's making walls in theancient world?
That is what the men in thatculture did, is they made
terraced fields and walls forvineyard.
So God is not worried aboutwomen being appropriately
directive to men.
If God was truly worried aboutwomen being appropriately
feminine by not being directiveto men, he wouldn't have praised
(55:34):
Deborah JL, the woman of valor,and Mary Magdalene in the Bible
.
Elice Kilko (55:40):
That's such an important note.
Those were all very strongwomen.
Jessica LM Jenkins (55:46):
We can talk later about the husband-wife
submission passages in the NewTestament and I think we'll do a
podcast on that at some point.
But when we look at how OldTestament family structures work
, the Old Testament familystructures work.
The Old Testament familystructures do not match
complementarian family hierarchyideals and I think that if God
really wanted complementarianstyle hierarchy to be central to
(56:11):
the godly family, he would haveput some of those hierarchical
commands in the Old Testament,not just the New Testament,
which was written under themisogynistic Greco-Roman
philosophical system.
And we're back to those Greeksagain, again.
Instead we have the Proverbs 31woman who is constantly walking
(56:33):
in male spaces doing typicallymasculine activities, being
directive towards men andearning significant amount of
money doing things that were notyour typical day-to-day for
women, mostly because she hadthe privilege, wealth and means
to not have to do the typicalday-to-day things for women.
That's really good.
(56:55):
So the big thing I would justlove our audience to take away
from this episode is that goddelights in women being who he
created them to be.
And, yes, sometimes that meanswe sacrifice for our families
and we do something that's not.
We do a job that we don't love.
We do activities we don't likethe most for the good of our
(57:17):
families and communities.
That happens, but as we areable, god also delights in women
following the skills he gavethem and the passions he gave
them to do life in creative waysto bless their families and
communities, even when itdoesn't look like the norm.
I love that God likes that.
(57:37):
That's so encouraging andthat's what I want to leave all
of you listeners with.
Whether you're male or female,god delights in his people using
the wisdom, passions and skillshe gives us to find creative
ways to do life and bless otherpeople.
Thank you so much, elise, foryour time.
(57:57):
Thank you all for tuning in andlistening.
May the Lord bless you and keepyou.
May his face shine upon you andgive you peace.
Have a great day.
Welcome back to the we who Thirst podcast.
I am so glad that you are here.
One quick note before we getstarted.
I have been recovering frombeing sick, so my voice may
sound a little different today,but I thank you so much for
listening and bearing with me inthis process.
With me today is my good friend, elise Kilko.
(00:22):
She is a foreign worker,volunteer, mother and homemaker,
and today we are going to becontinuing our mini-series on
Proverbs 31 to discover how Goddelights in women.
Specifically, we will betalking about the Proverbs 31
woman, the woman of valor andher two separate businesses.
Now, Elise, many in our audiencehave been taught one of the
(00:44):
following, and let me know ifany of these teachings are ones
that you have heard or haveimpacted you personally.
Many have been told a womanshould not have a job outside
the home and that having thatkind of job would be sinful or
borderline sinful if shecouldn't verify a good enough
reason.
They may have been told a womancould have a side hustle as
(01:05):
long as it never took away fromher homemaking duties.
Anything she does that is nothomemaking related.
She can only do after herhomemaking has been adequately
completed.
Many have been taught thathomemaking for a woman was the
best, most holiest thing shecould do, that it is God's will
(01:26):
for her, and we've also beentold, in conjunction with all of
this, on the kind of theopposite side, that it's the
man's job to provide, not thewoman's.
Have any of these thingsimpacted you?
Elice Kilko (01:38):
Yes, absolutely.
I think I have heard all ofthose things as teachings, being
from the Bible which, as we getinto the text, we're going to
have to reevaluate each one ofthose, and I'm excited to do
that today.
I think the ones that Iprobably heard the most was that
homemaking is the best, holiestthing, Like you might do
(02:02):
something else, but if you'renot doing this, then there is
probably something wrong.
They wouldn't necessarily sayit's sinful, but they're like
this is the holiest, mostimportant thing and anything
else is less than um.
And then that it's the man'sjob to provide and the woman's
(02:24):
job to support, like I thinkwould be the dichotomy that I
was given.
Jessica LM Jenkins (02:30):
And that man's job to provide thing.
In every single complementarianbook I pick up and even
complementarian people I talk tothe man providing comes up
every single time and thesecould be like slightly softer
complementarians, these could belike the really hard
patriarchalist complementarians,Wherever they're at in the
(02:51):
spectrum.
The idea that it's the man'sjob to provide.
I think it's also a culturalnorm here in America that the
man has to be the provider.
So you're dealing with both acultural as well as a
theological norm.
But I think the episode todayis going to shake that up a
little bit.
I'm really excited to talk aboutthe verses in this passage that
(03:13):
talk about the woman of valor'sbusinesses, because they are
full of insight.
So I want to talk about kind ofeach of her businesses in turn.
We'll start with her homebecause I want to remind us that
in the ancient world the homewas the economic center, so
running her home was akin torunning a business.
(03:36):
Because of this, in the ancientworld there is no
differentiation between thewoman of valor's work inside the
home and her work outside thehome.
So whereas I'm using businessto describe her economic
endeavors, they would not haveconsidered them as businesses.
(03:58):
We consider the home andbusiness to be separate entities
.
In our culture, In the woman ofvalor's culture, they don't
consider those separatebusinesses.
So I just want to acknowledgeat the start of this episode
that I'm using our language todescribe something that they
didn't necessarily view that way, if that makes sense, Elise.
Elice Kilko (04:18):
Yes, that makes so much sense, and it's good that
you make that differentiation,because I think that that'll
help us understand the text alot better as we look back to
the historical context.
Jessica LM Jenkins (04:28):
So she has business ventures, but they're
also not like the stay-at-homemom's side hustle.
I see that, oh, she has a sidehustle like other stay-at-home
moms.
None of our economic structuresfit what is going on in the
text.
So I just want to start withthat, that we are dealing with
something that doesn't fit theway our economy works today.
(04:49):
But because today we wouldconsider these things separate,
I wanted to kind of discuss themseparately because there's also
a chronological order in hertackling these different
economic ventures or businesses.
Okay, so the first one is hertextile export business and this
(05:12):
is the one the text talks aboutthe most and we have the most
details.
So, elise, would you readProverbs 31, verse 13, 18, 19,
21, 22, and 24?
Elice Kilko (05:24):
All right, let's start with Proverbs 31, 13.
She selects wool and flax andworks with willing hands.
And then verses 18 and 19, shesees that her profits are good
and her lamp never goes out atnight.
She extends her hands to thespinning staff and her hands
hold the spindle.
(05:45):
And then 21 and 22,.
Right, she is not afraid forher household when it snows, for
all of her household are doublyclothed.
She makes her own bed coverings.
Her clothing is fine, linen andpurple, purple.
And then 24, she makes andsells linen garments and
(06:08):
delivers belts to the merchants.
And that is in CSB, perfect,thank you.
Yes, so you're calling this abusiness, but it wasn't like a
factory.
Weaving and making clothing,typical, normal women's work
(06:28):
Wasn't this like regular work?
So you're saying it's regularwork but it wasn't a factory.
Can you talk to us about that?
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:36):
Yes, Her weaving and making clothing here
isn't exactly the same as thenormal woman's work in the
ancient world.
There's overlap here becauseevery woman was weaving and
making clothes or things for herhouse.
Every woman in the ancientworld was engaged in this kind
of activity.
So we have to consider how doesthe woman of valor's activity
(06:59):
doing these things?
How is that different than theaverage woman's activity?
Why do I call this a businessand not what they are doing?
Elice Kilko (07:12):
So how does this differ, then, from the average
peasant woman's textile work?
Why is this a businessdifferent than what the average
Jane was doing?
Jessica LM Jenkins (07:23):
I mean, the biggest, most obvious difference
is that the woman of valor isselling her wares to merchants,
so that's going to create a bigdifference.
The average peasant woman isn'tmaking textiles to sell.
She is simply making enough toclothe her family and that is
all the time she that is all shehas time or resources to do.
She is scraping by to getanother tunic made for her
(07:48):
five-year-old because he keepsoutgrowing the last one, and
that is all she has bandwidthfor.
But the woman of valor ismaking an excess of textiles to
sell and then bring in income,whether coinage or goods, for
her family, and it even talksabout the kind of textiles.
(08:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, and the average womantypically would make very simple
garments from one type ofmaterial, often wool that was
usually grown by their ownflocks.
It's a very internalizedprocess.
So the husband and the kidswould take care of the sheep,
they would shear the sheep.
(08:33):
The women and the daughterswould then card the wool and
spin the wool and weave the woolinto clothes, and they're not
going outside to get this wool.
Usually they are raising thesheep, sheep to garment.
It's an internalized process totheir own household.
(08:53):
They're doing all of that.
They would do this inconjunction with other women in
their communities so they canall sit around weaving and
talking while they're doing this.
They would bring you know, youwould bring your wool and I
would bring my wool and we'd sittogether and spin.
But we get our wool from ourown sheep.
So it's an internalized processfor most peasant homes and they
(09:20):
may have had some access toflax to make linen, but that was
usually a higher levelcommodity and may not have been
as regularly available as wool.
Because wool you shear sheep ona regular schedule and as long
as your sheep is alive, it'sgoing to be producing wool
Whereas linen.
You have to have the rightground.
You have to have water, youhave to have all of these things
(09:41):
flax to grow, and so it's alittle more difficult to get a
hold of than wool.
Elice Kilko (09:49):
That makes sense.
So why is this a business andwhat do we see here?
Jessica LM Jenkins (09:57):
What we see going on with a woman of valor
in her business differs from thepeasant woman, because whereas
the peasant woman is gettingwool from her own sheep to make
clothes from her family, thewoman of valor is purchasing the
raw materials for her textilebusiness.
She's not growing the flaxherself and she's not shearing
(10:19):
the sheep herself, or herhusband isn't shearing the sheep
.
The word select in the NIV, inverse 13, indicates to seek out
or ask information about, so sheis having to find sources for
the raw materials for thisbusiness.
So that already sets adifferent economic kind of
(10:43):
presence that what she's doinghas.
She's not using what her familyhas readily available because
they produced it themselves.
She's sourcing the raw goods oftwo different types, both wool
and flax.
Okay, she is doing the spinningand the weaving in-house.
(11:05):
That's important and we'll comeback to that later on.
She's doing the spinning andthe weaving in-house.
That's important and we'll comeback to that later on.
She's doing the spinning andthe weaving.
But what the woman of valor iscreating is not simple like
homespun garments for her family, though her family does wear
some of what she makes.
She is creating luxury goods,um, and the text is very clear
that these are luxury goodsshe's creating, not your average
(11:29):
wear.
She is dealing in dyed fabrics,whether she's dyeing in-house or
buying wool that is dyed.
Linen does not carry dye wellat all.
That's why it's normally white.
So she would be dealing inwhite linen.
But she could be buying dyedwool already.
She could be sending the woolshe purchased out to have dyed.
(11:51):
She could be dyeing it in-house.
We don't know how she's workingthe dyeing process, but she's
dealing in dyed fabrics which alot of peasants may not have
time for dyeing.
Sometimes they would use plantsor other things to dye.
Sometimes they're just usingundyed wool because they got to
get this done.
So she's dealing in dyedfabrics and she's dealing in
very finely woven and fancylinens not a rougher, homespun
(12:16):
woolen clothing, but very, veryfine, intricate sorts of
garments and textiles.
Elice Kilko (12:24):
The reference to her family being clothed in
purple, then would be showingthat it's luxury, because that
was a hard color to dye right.
Jessica LM Jenkins (12:37):
Yes, yeah.
So in verse 21, when it talksabout her family being clothed
in scarlet.
That word in Hebrew is ofuncertain origin.
It is also similar to theHebrew word for two, so some
people think it's the word forlike red scarlet clothes.
The other people think it's theword for like double clothed,
(12:58):
like they have two outfits orthey have extra clothes going on
, because your average person inthe ancient world only has one
change of clothes.
I have a closet full of 15 to20 outfits and that's normal in
our consumeristic society.
But back then you had onechange of clothes, maybe two if
you were doing well, three ifyou're really rich.
Elice Kilko (13:30):
The fact that her family is in dyed garments, or
they have extra clothes isshowcasing the wealth that she's
able to create from herhandiwork.
Jessica LM Jenkins (13:33):
That's interesting.
She's also creating a widevariety of projects and every
woman who needs to makedifferent things for her family,
like towels and bed linens andtunics and mantles.
But the woman of valor iscreating extra mantles in verse
21.
She's creating bed coverings in22.
She's creating linen clothing,so you're dealing with both wool
(13:55):
and linen.
She's dealing with sashes andthe linen clothing and the
sashes are part of what she'sselling to the merchants.
Elice Kilko (14:03):
Okay.
Jessica LM Jenkins (14:05):
So, whereas a peasant woman would need to
make many of these end products,the quality of the peasant
woman's work wouldn't have beenthe same as the woman of valor.
So this business ismultifaceted, dealing with
multiple mediums for her endproducts, and it's dealing with
(14:26):
luxury goods.
Elice Kilko (14:28):
So what would be needed for the woman of valor to
run a business like this?
What entails?
Jessica LM Jenkins (14:39):
what all does that entail?
It would include she needs alot of social connections.
She needs connections with theproducers of raw materials.
She needs connections with themerchants, potentially with
people who die.
There is no Etsy or Amazon forher to just like throw I made a
scarf.
Who wants to buy?
There's none of that Like.
She has to have serious socialconnections to make this happen.
And some of the words formerchants in these texts are
(14:59):
talking about internationalmerchants.
They're not the guy from onevillage over who comes over to
your village to sell his pots orwhatever.
You're talking about wanderingtraders who are going from place
to place or even, potentially,ships that are coming into port.
(15:21):
And so she has some seriousconnections with international
merchants that she is workingwith to export her luxury
textiles.
The other things that areneeded to run this sort of
business that she is doing thatthe text reveals to us is a lot
of wealth, skill and some help.
(15:42):
You have to have privilege todo what she is doing.
This is not something theaverage peasant woman could
accomplish.
Elice Kilko (15:50):
Yeah, she would have to be important enough to
be able to talk to the rightpeople to get the sort of trade
to be, done.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:59):
Yeah, that's interesting and I really want
to mention the wealth and theskill together because of
everything that goes intocreating fine linens or woolen
garments.
Elise, do you do any sort oflike needlework, crochet,
knitting, any of that?
Elice Kilko (16:17):
I do not have the patience for it, but I deeply
appreciate it, so I don't do itmyself.
I've tried to learn differentthings.
I could maybe do some crossstitch if it were like about,
you know, two by two inches.
Jessica LM Jenkins (16:32):
Well, in the world of crocheting, knitting,
all of that and I'm going to tryto make it as simple as
possible because I'm sure wehave some listeners who are have
no idea there's different yarnweights.
If you were to go to a storeand, let's say, your friend's
crocheting, they're like, go buyme yarn.
There's different yarn weightsand these weights have names
which can get really confusing.
I'm going to go with thenumbers and so you have a number
(16:55):
one yarn which is really thinand tiny, and then you have a
number six yarn which is muchthicker and fatter and chunkier.
So if I'm making a throwblanket that is 40 inches by 60
inches, if I'm using number oneyarn which is really thin, it's
going to take me five times aslong to make that throw blanket
(17:19):
as if I'm using the number sixyarn which is really thick,
Because the thicker yarn worksup a lot faster.
I mean, this kind of just makessense.
It's bigger.
Elice Kilko (17:28):
So it's good.
Jessica LM Jenkins (17:29):
Yeah.
So when we're thinking about thewoman of valor making fine
fabrics, she is creating thethread or the yarn for these
fabrics herself, in-house.
She is participating in thislabor In order to take the raw
(17:50):
wool or flax and twist it into avery fine string piece of yarn.
That takes some serious skilland it takes time because you
have to make a lot of it andthen the time to weave that fine
yarn into a fine fabric isgoing to take much longer than
the time the average peasantwoman might take on a regular
(18:14):
homespun garment.
So this is showcasing the factthat she has the skill to create
that fine of a product.
That is serious talent andskill that she has and that
she's training others in herhousehold to do.
But also she has enough wealththat she can take the time to
(18:37):
create that kind of product,because she's not needing to get
this done right now so that Ican go help with the harvest
done right now so that I can gohelp with the harvest.
She has the time to spendexcesses amount of time on
making very, very fine clothing.
So the fact that she has wealthand skill allows her to run
(18:58):
this business that those in thatculture without the same level
of privilege she has could notaccomplish.
Elice Kilko (19:07):
That's so interesting, that's a really
interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (19:11):
Because, as we think about the saying, time
is money.
Time was always of the essencefor the peasant family who's
dealing in a sustenanceagricultural context.
They are simply trying topreserve food, get winter
clothing made so they do notfreeze.
They're trying to make surethey can survive.
(19:32):
They're not sitting aroundseeing how teeny tiny they can
spin this linen.
Can I get it smaller?
Let's see if I can get itsmaller.
They don't have time for thatnonsense and it's not nonsense,
but they just they don't havetime, they have to get it done
nonsense.
Elice Kilko (19:48):
And it's not nonsense, but they just they
don't have time.
They have to get it done, thetime that the woman of valor
would have invested in herbusiness alone shows her
privilege.
Jessica LM Jenkins (19:58):
Exactly yeah , Because your peasant woman may
have the same level of skill,but if she doesn't have the time
to invest in it because herfamily needs her to help with
the harvest and her family needsthat winter wrapped in two
weeks because winter is comingum, she doesn't have the time to
invest in creating a dyed,finely woven purple bedspread.
(20:23):
They need something warm andthey need it now and we're doing
it.
So the time and the fact thatthe woman of valor has help to
do this, that can cut down onsome of the time.
But in a peasant householdeverybody's going to be working
together, but on similarprojects for, again, survival.
(20:46):
You don't have several peoplein a wealthy environment who can
all spend their day working ona fine linen bedspread.
In a peasant home you havepeople who are working on
getting this coat done becausewinter is coming, and so the
privilege of time and skill andhelp really come to play with
her business here.
Elice Kilko (21:08):
That's so interesting.
What else would she have neededto run a business like this?
Jessica LM Jenkins (21:13):
She would have needed business savvy.
She has to not only be skilledin creating these luxury
textiles, she needs to haveenough business savvy to deal
with the merchants to haggle, tomaintain those relationships
with throughout the hagglingprocess, to get the good deals
on the raw materials to sell herwares at a price that they are
(21:38):
worth.
So she needs business savvy.
She's smart, she knows how todo this, she can run the
finances, she can deal with thecomplex social relationships
needed.
She has to have access and herhusband, potentially being a
king or very high nobility,could have given her a lot of
this access.
And she also just needed asuperior product, because why
(22:00):
should they take your sashes toanother country?
Why not Fred's down the street?
So there's all of those thingsthat go into this business.
Elice Kilko (22:11):
What other things would you say are significant,
then, about her textile business?
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:16):
I think one thing that this passage shows
that I really love and it's backin verse 13,.
It says she selects wool andflax and she works with eager
hands.
Her poems work with delight ishow you could translate the
Hebrew there.
She is excited about this work,she is passionate about this
(22:40):
work and she's hands on in theprocess.
Elice Kilko (22:45):
That's so cool.
It shows that she really lovedwhat she was doing, or she was
at least interested in it.
Yeah, yeah.
So how do we know that this isa passion of hers?
How would you prove that fromthe text?
Jessica LM Jenkins (23:04):
That's a really good question, because
I've heard this verse used a lot, especially when it's Proverbs
31 is taught as a checklist andit's used to say oh, look, the
Proverbs 31 woman chooses to beexcited about her homemaking.
She's choosing a good attitude.
Since she works with eagerhands, you should work with
(23:27):
eager hands.
Attitude Since she works witheager hands, you should work
with eager hands.
And can we make good choices tobe excited about whatever work
God hands us?
Absolutely.
But one of the ways we knowthis is a passion of hers and
not just as she chooses a goodattitude about mundane things,
is that doing this work isbeneath her station.
Elice Kilko (23:51):
That's really interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (23:52):
She doesn't have to do this.
She is the matriarch of a verywealthy household.
She has servants for this.
She doesn't have to, she wantsto, she is passionate about it.
She likes this.
We also can tell because theydevoted like five or six verses
(24:15):
to talking about her business.
Six verses are talking abouther textile endeavors and yes,
that is kind of women's work,but, as we've talked, she's not
doing what the average womandoes.
She has made this intosomething truly spectacular and
she's following her passions.
It is something that excitesher.
Her palms work with delight.
(24:37):
She participates in the labor,even though it's beneath her
stations.
She could be doing other things, but she chooses to do this.
Elice Kilko (24:48):
That's so cool.
I love that note.
Jessica LM Jenkins (24:52):
Yeah, she's choosing to focus on what she's
good at, because we talked aboutskill.
She's good at this, and she'schoosing to focus on what she's
good at and what she'spassionate about, where she has
talent.
There's lots of householdactivities in the ancient world
that this passage doesn'tdescribe her being involved with
at all, but that which she isskilled enough and passionate
(25:15):
enough to be very successful at,that is what Proverbs 31
focuses on.
Elice Kilko (25:24):
Yeah, I don't think it talks about food.
It doesn't talk about her likemaking food or drying water.
Jessica LM Jenkins (25:30):
No, it doesn't, I mean.
It says she brings in her breadand she provides portions for
her family.
So she brings her food fromafar.
So she's like queen of takeout,because the average peasant
woman not only is spinning andweaving, she's also grinding
(25:50):
grain for two to four hours aday, which is crazy the Hebrew
word for bread which is the mainthing that the peasant woman is
creating at home every day.
The woman of valor outsourcesthat labor.
(26:11):
She gets it from somewhere else, she brings her bread in from
afar, she gives portions to hermaidservants and that's not the
picture of her necessarilystanding over the stove like
here's your soup, yeah, yeah,yeah, this is more of the.
The storeroom manager, um,rationing out the large
(26:34):
storeroom that works for thehouse, um that's certainly
different.
It could even be like you needto go grind grain for bread, you
need to deal with the fattedcalf.
You you know it could beassigning these maidens parts of
the food preparation, but wenever see the woman of valor
(26:54):
actually hands-on doing foodpreparation anywhere.
Elice Kilko (27:01):
In Proverbs that's such an interesting contrast.
I mean, as far as how it talksabout her weaving, I mean it
definitely shows that it's apassion which is really cool.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Sometimes it seems like thestay at home trad wife culture
teaches that the woman has to begood and passionate about
(27:21):
everything.
Have you ever felt like that?
What did that, what?
How did that go down in yourgrowing up years and as an adult
.
Jessica LM Jenkins (27:32):
Definitely like, especially when you're
taught you God, especially whenyou come from circles where
you're taught God created you asa woman to be a stay at home
mom and you're supposed to do itwith eager hands.
So if you don't like it, youbetter start liking it, you
better get passionate about it.
And authors like Rebecca Merkelin her book Even Exile she goes
(27:58):
on and on about how you have tofind something in homemaking
that you're passionate about ifyou want to honor God.
That could be baking, it couldbe sewing clothes for your kids,
it could be creating elaboratemeals, it could be decorating.
But you have to find somethinghomemaking involved, not side
(28:19):
hustle, not business, not career.
You have to find somethingtraditional homemaking to become
passionate about, even ifyou're not passionate about
everything you house, andteaching us how to be hospitable
.
Elice Kilko (28:35):
And teaching us how to cook, not really my mom, but
but just like I don't remembergrowing up under the pressure of
(29:11):
you have to be good ateverything, but I definitely saw
this like this poison beingtaught when I went to college
and was kind of in thefundamentalist adjacent things.
As in like, growing up, therewere two of us girls that loved
being in the kitchen more andthere were two of us girls that
(29:33):
liked cleaning more, and so likeon Saturdays, when we had the
weekends, my sister and I wouldwork more on the kitchen and my
other two sisters would workmore on the cleaning.
So we were allowed to know dowhat we did best.
And that's not to say that wewere never taught to like switch
, you know, but we were allowedto to choose our passions, you
(29:56):
know.
So, yeah, that's interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (29:59):
And when I went to seminary because Dorothy
Patterson was the president'swife during the time I was at
Southwestern Baptist TheologicalSeminary she had a huge
homemaking push because she feltthat Dorothy Patterson
especially if you listen toother episodes I've read quotes
from her but she believes awoman is in sin if she's not
being a homemaker and shebelieved that women are often
(30:22):
not trained to be homemakers.
So she was trying to get thishomemaking education into the
seminary and they even had whatthey called the Horner
Homemaking House with a giantkitchen and women could go to
learn to do all of the domestichomemaking things there and
there was this huge push thatthis is a woman's calling from
God to do all this homemakingstuff, which felt really weird
(30:46):
because I'm like I'm here tolearn Hebrew and Greek, I'm not
here to learn how to bake a pie.
My womanhood class in collegetold me I had to bake a pie.
I've already been here, donethat.
Elice Kilko (30:57):
And that's not to say that there isn't worth in
learning how to do all thosethings.
Oh, I'm glad I know how to dothem.
Jessica LM Jenkins (31:04):
But there's a difference in being taught how
to do a skill and being told itis God's will for your life
that you have to know theseskills.
Elice Kilko (31:13):
Yes, that is a very big difference.
Jessica LM Jenkins (31:15):
Like, homemaking skills are good for
every single human to know.
Yes, everyone should know howto sew on a button and make
basic food, but to be told it isGod's will for your life
because you have certaininternal organs, that's where
things get really shame-inducing, especially for women who their
(31:37):
passions and what they're goodat lie outside the frame of the
normal activities.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Homemaking culture focuses verymuch on cooking, cleaning and
(31:58):
child care.
Those are kind of the three bigC's that my experience of
homemaking culture reallyemphasize, would you say those
are probably three of the mainareas complementarian homemaking
culture emphasizes.
I would agree with that.
I would agree with that.
And what I find fascinatingabout Proverbs 31 is you never
(32:18):
see her in this passage do anyof those.
We never see her cook herself,we never see her clean anything
and we don't see her do a lickof childcare.
In the entire passage, thethree big Cs that evangelical
complementarian homemakingculture emphasizes to the nth
degree, to the point thatseminaries are putting in entire
(32:40):
buildings to teach women to dothese things, and then they hold
up Proverbs 31 as a standardfor homemaking.
She doesn't actually do any ofthose things in that passage.
What she does do is focus onher passions and make
significant money by making itreally finely crafted and well
(33:04):
done.
Elice Kilko (33:06):
That's so interesting.
Jessica LM Jenkins (33:07):
Finally crafted and well done.
That's so interesting.
No-transcript, even though thatmeans she isn't doing other
(33:33):
sorts of labor for her family.
We don't see her doing cleaningor cooking.
Is she running her householdand making sure everybody has
what they need?
Absolutely, but we don't seeher doing it.
And when you come out of thecomplementarian culture where
you, as the stay-at-home mom,have to do it all, because God
created you to do all thecleaning, do all the cooking, do
(33:53):
all the things, the Proverbs 31woman gets takeout.
The Proverbs 31 womanoutsources the cooking.
The Proverbs 31 woman focuseson her skills and her passions
for the benefit of her family.
She's not ignoring them or notministering to them, but she
(34:14):
doesn't have to do everything.
Elice Kilko (34:18):
And that's such an important note to note that you
know to take that to ourday-to-day, we don't have to be
good at everything.
We can be passable on someareas and be really great in
others.
Should we be taking good careof our homes?
Yes, absolutely, but we don'thave to be excellent in every
(34:41):
single area.
Jessica LM Jenkins (34:43):
And it's not all on us.
The three C's in scripture arenever just the woman's job.
Every human in our household,if they're old enough, every
adult in our household, let mejust say it that way every adult
in our household is responsiblefor the three Cs cooking,
cleaning, child care.
We may negotiate with theadults in our household that one
(35:06):
person does more of this, oneperson does more of that because
of skill, time, et cetera.
But everyone is responsible toknow these things and to help
out.
It's not just woman's labor.
Because the woman of valor wasso skillful and was so
successful at making money withher passions, she's better able
(35:29):
to increase her businessventures.
Elise, would you read verse 18for us?
Elice Kilko (35:38):
Yes, Verse 18 says she sees that her profits are
good and her lamp never goes outat night.
Jessica LM Jenkins (35:48):
Actually, let me back up.
I want to lead into thatdifferently.
So we see that the Proverbs 31woman has been extremely
successful in her export textilebusiness.
Elise, will you read verse 18for us?
Elice Kilko (36:04):
Proverbs 31, verse 18, says she sees that her
profits are good and her lampnever goes out at night.
Jessica LM Jenkins (36:12):
Now Elise, the second half of this verse.
Her lamp does not go out atnight.
What have you heard?
This means?
Elice Kilko (36:19):
um, I always heard it, um, when, this verse, when,
when we read this verse and likewe're trying to figure out what
it means, a lot of times peoplewould bring up the parable of
the 10 virgins, um, waiting forthe bridegroom, with some of
them had oil, some of themdidn't, and how it was, did they
(36:43):
squander their oil or did they,you know, have enough?
So that was always kind oftalked about it in conjunction.
So it was.
It wasn't always necessarilysaid that like she was rich and
you can see, because her lampwent out the whole night, but it
(37:04):
was more like maybe a planningthing, like she planned well,
she planned ahead.
Yeah, she planned ahead.
Jessica LM Jenkins (37:12):
Yeah, I've usually heard this verse and
when I was doing research I sawthis in blogs as well.
People take this verse that herlamp does not go out at night
and that she rises early to giveportions to her maidens.
They take those verses as thiswoman works all the time.
She's up late working dangerous, and we're going to do a whole
(37:39):
episode on her resting, so I'mnot going to camp out here long.
But typically these verses areinterpreted as she works all the
time.
She gets up early and she'sworking.
She's up working late at night.
Elice Kilko (37:46):
She stays up late.
Jessica LM Jenkins (37:47):
Yeah, but when you look at verse 18 and
you take into consideration theHebraic parallelism that's going
on in the Hebrew poetry, itsays that she sees that her
trading is profitable.
The point of the first half ofthe verse is the profit from her
trading.
And then her lamp does not goout at night.
There are ancient Proverbs thatonly a poor person's lamp goes
(38:08):
out at night.
Oh, interesting.
So this is, yes, planning,because light is in a woman's
domain.
She has control of light forthe household.
But it also is a it is acultural way of saying she, she
can pay for the enough he'sproduced, enough to make sure
(38:28):
her lamps don't go out.
Y'all's lamps might go outbecause you're poor.
Her lamp does not because she'srich.
Um, the lamps at night are asign of wealth.
Sleeping in darkness is a signthat you're poor.
Elice Kilko (38:42):
Why would they burn lamps at night?
Jessica LM Jenkins (38:45):
in historical context, yeah, I get
this question all the timebecause we turn off all our
lights at night.
We want to sleep in the dark,but we are also not
superstitious people like theancient people were.
They were afraid of spirits andthings that go bump in the
night.
So they would often light lampsas a safety precaution against
(39:05):
those sorts of things.
And it also helps.
You can see if you need to getup with a child because you
can't just flip on a lightswitch.
But I think the big reason wasto protect the family from
spirits or beings they believedcould be around to hurt people
in the dark at nighttime.
So that's part of thesignificance she's able to
(39:28):
protect her family because shehas made money to keep lamps
burning and she's able to planahead how much oil is needed and
manage this aspect well.
Elice Kilko (39:39):
Okay, that's so interesting.
Now you said that there weretwo businesses mentioned here,
what is the second?
Jessica LM Jenkins (39:49):
one.
The second one the text doesnot spend nearly as much time on
, but there's a lot in this onelittle verse, in the context
that we don't necessarily thinkthrough.
So, elise, her second businessis a vineyard and winery.
So, elise, would you read verse16?
Elice Kilko (40:07):
Okay, it says she evaluates a field and buys it.
She plants a vineyard with herearning.
Jessica LM Jenkins (40:16):
So once again we see that the woman of
valor is doing things outsidethe usual scope of her gender,
and if you want to hear moreabout her acting outside the
usual scope of her gender, goread the full discussion or
listen to the full.
You can either read thetranscript or listen to full
episode of episode seven of mypodcast, where we talk about
(40:37):
that in detail.
But we see her here.
She is buying land and creatinga new business and again her
husband, who's at the city gates, is likely leveraging his
position to help her with herbusiness goals.
Some people argue and I justsaw this comment on a reel,
(40:59):
somebody else's reel, yesterdayPeople immediately look at this
verse and argue that womencouldn't own land in the Old
Testament.
So therefore she must be just.
Her husband must have boughtthe land.
She didn't really buy it, itwas somebody else and they
denigrate this for her.
But, Elise, who else do youremember in the Old Testament
that owned land?
Elice Kilko (41:21):
Well, rahab owned a house.
Naomi was getting her land backwhen Boaz married Ruth and then
the daughters of Zelopha hadinherited their land from their
father.
They went to Moses and spoke.
(41:41):
Since they had no brothers,they asked for their own
inheritance.
Did I get the ones you werethinking of?
Jessica LM Jenkins (41:47):
Yes, and so, though it's not normal for
women to own land, in the OldTestament it does happen.
So her owning land is notoutside the realm of possibility
.
Especially when you're dealingwith, potentially, a very
privileged, aristocratic womanor a queen, normal rules don't
always apply to them.
(42:07):
It's also possible thatProverbs 31 could have been a
later addition to the book ofProverbs.
During the Persian age, afterthe return, and during the
Persian age, women owning landand businesses was a lot more
common than previously, untilthe Greeks took over, but that's
(42:28):
a discussion for another time.
Oh the Greeks, oh the GreeksRuining women constantly.
Weeks Ruining women constantly.
So there's a lot in verse 16that the original hearer of this
verse would understand what'shappening, but we miss Elise.
What are some of the things youcan think of from other
passages of scriptures that gointo having or creating a
(42:50):
vineyard?
Elice Kilko (42:52):
So you have to have the vines, and in a lot of
passages it talks about having awall around the vineyard to
protect it.
I don't know what else Land Imean you have to have the land.
You have to have the vine.
Jessica LM Jenkins (43:11):
Here there's walls.
Almost every passage that talksabout vineyards talks about
walls, especially in the NewTestament.
Sometimes there's towers.
You have to have trellises forthe grapevines.
I don't know what they werealways made of.
Now they're made out of wood,which was kind of expensive back
then.
Now wood's much cheaper, butback then wood was much more
(43:32):
expensive.
You have to have again theseeds for the vines.
You have to have time to waitfor the grape vines to develop
and you have to have access to awine press.
So she buys a field.
This could be a terraced fieldthat was previously used for a
(43:53):
different sort of crop.
It could just be a plain pieceof ground.
We're not sure what kind offield it is that she's buying.
The Hebrew word here is verygeneral.
It could be like the plains wayout there, or it could be like
wheat field, we don't know.
But she buys some land and soin order to make plant a
(44:14):
vineyard she has to likely get awall built, perhaps a tower and
trellises for the vines to growon.
Elice Kilko (44:20):
So this is a lot of labor.
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:26):
Is she doing this labor or is she hiring it
out?
What do we think?
Elice Kilko (44:30):
I'm guessing she's not the one rolling up her
sleeves and doing it as a queen.
She's definitely not the onerolling up her sleeves and doing
it as a queen.
She's definitely not the onedoing it.
I think she's probably in amanagerial role, making sure
things are getting done.
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:43):
Yes, I would agree, especially since she's
passionate about her textilebusiness.
I can't imagine her if they'regoing on simultaneously, which
they may not be, but I imagineif they were going on
simultaneously she's going towant to spend the bulk of her
time there.
So she's much more in amanagerial role of this vineyard
which brings up.
(45:07):
So who is her hired labor?
Which means it's likely peasantmen in the community that she's
hiring to do all of thesethings for her, which gets
really interesting when youthink about how hard
complementarians say womenshouldn't ever be the boss of
(45:28):
men.
Elice Kilko (45:31):
Yippee.
Jessica LM Jenkins (45:34):
So, like John Piper, has specific
guidelines that a woman shouldnever be these are his words
never be personally directivetowards a man, like giving them
driving directions.
A woman could be non-personallydirective, meaning she wrote a
book that the man read, or shewrote the map that the man needs
(45:56):
to find his directions, ormaybe she's the one, the city
planner, who made all thestreets so he can only drive on
the street, so she's kind ofdirecting him because that's
where the street is, but that'snon-personal because she's not
like face to face with him.
So a woman who's face to facewith a man cannot tell him what
to do.
Her john piper and hardcomplementarians of his ilk.
Elice Kilko (46:19):
There's absolutely no way the woman of valor is
following this rule by JohnPiper.
There just is not.
Jessica LM Jenkins (46:29):
She didn't hear his sermon on this, did she
?
She didn't.
She didn't get the memo?
No, no, she is.
I doubt she's being the foremanfor the work crew, but she is
at least giving directions tothe foreman or the contractor,
like here's where I want thewall, here's what you need to do
, um, and she's financing it.
So she has a directive role inthis way at the very least it's
(46:56):
a conversation.
Elice Kilko (46:56):
At the very, I bought this land.
At the very least it's aconversation.
I bought this land.
Where's the best place for thewall?
At the very least it's aconversation, yes.
Jessica LM Jenkins (47:05):
Yes, and then, because it's a vineyard,
she needs to use her socialskills to negotiate time at the
community wine press.
Or it doesn't say this, butpotentially, as a queen, I could
see her building a wine pressfor her community, which is then
benefiting the entire community, not just herself.
(47:25):
So she's providing jobs for hercommunity.
She's potentially providingresources.
This wine she might be sellingback to her community or selling
to merchants.
We don't know the end result ofthis vineyard, but this could
be a big payoff for hercommunity at large.
Elice Kilko (47:44):
That's so interesting?
Yeah, because a lot of villagesin Israel, archaeologically
from this time period, had botha wine press and a milling
threshing floor for communityuse.
Jessica LM Jenkins (48:04):
They generally had one for the
village or the community thatwas shared and typically the men
were in charge of figuring outwho got to use the threshing
floor, the wine press, like,which family got to use it first
and all of that.
So now she's the one managing avineyard.
She's again stepping into thesekind of masculine spaces to
(48:27):
figure out how the produce fromher vineyard or she's hiring a
man to do that for her, butshe's still kind of stepping
into these sorts of areas thatwere typically male run.
Elice Kilko (48:38):
So let's clear things up.
Is the Proverbs 31 womansupposed to be a stay-at-home
mom, or should she be workingoutside the home according to
Proverbs 31?
What is the woman of valorsupposed to be doing?
Jessica LM Jenkins (48:52):
Actually, this passage isn't indicating
either way.
Actually, this passage isn'tindicating either way.
(49:14):
Firstly, a woman should do, orwhere she should be performing,
the tasks.
This passage is showcasing howone woman, or a type of woman,
brought honor to her family andGod through hard work and
creativity in her particularculture.
That's so good so it's anexample of hey, a typological
(49:39):
woman or a real woman back inthe Old Testament used her
creativity in this way, and Goddelights in women who use their
creativity to benefit theirfamilies and communities and
follow their passions, which hegave them, and their skills,
which God gave them.
God likes this.
(49:59):
This is the type of music thatis to be praised.
God likes it when women usetheir passions and their skills
to benefit their families andcommunities, even when they
don't do all the other mundanework.
Elice Kilko (50:14):
That's so important .
All the other mundane workthat's so important, jessica,
it's my favorite time.
Jessica LM Jenkins (50:28):
What can we learn about God's heart for
women from this passage?
God delights in strong,creative women.
God delights when women workhard for the good of herself,
her family and her community.
God delights when women followtheir passions, even when that
(50:48):
means they outsource orreconfigure normal household
dynamics in a way that helps herfamily thrive.
The Proverbs 31 woman's doingall sorts of things that are not
normal in that culture and Godsays that's cool.
Look at her.
She's super creative.
She figured out how to makethis export textile business by
(51:12):
buying bread for her familyrather than grinding, because
she's not spending time grindinggrain so she can spend time
making really, really, reallyfine linen.
She made a trade-off there.
That's cool.
Look at her being smart.
I like that.
God gets excited about womenusing their wisdom and
(51:32):
intelligence to find creativeways to bless their family while
following the passions andskills that he gave them.
Elice Kilko (51:42):
It's not the case where.
Jessica LM Jenkins (51:43):
God's like.
I desire all women to behomemakers, and if you are not
passionate and skilled in thatarea, you just better buck up to
choose to like it and learn theskills.
God's okay.
Saying okay, I mean we all needto be investing in our homes
men, women, children.
That's beside the point, that'sjust basics.
But if you're not passionateabout being a stay-at-home mom,
(52:07):
but you're passionate aboutspeech therapy, go be a speech
therapist and love on littlebabies who need to learn how to
talk, or stroke victims orwhoever.
What you're passionate about.
God delights in women,following the passions and
skills he gave them to benefittheir families and communities
in creative, novel ways.
Elice Kilko (52:28):
Yeah, the division of labor that you see in
Proverbs 31 between her and herhusband, for the historical
context is very different thanthe norm from that time, which
gives us freedom, then, in ourtime, to reevaluate the division
of labor between spouses inthis day and age, to say you
(52:49):
know who does each task best,and it might be a forever thing,
or it might be a season of lifething, which is really
interesting too.
What else can we learn aboutGod's heart for women from this
passage?
Jessica LM Jenkins (53:02):
God is not afraid of women making money.
Amen.
God is not looking for women tobe financially dependent upon a
man.
The man does not have to be thesole provider for the family.
Her husband probably was doingsome sort of economic work on
(53:24):
his own passage, isn't talkingabout him, but she's doing quite
well for herself and her family.
Her husband's not giving herthe wool and the flax from his
shepherding endeavors.
Of course he's probably a lordor a king, not a shepherd, but
neither of them are what wewould consider traditional
(53:44):
breadwinner for the family.
Provision was everybody's jobYoung, old, male, female
(54:07):
everybody in the ancient economyis responsible for provision.
So God is not looking for womento be financially dependent
upon men.
A woman making money God iscool with that, he likes that.
And God is not looking forwomen to be financially
dependent upon men.
A woman making money God iscool with that, he likes that.
And God is not worried aboutwomen being appropriately
directive to men.
She had the means, the job, thenecessity to be directive to
(54:30):
the men helping her with thevineyard.
I heard one hard complementarianblogger.
I read her article on this.
I think it was the TransformedWife and she was like it must
have been teenage girls who arehelping her make the vineyard,
because it couldn't have beenadult women because they would
(54:51):
have been being keepers of thehome, like the Proverbs 31 woman
, and it couldn't have been menbecause she couldn't be the boss
of men.
So she probably had teenagegirls helping her with the
vineyard.
But what do you think?
Probably not, probably, not.
No.
What do you think about who'sdoing the manual labor of making
walls?
No, that's teenage girls arenot.
(55:13):
Who's making walls in theancient world?
That is what the men in thatculture did, is they made
terraced fields and walls forvineyard.
So God is not worried aboutwomen being appropriately
directive to men.
If God was truly worried aboutwomen being appropriately
feminine by not being directiveto men, he wouldn't have praised
(55:34):
Deborah JL, the woman of valor,and Mary Magdalene in the Bible
.
Elice Kilko (55:40):
That's such an important note.
Those were all very strongwomen.
Jessica LM Jenkins (55:46):
We can talk later about the husband-wife
submission passages in the NewTestament and I think we'll do a
podcast on that at some point.
But when we look at how OldTestament family structures work
, the Old Testament familystructures work.
The Old Testament familystructures do not match
complementarian family hierarchyideals and I think that if God
really wanted complementarianstyle hierarchy to be central to
(56:11):
the godly family, he would haveput some of those hierarchical
commands in the Old Testament,not just the New Testament,
which was written under themisogynistic Greco-Roman
philosophical system.
And we're back to those Greeksagain, again.
Instead we have the Proverbs 31woman who is constantly walking
(56:33):
in male spaces doing typicallymasculine activities, being
directive towards men andearning significant amount of
money doing things that were notyour typical day-to-day for
women, mostly because she hadthe privilege, wealth and means
to not have to do the typicalday-to-day things for women.
That's really good.
(56:55):
So the big thing I would justlove our audience to take away
from this episode is that goddelights in women being who he
created them to be.
And, yes, sometimes that meanswe sacrifice for our families
and we do something that's not.
We do a job that we don't love.
We do activities we don't likethe most for the good of our
(57:17):
families and communities.
That happens, but as we areable, god also delights in women
following the skills he gavethem and the passions he gave
them to do life in creative waysto bless their families and
communities, even when itdoesn't look like the norm.
I love that God likes that.
(57:37):
That's so encouraging andthat's what I want to leave all
of you listeners with.
Whether you're male or female,god delights in his people using
the wisdom, passions and skillshe gives us to find creative
ways to do life and bless otherpeople.
Thank you so much, elise, foryour time.
(57:57):
Thank you all for tuning in andlistening.
May the Lord bless you and keepyou.
May his face shine upon you andgive you peace.
Have a great day.
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