March 17, 2025 • 57 mins
Web designers often have similar dreams…
Build a sustainable, freedom-based, lifestyle business.
Build a healthy, awesome client base.
Grow Monthly Recurring Revenue month after month.
Do it all while enjoying the journey.
My guest in this podcast episode has achieved all of this and more which is why I’m excited to share my conversation with Web Designer Pro™ member Cami MacNamara who’s been a professional WordPress web designer since 2002 and has grown her maintenance plan to over 200 sites!
We dive into mainly how she sells her maintenance plan and the automations she has in place to continue to run it at that level still as a happy solopreneur. We also get into how she has built her client base, gets referrals and her views on WordPress and where it is in the market today versus when she started using it over two decades ago.
Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/371
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cami MacNamara (00:00):
I'm a firm believer in the trial, the free
month.
I really believe that it'sgreat because you're going to be
following up with that customerafter you launch the website
anyway.
I do like a 30-day and 90-daycheck-in with every website or
redesign that I build.
But I really think that thatfree trial and giving them both
(00:22):
the deluxe and the basic versionis your foot in the door.
They see the value and it'shard for them to understand what
is a maintenance plan, what isa care plan, until they actually
see the report, because theydon't understand how WordPress
works.
You know that's for us tounderstand, so it's a great
(00:44):
communication point with them.
Josh Hall (00:49):
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with
your host, josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
What a treat I have for you inthis one, my friend.
This is a conversation withCammie McNamara, who is a member
of Web Designer Pro andsomebody who currently is
(01:13):
managing over 200 websites onher website maintenance plan.
Going to dive into exactly howshe has sold these maintenance
plans, what the offer looks like, how she's practically managing
(01:34):
them as a WordPress designer,and all of the ins and outs of
growing her MRR and just being aweb designer a WordPress
specifically, a WordPressdesigner Since 2002,.
Kami is somebody who has doneit right as far as building a
sustainable web design businessas a WordPress designer,
somebody who is verycommunity-driven and has really
started to give more and moreback to web designers.
(01:55):
So, for all those reasons andmore so excited to share this
conversation I had with you withher, you can check Cami out at
her main website, webcamicom.
I highly encourage you to gocheck that out as a really solid
example of how to have aprofessional, freelancer,
solopreneur site that is also,in her own ways, scalable for
(02:16):
managing so many sites andhelping so many clients.
She also has a brand newnewsletter called web
designerits, which we'll link toas well All the show notes for
this episode at joshhallco,slash 371.
Let's dive in to how the heckKami has built up a website
maintenance plan and how sheruns one with over 200 clients.
(02:37):
Kami, I'm so excited to chatwith you for many reasons, one
of which is I love, love, love,love, love.
Talking to people who have beenin this industry for a long
time.
Cami MacNamara (02:53):
That would be me .
Josh Hall (02:56):
When you joined Pro, and then I met you pretty soon
after at WordCamp 23.
And then I had no idea yourbackground and your backstory
and we just happened to beseated together, next to next to
me at dinner.
So I really got to find outwhat you're up to and I'm so
excited to chat with you.
So how long have you been inthe web design and or WordPress
(03:20):
game?
Cami MacNamara (03:21):
So this month is actually my 23rd anniversary of
having my business.
I actually started a school forweb design in 2000.
So it's actually been 25 yearssince I discovered web design,
and I was introduced toWordPress around 2007, 2008.
(03:43):
I can't exactly remember, butit's about the time that clients
started asking me to connecttheir WordPress blog or a
blogger blog to their staticwebsite that I had built.
And you know, I remember havinga panic like, oh my gosh,
people are going to be able tobuild their own websites.
(04:04):
They won't need me at all.
And I soon figured out thatthey still needed me, and by
2010, I decided to startbuilding everything in WordPress
.
And I'm so glad I pickedWordPress and not Blogger.
Josh Hall (04:20):
My health.
Things have not changed in 23years.
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's great.
It is funny.
Those conversations back thenliterally have not changed, even
with AI.
It's like, well, good luck,let's see how that goes with
clients trying to build theirown website.
So a good reminder that thetools have changed, but the
(04:40):
problems have not at all.
Cami MacNamara (04:42):
Right right.
People are still running theirbusinesses and dealing with
their website as a problem.
They're just looking for helpwith managing their websites.
Josh Hall (04:52):
Well, one thing that sparked this conversation is
your maintenance plan.
I think it was in the admin bar, because I'm just a creeper in
that group.
Cami MacNamara (05:02):
It's just one of the areas that I kind of keep
in touch.
That's such a great group and Ihave been a member for a long
time and just watched it explodeand I really don't know how
Kyle manages having somethingthat large.
Josh Hall (05:15):
Yeah, that's a whole.
Yeah, I mean just a lot ofpeople, 10,000 plus, you know.
Yeah, you know, and he's reallydoing a lot Like I ran a W web
designers group that's over25,000 people, but it was
different in the way of like hereally like.
It wasn't a community, it was asupport group.
What I ran, he is running alarge community which is all
(05:37):
game, all that to say, like I do.
it's it's one of the places thatis go to for me for news and
just to kind of get a pulse onthings.
And I forget the post.
I should have pulled it up inpreparation for this, but I
think it was talking aboutmaintenance plans and somebody
losing some clients.
And then you popped in withjust like such a sound reminder
(05:59):
for people to have a long-termmindset when it comes to
building slow, steady, recurringrevenue with a website
maintenance plan, and I was justlike virtually cheering as I
saw it because I think there wasa lot of negative comments and
a lot of bashing of clients, butyou came in as like a voice of
reason and it is just atestament to a seasoned
(06:20):
professional and a seasonedbusiness owner who knows you
know like you have to have acertain mindset.
So I would love to dive intospecifically your maintenance
plan.
I'm sure we could talk about athousand topics, but when did
you start your maintenance plan?
Cami MacNamara (06:36):
I started it in 2015 and I have quite the origin
story for it.
So you, you and BNI in common.
I was very excited when Ijoined your group and found out
that you had been a BNI memberbefore, because it's been such a
huge part of my growth, and Ijoined in 2010.
(06:57):
And by 2014,.
I was so busy because everybodyin BNI needs a website and I
just kept adding clients, andback then WordPress didn't
update as many times as it doesnow and suddenly I noticed that
everybody's plugins weren'tupdated and I ended up with 44
(07:32):
new website builds or redesignsin progress at one time.
Josh Hall (07:37):
Wow, I thought I was maxed out at 2444.
Cami MacNamara (07:43):
And I was falling apart Like it was.
It was the worst month I everhad of business because I didn't
have time to invoice andluckily I was in BNI.
So I immediately hired anorganizer to help me with my
office and a marketing coach whois still one of my closest
friends.
In fact, I just launched her anew website a few months ago and
(08:07):
I had seen a video by Troy Deanthat was a free webinar about a
maintenance plan, a care plan,and I hired my friend who was
the marketing coach to help meimplement that and it took us
from March till September.
I launched it and I verycarefully only launched it to a
(08:30):
few clients a month and justmaking sure that I could manage
what I was doing, and I'd signedup for ManageWP, which is still
a tool that I absolutely adoreusing and it's the most
important plug-in in my lifebecause it's the biggest
(08:50):
moneymaker right and I was ableto start implementing those care
plans very slowly, and over thelast 10 years, I've built up a
base income with it, and sothat's where my comment to the
person who is having so manyproblems with you know, if you
(09:11):
have a base income, you are ableto not say yes to every project
and not end up with 44 of them.
I generally run now between 15and 25.
And I'm pretty comfortable withthat.
Josh Hall (09:25):
What did you do?
So?
Did you launch your maintenanceplan shortly after that huge
wave of clients?
How did you get through that?
Cami MacNamara (09:37):
Well, I just plugged along and I'm an open
book with my clients andexplained I've kind of got
myself in a pickle.
This is going to take a littlebit longer than expected.
Having the organizer come intomy office and help me organize
and help me organize my taskswas super helpful.
So I still, to this day, startout with a daily work journal
(09:59):
where I'm writing down what mymost important things are to
complete, and if I only completethe first one while I'm moving
things along and as.
I told you before, I have alittle jar where I put in
post-it notes every day of whatI'm accomplishing, and so I'm
always trying to like pat myselfon the back for getting things
(10:20):
done, even when I did.
I'll never get it all done, soI'm just happy to move it
forward and you know, that kindof self-taught goes a long way.
Josh Hall (10:31):
Is that a key to avoiding burnout or getting
through burnout?
Just moving something, movingit along, even if it's just one
thing?
Cami MacNamara (10:38):
Yeah, I think it's a huge part of it, because
you know I am never going tohave a zero inbox.
Because you know I am nevergoing to have a zero inbox.
I am.
I'm always going to haveincoming requests and you know,
I sort of know my limits withstuff and I, instead of saying I
can start right now, I say Ican start in three weeks, and
(11:00):
like that amount of time givesme time to move something off
the docket.
I think a mistake that a lot ofweb designers make is like OK,
I can only handle five projectsat a time, and then they shut
things off and then suddenly theincoming isn't happening.
So you always have to feed themachine and just because you
(11:23):
can't start tomorrow doesn'tmean you can't start in two
weeks and most people that arereally interested in working
with you are going to wait.
Josh Hall (11:31):
So much gold Kami.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
I'm so aligned with that mindsetbecause I've did the same thing
.
I see so many designers have abooked out model and I think
there's a time and place forthat, I guess, especially if
you're doing like VIP days.
But I totally agree when aclient wants to work with you,
they don't want to see I'mbooked out for three months,
(11:51):
they're like, well, I would moveon, I would move on to somebody
else.
But what you did, I kind ofcall it space and stagger.
It's what I teach in mybusiness course, which is get
paid immediately but tell themall right, we're going to start
in three weeks, but for nowhere's your work, or there's
things you can do very quicklythat are not time intensive to
get the ball rolling.
Or just let them know likewe're going to start in three
(12:14):
weeks or four weeks.
So gosh, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, there is a risk of youdo get swamped sometimes, but
it's a good problem to have, atleast when you have a lot of
projects.
Cami MacNamara (12:24):
You know I I'm, I'll just admit you know I find
myself in the office on theweekends, not all the time, but
you know it most often on aSunday because I'm trying to
prep for the week.
I'm already in there anyway andI might do a little bit of
catch up, but I adjust to whatthe workflow is.
(12:45):
But I still make sure I knowI'm never going to have that 44
number again.
That was insane, that was toomuch and that was a product of
me not charging enough and youknow there were other factors
that led to that and, as youknow, in BNI you're trying to be
accommodating to all the fellowmembers and people that you're
(13:07):
doing business with there andyou know it was a good lesson in
what my limit was.
Josh Hall (13:13):
It's interesting that you went with a business
organizer versus just startingto hire, because I would
probably gravitate towards, like, hiring a junior or immediately
scaling in some sense.
Is it still primarily you, ordo you have?
Cami MacNamara (13:25):
It's only me and I am very happy with that setup
.
So in my before web designertimes, I worked for a retail
company here in Seattle calledJay Jacobs and I was an
allocation analyst.
There were a whole bunch of usworking together and three of us
(13:48):
started our own businesstogether as a partnership.
And while I'm still closefriends with these people, I
realized that all the money wassplit three ways and all the
efforts it just in my mind, mademe think I'd really like to do
this on my own.
Now did I think I would do it onmy own forever?
(14:10):
Probably not, but my colleaguesthat do have teams have shared
financial spreadsheets with meand while they're making three
times more money, we make aboutthe same amount of money, and I
don't have to deal with all ofthe uh things that go along with
(14:33):
managing a team.
Plus, I really like to do thedesign, so a lot of times people
will farm out some of thedevelopment and design, but
that's my favorite thing to do.
Josh Hall (14:45):
Well, you know.
Cami MacNamara (14:45):
I yeah.
Josh Hall (14:47):
I was just going to say you're a great example of a
solopreneur who's, who's notburned out and is is doing it
right in the way of I call itscaling your way.
I would say, when the timecomes, the course is.
You know, you're a member ofpro, so I actually think it they
give it be interested.
Did you?
Have you gone through thecourse yet?
Scale your way.
Cami MacNamara (15:06):
Well, okay.
Well, that's one of theproblems with doing everything
on your own.
Your outside time is limited,so I I always hop in there like
once a month and work onsomething, but I probably the
person who takes the longest tofinish a course.
Josh Hall (15:22):
I actually the only reason I say that is because you
can, definitely, and you're ashining example.
I mean, this is what I teach inthe courses like scaling
doesn't mean a huge team.
Managed WP, as you mentioned,is a form of scaling.
It's a form of automating.
It's multiplying you with atool, a process, a workflow, and
(15:43):
it's actually the first step Irecommend before ever hiring.
Something is like what can youdo with a tool like ManageWP to
replicate yourself?
So you're already ahead of thegame.
Cami MacNamara (15:53):
Yeah, your systems are a huge part of it.
And then there's other things,too, like having somebody clean
your house once a month orhaving your groceries delivered,
or you know.
There are small little thingsthat you can do at the household
level that free up your timeRight.
Josh Hall (16:12):
And.
Cami MacNamara (16:13):
I've had a virtual assistant in the past.
That was helpful for a whileand but I had my parents pass
away at the same time within 11months of each other, in 2022.
And for about five years, Itraveled to California every I
(16:33):
don't know every three to fourmonths to help my sister, as my
parents were aging and moving toassisted living and things, and
I just found it easier to haveno one to delegate to, to just I
took my work with me and itmade it a lot easier for me just
to be the sole person in chargeof all of it.
Josh Hall (16:55):
Well, a big key to you sustaining this is your,
your stable recurring revenue.
As you mentioned, you have amaintenance plan that's over
well a decade now for yourmaintenance plan.
Cami MacNamara (17:06):
So congrats, 10 years for your maintenance plan.
That's awesome 10 years inSeptember.
Josh Hall (17:11):
Yeah, heck, yeah, oh.
I would love to see acelebration post in that for pro
, because that's something to do, that's something to celebrate
for sure, and the cool thingabout that, as you mentioned, is
you don't have to say yes toall the projects because you
have some stable income.
The way you rolled it out isinteresting, because I rolled
mine out to everybody andovernight had over 20 clients
(17:35):
sign on, basically, and then inthe span of a week I went from
zero MRR to like over $2,000 MRRand I was like why didn't I do
this years ago?
And I'm sure you had a similarfeeling.
But are you glad that yourolled it out slow and steady?
And how did that roll out?
Cami MacNamara (17:54):
Well, I'm very glad because it gave me time as
a solopreneur to adjust my workschedule and to know what I
could handle and to learn howmuch time it was going to take
me to deal with this, and backthen I was sending out my
reports manually, you know.
So now in managed WP I havethem go out automatically, even
(18:15):
though I'm doing a review beforethey all go, and I'm very happy
with the way it was.
I think it took me three months, or three or four months to get
to 20 people.
By the end of the first year Ihad 70.
I now manage over 200 websites.
Some of them are clients thathave more than one.
So I think I'm in the 180clients that have signed up.
(18:39):
So I'm happy with it and itjust gradually grew over time.
And, believe it or not, myoriginal folks are grandfathered
in for the original price,which is very low, and I have
thought about raising that, andpeople seem a little on edge
about the economy right now, soI'm just going to let it ride
(19:02):
and all the new people come in.
They pay a more reasonableprice, so it kind of levels
itself out Well.
Josh Hall (19:09):
The good news.
I don't know if you saw this,but Sandy, another member of pro
, recently did that.
She posted.
I don't know if you saw herpost, it was just a couple weeks
ago, but she raised her ratesacross the board and it worked
out really well and it actuallyled to some other other
increases.
So I would definitely, I wouldencourage you for sure, mainly
because it depends on where theprofitability is like.
(19:31):
If it gets to the point whereyou're not making any money,
it's like you know, even if itleads to other work, like you've
got to make some some profit inthere, as long as it's not you
know something where you'relosing money, yeah, it's all
fine.
Yeah, I'm all good with youknow something where you're
losing money.
Cami MacNamara (19:45):
Yeah, I'm all good with that.
Josh Hall (19:46):
You know, what you could do is just like you rolled
out the maintenance plan,though you could roll out the
increases, I would have to do itthat way.
Cami MacNamara (19:53):
I have to do it that way because I can't handle
all the admin all at once.
Josh Hall (19:58):
Right.
Cami MacNamara (19:59):
So that's another reason why I rolled it
out, because on the admin side Icouldn't have.
Uh, if I would have gotten, youknow, if I would have sent it
to everybody back then andgotten 70 people to sign up
immediately, I would have beenwhere I was with the 44 projects
, so that kind of was a goodlesson for me that I have to
(20:21):
incrementally do my admin workas well.
Josh Hall (20:25):
That's a great point.
I love that approach to havejust incrementally.
You know, maybe three or fourclients this month get the, get
the notice that things areraising and there's a lot of
ways to go about it.
But this isn't just directedtowards you, kami, but everybody
like I can't stress enough thatrate increases are expected
with any sort of subscription.
Cami MacNamara (20:47):
I raise my rates for new clients.
You know, every couple of yearsit's just I, and that has been,
is something that has been away for me to recognize the
clients who have been with methe longest and to make them
feel special.
So I have clients that havebeen with me since I started who
(21:14):
weren't in WordPress, Right.
So I mean I have clients goingback to 2004, 2005 that are
still clients.
So we're talking many, manyyears and if they have me do new
projects, the new pricing is inplace.
Josh Hall (21:31):
Gotcha, yeah, and the only reason I mentioned that is
, I mean I don't know if I havea single subscription that
hasn't gone up.
I mean it's it's really kind oflike Netflix goes up, Disney
Plus goes up.
Cami MacNamara (21:41):
Mortgage payments goes up every year
mortgage payments go up everyyear.
Josh Hall (21:44):
You know, like every uh god, medical insurance
premiums go up every year, likewe are kind of used to that.
All that to say like I I thinkfor you, cammy, when the time
feels right and you want to givethat a go, I totally understand
wanting to keep grandfatheredclients, and you know, in a rate
.
But there does come the pointwhere I mean even managedP ends
up going up over time so yourprices go up as a business.
(22:07):
So all that to say for anyonewho's feeling like they can't
raise the rates.
It is expected at some point.
Cami MacNamara (22:13):
But I know you'll do it in a way that is
great for your clients and stillgives them the best deal.
Yes, of course.
Josh Hall (22:23):
That's really cool.
Now, how has your plan changedin a decade?
Did you offer what were youoffering 10 years ago?
That may be different.
Cami MacNamara (22:31):
You know it really hasn't changed that much.
So I have a basic plan and thenI have a deluxe plan and
basically in ManageWP I'd havethe bare basics for the basic
plan, which is the report, thebackup, the virus scan and the
updates and then, if they want,seo reporting, performance
(22:52):
reporting, the other things thatyou can turn on in ManageWP.
That's deluxe, and so those aremy two levels and I just keep
it really simple like that.
Now, last year I did offer likeeconomy where if they don't
want to report for me but theywant me to do the backups and
everything else, I offered likea lower price for that for those
(23:16):
clients who just I work with alot of small businesses.
So you know I want them in acare plan no matter what,
because it's better for them andit's better for me.
So my and I'm like 98% of newclients adopting a care plan.
Josh Hall (23:35):
They're very affordably priced.
I'm looking at it now they'reall under a hundred.
You've got economy at 40, basicat 65 and then deluxe at 90 per
month.
Now, one big difference herefrom what I teach and what I did
is that do these include anytime of yours per month?
Cami MacNamara (23:50):
No, I don't include time, because I don't
have a lot of time to give as asolopreneur and I there, I have
tried that in the past and Ihave a couple of clients that
are still I I'm still doing thatfor, but because it's just me,
I do not have the ability to tomanage that, which is fine.
(24:11):
They just come to me with theirrequests and I bill them hourly
for it.
Josh Hall (24:16):
Gotcha.
Do they get like a discountedrate as a current client or a
maintenance plan client?
Cami MacNamara (24:22):
Well, they're locked into whatever rate they
signed with me for.
So many of them are at adiscounted rate compared to what
I charge right now.
Josh Hall (24:32):
I mean for like your hourly rate.
Like if they say, hey, kami,we've got a few website updates
we need to make and you do likea retainer of hours as a
maintenance plan client, do theyget any sort of perks?
Cami MacNamara (24:41):
I'm just curious how no, no, it's just my hourly
rate.
Whatever the contracted hourlyrate is, I don't charge a one
hour minimum, so many of myclients are only asking me to do
a couple hundred dollars worthof work a year.
Josh Hall (24:57):
Gotcha.
Yeah, this is great and that'swhat there's just so many ways
to do this and for you like,it's obviously working if you're
able.
And the key to managing 200plus maintenance plan clients is
, like you said, the time factoris not an issue here.
They could do it separately,but that is how you build good
recurring revenue at a lowerrate at scale.
Is you got your automatedsystems?
I imagine you're probably doingthe same things week to week,
(25:20):
month to month, to where you geta good feel for how long this
is going.
Yeah, for me personally, Iloved having the hour.
Well, I had two differentversions of the plan.
One was like yours no hour andthen one they could do up to an
hour.
But I found that, like 90% ofthe clients I was managing which
at my top, was 75 sites in ourplan, okay, and we did not have
(25:45):
that many clients utilizing thehour some way.
Cami MacNamara (25:48):
I still don't have very many clients that fall
into that type.
I have a gym that falls intothat and they are somebody who
is on a retainer with me.
Josh Hall (25:57):
Gotcha For that, so I think I think I'm flexible.
Cami MacNamara (26:01):
When I do have that client that is coming to me
every single month, it's like,hey, I would reach out to them
and say we should probably do itthis way and I'll give you a
bit of a discount and I'll justroll it into your care plan.
But it's very minusculecompared to the regular care
plan clients.
Josh Hall (26:19):
Gotcha, how do you sell your plan?
It does help, I think, for sure, that they are very affordably
priced, so it seems like a nobrainer as long as someone
understands WordPress and you'rethere for them as kind of their
support, cami Um, but how doyou?
Cami MacNamara (26:33):
Cami cares.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Josh Hall (26:38):
Oh, you have such a perfect name for that.
Cami MacNamara (26:41):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (26:41):
That's beautiful.
Kami care when and how do yousell your plan.
Cami MacNamara (26:45):
It is on my estimate for any new website
build and I share the threelevels and I also share.
I also offer, like contentsupport and SEO support.
You know on page SEO support asseparate lines on my estimate.
So there's the build orredesign, and then I have all
(27:07):
these optional items and I givethem a free month of care, every
single client.
Josh Hall (27:14):
And you know.
Cami MacNamara (27:15):
That's why I pretty much have like a 98%.
It's very rare that somebodyturns it down.
Josh Hall (27:21):
Now I'm curious about the percentage split between
the three tiers.
We don't need to know exactly,it's mostly basic.
Cami MacNamara (27:28):
Most people are in the middle.
Josh Hall (27:30):
Interesting.
Cami MacNamara (27:31):
So that's where most people land.
Some of my larger clients thatare non-profits and you know
bigger businesses are moreinterested in deluxe care.
But for most of my smallerclients and you being in B&I you
know what that means it'sestheticians and you know that
(27:51):
kind of small service businessesin a local economy.
They're just.
They want the basics taken careof.
Josh Hall (27:58):
Now this is fascinating, Kim, because in so
top of mind, the last weeklycoaching call we had in pro, we
had a few members say that theirmiddle tiers were not selling
for care plans.
Because in so top of mind, thelast weekly coaching call we had
in pro, we had a few memberssay that their middle tiers were
not selling for care plansbecause they were like right in
between a care plan and a growthstyle plan.
But yours is.
So I would think, and what Isee typically with three tiers
(28:20):
is that most people either gofor the top tier or they're just
like well, I'll just pay thebare minimum.
What makes people choose thebasic plan that you have for 65
over the economy plan for 40?
Cami MacNamara (28:31):
Because my thought would be that most
clients are like okay, becauseI'm giving them, I'm giving them
the deluxe one for their freemonth, right?
And so I I give them the deluxe.
I give them both deluxe andbasic as the report.
So like, here's what you getwith basic, here's what you get
(28:52):
with um deluxe and with theeconomy you don't get the report
.
And I think they see the report, they want the report, they go.
In that instance the basicbecomes the lower level gotcha,
that's genius.
Josh Hall (29:07):
Okay, so that once you complete a project, that
little 30-day free trial, youshow them this is what we could
do month to month.
Cami MacNamara (29:13):
And then I imagine that's like, yeah, I
would love to have that month tomonth and I think that they see
like, oh, a backup every thevirus scan every day and she
updated like 14 plugins.
You know that report reallyshows them the value of having
somebody do that.
Josh Hall (29:34):
And, as you and me we know as Managed WP users, the
report goes out and says all theupdates that you did, like you
just mentioned the pluginupdates, the theme updates but
we do that in bulk in ManageWPas I'm sure you do as well to
where you could do bulk updatesacross all the sites.
So for the client it looks likeyou individually did that, but
(29:54):
they don't need to know thatyou're doing this in an
automated way, in an efficientway that does things in bulk,
which is how you're able tomanage over 200 sites.
Cami MacNamara (30:04):
Yeah, and I guess I'm still old school with
it.
I still go into each update andsee who needs it and I try to
decide it's going to be okay.
A lot of updates.
I will update only my websitefirst and make sure it works, so
I probably spend a little moretime doing those automated
(30:25):
updates.
I never just click the buttonand have them all go, so I do it
on Mondays and Thursdays eachweek, so I'm not doing it every
single day, but they see theconsistency on their report in
terms of having updates done and, like I said, wordpress has so
many updates these days.
(30:47):
It just you know it is reallyballooned compared to what it
was in the early days.
Josh Hall (30:53):
Yeah, I recommend and echo that same process where
you update your stuff first ormaybe be like a couple of
example sites that would youknow would require some updates,
and then you can roll it out.
Cami MacNamara (31:03):
Yeah, Especially like with gravity forms and
some of the plugins that I havehad, just like you have like, oh
, the next updates coming out inlike four hours, because a
whole bunch of things broke.
Josh Hall (31:15):
So you know, it's always good to test it on your
own first, yeah, yeah, for sure,and I think you and I, um, we,
I imagine we probably follow thesame approach with updates with
WordPress, where there'sthere's three digits, there's a,
you know, there's like onepoint, two, point five, version,
and it's like if the point five, the one on the end, is updated
(31:37):
, that's probably no big deal.
The middle digit is like, let'stest this out.
The middle digit is like, let'stest this out If it goes from
version one to version 2.0,that's like we definitely want.
We don't want to update 200sites from version one to 2.0
for Gravity Forms.
So that's, that's what alwayssaved my butt during those times
.
Cami MacNamara (31:55):
And that's why it's good to be part of
communities like yours, becauseother web designers can like say
hey, fyi, you know, I just didthis update and it broke four
sites.
So you know, I I try to stay incontact with other designers
when some big updates arehappening.
Josh Hall (32:14):
Now I feel like the if it ain't broke, don't fix.
It is probably a part of howyou've been sustainable for so
long and been able to last as anentrepreneur, a solopreneur,
for as long as you have.
I am curious have you done anyadditions to the plan, Like,
have you implemented or thoughtabout term again, privacy
policies?
Are there any other things thatyou've added over the last few
(32:36):
years, especially in the wake ofthings like accessibility and
privacy and optimization and allmy goodness?
Cami MacNamara (32:42):
Not to my plan, but I do subscribe to my web
audit and I have been doing thatfor about three years and I and
I audit clients, websites.
Uh, like I, I kind of have awish list of clients that need a
redesign and I will give them afree audit.
(33:04):
That starts the discussion andI always get a new redesign out
of that.
And so with that audit is allthe accessibility, the SEO, and
it just becomes part of either afull redesign or you know what
you call a an SEO boost or thattype of work where I'm going in
(33:26):
and helping them fine-tune theirwebsite the performance, the
accessibility, the legal pagesand all of that.
So my web audit has been anindispensable tool for me to get
that conversation going with myclients.
Josh Hall (33:43):
Genius.
Do you do that structured inany way?
Do you do it like once aquarter?
Cami MacNamara (33:50):
I have a spreadsheet going.
You know I did do and I postedand you had somebody on last
summer who talked about doingstrategy sessions with their
clients.
I forget her name, but it wasbrilliant or was it Lisa?
About the quarterly strategycalls yes, yeah, so I did that
(34:12):
and I had like it was all.
It was overwhelming Like Ibooked three days, I only had.
I only had one day open andwithin three hours they were all
taken, so I had to add two moredays and I quickly learned that
well, okay, I need to do thisdifferently.
I can't send it to all myclients in my newsletter at one
(34:34):
time it was super effective andI used that strategy Like, okay,
let's do an audit, let's meetback and go over that, and from
that I think I earned about Idon't know $12,000 in redesigns
just last summer.
Josh Hall (34:51):
Oh, that's awesome, I need to make sure we relay this
to Lisa.
She would love to hear how.
Cami MacNamara (34:56):
Yeah, it was great.
Josh Hall (34:58):
This is so great, kami.
This is one reason I lovehaving Web Designer Pros on the
podcast is because I don't hearabout all this often, unless you
would happen to you know, postit or you know, let me know.
So this is really cool because,yeah, that talk we did last
year with Lisa, which was atraining, also in Web Designer
Pro, to hear how that played outfor you, is really cool.
(35:19):
And look, most people aremanaging like 12 to 20 clients,
200 plus.
I totally see how your spotswould be filled very fast.
Cami MacNamara (35:28):
And I think it's also something to note for
experienced web designers whomight be listening that you know
, just because you'reexperienced doesn't mean you
can't learn something new, andevery time I'm part of your
group or listening to one ofyour podcasts with somebody who
might just be starting out orhasn't been in business as long
(35:50):
as I have, that does not meanthey don't have something to
teach me, and so I have reallyappreciated all of the
interviews and things that youdo on your podcast, just because
it's helped me learn new, newthings as a seasoned web
designer.
Josh Hall (36:08):
That's great feedback .
Kami Does your.
So are you doing quarterlystrategy calls as a plan no I?
Cami MacNamara (36:15):
didn't, then I haven't been able to do it since
.
Josh Hall (36:18):
Got it.
Cami MacNamara (36:18):
But, as I said, I kind of do outreach as the
clients come into me and I keepa spreadsheet of who I know
needs.
Like I have a list of peoplewho need redesigns this year and
instead of doing the outreachthat I did before, I'm just
going to reach out individuallyso I can control that influx of
interest.
Josh Hall (36:39):
Are you doing anything else to stay top of
mind, other than the monthlyreports that go out?
Do you have a monthlynewsletter?
Cami MacNamara (36:45):
I have a monthly newsletter and I have been
doing that since 2018.
It's become a huge part of mybusiness.
Back when my parents were alivemy clients I was always
educating them about my mom anddad, and when I went to their
home, they had no internet and Ihad to drive to Starbucks in
town they're, you know, everymorning at like 430 and get work
(37:10):
done and, and so I and I toldmy clients you know, I really
only need you to get in touchwith me for dire emergencies,
because I really need to bepresent with my parents, and
they were so understanding andif I didn't do that newsletter
once a month, they were like,hey, I didn't hear about your
folks, how are they?
And so it really brought uscloser and so I do a newsletter
(37:34):
once a month for my clients.
I also will throw themsomething that if there's an
emergency with a hostingsituation, I will send
information out to them as well.
Josh Hall (37:45):
Cause I do offer hosting.
Cami MacNamara (37:47):
It's just not part of my website, Like that's
something that I offer um in theprocess of getting to know the
client, am I going to be a good,are they going to be a good fit
for me to manage their hosting?
Or I'm steering them to thehosting that I want them to be
in, but they're in their ownaccount, so I kind of keep that
under wraps.
Josh Hall (38:06):
So hosting is not a part of your care plans.
Cami MacNamara (38:09):
It's not.
It's a separate line item thatI do kind of without it being
public on my website.
I don't want people reachingout to me for website hosting
only.
I only offer website hosting toclients and specifically most
clients that I've built theirwebsites, so I know I'm not
(38:30):
going to have a lot of problemswith hosting.
Josh Hall (38:34):
Would you take on?
Or if you had a client that youdesigned a site for and they
wanted to take their hosting toa terrible host?
We don't need to name namesunless we want to.
Yeah, would you do a care planfor them on terrible hosting, or
would you deny that?
Cami MacNamara (38:50):
Well, we have a talk about that.
Most of my clients take myadvice right and I honestly have
not been in that situation.
The situation is usually theopposite.
They come to me on terriblehosting and I go ahead and take
them in and you know, it isn'tlong before I can show them that
they have terrible hostingbecause now they're getting
(39:12):
their care plan and maybe I'llturn on the performance piece
for one report and just say, hey, you know, I saw this and I
wanted to share it.
I do customize those reportssometimes and not send everybody
out at the same time and I'llgo in and put my pitch in the
report, and so I'm prettysuccessful at getting them to
(39:36):
move.
Josh Hall (39:37):
Gotcha, that makes sense.
Yeah, it's always a bigquestion I get is yeah, should I
take on that client that goesto a host where we're like, oh,
because it's very hard tomaintain a website when the
foundation is rocky, right, butyou know what?
Cami MacNamara (39:51):
Sometimes you end up being a hero in that
situation.
So I took on a client who has a6,000 page, very popular beer
blog here in Washington stateand um, I will not name the
hosting company that they wereat, but it was a nightmare for
him and for me, and after aboutthree months I'm like look, we
(40:13):
need to get you a new hosting.
He moved to the host of mychoice.
He's never been happier, and soyou know, that is the kind of
story I want my clients to tellother people and that's what
leads to referrals.
Josh Hall (40:28):
Great point, great great point.
When, real quick, to backtrackon your monthly reports in your
newsletter.
Do you stagger those?
When do you send those?
Do you like, do you do your?
Cami MacNamara (40:40):
Monthly report goes out on the first or the
second and the newsletter goesout on the 10th.
Josh Hall (40:47):
So you know, that's kind of my another, another
great strategy yeah, because youwouldn't want the monthly
report and the newsletter go outlike in the day of each other.
Cami MacNamara (40:57):
So yeah, and if I, if I make the newsletter go
too long in the middle of themonth, I'm never quite hitting
that.
So it just I don't know why itworks, but it does.
Josh Hall (41:08):
Gotcha, do you ever lead with your care plans for
selling, or is it usually a newwebsite design?
Cami MacNamara (41:16):
Yeah, I have a handful of people who come to me
looking just for a care plan,and they're usually a referral
from someone.
So somebody comes in and I willuh, these days I make them uh
go through an audit first, so Iwill charge them for an audit
that gives me a look under thehood to tell me if one they are
(41:37):
hacked, or two, if I want towork with it and over the years
I.
I work with beaver builder nowbut but in my career I've worked
with Dibby Elementor.
Just kind of a wide range ofdifferent page builders or just
straight up, you never know,what you're getting Like
(41:58):
somebody's website could beclassic editor in Aveda or you
know it's in Infold or just youknow people go way back.
They're still in WP Bakery,those kinds of things, and if I
feel like I'm going to be ableto work this into a redesign,
I'll take them.
Yeah.
Josh Hall (42:18):
Got it.
I was just about to ask aboutyour tool stack and whether you
would take on sites that havedifferent themes, or something
like that.
Cami MacNamara (42:25):
As long as I get a peek under the hood first,
I'll do it and I have said noright.
I'm like you know, this just istoo heavy.
I'm not huge into WooCommerceLike I do small WooCommerce
sites, but if I get in and it'sa very complicated setup I have
a lot of colleagues and I referto my colleagues.
(42:47):
So I am I that givers gain forBNI.
That's a huge part of my lifeand I have colleagues for
Shopify, e-commerce.
You know big e-commerce, thattype of thing, so I'll pass that
person on to somebody else.
I never leave somebody withouta referral to somebody else if
(43:09):
they come to me and I'm not agood fit.
I also think that is a verygood rule to have as a designer,
because no matter who thatperson is and if you work with
them or not, you want them tohave that good story to tell
about you.
Josh Hall (43:26):
So many good business lessons in this.
I also love your approach ofnon-sleazy upsells.
This is how I view the wayyou'll take somebody on and
recommend better hosting or adifferent theme or a redesign,
like you're doing a lot ofthings that are very clever,
upsell, upsells in in the way,without saying like, oh, we
(43:47):
don't touch that, we don't dothat, and then obviously it's
working.
And I do love that you have anhonest and integral approach on
like not doing that, or we don'ttouch that, and obviously it's,
it's served you well, mostimportantly for sustainability.
Um.
Cami MacNamara (44:01):
I owe that to my parents.
Josh Hall (44:03):
My parents were great Credit is deal.
Have you had any waves ofgrowth with your plan?
Have you ever had months wherethere's just a ton of people
that signed up, or has it alwaysbeen pretty steady up and to
the right over the last?
Cami MacNamara (44:18):
10 years.
You know it's pretty steady.
There are ebbs and flows in, Ithink, people reaching out for
web design, definitely duringCOVID.
I didn't see as many signups orI didn't do as many websites
during COVID and was relying onredesigns.
(44:39):
And I did get a few newprojects, but only after things
started to lighten up in termsof you know, regulations and
stuff like that.
But it was also a busy timehelping people put the banners
on their websites and I gaveeveryone a 50% discount on
(45:00):
anything they needed.
That right after the shutdownand I had a couple clients reach
out and say they couldn'tafford their care plan anymore
and I just said you know what,no worries, it's on me for the
next 12 months.
And then you just tell me howyou're doing after that.
Josh Hall (45:15):
Oh wow, that's awesome.
Cami MacNamara (45:16):
That went a long way.
So sometimes you know whenyou're understanding and can be
giving, it will come back to youunderstanding and can be giving
.
Josh Hall (45:26):
it will come back to you.
What about ongoing churn rate?
How do you have any backupplans or like, or strategies or
templates or scripts for whensomebody says we don't really
need the plan or I just don'tunderstand the value?
What's your approach to totrying to keep people on the
plan?
Are you pretty quick to be like, all right, no big deal.
What's your?
Cami MacNamara (45:45):
process.
I'll be honest, that doesn'thappen.
I don't have that happen.
I think I'm giving I'm givingthem enough value that it
doesn't happen.
I will have clients uh, stepdown from it when they retire,
like I.
I lose clients when they closetheir business, um, or
occasionally when they selltheir business and that person
(46:08):
already has somebody in place.
But outside of that one littletime frame during COVID, I do
not have people cancel theircare plan and maintain their
business with me.
I think it's my pricing thatmakes that happen.
Think it's my pricing thatmakes that happen.
So because I'm modestly pricedor moderately priced, it's not
(46:30):
killing them to have thatpayment every month.
Josh Hall (46:37):
Yeah, the baseline.
I learned this with the newstructure of Web Designer Pro.
When we launched the tiersrecently, I realized that a lot
of people were dropping out whenit was just $200 a month and
that was the only option.
A lot of people were churningand dropping simply because it
was just out of their pricerange, especially for new
designers.
And now what I've realized withthe courses tier which, at the
(46:59):
time of recording this, is only50 bucks a month, 49 a month
what I've realized is like,similar to you, I've tried to
make a no brainer, low barrierrecurring revenue option.
That way, you know, unless theyjust don't want, unless they
just don't move forward orunless they're, you know, for
some reason not gettingsomething from it, there's no
(47:21):
reason not to have access to thecourses in the pro podcast feed
and the couple other bonusesthat people get in the courses
tier.
So I've learned the power ofthat too by just having a low
end offer.
That is a base recurringrevenue.
It may not be the mainrecurring revenue, but it's a
base.
Cami MacNamara (47:37):
Yeah, I think it's helpful.
It's like when you playMonopoly.
There were the people whoalways just wanted park place
and boardwalk and that's allthey were going for.
Meanwhile, I'm over here on thesaint charles place side and
I've got a hotel on every sideand it's not the highest price,
it's not the lowest, but youknow people, um, people are
(47:59):
always landing there, right yeah, a lot of really smart things
we've covered here.
Josh Hall (48:05):
Cammy, cammy, care that's such a great term that
you have for your plan.
Cami MacNamara (48:10):
One of my clients came up with that it
wasn't me, so isn't that how thebest names come to play?
Josh Hall (48:17):
I mean you.
You probably saw some of mydivi tutorials and stuff.
I was known as the the yoda ofdivi for years.
Oh, that's great.
Somebody just called me that inmy facebook group.
They were like you are reallythe yoda of divi.
And years Somebody just calledme that in my Facebook group.
They were like you are reallythe Yoda of Divi.
And I was like oh, I was likeashamed of myself as a Star Wars
fan Cause.
I was like how the hell did Inot come up with that?
But also I'm completely takingthat and ripping that off.
Cami MacNamara (48:36):
So yes, completely.
I have one client who a coupleof years ago, was signing me up
with a user account on her ownand she sent it to me and it was
Cammie in my corner was myusername and I thought that was
great too.
Josh Hall (48:52):
Well, this has been great, Cammie.
A lot of really great thingscovered here Solid business
principles that can be appliedto not only support plans but
growth plans, and just, I really, really enjoy your approach to
to serving clients the way youdo.
I know it's very personal, Iknow it's very genuine and
integral and, um, I think you'rea shining beacon of hope for
(49:15):
people who want to do this fordecades.
Cami MacNamara (49:18):
Uh, you've really well thank you, and I
just I have to tell you how muchI've enjoyed your group and I
get so much out of your podcast.
I listened to it a lot causeI've enjoyed your group and I
get so much out of your podcast.
I listen to it a lot becauseI'm walking in my neighborhood
all the time and someday I'mgoing to finish your course.
Josh Hall (49:35):
Which one Scale or business.
Cami MacNamara (49:38):
I'm just doing your basic course right now and
then you know, but I it's worthevery penny to be a member and
you know I'm in the communitylevel.
I really.
You know I'm not in there asoften as I would like to be, but
when I am I really enjoyed itand I think you have a great
group Happy to be a part of it.
Josh Hall (49:58):
Oh well, thank you, kami.
You are a huge part of it andagain, you know this.
This conversation is really.
It's going to prompt me torecommend that everyone check
out Kami's site, just with withwhat you're doing, because I
think a lot of people right noware veering away from don't give
(50:26):
up your support plans because,as you well know and a lot of
people find this out the hardway people turn on and off
marketing plans and they'll rampup and down additional work and
retainers, but you don't wantthem to veer away from your
ongoing support, your baserecurring revenue.
So you are just a good exampleof that.
Cami MacNamara (50:45):
Well, thank you.
And a maintenance plan isn'tjust for them, it's for me and
because, if their plugins areupdated and you know everything
is being monitored, it's a loteasier to clean up a hack that
you find the day after ithappens than one that's been
going on for eight months.
(51:06):
And you know for those who havebeen in business long enough,
know you know one or two hacksin a month can be very
disruptive to your workflow.
So I look at it like they'reenrolling in a care plan and
it's a benefit to me as well asit is to them.
Josh Hall (51:23):
One final question here for you, cammie, but real
quick, you have.
I'm going to make sure we linkyour site, of course, so people
can see your plan live, but youare also in the business of.
We're not even in the business,but you're helping other web
designers.
I love that.
You're really active and pro.
And then also just the widerWordPress community when would
you like folks to go?
You've got a couple differentbrands, so tell us about what
(51:45):
you're up to as far as wherefolks can go to connect with you
and learn more from you.
Cami MacNamara (51:56):
Sure.
So in 2018, I started aFacebook group called Web Cami
Cafe.
That's basically just webdesigners who are personal
friends, but also it's grown andI have 180 people in there.
It's really kind of anetworking group and a support
group.
We don't have any structuredposting, we just communicate
with each other.
So that's one place to checkout.
And at webcammiecafecom, I'vebeen blogging about running my
(52:17):
business since 2018.
What grew from that is lastyear I started a newsletter and
it's called web designer habitsand it's at web designer
habitscom.
Once a week, I send a small,tiny habit to work on in your
business, because I trulybelieve that the best way to
(52:38):
manage your business is one tinyhabit at a time.
That way, you're notoverwhelmed with trying to adopt
too many things.
So those are two places peoplecan check me out.
Josh Hall (52:50):
I can't believe that you got that domain name and you
didn't have to pay a premium.
I'm still shocked thatwebdesignershabitscom was
available.
Cami MacNamara (52:58):
Yeah, no, I have .
I have 180 domain names.
I have a lot of ideas, so a lotof different versions.
I have WP habits and habits WPand you know.
Josh Hall (53:13):
I have?
Cami MacNamara (53:14):
I have quite a few.
Josh Hall (53:15):
It makes sense.
You've been at it, you know,since early thousands, so you
know again a lot of ideas thatyou want to make sure you you
get the headstart on so that'sright.
Last quick question here, kamiwhat is probably the best sales
tip for selling a maintenanceplan that you've learned?
You've sold over.
You know hundreds now.
So if somebody's either earlyon selling maintenance plans or
(53:38):
just getting started, or maybethey're established but are
finally launching a support plan, what's a selling tip that has
helped you?
Cami MacNamara (53:45):
Well, I'm a firm believer in the trial, the free
month.
I really believe that it'sgreat because you're going to be
following up with that customerafter you launch the website.
Anyway.
I do like a 30-day and 90-daycheck-in with every website or
redesign that I build.
But I really think that thatfree trial and giving them both
(54:07):
the deluxe and the basic versionis your foot in the door.
They see the value and it'shard for them to understand what
is a maintenance plan, what isa care plan, until they actually
see the report.
Because they don't understandhow WordPress works.
You know that's that's for usto understand, so it's a great
(54:29):
communication point with them.
Josh Hall (54:32):
Gaby, this has been awesome.
I really have enjoyed chattingwith you and then getting a.
And behind the scenes or behindthe what am I looking for
Behind the curtain, behind thescenes approach to seeing how
this works?
Cami MacNamara (54:45):
It's really nice and I hope that you're going to
be at WordCamp US this year.
And you know, I hope it worksout for you, and if it doesn't
work out this year, I'm alwaysgoing to be at WordCamp US.
So I'm sure our paths willcross again.
Josh Hall (54:59):
That is the plan.
It's penciled in.
It is penciled in TravelingGosh, I wish there's just no, I
don't think there's any directflights from Columbus, so it's
like a full day of travel withour current season of having
three kids under six.
Yeah, like a couple of daysaway is cool, but, man, once we
get past three or four days it'stough.
Cami MacNamara (55:20):
So that time frame is a little odd to right
at the end of August for parents.
So for me it's easy it's athree-hour drive.
Josh Hall (55:30):
Yeah, well, I'm hoping I was going to say yeah,
I know you came out east lasttime.
Cami MacNamara (55:35):
I did I try to make them tall?
I first went to WordCamp US in2018 as part of GoDaddy's team.
I was their first proambassador and I will.
I will go from now on.
It's too much fun.
Josh Hall (55:50):
Yeah Well, you're a great example of what makes
WordPress great too.
Just, uh, it's just good folk,it's good people.
So, yeah Well, cammie, thankyou so much.
I'm going to.
I can't wait to share this withthe world.
I'll see you in pro and, uh, Ithink the biggest congrats is 10
years.
Congrats on 10 years here soonfor your plan.
Cami MacNamara (56:11):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (56:11):
Thank you, it's, it's , uh, it feels good.
Awesome, kami.
Well, thank you so much, uh,until next time.
Really appreciate your time.
Cami MacNamara (56:17):
Thanks again.
Josh Hall (56:20):
Full of gold, this combo.
I really hope you enjoyed thisone as much as I did having it
with Kami.
I love learning from folks whohave been in this industry for a
long time and Kami, as Imentioned on the outset of this,
she's done it right, shiningexample of how to have a
sustainable business.
I'm sure you have loads oftakeaways.
I would love to hear some ofthose.
(56:41):
I'm sure Kami would as well.
You can drop us a comment forthe show notes at this episode,
which are going to be atjoshhallco slash 371.
And my encouragement to you isthat, whether you are a new web
designer or an established webdesigner, take Kami's lead and
just be a good web designer toyour clients and that's the
(57:02):
magic.
You will get leads, you willgrow your business, you will
build referral partners.
You will get leads, you willgrow your business, you will
build referral partners.
You will grow your MRR.
Things compound over time, justlike they have for Kami and now
managing over 200 sites on hermaintenance plan.
So what an inspiration.
Big thanks to Kami for takingtime and for being here to share
with you what she's learned toget to this point in her journey
(57:23):
.
So again, show notes joshhallcoslash 371.
Go check out Kami's website atwebkamicom and be sure to sign
up for her new web designerhabits newsletter, which you can
find at her website webkamicom,also linked over at joshhallco
slash 371.
Stay subscribed.
Web designer friends, moreawesomeness a coming.
I'm a firm believer in the trial, the free
month.
I really believe that it'sgreat because you're going to be
following up with that customerafter you launch the website
anyway.
I do like a 30-day and 90-daycheck-in with every website or
redesign that I build.
But I really think that thatfree trial and giving them both
(00:22):
the deluxe and the basic versionis your foot in the door.
They see the value and it'shard for them to understand what
is a maintenance plan, what isa care plan, until they actually
see the report, because theydon't understand how WordPress
works.
You know that's for us tounderstand, so it's a great
(00:44):
communication point with them.
Josh Hall (00:49):
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with
your host, josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
What a treat I have for you inthis one, my friend.
This is a conversation withCammie McNamara, who is a member
of Web Designer Pro andsomebody who currently is
(01:13):
managing over 200 websites onher website maintenance plan.
Going to dive into exactly howshe has sold these maintenance
plans, what the offer looks like, how she's practically managing
(01:34):
them as a WordPress designer,and all of the ins and outs of
growing her MRR and just being aweb designer a WordPress
specifically, a WordPressdesigner Since 2002,.
Kami is somebody who has doneit right as far as building a
sustainable web design businessas a WordPress designer,
somebody who is verycommunity-driven and has really
started to give more and moreback to web designers.
(01:55):
So, for all those reasons andmore so excited to share this
conversation I had with you withher, you can check Cami out at
her main website, webcamicom.
I highly encourage you to gocheck that out as a really solid
example of how to have aprofessional, freelancer,
solopreneur site that is also,in her own ways, scalable for
(02:16):
managing so many sites andhelping so many clients.
She also has a brand newnewsletter called web
designerits, which we'll link toas well All the show notes for
this episode at joshhallco,slash 371.
Let's dive in to how the heckKami has built up a website
maintenance plan and how sheruns one with over 200 clients.
(02:37):
Kami, I'm so excited to chatwith you for many reasons, one
of which is I love, love, love,love, love.
Talking to people who have beenin this industry for a long
time.
Cami MacNamara (02:53):
That would be me .
Josh Hall (02:56):
When you joined Pro, and then I met you pretty soon
after at WordCamp 23.
And then I had no idea yourbackground and your backstory
and we just happened to beseated together, next to next to
me at dinner.
So I really got to find outwhat you're up to and I'm so
excited to chat with you.
So how long have you been inthe web design and or WordPress
(03:20):
game?
Cami MacNamara (03:21):
So this month is actually my 23rd anniversary of
having my business.
I actually started a school forweb design in 2000.
So it's actually been 25 yearssince I discovered web design,
and I was introduced toWordPress around 2007, 2008.
(03:43):
I can't exactly remember, butit's about the time that clients
started asking me to connecttheir WordPress blog or a
blogger blog to their staticwebsite that I had built.
And you know, I remember havinga panic like, oh my gosh,
people are going to be able tobuild their own websites.
(04:04):
They won't need me at all.
And I soon figured out thatthey still needed me, and by
2010, I decided to startbuilding everything in WordPress
.
And I'm so glad I pickedWordPress and not Blogger.
Josh Hall (04:20):
My health.
Things have not changed in 23years.
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's great.
It is funny.
Those conversations back thenliterally have not changed, even
with AI.
It's like, well, good luck,let's see how that goes with
clients trying to build theirown website.
So a good reminder that thetools have changed, but the
(04:40):
problems have not at all.
Cami MacNamara (04:42):
Right right.
People are still running theirbusinesses and dealing with
their website as a problem.
They're just looking for helpwith managing their websites.
Josh Hall (04:52):
Well, one thing that sparked this conversation is
your maintenance plan.
I think it was in the admin bar, because I'm just a creeper in
that group.
Cami MacNamara (05:02):
It's just one of the areas that I kind of keep
in touch.
That's such a great group and Ihave been a member for a long
time and just watched it explodeand I really don't know how
Kyle manages having somethingthat large.
Josh Hall (05:15):
Yeah, that's a whole.
Yeah, I mean just a lot ofpeople, 10,000 plus, you know.
Yeah, you know, and he's reallydoing a lot Like I ran a W web
designers group that's over25,000 people, but it was
different in the way of like hereally like.
It wasn't a community, it was asupport group.
What I ran, he is running alarge community which is all
(05:37):
game, all that to say, like I do.
it's it's one of the places thatis go to for me for news and
just to kind of get a pulse onthings.
And I forget the post.
I should have pulled it up inpreparation for this, but I
think it was talking aboutmaintenance plans and somebody
losing some clients.
And then you popped in withjust like such a sound reminder
(05:59):
for people to have a long-termmindset when it comes to
building slow, steady, recurringrevenue with a website
maintenance plan, and I was justlike virtually cheering as I
saw it because I think there wasa lot of negative comments and
a lot of bashing of clients, butyou came in as like a voice of
reason and it is just atestament to a seasoned
(06:20):
professional and a seasonedbusiness owner who knows you
know like you have to have acertain mindset.
So I would love to dive intospecifically your maintenance
plan.
I'm sure we could talk about athousand topics, but when did
you start your maintenance plan?
Cami MacNamara (06:36):
I started it in 2015 and I have quite the origin
story for it.
So you, you and BNI in common.
I was very excited when Ijoined your group and found out
that you had been a BNI memberbefore, because it's been such a
huge part of my growth, and Ijoined in 2010.
(06:57):
And by 2014,.
I was so busy because everybodyin BNI needs a website and I
just kept adding clients, andback then WordPress didn't
update as many times as it doesnow and suddenly I noticed that
everybody's plugins weren'tupdated and I ended up with 44
(07:32):
new website builds or redesignsin progress at one time.
Josh Hall (07:37):
Wow, I thought I was maxed out at 2444.
Cami MacNamara (07:43):
And I was falling apart Like it was.
It was the worst month I everhad of business because I didn't
have time to invoice andluckily I was in BNI.
So I immediately hired anorganizer to help me with my
office and a marketing coach whois still one of my closest
friends.
In fact, I just launched her anew website a few months ago and
(08:07):
I had seen a video by Troy Deanthat was a free webinar about a
maintenance plan, a care plan,and I hired my friend who was
the marketing coach to help meimplement that and it took us
from March till September.
I launched it and I verycarefully only launched it to a
(08:30):
few clients a month and justmaking sure that I could manage
what I was doing, and I'd signedup for ManageWP, which is still
a tool that I absolutely adoreusing and it's the most
important plug-in in my lifebecause it's the biggest
(08:50):
moneymaker right and I was ableto start implementing those care
plans very slowly, and over thelast 10 years, I've built up a
base income with it, and sothat's where my comment to the
person who is having so manyproblems with you know, if you
(09:11):
have a base income, you are ableto not say yes to every project
and not end up with 44 of them.
I generally run now between 15and 25.
And I'm pretty comfortable withthat.
Josh Hall (09:25):
What did you do?
So?
Did you launch your maintenanceplan shortly after that huge
wave of clients?
How did you get through that?
Cami MacNamara (09:37):
Well, I just plugged along and I'm an open
book with my clients andexplained I've kind of got
myself in a pickle.
This is going to take a littlebit longer than expected.
Having the organizer come intomy office and help me organize
and help me organize my taskswas super helpful.
So I still, to this day, startout with a daily work journal
(09:59):
where I'm writing down what mymost important things are to
complete, and if I only completethe first one while I'm moving
things along and as.
I told you before, I have alittle jar where I put in
post-it notes every day of whatI'm accomplishing, and so I'm
always trying to like pat myselfon the back for getting things
(10:20):
done, even when I did.
I'll never get it all done, soI'm just happy to move it
forward and you know, that kindof self-taught goes a long way.
Josh Hall (10:31):
Is that a key to avoiding burnout or getting
through burnout?
Just moving something, movingit along, even if it's just one
thing?
Cami MacNamara (10:38):
Yeah, I think it's a huge part of it, because
you know I am never going tohave a zero inbox.
Because you know I am nevergoing to have a zero inbox.
I am.
I'm always going to haveincoming requests and you know,
I sort of know my limits withstuff and I, instead of saying I
can start right now, I say Ican start in three weeks, and
(11:00):
like that amount of time givesme time to move something off
the docket.
I think a mistake that a lot ofweb designers make is like OK,
I can only handle five projectsat a time, and then they shut
things off and then suddenly theincoming isn't happening.
So you always have to feed themachine and just because you
(11:23):
can't start tomorrow doesn'tmean you can't start in two
weeks and most people that arereally interested in working
with you are going to wait.
Josh Hall (11:31):
So much gold Kami.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
I'm so aligned with that mindsetbecause I've did the same thing
.
I see so many designers have abooked out model and I think
there's a time and place forthat, I guess, especially if
you're doing like VIP days.
But I totally agree when aclient wants to work with you,
they don't want to see I'mbooked out for three months,
(11:51):
they're like, well, I would moveon, I would move on to somebody
else.
But what you did, I kind ofcall it space and stagger.
It's what I teach in mybusiness course, which is get
paid immediately but tell themall right, we're going to start
in three weeks, but for nowhere's your work, or there's
things you can do very quicklythat are not time intensive to
get the ball rolling.
Or just let them know likewe're going to start in three
(12:14):
weeks or four weeks.
So gosh, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, there is a risk of youdo get swamped sometimes, but
it's a good problem to have, atleast when you have a lot of
projects.
Cami MacNamara (12:24):
You know I I'm, I'll just admit you know I find
myself in the office on theweekends, not all the time, but
you know it most often on aSunday because I'm trying to
prep for the week.
I'm already in there anyway andI might do a little bit of
catch up, but I adjust to whatthe workflow is.
(12:45):
But I still make sure I knowI'm never going to have that 44
number again.
That was insane, that was toomuch and that was a product of
me not charging enough and youknow there were other factors
that led to that and, as youknow, in BNI you're trying to be
accommodating to all the fellowmembers and people that you're
(13:07):
doing business with there andyou know it was a good lesson in
what my limit was.
Josh Hall (13:13):
It's interesting that you went with a business
organizer versus just startingto hire, because I would
probably gravitate towards, like, hiring a junior or immediately
scaling in some sense.
Is it still primarily you, ordo you have?
Cami MacNamara (13:25):
It's only me and I am very happy with that setup
.
So in my before web designertimes, I worked for a retail
company here in Seattle calledJay Jacobs and I was an
allocation analyst.
There were a whole bunch of usworking together and three of us
(13:48):
started our own businesstogether as a partnership.
And while I'm still closefriends with these people, I
realized that all the money wassplit three ways and all the
efforts it just in my mind, mademe think I'd really like to do
this on my own.
Now did I think I would do it onmy own forever?
(14:10):
Probably not, but my colleaguesthat do have teams have shared
financial spreadsheets with meand while they're making three
times more money, we make aboutthe same amount of money, and I
don't have to deal with all ofthe uh things that go along with
(14:33):
managing a team.
Plus, I really like to do thedesign, so a lot of times people
will farm out some of thedevelopment and design, but
that's my favorite thing to do.
Josh Hall (14:45):
Well, you know.
Cami MacNamara (14:45):
I yeah.
Josh Hall (14:47):
I was just going to say you're a great example of a
solopreneur who's, who's notburned out and is is doing it
right in the way of I call itscaling your way.
I would say, when the timecomes, the course is.
You know, you're a member ofpro, so I actually think it they
give it be interested.
Did you?
Have you gone through thecourse yet?
Scale your way.
Cami MacNamara (15:06):
Well, okay.
Well, that's one of theproblems with doing everything
on your own.
Your outside time is limited,so I I always hop in there like
once a month and work onsomething, but I probably the
person who takes the longest tofinish a course.
Josh Hall (15:22):
I actually the only reason I say that is because you
can, definitely, and you're ashining example.
I mean, this is what I teach inthe courses like scaling
doesn't mean a huge team.
Managed WP, as you mentioned,is a form of scaling.
It's a form of automating.
It's multiplying you with atool, a process, a workflow, and
(15:43):
it's actually the first step Irecommend before ever hiring.
Something is like what can youdo with a tool like ManageWP to
replicate yourself?
So you're already ahead of thegame.
Cami MacNamara (15:53):
Yeah, your systems are a huge part of it.
And then there's other things,too, like having somebody clean
your house once a month orhaving your groceries delivered,
or you know.
There are small little thingsthat you can do at the household
level that free up your timeRight.
Josh Hall (16:12):
And.
Cami MacNamara (16:13):
I've had a virtual assistant in the past.
That was helpful for a whileand but I had my parents pass
away at the same time within 11months of each other, in 2022.
And for about five years, Itraveled to California every I
(16:33):
don't know every three to fourmonths to help my sister, as my
parents were aging and moving toassisted living and things, and
I just found it easier to haveno one to delegate to, to just I
took my work with me and itmade it a lot easier for me just
to be the sole person in chargeof all of it.
Josh Hall (16:55):
Well, a big key to you sustaining this is your,
your stable recurring revenue.
As you mentioned, you have amaintenance plan that's over
well a decade now for yourmaintenance plan.
Cami MacNamara (17:06):
So congrats, 10 years for your maintenance plan.
That's awesome 10 years inSeptember.
Josh Hall (17:11):
Yeah, heck, yeah, oh.
I would love to see acelebration post in that for pro
, because that's something to do, that's something to celebrate
for sure, and the cool thingabout that, as you mentioned, is
you don't have to say yes toall the projects because you
have some stable income.
The way you rolled it out isinteresting, because I rolled
mine out to everybody andovernight had over 20 clients
(17:35):
sign on, basically, and then inthe span of a week I went from
zero MRR to like over $2,000 MRRand I was like why didn't I do
this years ago?
And I'm sure you had a similarfeeling.
But are you glad that yourolled it out slow and steady?
And how did that roll out?
Cami MacNamara (17:54):
Well, I'm very glad because it gave me time as
a solopreneur to adjust my workschedule and to know what I
could handle and to learn howmuch time it was going to take
me to deal with this, and backthen I was sending out my
reports manually, you know.
So now in managed WP I havethem go out automatically, even
(18:15):
though I'm doing a review beforethey all go, and I'm very happy
with the way it was.
I think it took me three months, or three or four months to get
to 20 people.
By the end of the first year Ihad 70.
I now manage over 200 websites.
Some of them are clients thathave more than one.
So I think I'm in the 180clients that have signed up.
(18:39):
So I'm happy with it and itjust gradually grew over time.
And, believe it or not, myoriginal folks are grandfathered
in for the original price,which is very low, and I have
thought about raising that, andpeople seem a little on edge
about the economy right now, soI'm just going to let it ride
(19:02):
and all the new people come in.
They pay a more reasonableprice, so it kind of levels
itself out Well.
Josh Hall (19:09):
The good news.
I don't know if you saw this,but Sandy, another member of pro
, recently did that.
She posted.
I don't know if you saw herpost, it was just a couple weeks
ago, but she raised her ratesacross the board and it worked
out really well and it actuallyled to some other other
increases.
So I would definitely, I wouldencourage you for sure, mainly
because it depends on where theprofitability is like.
(19:31):
If it gets to the point whereyou're not making any money,
it's like you know, even if itleads to other work, like you've
got to make some some profit inthere, as long as it's not you
know something where you'relosing money, yeah, it's all
fine.
Yeah, I'm all good with youknow something where you're
losing money.
Cami MacNamara (19:45):
Yeah, I'm all good with that.
Josh Hall (19:46):
You know, what you could do is just like you rolled
out the maintenance plan,though you could roll out the
increases, I would have to do itthat way.
Cami MacNamara (19:53):
I have to do it that way because I can't handle
all the admin all at once.
Josh Hall (19:58):
Right.
Cami MacNamara (19:59):
So that's another reason why I rolled it
out, because on the admin side Icouldn't have.
Uh, if I would have gotten, youknow, if I would have sent it
to everybody back then andgotten 70 people to sign up
immediately, I would have beenwhere I was with the 44 projects
, so that kind of was a goodlesson for me that I have to
(20:21):
incrementally do my admin workas well.
Josh Hall (20:25):
That's a great point.
I love that approach to havejust incrementally.
You know, maybe three or fourclients this month get the, get
the notice that things areraising and there's a lot of
ways to go about it.
But this isn't just directedtowards you, kami, but everybody
like I can't stress enough thatrate increases are expected
with any sort of subscription.
Cami MacNamara (20:47):
I raise my rates for new clients.
You know, every couple of yearsit's just I, and that has been,
is something that has been away for me to recognize the
clients who have been with methe longest and to make them
feel special.
So I have clients that havebeen with me since I started who
(21:14):
weren't in WordPress, Right.
So I mean I have clients goingback to 2004, 2005 that are
still clients.
So we're talking many, manyyears and if they have me do new
projects, the new pricing is inplace.
Josh Hall (21:31):
Gotcha, yeah, and the only reason I mentioned that is
, I mean I don't know if I havea single subscription that
hasn't gone up.
I mean it's it's really kind oflike Netflix goes up, Disney
Plus goes up.
Cami MacNamara (21:41):
Mortgage payments goes up every year
mortgage payments go up everyyear.
Josh Hall (21:44):
You know, like every uh god, medical insurance
premiums go up every year, likewe are kind of used to that.
All that to say like I I thinkfor you, cammy, when the time
feels right and you want to givethat a go, I totally understand
wanting to keep grandfatheredclients, and you know, in a rate
.
But there does come the pointwhere I mean even managedP ends
up going up over time so yourprices go up as a business.
(22:07):
So all that to say for anyonewho's feeling like they can't
raise the rates.
It is expected at some point.
Cami MacNamara (22:13):
But I know you'll do it in a way that is
great for your clients and stillgives them the best deal.
Yes, of course.
Josh Hall (22:23):
That's really cool.
Now, how has your plan changedin a decade?
Did you offer what were youoffering 10 years ago?
That may be different.
Cami MacNamara (22:31):
You know it really hasn't changed that much.
So I have a basic plan and thenI have a deluxe plan and
basically in ManageWP I'd havethe bare basics for the basic
plan, which is the report, thebackup, the virus scan and the
updates and then, if they want,seo reporting, performance
(22:52):
reporting, the other things thatyou can turn on in ManageWP.
That's deluxe, and so those aremy two levels and I just keep
it really simple like that.
Now, last year I did offer likeeconomy where if they don't
want to report for me but theywant me to do the backups and
everything else, I offered likea lower price for that for those
(23:16):
clients who just I work with alot of small businesses.
So you know I want them in acare plan no matter what,
because it's better for them andit's better for me.
So my and I'm like 98% of newclients adopting a care plan.
Josh Hall (23:35):
They're very affordably priced.
I'm looking at it now they'reall under a hundred.
You've got economy at 40, basicat 65 and then deluxe at 90 per
month.
Now, one big difference herefrom what I teach and what I did
is that do these include anytime of yours per month?
Cami MacNamara (23:50):
No, I don't include time, because I don't
have a lot of time to give as asolopreneur and I there, I have
tried that in the past and Ihave a couple of clients that
are still I I'm still doing thatfor, but because it's just me,
I do not have the ability to tomanage that, which is fine.
(24:11):
They just come to me with theirrequests and I bill them hourly
for it.
Josh Hall (24:16):
Gotcha.
Do they get like a discountedrate as a current client or a
maintenance plan client?
Cami MacNamara (24:22):
Well, they're locked into whatever rate they
signed with me for.
So many of them are at adiscounted rate compared to what
I charge right now.
Josh Hall (24:32):
I mean for like your hourly rate.
Like if they say, hey, kami,we've got a few website updates
we need to make and you do likea retainer of hours as a
maintenance plan client, do theyget any sort of perks?
Cami MacNamara (24:41):
I'm just curious how no, no, it's just my hourly
rate.
Whatever the contracted hourlyrate is, I don't charge a one
hour minimum, so many of myclients are only asking me to do
a couple hundred dollars worthof work a year.
Josh Hall (24:57):
Gotcha.
Yeah, this is great and that'swhat there's just so many ways
to do this and for you like,it's obviously working if you're
able.
And the key to managing 200plus maintenance plan clients is
, like you said, the time factoris not an issue here.
They could do it separately,but that is how you build good
recurring revenue at a lowerrate at scale.
Is you got your automatedsystems?
I imagine you're probably doingthe same things week to week,
(25:20):
month to month, to where you geta good feel for how long this
is going.
Yeah, for me personally, Iloved having the hour.
Well, I had two differentversions of the plan.
One was like yours no hour andthen one they could do up to an
hour.
But I found that, like 90% ofthe clients I was managing which
at my top, was 75 sites in ourplan, okay, and we did not have
(25:45):
that many clients utilizing thehour some way.
Cami MacNamara (25:48):
I still don't have very many clients that fall
into that type.
I have a gym that falls intothat and they are somebody who
is on a retainer with me.
Josh Hall (25:57):
Gotcha For that, so I think I think I'm flexible.
Cami MacNamara (26:01):
When I do have that client that is coming to me
every single month, it's like,hey, I would reach out to them
and say we should probably do itthis way and I'll give you a
bit of a discount and I'll justroll it into your care plan.
But it's very minusculecompared to the regular care
plan clients.
Josh Hall (26:19):
Gotcha, how do you sell your plan?
It does help, I think, for sure, that they are very affordably
priced, so it seems like a nobrainer as long as someone
understands WordPress and you'rethere for them as kind of their
support, cami Um, but how doyou?
Cami MacNamara (26:33):
Cami cares.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Josh Hall (26:38):
Oh, you have such a perfect name for that.
Cami MacNamara (26:41):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (26:41):
That's beautiful.
Kami care when and how do yousell your plan.
Cami MacNamara (26:45):
It is on my estimate for any new website
build and I share the threelevels and I also share.
I also offer, like contentsupport and SEO support.
You know on page SEO support asseparate lines on my estimate.
So there's the build orredesign, and then I have all
(27:07):
these optional items and I givethem a free month of care, every
single client.
Josh Hall (27:14):
And you know.
Cami MacNamara (27:15):
That's why I pretty much have like a 98%.
It's very rare that somebodyturns it down.
Josh Hall (27:21):
Now I'm curious about the percentage split between
the three tiers.
We don't need to know exactly,it's mostly basic.
Cami MacNamara (27:28):
Most people are in the middle.
Josh Hall (27:30):
Interesting.
Cami MacNamara (27:31):
So that's where most people land.
Some of my larger clients thatare non-profits and you know
bigger businesses are moreinterested in deluxe care.
But for most of my smallerclients and you being in B&I you
know what that means it'sestheticians and you know that
(27:51):
kind of small service businessesin a local economy.
They're just.
They want the basics taken careof.
Josh Hall (27:58):
Now this is fascinating, Kim, because in so
top of mind, the last weeklycoaching call we had in pro, we
had a few members say that theirmiddle tiers were not selling
for care plans.
Because in so top of mind, thelast weekly coaching call we had
in pro, we had a few memberssay that their middle tiers were
not selling for care plansbecause they were like right in
between a care plan and a growthstyle plan.
But yours is.
So I would think, and what Isee typically with three tiers
(28:20):
is that most people either gofor the top tier or they're just
like well, I'll just pay thebare minimum.
What makes people choose thebasic plan that you have for 65
over the economy plan for 40?
Cami MacNamara (28:31):
Because my thought would be that most
clients are like okay, becauseI'm giving them, I'm giving them
the deluxe one for their freemonth, right?
And so I I give them the deluxe.
I give them both deluxe andbasic as the report.
So like, here's what you getwith basic, here's what you get
(28:52):
with um deluxe and with theeconomy you don't get the report
.
And I think they see the report, they want the report, they go.
In that instance the basicbecomes the lower level gotcha,
that's genius.
Josh Hall (29:07):
Okay, so that once you complete a project, that
little 30-day free trial, youshow them this is what we could
do month to month.
Cami MacNamara (29:13):
And then I imagine that's like, yeah, I
would love to have that month tomonth and I think that they see
like, oh, a backup every thevirus scan every day and she
updated like 14 plugins.
You know that report reallyshows them the value of having
somebody do that.
Josh Hall (29:34):
And, as you and me we know as Managed WP users, the
report goes out and says all theupdates that you did, like you
just mentioned the pluginupdates, the theme updates but
we do that in bulk in ManageWPas I'm sure you do as well to
where you could do bulk updatesacross all the sites.
So for the client it looks likeyou individually did that, but
(29:54):
they don't need to know thatyou're doing this in an
automated way, in an efficientway that does things in bulk,
which is how you're able tomanage over 200 sites.
Cami MacNamara (30:04):
Yeah, and I guess I'm still old school with
it.
I still go into each update andsee who needs it and I try to
decide it's going to be okay.
A lot of updates.
I will update only my websitefirst and make sure it works, so
I probably spend a little moretime doing those automated
(30:25):
updates.
I never just click the buttonand have them all go, so I do it
on Mondays and Thursdays eachweek, so I'm not doing it every
single day, but they see theconsistency on their report in
terms of having updates done and, like I said, wordpress has so
many updates these days.
(30:47):
It just you know it is reallyballooned compared to what it
was in the early days.
Josh Hall (30:53):
Yeah, I recommend and echo that same process where
you update your stuff first ormaybe be like a couple of
example sites that would youknow would require some updates,
and then you can roll it out.
Cami MacNamara (31:03):
Yeah, Especially like with gravity forms and
some of the plugins that I havehad, just like you have like, oh
, the next updates coming out inlike four hours, because a
whole bunch of things broke.
Josh Hall (31:15):
So you know, it's always good to test it on your
own first, yeah, yeah, for sure,and I think you and I, um, we,
I imagine we probably follow thesame approach with updates with
WordPress, where there'sthere's three digits, there's a,
you know, there's like onepoint, two, point five, version,
and it's like if the point five, the one on the end, is updated
(31:37):
, that's probably no big deal.
The middle digit is like, let'stest this out.
The middle digit is like, let'stest this out If it goes from
version one to version 2.0,that's like we definitely want.
We don't want to update 200sites from version one to 2.0
for Gravity Forms.
So that's, that's what alwayssaved my butt during those times
.
Cami MacNamara (31:55):
And that's why it's good to be part of
communities like yours, becauseother web designers can like say
hey, fyi, you know, I just didthis update and it broke four
sites.
So you know, I I try to stay incontact with other designers
when some big updates arehappening.
Josh Hall (32:14):
Now I feel like the if it ain't broke, don't fix.
It is probably a part of howyou've been sustainable for so
long and been able to last as anentrepreneur, a solopreneur,
for as long as you have.
I am curious have you done anyadditions to the plan, Like,
have you implemented or thoughtabout term again, privacy
policies?
Are there any other things thatyou've added over the last few
(32:36):
years, especially in the wake ofthings like accessibility and
privacy and optimization and allmy goodness?
Cami MacNamara (32:42):
Not to my plan, but I do subscribe to my web
audit and I have been doing thatfor about three years and I and
I audit clients, websites.
Uh, like I, I kind of have awish list of clients that need a
redesign and I will give them afree audit.
(33:04):
That starts the discussion andI always get a new redesign out
of that.
And so with that audit is allthe accessibility, the SEO, and
it just becomes part of either afull redesign or you know what
you call a an SEO boost or thattype of work where I'm going in
(33:26):
and helping them fine-tune theirwebsite the performance, the
accessibility, the legal pagesand all of that.
So my web audit has been anindispensable tool for me to get
that conversation going with myclients.
Josh Hall (33:43):
Genius.
Do you do that structured inany way?
Do you do it like once aquarter?
Cami MacNamara (33:50):
I have a spreadsheet going.
You know I did do and I postedand you had somebody on last
summer who talked about doingstrategy sessions with their
clients.
I forget her name, but it wasbrilliant or was it Lisa?
About the quarterly strategycalls yes, yeah, so I did that
(34:12):
and I had like it was all.
It was overwhelming Like Ibooked three days, I only had.
I only had one day open andwithin three hours they were all
taken, so I had to add two moredays and I quickly learned that
well, okay, I need to do thisdifferently.
I can't send it to all myclients in my newsletter at one
(34:34):
time it was super effective andI used that strategy Like, okay,
let's do an audit, let's meetback and go over that, and from
that I think I earned about Idon't know $12,000 in redesigns
just last summer.
Josh Hall (34:51):
Oh, that's awesome, I need to make sure we relay this
to Lisa.
She would love to hear how.
Cami MacNamara (34:56):
Yeah, it was great.
Josh Hall (34:58):
This is so great, kami.
This is one reason I lovehaving Web Designer Pros on the
podcast is because I don't hearabout all this often, unless you
would happen to you know, postit or you know, let me know.
So this is really cool because,yeah, that talk we did last
year with Lisa, which was atraining, also in Web Designer
Pro, to hear how that played outfor you, is really cool.
(35:19):
And look, most people aremanaging like 12 to 20 clients,
200 plus.
I totally see how your spotswould be filled very fast.
Cami MacNamara (35:28):
And I think it's also something to note for
experienced web designers whomight be listening that you know
, just because you'reexperienced doesn't mean you
can't learn something new, andevery time I'm part of your
group or listening to one ofyour podcasts with somebody who
might just be starting out orhasn't been in business as long
(35:50):
as I have, that does not meanthey don't have something to
teach me, and so I have reallyappreciated all of the
interviews and things that youdo on your podcast, just because
it's helped me learn new, newthings as a seasoned web
designer.
Josh Hall (36:08):
That's great feedback .
Kami Does your.
So are you doing quarterlystrategy calls as a plan no I?
Cami MacNamara (36:15):
didn't, then I haven't been able to do it since
.
Josh Hall (36:18):
Got it.
Cami MacNamara (36:18):
But, as I said, I kind of do outreach as the
clients come into me and I keepa spreadsheet of who I know
needs.
Like I have a list of peoplewho need redesigns this year and
instead of doing the outreachthat I did before, I'm just
going to reach out individuallyso I can control that influx of
interest.
Josh Hall (36:39):
Are you doing anything else to stay top of
mind, other than the monthlyreports that go out?
Do you have a monthlynewsletter?
Cami MacNamara (36:45):
I have a monthly newsletter and I have been
doing that since 2018.
It's become a huge part of mybusiness.
Back when my parents were alivemy clients I was always
educating them about my mom anddad, and when I went to their
home, they had no internet and Ihad to drive to Starbucks in
town they're, you know, everymorning at like 430 and get work
(37:10):
done and, and so I and I toldmy clients you know, I really
only need you to get in touchwith me for dire emergencies,
because I really need to bepresent with my parents, and
they were so understanding andif I didn't do that newsletter
once a month, they were like,hey, I didn't hear about your
folks, how are they?
And so it really brought uscloser and so I do a newsletter
(37:34):
once a month for my clients.
I also will throw themsomething that if there's an
emergency with a hostingsituation, I will send
information out to them as well.
Josh Hall (37:45):
Cause I do offer hosting.
Cami MacNamara (37:47):
It's just not part of my website, Like that's
something that I offer um in theprocess of getting to know the
client, am I going to be a good,are they going to be a good fit
for me to manage their hosting?
Or I'm steering them to thehosting that I want them to be
in, but they're in their ownaccount, so I kind of keep that
under wraps.
Josh Hall (38:06):
So hosting is not a part of your care plans.
Cami MacNamara (38:09):
It's not.
It's a separate line item thatI do kind of without it being
public on my website.
I don't want people reachingout to me for website hosting
only.
I only offer website hosting toclients and specifically most
clients that I've built theirwebsites, so I know I'm not
(38:30):
going to have a lot of problemswith hosting.
Josh Hall (38:34):
Would you take on?
Or if you had a client that youdesigned a site for and they
wanted to take their hosting toa terrible host?
We don't need to name namesunless we want to.
Yeah, would you do a care planfor them on terrible hosting, or
would you deny that?
Cami MacNamara (38:50):
Well, we have a talk about that.
Most of my clients take myadvice right and I honestly have
not been in that situation.
The situation is usually theopposite.
They come to me on terriblehosting and I go ahead and take
them in and you know, it isn'tlong before I can show them that
they have terrible hostingbecause now they're getting
(39:12):
their care plan and maybe I'llturn on the performance piece
for one report and just say, hey, you know, I saw this and I
wanted to share it.
I do customize those reportssometimes and not send everybody
out at the same time and I'llgo in and put my pitch in the
report, and so I'm prettysuccessful at getting them to
(39:36):
move.
Josh Hall (39:37):
Gotcha, that makes sense.
Yeah, it's always a bigquestion I get is yeah, should I
take on that client that goesto a host where we're like, oh,
because it's very hard tomaintain a website when the
foundation is rocky, right, butyou know what?
Cami MacNamara (39:51):
Sometimes you end up being a hero in that
situation.
So I took on a client who has a6,000 page, very popular beer
blog here in Washington stateand um, I will not name the
hosting company that they wereat, but it was a nightmare for
him and for me, and after aboutthree months I'm like look, we
(40:13):
need to get you a new hosting.
He moved to the host of mychoice.
He's never been happier, and soyou know, that is the kind of
story I want my clients to tellother people and that's what
leads to referrals.
Josh Hall (40:28):
Great point, great great point.
When, real quick, to backtrackon your monthly reports in your
newsletter.
Do you stagger those?
When do you send those?
Do you like, do you do your?
Cami MacNamara (40:40):
Monthly report goes out on the first or the
second and the newsletter goesout on the 10th.
Josh Hall (40:47):
So you know, that's kind of my another, another
great strategy yeah, because youwouldn't want the monthly
report and the newsletter go outlike in the day of each other.
Cami MacNamara (40:57):
So yeah, and if I, if I make the newsletter go
too long in the middle of themonth, I'm never quite hitting
that.
So it just I don't know why itworks, but it does.
Josh Hall (41:08):
Gotcha, do you ever lead with your care plans for
selling, or is it usually a newwebsite design?
Cami MacNamara (41:16):
Yeah, I have a handful of people who come to me
looking just for a care plan,and they're usually a referral
from someone.
So somebody comes in and I willuh, these days I make them uh
go through an audit first, so Iwill charge them for an audit
that gives me a look under thehood to tell me if one they are
(41:37):
hacked, or two, if I want towork with it and over the years
I.
I work with beaver builder nowbut but in my career I've worked
with Dibby Elementor.
Just kind of a wide range ofdifferent page builders or just
straight up, you never know,what you're getting Like
(41:58):
somebody's website could beclassic editor in Aveda or you
know it's in Infold or just youknow people go way back.
They're still in WP Bakery,those kinds of things, and if I
feel like I'm going to be ableto work this into a redesign,
I'll take them.
Yeah.
Josh Hall (42:18):
Got it.
I was just about to ask aboutyour tool stack and whether you
would take on sites that havedifferent themes, or something
like that.
Cami MacNamara (42:25):
As long as I get a peek under the hood first,
I'll do it and I have said noright.
I'm like you know, this just istoo heavy.
I'm not huge into WooCommerceLike I do small WooCommerce
sites, but if I get in and it'sa very complicated setup I have
a lot of colleagues and I referto my colleagues.
(42:47):
So I am I that givers gain forBNI.
That's a huge part of my lifeand I have colleagues for
Shopify, e-commerce.
You know big e-commerce, thattype of thing, so I'll pass that
person on to somebody else.
I never leave somebody withouta referral to somebody else if
(43:09):
they come to me and I'm not agood fit.
I also think that is a verygood rule to have as a designer,
because no matter who thatperson is and if you work with
them or not, you want them tohave that good story to tell
about you.
Josh Hall (43:26):
So many good business lessons in this.
I also love your approach ofnon-sleazy upsells.
This is how I view the wayyou'll take somebody on and
recommend better hosting or adifferent theme or a redesign,
like you're doing a lot ofthings that are very clever,
upsell, upsells in in the way,without saying like, oh, we
(43:47):
don't touch that, we don't dothat, and then obviously it's
working.
And I do love that you have anhonest and integral approach on
like not doing that, or we don'ttouch that, and obviously it's,
it's served you well, mostimportantly for sustainability.
Um.
Cami MacNamara (44:01):
I owe that to my parents.
Josh Hall (44:03):
My parents were great Credit is deal.
Have you had any waves ofgrowth with your plan?
Have you ever had months wherethere's just a ton of people
that signed up, or has it alwaysbeen pretty steady up and to
the right over the last?
Cami MacNamara (44:18):
10 years.
You know it's pretty steady.
There are ebbs and flows in, Ithink, people reaching out for
web design, definitely duringCOVID.
I didn't see as many signups orI didn't do as many websites
during COVID and was relying onredesigns.
(44:39):
And I did get a few newprojects, but only after things
started to lighten up in termsof you know, regulations and
stuff like that.
But it was also a busy timehelping people put the banners
on their websites and I gaveeveryone a 50% discount on
(45:00):
anything they needed.
That right after the shutdownand I had a couple clients reach
out and say they couldn'tafford their care plan anymore
and I just said you know what,no worries, it's on me for the
next 12 months.
And then you just tell me howyou're doing after that.
Josh Hall (45:15):
Oh wow, that's awesome.
Cami MacNamara (45:16):
That went a long way.
So sometimes you know whenyou're understanding and can be
giving, it will come back to youunderstanding and can be giving
.
Josh Hall (45:26):
it will come back to you.
What about ongoing churn rate?
How do you have any backupplans or like, or strategies or
templates or scripts for whensomebody says we don't really
need the plan or I just don'tunderstand the value?
What's your approach to totrying to keep people on the
plan?
Are you pretty quick to be like, all right, no big deal.
What's your?
Cami MacNamara (45:45):
process.
I'll be honest, that doesn'thappen.
I don't have that happen.
I think I'm giving I'm givingthem enough value that it
doesn't happen.
I will have clients uh, stepdown from it when they retire,
like I.
I lose clients when they closetheir business, um, or
occasionally when they selltheir business and that person
(46:08):
already has somebody in place.
But outside of that one littletime frame during COVID, I do
not have people cancel theircare plan and maintain their
business with me.
I think it's my pricing thatmakes that happen.
Think it's my pricing thatmakes that happen.
So because I'm modestly pricedor moderately priced, it's not
(46:30):
killing them to have thatpayment every month.
Josh Hall (46:37):
Yeah, the baseline.
I learned this with the newstructure of Web Designer Pro.
When we launched the tiersrecently, I realized that a lot
of people were dropping out whenit was just $200 a month and
that was the only option.
A lot of people were churningand dropping simply because it
was just out of their pricerange, especially for new
designers.
And now what I've realized withthe courses tier which, at the
(46:59):
time of recording this, is only50 bucks a month, 49 a month
what I've realized is like,similar to you, I've tried to
make a no brainer, low barrierrecurring revenue option.
That way, you know, unless theyjust don't want, unless they
just don't move forward orunless they're, you know, for
some reason not gettingsomething from it, there's no
(47:21):
reason not to have access to thecourses in the pro podcast feed
and the couple other bonusesthat people get in the courses
tier.
So I've learned the power ofthat too by just having a low
end offer.
That is a base recurringrevenue.
It may not be the mainrecurring revenue, but it's a
base.
Cami MacNamara (47:37):
Yeah, I think it's helpful.
It's like when you playMonopoly.
There were the people whoalways just wanted park place
and boardwalk and that's allthey were going for.
Meanwhile, I'm over here on thesaint charles place side and
I've got a hotel on every sideand it's not the highest price,
it's not the lowest, but youknow people, um, people are
(47:59):
always landing there, right yeah, a lot of really smart things
we've covered here.
Josh Hall (48:05):
Cammy, cammy, care that's such a great term that
you have for your plan.
Cami MacNamara (48:10):
One of my clients came up with that it
wasn't me, so isn't that how thebest names come to play?
Josh Hall (48:17):
I mean you.
You probably saw some of mydivi tutorials and stuff.
I was known as the the yoda ofdivi for years.
Oh, that's great.
Somebody just called me that inmy facebook group.
They were like you are reallythe yoda of divi.
And years Somebody just calledme that in my Facebook group.
They were like you are reallythe Yoda of Divi.
And I was like oh, I was likeashamed of myself as a Star Wars
fan Cause.
I was like how the hell did Inot come up with that?
But also I'm completely takingthat and ripping that off.
Cami MacNamara (48:36):
So yes, completely.
I have one client who a coupleof years ago, was signing me up
with a user account on her ownand she sent it to me and it was
Cammie in my corner was myusername and I thought that was
great too.
Josh Hall (48:52):
Well, this has been great, Cammie.
A lot of really great thingscovered here Solid business
principles that can be appliedto not only support plans but
growth plans, and just, I really, really enjoy your approach to
to serving clients the way youdo.
I know it's very personal, Iknow it's very genuine and
integral and, um, I think you'rea shining beacon of hope for
(49:15):
people who want to do this fordecades.
Cami MacNamara (49:18):
Uh, you've really well thank you, and I
just I have to tell you how muchI've enjoyed your group and I
get so much out of your podcast.
I listened to it a lot causeI've enjoyed your group and I
get so much out of your podcast.
I listen to it a lot becauseI'm walking in my neighborhood
all the time and someday I'mgoing to finish your course.
Josh Hall (49:35):
Which one Scale or business.
Cami MacNamara (49:38):
I'm just doing your basic course right now and
then you know, but I it's worthevery penny to be a member and
you know I'm in the communitylevel.
I really.
You know I'm not in there asoften as I would like to be, but
when I am I really enjoyed itand I think you have a great
group Happy to be a part of it.
Josh Hall (49:58):
Oh well, thank you, kami.
You are a huge part of it andagain, you know this.
This conversation is really.
It's going to prompt me torecommend that everyone check
out Kami's site, just with withwhat you're doing, because I
think a lot of people right noware veering away from don't give
(50:26):
up your support plans because,as you well know and a lot of
people find this out the hardway people turn on and off
marketing plans and they'll rampup and down additional work and
retainers, but you don't wantthem to veer away from your
ongoing support, your baserecurring revenue.
So you are just a good exampleof that.
Cami MacNamara (50:45):
Well, thank you.
And a maintenance plan isn'tjust for them, it's for me and
because, if their plugins areupdated and you know everything
is being monitored, it's a loteasier to clean up a hack that
you find the day after ithappens than one that's been
going on for eight months.
(51:06):
And you know for those who havebeen in business long enough,
know you know one or two hacksin a month can be very
disruptive to your workflow.
So I look at it like they'reenrolling in a care plan and
it's a benefit to me as well asit is to them.
Josh Hall (51:23):
One final question here for you, cammie, but real
quick, you have.
I'm going to make sure we linkyour site, of course, so people
can see your plan live, but youare also in the business of.
We're not even in the business,but you're helping other web
designers.
I love that.
You're really active and pro.
And then also just the widerWordPress community when would
you like folks to go?
You've got a couple differentbrands, so tell us about what
(51:45):
you're up to as far as wherefolks can go to connect with you
and learn more from you.
Cami MacNamara (51:56):
Sure.
So in 2018, I started aFacebook group called Web Cami
Cafe.
That's basically just webdesigners who are personal
friends, but also it's grown andI have 180 people in there.
It's really kind of anetworking group and a support
group.
We don't have any structuredposting, we just communicate
with each other.
So that's one place to checkout.
And at webcammiecafecom, I'vebeen blogging about running my
(52:17):
business since 2018.
What grew from that is lastyear I started a newsletter and
it's called web designer habitsand it's at web designer
habitscom.
Once a week, I send a small,tiny habit to work on in your
business, because I trulybelieve that the best way to
(52:38):
manage your business is one tinyhabit at a time.
That way, you're notoverwhelmed with trying to adopt
too many things.
So those are two places peoplecan check me out.
Josh Hall (52:50):
I can't believe that you got that domain name and you
didn't have to pay a premium.
I'm still shocked thatwebdesignershabitscom was
available.
Cami MacNamara (52:58):
Yeah, no, I have .
I have 180 domain names.
I have a lot of ideas, so a lotof different versions.
I have WP habits and habits WPand you know.
Josh Hall (53:13):
I have?
Cami MacNamara (53:14):
I have quite a few.
Josh Hall (53:15):
It makes sense.
You've been at it, you know,since early thousands, so you
know again a lot of ideas thatyou want to make sure you you
get the headstart on so that'sright.
Last quick question here, kamiwhat is probably the best sales
tip for selling a maintenanceplan that you've learned?
You've sold over.
You know hundreds now.
So if somebody's either earlyon selling maintenance plans or
(53:38):
just getting started, or maybethey're established but are
finally launching a support plan, what's a selling tip that has
helped you?
Cami MacNamara (53:45):
Well, I'm a firm believer in the trial, the free
month.
I really believe that it'sgreat because you're going to be
following up with that customerafter you launch the website.
Anyway.
I do like a 30-day and 90-daycheck-in with every website or
redesign that I build.
But I really think that thatfree trial and giving them both
(54:07):
the deluxe and the basic versionis your foot in the door.
They see the value and it'shard for them to understand what
is a maintenance plan, what isa care plan, until they actually
see the report.
Because they don't understandhow WordPress works.
You know that's that's for usto understand, so it's a great
(54:29):
communication point with them.
Josh Hall (54:32):
Gaby, this has been awesome.
I really have enjoyed chattingwith you and then getting a.
And behind the scenes or behindthe what am I looking for
Behind the curtain, behind thescenes approach to seeing how
this works?
Cami MacNamara (54:45):
It's really nice and I hope that you're going to
be at WordCamp US this year.
And you know, I hope it worksout for you, and if it doesn't
work out this year, I'm alwaysgoing to be at WordCamp US.
So I'm sure our paths willcross again.
Josh Hall (54:59):
That is the plan.
It's penciled in.
It is penciled in TravelingGosh, I wish there's just no, I
don't think there's any directflights from Columbus, so it's
like a full day of travel withour current season of having
three kids under six.
Yeah, like a couple of daysaway is cool, but, man, once we
get past three or four days it'stough.
Cami MacNamara (55:20):
So that time frame is a little odd to right
at the end of August for parents.
So for me it's easy it's athree-hour drive.
Josh Hall (55:30):
Yeah, well, I'm hoping I was going to say yeah,
I know you came out east lasttime.
Cami MacNamara (55:35):
I did I try to make them tall?
I first went to WordCamp US in2018 as part of GoDaddy's team.
I was their first proambassador and I will.
I will go from now on.
It's too much fun.
Josh Hall (55:50):
Yeah Well, you're a great example of what makes
WordPress great too.
Just, uh, it's just good folk,it's good people.
So, yeah Well, cammie, thankyou so much.
I'm going to.
I can't wait to share this withthe world.
I'll see you in pro and, uh, Ithink the biggest congrats is 10
years.
Congrats on 10 years here soonfor your plan.
Cami MacNamara (56:11):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (56:11):
Thank you, it's, it's , uh, it feels good.
Awesome, kami.
Well, thank you so much, uh,until next time.
Really appreciate your time.
Cami MacNamara (56:17):
Thanks again.
Josh Hall (56:20):
Full of gold, this combo.
I really hope you enjoyed thisone as much as I did having it
with Kami.
I love learning from folks whohave been in this industry for a
long time and Kami, as Imentioned on the outset of this,
she's done it right, shiningexample of how to have a
sustainable business.
I'm sure you have loads oftakeaways.
I would love to hear some ofthose.
(56:41):
I'm sure Kami would as well.
You can drop us a comment forthe show notes at this episode,
which are going to be atjoshhallco slash 371.
And my encouragement to you isthat, whether you are a new web
designer or an established webdesigner, take Kami's lead and
just be a good web designer toyour clients and that's the
(57:02):
magic.
You will get leads, you willgrow your business, you will
build referral partners.
You will get leads, you willgrow your business, you will
build referral partners.
You will grow your MRR.
Things compound over time, justlike they have for Kami and now
managing over 200 sites on hermaintenance plan.
So what an inspiration.
Big thanks to Kami for takingtime and for being here to share
with you what she's learned toget to this point in her journey
(57:23):
.
So again, show notes joshhallcoslash 371.
Go check out Kami's website atwebkamicom and be sure to sign
up for her new web designerhabits newsletter, which you can
find at her website webkamicom,also linked over at joshhallco
slash 371.
Stay subscribed.
Web designer friends, moreawesomeness a coming.
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