March 31, 2025 • 51 mins
Ok web designer – tell me if this sounds familiar…
You sign on a new client for a website project!
But then, they send you their atrocious logo…
Now what?
- Do you design the website based on their terrible logo/existing brand?
- Do you try to upsell an unexpected logo/brand package?
- Do you pause the website project and tell them to hire a new logo designer first?
This is a very common challenge for web designers but there is a solution!
Repeat guest and branding expert Jamie Starcevich has really dialed in a nifty solution for this situation which is, in short, to offer a “Light Branding Package.” In this chat, we get into all the details of how to offer it, what constraints to put on it, how much to charge for it and more!
Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/373
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jamie Starcevich (00:00):
But for this type of package I would
personally, I would not go undera thousand but you could also
do something like what you saidof like, just include this in
your package and just say thisis a part of it.
Right, if you're going to offerthis kind of brand refresh and
you already are doing that inyour process, maybe you don't
need to change your pricing, ormaybe this is an opportunity to
(00:22):
increase it and say, like, callit what it is, that you're
already doing this right?
Welcome to the Web DesignBusiness Podcast, with your host
, josh Hall, helping you build aweb design business that gives
you freedom and a lifestyle youlove.
Josh Hall (00:41):
Hey, my web designer friend, now I know I'm not alone
in this situation.
Let me lay the context here.
You get a website project andyou're about ready to move
forward.
You're all excited to start anew design and then the client
sends you an absolutely shitlogo and now you're left in a
bit of a pickle, because you candesign a whole site around this
(01:03):
terrible branding, or you cantry to upsell your client to a
logo and full branding packagethat maybe they weren't
anticipating, or, worse yet, youneed to stall the website
because maybe you don't do logoor branding design and you need
to hire that out before you cando any do the website.
This is really common, but I'mso excited to tackle what to do
in this situation with a repeatguest on the podcast.
(01:25):
This is Jamie Starchevich, whoI would consider a true branding
, logo and typography expert.
She has been in this world fora long time as a freelancer and
has come up with a very, veryunique solution to this problem
by offering what she calls alight branding package, which is
literally what you can offerwhen you're in this situation.
(01:47):
So that's what we're going todive into in this one exactly
how to offer this, where to evenprice it and, again, very, very
common.
So you're not alone if this hashappened to you, and that's
what we're going to help youwith, and this one.
You can find more about Jamie bygoing to her website spruce
roadcom that is spelled S P R UC E R Dcom, and she is very
(02:07):
active on as well active ish onInstagram, as you'll hear.
Um, so go to the show notes forthis episode to connect with
her and get all the resourcesand links we mentioned, because
we do talk about some additionalresources here that she has for
you to help you.
Uh, you can go to joshhallcoslash three seven 373 to get all
those All right without furtherado.
(02:28):
Here is Jamie.
Well, jamie, it is so good toreconnect and have you back on.
Did you say you were episode 50?
Is that right?
Jamie Starcevich (02:40):
I was around there.
Yeah, it's so fun to be, to beback in it.
Uh, what are we at now?
300 something.
Josh Hall (02:46):
Yeah, you will be.
Let me look at the schedulehere.
You'll be three.
Unless this changes, you'll bethree, uh 73.
So, uh, yeah, it's been.
It's been a few years, a fewyears, few kiddos later for each
of us, and we're still cooking.
Jamie Starcevich (03:03):
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Josh Hall (03:07):
What have you been doing since we chatted last,
have you?
You know, you've had, I think,a couple.
I think you have made maybe onekid when we talked last, or
maybe two, and then, yeah, we'veboth been busy being parent,
printers and everything.
So what have you been doinglike the last five years or so?
Jamie Starcevich (03:22):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Definitely, kids are the mainchange in my life.
I have three boys and theoldest is eight, six and three,
and so I kind of hybrid likework from home, mom, stay at
home, mom, you know, kind of dodifferent hats, you know.
So, like half the week I'm athome with the kids and I
(03:43):
homeschool them, and then theother half of the week I'm
working and then my husband andI just flip-flop those jobs.
So, um, yeah, that's just whatI've been doing still, uh,
designing brands and, um,teaching about design to other
designers.
Josh Hall (04:01):
And I'm kind of curious, did you?
Did you have that in mind whenyou thought about building your
design business up and being anentrepreneur working from home?
Did you have that in mind to beable to balance that with
motherhood and being a parent,or did you just kind of make it
work?
I'm always curious now, seeingparents who are in it for a
(04:21):
while, how much of this wasplanned and how much of this
just kind of happened and youjust make it work.
Jamie Starcevich (04:26):
I mean kind of a mix of both.
Like it goes back to when I wasin college.
I was studying architecture andthen just saw like, okay, if
you're going to be an architect,maybe it's different in reality
.
I don't know.
It just seemed like a ton ofhours and I was like, even at
age what 20, I was like, well,one day I want to have kids and
so I switched to graphic designbecause that seemed like more of
(04:47):
a family-friendly field to gointo.
And it has been, which has beenawesome.
I never thought I would startmy own business, as many
business owners say, but here Iam and it's been such a blessing
to our family and, yeah, it'sjust worked out.
It's been a really great fit.
Josh Hall (05:05):
That's awesome.
It's kind of cool to talk withyou.
Yeah, literally nearly fiveyears.
I was just looking it was 2020.
It was shortly after COVID thatwe actually chatted the first
time, so nearly five years later.
So to see you on this end, towhere it's still working for you
and you're still managing thelifestyle balance.
It's actually it's anunanticipated.
(05:25):
Cool thing about this show istalking with folks like yourself
, who I haven't seen in a while,to see, like where we're at now
and how our businesses haveevolved or how they've stayed
exactly the same, which meanslike we were onto something from
the get go, which is prettycool.
Jamie Starcevich (05:38):
Yeah, I mean like different.
There's been like somedifferences, but overall I just
feel like it's really beensustainable, which has been my
goal of like I never wantburnout, you know, and so
working like two days a week, Ijust don't feel burnt out, and
any parent with kids at homeknows like it's actually easier
for me to work than to be athome with the kids sometimes,
(05:59):
you know, as far as like theintroverted me is like this is
nice, I'm just at my computer,you know a little quiet.
So it's been a good balance andsuper sustainable.
Yeah, I've enjoyed it.
Josh Hall (06:11):
What are some of the changes that you've made to
evolve the business to make sureyou're able to just keep a
lighter work schedule time wise?
Jamie Starcevich (06:19):
Yeah, so one main thing is that I do branding
and over the last few yearsI've really stopped working with
a lot of new clients and I'vejust worked with mainly one
client we do design days, soevery single week it's like
predictable nice schedule ofevery single week we do that.
(06:39):
And then I've shifted my designfocus to be more on typography,
which we're going to chat abouta little bit today, just
because I love type and it'ssomething that's even goes back
into my roots of like mygrandfather was a typesetter,
pre-computers doing like theletterpress and everything like
that.
So, yeah, I've just reallyloved diving into typography
(07:02):
from like a standpoint that'snot super technical, like I'm
not a type type designer, Idon't design fonts but I use
them for clients, and so I lovekind of chatting about that kind
of stuff more with my designcommunity.
Josh Hall (07:16):
So you stripped down to more like VIP day style just
to keep a consistent scheduleand pipeline with.
Jamie Starcevich (07:22):
Oh yeah, I was doing that when we last talked
five years ago, I think I hadmaybe just started doing it and
I've done like 500 days sincethen, probably, and you're on
the summit coming up, which Idon't know when this is being
produced.
It might be after, um, but thesimply profitable designer
summit, right, yeah, or I didn'trealize.
(07:42):
Are you speaking there too?
I am, I just saw you on there.
You're a sponsor, which isawesome.
That's my topic is, for that isthe repeat design days awesome.
Josh Hall (07:51):
Okay, yeah, this is going to come out, I think right
after that, maybe a week or twoafter it, but uh, that's really
cool.
I didn't actually just today Iwas going to look at the list
and start to promote it, so, uh,that's really cool.
I love to see that you're kindof re-engaging on this end of
things.
So did you keep your own designcommunity and your email list
and your resources for designers?
(08:13):
Have you kept that going kindof quietly and kind of
re-emerging with that, neil?
What's that look like for you?
Jamie Starcevich (08:18):
Yeah, it's just been on my email list, so
that's another change.
I haven't been like onInstagram and social media,
hardly at all.
I've just kind of not beeninterested, quite frankly.
Josh Hall (08:31):
You look nice and refreshed and happy, so it must
be working.
Jamie Starcevich (08:33):
Thank you, yeah, and no discredit to anyone
who does that.
It just was in a season in mylife where I was like I need a
break from that and it felt niceand just fits with kind of my
business model anyways, to justkeep on going with like the
newsletter.
And it felt nice and just fitswith kind of my business model
anyways, to just keep on goingwith like the newsletter and
then occasionally doing thingslike this where we will swap,
you know kind of meet up withother entrepreneurs and get in
(08:56):
front of their audience and thenyou know they'll get in front
of mine, type of thing.
So yeah, Awesome.
Josh Hall (09:01):
Well, the big thing of, I mean a lot of topics we
could dive into, but you do havekind of a specialty with
typography and with branding.
There's a really common issuewith web designers that we
really haven't, you know, kindof drilled into here on the show
, which is a client comes to youand their brand is terrible,
(09:21):
and then there's really twooptions, although I think we're
probably going to hit on thisthird option.
The options are like you do youstart with branding and do a
full blown digital rehaul oftheir logo, their design
elements, their guidelines,their fonts, everything, and
then do the website eventually.
Or you just build a websitewith a terrible logo and it
(09:42):
affects everything downhill.
But I think you've struck kindof a sweet spot with this idea
of like a what, like a lightbrand or a almost like a big, a
basic style package that may bea little typography.
So, yeah, I'd love to hear thatLike what, what, what you see
working with that and howdesigners, web designers in
particular, could almost offerlike a light branding package in
(10:04):
those scenarios.
Jamie Starcevich (10:05):
Yeah, I was wondering if I was going to
bring up the elephant in theroom or if you were about like
how clients come to you for webstuff and they're almost like
sometimes they don't even knowthey need you to bridge that gap
.
Right, they just come and say Ineed a website and you're like
actually like you need more, youmore.
And so you have to have thatconversation.
(10:26):
Or maybe it's like their cousindesigned their logo and they
think they have branding, butthey're missing a lot of key
things like what's theirtypography look like, what color
are they using, Things likethat.
And so a lot of web designersend up kind of bridging that gap
, whether they make their clientaware of that or not.
Right, Like because they haveto.
(10:47):
To build a website, you have topick fonts somehow, you have to
pick colors and things like that, and so, yeah, I love to just
dive into about like adding thatinto your process.
There's a few ways you can dothat.
One way is like a discoveryphase.
Do you kind of talk about likediscovery phase with web
designers?
Yeah, for sure, Especially ifit's like a discovery phase.
Do you kind of talk about likediscovery phase with web
designers?
Josh Hall (11:07):
Yeah for sure, Especially if it's like a
qualified lead to where, duringthat initial call, it's usually
discovery in the way of like thebrand, the goals of the website
and stuff which inevitably isgoing to lead to what they have
currently Like.
Do they have a current site andthen inevitably you look at the
brand, Right?
So yeah, absolutely.
I feel like it all starts withthat.
Jamie Starcevich (11:29):
Yeah.
So I think for brand designers,discovery phase is for clients
that have actually booked yourservices.
So it's not like a consultationcall.
It's the first step and I lovethis part of the process because
it helps me as a designerbefore I actually start like
sketching or which I'm not goodat illustrating, but before I
start like actually going intoillustrator and designing things
(11:51):
.
Like I get almost like acheckoff for my client of like
this is the direction we'regoing and that can take a few
different forms, but you can dolike a style tile showing like
these are the fonts and thecolors and like photo style or
whatever it may be, pull assetsthat they already have.
It could be like a mood boardor something like that, but
basically getting them to checkoff on like the style before you
(12:14):
actually start designing thesite or the brand, and so I love
bringing in typography intothat part of the process before
you get too deep into it.
Josh Hall (12:26):
So real quick.
There is a bit of a distinction, I feel like, between a
discovery call with before theybecome a client, like before
they pay you, versus after theypay you, and then for me I call
that a strategy call becauseit's a little more like now
you're a paid client, Now we'reactually talking nitty gritty
and details, because it's alittle more like okay, now
you're a paid client, Now we'reactually talking nitty gritty
(12:46):
and details.
But I am curious on the likebefore they pay you.
I imagine you probably want toidentify the brand where the
brand's at pretty quick, right,Because you're right, you don't
want somebody to pay you and belike oh, by the way, you
desperately need a new logo fora lot of reasons.
Jamie Starcevich (13:02):
Oh, yes, definitely, yeah, yeah, so I
think it could be just differentterminology.
I come from like.
I worked at an agency for alittle bit like freelancing and
they called it the discoveryphase and it was a lot of like
strategy and things like that.
But the consultation call iswhat I call like that first one
before clients paid you anything.
And that's when I'm having thatconversation like Like what do
(13:24):
you want, what do you need?
And then for like the web stuff, that's when you would say like
hey, I noticed like you coulduse or benefit from however you
want to phrase it reallytactfully like new branding or
like do you have branding?
And that's when you have thatconversation.
Josh Hall (13:39):
Then yeah, I totally agree.
So let's say that we identify aneed.
I think the real question is,as we all know, especially as
web designers, branding can beif you don't control it.
So, yeah, how do we like, Iguess, how do you contain
(14:09):
branding?
That's the real question.
Jamie Starcevich (14:11):
Yeah, so there's a lot of ways I feel
like we're in 2025 and there'slike totally like new ways to
approach branding than therewere back then.
You know, but I do make a livingwith branding and have for
years and and like our basepackage was like $5,000.
So I know what you mean of likeit can include a lot of things
right, strategy, it can eveninclude like communication,
(14:35):
parts of it, icons, patterns,like the whole gamut really.
You can define what that is.
But what I love about whatwe're going to talk about today
is like type-based brands andyou can create like some form of
this for your web packages.
That's like a light brandingalmost for your clients and just
make them aware of what that is, and don't call it like we're
(14:56):
going to create a fully customillustrated logo.
It's like just with anythinglike have clear, transparent
communication, and so like alight, type-based brand could
include like a logo that's justtype-based and make it clear
you're not like customizing thatunless you want to, which you
totally can, and then thetypography suite that goes with
(15:16):
that.
Josh Hall (15:18):
What would be in the typography suite Is that just
like fonts, typeface headings,kind of like the bare bones of
what you would put on a websiteand copy?
Jamie Starcevich (15:28):
Yes, for sure, Like you would need to have the
hierarchy set like the headlinecopy, like the headline type
style, along with like the callto action button and then like
the subhead and body copy anddescriptor text, whatever it may
be.
Whenever I design brands, Ialways like to use it in context
.
So for web design, you wouldalready be doing that right If
(15:50):
you have a finished product thatyou're designing the website
for.
So when creating like atype-based brand, you could show
them, like a landing page, howthat would look in different
type styles.
So, yeah, I think showing it inapplication is really key,
rather than just putting likeheadline type in like a certain
font and then like this is thebody copy or whatever it's like,
actually show like what thiswould be for promotion purposes.
(16:12):
Um, you could even repurposethat into like.
If they're an e-commerce brand,you could show them a sample
like what an insert would looklike for their packaging, um,
things like that, how they woulduse that and other instances
beyond.
Josh Hall (16:25):
Like the website Do you start with the typefaces and
typography first and then dothe logo based off of that, or
since it is a typeface logo, ordo you start with the logo and
figure out the typeface for thatand then move towards the fonts
?
Jamie Starcevich (16:42):
Yeah, I think this is an interesting
conversation.
Like in school I was alwaystaught to like sketch like 50
plus thumbnail sketches of thelogo before doing anything on
the computer.
And then, as I've been adesigner for over 15 years, I
just realized my process is notso linear.
Like I can't just like sketchthe logo, find the logo and then
(17:06):
find in black and white andthen find the type and then put
it in color.
You know I just can't do thatand maybe people are oriented in
that way, but for me I Ihonestly just approach it like
my art board is just wild.
It's like all over the placedifferent kind of options for
like lockups for the logo orlike a sub mark idea I have over
(17:26):
here, and then it just kind ofall comes together at the end.
But I call it like backwardsbranding.
I feel like I often kind ofstart at the end like with the
application in mind and thencause I like typography and I'm
just more inclined in that way,and then I bring in the logo
with that.
But sometimes it's backwards.
Sometimes I have a concept fora logo and that leads to the
(17:47):
type.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, so not a crystal
clear process on that.
Josh Hall (17:53):
I could.
You could start with the logo,or you might start with the
typefaces, and then that couldmake the low what is I mean?
Is the logo basically just yeah, like the chosen typeface
written out, or is thereanything you would do into the
logo that would make thatdifferent from just typing it
onto a page?
Jamie Starcevich (18:10):
Yeah, I think that's up to you.
If you are offering like thisas kind of a light version of
branding for web, especially inthose instances where a client
comes to you and wants a websitebut doesn't necessarily want
like a huge like brandingexpense or whatever it may be,
then you could just type out thelogo.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I just want to put that outthere.
If anyone has apprehensionsabout that, the only thing is to
(18:33):
check licensing.
Some people will say you can'tjust do that for a logo, but a
lot of licenses are open to that.
You can also modify using AdobeIllustrator.
They've made it a lot easier inthe last couple years to modify
type, and so you can dosomething like that too, which I
love doing, just to make it alittle bit more distinctive.
(18:54):
But I don't want that to be abarrier into using type for web
designers.
Josh Hall (19:00):
So by licensing do you mean like if I were to use
like Arial for a typeface for alogo, would there potentially be
trademarks on using that fontfor like an actual company's
logo?
Is that kind of what you meanby checking the legalities of?
Jamie Starcevich (19:15):
that.
Yeah, I don't know about likethe trademark side of it would
be interesting, but more so onthe font license.
So with each font there's alicense and if you go to
especially like indie foundriesthat sell their own typefaces,
they just come up with whateverthey want for their own type
foundry and so some of them willbe like use this however you
(19:38):
want.
And then others are like youcan't use this for logo, you
have to pay extra for that.
But I find that that's morerare.
Usually they're in the the boatof like.
If you can't use this for logo,you have to pay extra for that,
but I find that that's morerare.
Usually they're in the boat oflike if you purchase this
typeface, you can use it howeveryou want.
But I just want to caveat thatI'm like just check you know
before you do that.
Josh Hall (19:55):
Where?
How do you practically?
Is there a site that has likefont licenses?
Where do you check that?
Jamie Starcevich (19:59):
Whenever you download the font, there'll be
it'll say the font license onthere.
So if you're on Adobe CreativeCloud or Monotype or something
like that, like thosesubscriptions I think Google
Fonts as well they don't reallyhave limits on there and they
make that really clear and thenother ones like my Fonts I think
pretty much the same there, butthey'll always have something
(20:22):
that says the font license.
You can click and just checkthat, search for a logo and
you'll see if it says anythingthere.
But they'll always havesomething that says like the
font license.
You can click and just checkthat.
You know, search for a logo andyou'll see if it says anything
there.
Josh Hall (20:29):
Gotcha.
So in this light brandingpackage that we're kind of, you
know, peeling the layers back onhere, we got the typeface logo,
we've got the font, like thehierarchy, the font style, the
main typography and font styles.
The big question is, what aboutthese other common elements for
branding packages?
What about icons?
(20:50):
What about graphic styles?
What about brand guidelines?
How far do these light packagesgo?
Could you create tiers of these, or is that too much?
What else is in the lightbranding package?
Jamie Starcevich (21:02):
Yeah, I mean honestly, you can just do
whatever you're comfortable with.
If you are okay designing icons, by all means add that to your
package, but if that's somethingyou don't want to source or you
don't want to offer, then youdon't have to do that.
I see this as a service forthose clients that come to you
and either have a logo but don'thave anything else, and that's
(21:22):
really common.
Those clients that come to youand either have a logo but don't
have anything else and that'sreally common.
People will buy like a cheaplogo a lot of times, and
sometimes it looks fine but theydon't have anything else to go
with that, and that's whensomething like this would come
in play.
If you can say, okay, let mekind of build something around
that, and that would be thetypography.
I would do like a mini brandguide that does not have to be
(21:43):
elaborate at all, just like thetypography suite that you design
, including like the headlineand body copy and things like
that, and then like a key color,their key brand color, and you
can even do like tints above andbelow that, because that's
helpful with web, like withhovers and things like that.
But, yeah, I think, keep itreally simple for this.
(22:03):
This could be something youoffer on the back end of a
product.
If you have your main packagefor web design and then
occasionally those clients comein the door and you want to test
this out, this does not have tobe on your website.
I'm a big fan of testing thingsout behind the scenes before you
create a sales page and startgetting clients in, before
you've even vetted it theprocess.
(22:26):
So you could even just testthis out behind the scenes, tell
the first potential client itwould be a good fit for on the
consultation call, like hey, Ihave this new service I'm trying
out.
Would you want to try that?
This is what's included, andthen you'll get the process
nailed from there and see ifthis is something you want to
offer as like a tiered serviceor just kind of in those here
(22:46):
and there clients that couldbenefit from that bridge over
from, like I have this logo, butI need more, but I don't need,
like, a full brand and this iswhere that fits in.
Is this more of like a typedriven brand, kind of like a
light version of branding?
So yeah, I think just be clearabout it too.
Josh Hall (23:04):
It's genius.
I wish I would have heard thisa decade ago, because I was kind
of doing this offhand and justin a very messy way.
All web designers typically arewhere a company has a logo but,
yeah, they don't really haveany exact typefaces or
typography, fonts chosen orcolors or elements, so you just
kind of create those as you'rebuilding the website.
(23:25):
And then I've looked back andthought like, oh my gosh, I
could have absolutely eithercharged a lot more as the full
package with some sort of lightbranding.
Even though I wasn't a branddesigner, I did absolutely do
branding on nearly every project.
So in some ways I feel likemost designers are probably
doing this anyway.
Yes, exactly this is probably amatter of, in a lot of ways,
(23:46):
just sticking a label on it andwhether you, I feel like,
whether you, you tell me, jamie,like whether you sell it as an
add-on or an initial upsell, orI would think you could probably
just include this and make ahigher value package and say,
like, well, this is, you know,instead of a $2,000 website,
this is a $5,000 website, butwe're going to include our light
(24:07):
branding, we're going to give,we're going to help you with
your fonts, we're going to helpyou with your elements, and it's
all included.
So I feel like it's a greatlittle way to sell a bigger
package by just offering a lightbranding as a part of it If, if
, when, when needed for thatclient.
Jamie Starcevich (24:30):
Yeah, I agree, I was going to say that I feel
like a lot of web designersalready do this, but they might
not put a name on it or maketheir client aware that they're
doing it, and I think I'm kindof more of a people pleaser, and
so I knew that I fell into thatboat of like I would just do
things the client didn't evenknow I was doing, like it just
needs to be done.
But I feel like this is such agreat way to also get your
client into the process oftaking ownership over their
brand and you including thatinto the discovery phase or
(24:52):
whatever you want to call it,just making it more a part of
the process so that they'reaware this is going on.
They also will see the value init, which is just going to
increase the client experience.
So, yeah, I think it's such agood part of the process and
just something to incorporateeither behind the scenes or just
do this with all your clientsif you're already doing it.
Josh Hall (25:14):
That, and there's nothing worse than having
branding as a hurdle for aproject to move forward.
I remember clients wanting tomove forward and I wanted to
move forward, but their logo isjust so terrible.
I was like I'm not going to putthis on my work.
This is so timely.
By the way, I was literallyjust having a coaching chat and
Web Designer Pro this week aboutthis exact same thing.
(25:35):
The little scenario you listedout earlier is exactly what
happened.
My member got a lead qualitybusiness quality lead but it was
like their sister did the logoand the branding and it was
atrocious.
And she, because it's apersonal thing, she felt weird
about the client.
She's like I don't want to do awebsite with this based off of
this because it's just so bad.
(25:56):
So my advice was, you know,basically in a nutshell, to do
this offer like a slight rebrand, like don't let the website
slip by, don't say like we can'thelp you right now, but offer a
way to maybe use, salvage whatyou can, but just take it to a
different level within thepackage.
But this is just the best wayto package this and say you know
(26:16):
you got a logo, but there's alot of issues with best
practices and in order to builda professional site, we're going
to want to tweak the brand alittle bit, but we don't need to
blow up the whole thing.
We just you know, you can useour light branding package, just
slap it on there.
Normally I want to talk pricingnext, but we you could say,
normally maybe it's a thousand,but this is just going to be
included, we'll take, we'll takethis on as the first phase of
(26:37):
the project and we'll do it foryou.
So, like I, so I feel like thisSomebody could leave this
conversation now and have waymore confidence of having an
offer to literally put on thoseelements of just a light
branding package Real quick,before we talk pricing, though,
what about the logo?
How far are we going withsaving out different font file
(26:57):
extensions?
What would be the deliverablesof a branding package?
And then we got to talk abouthow to price it.
Jamie Starcevich (27:05):
Yeah, well, first of all, I have to say that
was like, if anyone is in thatboat, just like record what Josh
just said.
I feel like that's such atactful way to approach it of
like building in the strategyand just like communicating, for
, like the website of things, wewant to make sure everything
looks good and is like on bestpractices for website.
(27:25):
Um, that's going to be yourbest bet is to like go with
legibility, because a lot oftimes those logos are so
overdone, right, have a lot ofdistractions, and so you can use
those terms to like convincethe client that this is the way
to go.
Josh Hall (27:39):
um, yeah, but what was your question?
How many, how many crappy logosdo we get that have like a
tagline under it and you're likeif you put this on a menu,
you're just going to see twopixel font size.
No one's gonna be able to readthat.
Jamie Starcevich (27:54):
Yeah, that's exactly why type-based brands
are so great too, because I feellike and this could be a whole
other tangent but I just feellike they're so timeless because
there's a lot of trends when itcomes to logos, especially like
illustration styles, not tomention like brands change right
, like their focus might be onone thing one year, five years
later they're doing somethingelse, so the illustration no
(28:14):
longer really applies to them,and so type-based brands I just
love that because they're moretimeless in that way but still
can have a lot of personalityLike fonts really convey a lot
of messaging to clients and tocustomers.
So it's not like you're lackinganything there, but I just
think they work really well forwebsites as well.
They remove those distractions.
(28:35):
But in terms of, like you said,saving out logo files, I
wouldn't get too hung up on that.
The process takes me like 5minutes maybe to save out a logo
file.
Um, you can do whatever you needfor the website svg, png, jpeg,
eps, something like that, umbut you don't need all of the
bells and whistles of like submarks with the tagline.
(28:56):
Without a tagline, you canmaybe just do like a horizontal
and vertical option.
That that's what I wouldrecommend Is.
Josh Hall (29:03):
FedEx, a type led logo.
Like FedEx is notorious forhaving that little little arrow,
which is like one of the mostgenius marketing things.
I remember when I did somenight classes in my community
college it was one was a designbranding class and it was one of
my favorites and they theyshowed us the FedEx logo and
they showed us the arrow and Iwas like, oh my God, I God, I
(29:26):
see it now.
Holy crap, I see the arrow.
Jamie Starcevich (29:29):
Is that an?
Josh Hall (29:30):
example.
Jamie Starcevich (29:32):
That is, but that's definitely next level.
I feel like that's something Ifell into as a designer of, like
every brand needs a hiddenarrow in there or like some
hidden thing.
It just doesn't work.
Josh Hall (29:42):
It looks forced a lot of times, the sea in
Chick-fil-A is a chicken, holycrap.
Jamie Starcevich (29:50):
And those like work out really well.
But I just don't think you needlike a lot of brands are
type-based.
If you just start being moreaware of it, like go in the
packaging aisle at like someboutique store Cause you know
they have like well-designedpackaging and stuff, a lot of
those are type-based brands andso there's nothing wrong with
that.
But I do love a good good,hidden, hidden meaning in a logo
(30:11):
too.
Josh Hall (30:12):
Yeah, but the big thing is like you don't need to,
like you said, draw out 25icons with different styles and
yeah, I mean that's yeah, likethe, the icons especially, or
whatever you want to call it.
I feel like those were.
Most of the work comes intoplay with logo design is when
it's something super custom.
You get into all the vectorstuff and next thing, you know,
you know you got a hundreddifferent options for an icon
(30:34):
and it's like whew, yeah, also ahundred hours into working on
all that.
Jamie Starcevich (30:38):
So it is, and then often, like those logos,
like I said, they get likealmost like rely on these design
distractions is what I callthem.
I do love some good illustratedlogos and we have some in our
portfolio, so I'm not nothingagainst that.
But I think it's hard as adesigner to really peel back
sometimes and just do typographybecause we want to like add,
(31:00):
add, add, add.
Especially when working withclients, it's even more so this
mindset barrier of like they'repaying me I need to add more
stuff, right, but, like I said,there's so much value in just
type-driven brands and that'swhat you see a lot of
professional packaging designsthat are so beautiful.
A lot of them really lean intotypography and compare it down
(31:21):
to that and still have abeautiful, solid, solid and
creative custom brand so webdesigner pro is a type driven
brand.
Josh Hall (31:28):
Right, I don't have like an icon.
Yeah, you did it, I did it.
I've already.
I didn't realize I did it, Idid it, I think I do think
that's how it made a heck of alot easier too, because I didn't
invest in like huge brandingpackage.
I was just like web designerpro, put the pro in the you know
the little rectangle.
We're using the slapping andwhipping sound on this just
(31:49):
because when you package up, youknow a little brand package,
you got it.
Jamie Starcevich (31:53):
It just needs it.
Josh Hall (31:54):
That's the big seller for clients, by the way.
You just say we can add yourbrand package on there, it's on
us, so that makes sense.
Super easy set of deliverables.
I mean gosh, some of mine, I'mthinking, were literally just a
text document and it was likemain font, this font, secondary
font, this main color, thissecondary color, this.
(32:15):
And that was like a very, verycrude, rudimentary brand style
guide.
So, yeah, I imagine that couldbe fairly simple, like I think
your message is like don'toverthink it, don't
overcomplicate it.
Yeah, keep it simple.
Jamie Starcevich (32:31):
I think.
At the same time, I just wantto say it's not lazy.
I just want to say that fortype driven brands, like it's
not lazy.
It actually takes some skill toedit out I feel like more so
than we give ourselves creditfor but at the same time it can
be really easy.
Right, to create small minibrands using only type, I think
(32:52):
can be really easy and fun, butdoesn't mean that it's lazy or
any diminishing part of thebranding process.
Josh Hall (33:01):
Yeah, and to our point so far, it's like it would
be a shame for both parties theclient and for you as the web
designer to not have this option, because you want the client to
get a new website, but you alsodon't want it to look atrocious
.
So this is like the fix, andmaybe I would imagine there's a
time and a place to upsell themfor a bigger brand package,
(33:21):
either immediately or maybeeventually.
Maybe they get their website upand off the ground, they start
making better revenue and thenyou could really talk about a
more full fledged design andbranding package.
But it does seem like theperfect way to just get things
going Because, like I said andyou articulated too, we've
already kind of we're alreadydoing this in a lot of ways.
Jamie Starcevich (33:39):
So yeah, I think so.
And you can definitely refer outbrand designers.
Like I'm a big fan, I'm sureyou are as well like
collaborating with otherdesigners.
But that can either someclients don't want that, they
don't have the budget for it, orthey're not ready for a full
brand rehaul, Like maybe they'rejust kind of wanting a website
up.
You know, now, timing could bean issue with that too, but it
(34:03):
could also be a barrier for youas the web designer of like
you're losing that momentum ofwhat you have, this call with
them or whatever it may be thatthey're ready to go, and then
you're like wait, go to thisother person for a few months
and hope, I hope you come back,you know.
Josh Hall (34:17):
Great point, great point.
Yeah, you you never want a hotlead who has like money that
they're like about ready to payyou to be like.
Actually you hold on to that.
Come back in a few months whenyou get a new logo.
Yeah, Like, get that depositand then do a basic parenting
package to kick it offAbsolutely.
Jamie Starcevich (34:34):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (34:36):
Speaking of money, we got to talk pricing.
So what are some average rangesfor?
You know, we talk at 99 bucks.
Are we talking a thousand Ifyour guys' base package starts
at 5k?
You know, yeah, what are theranges look like?
As far, of course, I imagineyou could, you know, customize
this to to all in, but what arejust some average price ranges
for, like a light brandingpackage?
Jamie Starcevich (34:57):
Yeah, I think you just said it right there
Like people will charge $99.
Isn't there like 99 designs orsomething like that for a logo?
And I just want to say don't dothat.
I don't think that that'sreally valuing it.
But it can go all the way up tolike I've seen brands offer
like $10,000 packages or evenmore than that, and so there's
(35:20):
just this huge wide range.
But for this type of package, Iwould personally I would not go
under a thousand.
But you could also do somethinglike what you said of like just
include this in your packageand just say this is a part of
it.
Right, if you're going to offerthis kind of brand refresh and
you already are doing that inyour process maybe you don't
(35:41):
need to change your pricing.
Or maybe this is an opportunityto increase it and say, call it
what it is that you're alreadydoing this.
So that's another way to do it.
But personally, I wouldn't gounder $1,000 if you're offering
this as an a la carte, add-onkind of package.
But yeah, what do you think,josh?
Josh Hall (35:59):
I agree, yeah, and of course, like you said in the
beginning, it depends on thediscovery call as far as whether
they're good to go and theydon't need any.
Like they've got a style guideyou follow which makes the
colors, but that all bleeds intoeverything else and then you're
(36:28):
really.
You are thinking about moodboards and, even if it's on a
very simplistic level, you arethinking about, well, what does
this look like compared to theircompetitors?
There is a lot, even on asimple level.
There's still a lot of mentalenergy and a lot of design IP
that you're thinking through onthis.
So I totally agree, I wouldnever do it less than a thousand
.
But yeah, just echoing yourpoint, like it's just a part of
(36:48):
the process.
So, instead of takingsomebody's brand styles and
going right into developing andplanning the site, you may say,
well, first phase is nailingthis down and then that's going
to go into the next phase, whichis moving all of the initial
brand styles over to the website.
So, yeah, I like that idea oflike a thousand to probably a
(37:09):
couple thousand.
Honestly, I would try it outwith a thousand.
I think that sounds good, thatsounds like a light package
option and then eventually, ifyou really dial it in, you
probably increase it anymore.
But that also can help you takea project from you know, 6,500
to 7,500.
Just just with that, and again,you don't need it could be a
(37:30):
line item or an add on on onyour proposal or it could just
be phase one of the project.
Jamie Starcevich (37:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to kind of tweak
it and use it for what you needand, like, like you said, it
just depends on the client,because some clients are ready
to rock and roll and then othersjust need that bridge, and so
this is a good solution to helpthem with that and make them
aware of, like, how you cansupport them in that way.
Josh Hall (37:56):
How do you handle revisions on that type of thing,
like if you present, becausethe other big aspect I know that
you're big on is handlingrevisions.
Your first episode, which wasnumber 50 on the podcast, was
how to limit client revisionsand your your one revision
method.
But or was it?
Is it no revision method?
Jamie Starcevich (38:13):
Zero revision yes.
Josh Hall (38:14):
Zero revision.
That's right.
That's right.
Um, do you basically give themlike tight constraints or or how
, yeah, how would we make surethat that doesn't grow legs and
become this revision andfeedback fest?
Jamie Starcevich (38:28):
I like that grow legs.
Yeah, I think it's a part ofthe process, of that discovery
phase, like what I call it thediscovery phase before you start
the design process and gettingthem on board with that, before
you start sending them kind ofthis light branding package.
That's a huge part of like whatI call the zero revision method
.
Now I always put in like what Icall like two safety net
(38:50):
revisions.
If we don't nail it, thenthere's always I'm not.
I'm not that person that's likenow you pay me more.
You know it's like there'salways built in that.
But I rarely have clients dothat because of the discovery
phase, of sending them kind ofexamples of we could do
something like this or this.
And it's like different stylesto see where they're at and not
(39:12):
just like which one do you like.
It's like asking them questionsof like what do you, which ones
do you like and why, or likewhich ones don't resonate and
why, and putting make sure youhave like different styles.
A lot of mood boards designersput together are really
beautiful and cohesive and Ilove that.
But I've never done that.
I've always done all thesedifferent styles, similar vibes.
(39:32):
But if someone says I want areally classic brand.
Well, that could mean a lot ofdifferent things.
Visually it can mean reallyrefined and sophisticated, or it
could be classic and timelessbut also approachable, and so
those are different fonts I'mgoing to pull from and so I show
them those kind of options.
Josh Hall (39:50):
How do you feel when it came to the deliverables of
what to give a client with abranding a basic light branding
package?
One thing that I did for someclients and I would encourage
all web designers to do, is tohave like an assets page, and I
was just thinking like thiscould that could be an
incredible upsell with this aswell, which is a part of your
(40:10):
branding light.
Your light branding packagethat's a thousand is a page on
your website with your logofiles, with your colors, with
your brand font styles that youcan always refer back to, your
team can refer back to, andanytime you're doing an ad or a
publication, you don't need tofind your logo files.
You can just send them to yourpage.
They download it.
That could be an upsell, too,is to make like an assets page
(40:33):
as a part of the package.
Jamie Starcevich (40:34):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, you took it next level.
And I'm learning from you soyou can take that one and add it
in your program.
Jamie, A lot of brands do thatalready.
If you want to like creep onhow, like major brands are doing
it, like you can go to like Idon't even know what's this one.
Josh Hall (40:52):
Recent example SiteGround.
Hats off to them for being apartner for our upcoming Web
Designer Pro event.
A sponsor I just you couldGoogle just SiteGround logo
white.
But I actually found theirassets page that has all of
their logo styles and differentformats and I was like this is
great, so yeah.
Jamie Starcevich (41:11):
Yeah, I think that's so easy, because how many
of us like my desktop isembarrassing, how like I need to
clean it up.
Like sometimes I put a folderin there that says, like, clean
up and just like, put everythingin there, and so clients are
going to lose stuff.
They just are, and you don'twant to be responsible for that
person that they come to of like, can you send me this file?
It's like so that would be nicefor them to just know if I go
(41:35):
to like my website, slash logosor whatever.
I can find all that information.
Josh Hall (41:40):
So prime example.
I'll make sure I keep this openso we link it in the show notes
for everyone who wants to checkthis out.
But if anyone just searches,excuse me, siteground brand
assets, the URL is justbrand-assets after SiteGroundcom
.
And this is I'm looking at itnow.
It's a great, it's reallysimple.
It is literally just how to usethe logo, like how to spell it.
(42:04):
If you're just going type orlike typeface, different
versions of the logo in blackand in white and transparent,
and then brand colors, and itgives you the different RGB
styles of the CMYK and usageguidelines and that's it.
So anybody can replicate whatSiteGround has.
I know a ton of companies havethat, but that is a nice.
It's super simple and greatvalue add and it just makes life
(42:27):
easier.
Moving forward, when yourclient's like, hey Josh, can you
send me that one, that theclient's asking for a vector
file, what the heck is that?
And you're like, oh yeah,here's your URL, here's your
brand assets.
Send them this over Makes youlook like a total expert and
it's a win-win and it's awin-win.
Jamie Starcevich (42:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's bringing me back.
I used to work at a universityand I had a lot of those color
hex codes memorized, butsometimes I didn't, and that was
always what I would go to topull from.
I'm like what's the color again?
Like I could look up our prettybrand guide, but I could just
go to our assets page and like Ijust get what I want you know.
Josh Hall (43:02):
Yep, boom that.
And like I just get what I wantyou know, yep, boom.
That's a good reminder.
I have that on my list forWebZenner Pro.
I need to actually do it.
I don't.
I haven't officially put thatpage together, so I think I'm
just going to rip off SiteGround.
There you go.
Yeah, beautiful, awesome, jamie.
Well, is there anything glaringthat's missing from this light
pack?
Is there anything we haven'tcovered that when we stop
recording, you're going to belike, ah, dang it.
(43:23):
I wish I would have mentionedthis.
Jamie Starcevich (43:25):
I think, yeah, one of the main things I wanted
to talk about too is just likefinding fonts.
I feel like this for me is likeI enjoy doing it, but I'm also
the designer with like 50 plustabs open of different fonts, so
I know it can be overwhelmingis what I'm saying, either like
I don't know how you arewhenever you're finding fonts,
(43:46):
but you kind of have like yoursafe fonts, your go-to fonts,
that you lean on your crutchright, but that's not always
applicable for the client andalso maybe it's not the best way
to serve them.
You could enhance the design bygetting outside of your safe
zone.
So I just wanted to chat alittle bit about that.
I think I sent you the link.
(44:07):
I have a product called TypeSwipes and it's basically these
font recipes for these kind ofthis whole product.
We're talking about this likemini brand, that's type based.
So I've done a lot of the fontresearch for you.
If you guys would benefit fromdoing that, I think it saves you
a ton of time.
But I just want to say Iacknowledge that it is hard to
(44:29):
find one font, let alone startthe process over again once you
find that font to find somethingthat goes well with it, so I
don't know how your experienceis with that, josh.
Josh Hall (44:41):
Yeah, it depends on.
Typically, because I didn'tgenerally save out too much in
the way of like actual files oranything, I would just do it
through Divi.
I would just find the fontpairings in Divi.
There was an old resource I hadthat was specific to Divi font
pairings and I use that foralmost every website.
It was like oh, I like numberseven, I'll do that for this
(45:03):
site or something similar, butthis definitely looks to the
next level and it's not justplatform-based.
So is this a Notion, doc, or isthis in Circle?
Oh, it's in Circle, isn't it?
That's like a yeah, of course,of course, very cool.
Jamie Starcevich (45:18):
Yeah, so, and I have a and I haven't given
this to anybody, I just thoughtof it for this interview I could
give you guys, if you thinkthey'd be interested in your
community like a sample pack ofsome of these type swipes.
That'd be great Because I knowI'm very visual and I have to
see, like, what is this, whatare font recipes, and so it
(45:45):
would show you like, basically,each one has a logo and then
some coordinating complimentarytype that goes with it, and so
you get to see them in action.
I included in the sample packlike a few that are more classic
and some that are more modern,so you'll get kind of a handful
of different ones and then justsee if that's something that you
want that would help you movingforward.
I try to make it a superaffordable price as far as, like
(46:07):
, if you do this every month,you would definitely benefit
from it.
You know, with your clients andupselling and things like that.
But yeah, it's been a funresource to create and something
that I've been working on forreally years and I've just kind
of put together finally to themasses to be able to offer yeah,
(46:27):
that's super cool.
Josh Hall (46:28):
So we'll have that linked up spruce roadcom slash
type dash swipes, for sure.
And then, yeah, if you havekind of a teaser guide like that
, send me that link.
I'll make sure we include thatin the show notes, for sure,
jamie, okay I'll make it justlike spruce rdcom slash sample.
Jamie Starcevich (46:43):
just make it easy oops, cool, cool.
Josh Hall (46:46):
So that'll be in the show notes as well for everybody
.
And then I just found one of myold bookmarks.
It was the ultimate.
Google font pairings is anothersite that I feature in my
design course.
Uh, that has a few differentstyles.
Most of those fonts are in mostwebsite builders, which is also
pretty cool too, but that's alittle bit different than like
finding a font that you're goingto find, you know, and make it
(47:08):
an actual brand resource for aclient.
Jamie Starcevich (47:11):
So, yeah, I love Google fonts and those are
in type swipes as well.
I try to pull from like indiefoundries as well as Google
Adobe cloud.
You know all those differentones, Um, but but yeah, I think
it's really if you are lookingto add this, then I think going
beyond like Google Fonts, wouldbe ideal for your clients to
(47:32):
really enhance the experience,and we all know, like the impact
that typography has on likereally any design form.
Whether you're designingpackaging, logos, websites, a
PDF type is like the main thingI would focus on if you're
looking to enhance your designskills, because it's like the
foundation, it's the visual wayof communicating, right, it's
(47:55):
how we read things and so itreally has a lot of like
personality built in that Ithink a lot of times we can kind
of neglect, right, Just kind offall back on the safe zone,
Like I said, the default fontsthat we use, but this is a way
to really enhance it next levelfor your clients.
Josh Hall (48:12):
Yeah, I totally agree .
This has been really cool.
I mean I this really helpssolidify, like how to what to
offer, how and when to offer it,how to price it, how to
structure it, and just thereminder that most web designers
are doing this anyway.
Jamie Starcevich (48:26):
So yeah, don't be intimidated.
Josh Hall (48:29):
Yeah, well, you're doing.
Yeah, do you don't need to be abrand designer, you don't need
to put brand strategists in yourtagline, Like you're.
You're probably doing it anyway.
Slap this label on there makingan upsell separately, or
include it in the package, andthen they'll.
They'll be saying thank you,jamie and Josh, for months on
end here moving forward.
Jamie Starcevich (48:46):
There we go.
I like that.
Josh Hall (48:48):
J and J design studio is our next endeavor.
So, uh well, jamie, this hasbeen awesome.
Any.
So we talked about the, uh, theswipe, the type swipes.
I'll make sure we link that.
Where else should people go?
I know you have any uh anewsletter that you're big on
helping our webinars out.
Where else do people go asidefrom that type of swipes?
Jamie Starcevich (49:07):
I think that's really it.
If you want to hop on thenewsletter, you can download
that sample pack and that'll getyou on my newsletter.
I really focus on like branddesign specifically, but then
just a lot of client process.
There's so much overlap in whatJosh and I do, but also, like
you said earlier, like adjacentfields, and so, yeah, I'm just
(49:28):
on my newsletter.
I occasionally pop up on socialif I'm feeling like it, but
sometimes I deactivate myaccount.
I'm like get this out of here,so so I wouldn't like point you
there necessarily, cause itmight be ghost town, um but yeah
(49:49):
, that that'll be the best placeis the newsletter.
Josh Hall (49:50):
Yeah Well, Jamie, it's so good to reconnect with
you.
I love that.
You're a shining example of howto be in this industry and do
it sustainably, especially as amompreneur like yourself, and it
seems like you've struck areally good balance.
So I think, before we hitrecord, you said it was cool to
see me stick with it in thispodcast, where it's at today,
but likewise it's really cool tosee you stick with it and know
when you need to back off thingsand know your limits, and
especially with social media.
(50:11):
Like you know, it seems likeall the gurus who tell you you
need to be on social mediaconstantly.
You've kind of gotten your ownway, but it's worked out so yeah
, thank you Cool, see, thanks,awesome.
Well, till the next one, we'llget this going and, uh, yeah, I
think it's going to help a lotof people.
So I really appreciate you,jamie, and thanks for your time
and expertise, as always on this.
Jamie Starcevich (50:33):
Yeah, thank you.
See you episode 600,.
I guess Right.
Josh Hall (50:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
We'll try to do it before fiveyears.
Jamie Starcevich (50:41):
We'll stay in touch better, all right?
Thanks, josh.
Josh Hall (50:45):
Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly wish
I would have heard this about 10years ago.
That would have made my life somuch easier.
Love this idea of a lightbranding package.
Real excited to hear from youhow you're going to be able to
implement this in your business.
You can leave Jamie and I acomment by going to the show
notes for this episode atjoshhallco slash 373, which is
(51:08):
where, again, all of the linksand resources that we mentioned.
Jamie does have her type swipesoffer for you and she's got some
really good resources over ather website at spruce roadcom
Again linked at the show notesfor this one and I want to hear
from you on how this helps youout.
So, again, leave us a comment.
I read every single commentthat comes into these podcast
(51:29):
episodes and I'll let Jamie knowto keep an eye out, so we would
love to hear from you.
Cheers, friends, to offering alight brand package to get you
out of this very commonsituation and make sure you're
subscribed, because we've gotsome doozies ahead on the
podcast and, yeah, I'm excited.
But for this type of package I would
personally, I would not go undera thousand but you could also
do something like what you saidof like, just include this in
your package and just say thisis a part of it.
Right, if you're going to offerthis kind of brand refresh and
you already are doing that inyour process, maybe you don't
need to change your pricing, ormaybe this is an opportunity to
(00:22):
increase it and say, like, callit what it is, that you're
already doing this right?
Welcome to the Web DesignBusiness Podcast, with your host
, josh Hall, helping you build aweb design business that gives
you freedom and a lifestyle youlove.
Josh Hall (00:41):
Hey, my web designer friend, now I know I'm not alone
in this situation.
Let me lay the context here.
You get a website project andyou're about ready to move
forward.
You're all excited to start anew design and then the client
sends you an absolutely shitlogo and now you're left in a
bit of a pickle, because you candesign a whole site around this
(01:03):
terrible branding, or you cantry to upsell your client to a
logo and full branding packagethat maybe they weren't
anticipating, or, worse yet, youneed to stall the website
because maybe you don't do logoor branding design and you need
to hire that out before you cando any do the website.
This is really common, but I'mso excited to tackle what to do
in this situation with a repeatguest on the podcast.
(01:25):
This is Jamie Starchevich, whoI would consider a true branding
, logo and typography expert.
She has been in this world fora long time as a freelancer and
has come up with a very, veryunique solution to this problem
by offering what she calls alight branding package, which is
literally what you can offerwhen you're in this situation.
(01:47):
So that's what we're going todive into in this one exactly
how to offer this, where to evenprice it and, again, very, very
common.
So you're not alone if this hashappened to you, and that's
what we're going to help youwith, and this one.
You can find more about Jamie bygoing to her website spruce
roadcom that is spelled S P R UC E R Dcom, and she is very
(02:07):
active on as well active ish onInstagram, as you'll hear.
Um, so go to the show notes forthis episode to connect with
her and get all the resourcesand links we mentioned, because
we do talk about some additionalresources here that she has for
you to help you.
Uh, you can go to joshhallcoslash three seven 373 to get all
those All right without furtherado.
(02:28):
Here is Jamie.
Well, jamie, it is so good toreconnect and have you back on.
Did you say you were episode 50?
Is that right?
Jamie Starcevich (02:40):
I was around there.
Yeah, it's so fun to be, to beback in it.
Uh, what are we at now?
300 something.
Josh Hall (02:46):
Yeah, you will be.
Let me look at the schedulehere.
You'll be three.
Unless this changes, you'll bethree, uh 73.
So, uh, yeah, it's been.
It's been a few years, a fewyears, few kiddos later for each
of us, and we're still cooking.
Jamie Starcevich (03:03):
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Josh Hall (03:07):
What have you been doing since we chatted last,
have you?
You know, you've had, I think,a couple.
I think you have made maybe onekid when we talked last, or
maybe two, and then, yeah, we'veboth been busy being parent,
printers and everything.
So what have you been doinglike the last five years or so?
Jamie Starcevich (03:22):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Definitely, kids are the mainchange in my life.
I have three boys and theoldest is eight, six and three,
and so I kind of hybrid likework from home, mom, stay at
home, mom, you know, kind of dodifferent hats, you know.
So, like half the week I'm athome with the kids and I
(03:43):
homeschool them, and then theother half of the week I'm
working and then my husband andI just flip-flop those jobs.
So, um, yeah, that's just whatI've been doing still, uh,
designing brands and, um,teaching about design to other
designers.
Josh Hall (04:01):
And I'm kind of curious, did you?
Did you have that in mind whenyou thought about building your
design business up and being anentrepreneur working from home?
Did you have that in mind to beable to balance that with
motherhood and being a parent,or did you just kind of make it
work?
I'm always curious now, seeingparents who are in it for a
(04:21):
while, how much of this wasplanned and how much of this
just kind of happened and youjust make it work.
Jamie Starcevich (04:26):
I mean kind of a mix of both.
Like it goes back to when I wasin college.
I was studying architecture andthen just saw like, okay, if
you're going to be an architect,maybe it's different in reality
.
I don't know.
It just seemed like a ton ofhours and I was like, even at
age what 20, I was like, well,one day I want to have kids and
so I switched to graphic designbecause that seemed like more of
(04:47):
a family-friendly field to gointo.
And it has been, which has beenawesome.
I never thought I would startmy own business, as many
business owners say, but here Iam and it's been such a blessing
to our family and, yeah, it'sjust worked out.
It's been a really great fit.
Josh Hall (05:05):
That's awesome.
It's kind of cool to talk withyou.
Yeah, literally nearly fiveyears.
I was just looking it was 2020.
It was shortly after COVID thatwe actually chatted the first
time, so nearly five years later.
So to see you on this end, towhere it's still working for you
and you're still managing thelifestyle balance.
It's actually it's anunanticipated.
(05:25):
Cool thing about this show istalking with folks like yourself
, who I haven't seen in a while,to see, like where we're at now
and how our businesses haveevolved or how they've stayed
exactly the same, which meanslike we were onto something from
the get go, which is prettycool.
Jamie Starcevich (05:38):
Yeah, I mean like different.
There's been like somedifferences, but overall I just
feel like it's really beensustainable, which has been my
goal of like I never wantburnout, you know, and so
working like two days a week, Ijust don't feel burnt out, and
any parent with kids at homeknows like it's actually easier
for me to work than to be athome with the kids sometimes,
(05:59):
you know, as far as like theintroverted me is like this is
nice, I'm just at my computer,you know a little quiet.
So it's been a good balance andsuper sustainable.
Yeah, I've enjoyed it.
Josh Hall (06:11):
What are some of the changes that you've made to
evolve the business to make sureyou're able to just keep a
lighter work schedule time wise?
Jamie Starcevich (06:19):
Yeah, so one main thing is that I do branding
and over the last few yearsI've really stopped working with
a lot of new clients and I'vejust worked with mainly one
client we do design days, soevery single week it's like
predictable nice schedule ofevery single week we do that.
(06:39):
And then I've shifted my designfocus to be more on typography,
which we're going to chat abouta little bit today, just
because I love type and it'ssomething that's even goes back
into my roots of like mygrandfather was a typesetter,
pre-computers doing like theletterpress and everything like
that.
So, yeah, I've just reallyloved diving into typography
(07:02):
from like a standpoint that'snot super technical, like I'm
not a type type designer, Idon't design fonts but I use
them for clients, and so I lovekind of chatting about that kind
of stuff more with my designcommunity.
Josh Hall (07:16):
So you stripped down to more like VIP day style just
to keep a consistent scheduleand pipeline with.
Jamie Starcevich (07:22):
Oh yeah, I was doing that when we last talked
five years ago, I think I hadmaybe just started doing it and
I've done like 500 days sincethen, probably, and you're on
the summit coming up, which Idon't know when this is being
produced.
It might be after, um, but thesimply profitable designer
summit, right, yeah, or I didn'trealize.
(07:42):
Are you speaking there too?
I am, I just saw you on there.
You're a sponsor, which isawesome.
That's my topic is, for that isthe repeat design days awesome.
Josh Hall (07:51):
Okay, yeah, this is going to come out, I think right
after that, maybe a week or twoafter it, but uh, that's really
cool.
I didn't actually just today Iwas going to look at the list
and start to promote it, so, uh,that's really cool.
I love to see that you're kindof re-engaging on this end of
things.
So did you keep your own designcommunity and your email list
and your resources for designers?
(08:13):
Have you kept that going kindof quietly and kind of
re-emerging with that, neil?
What's that look like for you?
Jamie Starcevich (08:18):
Yeah, it's just been on my email list, so
that's another change.
I haven't been like onInstagram and social media,
hardly at all.
I've just kind of not beeninterested, quite frankly.
Josh Hall (08:31):
You look nice and refreshed and happy, so it must
be working.
Jamie Starcevich (08:33):
Thank you, yeah, and no discredit to anyone
who does that.
It just was in a season in mylife where I was like I need a
break from that and it felt niceand just fits with kind of my
business model anyways, to justkeep on going with like the
newsletter.
And it felt nice and just fitswith kind of my business model
anyways, to just keep on goingwith like the newsletter and
then occasionally doing thingslike this where we will swap,
you know kind of meet up withother entrepreneurs and get in
(08:56):
front of their audience and thenyou know they'll get in front
of mine, type of thing.
So yeah, Awesome.
Josh Hall (09:01):
Well, the big thing of, I mean a lot of topics we
could dive into, but you do havekind of a specialty with
typography and with branding.
There's a really common issuewith web designers that we
really haven't, you know, kindof drilled into here on the show
, which is a client comes to youand their brand is terrible,
(09:21):
and then there's really twooptions, although I think we're
probably going to hit on thisthird option.
The options are like you do youstart with branding and do a
full blown digital rehaul oftheir logo, their design
elements, their guidelines,their fonts, everything, and
then do the website eventually.
Or you just build a websitewith a terrible logo and it
(09:42):
affects everything downhill.
But I think you've struck kindof a sweet spot with this idea
of like a what, like a lightbrand or a almost like a big, a
basic style package that may bea little typography.
So, yeah, I'd love to hear thatLike what, what, what you see
working with that and howdesigners, web designers in
particular, could almost offerlike a light branding package in
(10:04):
those scenarios.
Jamie Starcevich (10:05):
Yeah, I was wondering if I was going to
bring up the elephant in theroom or if you were about like
how clients come to you for webstuff and they're almost like
sometimes they don't even knowthey need you to bridge that gap
.
Right, they just come and say Ineed a website and you're like
actually like you need more, youmore.
And so you have to have thatconversation.
(10:26):
Or maybe it's like their cousindesigned their logo and they
think they have branding, butthey're missing a lot of key
things like what's theirtypography look like, what color
are they using, Things likethat.
And so a lot of web designersend up kind of bridging that gap
, whether they make their clientaware of that or not.
Right, Like because they haveto.
(10:47):
To build a website, you have topick fonts somehow, you have to
pick colors and things like that, and so, yeah, I love to just
dive into about like adding thatinto your process.
There's a few ways you can dothat.
One way is like a discoveryphase.
Do you kind of talk about likediscovery phase with web
designers?
Yeah, for sure, Especially ifit's like a discovery phase.
Do you kind of talk about likediscovery phase with web
designers?
Josh Hall (11:07):
Yeah for sure, Especially if it's like a
qualified lead to where, duringthat initial call, it's usually
discovery in the way of like thebrand, the goals of the website
and stuff which inevitably isgoing to lead to what they have
currently Like.
Do they have a current site andthen inevitably you look at the
brand, Right?
So yeah, absolutely.
I feel like it all starts withthat.
Jamie Starcevich (11:29):
Yeah.
So I think for brand designers,discovery phase is for clients
that have actually booked yourservices.
So it's not like a consultationcall.
It's the first step and I lovethis part of the process because
it helps me as a designerbefore I actually start like
sketching or which I'm not goodat illustrating, but before I
start like actually going intoillustrator and designing things
(11:51):
.
Like I get almost like acheckoff for my client of like
this is the direction we'regoing and that can take a few
different forms, but you can dolike a style tile showing like
these are the fonts and thecolors and like photo style or
whatever it may be, pull assetsthat they already have.
It could be like a mood boardor something like that, but
basically getting them to checkoff on like the style before you
(12:14):
actually start designing thesite or the brand, and so I love
bringing in typography intothat part of the process before
you get too deep into it.
Josh Hall (12:26):
So real quick.
There is a bit of a distinction, I feel like, between a
discovery call with before theybecome a client, like before
they pay you, versus after theypay you, and then for me I call
that a strategy call becauseit's a little more like now
you're a paid client, Now we'reactually talking nitty gritty
and details, because it's alittle more like okay, now
you're a paid client, Now we'reactually talking nitty gritty
(12:46):
and details.
But I am curious on the likebefore they pay you.
I imagine you probably want toidentify the brand where the
brand's at pretty quick, right,Because you're right, you don't
want somebody to pay you and belike oh, by the way, you
desperately need a new logo fora lot of reasons.
Jamie Starcevich (13:02):
Oh, yes, definitely, yeah, yeah, so I
think it could be just differentterminology.
I come from like.
I worked at an agency for alittle bit like freelancing and
they called it the discoveryphase and it was a lot of like
strategy and things like that.
But the consultation call iswhat I call like that first one
before clients paid you anything.
And that's when I'm having thatconversation like Like what do
(13:24):
you want, what do you need?
And then for like the web stuff, that's when you would say like
hey, I noticed like you coulduse or benefit from however you
want to phrase it reallytactfully like new branding or
like do you have branding?
And that's when you have thatconversation.
Josh Hall (13:39):
Then yeah, I totally agree.
So let's say that we identify aneed.
I think the real question is,as we all know, especially as
web designers, branding can beif you don't control it.
So, yeah, how do we like, Iguess, how do you contain
(14:09):
branding?
That's the real question.
Jamie Starcevich (14:11):
Yeah, so there's a lot of ways I feel
like we're in 2025 and there'slike totally like new ways to
approach branding than therewere back then.
You know, but I do make a livingwith branding and have for
years and and like our basepackage was like $5,000.
So I know what you mean of likeit can include a lot of things
right, strategy, it can eveninclude like communication,
(14:35):
parts of it, icons, patterns,like the whole gamut really.
You can define what that is.
But what I love about whatwe're going to talk about today
is like type-based brands andyou can create like some form of
this for your web packages.
That's like a light brandingalmost for your clients and just
make them aware of what that is, and don't call it like we're
(14:56):
going to create a fully customillustrated logo.
It's like just with anythinglike have clear, transparent
communication, and so like alight, type-based brand could
include like a logo that's justtype-based and make it clear
you're not like customizing thatunless you want to, which you
totally can, and then thetypography suite that goes with
(15:16):
that.
Josh Hall (15:18):
What would be in the typography suite Is that just
like fonts, typeface headings,kind of like the bare bones of
what you would put on a websiteand copy?
Jamie Starcevich (15:28):
Yes, for sure, Like you would need to have the
hierarchy set like the headlinecopy, like the headline type
style, along with like the callto action button and then like
the subhead and body copy anddescriptor text, whatever it may
be.
Whenever I design brands, Ialways like to use it in context
.
So for web design, you wouldalready be doing that right If
(15:50):
you have a finished product thatyou're designing the website
for.
So when creating like atype-based brand, you could show
them, like a landing page, howthat would look in different
type styles.
So, yeah, I think showing it inapplication is really key,
rather than just putting likeheadline type in like a certain
font and then like this is thebody copy or whatever it's like,
actually show like what thiswould be for promotion purposes.
(16:12):
Um, you could even repurposethat into like.
If they're an e-commerce brand,you could show them a sample
like what an insert would looklike for their packaging, um,
things like that, how they woulduse that and other instances
beyond.
Josh Hall (16:25):
Like the website Do you start with the typefaces and
typography first and then dothe logo based off of that, or
since it is a typeface logo, ordo you start with the logo and
figure out the typeface for thatand then move towards the fonts
?
Jamie Starcevich (16:42):
Yeah, I think this is an interesting
conversation.
Like in school I was alwaystaught to like sketch like 50
plus thumbnail sketches of thelogo before doing anything on
the computer.
And then, as I've been adesigner for over 15 years, I
just realized my process is notso linear.
Like I can't just like sketchthe logo, find the logo and then
(17:06):
find in black and white andthen find the type and then put
it in color.
You know I just can't do thatand maybe people are oriented in
that way, but for me I Ihonestly just approach it like
my art board is just wild.
It's like all over the placedifferent kind of options for
like lockups for the logo orlike a sub mark idea I have over
(17:26):
here, and then it just kind ofall comes together at the end.
But I call it like backwardsbranding.
I feel like I often kind ofstart at the end like with the
application in mind and thencause I like typography and I'm
just more inclined in that way,and then I bring in the logo
with that.
But sometimes it's backwards.
Sometimes I have a concept fora logo and that leads to the
(17:47):
type.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, so not a crystal
clear process on that.
Josh Hall (17:53):
I could.
You could start with the logo,or you might start with the
typefaces, and then that couldmake the low what is I mean?
Is the logo basically just yeah, like the chosen typeface
written out, or is thereanything you would do into the
logo that would make thatdifferent from just typing it
onto a page?
Jamie Starcevich (18:10):
Yeah, I think that's up to you.
If you are offering like thisas kind of a light version of
branding for web, especially inthose instances where a client
comes to you and wants a websitebut doesn't necessarily want
like a huge like brandingexpense or whatever it may be,
then you could just type out thelogo.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I just want to put that outthere.
If anyone has apprehensionsabout that, the only thing is to
(18:33):
check licensing.
Some people will say you can'tjust do that for a logo, but a
lot of licenses are open to that.
You can also modify using AdobeIllustrator.
They've made it a lot easier inthe last couple years to modify
type, and so you can dosomething like that too, which I
love doing, just to make it alittle bit more distinctive.
(18:54):
But I don't want that to be abarrier into using type for web
designers.
Josh Hall (19:00):
So by licensing do you mean like if I were to use
like Arial for a typeface for alogo, would there potentially be
trademarks on using that fontfor like an actual company's
logo?
Is that kind of what you meanby checking the legalities of?
Jamie Starcevich (19:15):
that.
Yeah, I don't know about likethe trademark side of it would
be interesting, but more so onthe font license.
So with each font there's alicense and if you go to
especially like indie foundriesthat sell their own typefaces,
they just come up with whateverthey want for their own type
foundry and so some of them willbe like use this however you
(19:38):
want.
And then others are like youcan't use this for logo, you
have to pay extra for that.
But I find that that's morerare.
Usually they're in the the boatof like.
If you can't use this for logo,you have to pay extra for that,
but I find that that's morerare.
Usually they're in the boat oflike if you purchase this
typeface, you can use it howeveryou want.
But I just want to caveat thatI'm like just check you know
before you do that.
Josh Hall (19:55):
Where?
How do you practically?
Is there a site that has likefont licenses?
Where do you check that?
Jamie Starcevich (19:59):
Whenever you download the font, there'll be
it'll say the font license onthere.
So if you're on Adobe CreativeCloud or Monotype or something
like that, like thosesubscriptions I think Google
Fonts as well they don't reallyhave limits on there and they
make that really clear and thenother ones like my Fonts I think
pretty much the same there, butthey'll always have something
(20:22):
that says the font license.
You can click and just checkthat, search for a logo and
you'll see if it says anythingthere.
But they'll always havesomething that says like the
font license.
You can click and just checkthat.
You know, search for a logo andyou'll see if it says anything
there.
Josh Hall (20:29):
Gotcha.
So in this light brandingpackage that we're kind of, you
know, peeling the layers back onhere, we got the typeface logo,
we've got the font, like thehierarchy, the font style, the
main typography and font styles.
The big question is, what aboutthese other common elements for
branding packages?
What about icons?
(20:50):
What about graphic styles?
What about brand guidelines?
How far do these light packagesgo?
Could you create tiers of these, or is that too much?
What else is in the lightbranding package?
Jamie Starcevich (21:02):
Yeah, I mean honestly, you can just do
whatever you're comfortable with.
If you are okay designing icons, by all means add that to your
package, but if that's somethingyou don't want to source or you
don't want to offer, then youdon't have to do that.
I see this as a service forthose clients that come to you
and either have a logo but don'thave anything else, and that's
(21:22):
really common.
Those clients that come to youand either have a logo but don't
have anything else and that'sreally common.
People will buy like a cheaplogo a lot of times, and
sometimes it looks fine but theydon't have anything else to go
with that, and that's whensomething like this would come
in play.
If you can say, okay, let mekind of build something around
that, and that would be thetypography.
I would do like a mini brandguide that does not have to be
(21:43):
elaborate at all, just like thetypography suite that you design
, including like the headlineand body copy and things like
that, and then like a key color,their key brand color, and you
can even do like tints above andbelow that, because that's
helpful with web, like withhovers and things like that.
But, yeah, I think, keep itreally simple for this.
(22:03):
This could be something youoffer on the back end of a
product.
If you have your main packagefor web design and then
occasionally those clients comein the door and you want to test
this out, this does not have tobe on your website.
I'm a big fan of testing thingsout behind the scenes before you
create a sales page and startgetting clients in, before
you've even vetted it theprocess.
(22:26):
So you could even just testthis out behind the scenes, tell
the first potential client itwould be a good fit for on the
consultation call, like hey, Ihave this new service I'm trying
out.
Would you want to try that?
This is what's included, andthen you'll get the process
nailed from there and see ifthis is something you want to
offer as like a tiered serviceor just kind of in those here
(22:46):
and there clients that couldbenefit from that bridge over
from, like I have this logo, butI need more, but I don't need,
like, a full brand and this iswhere that fits in.
Is this more of like a typedriven brand, kind of like a
light version of branding?
So yeah, I think just be clearabout it too.
Josh Hall (23:04):
It's genius.
I wish I would have heard thisa decade ago, because I was kind
of doing this offhand and justin a very messy way.
All web designers typically arewhere a company has a logo but,
yeah, they don't really haveany exact typefaces or
typography, fonts chosen orcolors or elements, so you just
kind of create those as you'rebuilding the website.
(23:25):
And then I've looked back andthought like, oh my gosh, I
could have absolutely eithercharged a lot more as the full
package with some sort of lightbranding.
Even though I wasn't a branddesigner, I did absolutely do
branding on nearly every project.
So in some ways I feel likemost designers are probably
doing this anyway.
Yes, exactly this is probably amatter of, in a lot of ways,
(23:46):
just sticking a label on it andwhether you, I feel like,
whether you, you tell me, jamie,like whether you sell it as an
add-on or an initial upsell, orI would think you could probably
just include this and make ahigher value package and say,
like, well, this is, you know,instead of a $2,000 website,
this is a $5,000 website, butwe're going to include our light
(24:07):
branding, we're going to give,we're going to help you with
your fonts, we're going to helpyou with your elements, and it's
all included.
So I feel like it's a greatlittle way to sell a bigger
package by just offering a lightbranding as a part of it If, if
, when, when needed for thatclient.
Jamie Starcevich (24:30):
Yeah, I agree, I was going to say that I feel
like a lot of web designersalready do this, but they might
not put a name on it or maketheir client aware that they're
doing it, and I think I'm kindof more of a people pleaser, and
so I knew that I fell into thatboat of like I would just do
things the client didn't evenknow I was doing, like it just
needs to be done.
But I feel like this is such agreat way to also get your
client into the process oftaking ownership over their
brand and you including thatinto the discovery phase or
(24:52):
whatever you want to call it,just making it more a part of
the process so that they'reaware this is going on.
They also will see the value init, which is just going to
increase the client experience.
So, yeah, I think it's such agood part of the process and
just something to incorporateeither behind the scenes or just
do this with all your clientsif you're already doing it.
Josh Hall (25:14):
That, and there's nothing worse than having
branding as a hurdle for aproject to move forward.
I remember clients wanting tomove forward and I wanted to
move forward, but their logo isjust so terrible.
I was like I'm not going to putthis on my work.
This is so timely.
By the way, I was literallyjust having a coaching chat and
Web Designer Pro this week aboutthis exact same thing.
(25:35):
The little scenario you listedout earlier is exactly what
happened.
My member got a lead qualitybusiness quality lead but it was
like their sister did the logoand the branding and it was
atrocious.
And she, because it's apersonal thing, she felt weird
about the client.
She's like I don't want to do awebsite with this based off of
this because it's just so bad.
(25:56):
So my advice was, you know,basically in a nutshell, to do
this offer like a slight rebrand, like don't let the website
slip by, don't say like we can'thelp you right now, but offer a
way to maybe use, salvage whatyou can, but just take it to a
different level within thepackage.
But this is just the best wayto package this and say you know
(26:16):
you got a logo, but there's alot of issues with best
practices and in order to builda professional site, we're going
to want to tweak the brand alittle bit, but we don't need to
blow up the whole thing.
We just you know, you can useour light branding package, just
slap it on there.
Normally I want to talk pricingnext, but we you could say,
normally maybe it's a thousand,but this is just going to be
included, we'll take, we'll takethis on as the first phase of
(26:37):
the project and we'll do it foryou.
So, like I, so I feel like thisSomebody could leave this
conversation now and have waymore confidence of having an
offer to literally put on thoseelements of just a light
branding package Real quick,before we talk pricing, though,
what about the logo?
How far are we going withsaving out different font file
(26:57):
extensions?
What would be the deliverablesof a branding package?
And then we got to talk abouthow to price it.
Jamie Starcevich (27:05):
Yeah, well, first of all, I have to say that
was like, if anyone is in thatboat, just like record what Josh
just said.
I feel like that's such atactful way to approach it of
like building in the strategyand just like communicating, for
, like the website of things, wewant to make sure everything
looks good and is like on bestpractices for website.
(27:25):
Um, that's going to be yourbest bet is to like go with
legibility, because a lot oftimes those logos are so
overdone, right, have a lot ofdistractions, and so you can use
those terms to like convincethe client that this is the way
to go.
Josh Hall (27:39):
um, yeah, but what was your question?
How many, how many crappy logosdo we get that have like a
tagline under it and you're likeif you put this on a menu,
you're just going to see twopixel font size.
No one's gonna be able to readthat.
Jamie Starcevich (27:54):
Yeah, that's exactly why type-based brands
are so great too, because I feellike and this could be a whole
other tangent but I just feellike they're so timeless because
there's a lot of trends when itcomes to logos, especially like
illustration styles, not tomention like brands change right
, like their focus might be onone thing one year, five years
later they're doing somethingelse, so the illustration no
(28:14):
longer really applies to them,and so type-based brands I just
love that because they're moretimeless in that way but still
can have a lot of personalityLike fonts really convey a lot
of messaging to clients and tocustomers.
So it's not like you're lackinganything there, but I just
think they work really well forwebsites as well.
They remove those distractions.
(28:35):
But in terms of, like you said,saving out logo files, I
wouldn't get too hung up on that.
The process takes me like 5minutes maybe to save out a logo
file.
Um, you can do whatever you needfor the website svg, png, jpeg,
eps, something like that, umbut you don't need all of the
bells and whistles of like submarks with the tagline.
(28:56):
Without a tagline, you canmaybe just do like a horizontal
and vertical option.
That that's what I wouldrecommend Is.
Josh Hall (29:03):
FedEx, a type led logo.
Like FedEx is notorious forhaving that little little arrow,
which is like one of the mostgenius marketing things.
I remember when I did somenight classes in my community
college it was one was a designbranding class and it was one of
my favorites and they theyshowed us the FedEx logo and
they showed us the arrow and Iwas like, oh my God, I God, I
(29:26):
see it now.
Holy crap, I see the arrow.
Jamie Starcevich (29:29):
Is that an?
Josh Hall (29:30):
example.
Jamie Starcevich (29:32):
That is, but that's definitely next level.
I feel like that's something Ifell into as a designer of, like
every brand needs a hiddenarrow in there or like some
hidden thing.
It just doesn't work.
Josh Hall (29:42):
It looks forced a lot of times, the sea in
Chick-fil-A is a chicken, holycrap.
Jamie Starcevich (29:50):
And those like work out really well.
But I just don't think you needlike a lot of brands are
type-based.
If you just start being moreaware of it, like go in the
packaging aisle at like someboutique store Cause you know
they have like well-designedpackaging and stuff, a lot of
those are type-based brands andso there's nothing wrong with
that.
But I do love a good good,hidden, hidden meaning in a logo
(30:11):
too.
Josh Hall (30:12):
Yeah, but the big thing is like you don't need to,
like you said, draw out 25icons with different styles and
yeah, I mean that's yeah, likethe, the icons especially, or
whatever you want to call it.
I feel like those were.
Most of the work comes intoplay with logo design is when
it's something super custom.
You get into all the vectorstuff and next thing, you know,
you know you got a hundreddifferent options for an icon
(30:34):
and it's like whew, yeah, also ahundred hours into working on
all that.
Jamie Starcevich (30:38):
So it is, and then often, like those logos,
like I said, they get likealmost like rely on these design
distractions is what I callthem.
I do love some good illustratedlogos and we have some in our
portfolio, so I'm not nothingagainst that.
But I think it's hard as adesigner to really peel back
sometimes and just do typographybecause we want to like add,
(31:00):
add, add, add.
Especially when working withclients, it's even more so this
mindset barrier of like they'repaying me I need to add more
stuff, right, but, like I said,there's so much value in just
type-driven brands and that'swhat you see a lot of
professional packaging designsthat are so beautiful.
A lot of them really lean intotypography and compare it down
(31:21):
to that and still have abeautiful, solid, solid and
creative custom brand so webdesigner pro is a type driven
brand.
Josh Hall (31:28):
Right, I don't have like an icon.
Yeah, you did it, I did it.
I've already.
I didn't realize I did it, Idid it, I think I do think
that's how it made a heck of alot easier too, because I didn't
invest in like huge brandingpackage.
I was just like web designerpro, put the pro in the you know
the little rectangle.
We're using the slapping andwhipping sound on this just
(31:49):
because when you package up, youknow a little brand package,
you got it.
Jamie Starcevich (31:53):
It just needs it.
Josh Hall (31:54):
That's the big seller for clients, by the way.
You just say we can add yourbrand package on there, it's on
us, so that makes sense.
Super easy set of deliverables.
I mean gosh, some of mine, I'mthinking, were literally just a
text document and it was likemain font, this font, secondary
font, this main color, thissecondary color, this.
(32:15):
And that was like a very, verycrude, rudimentary brand style
guide.
So, yeah, I imagine that couldbe fairly simple, like I think
your message is like don'toverthink it, don't
overcomplicate it.
Yeah, keep it simple.
Jamie Starcevich (32:31):
I think.
At the same time, I just wantto say it's not lazy.
I just want to say that fortype driven brands, like it's
not lazy.
It actually takes some skill toedit out I feel like more so
than we give ourselves creditfor but at the same time it can
be really easy.
Right, to create small minibrands using only type, I think
(32:52):
can be really easy and fun, butdoesn't mean that it's lazy or
any diminishing part of thebranding process.
Josh Hall (33:01):
Yeah, and to our point so far, it's like it would
be a shame for both parties theclient and for you as the web
designer to not have this option, because you want the client to
get a new website, but you alsodon't want it to look atrocious
.
So this is like the fix, andmaybe I would imagine there's a
time and a place to upsell themfor a bigger brand package,
(33:21):
either immediately or maybeeventually.
Maybe they get their website upand off the ground, they start
making better revenue and thenyou could really talk about a
more full fledged design andbranding package.
But it does seem like theperfect way to just get things
going Because, like I said andyou articulated too, we've
already kind of we're alreadydoing this in a lot of ways.
Jamie Starcevich (33:39):
So yeah, I think so.
And you can definitely refer outbrand designers.
Like I'm a big fan, I'm sureyou are as well like
collaborating with otherdesigners.
But that can either someclients don't want that, they
don't have the budget for it, orthey're not ready for a full
brand rehaul, Like maybe they'rejust kind of wanting a website
up.
You know, now, timing could bean issue with that too, but it
(34:03):
could also be a barrier for youas the web designer of like
you're losing that momentum ofwhat you have, this call with
them or whatever it may be thatthey're ready to go, and then
you're like wait, go to thisother person for a few months
and hope, I hope you come back,you know.
Josh Hall (34:17):
Great point, great point.
Yeah, you you never want a hotlead who has like money that
they're like about ready to payyou to be like.
Actually you hold on to that.
Come back in a few months whenyou get a new logo.
Yeah, Like, get that depositand then do a basic parenting
package to kick it offAbsolutely.
Jamie Starcevich (34:34):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (34:36):
Speaking of money, we got to talk pricing.
So what are some average rangesfor?
You know, we talk at 99 bucks.
Are we talking a thousand Ifyour guys' base package starts
at 5k?
You know, yeah, what are theranges look like?
As far, of course, I imagineyou could, you know, customize
this to to all in, but what arejust some average price ranges
for, like a light brandingpackage?
Jamie Starcevich (34:57):
Yeah, I think you just said it right there
Like people will charge $99.
Isn't there like 99 designs orsomething like that for a logo?
And I just want to say don't dothat.
I don't think that that'sreally valuing it.
But it can go all the way up tolike I've seen brands offer
like $10,000 packages or evenmore than that, and so there's
(35:20):
just this huge wide range.
But for this type of package, Iwould personally I would not go
under a thousand.
But you could also do somethinglike what you said of like just
include this in your packageand just say this is a part of
it.
Right, if you're going to offerthis kind of brand refresh and
you already are doing that inyour process maybe you don't
(35:41):
need to change your pricing.
Or maybe this is an opportunityto increase it and say, call it
what it is that you're alreadydoing this.
So that's another way to do it.
But personally, I wouldn't gounder $1,000 if you're offering
this as an a la carte, add-onkind of package.
But yeah, what do you think,josh?
Josh Hall (35:59):
I agree, yeah, and of course, like you said in the
beginning, it depends on thediscovery call as far as whether
they're good to go and theydon't need any.
Like they've got a style guideyou follow which makes the
colors, but that all bleeds intoeverything else and then you're
(36:28):
really.
You are thinking about moodboards and, even if it's on a
very simplistic level, you arethinking about, well, what does
this look like compared to theircompetitors?
There is a lot, even on asimple level.
There's still a lot of mentalenergy and a lot of design IP
that you're thinking through onthis.
So I totally agree, I wouldnever do it less than a thousand
.
But yeah, just echoing yourpoint, like it's just a part of
(36:48):
the process.
So, instead of takingsomebody's brand styles and
going right into developing andplanning the site, you may say,
well, first phase is nailingthis down and then that's going
to go into the next phase, whichis moving all of the initial
brand styles over to the website.
So, yeah, I like that idea oflike a thousand to probably a
(37:09):
couple thousand.
Honestly, I would try it outwith a thousand.
I think that sounds good, thatsounds like a light package
option and then eventually, ifyou really dial it in, you
probably increase it anymore.
But that also can help you takea project from you know, 6,500
to 7,500.
Just just with that, and again,you don't need it could be a
(37:30):
line item or an add on on onyour proposal or it could just
be phase one of the project.
Jamie Starcevich (37:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to kind of tweak
it and use it for what you needand, like, like you said, it
just depends on the client,because some clients are ready
to rock and roll and then othersjust need that bridge, and so
this is a good solution to helpthem with that and make them
aware of, like, how you cansupport them in that way.
Josh Hall (37:56):
How do you handle revisions on that type of thing,
like if you present, becausethe other big aspect I know that
you're big on is handlingrevisions.
Your first episode, which wasnumber 50 on the podcast, was
how to limit client revisionsand your your one revision
method.
But or was it?
Is it no revision method?
Jamie Starcevich (38:13):
Zero revision yes.
Josh Hall (38:14):
Zero revision.
That's right.
That's right.
Um, do you basically give themlike tight constraints or or how
, yeah, how would we make surethat that doesn't grow legs and
become this revision andfeedback fest?
Jamie Starcevich (38:28):
I like that grow legs.
Yeah, I think it's a part ofthe process, of that discovery
phase, like what I call it thediscovery phase before you start
the design process and gettingthem on board with that, before
you start sending them kind ofthis light branding package.
That's a huge part of like whatI call the zero revision method
.
Now I always put in like what Icall like two safety net
(38:50):
revisions.
If we don't nail it, thenthere's always I'm not.
I'm not that person that's likenow you pay me more.
You know it's like there'salways built in that.
But I rarely have clients dothat because of the discovery
phase, of sending them kind ofexamples of we could do
something like this or this.
And it's like different stylesto see where they're at and not
(39:12):
just like which one do you like.
It's like asking them questionsof like what do you, which ones
do you like and why, or likewhich ones don't resonate and
why, and putting make sure youhave like different styles.
A lot of mood boards designersput together are really
beautiful and cohesive and Ilove that.
But I've never done that.
I've always done all thesedifferent styles, similar vibes.
(39:32):
But if someone says I want areally classic brand.
Well, that could mean a lot ofdifferent things.
Visually it can mean reallyrefined and sophisticated, or it
could be classic and timelessbut also approachable, and so
those are different fonts I'mgoing to pull from and so I show
them those kind of options.
Josh Hall (39:50):
How do you feel when it came to the deliverables of
what to give a client with abranding a basic light branding
package?
One thing that I did for someclients and I would encourage
all web designers to do, is tohave like an assets page, and I
was just thinking like thiscould that could be an
incredible upsell with this aswell, which is a part of your
(40:10):
branding light.
Your light branding packagethat's a thousand is a page on
your website with your logofiles, with your colors, with
your brand font styles that youcan always refer back to, your
team can refer back to, andanytime you're doing an ad or a
publication, you don't need tofind your logo files.
You can just send them to yourpage.
They download it.
That could be an upsell, too,is to make like an assets page
(40:33):
as a part of the package.
Jamie Starcevich (40:34):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, you took it next level.
And I'm learning from you soyou can take that one and add it
in your program.
Jamie, A lot of brands do thatalready.
If you want to like creep onhow, like major brands are doing
it, like you can go to like Idon't even know what's this one.
Josh Hall (40:52):
Recent example SiteGround.
Hats off to them for being apartner for our upcoming Web
Designer Pro event.
A sponsor I just you couldGoogle just SiteGround logo
white.
But I actually found theirassets page that has all of
their logo styles and differentformats and I was like this is
great, so yeah.
Jamie Starcevich (41:11):
Yeah, I think that's so easy, because how many
of us like my desktop isembarrassing, how like I need to
clean it up.
Like sometimes I put a folderin there that says, like, clean
up and just like, put everythingin there, and so clients are
going to lose stuff.
They just are, and you don'twant to be responsible for that
person that they come to of like, can you send me this file?
It's like so that would be nicefor them to just know if I go
(41:35):
to like my website, slash logosor whatever.
I can find all that information.
Josh Hall (41:40):
So prime example.
I'll make sure I keep this openso we link it in the show notes
for everyone who wants to checkthis out.
But if anyone just searches,excuse me, siteground brand
assets, the URL is justbrand-assets after SiteGroundcom
.
And this is I'm looking at itnow.
It's a great, it's reallysimple.
It is literally just how to usethe logo, like how to spell it.
(42:04):
If you're just going type orlike typeface, different
versions of the logo in blackand in white and transparent,
and then brand colors, and itgives you the different RGB
styles of the CMYK and usageguidelines and that's it.
So anybody can replicate whatSiteGround has.
I know a ton of companies havethat, but that is a nice.
It's super simple and greatvalue add and it just makes life
(42:27):
easier.
Moving forward, when yourclient's like, hey Josh, can you
send me that one, that theclient's asking for a vector
file, what the heck is that?
And you're like, oh yeah,here's your URL, here's your
brand assets.
Send them this over Makes youlook like a total expert and
it's a win-win and it's awin-win.
Jamie Starcevich (42:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's bringing me back.
I used to work at a universityand I had a lot of those color
hex codes memorized, butsometimes I didn't, and that was
always what I would go to topull from.
I'm like what's the color again?
Like I could look up our prettybrand guide, but I could just
go to our assets page and like Ijust get what I want you know.
Josh Hall (43:02):
Yep, boom that.
And like I just get what I wantyou know, yep, boom.
That's a good reminder.
I have that on my list forWebZenner Pro.
I need to actually do it.
I don't.
I haven't officially put thatpage together, so I think I'm
just going to rip off SiteGround.
There you go.
Yeah, beautiful, awesome, jamie.
Well, is there anything glaringthat's missing from this light
pack?
Is there anything we haven'tcovered that when we stop
recording, you're going to belike, ah, dang it.
(43:23):
I wish I would have mentionedthis.
Jamie Starcevich (43:25):
I think, yeah, one of the main things I wanted
to talk about too is just likefinding fonts.
I feel like this for me is likeI enjoy doing it, but I'm also
the designer with like 50 plustabs open of different fonts, so
I know it can be overwhelmingis what I'm saying, either like
I don't know how you arewhenever you're finding fonts,
(43:46):
but you kind of have like yoursafe fonts, your go-to fonts,
that you lean on your crutchright, but that's not always
applicable for the client andalso maybe it's not the best way
to serve them.
You could enhance the design bygetting outside of your safe
zone.
So I just wanted to chat alittle bit about that.
I think I sent you the link.
(44:07):
I have a product called TypeSwipes and it's basically these
font recipes for these kind ofthis whole product.
We're talking about this likemini brand, that's type based.
So I've done a lot of the fontresearch for you.
If you guys would benefit fromdoing that, I think it saves you
a ton of time.
But I just want to say Iacknowledge that it is hard to
(44:29):
find one font, let alone startthe process over again once you
find that font to find somethingthat goes well with it, so I
don't know how your experienceis with that, josh.
Josh Hall (44:41):
Yeah, it depends on.
Typically, because I didn'tgenerally save out too much in
the way of like actual files oranything, I would just do it
through Divi.
I would just find the fontpairings in Divi.
There was an old resource I hadthat was specific to Divi font
pairings and I use that foralmost every website.
It was like oh, I like numberseven, I'll do that for this
(45:03):
site or something similar, butthis definitely looks to the
next level and it's not justplatform-based.
So is this a Notion, doc, or isthis in Circle?
Oh, it's in Circle, isn't it?
That's like a yeah, of course,of course, very cool.
Jamie Starcevich (45:18):
Yeah, so, and I have a and I haven't given
this to anybody, I just thoughtof it for this interview I could
give you guys, if you thinkthey'd be interested in your
community like a sample pack ofsome of these type swipes.
That'd be great Because I knowI'm very visual and I have to
see, like, what is this, whatare font recipes, and so it
(45:45):
would show you like, basically,each one has a logo and then
some coordinating complimentarytype that goes with it, and so
you get to see them in action.
I included in the sample packlike a few that are more classic
and some that are more modern,so you'll get kind of a handful
of different ones and then justsee if that's something that you
want that would help you movingforward.
I try to make it a superaffordable price as far as, like
(46:07):
, if you do this every month,you would definitely benefit
from it.
You know, with your clients andupselling and things like that.
But yeah, it's been a funresource to create and something
that I've been working on forreally years and I've just kind
of put together finally to themasses to be able to offer yeah,
(46:27):
that's super cool.
Josh Hall (46:28):
So we'll have that linked up spruce roadcom slash
type dash swipes, for sure.
And then, yeah, if you havekind of a teaser guide like that
, send me that link.
I'll make sure we include thatin the show notes, for sure,
jamie, okay I'll make it justlike spruce rdcom slash sample.
Jamie Starcevich (46:43):
just make it easy oops, cool, cool.
Josh Hall (46:46):
So that'll be in the show notes as well for everybody
.
And then I just found one of myold bookmarks.
It was the ultimate.
Google font pairings is anothersite that I feature in my
design course.
Uh, that has a few differentstyles.
Most of those fonts are in mostwebsite builders, which is also
pretty cool too, but that's alittle bit different than like
finding a font that you're goingto find, you know, and make it
(47:08):
an actual brand resource for aclient.
Jamie Starcevich (47:11):
So, yeah, I love Google fonts and those are
in type swipes as well.
I try to pull from like indiefoundries as well as Google
Adobe cloud.
You know all those differentones, Um, but but yeah, I think
it's really if you are lookingto add this, then I think going
beyond like Google Fonts, wouldbe ideal for your clients to
(47:32):
really enhance the experience,and we all know, like the impact
that typography has on likereally any design form.
Whether you're designingpackaging, logos, websites, a
PDF type is like the main thingI would focus on if you're
looking to enhance your designskills, because it's like the
foundation, it's the visual wayof communicating, right, it's
(47:55):
how we read things and so itreally has a lot of like
personality built in that Ithink a lot of times we can kind
of neglect, right, Just kind offall back on the safe zone,
Like I said, the default fontsthat we use, but this is a way
to really enhance it next levelfor your clients.
Josh Hall (48:12):
Yeah, I totally agree .
This has been really cool.
I mean I this really helpssolidify, like how to what to
offer, how and when to offer it,how to price it, how to
structure it, and just thereminder that most web designers
are doing this anyway.
Jamie Starcevich (48:26):
So yeah, don't be intimidated.
Josh Hall (48:29):
Yeah, well, you're doing.
Yeah, do you don't need to be abrand designer, you don't need
to put brand strategists in yourtagline, Like you're.
You're probably doing it anyway.
Slap this label on there makingan upsell separately, or
include it in the package, andthen they'll.
They'll be saying thank you,jamie and Josh, for months on
end here moving forward.
Jamie Starcevich (48:46):
There we go.
I like that.
Josh Hall (48:48):
J and J design studio is our next endeavor.
So, uh well, jamie, this hasbeen awesome.
Any.
So we talked about the, uh, theswipe, the type swipes.
I'll make sure we link that.
Where else should people go?
I know you have any uh anewsletter that you're big on
helping our webinars out.
Where else do people go asidefrom that type of swipes?
Jamie Starcevich (49:07):
I think that's really it.
If you want to hop on thenewsletter, you can download
that sample pack and that'll getyou on my newsletter.
I really focus on like branddesign specifically, but then
just a lot of client process.
There's so much overlap in whatJosh and I do, but also, like
you said earlier, like adjacentfields, and so, yeah, I'm just
(49:28):
on my newsletter.
I occasionally pop up on socialif I'm feeling like it, but
sometimes I deactivate myaccount.
I'm like get this out of here,so so I wouldn't like point you
there necessarily, cause itmight be ghost town, um but yeah
(49:49):
, that that'll be the best placeis the newsletter.
Josh Hall (49:50):
Yeah Well, Jamie, it's so good to reconnect with
you.
I love that.
You're a shining example of howto be in this industry and do
it sustainably, especially as amompreneur like yourself, and it
seems like you've struck areally good balance.
So I think, before we hitrecord, you said it was cool to
see me stick with it in thispodcast, where it's at today,
but likewise it's really cool tosee you stick with it and know
when you need to back off thingsand know your limits, and
especially with social media.
(50:11):
Like you know, it seems likeall the gurus who tell you you
need to be on social mediaconstantly.
You've kind of gotten your ownway, but it's worked out so yeah
, thank you Cool, see, thanks,awesome.
Well, till the next one, we'llget this going and, uh, yeah, I
think it's going to help a lotof people.
So I really appreciate you,jamie, and thanks for your time
and expertise, as always on this.
Jamie Starcevich (50:33):
Yeah, thank you.
See you episode 600,.
I guess Right.
Josh Hall (50:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
We'll try to do it before fiveyears.
Jamie Starcevich (50:41):
We'll stay in touch better, all right?
Thanks, josh.
Josh Hall (50:45):
Well, I don't know about you, but I certainly wish
I would have heard this about 10years ago.
That would have made my life somuch easier.
Love this idea of a lightbranding package.
Real excited to hear from youhow you're going to be able to
implement this in your business.
You can leave Jamie and I acomment by going to the show
notes for this episode atjoshhallco slash 373, which is
(51:08):
where, again, all of the linksand resources that we mentioned.
Jamie does have her type swipesoffer for you and she's got some
really good resources over ather website at spruce roadcom
Again linked at the show notesfor this one and I want to hear
from you on how this helps youout.
So, again, leave us a comment.
I read every single commentthat comes into these podcast
(51:29):
episodes and I'll let Jamie knowto keep an eye out, so we would
love to hear from you.
Cheers, friends, to offering alight brand package to get you
out of this very commonsituation and make sure you're
subscribed, because we've gotsome doozies ahead on the
podcast and, yeah, I'm excited.
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