376 - Are you a Web Designer or Brand Strategist? with Jacob Cass

Web designers do a lot more than just web design…

It’s not uncommon for us to be graphic and brand designers, photographers, strategists, copywriters, etc…

So, should we call ourselves more than just a web designer?

Award winning branding and design studio founder Jacob Cass, who’s worked with Disney, Nintendo and Jerry Seinfeld, has done it all and has some invaluable experience and perspective to share when it comes to how web designers can position themselves nowadays.

One of the many things I learned from talking with Jacob is – if you position yourself in a way that’s right for you, you’ll watch your revenue climb, you’ll attract better clients and enjoy your work more.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/376

Episode Transcript

Jacob Cass (00:00):
A few years ago where I learned about brand
strategy and I came to therealization that I didn't know
shit about brand and it justopened up this whole new world.
And even today, after studyingbrand for so many years, there's
always new facets that come upand overlap.
So if you move more intomarketing, for example, you'll

(00:22):
realize that the associationsbetween brand and marketing and
how they work together and theintricacies of how brands can
grow that's what fascinates meand there's so many subsets of
that and so many things you canstudy and learn.
And, as you heard earlierbefore, I love drifting between

(00:43):
things like we do as creatives,and brand is so big that you can
drift between all these thingsand offer as a client or you can
coach on it.
You can this.
I guess there's subsections ofwhere it's like business, design
, marketing and so forth, and Ithink there's just so many
subsets and that's what keepsthings interesting for me.

Josh Hall (01:06):
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with
your host.

Jacob Cass (01:15):
Josh Hall.

Josh Hall (01:16):
Helping you build a web design business that gives
you freedom and a lifestyle youlove.
The age old question are you aweb designer or are you a brand
strategist?
We all know that web designersdo way more than just web design
.
Now, some of us may be a littlemore marketing first and
websites are a big part of thebusiness, and then what I've

(01:37):
found is there's kind of theother half of web designers
where it's a little more designdevelopment first, and then you
may dip your toe into marketing.
Regardless, we're all doing waymore than probably just
building a website.
So the question is what do youcall yourself and how?
More importantly, how do youposition yourself to clients so
you're not just an order takeror a task taker for pushing

(02:01):
pixels around for clients'desires?
So to get into this and to helpyou really nail down your
position and what you want tocall yourself, I am absolutely
pumped to bring in Jacob Kass.
Now, jacob, if you've been inthe design world for any amount
of time, you may have seen himaround.
He is actually an award-winningdesign agency founder.

(02:22):
He has worked with clients suchas Disney, nintendo, jerry
Seinfeld, among others.
He's been in this industry fora long time, and the reason I
mentioned that is he has come tosome more recent realizations
about brand and what he thoughthe knew about branding and what
he actually realized he didn'tknow at all.

(02:42):
So we're going to get into allof that because he's positioning
himself a little moredifferently now and you can take
the same exact approach to helpyou land awesome clients,
especially those of you who areon the marketing side and are
doing branding alongside webdesign, so pumped to dive into
this one Super fun combo here.
And it was really awesome tofinally have Jacob on the show.

(03:03):
You can check out his websiteat just creativecom.
That is his brand, branding anddesign agency.
Again, that's just creativecom.
We talked about some links andother things in the show notes
for this one, which will befound at joshhallco slash 736.
Without further ado, here isbranding specialist.

(03:23):
All right, that's, that's thenew title.
Anywho, here's jacob.
Jacob, great to have you onofficially, man.
Uh, long overdue.
I've been saying like I thinkI've seen your face around and
different design summits andstuff for probably a good I
don't know five or six years, soit's great to finally chat

(03:45):
one-on-one man.

Jacob Cass (03:46):
Yeah, I can't believe it's taken this long.
And yeah, we have been at thesame summits for a couple of
times, so it's awesome toproperly connect.
I've watched your videos in thepast as well, so, yeah, let's
do this.

Josh Hall (03:56):
I'm really excited to chat.
We don't have an exact topicwe're diving into, but we were
just saying, you know, you and Iare like slightly adjacent,
with me being in web and youbeing in more brand strategy and
design, although we haveobviously a lot of crossover.
So I'm kind of curious when,when somebody who is tech savvy
and is in this world asks whatyou do, what do you tell them

(04:18):
exactly?
Cause you have a lot of thingsgoing on.

Jacob Cass (04:21):
I'm still figuring that one out okay, it's
constantly changing and you knowtitles are titles and you know,
depends on who you market into.
It kind of adapts and I'm in atricky situation because I'm
serving two clients likebusiness owners, entrepreneurs
and also creators, with coachingand things, so and then I run,
uh, you know, a few otherservices on the side in terms of

(04:41):
, like, digital products andaffiliate marketing and a
community.
So there is a lot of thingsgoing on.
I love us the variety of it andthat's like a double-edged
sword, right, um, it takes awaysome focus, but, like I just
enjoy the creative uh, or driftin between creative pursuits.
I like to call myself acreative drifter and yeah,

(05:02):
there's it.
Um, has pros and cons, but I Ifeel like I can easily answer
your question.
I think my LinkedIn title saysbrand um, brand designer and
strategist at the moment, butalso I'm a business coach, I'm a
community leader and so forth.

Josh Hall (05:17):
So that's probably good for the client side, but I
feel like the uh, the term forall other designers, cause we
all resonate with that as thedrifter.
I'm sure that scares the hellout of clients.
I'm sure to hear a drifter, butwe all know like after a few
years you get an itch to eitherdo something else or maybe add
something new to your businessor do something new, especially
as a full blown entrepreneurlike yourself.

(05:38):
So I like that, I like thecreative drifter.
I might steal that and make itmy own.
You're welcome, go for it.
How long?

Jacob Cass (05:51):
how long have you been in the design world?
I started just creative designin 2007.
And that is was my blog, whichkind of evolved into my brand
studio, where which is involvedin community now.
So yeah, 2007, I registered mybusiness.
I think maybe a few yearsbefore that I was dabbling in,
you know, pirated versions ofPhotoshop.

Josh Hall (06:08):
Coming up on 20 years .
Congrats, man.
Let's just kick off with that.
Like what?
What are the biggestdifferences now in the world of
design and branding?
Well, you could throw a web inthere too, if you want.
Versus, you know, almost 20years ago.

Jacob Cass (06:23):
Well, for context, my career has spanned from being
a logo designer to brandidentity designer, freelancing,
and then my career jumpstartedwhen I got headhunted by an
agency in New York and that'swhen I moved to New York.
For about five years I workedas an interactive designer and
throughout that time I wasbuilding up my own agency just
to get some runway.

(06:44):
And then I left to travel for afew years and that's when my
business really catapultedbecause I had more time to focus
on my business.
So I did the digital nomadthing for three or four years.
Then I settled back home inAustralia and continued working
for myself during all thosecreative endeavors I mentioned
before.
So that's the context for this.

(07:05):
So if you look back on you know,you look back and try to
connect the dots.
It's it's easy to do that, butyou know times are different,
right?
So blog I was heavily intoblogging, blogging definitely
not blogging blogging back then.
And um, that's when I was verydeep in the blogging and design

(07:25):
world and things were very tightknit now back then.
These days, content marketingis mainstream and there's so
much noise it's ridiculous.
It's like to even get theattention of others.
So that's the biggestdifference I see is that we're
playing in a world with muchmore competition, but we also
have much more opportunity backto back.

(07:46):
Then we can dive deeper intothat, but that's the biggest
difference I see from back thento now, and we're talking, like
you know, 15 years.

Josh Hall (07:55):
Do you think that holds true mainly just for, like
, social media and onlinepresence, or do you feel like
that's also true in person likein-person networking and events,
meetups and groups and feellike that's also true in person
like in-person networking andevents, meetups and groups and
stuff like that?

Jacob Cass (08:08):
I don't do much in-person networking here in
sydney.
When I lived in new york I Iwas, you know, every weekend was
like a networking event.
It was just crazy becauseeverything is so condensed over
there in manhattan that is.
But, um, I, I'm pretty much adigital uh native and I do all
my connections through throughthe web.
So I'm pretty much a digital uhnative and I do all my
connections through through theweb.
So I'm pretty biased to that.

Josh Hall (08:28):
Yeah, I only asked that because I see so many
members of my community killingit and in a lot of different
fields as far as marketing, butthe surefire one is in-person
networking.
Like I don't know many barelyany of my students who haven't
stuck with networking andthey're not super busy and
they're not getting a consistentpipeline of clients, and I
think it's probably a testamentto how, like, what we're used to

(08:52):
in the online world is stillfairly different in the
in-person B2B space withcorporate business people,
because they go to networkinggroups and event meetups and
things in person, and I don'tknow if they're meeting that
many more web designers todaythan they were even maybe 10
years ago.
So I do feel like, despiteonline things being more

(09:14):
cluttered than ever, in person Ialmost feel like there's even
more of an opportunity to standup.

Jacob Cass (09:19):
Yeah, I really enjoy it when I get to an in-person
event.
There's just not as many inSydney versus the states that I
experienced.

Josh Hall (09:27):
Gotcha so different times.
I mean gosh, we could take thisinto so many areas with AI and
everything else going on.
But tell me about yourexperience in web.
How far did you go down in theworld of website and UI and UX
and design?

Jacob Cass (09:42):
Yeah, so how far do you want to go back?
Geocities, myspace I grew upwith that sort of stuff, so I
was heavily into customizing myMySpace profile.
Learning HTML and CSS are thebasics of it.

Josh Hall (09:56):
By the way, how many designers do you think got their
start doing that?
Because that was my story, thatwas so many web designers'
story was you customize yourMySpace page and somehow they
made it, so people just figuredit out.

Jacob Cass (10:07):
Yeah, I have no idea , but that's how I got into it.
And a bit of web design on theside, and then Photoshop as well
, and then logos and music, cdcovers and things.
So that's how I started justdabbling in the creative
industry.
I never really knew aboutgraphic design as a career back
then.
I was just dabbling in thecreative industry.
I never really knew aboutgraphic design as a career back
then.
I was just dabbling and havingfun.

(10:27):
And then my careers advisortold me about you know, graphic
design as a career and that'swhen the light bulb went off.
But to come back to yourquestion around web design,
that's how I got started.
But then I worked on my ownwebsite, just Creative, and
that's where I learned aboutblogging and WordPress.
So it's really about learninghow to use WordPress and themes

(10:51):
to customize my own website.
That's how I got into webdesign.
And then that kind of explodedand I ended up working for an
agency in New York.
So I went from being a designstudent to working for brands
like Disney and Nike andCoca-Cola and Nintendo like
dozens of Nintendo websites,which was really fun, and that's

(11:12):
where I cut my teeth in the webworld and created so many
websites, mainly UX and UI, notso much development.
We had some programmers andexpert developers there, but
yeah, that's where I got intoweb design.

Josh Hall (11:27):
What type of websites were you doing?
Were they like productsassociated with some of those
big brands?
I'm always fascinated whensomebody has a Rolodex, like you
have, of these hugemultinational companies.
What type of work were youdoing for them?

Jacob Cass (11:43):
Yeah, so it was all across the board.
Nintendo was all gamingwebsites for their platforms.
For Coca-Cola it was likeOlympic websites.
It was like Powerade websites.
We had some whiskey brands inour portfolio Cutty Sark was one
of them so we're creatingwebsites for their products.

(12:06):
Generally they're a beverage ora game or that sort of thing.
We had a few real estate sitesas well, and Facebook apps.
They were a thing back then.
So Disney had one like astorybook app within Facebook.
I'm really dating myself here,but yeah, those are the sorts of

(12:29):
projects that the agency hadand they were a digital agency
kind of ahead of the curve forthat time.
And that's why they headhuntedme, because I was so heavily
into social and into digitalthat I got their attention and
yeah, that's what we focused on.

Josh Hall (12:45):
What were you posting on social back then?
Were you doing?
Thought leader examples, designtips, tricks.
I would never call myself athought leader.

Jacob Cass (12:53):
back then I was literally sharing my design
studies.
Actually, I was still a studentat university and I was sharing
my design process and blogging.
So I was heavily into logodesign back then and I was
sharing a lot on logos.
But just in the background Iwas working on websites as well.
So it was kind of like logosand websites and that's really

(13:17):
how I built my online brand orpersonal brand back then was
through logo and identity design.
So what makes a good logo?
What makes a bad logo?
How much for a logo?
So, like, all of my content wasfocused on logos for a long
time and that worked really wellfor search.
So I've had a lot of um, a lotof leads through search back

(13:37):
then as well.
And, yeah, just through that Ibuilt my creative design
business.
Logos went into identity andthat went into website.
So that was kind of my creativebusiness back then.

Josh Hall (13:48):
I know our mutual friend, James Barnard told me
the same thing that he justkilled it with SEO for logo
designer.
That is not uncommon.
A lot of graphic designers Italked to who have even the
baseline experience of webdesign do tend to kill it on the
SEO world because it seems likemost graphic designers just
aren't focused on that, Whereasmost web designers are.

(14:09):
So I feel like what an edge upfor brand designers and logo
designers to just focus a littlebit on their SEO game to stand
out like that.

Jacob Cass (14:17):
Yeah, man, it was much easier back then.
These days there's so much morecompetition, we have AI results
and you have to pay to play inmost instances, and google these
days is favoring um, excuse meforums and, uh, community
platforms versus, uh, small tomedium size blogs, which, which,
where, which my blog fell into.

(14:39):
So I was number one to three onso many key phrases for a long
time and a couple of years itkind of just dropped off and it
tanked my whole SEO marketingstrategy, unfortunately.
But I had to pivot and thatturned into a summit and so
forth.

Josh Hall (14:56):
Has that helped with SEO?
Because I've actually.
I mean, I've seen some of that,but I've still found that, at
least for my content of that.
But I've still found that, atleast for my content, I'm still
getting decent rankings on somethings, especially if it's just
like truly authentic and real,like google is.
Despite all the ai slop that'sgoing on right now, it is doing

(15:17):
a pretty good job from what Isee, with, like filtering out
the duplicated stuff and justthe straight up chat GPT answers
I've actually seen.
I guess it may depend on theterm and the phrase, but it does
seem like they're stillprioritizing good human read
content.
I don't know exactly thesituation with your drops.

Jacob Cass (15:37):
Yeah, so it changes definitely on the key phrase
that you're looking for,absolutely, but just for some
context.
So our site now gets like sixto ten thousand a month, but we
were at one stage getting amillion, uh, page views a month.
So it's, you know, it's a huge,huge drop off in terms of the,
the traffic and that was because, oh, go ahead sorry the reason

(16:00):
behind that is because our sitewas heavily focused on affiliate
marketing, so we had a lot ofcontent focused on, you know,
like listicles or best laptopsfor designers and that sort of
content dropped off.
Some of the like evergreencontent is still doing okay.
You know how much for a logodesign, for example, could be

(16:21):
doing okay, but then you get somany other big players come in.
You know 99designs or Fiverr orHubSpot or anything, uh, could
be doing okay, but then you getso many other big players come
in you know 99 designs or a fiveor um HubSpot or anything, and
you know Google prototypeprioritizes these huge ugly much
better content because theyhave better resources and the
research, well-researchedkeywords and everything.
So it's getting much harder forsmaller businesses to compete

(16:42):
in, in my opinion.
To say, a couple of years ago,I that makes sense.

Josh Hall (16:50):
As far as the listicle kind of thing, Um, I
mean, I used to blog for elegantthemes when I started using
Divi for a little while and itwas a very different ball game
even then.
Um, still well under a decadeago, with like the listicle type
size, you could get stuff torank pretty quick where I
totally agree.
Now that's a different, that'sa different beast.

Jacob Cass (17:06):
But yeah, totally, and you know best font articles
are best, um, you know best gearfor designers.
That sort of thing is what wewere focusing on, and we do have
evergreen content and some ofour old articles still rank,
definitely, um, but yeah, I'mjust saying it's much harder to
compete these days.

Josh Hall (17:23):
You?
I mean, it sounds like you gotthrown into the deep end with
working with huge brands Disney,coca-cola, etc.
Like were you doing freelanceother than your own websites on
the side professionally to makemoney?
Did that help?
Like I can't imagine.
What were you like early 20s,mid 20s?

Jacob Cass (17:41):
I was early 20s burning the candle at both ends.

Josh Hall (17:44):
Yeah, Like I don't know, a 22 year old getting
Disney.
You know, like I can't imaginethe presser, yeah that had to
come with that.

Jacob Cass (17:52):
You got access to their whole database in.
You know the, the 3d charactersthat you, you know, you see on
TV.
These are like ultra.
I just remember like seeingthem.
You could zoom in forever andever and ever for like how high
depth they were, like thecharacters, um, like a 3d, 4d
kind of looking characters, andI was just blown away on how
much detail each character hadversus what you just see on a

(18:14):
screen.
Right, you know it's like asmall little pixelated thing,
but literally you could zoom inforever and you had this whole
database you could type in eachcharacter.
You download it.
So it was pretty, pretty fun.

Josh Hall (18:25):
Wow.
So when you were getting someof these projects, like, did you
have any where you felt likeyou were just way in?

Jacob Cass (18:32):
over your head or where did some of your
confidence come from?
Yes, definitely, definitelywhen I.
When I first got told aboutthis, these gigs, oh, another
one that came up was JerrySeinfeld.
So I got to work with him onhis communities and cars,
getting coffee brand, and thatwas like one of those like, oh
man, this would definitely nothappen if I was still in
Australia.
Like just the access to thosesorts of clients and I'm very

(18:54):
grateful for being a part ofthat agency.
I stuck with them for a numberof years because they did have a
really nice Rolodex.

Josh Hall (19:00):
Did you struggle with imposter syndrome?
I know back then we didn't callit imposter syndrome, but did
you have those feelings or howdid you get past, like I mean,
yeah, those are, like you know,worldwide recognized brands.
How did you, as a young 20,something.

Jacob Cass (19:14):
It is definitely intimidating and I can't say
that I was the world's greatestdesigner by any means we had.
I was a junior designer and wehad senior designers, art
directors, creative directors soI'm not going to take ownership
for all of the designs I hadhelp.
So, yes, there was definitely alot of learning that went on
back then and I made a lot ofmistakes and definitely created

(19:35):
a lot of crappy designs.
But with the help of others, Igrew much faster and I actually
knew more about web design thananyone else in the agency, so I
was kind of like the guy for web.
But they also had the thinkingand the art direction and the
creative direction skillscreative director skills that

(19:55):
helped guide me or eventuallywith like brand and logo and
identity and design versus justgoing all in on web design.
I always had loved logo design.

(20:16):
I don't know what it was, butthat was where my heart went
throughout my studies andidentity design and typography
and that's just what my heartwent to and I really enjoyed
that side of things.
Web design I learned just tobuild my own website, but also
clients kind of needed theirsite, so it was just one of
those things that you learnedalong the way to accommodate

(20:39):
each client and I still love ittoday.
I still build my own websites.
I don't program them, but yeah,I'm always experimenting in
Webflow and I haven't gone intoFigma yet, but Divi and those
kind of platforms.
I'm always trying new thingsand I also just love customizing
or building my own website fromscratch.
These days I even do it inIllustrator, which many people

(21:01):
would laugh at.
But I love Illustrator becauseyou have so much control over
type and I'm just quick and Iknow the program.
So the tools change but thefundamentals don't.
And yeah, I think, just toanswer your question, I had to
think through this.
I think it was just a naturaltendency to go towards what I
love and web design was kind ofjust a secondary thing which I

(21:26):
also love.
But brand over I'm not reallyanswering this very well, but I
think brand was just anoverarching thing that I love
the most and that's what I kindof grew to.

Josh Hall (21:38):
That's cool, that's yeah, nothing wrong with that.
That's the same thing I teach alot of my members who do a lot
of the different things is Ifeel like it's pretty common for
creatives to get to a pointwhere you'll like a lot of
things but you have to decide,like, what do you love doing?
Like, what do you really like?
A lot of people like doing awebsite, but yeah, if you like
branding more and that is reallywhat you want, then by golly do
that same thing in the pocketsof web design.

(22:00):
Like there are people who reallylove ux and UI, there's people
who really like the developmentand the coding, there's people
who love SEO and hate SEO.
Like you really can just kindof decide what you want to do.
That's actually one of thecoolest things about the
overarching industry of designthat I feel like, is you can
really you can pick and choosewhat you want to do.
I mean, I don't know howexactly you instruct with your

(22:22):
mentorship program, like how youguys figure out your ideal
services, but I love that aboutthis industry.
Like there really are so manyoptions to do what you want to
do.

Jacob Cass (22:33):
Yeah, josh, I've kind of consolidated my thoughts
now, and the reason why I lovebrand is because there's many
rabbit holes that you can godown, and since the beginning,
logos are a small part of that,but the overarching theme, I
think, along this whole journeyhas been brand.
And it was a few years ago whereI learned about brand strategy

(22:54):
and I came to the realizationthat I didn't know shit about
brand and it just opened up thiswhole new world.
And even today, after studyingbrand for so many years, there's
always new facets that come upand overlap.
So if you move more intomarketing, for example, you'll
realize that the associationsbetween brand and marketing and

(23:17):
how they work together and theintricacies of how brands can
grow, that's what fascinates meand there's so many subsets of
that and so many things you canstudy and learn.
And, as you heard earlierbefore it's you know I love
drifting between things like wedo as creatives, and brand is so

(23:37):
big that you can drift betweenall these things and offer as a
client or you can coach on it.
Uh, you can this.
I guess there's subsections ofit's like business, design,
marketing, uh, and and so forth,and I think there's just so
many subsets, and that's whatkeeps things interesting for me.

Josh Hall (23:54):
So that's why I've gone to brand to answer your
question, kind of thought aboutit more yeah, well, I mean,
sometimes you have to beprompted for these type of,
especially when you're lookingback at a 10 to 20 year journey.
I do think it's good.
Sometimes you have to jog thememory and be like, yeah, why
did I make that decision?
So yeah, and sometimes it's notsuper clear.
It seems like you just kind offollow your gut on what you want

(24:16):
to do and then you don't reallyknow, like I'm sure we've all
made those decisions with ourbusiness where we're like I
didn't really think about it, Ijust kind of did it, it just
felt right.
So yeah, that makes sense.
What does a brand mean to you?
Like you mentioned some ofthose subsets, I'm always
interested in the term brandingbecause, like you said, it is

(24:37):
kind of I mean, I view it askind of an umbrella term that
encompasses a lot of differentthings.
What are the key components ofwhen somebody says brand?

Jacob Cass (24:46):
Well, you mentioned branding and it's about shaping
the perception of a product orservice, and the act of branding
is creating those memories inthe mind of the consumer.
So everything you put out anddon't put out is going to craft
that perception, and it'sdifferent for every single
person.
So you have to intentionallycraft that perception through

(25:07):
the act of branding.
So that's what it's all about,and there's many nuances of that
, but at a high level.
That's how I see branding.

Josh Hall (25:16):
And is that everything from design, copy
messaging, web print,testimonials, style guide, brand
, you know like is everythingbasically in a business part of
the branding?

Jacob Cass (25:28):
Well, it really is, because everything is part of
the brand, right?
So it's like the customerservice, the business, the print
collateral, or you knoweverything.
The customers say sorry, or thestaff say and do or don't do.
So it's part of the experience,right?
So, absolutely, it's all partof the brand.

Josh Hall (25:49):
I actually I love that you mentioned the whole
customer experience thing,because I think that's so easily
overlooked when somebody thinksabout their brand and how, like
you said, they're perceived.
And I learned a lot from this.
By Derek Sivers Are youfamiliar with him at all?
Author of so a couple of no, no, so a couple of great books for
entrepreneurs.
He was the creator of CD Baby,which was the largest

(26:11):
independent seller of musiconline.
My old band used to.
That's how we sold our albumsbefore we got a record deal.
And what I learned from himwith a couple of books that he
wrote when he built CD Baby itwasn't about the logo.
The name was cool, it wasmemorable.
It wasn't about colors ortypography or any of that.
It was about 100% customerexperience.

(26:34):
And I learned a lot as acustomer back then because we
didn't even think about it.
We were just like we don't havea record deal, but we want to
sell our CDs online and I don'tknow if there was another option
than CD Baby.
So I remember we went with that.
But it was also like I mean, Iwas an idiot online, like I what
?
I was not a tech person and wefigured it out, figured out how

(26:57):
to upload the artwork and do allthat stuff made it really
simple.
And I do remember the supportwas awesome, like they were cool
.
They were a lot of them werealso musicians and they would
chat with you and they'd be likedude, your album looks sweet,
congrats.
Listen to track three.
That was killer.
You're the drummer.
They would do that stuff andmake you feel awesome, even if
you were just a crappy localgarage band.

(27:18):
All that to say, I learned fromthat experience branding on a
different level than what mostpeople think it was, customer
service and how you're treated.

Jacob Cass (27:29):
Most people think of branding as the logo, fonts,
colors.
That's what most people think,and when you peel the layers
back, there's so much more thanthat and that's a big part of
our job is to educate clientsthat there's so much more than
just the logo, fonts and colors.
That's just 10% of what a brandis, and customer experience is
a big part of that.
But to to to really craft abrand that endures you, you

(27:53):
really need to have strategy.
You need to know what yourbrand uh, you know what your
company stands for, what valueit brings.
You have to understand yourcustomer, who you're trying to
serve.
You have to understand yourcustomer who you're trying to
serve.
You have to understand whatmakes you different versus all
the competitors and the categoryout there.
So that's all like thestrategic internal aspects of a
brand, and we're not eventalking about logos, fonts or

(28:14):
colors at this point.
You have to understand yourbrand story.
You know what is the messageyou're trying to send.
You have to understand youroverall tone of voice.
You know how you show up, howyou talk, and then your brand
identity.
And your identity is more thanjust logo, fonts and colors.
There's a big portion of it,but there's other aspects you
know the audio side of it,something people often overlook

(28:38):
and I like to kind of refer toidentity, as, like people, right
, every brand has a personality,just like a human does.
So if we can create our brandsmore like a human, they're going
to be more relatable as well.
So that's the idea, and thenyou move into marketing and all
the touch points and so forth,but that's, in a nutshell, what

(29:02):
a brand is all about.
You have to go through thosesteps to really craft a brand
that endures.

Josh Hall (29:07):
Now you have a personal brand but you also, I
think, with some of yourendeavors, have a bit.
I mean, you have just creative.
But how do you, how do you seeand how do you work with the
kind of marriage of a personalbrand, like your face, and
you're very clear, it's veryclear when you go to Just

(29:28):
Creative that Jacob is behindthe brand, like your founder,
the CEO, all the things.
How do you manage?
Or what are your thoughts aboutbeing a personal brand but also
being a little bigger brand inyourself?
And I'm selfishly asking thison behalf of a lot of my web
designers, students and memberswho also have like a bit of a
personal brand, but they mayhave a company name behind them

(29:51):
but, like with me, I'm balancingjoshhallco and Web Designer Pro
, which is my community, whichhas become like it's my main
thing and its own thing.
So I'm like right in the heatof like figuring out how to
remain, like keep them separatedslightly, but also remain the
brand.
What are your thoughts on howto marry those two?

Jacob Cass (30:11):
Yeah, these days, personal brands are really
growing.
I see them as like a flywheelright.
Like the personal brand growsthe business brand, the business
brand grows the personal brand,and they work together.
There's different ways tostructure it, so, as you said,
like they're separate, for meit's uh, together.
So just creative is my agency,is my personal brand?
It's me, my hair, my face isheavily prominent.

(30:33):
I run a lifestyle business.
I don't have employees, andthat's how I'm positioned.
So you have to understand whatyour goals are.
There's pros and cons of both,but it really does come back to
who you're trying to target andhow much they overlap as well.
So some other examples toconsider.
You know you have Elon andTesla.

(30:53):
You know you're seeing howTesla is tanking based on the
popularity of Elon going down.
But likewise, you know Virginand Rich and Branson.
You know he has dozens ofcompanies, and you know Virgin
and Rich and Branson.
You know he has dozens ofcompanies and his personal brand
has more followers than all ofthose companies combined.
So there's different ways ofthinking about it, but at the

(31:15):
end of the day, people connectwith people and that's why
personal brands are much moreimportant, in my opinion.

Josh Hall (31:21):
Did you ever have like JacobCastcom?
Did you ever run design stuffthrough just you as a freelancer
?

Jacob Cass (31:29):
No, it's always been through.

Josh Hall (31:30):
Just.

Jacob Cass (31:30):
Creative.
So that's just the brand nameand there's pros and cons of
that which we could talk into.
But yeah, it comes back to howyou're positioned, who you're
trying to target and also yourother companies.
So how closely are they related?
And, you know, do you want tomanage multiple accounts or do
you want to manage one?

Josh Hall (31:49):
Those sorts of questions, yeah, Well, you set
us up for that Pros and conspersonal brand versus a business
brand.
What are your thoughts on that?

Jacob Cass (31:58):
Yeah, Well, I think everyone has a personal brand,
whether they know it or not, andit's your choice if you want to
grow it or not.
And that comes back to thisidea of branding.
Right, we want to craft thatperception.
So, if you want to be known, ifyou want to have a personal
brand and there's many benefitsof that right your trust goes up

(32:18):
because you're seen as anauthority, you have influence.
That's the idea behind apersonal brand.
And if you show that you knowyour stuff, then that's going to
feed into your agency orwhatever else you're growing as
well.
So I see it as a huge plus tohave a personal brand, because
it's going to elevate yourcompany and any other services
that you offer and anything elseyou bring out in the future as

(32:41):
well.
That's why branding is soimportant.
It's a long-term play.
It shows that you're anauthority, you have influence,
and that builds the trust andyou're going to have a much
easier time selling whateveryou're selling or whatever
endeavor you're going on about.
So that's how I see it.
The cons is that if you havetwo, you have to run two at the

(33:03):
same time and that takes moreeffort.
But the personal side is muchmore personal and the company is
a little bit more buttoned upand you have to be a bit more
formal, I guess, in a way.
So there's those sorts ofnuances that you have to be
careful of and how youcommunicate and so forth.

(33:26):
So yeah, there's a whole bunchof things we could tuck into,
but I think that's a good highlevel.

Josh Hall (33:33):
Well, I think you've done it good for future
endeavors because you're adrifter with the fact that you
are very prevalent on your, yourbusiness site.
So if you were to, like, dosomething completely outside of
even the design world, I wouldimagine your name could, like
you could remove your name andyou would still be known like,
you would still have a followingoutside of just your, your,

(33:55):
your main business, the mainproduct.
I'm curious, though, like ifyou were to do you're in sydney.
So if you do like I don't knowjacob cast, you know boats or
something, or surf or whateverlike, if you, if you did
something that's completelyoutside of design a passion
project or whatever would youbuy a new business name for it?

(34:16):
Or would you do like a jacobcast, like completely personal
brand?

Jacob Cass (34:21):
approach it'll probably be like just boats or
just keep the just the just uhpart of it all, right all right.
yeah, I think there's some legsthere, um, in terms of the
system.
So, yeah, that could be oneidea, but it it, at the end of
the day, you have to look atthis strategy in terms of who
you're trying to connect withand who you're up against.

(34:42):
Because if there's yeah,there's so many nuances and I
think, if we just want to tie itto our name, there's a bit of
ego to that as well it may notnecessarily be right for what
you're trying to do, but there'salso brands that do this quite
well.
You know, virgin comes to mindand you know, but, yeah, who

(35:02):
knows?

Josh Hall (35:03):
That's good.
Yeah, I like the just just.
You keep the just justflamingos, your flamingo shop,
confuse everybody.
Uh, yeah, it is interesting.
I mean I remember toiling withthis when I started doing online
education because my my webdesign business was a business
name in transit studios, and I'mreally glad I did that in
hindsight because I was able tosell it in 2020.

(35:24):
And then when I it's so funny,we're really diving into this
because I was recently thinkingabout that time and whether I
wanted to go full into a brandname for my online education or
just personal brand, because Iwas all in on Divi and I had
bought DiviWebDesignerscom.
I had started the Divi WebDesigners Facebook group, which

(35:45):
is still one of the biggest Divi, and I had bought
DiviWebDesignerscom.
I had started the Divi WebDesigners Facebook group, which
is still one of the biggest Divigroups out there.
I was pretty much all on boardwith going all in on Divi Web
Designers.
But now I use Circle.
I still use Divi.
It's a part of my tool stack,but I'm serving web designers
using platforms other thanWordPress.
Now too, in hindsight, I'm soglad I chose to go with a

(36:05):
personal name, just because Ididn't know where it was going
to lead.
And then I for me personally, Ifinally landed and found the
name Web Designer Pro andrealized like this really
encapsulates what I'm doing overhere.
So that's going to be its ownthing, and I'm kind of moving
towards keeping joshhallco a bitopen-ended, more as me as an

(36:26):
entrepreneur, not out ofboastfulness or pride, but just
out of purely optionality, likeI don't know actually what
joshhallco is going to look likein the next five to 10 years.
I don't have a vision exactlyfor that because I'm a bit of a
drifter too.
I know that Web Designer Pro iswhat I do here.
That is super clear there.
But now I'm doing brandpartnership deals and getting a

(36:48):
little more into entrepreneurialconsulting and community
building, which I wasn'tanticipating at all.
I'm getting flooded withquestions and consulting options
for community building and I'mlike I really yeah, thank
goodness I didn't limit myself.
So all that to say, say I think, for anyone deciding, I think
that's we've probably outlinedsome pros and cons and good
ideas to think about the pride,the, the selling aspect is

(37:12):
something important to consideras well.

Jacob Cass (37:14):
I didn't bring that up before.
If you're building an agency orsomething else that has your
name attached to it, it's it'sgoing to be harder to sell that
with your personal name.
There are some nuances aroundthat, like if it was like a last
name, for example, that was alittle bit more abstract.
But you know your future.
What am I trying to say?

(37:34):
Like the fact that you may wantto sell in the future is
important to consider.

Josh Hall (37:39):
Yeah, and I think we see that in, like brick and
mortar stores and blue collarbusinesses, to where a family
business may keep the name going, but I don't know how many
online entrepreneurs arethinking about an online
business as like a familybusiness.
You know what I mean.
Like I don't know what yourplans with kiddo, with your

(37:59):
kiddos and family are, but itseems like that's different.
Like I worked with a companycalled Terrier Steel third
generation Terrier.
Like I was working with a thirdgeneration, their dads, grandpa
, you know, their grandpastarted it back in the teens or
something like that, and theyserved both world wars and they
had an incredible rich historyand you know it was like a proud

(38:20):
family thing.
I don't know if, like, my kidsare going to grow up and you
know it was like a proud familything.
I don't know if, like, my kidsare going to grow up and you
know, take on the web designbusiness podcast as a, as a
proud, I don't know maybe thatwould be pretty cool, but I
don't know, it was like a hugelysuccessful business, like a
steel business, and you'regetting.

Jacob Cass (38:36):
You know you have a huge inheritance.
There's a lot of motivation tokeep it going.

Josh Hall (38:47):
So I get, so I get that maybe less, much less so
for like a podcast and webagency kind of this is no
offense to us.
I mean, hey, if web designerpro makes it three generations
like that freaking awesome yes,it would be although in 50 years
, I'm sure, I don't know whatthe term web designer would be.
They'd be like oh, you used tobuild websites.
That's adorable, as they'relike, you know, in virtual
headland or something I don'tknow.

Jacob Cass (39:08):
Or like typesetters.
I can't even like I've seensome old typesetting for
newspapers and like imaginedoing that as a job.
I just can't imagine it somanual.
Anyway, that's what they'regoing to be saying.
In 50 years, we could just liketype in, you know in from our
voice, like, hey, siri, make usa website for this brand, create
us a logo.

Josh Hall (39:32):
And then boom done, it is Well speaking of AI and
technology.
Now how is that filteredthrough in the brand world?
I mean, I think, like good luckAI trying to help a brand with
all the things we talked about.

Jacob Cass (39:43):
I mean it can do some things, but yeah, ai in
particular and it's a prettybroad term.
But in terms of, like you know,gpt, I've created custom bots
and experimented heavily withthat.
I use it every day chat, gptand similar tools.
Did you do that for?

Josh Hall (40:01):
ideation and ideas.

Jacob Cass (40:03):
Ideation, copyright, copyright and improving my um,
my ideas and the.
I've also used it for gen ai,so you know mood boards, uh logo
ideas as well, and createdcustom gpts for those particular
things because I found thedefault settings were just is
horrible.
But in terms of where it'sgoing in branding, I think it's

(40:28):
going to be very powerful interms of strategy and helping
inform decisions using syntheticdata this is something I
learned from Mark Ritsonrecently and inputting data to
create scenarios to providefeedback on a particular
strategy right, so it's going tohelp with making decisions.

(40:50):
This is like the strategic sideof branding.
On the visual side of things,it's already helping.
You know we've seen ads fromCoca-Cola that are purely
AI-generated and ads are comingout with AI in them, even movies
.
So things are definitelyshifting in terms of the visuals
, but also on the strategic sideas well.

(41:11):
Something that's for everyonenow is the ideation getting
feedback, getting ideas andpumping out content that's much
faster than it was before likeincredibly fast.
But there's also cons of that,like there's just so much junk
out there and really things areshifting in terms of having
information these days.

(41:32):
It's what you should be sharingabout how you do things and
your perspective and your storyand how you approach things, not
just here's some information,because the barrier to entry is
so low.
Now that sort of information isso readily available that
people are pumping out thebasics and they can seem like an
expert by just using, like somecopy that they've grabbed from

(41:54):
ChatGPT.
So I think these days we haveto show our expertise and how we
do things based on thatinformation.
So that's the shift I see atthe moment.

Josh Hall (42:06):
Well, I'll give you a real world example of that.
Last year I did a few videosfor Circle on how I use it to
build my community Web CenterPro and I looked, I did a little
bit of research on like otherCircle videos that were
comparable and similar and itwas a lot of what you just said.
It was just basic, bland.
Like you could tell, theyeither rushed it or they just

(42:26):
did some chat GPT and looked atsome of the top features and a
lot of them are similar as otherones.
So I just completely did likehere's exactly how I do it, this
is how I'm running it today andthose are the top videos.
Now, when you search CircleOnline Platform or Circle
Community Builder, Circle SL andthat's where I'm getting a lot
of these leads for a communityconsult, consulting now and I

(42:47):
only say that to say real worldexperience stories and, like you
said, Jason or Jacob, yourexperience, your story, like
that is what resonates.
That.
That is that is the key tostand out from AIs.
I really love that you hit onthat because I feel like you
know, in branding and design,anyone could look up ChatGPT and

(43:10):
get some help, but Jacob has acertain way of doing things and
you, more importantly, havedecades now of experience with
being in this industry, whichaccounts for a lot.

Jacob Cass (43:23):
So, yeah, good reminder.
I'm completely on board withthat.

Josh Hall (43:25):
So, yeah, enough said on that yeah, well, I mean,
that's the biggie, I think, fordesigners too.
I think we need to know, like,what do you tell clients when
clients say, are you worriedabout ai?
Or can I get a tool to justbuild a website for me?
The real question is, how canyou defend yourself from ai?
How can designers you know beon the front lines against AI
and defend themselves?

Jacob Cass (43:46):
How can we defend ourselves?
Well, if clients are coming toyou saying like I can go to AI
for this, let them do that, letthem go.

Josh Hall (43:54):
Come back in three weeks.

Jacob Cass (43:55):
Yeah, they're not the clients for you.
So, you know, I'm prettytransparent with clients sharing
that I'm using AI to improvethe process, or I'll show like
this image is being created withAI, but we can, you know,
purchase an image or getphotography done, so it's just
being transparent with it.
But, yeah, I don't think AI istaking our jobs anytime soon,

(44:18):
like the bottom rung definitely,but not for, you know, the
creative thinkers and thestrategic thinkers, the folks
higher up the ladder, I think,are quite safe.

Josh Hall (44:29):
How are you on time?
By the way, Jacob, Do you havea hard stop at the top of the
hour?
I'm in test.

Jacob Cass (44:32):
No man, I could talk shop all day.
But up to you, my friend.

Josh Hall (44:36):
Cool, cool, we'll keep it Rogan style and just go
for three or four.
Yeah, no, I just wanted to hiton a couple other things here,
because we're touching a lot ofreally important topics.
I'm sure you see this as you'rementoring designers and stuff.
But what do you see?
Like I think on that point, Iwanted to ask for folks who want

(44:56):
to know from somebody who'sbeen in the industry for a while
, like you have, what do youforesee over the next, maybe
know if you could forecast, evenif we look at the next three to
five years, with all the otherstuff we've talked about, like I
guess the question I have foryou is, like what do you see?
Where do you see designers andpredictors?
How do how do they stand outover the next few years?

(45:17):
Is it what you just mentioned,like becoming a thinker and
becoming more of a strategist,with all these things in the mix
?
What do you?

Jacob Cass (45:24):
yeah, I think we can become more strategic for sure
as designers and not just beorder takers.
Right, you know, do this, youknow, give, get a brief, do this
.
I think that you know it canwork for some if you're super
talented, but the basics aregoing to are already eroding,
right.
And when I say the basics, likepeople are going to canva and
online marketplaces and gettingjust graphics completed on the

(45:48):
cheap on the fly and that kindof work is eroding.
So you're, we're kind of beingforced to go up the value chain
in terms of becoming morestrategic and becoming a partner
with a client, versus justexecuting on a brief like create
me a flyer, create me a logo,because you have to consider

(46:09):
that once they've, once you'vecompleted that project, you're
going to get back on.
You have to get back on theflywheel again and start
marketing, get new clients andit's just it's.
It's a tough place to be in.
So if you want to be have amore of a sustainable business
you're if you want to have amore sustainable business,
you're going to have to go upthat rung and become more
strategic.
And there's many ways you cando that and you could go all in

(46:32):
on brand strategy, or you couldjust become a little bit more
strategic and learn more aboutbusiness and marketing and the
cross-section of that, and howit works with brands and how
they grow.
Or if it's on the website, um,how it works in with their
business, how how can they uhconnect with the customer on a
deeper level those sorts ofbigger questions.
If you can advise on that andhelp your clients and sell that

(46:54):
through, you're going to have amuch more uh, much easier time
with your, your business.
So that's where I see thingsgoing.
Also, uh, communities, I think,are going to be huge.
There's just so much noise andshallow conversations going on
on, you know, social mediaplatforms.
You know little emoji great job.

(47:15):
You know there's no realconnection.
It's just like likes and taps,and I think people are thriving,
uh are really looking for thatconnection and feedback and
guidance, and that's where Ithink communities are really
going to excel in the comingyears, where that connection is
more prevalent and you can getthat feedback and guidance
versus just some shallowconversations.

Josh Hall (47:37):
Perfect segue into what you have going on, because
I wanted to ask about.
Well, first of all, I'm kind ofcurious what made you dip your
toe into the community world,because community is hard like I
don't know what your experiencehas been so hard so far, but it
is not for the faint of heartit's.
I've sold a lot of things andI'd say that community is
potentially maybe the hardestthing to to build.

(47:59):
I agree with you mate.

Jacob Cass (48:01):
It is bloody hard because the reason why is that
it's ongoing, it never ends andeveryone has a different
understanding of value.
People are there for differentreasons.
You have people that are superengaged, they're super users,
they attend everything, theyabsorb everything.
You have the lurkers.
You have the commenters.
Everyone has a different way ofinteracting.

(48:22):
Some people may come there oncea month, other people every day
, right, so how do you providevalue to those sorts of
different members?
You have to have different waysof providing that value,
whether it be live workshops orreplays, or resources or
checking in or havingaccountability, like there's so

(48:43):
many different levers you haveto pull to really get that value
across to each individual,especially if it's a paid
membership.
You have to really be dialedinto each member and I think,
yeah, it is hard, and how I gotinto it was during COVID.
I started two masterminds andwell, I started one and that

(49:06):
sold out very quickly, so Istarted a second one at the same
time.
So we had like a pro group anda beginner group or emerging
group, I should say, and that Idid that for two years through
COVID.
Every single week I ran amastermind and we had that
connection because we're stuckindoors.
And that led into building acommunity for designers and that

(49:27):
went really well.
But I kind of burned out alittle bit and lost the passion
for it because I set the price abit too low for the amount of
work that was required and Itotally underestimated the work
involved.
So that was my mistake.
But I learned from that.
And then I ran a summitrecently and from that I learned

(49:52):
what creators are reallylooking for, what designers are
really looking for, had a lot ofconversations, got a lot of
feedback, ran surveys and justtried to understand what people
really really wanted out of acommunity and out of a
membership.
And that segued into my latestrelease, which is called the
Brand Builders Alliance, whichis a community membership for

(50:14):
brand builders so designers,strategists, entrepreneurs,
marketers who want to masterbranding first off and also
build a thriving, creativebusiness.
So there's a lot of communitiesout there that focus on one or
the other like here you canlearn branding, here you can
learn business, but there's nonethat can like join them.
And I found this sweet spot forbrand builders that you know

(50:34):
they're creative servicebusiness professionals and they
love brand, but they'regenerally on their own and they
want a community to connect withand grow with and learn from.
So that's where this BrandBuilders Alliance came from and,
yeah, it's going really reallywell, loving the feedback coming
in and people are enjoying theexperience.
So it was really aboutlistening to what people are

(50:57):
looking for, finding a gap inthe market and building for that
.
And, yeah, that's how I gotinto community and, yes, it's
still a lot of work.
I have a team working with menow to help with all the members
and the marketing.
Well, actually, I'm still doingthe marketing, but, like the
community management side, Ineeded a lot of help on.

(51:18):
So, yeah, I'll leave it at that.

Josh Hall (51:21):
Yeah, because you said earlier you're still a
lifestyle designer strategistdoing a lot yourself but for the
community, did you feel, didyou learn pretty quickly on with
those masterminds that youneeded to get some, some paid
help and some team help withthat?

Jacob Cass (51:37):
The masterminds were easy, to be honest.
It was you attended or you hadone set time a week and you
attended and you kind of didlike hot seat kind of coaching,
and that was easy becauseeveryone had an attention.
You came to talk and you left.
The community side of things.
You have your content, you havethe forum, you have discussions

(51:57):
boards, you have membersmessaging each other.
People are there for like otherreasons, right, everyone has
different reasons.
So I find the community alittle bit more challenging
because of that.

Josh Hall (52:09):
That's a good point.
I've absolutely, absolutely,100% found that as well.
Last year I went to a tieredmodel for Web Designer Pro.
One of the main reasons wasbecause of that, because it
started with just all my courses, the community and coaching all
in one, with just one offer.
And then I just found so manypeople who were like I just want

(52:30):
, I just need the courses for alittle bit.
Or some people were like I'mjust all about the community,
like courses are great and Ineed coaching every once in a
while, but I really just wantthe community.
And some people are like I justwant Josh.

Jacob Cass (52:48):
I just want, josh, I just want to DM you when I have
questions.
Maybe it's in the course,that's fine, but I just want to
DM you.
So now there's an option forall three.
I think that may be in thefuture as well, having a lower
tier offering that doesn't havecoaching and the live events
just has the content available.
But really right now I'mfocused on the community aspect
and making those connections andthat's what people are really
looking for, at least from mysurveys and things.
So that's the focus now.

(53:10):
Eventually, once it grows, Ithink, past the 200 person mark,
that's when I'd open up it tolike a lower tier.
But yeah, we're not there justyet.

Josh Hall (53:21):
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
I mean, that's how I did itwith Pro as well.
If I was advising you, I'd say,yeah, if it's, if it's working
and it's more of the high tiermembers right now and that's
what's thriving definitely buildthat up, cause, yeah, you get a
wave of their.
The early stagers, the what didyou call me Emergers?
Um, it's a different ball game.

(53:48):
It's a.
If you're supporting them inany form of coaching and stuff,
that's it's.
It's even more so timeintensive, because they're
generally the ones who have thetime to like be really active
and ask the questions.
And, uh, you're shaking yourhead, I know you've seen that as
well.
It's.
It's the people who are moreexperienced who generally dip in
to like get what they need, andthen they're busy, um, whereas,
yeah, they're early stagers.
Yeah, you need, like, yeah, youjust need a support system for
them.

Jacob Cass (54:02):
Otherwise you take it on yourself.
They're the ones that come inand absorb everything.
They're very active and theyhave more time, as you said.
And the advanced people?
They probably come in and watchthe replay at 2x speed, duck in
and then come back and see anevent they want and then RSVP to
that and then you won't seethem for a little bit.

(54:25):
So that's how it goes and that'sexactly what I was referring to
, like with the different valuesand the different um, uh, I
guess levels of experience isreally important and, like I,
when I positioned this, I wasreally tiering it to
intermediate, to advanced oreven mental level pros.
But in that process you do geta lot of, you know, really

(54:47):
passionate, ambitious, emergingcreatives that want to level up
faster.
So we did a survey and weliterally have 25% of every
single kind of level inside,which I think is good because it
allows this cross-section anice cross-section.
But I'd love to hear fromallows this cross section a nice

(55:07):
cross section?
But I'd love to hear from youhow you manage the advanced folk
and give value to them but alsofor others as well.

Josh Hall (55:15):
It's a very tough line to balance, for sure.
What's interesting in myexperience with Pro is I did the
same thing.
I ran a survey last year and Ican't tell you how helpful that
was, because we got like realfeedback and real data and what
I learned was we actually hadalmost 50% of what was in our
pro were the like emergers insome sense.

(55:35):
But because of the way it wasstructured, they made progress
so fast.
So some of them, within sixmonths to a year, were either on
track or already exceeded a sixfigure business.
And then suddenly they're likethey're a pro, like very good.
One of my members she just inover, just over a year just had
her first eight K month comingfrom no design experience last

(55:57):
year.
So I didn't like the.
The challenge that I had was toseparate the two.
I was like I don't want toseparate them completely.
It's a wonderful mixture, butyou don't want the beginners to
take over all the forums andthen leave the advanced folks
out.
You don't want all the advancedpeople talking advanced stuff
and the beginners are like, ohmy God, what did I get into?
So it is really tricky, I think, for every community that is

(56:21):
balancing beginners withadvanced folk you do have to
kind of strike a healthy chordand maybe just have segmented
places or segmented forums wherethe advanced folks know where
the advanced folks are and theycan talk.

Jacob Cass (56:34):
The fact you're saying I was literally just
having this conversation with mymanager, like what?
So segmenting was like it couldbe good, but then I also don't
necessarily want to segment,because I want the beginners to
learn from the advanced people.
But like is segmentingsomething you've done?

Josh Hall (56:51):
So I've experimented a couple ways with that, but
what has worked really well isby just having a coaching tier,
which is mainly just the moreestablished folks.
Some emergers can get in there.
But, um, it's priced at a pointwhere, like, it's 200 a month
right now.
So for folks who are justcutting their teeth in design,
that's not sustainable typically.

(57:12):
So what I've found is they'rethe ones who are coming to our
weekly group coaching calls andthey're the ones who have direct
DM access to me.
So those two metrics alone havehelped me keep track of the
more advanced folk and thenthey're just naturally
connecting with each other.
So we don't really havededicated forums yet right now.

(57:33):
It's something I may thinkabout.
But, to your point, I don'twant a bunch of really good
chatter over here that the restof the community can't see.
So it's worked out really well.
But those two things directcoaching with me and then our
weekly group coaching calls,which only the coaching tier
gets that is what has helped me,like retain the folks who are

(57:54):
of that caliber, yeah, andthere's probably a lot of ways
to go about it, but that'sdefinitely, you know, what
worked for me, with being ableto do it without say you know,
without saying like, oh, nope,not allowed, you're not to this
point yet, which I did not wantto do okay, nice, good to know
cool well, I'm sure we can talkshop on community.

Jacob Cass (58:14):
Oh yeah, maybe off offline.
But um, yeah, a lot to say onthat and a lot to learn as well.

Josh Hall (58:19):
Yeah well, I think we're all.
I think, with community, it'slike we're all learning.
I think with community, it'slike we're all learning.
I mean no one you know sincewhen, like no one can say
they're a community expert.
I feel like, because it'sreally fairly new in the sense
of community now, like youmentioned, versus like it's not
a 20,000 person Facebook group.
Community is a very differentthing, different beast by nature
, but it is awesome.

(58:40):
Like it really, once it startsto cook and become its own thing
.
It really is incredible, my, mypersonal involvement is much
more low low key than it wasthree or four years ago.

Jacob Cass (58:50):
Yeah, I love to hear that.
Um and yeah, just seeing likemembers started, like members
creating events and interacting,that's like it's so rewarding
to see that and that's whatcommunity is about.
And it's not like a facelessFacebook group where it's just
like you're another number andI've grown huge six-figure
Facebook groups and theengagement is so low and people

(59:16):
don't see each other and thecomments are just like they just
get hidden.
It's silly, right?
It just doesn't make sense.
Why would you build up acommunity that doesn't?
You know there's no crosspollination at all.

Josh Hall (59:30):
Yeah, and you have to love people like you really do.
I mean, I get that sense fromyou.
I don't think you would havedipped your toe into a true
community unless you reallywanted to help somebody, because
you could have easily just donebrand services and then high
ticket masterminds and did alittle bit of coaching.
You have to really love peopleand love seeing their progress.

(59:50):
As a community builder.
I've seen a lot of peoplealready get into it and I'm like
you should probably just be acreate, like a creator or a
product person or like yeah,like yeah it takes a certain way
to love it and you know I onlygot into coaching during COVID
and yeah, like, yeah, it takes acertain amount of time.

Jacob Cass (01:00:04):
You definitely have to love it and you know, I only
got into coaching during COVID,but I really loved it.
And to see the impact andtransformation of people I think
is really powerful, and that'sone of the biggest values is
empowering others, and communityis a great, great way to do
that.
So, yes, absolutely, you dohave to have a passion for it.
You also have to price thingsappropriately to get the to

(01:00:28):
reinvest right For a communitymanager and your time as well
and that's the mistake I made inthe beginning is just I
underestimated the time involved, and you know all the value,
what were the?

Josh Hall (01:00:40):
what were the time sucks for you?
I'm just curious Was it yourpersonal engagement and posts
and coaching and support?
What was?

Jacob Cass (01:00:49):
probably that I'd give too much, that I spend too
much time there and want to helpeveryone the constant wheel of
either understanding the value,getting events sorted and

(01:01:09):
marketing as well and for thereturn, that I wasn't as much as
I was hoping for when you knowyou have so many other lucrative
things that can be done rightversus helping people, which I
love to do.
But you know there has to be agood balance and I've learned
from that mistake.
I've spoken to consultantsabout my challenges with the

(01:01:31):
past community and I've overcomethem for well, working on
overcoming many of them for thisnext phase in terms of getting
rid of the things I well,getting rid of the things I
don't enjoy, posting replays andjust getting systems in place
and those sorts of things itjust took some thinking about

(01:01:52):
what was working, what wasn'tworking, what I liked, what I
didn't like, and then creating aplan on how to actually make
something that I do enjoy andcan provide max value to the
customers.

Josh Hall (01:02:05):
Well, I think it's good that you came into the
community world as a seasonedentrepreneur, because everything
you just said there I know youlearned with your business.
I think somebody like gettinginto business as a community
builder like I would run anagency well before I started a
community.
For sure, Just cause you'll,you'll, you'll cut your teeth

(01:02:27):
better.

Jacob Cass (01:02:29):
It's funny you say that, because I've never really
had the inkling to build anagency.
I've always just wanted to belike a soul, like a lone wolf
kind of soul flyer.
But when it comes to thecommunity it's like the complete
opposite.
It's like you, you're gettingmore team members and you have
more people in that you have tohelp.
So it's kind of like well, Ithink it's it's a different.

Josh Hall (01:02:49):
Uh, it's a different mechanism too, because when
you're a service provider, youcan stay a solopreneur and niche
down and have higher rates andliterally just work with less,
but like there's just lesspeople you're talking to.
But as a community builder,even if you're not coaching them
one-on-one, you're still.
There's still like a hundredpeople in your mind or you see
them all the time and it's itjust takes more bandwidth.

(01:03:11):
So I definitely have learnedthat as well.
It's even different as a coursecreator.
I mean, I had over 2000 studentsin my courses, just the courses
alongside my community, and Isee their names when they order,
but I don't really know them, Idon't know their story, I don't
know where they're at in theirbusiness pros and cons to that
and.
But yeah, it's a wholedifferent world when you have

(01:03:32):
them together and you start tosee people and you get to know
them, and then it's awesome.
But it's also literally it'slike a bandwidth filler.
So, to your point, I thinkthat's what people underestimate
.
It's like every new communitymember, depending on their level
of engagement, is, I don't know, maybe a half an hour to an
hour more of your time a week.

(01:03:52):
So you do that at scale.
That's where people get intotrouble.

Jacob Cass (01:04:01):
Yeah, that's why the lessons I learned last time and
that's why I have a communitymanager and I'm training to help
with that sort of thing as well.
So, provide max value to themembers is the biggest thing I'm
trying to train them on, and wehave like a whole system, like
a member lifestyle trackingsystem that we've put in place
to understand what each memberis looking for, what type of

(01:04:22):
member they are.
Have they engaged?
Have they filled in their forwhat?
You know how?
What type of member they are,have they engaged?
Have they filled in theironboarding form?
Like, have we sent them acheck-in DM?
Like we've got a system inplace and that's helping a lot.
So, with the bandwidth in yourmind, because you don't have to
remember it, we have, like wehave someone else like doing it,
which?

Josh Hall (01:04:39):
is that's killer?
Are you using Circle?
What are you using?
What's your tool?

Jacob Cass (01:04:41):
stack.
We are using Circle and thenAirtable for a database.

Josh Hall (01:04:44):
Gotcha Cool.
Yeah, it's fascinating, man.
I mean I just chatted withChris Doe recently and he's kind
of in the same boat.
They're figuring out theircommunity too, which is very
small.
It's funny because somebody ofChris Doe's stature is running a
community that's smaller thanmine and it's a similar price
point.
I like, wow, that's kind ofwild to think about.
I mean, it's a different, bitof a different is this the pro

(01:05:05):
group you mean?
yeah, it's pro group.
Yeah, it's pro groups like 250people.
Um, yeah, and it's, I think,250 a month, so it's very
comparable.
Um, so it's kind of interestingjust all that to say, like
somebody of that magnitude andscale online is is still
probably intentionally running asmaller community like that.

Jacob Cass (01:05:23):
Yeah, I've heard different theories on this and
the idea of community, likelarger communities, you lose the
connection and that's thedouble-edged sword.
It's like if you grow to thatsize, how do you actually
provide value and give thecoaching support you need to
each member needs when you havethat many people?
Yeah, so I've spoken to people,have been part of it.

(01:05:46):
There's a lot of great contentin there, but they just lack
that kind of like close support.
Yeah, and that's why they'vemoved on as well.
So it really depends on whatyou're looking for.
I think that would be a reallygreat place for someone like
early in their career, wherethey just consume all the the
content but may not necessarilyget all the guidance that they
need.

Josh Hall (01:06:06):
Yeah, I can't say too much cause I haven't been in
there, but from what I gatherit's more of the intermediate.
It's kind of cause he wants toget people.
He told me in our chat that hewants to get people to 20 K a
month recurring.
So that's pretty like that's.

(01:06:34):
You know, that's like a meat,that's like an intermediate,
that that's pretty, like youcould still retain closeness and
that's kind of the balance I'vestruck with.
Pro.
250 to 500 is like you're goingto need to probably really be

(01:06:55):
intentional about grouping andmaking sure people are aligned
with who they can find easilyand they know who the people who
are there most are 500 to 1000is.
I think that would still beconsidered a smaller community
they can find easily and theyknow who the the people who are
there most are 500 or a thousandis.
I think that would still beconsidered a smaller community
compared to others, but I thinkover a thousand is like I don't
know if I would run a communityover a thousand.

Jacob Cass (01:07:16):
Yeah you know what I mean.
We've worked at ours max, at200.
That's our maximum and just tokeep things close, close knit.
But I agree with you, it's,there's challenges that come
with the scaling of it yeah,interesting.

Josh Hall (01:07:31):
Well, like I said, we could rip on this all day, so,
but this has been great.
I love chatting community,obviously, yeah, man.
Uh, well, jacob, it's beengreat.
Dude, thank you so much foryour time today and, uh, I
really enjoyed getting to hearyour story and how this has
played out for you.
Some really really solid,timely thoughts about personal
brand and and a more you know,business brand and branding in
general, how that all lays outtogether.

(01:07:53):
So, yeah, where should peoplego?

Jacob Cass (01:07:56):
Yeah, um, if people want to connect with me, just
creativecom is my main website.
There is a freebie on therecalled the Branding Briefcase.
A pop-up will come up todownload it.
There's a whole bunch of thingsin there for designers,
creatives, branders, e-books andPSD files and scripts and all
that sort of stuff is for free,obviously in exchange for an

(01:08:18):
email address.
The Brand Builders Alliancecommunity you can visit at
joinbbacom to learn more.
It's for brand builders andcreative service business
professionals and, yeah, I'dlove to connect with you If you
have further questions.
I'm pretty active on Instagramand LinkedIn and email as well.

Josh Hall (01:08:38):
Heck, yeah, man.
Where did the flamingo come, bythe way?

Jacob Cass (01:08:41):
The flamingo.
Yes, just creative has a 3dmascot flamingo, uh, for for our
brand.
And yeah, it just came from afew years ago.
Um, it came out, it uh.
Our brand has always been pinksince like 2007.
And I recently did a job for aclient and they had a mascot and
I was like we didn't, we didn'thave a mascot, what would it be

(01:09:03):
for our brand?
And I just put it out thererandomly, like sharing Flamingo
photos, and like, oh, this iscool, and if I was doing like a
Photoshop mock-up or something,I'd use a Flamingo.
And everyone just startedsending me Flamingo things.
This reminded me of you, thisreminded me of you, and this
Flamingo really got stuck inpeople's minds.
So it kind of just became asmall mascot for a couple of

(01:09:26):
years, just on the side.
Whenever I was like creatingthings in AI or experimenting,
I'd use the flamingo and justshare that and it stuck.
And then AI came about and Ijust created all these hundreds
of different mascots to find theone that could actually suit
for our brand.
And then I found one and thenhired a human to actually bring

(01:09:48):
it to life like a 3D model andwe animated it and we're
actually printing a 3D model ofit now.

Josh Hall (01:09:54):
Oh cool.

Jacob Cass (01:09:55):
Yeah, so that's where I came from and we kind of
leaned into it more and we havesome fun phrases like stand the
flock out, let's flaming go,and there's a lot of puns you
can have with.

Josh Hall (01:10:06):
Oh, oh, dude, the dad , the dad puns are endless, yeah
yeah, absolutely has a lot oflegs, that's yeah, there, it is
all right.
Well, we're off the rails now,so that'll probably be good, but
great stuff, man.

Jacob Cass (01:10:18):
That was awesome all right, thanks you guys.

Josh Hall (01:10:22):
All right, friends.
Well, I hope you enjoyed thisone.
I would love to hear if thisgave you some clarity or helped
you at least figure out how toposition yourself if you're
doing both branding andmarketing and design altogether.
Leave us a comment atjoshhallco, slash 376, which is
where the show notes for thisepisode will be, along with all
of the notes and links wementioned.
And again, you can go check outJacob at his website, just

(01:10:46):
creativecom.
Links to all his socials and toconnect with him will be both
there and the show notes forthis episode.
So a big thanks to Jacob forcoming on here on this one and
for sharing.
Look at somebody who's been inthe industry as long as he has,
and as a total pro, I think it'ssuper cool to see how they're
continuing to evolve as well inthis industry of design, whether

(01:11:06):
it's web, whether it's graphic,whether it's branding or all of
the above.
So can't wait to hear how thisone helped you out.
All right, friends, I will seeyou on the next episode or via
the comments at joshhallco,slash 376.