379 - Selling Growth Plans (& Transformation) for Web Designers in 2025 with Shannon Mattern

Recently, my friend Shannon Mattern interviewed me on her The Profitable Web Designer podcast all about what's working well for web designers killing it in 2025.

She's kindly offered to let me repurpose the whole convo for you! 

It's a bit of a 2-parter with part 1 being all about becoming more than just a web designer for clients, but a growth partner for bigger MRR (monthly recurring revenue)

Part 2 covers more of what I went through in pivoting from selling information to selling transformation. Very parallel to web designers moving from selling a nice website design to selling a high-converting sales tool for clients. All the same lessons apply.

Enjoy!

Episode Transcript

Shannon (00:02):
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast with
your host, Josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.

Josh (00:14):
So I was recently interviewed by my friend,
Shannon Mattern, who is a fellowweb design business coach.
She is the founder of the WebDesigner Academy and she had me
on her podcast, which is theProfitable Web Designer Podcast,
and we talked a lot aboutessentially selling results and
how to leverage higher offers,what's working right now with

(00:36):
supporting clients and growthplans and really just what's
working for web designers in2025.
And I had a really good timechatting with her and she was
kind enough to let me repurposethat conversation for you.
So here it is, my conversationwith Shannon Maddern, again
originally aired on theProfitable Web Designer Podcast.
You can check Shannon out bygoing to webdesigneracademycom

(01:00):
if you'd like to find out moreabout her and how she's helping
web designers as a fellow webdesign business coach.
So let's have some fun and talkabout what's working right now
to help you excel in 2025 andway beyond my web designer
friend.
All right, here we go.

Shannon (01:22):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Profitable
Web Designer Podcast.
I am joined by my good friend,josh Hall, host of the Web
Design Business Podcast, creatorof the Web Designer Pro
community and the guy that Imeet with coffee for every now
and again to talk web design,business and coaching.

(01:44):
So, josh, welcome back to theProfitable Web Designer Podcast.

Josh (01:48):
My sister from another mister.
It is great to be back.

Shannon (01:52):
So good to see you.
I know we chat all the time andit's been way too long since
we've done a podcast episodetogether, so I'm just really
excited to have you back on theshow.
Because you work with so manyfreelance web designers on the
business side of running theirweb design business, you have

(02:13):
your finger on the pulse ofwhat's going on in the industry
in terms of challenges,opportunities.
I know you went through a bigshift in your business over the
past year.
That maybe seemed a littleprecarious at times, but paid
off for you in a really big way.
So I want to talk about all ofthose things, but before we do,

(02:36):
if there's anyone listening whodoesn't know who you are, can
you briefly share a little bitabout you and what you do?

Josh (02:44):
So I was a freelance web designer for over a decade Used
to be the very quick long shortof it is.
I was actually a drummer in arock band and I was a cabinet
maker by day.
By trade.
I got laid off in 2009.
And just during the days ofbeing a drummer in a rock band,
we were playing shows and I gotinto design and Photoshop and

(03:05):
that led me to doing graphicdesign and starting to do design
work for bands.
And then, as we all knowgenerally, if you get into
design, all roads lead towebsites at some point.
So I just dove into web design,started the days of Dreamweaver
and then got into WordPress andthen built up a little small,
lean mini studio agency andended up teaching a decade later

(03:26):
.
And now my true passion ishelping the Josh of a decade ago
to get to six figures and builda sustainable business.
So that's what I do now, yeah,with most of the focus being on
the business side of web design.

Shannon (03:39):
I love that story and I'll link up to our previous
episode where Josh goes intomore detail about that path and
how he navigated those earlydays and all the things, if you
want to listen to that, to hearthe whole story, because it's
really, really fascinating.
You run a membership community,coaching community for web

(04:05):
designers called Web DesignerPro and you help hundreds of
freelance web designers insidethat community, thousands with
your podcast, with your YouTubechannel.
You really do have your fingeron the pulse of what's going on
in the freelance web designspace.
Can you share with me, like youknow, upon reflection of the

(04:26):
past few years and kind oflooking forward into 2025, what
are some of the biggestopportunities you see for
freelance web designers toreally grow to that six figure
mark and beyond?

Josh (04:41):
What I'm seeing that's working well for the six figure
plus web designers is some sortof growth plan.
So what's interesting aboutthis is an area of like growth
plans for web designers isreally open ended to whatever
you want to do.
It's kind of interestingbecause I built up my agency and

(05:02):
my model around one-off websitepurchases that were generally
anywhere between a few grandupwards to 10 to 20 grand for
larger, more complex sites, andthen it was backed up by
recurring revenue with amaintenance plan, and my
maintenance and hosting planswere anywhere from 75 bucks to a
couple hundred bucks a month ora few hundred bucks for some

(05:22):
clients that were a little moreneedy or intensive.
But what I didn't really I didkind of have this because I did
SEO at the time and I had apartner who did SEO ongoing, but
I really didn't give enoughthought or emphasis to helping
my clients continue to growafter we built their website.
So what I found, particularlyfor the designers who are over

(05:43):
six figures into multi hundredsof six figures like multi six
figures, because I do have somestudents who are now up into
300s, 400s, even 500s.
I've got one student in prowho's over 500.
There is a lot of opportunityin the MRR space the monthly
recurring revenue with some sortof growth plan.
So I have a bit of a frameworkthat I teach in my course, which

(06:05):
is build support grow.
So anything you do to build awebsite or if you do branding
and you're building an onlinepresence, that could go in your
build category.
Support would purely be hostingand support plans or care plans
just off of what the workyou've already done.
But then there's this growthplan option, which is completely
open-ended to whatever a webdesigner wants to do.

(06:26):
If you like SEO, then I wouldseriously consider having some
SEO ongoing plans to help boostup the presence that you've
already built.
If you do digital marketing orsocial media management a lot of
my students are doing emailmarketing and conversion and
lead generation.
Even if you don't know exactlywhat you would want to do in a
growth plan, I would say justhave some sort of strategy like

(06:49):
consultive service.
That's more of a growth plan.
That could be an add-on thatyou offer month to month ongoing
to help you decide what youwant to do.
That's been a very long-windedanswer to say what I've seen
work is to have build supportgrow, but then have your growth
plan be something that isgenerally a pretty big MRR type
of service, but it's veryopen-ended so it can be tricky

(07:11):
and challenging, but it's alsofreaking awesome.

Shannon (07:14):
Yeah, I love that and I think I love how you made the
distinction between support andgrow, because I think what a lot
of web designers want is theywant to build and then they want
that maintenance and support tobe like passive income.
They want it to be like this isjust money coming in.

(07:35):
I don't really have to thinkabout it.
There's not much that I need todo to support and maintain
these websites.
I'm using tools to do it inmass and the level of effort for
that is pretty low and it'spretty low maintenance and you
can get good money coming infrom that.

(07:55):
But to really grow beyond thatnow you have to shift into like
I have some expertise to offerto my clients on an ongoing
basis that is going to help themreach their goals.
And you know, I think thatthat's kind of a that.
What I have seen and I'm socurious what your, what your

(08:18):
students like, what they thinkabout this is like the
roadblocks that we put in ourown way when it comes to like
offering a support plan.
Like who am I to offer this?
What if they don't get results?
I don't want to be dedicatinglike X number of hours to a

(08:39):
bunch of different clients everysingle month.
I don't want to create anotherfull-time job for myself, and so
, um, those are some of thethings that I have heard and I
would say that would that wouldreally hold people back from
really stepping into, um,powerfully offering a growth

(09:03):
plan.
And I'm super curious what aresome of the roadblocks or other
reasons you've heard for peoplekind of like not going for it?

Josh (09:15):
Yeah, most of it is.
Most web designers don't wantto be a digital marketing agency
because you can run the risk ofbeing a full-blown marketing
agency, which has its benefits,especially if you have services
you know well and you havesystems dialed in.
But I didn't want to be adigital marketing agency.
I was just a web designer and,by the way, you can still have a

(09:37):
very healthy six-figure webdesign business and not do any
bit of marketing or ongoingstuff if you wanted to.
It's generally just going to bemore premium and bigger,
probably one-off purchases, oryou could have a subscription
model and just wrap up a $20,000website project in an 18-month
package and build MRR that way.
So there are ways to get aroundit, but I think that's the
biggest one.

(09:57):
They don't want to be afull-stack digital marketing
agency, understandably.
So too.
The time factor is a biggie.
Like you just mentioned, it cangrow legs if you have an MRR
growth plan that is timeintensive.
This is why I actually don'trecommend doing growth plans
when you're starting and untilyou're probably at six figures,

(10:18):
because once you hit six figuresyou have a little more leeway.
I found to decide, like, whatthe next level is and, quite
frankly, when somebody's earlierin the journey as a web
designer you got enough on yourhands to just figure out web
design and basic care plans,like that is enough to get to
six figures.
My model, my support plan, mycare plan got to over 5000 a

(10:40):
month at one point and we weresupporting 75 plus websites.
A lot of my clients had doublewebsites or three brands under
one contract, so I would dodiscounts and stuff.
But that was a really goodmodel for low six figures
because 5k recurring revenuemonth to month and then if you
do one $3,000 website on top ofthat, that's a six-figure

(11:01):
business right there Withongoing work and retainers.
That's a nice low six figures.
But if you want to get past thequarter million range, that's
where I've just seen and itmakes sense that you're doing
higher level stuff for fewerclients at a more higher rate,
like 500 a month or 1000 a month, and those tend to stack up
pretty quick.
So I think that's the challenges, is time, and you you just

(11:23):
don't want to be a full blowndigital marketing agency, but I
would say if you're reallyserious about building your MRR
and you're not necessarily aboutgetting new clients as much as
selling to current clients,which a lot of my pros at that
level are doing right now.
What I found is you probablyhave to decide, like a few

(11:46):
things you're going to do in agrowth plan.
You can't do everything.
You can't do like all theirsocial media, can't do all of
their conversion stuff, alltheir email marketing.
I mean, that is just unless youhave one or two clients doing
that, but then you're kind oflike a part-time employee for
them.
So I think it's finding an areaof specialty that you like
which is the most importantthing, and then double clicking
into that and then offering that.

(12:07):
If it's SEO, if it's emailmarketing, if it's strategy, if
it is like I do.
Alexia, one of my students,really loves.
She's a brand, she does mostlybranding and web design, but she
really loves doing social mediagraphics and ongoing social
media work.
I wouldn't like that at all,but she does fix an ongoing
social media work.
I wouldn't like that at all,but she does so for her.
Her growth plan is a bit of adone with you or a done for you

(12:31):
service that encompasses a lotof ongoing social media.
So yeah, in short, find yourlane, find your skill set and
expertise of what you like andthen that can be your option for
a bigger MRR.

Shannon (12:40):
Yeah, and I feel like if you do wait until you've got
your minimum baseline coveredwith, like you said, support
plans and you've got that comingin, then you'll also have the
resources to have people helpingyou with the delivery of that,
instead of trying to just pileit all onto yourself, which is

(13:03):
what you're super smart you cando it all, you take it all on

(13:29):
and then you find yourself oneemergency away from it all
falling apart because you put itall on you.

Josh (13:37):
Yeah, that's a biggie, I will say most everyone at that
level and at least in WebDesigner Pro, being that I have
a coaching tier, so I have a lotof these conversations and
we're seeing what's working is.
I don't know any of them whoare doing it all by themselves.
They have some sort of team orcontractors behind them and that
may sound scary to some, butthe reality is a lot of that

(13:58):
ongoing work does get timeintensive and look, if you just
have like a dozen clients,that's manageable, probably as a
solo printer or maybe one otheradditional set of hands, but
you can still do it in a leanstudio style way without being
like a huge agency, which isreally cool.
The other thing I'll say too,about growth plans that's
interesting is I found and Ifound this to be a big thing for

(14:22):
me was I would get clients to acertain point and then they
would continue to have me updatethe website, but they just go
elsewhere for more help forgrowth, for marketing help, and
again, you don't necessarilyprobably want to be a digital
marketing agency and do it all,unless that's a model you want,
but it is a shame not to haveyour foot in the door of helping

(14:44):
them grow their businessongoing with their website,
especially considering all roadslead to websites.
So I'd say I really love theopportunity.
Now I think to your point.
Like in the beginning, youwanted to talk about some of the
opportunities.
I really think the opportunityis to be a partner in growth for
your clients, with the websiteas the hub and you supporting

(15:04):
them, and then you have somesort of growth.
Really important distinction,too keeping support plans or
growth plans separate.
I can't stress this enough,because what happens is clients
turn on and off and they ramp upand ramp down marketing
services, but you do not wantthem to turn off hosting and
maintenance.
So it's a little key of gettinghosting for your clients,

(15:26):
because they're not going toturn off their website unless
they're done.
So if you can keep thoseseparate, it's a great way to go
, because you could tell aclient yeah, we could do a 12
month push for email marketingand SEO or whatever we want to
do or blog content creation.
But the support plan, that'swhat we're just doing to support
the current website.
That will remain ongoing.
You can always discount it,though.

(15:47):
If you have a support plan,that's like $99, just discount
like credit that off of yourgrowth plan, potentially without
making you unprofitable fordoing the support stuff.
But, yeah, a huge opportunitythere.
So I hope some of those tipshelp.
That's just what I've seen work.

Shannon (16:01):
Oh yeah, I totally agree with keeping those things
separate, because then you runthe risk of like people like,
let's say, your support planthat you structured has hours in
it.
Then you have people saying, oh, can you just like use some of
my support plan hours to likebuild out this whole new
marketing funnel?
for me and that is not what thatis for, and so it is so

(16:24):
important to be really clearabout what is included, what's
not included, what's a newproject, what's maintaining what
you built versus fixing whatsomeone else broke, like that
third-party contractor that youhired broke versus what's a new
project.
You hired broke versus what's anew project.
And I love the idea of thegrowth plan.

(16:48):
Even like I work justpersonally in my business, I
work with other professionals tohelp me with certain things and
it's not always the same thingevery month, but it is like
conversion rate optimization.
I work with Lee Scott, who'sbeen on your podcast, um, on a

(17:09):
retainer, and what we do everysingle month looks a little bit
different, but it's all basedaround like different ways we
can meet these certain goalsthat we we set for the business
and it's it.
It's fun.
It's fun for her because it'slike a varied work and it's fun
for me because it's just I havesomeone I can trust.

Josh (17:32):
And that's one great.
It's a great way to go aboutLee's model with the conversion
stuff is there's probably a fewdifferent things she's doing as
your conversion rate optimist oroptimizationist Is that a word?
And that's the same way for webdesigners, especially if you do
quite a few things, if you doSEO and some conversion and copy
and you do some email marketing, lead generators.

(17:52):
One thing I've seen work wellis it's almost just like a
retainer of time or a retainerof an action plan, and probably
going into paid discovery andgenerating roadmaps is you can
create, even if you just startwith like a 90-day sprint for a
client to test the waters, youcan create a three-month action
plan.
Maybe one month we doconversion rate optimization,

(18:15):
the next month we do some SEO,or the next month we do some
lead generation or email setup,whatever it looks like.
It is kind of cool to be ableto have a bit of a retainer
approach, especially for theclients who they would love to
keep on working with you.
And again, we're talking at amore higher level because this
is somebody who knows a lotabout this stuff, but the

(18:37):
reality is I do think most webdesigners hit that roadblock at
about a quarter million, wheremy model is a bit stuck right
there.
Unless you are really reallyhigh value and high premium on
websites, you can build asupport plan.
The student I mentioned who isdoing over 500, she actually is

(18:57):
doing mostly maintenance planswith that, but she is in a niche
that has referral partners andit's at a pretty high scale.
So she just has hundreds andhundreds of maintenance plans.
So you can get to that level,but it is a bit of a difference.
It's uncommon for most webdesigners to manage 1,000

(19:18):
maintenance plans.
So there is an option.
Basically, if you're wondering,okay, I'm at a six-figure range.
My clients are asking for more.
I know SEO, I know a little bitabout this.
How should I package this up?
I would say to start, justoffer a bit of a roadmap paid
discovery type 90-day sprint ormaybe a six-month deal and then

(19:38):
create a bit of a roadmap forthere and then test it out like
that, because you can get prettyinstant results on some of that
stuff.
Seo, we all know, takes sometime, but things like conversion
and optimization, leadgenerators it's pretty easy to
manage and measure how manypeople signed up in a contact
form, how many people booked acall how many people converted,
how many people signed up for anemail list.

(19:59):
Those are things that you cantrack very quickly, so I would
almost keep it open-ended to seewhat you like to do and then
reel it in from there.

Shannon (20:07):
I love that, and you mentioned paid discovery a
couple times and that's part ofour Web Designer Academy roadmap
.
I'll be talking about it inJosh's community coming up soon,
but it's just an opportunityfor you to be able to take a
really deep dive with a clientor a potential client to figure

(20:27):
out what their goals are andpaint a picture for them of what
opportunities are there thatthey don't.
Maybe they haven't consideredbefore or they don't know what.
They don't know about what'spossible for them or different
ways to solve their problems,and it really is just a way for
you to show them different waysthat they can get to their goals

(20:48):
.
So to Josh's point if you don'tknow what your growth plan
could be, test the waters, testout some different things.
Reach out to some of yourfavorite clients, do a paid
discovery engagement with them,figure out what their goals are
and then see how you can slot inthe things that you love to do
or that you're great at or thatyou'd love to.

(21:10):
You know, start like doing forthem and I love that like create
a 90 day roadmap and like testit out.

Josh (21:19):
I think that's where the real power is.
To get going with growth plansis because there's not really
like an exact framework for it.
I mean, I guess, like you, ifyou're like largely into SEO,
you could create a prettydetailed like structure for an
SEO plan that you would followfor most generalized clients.
But just from my experience,most web designers are doing a

(21:40):
bit of strategy SEO lead gen.
It's kind of all in copy andconversion.
It's kind of a.
It's a bit of strategy seo leadgen.
It's kind of all in copy andconversion.
It's kind of it's a bit of aweb designer soup.
So, like I just think it's greatto have a bit of a, especially
to put your foot in the door,just like, yeah, like the 90-day
sprint.
I really like the 90-day sprintthing because clients will feel
like we could get a boost andit would be cool to try it out.

(22:01):
And if you get them someresults, they're probably going
to be like, ooh, let's keep thisgoing, as opposed to saying
like we have an 18-month planthat's $1,000 a month and then
suddenly they're like oh,$18,000.
Hmm, maybe, but if there's a$3,000 90-day sprint, well,
that's a little more doable formost clients, and if you just
frame it as like if this getsyou two clients at $1,500 each,

(22:23):
you've paid for it right upfront and then the rest is all
profit on top of that.
So a lot of different ways toframe it, but I really do like
the 90-day sprint thing to kickit off.

Shannon (22:32):
Yeah, and so as you were talking, I was thinking you
know we were talking about likeopportunities or things, trends
that we're seeing for 2025.
Predefined packages of servicesto like a more custom feeling
experience.
Even if it might be the samething that you would have in a

(23:04):
package that it's like moretailored toward a client.
I'm curious if you're seeinganything like that.

Josh (23:11):
I think packages have gone a little bit more low ticket
like a little more like thethousand,000 to 2,000 range for
like a more of a templatized,productized style package.
I never had clear packages, Ijust had ranges.
So for me I always had 2,500.
Up to 5,000 was our starterlike basic style package for

(23:33):
smaller sites, generally fivepages under.
Whether we would use sometemplatized stuff or not, it
didn't matter, it was all inthat basic realm.
5,000 to 10,000 was kind of ourmedium range projects.
Most of our projects were inbetween that and then 10,000
plus would be for e-commercesites, larger directory sites,
bigger stuff like that.
I think that's still a good wayto go because you can have

(23:56):
constraints in ranges that arekind of like packages, but then
you can customize within thoseconstraints.
So in most cases I would rollwith that.
It kind of depends on thegrowth plan too, though quite
honestly I do think there's kindof two sets of web designers
Web designers getting to sixfigures with a pretty defined

(24:17):
range or package style approachfor websites backed up by
support plans, and then thosewho are getting past the
generally the 200 to 250 aremore focused on being a bit of a
partner with their clients andthis takes time, by the way, to
get to that point.
That's why I don't recommendnewer designers jump right into
growth and partnership status.

(24:37):
Just build a web design studio,get six figures, feel good
about what you're doing and thenyou can shift towards the
growth model, Because the moreagency style growth model.
There's pros and cons, ofcourse, but I think the packages
of websites are actually moreof a lead-in to a growth plan
than vice versa.

(24:58):
You know what I mean.
A lot of web designers at thatlevel are thinking growth first
and then a website may just be apart of that.
They may be looking at $1,000or $2,000 a month plan and, by
the way, the first phase of thisplan is doing the website and
then the next phase is doing SEO, Then the next phase is such
and such.
I know I talked with Troy Deanfrom Agency Mavericks and that's

(25:21):
how they promote to theiragencies.
Now they're serving agencieswho are generally at seven
figures.
That's the goal for theirclients and, from what I know,
the way they frame it is youstart out with a paid discovery.
That's pretty premium.
You create a roadmap and thewebsite may be a part of that
roadmap.
But he's also serving agenciesthat may even not do web design.

(25:42):
So for web designers it doesshift from what you're selling a
website first with support to alittle bit of growth, and then
suddenly you're actuallyprobably selling growth and
roadmap more than just a website.

Shannon (25:54):
Yeah, and I think, especially like you said, when
you are newer, when you'rebuilding to six figures, like
learning the skill of gettingclients, sales, running projects
, you know, navigate, like justclient wrangling, navigating
clients, starting and endingprojects on time those are like
core skills to learn and thenlike have in place before you go

(26:19):
, adding more, more onto that.
Because if you don't learn thosethings or you don't fix those
things and you're spending allyour time trying to like build
this growth plan for a clientthat you don't even have yet,
like you're just delaying yourresults or sweeping future
problems under the rug.

(26:40):
So I love how you're saying, ifyou're in this stage of
business, yes, this is whatyou're working towards, but you
can get really far before you dothat and really set yourself up
to add that on successfullylater.
Instead of overwhelmingyourself now or maybe even

(27:02):
sabotaging your progress now bytrying to do a strategy that's
not um, they're like going tosupport where you're at right
now in your business it's kindof like learning to swim in the
deep end, like if you're justthrown right in there.

Josh (27:15):
There's just so much more to figure out.
Now I will say there are likethe few, there's the rarities,
like I have a member of mycommunity, sam.
Did I connect you with Sam, bythe way?
Yeah, yeah.
So Sam is all about local SEO.
He actually knows like ahundred times more about local
SEO than I do.
So I like he has a little microcommunity called local web
design or local SEO Academy andkind of an offshoot of Pro, and

(27:38):
I lean on him now to learn aboutSEO.
But the local SEO, the reason Imentioned that is his first year
in business.
I think he told me I can sharethis because he's going to share
it publicly, but I think he'sclosing his books at like $125K
for his first year in business.
But he is a wild man rock starand he found his area of

(27:58):
specialty very quickly.
He loved local SEO, he had aknack for it, he loved it, he
got results himself and he builtpretty quickly a growth plan
specifically around local SEO.
There was no conversion, no copystuff I mean a little bit of
copy with SEO but he did gopretty quickly into that realm

(28:19):
and I think that's probably moreof a priority for him than
website design now, because it'sa part of it, so you can go
pretty quickly with it.
But I would say, only if youknow exactly what you want to do
.
Most web designers need to geta feel for the industry and get
a feel for what you want to dobefore you create a big, hefty
growth plan, because there's alot to it and it's time
intensive and sam has a little.

(28:40):
He has some subcontractorsdoing a lot of the ongoing stuff
for him because, um, it's avery quick way to burn out if
you try to run before you learnto walk such a good point.

Shannon (28:51):
So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk
about your business journey overthe past year, because when we
first met and started talking,your business model looked
different than it does today,for how you support web
designers in these phases ofbusiness.
And I think when we met eachother and went out for coffee

(29:15):
the first time, both of us werelike in this, like yes, business
is amazing, it's going so well.
And then, like 2023 happenedand we were both like what is
happening?
And then like both had to makesome significant changes in our
business to like reach our goalsand continue, you know, serving

(29:37):
the people that we serve, andthat was basically the story of
2024.
So I would love to hear fromyou the debrief of that and some
of the changes you made and whyyou made them and what things
look like now for you.

Josh (29:54):
Yeah, the biggest shift that I went through was going
from a course model to amembership model.
So, yeah, at the time ofmeeting you, what I sold
basically what was paying thebills was a suite of web design
courses.
I have a few courses that helppeople learn web design, the
process and design and thebasics of SEO, some technical

(30:15):
stuff and then business I have.
My main course is my businesscourse.
It's the big honker, it's theflagship course that has
everything on building thebusiness and running the
business.
Then I have a maintenance plancourse teaching recurring
revenue with hosting and growthand maintenance plans.
So that was my main model and Ihad a membership behind that,
which was previously called theWeb Design Club, and it was

(30:37):
smaller at the time.
It was generally anywherebetween 50 and 100 members at
that time and it was $99 a monthat that point.
So it was a little bit ofrecurring revenue.
It was like a few thousand ofrecurring revenue for me every
month.
It was basically just forstudents who wanted to have
community and coaching behindthe courses.
There's a lot of benefitstowards having one-off lifetime

(30:59):
access courses but, as everyonecan imagine especially you know
this you know mixing courses andcommunity and coaching together
.
There's also a lot of drawbacks, I found, particularly if you
have a lot of courses, because Ihad some students who were in
one course, some who were inthree courses, some who were in
all my courses and then suddenlytheir experience is very

(31:19):
different when they're trying tobuild their business with only
some of the resources, andbecause I had my coaching
community.
At the time.
I had a lot of people I wasserving in my coaching community
.
Some of them had none of mycourses, so I was like, oh my
gosh, don't even join this untilyou go through.
So I'm like you got to gothrough my business course at

(31:42):
least.
So I found personally for me, Iwas at a point where I had seen
a lot of student success andpeople who are killing it, who
had went through my courses andhad the backing of community and
coaching when they needed it.
That was really the impetus forme to think about going from a
course-first model, lifetimeaccess to a membership and
basically you just get access toeverything courses, community
and coaching.
So Circle is the platform thatI use to run my community.

(32:04):
And when they opened up thecourse feature and had an LMS
feature, finally I was like herewe go, this is the opportunity.
I did not.
You know, I did not waste muchtime on that.
I think I was like, ooh, Ithink I might put the courses in
there.
And then a month later, boom,all the courses were in there.
Thank you to Chris, my amazingVA from the Philippines, who did
all that for me.
And then I rebranded to WebDesigner Pro.

(32:28):
I never loved the Web DesignClub name.
I just couldn't think ofanything better at the time.
But because I knew this wasgoing to be a bigger offer for
me at the time, but because Iknew this was going to be a
bigger offer for me, I wanted tocome up with something legit
and I just I forget how I endedup on the name Web Designer Pro.
But the com was available for ameasly $5,000.
So I picked that up andinvested in that and relaunched

(32:49):
as Web Designer Pro, as themembership.
So all good, all cool there.
The issues came because I wasselling.
I had one foot in the coursesdoor, one off sales, and then I
had one foot in the membershipdoor.
What I underestimated anddidn't really realize is I
created two very differentpurchasing options for potential

(33:13):
customers.
They were like Well, do I wantto buy the business course for
$1,000 and get lifetime access,or do I want to get all the
courses?
But at that time it was $199 amonth or $2,000 a year and so it
was like two high-end offers.
That was a little confusing andthat's what.
And sure I'll stop here for now.

(33:33):
But that's what started thepivot and what also started the
revenue decline for me, becauseI was trickling.
I was stop here for now, butthat's what started the pivot
and what also started therevenue decline for me, because
I was trickling.
I was selling some membershipsslowly and steady, which in the
long run was good to grow amembership slow and steady.
But then, my course, salesdropped overnight dramatically.
So summer of 23 was a dark,dark few months, for sure.

Shannon (33:55):
I appreciate how transparent you are in all of
this.
I think that's why we get alongso well is because we're both
like yep, here's, like, here'show it all like went down.
And what I hear from you andI'm curious, in hindsight, if
you have any insight into um,into this but what I hear from,

(34:19):
what my experience of you hasalways been, is that you never
want to take anything away fromanyone or like, like
inadvertently cause a student tonot have every possible thing
that they could have to besuccessful, and that caused you

(34:42):
I wouldn't say a lot of grief,but like it really um for you to
be able to like make thedecision of moving things here
and changing prices and changingaccess.
You cared so much about makingsure every single person had the
opportunity to be successfulthat it seemed that you were not

(35:06):
having a hard time making thedecisions, but that it wasn't so
cut and dry for you to be like.
Here's how these changes arehappening.
I'm curious what your thoughtsare on that or your feedback is
on that.

Josh (35:21):
That's a good point.
Yeah, you know me, I'm a heartfirst business guy.
That's why, also, I chose and Iknew I would love to really
make the community the mainthing, because that's where I
love to hang out, that's whereall my friends are.
Now I am a community builder bynature.
I have been since.
I was thinking back about thisrecently.

(35:41):
I'm like I've been a communitybuilder since I was an early
teenager.
In my band days I wasconnecting people and creating
friendships and then, like you,got to meet this person.
They do this and looking back,I realized I've been doing that
from the early days and evenwhen I started teaching web
design, I created the DiviFacebook group.
That's now 25,000 people.
I don't manage it now, but I'vebeen a community builder for a

(36:03):
long time.
So, all that to say, I knew Iwould thrive as a community
builder, but it's just adifferent model.
I think the hardship came withjust changing the business model
and this is worthwhile divinginto as well.
Going back to the first half ofthis conversation with growth
plans, because I think a lot ofweb designers get to this point

(36:23):
too where it's like oh, suddenlyI'm going from selling websites
first to selling more likedigital strategy first, and then
websites are a part of it, andit's similar with the feelings
of like am I going to letclients down?
How am I going to support them?
So yeah, it was it all.
Look, if the membership boomedright away and my course sales

(36:44):
continued going strong, Iwouldn't have.
It would have been like thiswas the best decision ever,
although I don't know, maybe Iwould have continued to make it
confusing for courses andmembership.
So the reality was is likebecause the course sales dropped
almost overnight and becausethe membership was gaining new
members, but it was slow andsteady, which again, in

(37:05):
hindsight, is the best thing,because almost the worst problem
for a membership if it's intime intensive is to have too
many members at once, because itjust doesn't create a cohesive
feel.
It's like it's good to growslow and steady.
So I definitely would have beenmore tactful with how I
positioned the courses and how Ipositioned the membership from
the get-go.
It took about six months for meto be like okay, web Designer

(37:28):
Pro, is it?
I'm not a course creatoranymore, I'm a community builder
.
Courses are a part of what Isell, big part of it.
But it's not the end of theroad, I went from essentially
selling information to sellingtransformation, and that's what
I really embraced when I got tothe fall of 23, when things
turned around.

Shannon (37:49):
So how did you have the courage I don't know if that's
the right word the patience tostay the course through the
transition from sellinginformation to transformation,
because I think that does goback to what we were talking

(38:10):
about earlier with when you'regoing to make a fundamental
change in your business whetherthat's, like you said, selling
website first, selling strategyfirst that the changes you make
don't always bear fruitimmediately.
And so how did you self-manage,stay the course, have the

(38:34):
courage to see it through,instead of being like, oh no, no
, I made a wrong decision.
I'm going to go put the courageto see it through instead of
being like, oh no, no, I made awrong decision, I'm going to go
put it back to how it was.

Josh (38:42):
Yeah, I thought about that because I was like, oh God,
should I just like take thecourses out and go back to
selling courses?
But what I realized, I honestly, what kept me going, shannon,
was the students in my memberwell, I have to reframe the term
my members of Web Designer Pro,the ones who were getting
really good results.
They were killing it and I wasoverseeing them and, yes, it was

(39:02):
on a small, much smaller scaleat that time, but I realized
they really kept me goingbecause we had built a strong
community and because it wasworking.
Yes, it was working for asmaller amount of people at that
time, but it was working.
So for every bit.
I think I told you this, like,when I interviewed Amy
Porterfield, she told me a quoteon the podcast that has stuck

(39:23):
with me ever since, which is youcan't believe everything you
think.
You and I have talked aboutthis numerous times, but when
sales are down, it is very easyto go like, oh my God, what did
I do?
I messed up, I've lost it.
I'm not the best web designcoach.
I've been out of it for toolong.
You can really go to a lot ofdark places pretty quickly, but

(39:45):
I just honestly just kept going.
I just had weekly things likegoing live for a coaching call
every week in Web Designer Pro,trickling new members in,
overseeing them, coaching them,saw them get results.
Yes, it was on a small scale,yes, it wasn't sustainable yet
during that pivot, but it wasenough to be like, okay, this
works and this is a general ruleof thumb, I've realized for web

(40:07):
designers too If it works forone client, it can work for two.
If it works for two, it'll workfor five, if it works for five,
it'll work for 10, up to 100and so on.
So I just realized at that pointI was like it took a little
while to get to that point andrealize like, yeah, I mean, I
had to go through a bit ofidentity shift as a course
creator to a community builder.
Um, and the other thing thatwas just like a knife to the

(40:31):
heart was I revamped my businesscourse to the version and what
it is now and it's.
This sounds douchey andboastful, but it's great.
Like it's great, it is a reallydamn good course.
Like it really is good, and Iput my heart and soul into that
thing.
So I pivoted to the membershipmodel and then I didn't market

(40:51):
as much because I figured I'mgoing to launch the new version
of the business course and it'sgoing to be a huge launch.
It's going to be like a $50,000or $60,000 launch between
people joining the membership orjoining the course for $1,000.
I launched that course and theinitial launch was $6,000.
Like 10 X like I've been seeingall these 10 X things.

(41:14):
Well, I accidentally went likenegative 10 X on what I like I
didn't see that ad.
Uh, I went like negative 10 Xon what I thought was going to
happen.
Now I did have a lot of peoplejoin pro at that point.
So, again, with a membershipmodel of recurrent revenue, it's
smaller at the start but thenit starts to add up pretty
quickly.
So lifetime value was actuallyprobably 50 or 60 altogether,

(41:37):
but it's taken two years to getto that point.
So, or a year and a half.
So I had that launch and it wasjust a total flop.
And then I had some of thesmallest months I'd ever had in
the summer of 2023.
I hadn't been under $10,000 inrevenue in like three years and
suddenly I had like a $9,000 amonth.
Like that's not even enough tocover my family's mortgage and

(42:01):
bills altogether.
So luckily we had some savings,we had a little bit of runway,
but I was honestly probablyabout three months from being
like I'm going to have to likestart doing one-on-one
consultations or mowing lawns ordoing whatever I have to do
Building websites again.
Building websites again.
Yep, yep.
I was getting kind of close tothat point and, as you know, we
had gone through a lot ofpersonal things at that time too

(42:23):
.
My daughter had a seriousmedical issue and we had a lot
of rebound going on the personalside.
So it was just hell for alittle while.
But what kept me going to answeryour question was the results
that my members were getting,the tight knit group.
I mean, I just don't know howyou can be an entrepreneur
without a support system,whether it's a little mastermind

(42:43):
group like you and I have withJason, and I have some other
colleagues who are trustedcolleagues and advisors who I
did lean on a lot during thatperiod.
It also helped me, as much as Ifeel bad that you went through
a tough time too.
Part of it was like, okay, I'mnot alone, like a lot of other
course creators I talked to aswell.
And look, there were marketeffects and inflation and

(43:04):
everything else going on too.
So there were other coursecreators who were like, yeah,
mine have been like downdramatically too.
So I was like, okay, it's notjust me that helped, but also
just having a customer communityand seeing those wins helped me
go.
And then I finally, after a fewmonths, was like okay, I don't
give a shit about coursesbecause they're not selling

(43:24):
anyway, but they're working inWeb Designer Pro, so it's all
about pro.
Courses became a lead-in to pro.
I started selling courses at ahuge discount off of summits,
off of partner webinars like Idid with you and off of flash
sales.
So like, hey, you want mymaintenance plan course for $97?
You get that and you get a30-day trial of pro.

Shannon (43:46):
That is what started the momentum change for me
that's so good and you saidearlier this is going to sound
douchey or braggy.
It's not douchey or braggy, tostate the truth.
Your business course is epic.
It is so good and yourmaintenance plan course is
amazing.

(44:06):
I've heard nothing butwonderful things from people I
know who have taken both ofthose courses and are like taken
both of those courses and arelike I can't believe what is in
here.
So just to just to state thefact that, yeah, you don't have
to minimize that at all.

Josh (44:24):
I'm glad you said that, shannon, because that was
actually one of the thingsbecause you, like you, may say
like, well, why didn't you justjump all in on Web Designer Pro?
Initially, it was what you justsaid People saying like I can't
believe what's in this course.
Prior to making that shift, Ihad a student join several of my
courses and he was like I justpaid $3,000 for this other
course.
That isn't like a fraction asgood as yours that you're

(44:46):
charging $1,000 for at that time.
And so I had all these likeyeah, there is such good stuff
in here.
Am I devaluing it by going to amonthly model?
Because, yeah, people couldjust technically come in for a
month, take everything and go.
But what I realized is because Iwas moving from information to
transformation, which is reallythe underlying key here, and

(45:07):
this is the same for webdesigners who go from selling a
website to selling growth andselling client success and
transformation.
It takes more time to gettransformation, especially when
you're building your business.
So I learned would I ratherhave somebody purchase a course
for $1,000 and then have accessto it and then go through it, or

(45:28):
would I rather have somethingthat's 99 bucks a month or 200 a
month and have them stay foryears.
I have a lot of my members areOG members.
I have, I think, 30, almost 40members who are original
founding members.
They've been paying me for fouryears plus and their
transformations are where it'sat and that's why they keep on
paying me.
So I realized that's what I hadto mentally move from is a

(45:52):
bigger one-off purchase to asmaller ongoing purchase, and
that's what really yeah, that'swhat I had to move to.
It was a hard mental shift,because it is.
It's like I worked my ass offbuilding my business.
I'm going to put all my secretsand tips and strategies into
this that somebody could justrip off for $200.
But it's not $200, especiallyif they get results.

(46:13):
It's more like several thousanddollars over the period of a
couple years or longer.

Shannon (46:18):
Well, here's what I see .
One you took a stand for yourclients at actually a great
personal risk to yourself.
You really did, because whatyou were seeing back to what we
were talking about earlier like,the people who get the best
results are the people who haveaccess to everything and have

(46:40):
community and have coaching andhave support and you went
through.
Yes, there were market effects,yes, but you also risked your
business to take a stand for thesuccess of your clients, and

(47:01):
that is a bold move, and you hadto go through a transformation
yourself in order to take astand for them and look how much
more impact you're having, lookhow much more impact they're
having, and I love this story.

(47:23):
I hate that you went through ahard time.
I hate that I went through ahard time.
I wish none of us would everhave to go through a hard time,
but we come out so much with somuch more to offer on the other
side of the darkness.

Josh (47:37):
Yeah, and I do think it's a testament to just being an
entrepreneur.
We all know it's a rollercoaster.
What was interesting about thatis I had never gone down in
revenue since I started business.
I've always gone up into theright.

Shannon (47:53):
There were some years that were like you too.

Josh (47:58):
Oh yeah, we talked about this Like there's some years
where it wasn't like massivelyup into the right, but I had
almost doubled my revenue almostevery year since I started.
So this was the first timewhere, as I mentioned, 2022 was
just a lot of personal thingsbetween my family moving and
then my daughter out of surgeryand then she had a serious
medical incident when I was justplanning for a big push in the
fall.
So I gave myself grace on thatyear.

(48:19):
2023, I figured would be thebounce back year, but because of
the pivot, because of thefailed launch, because of all
the things we just covered, itwas even worse than 22.
So, yeah, I mean I just talkedabout it here publicly in a
podcast episode and a newslettermy revenue was down over
$125,000 in the period of thosetwo years.
For me, that's over like 25% ofmy revenue.

(48:42):
So it was enough to be likeholy crap, this can't continue.
But to your point, once Icommitted, once I really leaned
on the members who were gettingresults side note going to
WordCamp US in 2023 and meetinga handful of members in person
was a life-changing event for me, because they didn't all know
what I was going through at thattime, but they were telling me

(49:06):
stories.
First of all, I was like Ishould have brought a microphone
and a camera, because these areincredible testimonials.
But they were telling me theirstories of how they found my
course and it changed their lifeand then it helped them build
recurring revenue and nowthey're able to quit their job
or their kid got sick and theywere able to help them in the
hospital and run their business.
Like all these stories inperson that I just was not

(49:26):
collecting and most people arenot going to share that unless
you prompt them, it's very rareSomebody is going to be like hey
, I just wanted to, you know,send this like tear, teary,
heartfelt story, unless you, youknow, some will.
But that helped dramaticallytoo, as I was like, okay, this,
like I'm seeing real world, whatmy work has is doing for people

(49:47):
.
So, yeah, it was a hugeturnaround and you're right.
Like I, I did lean on thesuccess of those.
I have a colleague in the inthe WordPress space who has one
of the biggest YouTube channelsand he was like why don't you
just do a free Facebook groupbacked up with a low-end
community and then sell all yourcourses?
Just break them up and havethem as low-end offers and just
do it at scale.
I'm like I could, I could, butthat's a whole different

(50:13):
business model.
Sounds like a lot of supportand you know, now I do have
tiers, now I do have a low endoffer to get people in my
courses, but it was verydifferent.
I was like that just soundslike uh.

Shannon (50:25):
I just didn't want to do that.
You were done sellinginformation.
I just didn't want to selltransformation.

Josh (50:29):
Yes, and I knew that.
You know you're not going toget transformation in a free
Facebook group, transformationin a free Facebook group, let's
just be honest.
So I just you know you couldhelp and it's beneficial.
But yeah, I just you know.
I had all these differentoptions and I was like I
realized my gut is telling me todo this.
Yes, it's painful and it's hardright now, but I knew, yeah,
again, going back to it, itworks for one, it works for two,
it works for five works for 10,et cetera so good.

Shannon (50:58):
I had a similar experience in 2023, after a
challenging summer, which Ialways talk about how you helped
me through.
Josh and I are in a mastermindtogether.
We meet every month and Joshhelped me make some really tough
decisions and move forward.
And I trust your advice becauseyou aren't just trying to sell
as many courses as you possiblycan.
Yes, that is a byproduct ofhelping as many people be

(51:22):
successful as possible, butyou're not just like how can I
just churn out content to sellas many courses and make money
from courses.
You're like how can I help asmany people as possible get the
results and have the life andbusiness that they want?
So I really trusted your advicebecause I knew it was coming
from the same kind of place thatI would give advice as well.

(51:46):
And I had a similar experiencebecause I went through a very
challenging 2023.
I had to lay off a team memberand then went to our Next Level
Mastermind Retreat, which is ourmastermind for women web
designers, where we like I saywe like help them with the
problems of success.
Right, like, you grew too fastand you didn't fix some of the

(52:07):
things that Josh and I hadtalked about earlier, or
whatever the case may be, andwe're all sitting around the
first day and they're tellingthe story of how they found me
and how their life changed.
And I'm just sitting there likewhat is happening right now,
when you're sitting in youroffice, in your house behind the

(52:29):
screen of your laptop and, yeah, we interact in our communities
and we know we help people andthat's probably very rewarding
to us.
But to have that many peopletell you how you impacted their
life, how could you not doubledown on doing what you're doing?
That was a transformationalmoment for me and a pivotal

(52:50):
moment for me.
I can imagine how pivotal of amoment that was for you, too,
after the summer that you wentthrough.

Josh (52:57):
Yeah, I remember I think we both went through that.
We kind of needed that.
We needed like in-personconnection and hear not only
results, because it's nice toknow that a student makes it to
10K months.
But what's behind a 10K month?
Well, that's like a littlefinancial stability, that's
being able to be home with theirkid when they're sick or that's
being able to help their agingparent and not have to work

(53:17):
full-time job.
It's getting behind themonetary results and the
lifestyle results and lifestylewins, which are really cool.
Now, you can't have a lifestylewin until you have monetary
results generally.
So that's still why I don'tthink there's anything wrong
with having financial goals.
But I have leaned on that.

(53:38):
You'll notice, if you go to WebDesigner Procom, a lot of my
testimonials are not about, like, I'm to 13K months it's a sum,
but a lot of it is I'm able totake care of my kids and work
from home, or it's a little morebehind the revenue.
So pro tip for everyone yes, getthose from your clients today.

(54:00):
Like, do call your clients.
So another great way withgrowth plans and strategy calls
and things like that, it givesyou a chance to stay top of mind
with clients and then I wouldreally push for that and have
have tests like collecttestimonials that are not just
about what they made.
Most clients don't want toshare that anyway, so how have
you improved their life?
You can get some of that.

(54:21):
I'm looking at my wall rightnow, which I call a wall of
awesome.
There's like 70 plustestimonials and little snippets
of wins and lifestyle wins andstuff like that, and I look at
that every day.
That was also clutch duringthat time was to continue to get
testimonials, continue toremind myself I haven't failed
at this.
I'm not not worthy to do this.

(54:42):
I just needed my offer.
I messed up my offer.
I need to make it better.

Shannon (54:46):
So yeah, so let's talk about your Web Designer Pro
membership.
Tell us more about how it'sstructured, what it looks like,
what a typical week in the lifeof a member would look like.

Josh (55:02):
So, thanks to your client success coordinator, erica,
who's freaking awesome, I workedwith her to do a big audit of
pro this year, which is anotherthing I would recommend doing
for everybody, because you don'tjust audit your business, you
get your clients and yourcustomers involved and they
actually give you directfeedback on what they need, what
could be improved.

(55:22):
So she interviewed 10 membersand we also did a big survey and
just figured out whereeveryone's revenue range was.
What was their year experience,what tools they use all that
good stuff, what was yourexperience?
What tools they use, all thatgood stuff.
And what I became so clear wasthat there are three profiles,
if you will, in Web Designer Pro.
There are builders, folks whoare early stage web designers,

(55:50):
who really just need moreinformation.
At that point they're not quiteready for transformation
because they got to know how tobuild websites and run their
business and build it up andbuild a little bit of recurring
revenue, got to know how tobuild websites and run their
business and build it up andbuild a little bit of recurring
revenue.
So I realized that a large partof my audience and after we did
that survey was in that buildercategory, making under
generally $50,000 to $75,000.
So no wonder when I changed myoffers to $2,000 a year or
$1,000 for a one-off course,it's like, well, no wonder

(56:11):
somebody making $20,000 isn'tgoing to join because they just
can't afford that unless theyhave help or they just go for it
.
So a lot of my members were inthat early stage builder
category.
We realized there was quite abit.
The next bigger lump of the piewas people who were closing in
on six figures or low sixfigures, which was most of what

(56:35):
I was serving and kind of whereI got.
And then there were the 10% orless of pro who were in
multi-six figures, who werescaling and building and stuff
like that.
So the experience to answeryour question when you join pro
is I really try to get a feelfor where you are in that and
then I have success pathways foreach one of those.
So when you join, if you're abuilder, there's a success

(56:58):
pathway with how to start yourbusiness and then I give you a
roadmap to the courses.
For a grower who is closing inon six figures or low six
figures and you're wanting tobuild a stable six figure
business, there's a separate setof like.
There's a success pathway forthat.
And then I recommend, like,just go right to the business
course.
You probably already knowbasics of SEO and design so we

(57:18):
can fill in the gaps later.
Go to the business course andthen my scalers.
I now have a scaling coursewhich is the newest course that
is exclusively in pro.
That's ideal for the scalers.
They'll probably go through thebusiness course, but that's for
the scalers.
And then the big change in thepivot was to add tiers to pro
this fall, and so the tiers,even more so, are really ideal.

(57:40):
If you're a beginner, if you'rea builder, go to the first tier
.
You get all my courses for $49a month Very affordable.
And you actually get the propodcast feed so you can hear our
coaching calls.
And then the tier up for thatis the community tier All
courses, all the community, for$99 a month.
And then that tier up for thatis the community tier, all
courses, all the community, for$99 a month.
And then that's ideal for thegrowers and some beginners, if

(58:01):
you're ready to rock and roll.
And then the coaching tier,which is limited on spots.
That's for the scalers, becausescalers do tend to have unique
problems and they may want touse my network.
So I'm like I got a guyChristian, or I got a guy, you
know, I get Sam, connect withSam or whoever it is to do these
things.
Um, so the, the coaching tieris kind of ideal for my scalers.

(58:21):
So, yeah, that's been the bigpivot.
That's kind of the next chapter, for pro is just really serving
these folks better and givingthem a very clear path to go
from builder to like you'vegraduated, you're now a grower
and then you're scaling veryquickly.
So I'm really excited about2025 because I built the core.
I know what works, we'vedefined it.

(58:43):
We've really made everythingsuper clear, I think.
So now it's just a matter ofmarketing and promoting.
I'm kind of in sell, baby sellmode now.

Shannon (58:52):
And you're coming to the Simply Profitable Designer
Summit.
Web Designer Pro is a sponsorof the Simply Profitable
Designer Summit.
Web Designer Pro is a sponsorof the Simply Profitable
Designer Summit, so we're sothrilled to have you as part of
the summit.
I know your presentation isgoing to be amazing and people
always ask me I don't know ifyou get asked this as much as I
get asked this but like, what'sthe difference between Web

(59:14):
Designer Academy and WebDesigner Pro?
And you know I always explain.
It's not necessarily an eitheror it's like a both and and and.
If you apply for the WebDesigner Academy and you're in
the builder phase, josh is theonly person I'm sending you to,
you know.
So I always say, like, ifyou're not sure if you're a

(59:35):
right fit for the Web DesignerAcademy, go ahead and apply and
I'll point you in the rightdirection.
This is the direction I'mpointing you in because I know
he's going to take excellentcare of you.
He's going to teach youeverything you need to know
about how to start a web designbusiness, how to the technical
aspects, the you know theproject management aspects, all
of those things I'm sending youover to him.

(59:57):
Web Designer Academy we workwith women web designers.
So there you go.
Now you know where to go ifthat's not you.
And also we focus a lot onpricing, mindset boundaries, a
lot of the problems of success,and by the time you get there,
it really is a both hand.

(01:00:18):
We have people in both of ourcommunities.

Josh (01:00:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.
Look, I really appreciate youtaking Web Designer Pro on as
the downsell for WDA if it's nota good fit for folks, because
it really does work out, and youand I are a good example of, I
think, of other web designerswho want to partner with digital
agencies and others who you maydo some similar stuff, but you
each have your own lane ofgenius.

(01:00:43):
Yeah, I don't go too far intomarketing.
I don't go too far into themindset stuff and I cover
boundaries, but not at the levelyou do.
So we have our differencesthere where it's like, if you
want to go further into a lot ofongoing marketing, wda is a
great spot, especially for thosewho get to that point.
So, yeah, we have a lot ofoverlap, but we have our lanes
of genius.

(01:01:03):
So I love it.
I love the world of coopetition, as you very well know.
Is there a better example oftwo people who are almost direct
competitors, who alsocollaborate as much as we do?

Shannon (01:01:14):
I don't know and it's super interesting because I'm
always like I don't want to doanything redundant, like there's
no point for me to likereinvent a wheel josh has
created, and I'm sure vice versa, where you're like oh, you can
just go to web wda for that,like we, I think that we see.
I certainly see, like how weboth fit into the no one person

(01:01:39):
can serve everybody, like that'sjust not possible.
And it's good to learn from lotsof different people, and not
too many, I wouldn't say likewith lots of super conflicting
values or, um, you knowstrategies, but to be able to
like take take something, liketake different things and make

(01:02:03):
them your own, because you willif you, yeah.

Josh (01:02:07):
I think being self-aware and honest about where you are
in the market, who you like toserve, is really good too.
Like I know, we've got to wrapup here.
Do you have a call right now,shannon?
I don't know.
Okay, I'm sorry.

Shannon (01:02:15):
I thought you had one at noon.
Okay too.
Like I know, we got to wrap uphere.
Do you have a call right now,shannon?
I don't.
No, oh, okay, I'm sorry, Ithought you had one at noon,
okay.

Josh (01:02:19):
I've got like 15 minutes or so.
But like I mentioned agencyMavericks, I've had some people
ask about like I want to build aseven figure agency and Like
you're better off to go toagency Mavericks.
I can help you with some stuffI can help you.
I'm really like I've realizedI'm kind of ideal to get people

(01:02:41):
to between a hundred thousandand about a half million.
That's kind of my sweet spot.
Um, it's a lot of people wouldlove to get to.
So like if you want to go sevenand multi seven figures, I would
just go to agency Mavericks,Because I didn't run a
seven-figure agency, I ran asix-figure agency.
So I've been very open andself-aware about like yeah, this
is who I'm a good fit for andI'm not a great fit for the

(01:03:03):
person who's brand brand brandnew to web design all the time.
Sometimes there are some peoplewho, like Sam who we mentioned,
he didn't know anything aboutweb design, went through my
courses and killed it, but hewas also pretty tech savvy and
figured stuff out fast.
So the person who's like, howdo I turn on my computer?

Shannon (01:03:18):
I don't think I'm a good fit for those people are
still searching on youtubeanyway, and you know like
there's so much self.
I taught myself, you taughtyourself.
There are so many things youcan do to teach yourself and
like decide, if you're that new,like kind of find your way, and
then like, if you're that new,like kind of find your way, and
then, like, when you're ready,you're like oh yeah, I want to

(01:03:40):
put some structure around this.
I want to find out what, like.
I know the questions I'm asking, but I don't know what I don't
know.
That's when like it's time toput some structure around that
learning.

Josh (01:03:52):
Yeah, and I'll.
Just I was probably going totell you this anyway, but like
my way I'm envisioning thingsmoving forward is my YouTube
channel, my podcast.
We talk about high level stuffthere, but especially my YouTube
channel, I'm more interested inserving the like super
beginners with resources in thatand back it up with like just
email, lead generation for meand free resources or lowend

(01:04:13):
resources, and then people cometo the community when they're
serious, committed and ready togo to that next level and then
have the tiers that I have forfolks who do want coaching.
I just don't foresee myselfgoing to the seven-figure agency
crowd.
It's just a different.
It's just a very different typeof place they're in and I like

(01:04:36):
where I'm at now.

Shannon (01:04:38):
Yeah, I don't know that we will go there either.
Our next level mastermind it'seven different.
Yeah, we talk about hiring andgrowing your business, but it's
not like strategy, right, it'slike next level is basically
like new levels same devils.
The problems that you didn'tsolve early on are the ones that

(01:05:00):
are going to pop back up,wearing a different outfit,
later on in your business.
And that's what we work on innext level, because by the time
someone gets there, they don'tneed a whole lot of handholding
on how to grow.
They're pretty powerhouse bythat point.
They're the only one getting intheir own way, so we're helping

(01:05:20):
them remove their ownroadblocks, and so that's really
interesting.
I would love to have an agencymavericks person in Next Level,
if that makes sense, someonewho's in agency Mavericks in
next level, cause it'd be sofascinating to see like, well,
where do you get in your waywith delegating and like running

(01:05:43):
this team and you know, likeall of this stuff, cause that's
really the stuff that we focuson in there, which is it's
really really fun because it'slike you're the only one in your
own way.
There's there's, like youalways say, there's some,
there's information out there.
There's no shortage of the howto do this you know, especially
now.

Josh (01:06:02):
I do think AI and just all the resources online now have I
don't want to say devaluedinformation, but it definitely
has changed courses.

Shannon (01:06:12):
I mean honestly, I would say that's a good term.

Josh (01:06:15):
That's a great term.
Yeah, I do think courses are ina tough spot.
I know some course creators whoare now pivoting to the
membership model, justespecially if there's a lot of
different courses.
I think there's a time andplace for a course that is a
launch model.
But I do think there's somecourse fatigue and I think
there's.
Yeah, I think people just wanttransformation and they want

(01:06:36):
quicker paths to success ratherthan a drawn out way to go about
it.
And, as we all know, like in acase of a web design business,
if you get, if you get onecourse on like design, it's like
well, that's great, but there'sso many other aspects I need to
know about.
So it is do you run the risk oflike doing all the things I'm?
I'm definitely trying to reelmyself in to make cause?

Shannon (01:06:58):
I get a lot of requests .

Josh (01:06:59):
like you should have a course on conversions and all
this and this and this.
I'm like, ah, every course Icreate is one I have to keep up
with and revamp.
So, like I, I'm going to havesome other resources around it,
but, like my primary curriculumis, is is going to evolve a
little bit here over the nextcouple of years.
But, yeah, sticking with whatworks Another good life lesson.

Shannon (01:07:17):
Well, yeah, and I think that the final thing I'll say
on this and then we'll wrap upis that you know people also
want community, right?
It's like, yeah, they wanttransformation.
Information is freely out therenow, like you know, whether
it's accurate or not chat GPT iskind of funny that way.
But ChatGPT is kind of funnythat way.

(01:07:39):
But the information is outthere and the transformation is
great.
But it's way more rewarding andyou actually go farther faster
in a community of other peoplegoing through what you're going
through.
It makes it easier to stay thecourse when things get tough,
when you know you're not theonly one going through this
thing right now and you can helpsomeone when you're struggling.

(01:08:01):
Or you can just hear fromsomeone who's just a few months
ahead of you on the upswing.
And if you're just trying to doit all on your own by yourself
in a room behind your laptop, itcan get really lonely.
So I think you need todefinitely be part of a
community.
If it's Web Designer Academy,if it's Web Designer Pro, if

(01:08:25):
it's some other community ofpeople doing the thing that you
want to do and who are seriousabout it and committed to it, go
get in those rooms, because youwill go so much farther faster
together than you can on yourown.

Josh (01:08:41):
I don't have anything to say, Cause I would.
That's what I would say.

Shannon (01:08:44):
Josh, thank you so much for coming on the show.
I will link up all of thethings that we talked about, all
the people we talked about, theresources we talked about,
especially web designer pro, inthe show notes so you can go
check that out.
And Josh, thanks again forbeing here.
Really appreciate it.

Josh (01:09:01):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, shannon, and real
quick, publicly, I want to saythank you, shannon, for your
support.
Uh, yeah, we both kind of wentthrough it together so, uh, yeah
, I mean you were just as a hugesupport for me through through
all this.
So, and you've been so graciouswith your community and with
all your resources and, yeah, Ireally, yeah, I really
appreciate you because I'veleaned on you for how you've

(01:09:24):
built and run your community andthen, of course, I'm, you know,
cherry picking off the peoplethat you work with.
So it's just awesome.
So, are you using youraffiliate link for if you send
people to Web Designer Pro?
I hope you using your affiliatelink, for if you send people to
Web Designer Pro, I hope youuse your affiliate link.

Shannon (01:09:36):
Yes, I will.
How about thisWebdesignercademycom forward
slash Web Designer Pro to gocheck out Web Designer Pro.

Josh (01:09:44):
Bam, I want to make sure you get credit where credit is
due.

Shannon (01:09:47):
I appreciate that, Josh and I would send people your
way, whether I got credit or not.
So um, yes, I'll just buy you alatte once a year.
We'll call it even.
How's that sound?
How about all of the incrediblepeople that you're like,
Shannon?
You should know this person,this person, you should know,
Shannon, how about all of thoseconnections?
Are your payment for me?

(01:10:08):
Um, you know talking about.

Josh (01:10:11):
That's a good point.
You told me you called me outand you don't value being a
connector.
I'm like you're right, that isvaluable.
So let me look at everyone Ireferred over and I'll add a 10
fee on that.
Sounds good.
No, happy to shannon, reallyappreciate you.
And uh, I'll see you tomorrowbecause I know we're meeting to
uh talk about our first webdesigner pro event.

Shannon (01:10:31):
So yes, that'll be super fun.
So thank you all so much forlistening, and we'll be back
next week.
Bye.

Josh (01:10:39):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that, one friend.
Again, big thanks to Shannonfor allowing me to repurpose
this for you.
I just really had a good timechatting with her, as always,
and I think we hit on some veryimportant subjects for web
designers today.
So I would love to hear fromyou on any takeaways or big hits
on this one that you can applyto your business.

(01:11:00):
I'm sure Shannon would love tohear from you as well.
You can leave us a comment atthe show notes for this episode,
which are going to be found atjoshhallco slash 379.
Head over there to leave us acomment and again, if you
haven't already, make sure tosubscribe and tune into
Shannon's podcast, theProfitable Web Designer, and you
can check her out atwebdesigneracademycom.

(01:11:20):
Cheers to the rest of 2025,going your way, and whether
you're brand spanking new orwhether you're established, just
having a dang fun timedesigning websites and helping
web design business owners, well, you're the web designer,
they're the business owner.
You know what I mean.
All right, I'm starting toramble, which means we're
closing out.
Hope you enjoyed this one,friends.
Joshhallco slash three, seven,nine to leave a comment and I

(01:11:42):
will see you on the next episode.