383 - Mastering Your Nervous System (to help you in business) with Jonny Miller

How does working on your nervous system help you as a web designer apart from the obvious fear of public speaking and large group settings?

Turns out, it affects (either positively or negatively) EVERY aspect of your day to day as a web designer and business owner.

In the name of sustainability, longevity and just being healthy and happy as a business owner, I’m thrilled to share a conversation I had with Jonny Miller, founder of Nervous System Mastery, who’s helped top level entrepreneurs and people at the highest level of business manage stress, get healthier and have the tools to handle bigger challenges and hurdles in their life.

What works for folks at this level of business also work for us as web designers, solopreneurs and agency owners.

Can’t wait to hear your takeaways.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned along with a full transcription of this episode at https://joshhall.co/383

Episode Transcript

Jonny Miller (00:00):
Outside of a couple of weeks.
Most entrepreneurs and webdesigners need to get back to
work.
So how do we get back to workwhen something's going on?

Josh Hall (00:07):
You can absolutely build up what I think it was
almost like like emotional debt,in the same way that like if
you're struggling financially,you can kind of take out a loan
from a bank, pay some interest.
I think the analogy holdspretty well.
Um the practices that I thinkare.
This is interesting I'vealready talked about this

(00:35):
specifically, but um, bothnoticing how your body
specifically is holding tensionand learning how to relax that
tension will allow your systemto hold more intensity will
allow your system to hold moreintensity.
Welcome to the Web DesignBusiness Podcast with your host,
Josh Hall.

Jonny Miller (00:58):
Helping you build a web design business that gives
you freedom and a lifestyle youlove.
It's great to have you here,friend, for a very left turn in
a different trail that we'regoing to dive into in this
episode, because we're going toget into your nervous system Now
, if you're like me, most webdesigners primarily get nervous
when we're out of our comfortzone in meetings or God forbid

(01:19):
public speaking or groupsettings or going to a
conference or even online callsor group calls.
I know a lot of you are on theintroverted spectrum, but the
reality is there is so much morethat goes on in our nervous
system day to day, even justbeing behind our screen in our
safe spot in our home office orwherever we are working.

(01:41):
There is so much that's goingon that impacts our day-to-day
physical and mental andemotional health and also our
business, which is why I'mabsolutely pumped to have on
Johnny Miller, who is thefounder of Nervous System
Mastery.
I actually heard a conversationthat Johnny had with a mutual
friend of ours, jay Klaus, whohas a podcast called Creator

(02:02):
Science, which I highlyrecommend that you check out,
and it was so good that I waslike I've got some follow-up
questions.
I got to get Johnny on and hewas kind enough to come on the
show here.
Johnny has worked with some ofthe biggest clients around,
including Slack, apple, meta,youtube, google.
He's working with people on avery high level to manage stress

(02:25):
and manage their nervous system.
He's been featured on ModernWisdom, deep Dive and other top
entrepreneurial podcasts, andI'm only saying that in his
pedigree to say that what isworking for folks at a very high
level in business in big rolesis also filtered down to web
designers, freelancers,solopreneurs and agency owners.
Johnny really has a lot ofwisdom to share, so I hope

(02:47):
you'll take this conversationseriously and really think about
everything you're doing to makesure you continue to stay
healthy as a human in business,because we all know business can
take over very quick and thenext thing you know your back
hurts and it unbroke something.
So, so much more is covered inthis one.
I do want to share a quick shoutout and thanks to Johnny for

(03:08):
being so open and transparent.
We do both get into somepersonal stuff in this one, so
just a heads up on that andwithout further ado, here's
Johnny.
What a guy.
What a mission he has.
I'm so excited to let you in onour conversation about nervous
system mastery.
Johnny, it's awesome to haveyou on the show, man.

(03:35):
I became a quick fan afterhearing you chat with my friend,
jay Klaus, so honored to haveyou on.
I know you've been on somepretty A-level podcasts in the
past year or so, so what you'redoing seems to be really
resonating and working on a bigscale.
So honored to have you on, man.

Josh Hall (03:48):
Thanks, josh.
Yeah, I'm excited for thisconversation too, looking
forward to it.

Jonny Miller (03:52):
There's a lot I think we could dive into here
tactically and practically, butI just want to get the quick
backstory for those who don'tknow you, the summary of how I
mean.
How does someone get intocreating a nervous sister system
mastery program?
Hard for me to say how.
What led to, you know, creatinga program like this?

Josh Hall (04:12):
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
Uh, it's a interesting,interesting question.
Um, so the the kind of shortversion of my backstory is I
started, founded a co-founder ofa startup about 13 years ago
now back in 2012 and, um, it wasreally fun, went through tech
stars, kind of raised venturefunding, did all that and five

(04:34):
years into that, kind of endedup going through my own burnout
experience, um, and realizingthat I just been just been
pushing and grinding and I wasno longer feeling alive or
enlivened by the work I wasdoing.
And then, um, I kind of fellinto teaching entrepreneurship
in London for a couple of yearsand, yeah, like two or three

(04:56):
years into that, um, I justexperienced a pretty intense
kind of personal loss.
My former fiance ended uphaving an anxiety attack and
taking her own life and that wasjust like this, you know,
really turned my world upsidedown and um led to me taking a
good amount of time off work andjust really like not only

(05:19):
exploring but like allowingmyself to feel the grief of that
.
And this is kind of speaking tosomeone who was raised in
England, kind of like relativelyemotionally repressed.
I was quite numb from the neckdown, I would say, for most of
my upbringing and it really kindof led me through this where it

(05:39):
ended up being like a reallybeautiful journey.
And I kind of ended up beinglike a really beautiful journey
and I kind of I kind of startedto appreciate how much I needed
to kind of unlearn and relearnaround what I later realized the
common thread was kind of thenervous system, but specifically
just even like listening to thefeedback of my body, um, coming

(06:00):
into like a more healthyrelationship with my emotions,
um, and all these otherpractices that I've now kind of
started to to correlate.
But really it started out as akind of deeply personal,
internal journey and then I, asI started working again, I
gradually started uh coaching,burnt out CEOs and founders that
evolved into kind of a seriesof workshops and masterclasses

(06:23):
and then at some point Irealized there's like there was
like enough material to create acourse and you know I had a
background in in marketing andin I could create like a notion
webpage and put that on super.
And uh, the first version ofthe course was, you know, pretty
, probably pretty embarrassing,especially, um, for your
audience of web designers.
No judgment here.

Jonny Miller (06:46):
We've all had those sites at some point,
sometime or another.

Josh Hall (06:49):
But it resonated and it was really fun for me and
enlivening and I felt like Didit work, did it sell?

Jonny Miller (06:57):
I mean, sue, even a bad design can sell sometimes.

Josh Hall (06:59):
It did.
It did work.
It worked a lot more than Ithought it would, and that was
maybe two and a half three yearsago and yeah, I've just been
kind of iterating on that andlearning more and listening to
students and refining things, um, and yeah, it's it's fun and
it's nice because I get to kindof be in this intersection of
like both kind ofentrepreneurship and like I'm

(07:21):
like designing the website anddoing the marketing and writing,
but I'm also teaching andholding space and and running
like life workshops.
So I really like the.
The kind of like allows me toplay in some of the different
like diverse skill sets thatI've acquired over the years.

Jonny Miller (07:40):
Yeah Well, I was going to ask, like how did you
end up and probably a softballquestion for you, because I
would imagine all of thiscircles back to some been some
sort of, you know, movingforward with grief or some sort

(08:07):
of trauma related stuff orwellness programs, which
obviously that term is a hugeumbrella term for so many things
.
But how did you end up gettinginto the nervous system side of
things, for a lack of a betterterm, like you know what I mean
Like there could have been allthese different subsets.
You probably could have doveinto what, what led to
specifically nervous systemstuff yeah.

Josh Hall (08:29):
So I think for me there was a moment when I kind
of realized that the nervoussystem was kind of the bridge
between a lot of these practicesand things that you know five,
ten years ago were kind of likein the woo category.
Like you know, breath works inthere as well, but that um, you
know there was some really kindof practical both theories and

(08:52):
practices that um relatedirectly to the nervous system
that were incredibly helpful forpeople in the moment and were
also a bridge to some of thedeeper like emotional work and
things that I'd been involved in.
So I really saw the nervoussystem as this like beautiful
bridge that kind of speaks topeople um where they're at and
kind of can can really give avaluable lens on the symptoms

(09:16):
that people are experiencing andthen also kind of suggests some
valuable mechanisms andpractices to help to kind of
come back into a state of likeregulation and grounded safety
and aliveness and vitality didyou have like a light bulb
moment in your journey afterwhat you went through and then
eventually get into this pointwhere you were creating material

(09:39):
and information off it?

Jonny Miller (09:41):
was it a gradual thing into this nervous system
mastery?
Or did you have like a yeah,like a light bulb moment that
was like, oh my god, it's allconnected and this is the you
know.

Josh Hall (09:50):
This is the key the, the kind of, yeah, the kind of
words, the kind of a few of them, I think.
Um, one of the like light bulbmoments, I'll say was like in
the depths of the grief, therewas a moment where, um, it
actually it felt like I wasexperiencing like awe and wonder
and rapture, and it was thesense of like, oh, like, maybe

(10:12):
grief isn't so terrible, likethe actual experience of grief
was was something beautiful andum, yeah, I mean the the more
that I just started to seeeverything through the lens of
the nervous system, the more Ijust saw how it was so
intimately woven with a lot ofthe stuff that I cared about.

Jonny Miller (10:32):
Now the nervous system itself is not something.
I don't know how it is inEngland, but in the States it's
not ever talked about Ever, likemedication, healthcare,
everything.
There is never a mention ofnervous system stuff.
I guess, unless you know,you're at a at a point where
maybe that's something thatsomebody looks into or your
doctor looks into, but likethrough school, like I basically

(10:55):
never heard it talked aboutmuch.
So what?
I guess this is probably likethe most elementary style
question ever, but it's probablygood to maybe just set this the
foundation of like what is it?
What is the nervous system?
For those, even myself, I mean,I kind of know, but I'm like
you know what I guarantee.
After this hour with you, I'mprobably going to have a very

(11:17):
different lens of what thenervous system is, cause I just
think about it as somethingyou'd try to control if you're
nervous.
That's about my extent ofknowledge on it.

Josh Hall (11:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, there's a bunch ofdifferent ways to answer that
question.
I think one of the mostinteresting that I like to lead
with is it's essentially thefilter or the medium of our
experience of life, of reality.
Like everything we experience,every interaction, everything we
do is all mediated through thestate of our nervous system, and

(11:46):
often a lot of people will feelsomewhat disempowered, they'll
feel like they're kind ofvictims of their nervous system
reactivity or they'll rely onsubstances, you know, things
like Adderall, uppers or Xanax,to kind of kind of downshift.
And one of the one of the mostempowering things that I that I

(12:07):
learned was that there are thesekinds of levers we can like
consciously upshift anddownshift and control the state
of our nervous system, to be ina state where we can kind of be
more intentional.
And the frame that I like toshare is that, um, one of the
kind of biggest barriers to ouragency in life and to living

(12:27):
intentionally, to kind ofshowing up as the person we want
to be, to living according toour values, are these moments
where we fall into kind ofreactive states.
This could be, you know, gettingsuper angry at someone, it
could be falling into anaddictive pattern or tendency.
There are so many ways thatreactivity looks.
But learning how to reduce thehalf-life of reactivity so going

(12:50):
from spending like two days ortwo weeks in one in this kind of
like dysregulated reactivestate down to like two days,
down to two hours, down to likeyou know, two minutes, that
really makes a big difference insomeone's life because you can
dramatically increase the amountof time that you spend in a
kind of grounded, intentional,calm, creative place.

(13:13):
Um, so I think that's that'sone of the like more important
kind of lenses through thenervous system.
You know, I can obviously talkabout like the biology and the
science of how it works, butthat's less, uh, it's less like
practically useful and more justlike intellectually interesting
.

Jonny Miller (13:30):
How do you uh, let's just dive into that right
there with like reducing kind oflike the mention, like the
state that you're in, that couldbe self-sabotaging for maybe up
to you know, days, weeks, maybeeven months at a time?
How do you?
What's, what's the practicalelement of like how you get out
of that?
Do you, do you allow yourself alittle bit of time to feel it,

(13:52):
to go through it and try torebound?
What's the practical ways ongetting out of that Totally so
two things to mention here.

Josh Hall (14:00):
The first is that these reactive states are not
inherently bad.
Right, they are kind ofadaptive strategies that our
nervous system that is,essentially our nervous system
and our brain are trying to makepredictions about the world
around us the entire time.
And at one point the predictionof going into kind of a
reactive state was beneficial itactually served us in some way

(14:21):
but it's no longer useful oradaptive.
Um, there are two forms of thisreactivity.
One form is hyper arousal,which is like going up into,
let's say like anxiety,overwhelm, panic.
It's kind of like, um, don'tfeel safe and there's this, or
really hard to downshift.
That's like on one end.
And then the other end is um,more like freeze, withdrawal,

(14:45):
numbness, disassociation,collapse, so kind of like
there's two, there's two ways,and most people kind of tend
towards one or the other inreally high stress situations.
But the way that I think aboutmoving out of that state is
there's kind of three skills orlike three stages that I think

(15:05):
about.
The first skill is justlearning to notice when you're
approaching that reactive state.
So I think of this asinteroceptive sensitivity, which
is a fancy way of saying beingaware of your body and and like
really importantly, noticinglike what are the warning signs
of like when you're two or threeout of ten?

(15:25):
So maybe it's like there's likea slight tightness in your
throat, or maybe there's like aheat in your chest or maybe
there's a kind of like thoughtstend to spiral.
You know, everyone has thesedifferent like markers, and
tracking this for yourself andlike knowing what yours are
allows you to even have theawareness of like okay, I'm
noticing my body withoutjudgment is like moving into

(15:45):
this reactive state.
I want to take another path.
That's.
That's actually like one of themost important pieces, because
if you, if you miss that, it'sreally hard to come back when
you're like a 10 or a 10 out of10.
The second area is what I thinkof as self-regulation.
So this is essentially buildinga toolkit of practices.
These can be top down, bottomup and outside in.

(16:06):
I'll explain.
What those mean is essentiallymost things that people think of
when they think of likemindfulness, or like positive
reframing or affirmations, ortelling yourself a different
story.
That's like using the mind tokind of change the body,
basically, and they for sure canbe helpful.
Um, but the the kind of categoryof practices that I think are

(16:29):
underappreciated are thebottom-up practices, and these
are basically using the body,using the breath, to downshift
the system and then change thetypes of thoughts and feelings
that we're having.
So this could be things likehaving an extended exhale breath
, it could be humming for aperiod of time, it could be
doing like long hold stretches,like yin yoga, for example, or

(16:53):
um, you know, all of thesepractices that that leverage our
physiology to um, downshift oursystem, and then that, you know
, has a cascading effect inblood chemistry and then that
crosses the blood brain barrierand then we start to notice that
we have like calmer, morerelaxed thoughts and feelings as
a result of doing thesebottom-up practices.
And then the third category,outside in, is basically

(17:15):
changing our environment, andthis includes the people as well
.
So I think, if our nervoussystem is like a instrument that
we are constantly tuning withthe people and the environment
and the sounds and the stimulusaround us, so you know, a really
obvious example is like ifsomeone goes from like a busy
new york city street into like akind of dimly lit, kind of

(17:40):
relaxing music, lavender,scented room, they are going to
start to feel a lot calmer.
And if the people around themin that room are also in a
grounded state, that will alsohave an effect.
And so you start to kind oflike build a picture of these
different ways that you canaugment your, the state of your
nervous system, and then I'mtalking a lot here.

Jonny Miller (18:01):
But this is great, this is fascinating the third
category is emotional fluidity.

Josh Hall (18:08):
So this is, I would say, kind of the crux of what I
teach and actually takes a longtime to practice and learn.
But once you've found thatgrounded, centered state you've
done let's say it's likeextended excel practice or some
humming you feel okay, I'm likeback in my body, but I still
feel, I still notice thisanxiety in my system.
Then the move is I think of itas like courageous curiosity, so

(18:31):
it's like dropping whatever thestory is Like, let's say.
Let's say someone just sent mea really angry email or actually
the stocks crashed today.
It's kind of a relevant example.
I'm like noticing this anxietyin my system.
I just lost a shit ton of money, um, which actually did happen,
and uh, yeah, and, and thenthere's there's a sense, a sense

(18:52):
of like okay, like what is thatsensation?
And really following thesensation in your body and like
welcoming it and um allowing thebody to express and and feel
whatever that emotion is.
And my view on anxiety is thatactually, anxiety in itself
isn't an emotion.
It's a protective strategyagainst underlying emotions.

(19:13):
So for me, in the stock marketexample, it might be the anxiety
is masking a fear of I'll seeif I can make this true a fear
of, um, not having enough moneyin the future for our family's
foundations, and then maybe,underneath that there might be a
sense of maybe like I didsomething bad, or a sense of
shame that I put money in at abad time and that makes me a bad

(19:37):
person.
And that sense of shame is likechallenging and sticky to feel.
And so, by doing that kind ofexploration and specifically
feeling the sensationsassociated with the fear and the
shame, and like welcoming themback into the, my experience,
there's a sense of like ease,expansiveness.
I notice tension, kind ofrelease, and it's like, oh,

(19:57):
there's like ease and that'skind of the, that's kind of the
the end of the cycle, and thenyou just repeat that every time
you get triggered by something,it's like interceptive curiosity
.
How do I come back to myselfand self-regulate?
And then how do I welcome theunderlying emotions that are
being triggered by this externalcircumstance and take ownership

(20:20):
for those emotions that arearising in me?

Jonny Miller (20:24):
What's the highlight of those three tips
again, is it essentially somesort of awareness, and then
practice, like breath work, theactual physical things you can
do, and then practice likepractice, like even breath work,
the actual physical things youcan do, and then exploration.
Is that a fair?

Josh Hall (20:38):
that's pretty much it , yeah awesome.

Jonny Miller (20:41):
Well, my next question was how a lot of this
applies day to day for designers, entrepreneurs, business owners
.
I think your example perfectsegue, johnny.
That example is exactly what Iwas hoping we'd get to is like
how practically this stuff canwork out.
I mean, when I think aboutnervousness as a web designer

(21:01):
and entrepreneur, it's typicallyin the form of, like a
presentation or a nerve wrackingcall that you have a big deal
that's on the line, or maybe youhave to fire a team member or
something like that.
That's, you know, a prettyclassic nervous.
You know you're just nervous,or maybe you're even anxious,
but um, and I'd love to diveinto the difference between
those two as well.

(21:21):
But I do appreciate you sharingwhat you literally went through
today, because I was wonderingwhat this looks like day to day.
So how did you?
How far are you from thathappening?
Has this been all day or was itright before the call?
Um have, do you have?
Has what you've learned overthe past few years?
Are you at a place now to whereyou can cause I would have
never known that about you today.
Are you able to regulate it towhere you can still carry on

(21:45):
business as usual?
Do calls, get shit done andthen feel this later, explore it
later.
Is that how it works?

Josh Hall (21:52):
Yeah, so a few, few really important things to
mention here.
Firstly, um, there is a skillof building capacity, um, and I
can talk about what those are,so that, like, it's not always
appropriate to kind of feel anemotion in the moment.
Like, for me, if I was like gointo a deep emotional process
right now in a podcast, probablynot the best timing yeah, I was

(22:15):
like.

Jonny Miller (22:15):
I was just thinking.
If I was like, hey, john, niceto me and you're like, well, I'm
glad you're having a good time,but my stocks and I just start
bawling and they're like kind ofcurling up in a fetal position
on the floor like it doesn'tmake a great conversation, yeah,
so.

Josh Hall (22:28):
So there is a skill of um, I'd say of like,
appropriate timing, um, but soan important kind of caveat is
that, uh, our, like humannervous systems have developed
an incredible capacity to bufferour emotional responses for the
future, and you can see a kindof pretty intense, visceral
example of this if you search Ithink it's like tranquilized

(22:50):
bear, or even shaking Impala, onYouTube, and what you'll see is
, in the Impala example, itnarrowly escapes being eaten by
I think it's a lion, and you seeit kind of like stumbling over
to kind of crouch behind a bushand once it settles down, the
Impala starts like shakingintensely for maybe kind of 60

(23:13):
to 90 seconds and then just likegets up and what goes on with
this day, and that shakingprocess was like discharging the
, the intense stress of almostdying.
And so with humans, we, youknow, we equate stock market
crashing with some some form oflike I'm gonna die.
It's basically how that'sinterpreted by the very ancient

(23:35):
kind of reptilian nervous system.
And so setting aside time toallow that um, literally like,
allow the stress and themobilization reflex to complete
is, is really important, um, I'dsay for me personally, I've
definitely, um, I've definitelyincreased my capacity to hold a
lot more intensity.
So that looks like, you know,things like going on bigger

(23:58):
podcasts Like the first time Iwent on um Lenny Ruchitsky and
then modern wisdom.
I was really nervous beforethose calls.
I was like like my whole systemwas activated.
There was the sense of like,like my, my mouth started
getting a bit dry, um, andthere's a way in which you kind
of like you, titrate.
So you know, a musicianwouldn't go from playing in

(24:20):
front of a few friends toplaying in front of, like, a
crowd of a hundred thousandpeople.
There is a kind of titrationprocess where you gradually
increase your window oftolerance to be able to kind of
um, hold more intensity, let'ssay so that's definitely part of
the process.
And then the other piece is isjust learning to um welcome and

(24:43):
uh, essentially it sounds likewoo-woo but like love, the full
spectrum of your emotionalexperience, and that's
definitely something that youknow.
I'm I not perfect, but I thinkI've got a lot better at
noticing when I might beexperiencing something like fear
or shame or or anger, and, uh,not making it bad or wrong, even

(25:03):
something as intense ashelplessness, which is something
I've seen in.
A lot of, a lot of reallysuccessful entrepreneurs that
I've worked with have a deep,deep, deep fear of helplessness,
and so they've constructed alife where they have like
maximum agency.
They create these likeincredibly outwardly successful
businesses, but on some deeplevel there's like I feel

(25:24):
terrified of feeling helplessand really like
counter-intuitively feeling thathelplessness.
There's like a kind of deepfreedom and like almost like
existential relief.
On the other side.

Jonny Miller (25:37):
That is, um, it's quite hard to describe, but
let's dive into this buffer ideaa little more here, johnny,
just because you know, we talkedabout some basic examples a
minute ago where a lot of webdesigners and entrepreneurs may
feel nervous presentations, youknow, awkward relationship stuff

(25:57):
in the business or whatever itis.
But one thing I've noticed,because I coach a lot of web
designers now, is I'm hearingthe stories and getting
real-time feedback from peoplethat I had never got in years
prior before, like coaching themin some way, and what I mean is
like I'm hearing about themhaving cancer, going through a
diagnosis, or their parent dies,or they're having issues in

(26:20):
their family, whatever it is, orthey're suddenly now like their
their nervous system is spentor shot because they've just got
so much going on, maybe on thepersonal side of things, but
like the mortgage company isn'tgoing to say I'm so sorry you're
going through this, we'll justpush our payments back a few
months, don't worry about it,you still have to do your job,

(26:44):
often depending on your businessand setup Bills, don't care.
Basically is what I'm trying tosay.
So I feel like it's so valuableto know how to channel this and
have a buffer in a place foreven when life happens.
So, with that idea in mind, Iguess I'm almost wondering, like

(27:05):
what are some of the tips tobuild that buffer so you can
continue?
Obviously, there may be a timefor a break a couple of days or
a week or a couple of weeks butoutside of a couple of weeks,
most entrepreneurs and webdesigners need to get back to
work.
So how do we get back to workwhen something's going on?
I guess that's the moresuccinct question.

Josh Hall (27:24):
Yeah, so you can.
You can absolutely build upwhat I think it was almost like
like emotional debt, in the sameway that, like if you're
struggling financially, you cankind of take out, take out a
loan from a bank, pay someinterest.
Um, I think the the analogyholds pretty well Um, the
practices that I think are thisis interesting I've never really
talked about this specifically,but um, both um, noticing how

(27:50):
your body specifically isholding tension and learning how
to relax that tension willallow your system to hold more
intensity.
Like, if I kind of say to youright now, like don't feel any
emotion, the only way you coulddo that would be by like, really

(28:11):
like, like, tensing everymuscle in your body to like not
feel.
Um, and so, to the degree wayyou could do that would be by
like, really like, like tensingevery muscle in your body to
like not feel um and so, to thedegree that you can kind of
relax and open to the intensityof what's happening.
And you know that's what I tryand do before these really big
podcast episodes.
I just try and kind of likeit's like, and you can kind of,
um, practically speaking, youcan, you can literally expand

(28:33):
your awareness.
So when we're stressed, whenwe're, um, worried about shit,
our awareness gets verycontracted almost.
It's almost like experiencinglife, to like a straw that's
like right in front of you andyou can just like consciously,
like expand that out to be awareof, like the space to the side,
behind, above, below, and thatsense of like expansive
awareness there's.
There's more space to hold, moreintensity, and the same goes

(28:57):
for many of these otherparticularly the bottom-up
regulation practices.
They help our body to feel safe, even when the story might be
how am I going to pay rent, etc.
Etc.
What if I'm going to lose myjob?
There's a way that you can likeallow your body to feel safe
and have more capacity, even asthese intense situations are

(29:18):
arising.
Um, let's see it was.
It was something else I wasgoing to mention, but, uh, yeah,
I'll pause there and, um, maybeit'll come back to me.

Jonny Miller (29:26):
Well, that's great .
Yeah, I was kind of curious,particularly if it's through a
season.
Um feel like, if it's an eventwe've talked before on the show
and I know the value, I knowit's the hottest thing these
days which is some sort ofbreath work, like you mentioned,
and just physically controllingor putting yourself in a state
on how you feel.
But even apart from that, I'mwondering if you're in a
situation where shit has hit thefan, life is happening,

(29:49):
whatever life may bring you, andespecially if it's in the
period of a couple weeks or amonth or whatever, I'm wondering
, like, is it more of a dailypractice?
Would you consider doingsomething that you would
normally do once or twice a dayand make that into a habit day
to day through that season?
You know what I mean.
Like is there a?
You know, if you're like a,like a habitual type of thing
with these practices that youwould try to make habit, totally

(30:11):
, yeah.

Josh Hall (30:11):
So it's a great question.
So there's a few things tobasically like basically
increase your capacity and yourresilience Capacity is like how
much stress can you hold in themoment?
Resilience is how effectivelycan you downshift after a
stressful situation?
And I think particularly theresilience piece is important to
train because you know knowsomeone's going to be able to

(30:32):
withstand a, let's say, like astressful season if they have
practices of like microdownshifting um, because if
they're in the kind of fightflight intensity the whole time,
that emotional debt is going topile up a lot quicker than if
they are going through kind oflike mini intense sprints and
then downshifting, relaxingintense sprint and then
downshifting, relaxing, relaxingintense sprint and then

(30:52):
downshifting, relaxing Um.
One of my favorite practiceshonestly is um, called non-sleep
deep rest or NSDR, and this islike a.
It's like a 10 to 15, maybe 20minute Um.
It's kind of like a power nap,but you're kind of doing a
guided body scan of your systemand that I'm, even if I'm

(31:12):
feeling like pretty tired orexhausted by 1 or 2 pm after
that I feel like renewed andnourished and like ready to go
for the afternoon.
As opposed to the other path oflike you know, maybe someone
drinking a double espresso or acoffee, which is then going to
have, uh, downstreamconsequences for their sleep
that night and then theirrecovery the next day, and that
will kind of become a negativespiral.

(31:34):
So I think that there's a largerole for um having these
practices that allow fordeliberate defocusing um in.
You know, the same way peoplehave practices for focusing.
You actually, like, the humanbody can't sustain focus for
more than an extended period oftime.
It needs to defocus and thenthe dopamine kind of gets

(31:56):
restored and they can kind offocus again.
So having, whether it's, likeyou know, really practically
working in Pomodoro's and having, for the five minute break, not
looking at a screen, doing somestretching, doing a breathing
practice, some kind of, somekind of simple breath work, um,
going outside getting likeactual natural light is also

(32:18):
really helpful.
Um.
And then, if, if it's available, I really like to try and add
in like an nsdr practice afterlunch for, let's say, 15 minutes
um and those three things, andthen on a weekly basis, if we're
kind of talking about cadence,having some kind of spaciousness
for feeling any bufferedemotional responses from that

(32:42):
week.
So for me that might be a 60minute breath work, a journey.
There's other things that couldlook like, but essentially a
space to permission anythingthat hadn't been felt from the
previous week.

Jonny Miller (32:57):
I want to share this.
I've never shared this publiclybefore, but I think it's
important for this context.
But I always kind of wonderedwhat happened when so I actually
we had to reschedule this callbecause my daughter recently had
a surgery and we just had arough day a couple days after
recovery.
So you know, I have a specialneeds daughter and the fall of

(33:19):
2022, she actually had atraumatic brain injury.
She had a seizure that lastedthroughout the night.
We found her the next morning.
I've been really open aboutthis on the show and a lot of
people know about it, but thevery long and short of it is she
had a traumatic seizure throughthe night, found her in the
morning.
We called the squad.
We all rushed up there.
We didn't know what was goingto happen.

(33:39):
We thought we might lose her.
They were able to give her somesort of med that put her to
sleep and got her off out of theseizure and then started the
recovery process.
Seizure and then started therecovery process.
We didn't know if we were goingto be at our children's
hospital for a day or two daysor two months.
We had no idea what to expect.

(34:00):
So she slept for almost twodays and started to come out of
it, and I'm saying this becauseI handled that really well.
My wife did too.
We're both very good underpressure and under stress, and
it was purely reactive.
We did not have time to sit andthink about what had happened

(34:21):
or experience the trauma likeyou mentioned, like really just
being awareness and exploringthat.
We just didn't have time forthat.
My wife was 37 weeks pregnantat that time too, and the stress
of that caused my little guy tobe born.
Just four days after thathappened with my daughter, and

(34:42):
she was still at Children'sHospital.
So my wife, her water broke.
She's having my son at anotherhospital.
We're dealing with my daughter,bria, at Children's Hospital.
My other daughter is at homewondering what the heck is going
on, and I was with my wife andwe had covet all at that same
time too, so it was just a shitstorm of like lifetime movie
script that was going on.

(35:03):
Um, after my I say all this tosay after my son was born, the
day after, it was our first timewhere it was literally quiet
because my other daughter wasstill at the hospital and
children's recovering and shewas starting to make progress.
But something obviously wasn'tright.
She never fully recovered fromit.
Um, and that day, when we werejust sitting down I remember my

(35:25):
wife was holding my little guyand I was just sitting down.
It was like the first moment,in the first time of my life
I've I've always been veryregulated, never had anxiety or
depression or anything like that, but it was the first time that
I ever had.
I guess was some sort of I don'tknow if it was a panic attack
or an anxiety attack, but I justlike this overwhelming cloud

(35:48):
hit me and I just felt like Ihad to get out and I was like
dry heaving.
My wife thought I was throwingup.
She's like what is going on,what's wrong?
And I just like dry heaved.
So I was just like breathing,trying to throw up.
Couldn't throw up, so I justbreathe.
And I just sat back and putlike a cold towel on my head.
All that to say.
After that I literally got upand I just had to go see my

(36:09):
daughter at Children's Hospitaland that helped calm me down.
But it was the first time thatI ever experienced that buildup,
like you talked about, of thatemotional debt that was not
released in any way.
So I think it would have reallybenefited me in that week that
we went through and that wasjust the start of well a few
weeks after that, but thatinitial traumatic week that we

(36:31):
went through in so many ways itwould have really benefited me
to know some of this nervoussystem stuff, cause I think my
nervous system was completelyshot and that was the way my
body reacted.

Josh Hall (36:40):
Yeah, wow, well, thank you so much for sharing
that.
And that's such a beautifulexample, um, kind of
demonstrating exactly what we'vejust been talking about.
Um, and you know, as you, asyou say, like that, that's maybe
a kind of like a much moreintensified and extreme example
of what can happen to a lesserextent on a kind of weekly and

(37:00):
monthly basis.
Um, and you know, our nervoussystems are like very, they're
very intelligent, and so, assoon as you have that kind of um
period of like quiet safety,like down downshift, that's when
all of the emotions that weretriggered during the intensity
it reminded me of the the storywith the bush after yeah yeah

(37:21):
exactly that's how I felt.
It was like my 30 secondsexactly, and and cultivating the
skill in those moments to justallow the body to do whatever it
needs to do, even if, you know,I've been through some
processes where, like, my entirebody will be shaking, my like
arm will be moving in weird ways.
It's essentially the way that Ithink of it is like the body's

(37:42):
way of like unwinding thetension that has been created in
that time.
And sometimes, um, there's a,there's a book by Peter Levine
called waking the tiger, wherehe saw in his clients that they
will literally recreate theexact movements that they
couldn't do at the time ofwhatever happened, and so I
think there was a.
There was a patient who was,like she was maybe like attacked

(38:04):
or something bad happened andshe couldn't run away, and so on
.
On his table, her feet wouldstart like peddling because
that's the thing they couldn'tdo at the time, and that that
completes the reflex and thenthat allows the kind of like
everything to be released and toand to move on.
So, um, yeah, uh, I mean it'sdefinitely not easy to kind of

(38:29):
create space, especially whenthings are still really intense,
and so kind of having somedegree of just compassion for
yourself and for the peoplearound you is, I think, also
super important.
Um, but it is.
It's.
It's very good to at least havethis perspective of, like, what
might be happening and that, ifyou know, if your body does

(38:49):
start to kind of go into thatkind of response, it's.
There's nothing wrong, it'sjust the body's way of like the
Impala shaking after nearlylosing its life.

Jonny Miller (39:05):
It's actually healing itself by doing that.
What are some of the immediatehelpful things in that type of
state?
Is it breath work?
Is it drink a cold water?
Get sunlight if you can.
Is it just the?
You know the basics of whatwe're probably wired to do.

Josh Hall (39:20):
Yeah, and in that type of state it's um creating a
sense of internal and externalsafety.
So you might've heard how in inpsychedelic journeys they'll
talk about set and setting.
It's basically the same.
It's like be in a, a, in anenvironment that feels safe to
some degree.
So you know, not like crazyloud music or hard, you know

(39:42):
soft surfaces, things like that,and then internally just uh,
reinforcing the fact thatwhatever is is happening is like
okay and is welcome and likecan continue, and not kind of
trying to shut it down or um beany different, if that's, if
that's available, um, gotcha andand then for the and then for

(40:04):
the integration piece, like,let's say, say that, like later
that day or the next morning,really to the degree that it's
possible, some degree of likedeep rest.
It's really in um deep sleepthat the nervous system rewiring
actually happens, and so, again, it may not be possible
depending on the scenario, butto the degree that you can just

(40:26):
allow yourself to rest aftersomething like that experience,
it's very, very helpful I wasjust gonna say I mean, that was
the icing on the cake probably,for what I personally went
through during that first weekwas sleeping on that hospital
couch when I could during whilehaving COVID and waking up
nonstop.

Jonny Miller (40:44):
So I think it was probably the perfect storm.
I will say one thing I'venoticed in dealings and I'm just
basing this off of my personalexperience mainly with my
daughter and with how manysurgeries she's gone through.
I don't want to say that surgerylike waiting for your child to
have surgery, as all parentsknow, it's just one of the worst

(41:04):
feelings when you have to sendthem back and do that.
But I don't know if I want tosay it's gotten easier.
But I will say I've justnaturally learned how to deal
with it better to where, likethe first couple surgeries she
ever had, I'm just kind ofpacing and you can't help but
worry a lot.
Now I tend to like I think I'vebuilt in that buffer like what

(41:25):
you've talked about.
I've got a little more used toit and unknowingly probably went
through some of the steps thatwe've outlined here to kind of
get through those steps.
And, by the way, I know we'retalking a lot about personal
stuff here.
But I feel like all theselessons can translate to
business in the business world,particularly if you're going
through stuff on the personalside and you need to keep your

(41:45):
shit together for a call or, youknow, to get something done.

Josh Hall (41:50):
Yeah, I mean 100, and I I tend to you know my work
and like personal life andbusiness blur to some degree, um
, and you know stress.
So I I think of, I think oflike intimate relationships,
entrepreneurship and creativityas being like three arenas for

(42:11):
basically like surfacing my own,my own stuff, my own stuff to
work through.
And, um, with that perspective,like in the moments when I get
activated or triggered or I'mlike afraid, that's like, I'm
like, oh, that's kind of anopportunity for me to like work
through this thing and to kindof increase my capacity for
future.
Um, so, even though it mightnot be pleasant, there's,

(42:34):
there's part of me that's likehuh, like I wonder like what'll,
what it'll be like on the otherside of this.

Jonny Miller (42:40):
Um, what is your main mission with your mastery
program Is it?
Is it to help folks avoidburnout in some way, or to get
past burnout or something wherethey've, you know, basically
spent their own nervous system?
What's?
Maybe I'm completely off, butyeah, like, what's your mission

(43:02):
with what you do?

Josh Hall (43:06):
It depends who I'm talking to.
Um, I think that you know, know, externally, it's about
spreading nervous systemliteracy and helping folks to
really understand these concepts, because I think it really does
make a huge difference inpeople's lives, especially if
they're paired with practicaltools as well.

(43:26):
Um, I think personally I caremost about the word aliveness
really stands out and I thinkthat when there is a large
amount of emotional debt or inburnout or in these reactive
states, there's a way in which,like our experience of life and

(43:57):
aliveness and fundamentalwell-being that is, I believe,
available to everyone, it justcan be occluded for periods of
time because of this likeemotional debt that we've just
talked about emotional debt thatwe've we just talked about.

Jonny Miller (44:14):
Well, and like you mentioned earlier, as
entrepreneurs, I think it's easyto fall into some sort of
workaholic trap to where, evenif we're not actually behind our
screens working all the time,we all know it's very hard to
turn it off mentally and we canoften work 24, 7, at least
waking hours, and I think it'sreally easy to fall into the
trap of avoidance, like avoidingyour feelings and avoiding

(44:37):
looking at what's really goingon internally, because you just
got so much to do and you gotstuff on your mind and it's, I
almost feel, like it was.
Maybe you'd agree with me andsaying, like you have to rewire
your intentionality with, like,your thoughts, I guess, probably
to like start to turn thatstuff off and give yourself more
attention.

(44:57):
I guess it sounds kind of weird, but I've certainly run into
that trap.
I know a lot of folks a lot ofmy friends and colleagues and
people I coach run into the likeI just can't turn it off, I
can't turn the business mind off.

Josh Hall (45:11):
Yeah, yeah, path to avoidance, I guess it's for sure
a really common thing that Isee with my clients as well.
Um, there's a few things I kindof suggest as like experiments
or like avenues to explore.
I think one is kind of likegetting clear and honest about
the fuel source for what you'redoing.
Um, and a lot of people, whenthey start out in

(45:33):
entrepreneurship, the fuelsource is I want to prove myself
, I want to, or I'm like afraidof going back to whatever it was
that I came from.
Um, and it's not necessarily abad thing, but it's not really
sustainable to kind of bedrawing from that fuel source
all the time.
And so I think about likeswapping the fuel source to some
degree to like genuineexcitement, curiosity, love of

(45:55):
the craft, love of process.
I think that's kind of a bigpiece, um, yeah, yeah, there's.
There's probably more.
I could say that, but I'llpause.

Jonny Miller (46:09):
That's great.
No, I think you're.
You're totally right too.
When somebody gets to a newstage in their journey I've I've
seen that a lot to wherewhether it's um, whether it's
like a why, like you have toreevaluate your why.
Or I had Chris Doe on thepodcast recently and he said he
said something that stuck withme in this realm, which was once
you're killing it, you need tore-evaluate your definition of

(46:33):
success, and I love that idea, Ilove that frame of like.
Okay, yeah, because maybesuccess at first was just to
make enough to pay your billsand do this full-time.
Well, now, maybe that, maybethat changes a little bit.

Josh Hall (46:46):
So well, what's what's really interesting there?
I mean, mean so I'm currentlyworking with a couple of
post-exit founders who have madean insane amount of money, like
millions, millions and millions, and they still don't feel
fundamentally okay and it'sactually a really scary place to
be because they'd orientedtheir life essentially towards

(47:08):
thinking that if I get x amountof money in the bank I will feel
good, I will feel okay and it's, I think, actually, like you
know, underrated.
It can be really terrifying tohave achieved that but not to
feel good deep down.
And so then then there is thislike kind of complete
existential re-evaluation of howthey're orienting and so kind

(47:32):
of coming back to theworkaholism piece you know we
will have these kind ofcompensatory patterns or
defensive accommodations is,like the technical term,
essentially our means ofdisassociating, numbing out, um,
getting a dopamine hit.

(47:52):
That is typically to kind ofavoid feeling a certain thing,
and you can do this for whetherit's like weeks, months, years,
maybe even decades in some cases, um, but usually it requires
some kind of deep introspectionand exploring like what are the?
What are the feelings that I'mkind of deep introspection and
exploring like, what are the?
What are the feelings that I'mkind of running away from here
and actually like turningtowards as opposed to running

(48:16):
away.
Um, that's generally the onlypath available, which a lot of
listeners are probably gonna belike fuck you, I don't want to
do that.
That's fine.
Um, yeah, I I don't, I don't,it's not a moral thing, but
that's just what I've noticedfrom people I've worked with.

Jonny Miller (48:32):
Let me ask you this here, johnny, because, as a
fellow course creator, Iexperienced something I was not
prepared for the first couple oftimes I created courses, but I
want to ask you to see if youexperienced something similar or
the same thing, which is well,let me just ask you how, when
you got your the first time, ifyou can put yourself back to
when you created your firstprogram, how long ago was that?

(48:54):
2022.
Okay, so just just a few yearsago, when you finished the
program and launched it.
I guess it depends on howyou're delivering that, but what
happened to your nervous systemafter you launched and after it
was quote-unquote done?

Josh Hall (49:13):
there was a um, a deep sense of like relief.

Jonny Miller (49:19):
Yeah, yeah, it was like a drop of some sort,
because I've always experiencedmaybe it is relief every course
I ever put out or redo.
There is the weirdest like yeah, I guess release is probably
the best.
It's like a drop, it's like oh,and sometimes it it feels weird

(49:41):
because I feel like you're onsuch a high when you're creating
and you're marketing and you'rejust it's on your mind nonstop
and then once it's out, it'sprobably the same with anything.
It's probably the same withproducing a movie, it's probably
the same.
I used to be a musician.
I felt the same way in someways when we released an album.
Um, I just I've.

Josh Hall (49:59):
I've found that like my nervous system gets depleted
after doing something like thatand you're just like oh, well,
it's like a micro version ofwhat you experienced in the
hospital to some degree, and sofor me it's actually more at the
end of the marketing period,because that's where there's
more uncertainty and there'smore like I'm putting myself out
there more.
I'm actually pretty comfortableand confident in the teaching

(50:19):
side of things.
Like we actually finish ourcohort like tomorrow and I'm
like great.
So for me the drop is moreafter the sales end.
And yeah, it's because there'sa degree of activation, there's
some degree of like in my systemat least like what if I don't
make enough sales, especiallywith cohorts where, like, a lot
of people tend to come in thevery last minute?

(50:41):
You're kind of like like isthis going to work?
Every time it's like are peoplegoing to come, and so that's
yeah, and that creates tensionand then that tension gets
released.

Jonny Miller (50:52):
I think this has become a therapy session to help
me realize why I transitionedfrom a course model to a
membership model Right A coupleyears ago, because that was the
big shift and pivot I had in mybusiness.
I still have my courses that Iused to launch one off, but now
they're just wrapped up in amembership model.
So it is interesting I don'thave those feelings as much now,
because I used to launch oneoff but now they're just wrapped

(51:12):
up in a membership model.
So it is interesting I don'thave those feelings as much now
because I don't launch anymore.
I have, like, many launches butit's not like you mentioned.
You know some people withcertain models.
You live or die by the launch.
So if a launch goes bad, you'rein thick water for a little
while.

Josh Hall (51:25):
But I'm still in that camp, for better or worse.

Jonny Miller (51:33):
Yeah, water for a little while.
But I'm still in that camp forbetter or worse.
Yeah, for better for worse.
Yeah, I know, I saw yournumbers.
I I listened to your chat withjay.
I know you've had some amazinglaunches, so hopefully that, you
know, buys you enough time fora while.
But, um, yeah, man, that'sinteresting.
I really think that madesubconsciously.
I think that may have been apart to me thinking through, you
know, like, could I make thismore sustainable without highs
and lows?

Josh Hall (51:49):
Yeah.
So a really interesting kind ofdirection is like to what
degree do certain businessmodels and approaches create the
conditions for, like long termregulation?
So what I like about mine isthat it's actually very seasonal
.
So I work pretty intensely for,like you know, two weeks of the
promotion period and then runit for five weeks and then
there's like a big break,there's like a lot of

(52:09):
spaciousness and I don't reallyhave many commitments.
So that's my time to likereally kind of recharge and
reset and whatever it is.
But you know, if I was doingthat, if I was doing six, eight
cohorts a year, screw that.

Jonny Miller (52:26):
Like that doesn't feel sustainable in my system
that's such a good point, man,because with my, with my model
now, it's different than that inthe way of I don't have the
extended breaks that you have,but I also don't have the
intense couple weeks with withthat type of model.
But there's definitely there'spros and cons to both.
For sure, like I do think it'sprobably worthwhile going back

(52:48):
to what you said earlier, likebeing really aware of you know,
like maybe how you deal withthings and what you like to do
and what you're willing to takeon.
Some of this may be, you know,seasonal in times of life too.
If you're traveling, maybe thatmodel is good to where you
could do a launch and then havea few weeks to be able to travel
and downshift a little bit, totravel and downshift a little

(53:08):
bit.
But yeah, I have less highhighs and low lows now, but I
don't get the extended breaksthat you might.
But yeah, there's pros and consto both models.
That's interesting, I guess.
Hey, whatever works right, howdoes that work with results,
with your clients?
Do you just get to a pointwhere you're like you just got
to do what works for you?
In what sense?

(53:34):
Uh, just with how they're, youknow, managing their, their
nervous system and how, like inthis type of scenario, you know,
if two course creators came toyou and they're like should I do
the launch model have biglaunches but extended breaks, or
should I have a subscriptionthat I'm on often kind of on
call, but I'm not having the big, you know the roller coaster
emotions like it was previously?

(53:54):
Yeah, how do you?

Josh Hall (53:55):
yeah the approach that I take with pretty much
everything is just likeself-experimentation, so kind of
like jay talks about withmarketing, like design a
hypothesis and then test it andthen reflect exactly the same
with your own kind of umcyclical approach or your own
approach to work.
So I, to the degree possible,test both and pay attention to

(54:17):
how you feel and which youprefer, because I I think you
know two different people, umcould both have very regulated
nervous systems but preferdifferent setups.
You know, like me, and you areprobably a good example like I,
quite like the cohort approach,particularly at least for where
I'm at in life right now, butthat might change over time.
It's kind of hard to say.

Jonny Miller (54:36):
That's well said, man.
Well, johnny, that was a fasthour dude.
This has been great, learned alot, got a lot of ideas.
Kind of fun to share some ofthis stuff that I don't.
You know, there's usually nottoo much of a space to talk
about in the business of webdesign, but I think this is
really important, man, whetherit's on a low level of just like

(54:57):
you know, you're nervous for apresentation, or like what you
went through with some some, youknow, some serious, I mean
trauma, let's call it what it is.
I mean you, I really appreciateyou sharing that.
By the way, I had, no, I didn'tknow about that part of your
story.
And then even you know to whatsome of the things that I've
gone through in my past, likethe reality is at the core of us
moving forward in our lives.
It's the nerve, it's thenervous system.
I feel like all roads lead tothat.

(55:17):
So, um, I really appreciatethis man.
Where should people go to toconnect with you and to maybe
hear about your next cohort?
That's going to be open,because you open and close,
right go yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Hall (55:28):
Thanks, josh, and I really appreciate you sharing
some of your story as well.
Um, that's really meaningful tohear and, in terms of um, yeah,
where listeners can can go next, the best place is nsmasterycom
.
Um, that has links to.
There's a free self-assessmentthat people can take.
It'll give them like a score ofhow regulated they they are in
that moment.
There is a new app that is likea little bit buggy, but I think

(55:51):
it's still pretty good.
It's called state shift and ithas a bunch of these practices
that you know, some of which Italked about.
I think there's like 25 ish onthere right now.
We're going to be adding moreand then the cohorts we run
every spring and fall.
Um, there's also kind of like alifetime membership model as
well, where people can getinstant access to the curriculum
, and that's all available onthe nsmasterycom website.

Jonny Miller (56:14):
Awesome, sweet, we'll have all that linked up,
and I've got you the uh wakingthe tiger book linked up as well
, so I'll make sure we put thisin the show notes.
So well, johnny, appreciate it,man.
Love your work, love whatyou're up to, so keep doing your
thing and uh, yeah, I reallyappreciate you taking the time,
man.

Josh Hall (56:29):
Thanks, josh.
This is a great conversation,Appreciate it.

Jonny Miller (56:33):
Hope you enjoyed this one, friends Again.
Uh, eye opening, mind openingon this one learned a lot from
Johnny, as I'm sure you did.
If you would like to connectwith Johnny and potentially join
one of his cohorts to take thisidea of your nervous system
mastery to the next level, youcan go to his website, which is
nsmasterycom.

(56:53):
That will, of course, be linkedto the show notes for this
episode, which will be found atjoshhallco slash 383.
Big thanks to Johnny for thisconversation and so much more.
So be sure to go to his websiteagain, nsmasterycom.
Leave us a comment, if youwould, if there's anything that
stuck out to you here that youwould like to share with both
Johnny and myself.
Leave us a comment at the shownotes for this pay or for the

(57:14):
for this episode.
Joshhallco slash three, eight,three.
I read all those and I alwaysmake sure my guests see those as
well.
So drop us a comment ifsomething resonated with you and
if even some of the tips wewent over help you and your
nervous system and your overallhealth as an entrepreneur.
Cheers, my friends.
Cheers to being sustainable andenjoying our life as a web

(57:34):
designer, solopreneur,freelancer, agency owner,
whatever bucket you fall into.
Stay subscribed because we'vegot some amazing conversations
ahead and I really appreciateyou listening and taking the
time to be with me here, socan't wait to hear from you.
Cheers, friends.