November 17, 2025 • 58 mins
What better time to learn about the latest (and time-tested) trends for website conversion than heading into Black Friday, Holiday’s and New Year – and that’s what we’re getting into with Greg Merrilees, who literally wrote the book on website conversion with Next Level Website Design.
We’re getting into all the nerdy, nitty-gritty and specific conversion tips and tricks on this one.
Remember, everything you learn here and apply to your site works on client sites making you more and more valuable as a conversion-focused web designer!
Charge accordingly 🙂
Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/405
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg Merrilees (00:00):
Always think of it like a verb, right?
It has to be an action that youwant them to do.
So, you know, have the word getor download or book, you know,
a book or call, etc.
Like make sure there's a verbin there.
And the other tip as well forbutton copy, and we know from
split testing, uh, if you putthe word your, like download
(00:21):
your free report or whateververse, download my free report,
the word my converts better thanyour because it's the first
person that's downloaded.
They want their free report.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to the web design business podcast with
your host, Josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
Josh Hall (00:45):
Hello, hello, my friend.
It's great to have you here.
Is there ever a better time totalk about website conversion
than Black Friday and theholidays?
I think, well, I was gonna sayI think not.
I actually think it's importantto always think about website
conversions.
And that's what we're gonna doin this one.
And I can't think of a betterguest to dive deep into this
(01:06):
topic because we are gonna getnerdy and subsequently more
profitable in this one with theexpert on website conversion,
the guy who just recently wrotethe book on the subject.
This is Greg Merrilles, he's arepeat guest on the show.
His agency Studio One Design isone that I feature in several
of my courses.
I truly look up to him as likethe conversion expert.
(01:28):
He just wrote the book on it,which is called Next Level
Website Design (01:32):
How to Stand Out in an AI Era and Convert Your
Visitors into Sales 24-7.
So that's what we're gettinginto with this one.
Make sure to check out the shownotes for all the links that we
mentioned.
We do cover a few additionalresources that will be found in
the show notes for this one,which can be found at
joshhall.co slash 405.
And again, I really recommendthat you check out Greg's book,
(01:55):
Next Level Website Design.
Remember that everything youapply to your site, you can
apply to client sites, and thatwill make you way more valuable
and you can charge a lot more.
So let's help you do all thatmore by talking website
conversion with the man, GregMerrilles.
Well, Greg, it's great to greatto have you back on the show,
(02:19):
man.
Author now of uh next levelwebsite design.
I have my signed copy righthere.
So really, really appreciatethat, man.
Anytime I get a package fromAustralia, it just feels super
cool.
So thanks, man.
Greg Merrilees (02:33):
Excellent.
You're very welcome.
Yeah.
But uh, yeah, you've beenyou've been a part of my journey
as well.
You we've both been in the samecoaching community.
Uh, and now you've got your owncommunity.
And yeah, I've been watchingwhat you've do, what you've
done, and I've listened to yourpodcast ever since you
interviewed me initially.
I think you've got a greatpodcast.
You have great guests, and youdo great case studies with your
(02:54):
members.
So yeah, it's really supervaluable, even for me.
Josh Hall (02:58):
Well, thank you, man.
That's an honor to hear.
It it is pretty cool.
I'm glad that you said thatjust because I've been doing it
for six years now, coming up onsix years.
And I feel 400 episodes nearly.
Yeah, I think you'll you'll be400 plus.
Yeah.
Oh wow.
Yeah, there you go.
So what's interesting though isI take for granted the the
(03:20):
variety that we get on the show.
Like we have, you know, likeyou mentioned, some case studies
with members of my communitywho may be in the first year of
their business, but they'regetting wins, and folks like
yourself who have been in theindustry for years and are at
the the you know, the the top ofthe echelon of like folks to
learn from.
So I wouldn't say that isreally Chris.
You had Chris Doe on, he's atthe top.
(03:40):
Yeah, Chris Doe, AmyPorterfield, Mike Mikalowitz.
But what what is Troy Dame?
Yeah, James was James Schramp,goes on a couple years ago.
I mean, it is kind of cool thatwe're we all learn from each
other.
And I think you tell me, like,isn't it kind of cool to hear
some of the folks who aregetting started now and to see
(04:01):
what their first couple yearsare like versus you know when
you got started?
Greg Merrilees (04:05):
It's so different, man.
Uh honestly, I've been in thisgame forever, like been in
graphic design forever.
I switched to website designsin 2012, 2013.
But before that, uh, you know,I've I'm pretty old, you know.
So when when I first startedgraphic design, we used to have
dark room, a dark room in thegraphics department, right?
(04:26):
And in there we had this bigDanagraph uh camera, which we
used to enlarge bromides.
You know, so we're talking verylike 25, 30 years ago.
Yeah.
Josh Hall (04:38):
Well, let's just dive in because I mean, I here's
here's what I want to start offwith here.
Why write a book on websiteconversion now?
Because when I was justthinking about you know what
things were like 20, 25 yearsago, I don't know if there was
the terminology of websiteconversion and maybe even
design.
I don't know.
I don't know what it lookedlike.
But why do you feel like now isa time to uh, for lack of a
(05:01):
better term, double-click intowebsite conversion?
Greg Merrilees (05:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's a few reasons,but say initially I'm a learner,
right?
I love learning.
And so that's why I listen toso many podcasts and read books
and watch, you know, YouTubevideos and all that sort of good
stuff.
And I would say having thatmindset of always trying to
learn, um, you do that when youcreate content as well.
You research.
And so then I realized after,you know, probably eight years
(05:29):
of doing research and writingcontent and getting interviewed
and learning from all theseexperts, that it's time to put,
I had so much knowledge, it wasjust time, it was just time.
It didn't matter that the AI iscoming or you're in this type
of era or whatever.
The point is that uh it wasready for me to, you know, share
my knowledge essentially.
And uh also, you know, thebiggest problem is for business
(05:50):
owners, and I know most of youraudience are designers, but they
design for business owners.
And, you know, a lot of theproblem is that these website
designers use all these fancyanimation effects and parallax
and all these thingsinteracting, things flying all
over the page as you scroll.
But unfortunately, those thingsdon't convert, right?
And we do a lot of splittesting with our conversion
(06:12):
optimization service.
And so realistically, I justwant to show people with this
book that it's not about thefancy effects, it's about
trusted principles that work,you know, decade after decade.
Even if AI comes in, you canstill use AI if you understand
these principles to use a AI toget you a better result with
your website and copy.
Josh Hall (06:33):
Are the principles that worked 20, 25 years ago?
I know you were in web then perse, but just based off of your
knowledge and design, would yousay all those principles still
hold true today, large part?
Greg Merrilees (06:47):
Yeah, 100%.
Like, because it's more aboutpsychological drivers.
And um, there's one book, Don'tMake Me Think, by Steve Krug,
which is a very old book.
It's probably 15 years old, andit's exactly talking about, you
know, why people buy and youknow the uh the elements on the
page, the way they're visuallyorganized to attract people, you
(07:09):
know, their eye tracking to theto the right part of the page.
But it goes so much deeper thanthat.
But yeah, so the point is theseprinciples have been around for
a while, but that's just partof it.
And then learning from RobertCialdini and his book Influence,
he has other books too, but youknow, those principles are
timeless, and they're principleson how to persuade people to
take action in life, not just onyour website.
(07:31):
But we use those principles onwebsite design.
So yeah, it goes deeper thanjust design principles.
It's more about the psychology,copywriting frameworks, uh,
pretty much anything that'sgoing to persuade people to take
action on your website.
Josh Hall (07:45):
I'll make sure we link both of those books up.
And what I think this is great.
And I'm actually glad that werecorded an episode a while back
that kind of unpacks your storyand how you build your agency.
Uh, that was episode 330 foranyone who wants to go back and
hear about kind of your journeyand building your agency up and
serving so many clients andscaling.
(08:06):
Because I would imagine, andit's funny because even before
we connected, I I featured yoursite in a lot of my courses as
like a great example ofconversion-based design.
I would imagine a cornerstoneto your agency growth and
sustainability is justconversion design, right?
I mean, that's what I know youas.
(08:26):
That's I imagine that's likethe the key to your guys'
success.
Greg Merrilees (08:31):
Exactly.
So, and you'll notice that ifyou had a screenshot of our
website in your course maybe twoyears ago, it's gonna look a
lot different today.
It's probably gonna lookdifferent next week and the week
after and next month becausewe're constantly A B testing and
iterating.
And that is the key to a highconverting website.
So, sure, start with all theprinciples and all of the you
(08:54):
know design uh elements andbrand positioning, which is a
huge thing we can talk aboutbrand positioning.
Uh, but then you know, afterthat, it comes down to your
website is never finished.
So you've got to constantlyiterate, you've got to look at
all of the users on your websitethrough heat maps, through
videos, uh, through all of youranalytics of pathways that
(09:15):
they're taking from page topage, and then hypothesize,
which is really just a fancyword saying, you know, figure
out what you can try next tocapitalize more of those uh
users to turn them into aconversion.
And conversion could be just aclick to get to another page,
could be to book a call, to buysomething, download a lead
magnet, start a free trial, etc.
(09:35):
It's really just making sureyou want to increase that uh
conversion rate overall on everyevery page of your website.
Josh Hall (09:43):
Let's drill in real quick, because I would love to
talk about brand positioning,but real quick, do you think
there should just be one call toaction throughout a site?
Especially uh like what areyour thoughts on that?
Because I have mixed feelings,of course it may depend, but I
have seen and learned that ifyou tell P, if you have, for
example, contact us, let's talk,get started, schedule a call
(10:07):
and buy now on a homepage,that's five different call to
actions.
Confusion is a great way tolose business.
Like I've just really more andmore felt very, very uh secure
in telling my students one callto action.
What are you what are yourthoughts on that?
Greg Merrilees (10:23):
Yeah.
So again, there's differenttypes of use cases, right?
So let's say if it is amembership website, like your
Web Designer Pro, then youreally just want one call to
action, which would be to jointhe membership, right?
Because you could probablyimagine that everybody that's on
that page have heard of youthrough your podcast or through
other means, maybe YouTube,maybe you know, other members.
(10:44):
And so they're relatively warm.
I wouldn't say they'recompletely cold.
And so it does depend on howcold, warm, or hot your visitors
are, right?
And so for you, if they don'tjoin, then I would have an exit
pop that is offering somethingof value uh in return for an
email address that might justbe, you know, a lead magnet of
some sort.
These days we're using AI tocreate a lot of interactive lead
(11:06):
magnets as opposed to PDFs.
They're both, you know,effective, but people want
results instantly.
But if you're talking for ahome page of uh a service
business or a you know abusiness coach or it could be an
e-commerce, it could be anytype of business where you have
cold, warm, and hot traffic,then you need to cater to their
(11:27):
intent and you don't know whattheir intent is.
And so therefore, if it's ahomepage like my homepage, for
instance, we've got uh in thetop nav, we've got a sticky uh
call to action, which is for thefree resources.
So that's for cold leads,right?
Um, and then we have we knowfrom heat tracking the main
thing people want to see on aweb designer's business uh
website is their folio.
(11:48):
So that's our main call toaction.
And then underneath that, wehave different pathways based on
their specific needs, uh, youknow, which could be for them to
uh look at our branding, lookat our website design.
And if they do click on our webdesign service, there is uh a
pop-up that will segment theminto the type of business that
they are, from a personal brandto a service, business to
(12:09):
e-commerce, etc.
And so you really want to tryand cater to Cold Woman Hot, but
then segment them based ontheir uh unique situation.
So yeah, I would say sure.
Um if your traffic's warm, youcan have one call to action.
But if you're excuse me, ifyou're catering to Cold Woman
Hot, you need multiple.
Josh Hall (12:28):
Gotcha.
Okay, that's good.
That's good.
Good to be on that then.
And maybe that is because I'm II am typically helping web
designers who have a warmaudience.
It's rare, like I'm not I'm nothelping people with PPC or cold
traffic or marketing strategiesthat are generally at scale.
It's it's typically likereferral groups, somebody hears
(12:49):
about you, or they, you know,met a networking group, they go
to your website, it's like thefinal conversion piece.
So that makes total sense thatthere should be a strategy in
place for cold, kind of mediumand hot there.
Um I am curious with yourwebsite, and as you mentioned,
you know, this may change evenby the time this goes live, but
um how I'm trying to rememberwhat this looked like when I
(13:11):
featured it, particularly in mydesign course.
I thought your main call toaction was to either like get
started or something, orsomething like that.
Why um I guess one question iswhy free resources and view
portfolio.
So I guess that would probablyget two, that'd get a cold
audience and kind of a mediumaudience.
Greg Merrilees (13:32):
But also the top nav is sticky site-wide top
nav, right?
For the entire website.
Uh apart from the sales pages,we don't have the same top nav.
We have an individualnavigation for that particular
sales page that when pressed,anything in that top nav will
anchor link down the page.
Uh, but basically, yeah, it'sbecause if they're on the blog
(13:54):
or if they're on, you know, anyother type of page on our
website, we want them to seethat free resource.
Okay.
Because they may not, they maynot be ready to buy yet.
But yeah, so sure, it's on thehome page.
But like I said before, themain thing they want to do is
click on the the folio and checkout our folio.
So that's why we have that asthe main call to action in the
main banner.
Josh Hall (14:13):
Gotcha.
But I just checked it out.
And your service, your salespages have get a quote as the
main call to action.
Greg Merrilees (14:20):
Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah.
So well, it does.
There's various button copy.
It's all leading to the samething, which is a form, which
will then lead to book a call.
However, uh, the button copythroughout the page, we're
testing various words in.
Um, so it might say get a quoteon one button, and then it
might say, you know, uh, I wanta high converting website.
Like there's all various uhyeah, quote uh button copy
(14:43):
within that single page, but itall leads to the same thing.
But you'll notice on thosesales pages, there's no top nav
at all until you startscrolling.
Josh Hall (14:55):
Gotcha.
So somebody could zip rightthere and then without even
scrolling, boom, move forward.
Greg Merrilees (15:01):
Well, the point is when somebody's on your home
page, you want to show them thetop nav, all the things that you
offer, essentially, right?
But then when they go to anindividual sales page, you don't
want them to go off to anyother leakage points, which are
other pages on your website.
If they're on a sales page, youwant them to do that one thing.
So we don't have a top nav atall.
Until they start scrolling,then a top nav will appear, but
(15:23):
it just anchor links down toeach section uh of the page,
each relevant section of thepage.
Josh Hall (15:30):
Gotcha.
Let's dive into buttons.
You mentioned the buttons,you're trying some different
wording.
What about what are you seeingworking well for your clients?
Is it is this industry specificwith how creative and fun you
can get?
Because I've seen so manydifferent call-to-action buttons
that are like, yes, I want thisnow, or it's just plain join
now, or get me in, whatever itis.
(15:51):
Like, yeah, what are yourthoughts on the actual permit
for buttons?
Greg Merrilees (15:54):
I would say test, you know, like because
every every business isdifferent, every audience is
different.
So it's a good idea to you knowrepresent your brand with a
button copy, but always think ofit like a verb, right?
It has to be an action that youwant them to do.
So, you know, have the word getor download or book, you know,
a book or call, etc.
(16:15):
Like make sure there's a verbin there.
And the other tip as well forbutton copy, and we know from
split testing, uh, if you putthe word your, like download
your free report or whateververse, download my free report,
the word my converts better thanyour because it's the first
person that's downloaded, theywant their free report.
Josh Hall (16:36):
Gotcha.
That's really cool.
Well, I see that's what's sogreat about kind of your
high-level view on this, too,your bull, your bird's eye view,
just because I know you're sointo A B testing and research.
And I imagine that's great forclients too, because you could
be like, hey, we tried this outon this client, and just by
switching the your to my, you wecould roll this out.
Greg Merrilees (16:56):
Yeah, we do that a lot like yeah.
Sorry to cut you off.
Um, yeah, I'm just thinkingthere's one thing in particular
that a lot of designers miss.
So designers listening, uh payattention to this one.
So if you think about thehamburger menu on mobile for
most websites, most people justdo exactly the same what's in
their top navigation, right?
(17:18):
Um, and they'll just list itdown the page.
However, that we've we've doneyou know dozens of tests on
various websites from e-commerceto service businesses.
And what we've discovered isthat in mobile menu, uh, you
know, from the hamburgerdrop-down, we can generally uh
see which ones are gettingclicked on the most.
And so therefore, we'll reorderthose.
(17:40):
And it's usually different towhat's on the top nav of a
desktop.
Not only do we reorder them,but we put social proof in
there.
We put images for services, wehave sliders that go across the
page.
Kind of think of it like an appin an app store where you'll
see two and a half squares, andthe half indicates that there's
more than and you can scrollacross.
So we do that with our um uh,you know, navigation in in
(18:03):
drop-down menus, and the resultsare incredible.
Like it's almost like a mini uhyou know sales page in a very
short format, and it's reallyjust all above the fold on a
mobile screen.
But yeah, the results areincredible.
Uh, you'll get way betterresults if you put a lot of
effort into thinking about thatuh mobile menu.
Josh Hall (18:21):
Would you recommend on mobile, especially for sites
who may have quite a few pages,or even if it's five to ten
pages?
Like, I don't know on mobile iffolks are gonna research the
same way they would on desktop.
May depend on the industry, ofcourse.
But do you recommend basicallya condensed version of the site
on mobile?
Greg Merrilees (18:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So think about you know,according to things would be
collapsed, not expanded.
Uh, you can still have the sameamount of information, but just
presents it in a different way.
But yeah, I would sayabsolutely.
Obviously, you need to optimizeall of the images, recode them,
you know, re-upload them as aweb P that's at the actual size,
not just a large image that'sreduced down in size.
(19:01):
Uh, but yeah, in general, youwant to simplify it because,
yeah, and especially if peopleare coming to your website from
paid traffic, um, they're notgoing to give you much time.
So you just they're gonna stopat headlines, they're not gonna
read a lot.
So it just needs to give themexactly what they need and then
have the right pathway based ontheir intent.
Josh Hall (19:21):
Before we move into brand positioning, I want to ask
you this, Greg.
And I want to say I will not beoffended if you don't agree
with this.
If you feel like you need toshred it, just hit me.
But I have I've I've I've trieda few different and toiled
around with this, but I'velanded on using Become a Pro for
my main call to action on WebDesigner Pro.
(19:42):
This is a super timelyconversation because actually,
for the past two weeks, I'vebeen building out the new
version of WebdesignerPro.com.
Right now it's just one biglanding page.
The next version are going tobe segmented pages for courses,
community coaching, and expandson a few other areas and a
separate page for me as abusiness coach for SEO.
So I'm wondering, yeah, likeshould become a pro be the main
(20:05):
call to action still, or do youfeel like uh yeah, what are your
thoughts on that?
Or would just join now and doit?
Greg Merrilees (20:12):
Yeah, I mean, it has it has a uh a verb in it,
become, right?
So that's a good thing.
Um, and look, I would say itthe the word in pro ties in with
your brand.
And that's what you're takingpeople from just a web designer
to a web designer pro.
So it ties in with your mainmessaging.
I don't have a problem with it.
If you're concerned about it,potentially split test it
(20:34):
against something else, join nowor join membership.
Uh, join membership has moreclarity.
And, you know, I guess if itsays become a pro, there's not
as much clarity.
But if you read the headlinebefore it and the subheadline,
it's pretty clear on what'sgoing to happen if they if they
press that button.
Josh Hall (20:51):
Well, you definitely encourage me to once I roll out
these pages with particularlybecause my have I have a tiered
community now, particularly withthe course pages, the community
pages, and then the coachingpage, to probably have the main
call to action be separate onthose, have one join courses,
join community, join coaching orsomething like that.
(21:11):
Yeah.
Again, I'm gonna take anotherbook out of the Studio One
Design website books.
Greg Merrilees (21:16):
So excellent.
Yeah, and like I keep saying,like you've got to test these
things because we're onlyguessing.
And you know, everything thatyou have on this page is best
practice.
You have a ton of social proof,you have benefits, you let
people know what they canexpect.
And I think it's got all theelements, right?
But um, if you were to splittest this and change the call to
(21:38):
action button or change uh somesections around, just try
moving some sections up or downthe page, you might find just
doing little things like thatcould tweak your uh conversions
by it might be another 10%,which is huge.
Josh Hall (21:52):
What are you using to do split testing um and then
and measuring as well?
Are you using like MicrosoftClarity or anything or a
different heat map tool?
Greg Merrilees (22:01):
Yeah, love that.
If anybody has not heard ofMicrosoft Clarity, get it, put
it on your website, it's totallyfree, it's forever free, and
that has heat maps and you know,user videos of everybody that's
on your website.
And they have AI built into itas well to summarize pages
because it can be time consumingand overwhelming to you know
study the user behavior.
So that's one tool.
(22:21):
But then for split testing,Visual Website Optimizer is a
great tool for that.
Um, there's plenty of othertools as well, but that's one
that we've you know sort ofleaned on the most lately.
Uh, there's some WordPressplugins that are half decent as
well.
Um, but yeah, that's one thatwe use for split testing.
Josh Hall (22:37):
Gotcha.
And I am a Divi guy.
I'm pretty sure I haven't usedit, but I think Divi has an A-B
split tester, pretty sure.
Um now I imagine beforefiguring out your call to action
or call to actions, it'sprobably all about how you're
positioned.
So when it comes to like cold,medium, or hot audiences, is
that kind of where brandpositioning comes in?
(22:58):
Or do you view brandpositioning differently?
Greg Merrilees (23:01):
Differently, yeah.
So what we're trying to do hereis think about your audience.
If they're looking for asolution to a problem, which is,
you know, the definition of abusiness, you provide solutions,
then they're going to besearching in various places.
They'll look, you know, on theinternet, they'll look at LLMs,
they'll ask these questions, andthey'll find a whole range of
(23:22):
uh competitors to you.
So what brand position is allabout is how do you
differentiate from yourcompetitors, right?
So um, and it might you know bea range of things from the the
way you uh, it might be theamount of years you've been in a
business, it might be the wayyou do business, it might be the
offer, it might be um the thetype of clients you serve, the
(23:43):
social proof.
There's different ways that youcan dive deep into thinking
about how are you different fromyour competitors.
And then when you figure thatout, that needs to be part of
your marketing messaging acrossall of your marketing, right?
So, I mean, if we look at yourWeb Designer Pro, uh you've got
helping web designers, build,grow, and scale, lifestyle
website design business.
(24:04):
So, like that to me reallytalks to your audience.
Uh, you know, it's reallytalking to beginners and you
know, people that are sort ofmid-range, if anything, that
want to get off the toolspotentially.
I know some of your membersjust want to stay on the tools,
but if you're gonna build alifestyle business, essentially,
then you really need to grow ateam, you know, if you want to
(24:25):
grow, build, and scale.
Um, so that's part of you'reyou're getting who your target
audience is within yourmessaging.
But if you were to, and youprobably know who your
competitors are, if you were tocompare your messaging to their
messaging, uh, how similar isit?
And can you differentiate evenmore to attract your ideal
client?
Josh Hall (24:46):
Would you suggest?
And I'm happy to make this alive case study and get real
real-time coaching with youhere.
I know it'll benefit everybody.
Um, because one thing I hadthought about as as we start to
expand WebdesignerPro.com to amulti-page site and eventually
add some resources.
One thing I thought about doingwas a comparison blog about
(25:08):
different web design businesscoaches and how I'm different.
And pretty much all of them aremy friends, so I'm not gonna
trash them.
But I do want to be reallyclear, and it's funny you
mentioned Troy Dean earlier.
Like I often tell people,Troy's great, agency Mavericks
is great.
Web Designer Pro is not agencyMavericks.
Like, if you have a six-figureagency and you're all about PPC
(25:28):
and SEO, honestly, you're you'rebetter to go with them.
But if you're a you know afreedom-based web designer who
wants a small lean and meanteam, that's we're perfect for
you.
Perfect for getting folks to250K to 500K.
We're not really aseven-figure, I'm not a
seven-figure web designer coach.
So those are the kind of littlethings I had thought about
doing that.
(25:48):
So my question would be like ona home page or elsewhere, would
you recommend having a sectionthat just hits the the you know
the top highlights of that andthen move them to the blog post
for more kind of thing?
Greg Merrilees (26:02):
Absolutely.
So there's a website that we'vedesigned, which is Saks School
Online.
And if you check out their homeuh.com, if you check out their
homepage, they actually have asection that has a comparison
chart on there between them andcompetitor offers, right?
Um, if I just scroll down tothat section, what they have is
(26:23):
a cost comparison.
So they have if you were tojoin a music academy, it's like
42,000 a year, private lessons,you know, 2,600 a year, SAC
school $1.32 a day.
But then they have a comparisonchart for all of the things
that they offer versus a privatelesson.
Um, and so yeah, it's a bigdifference there.
But yes, for you, I would callout more, whether it's in a
(26:47):
comparison chart or whether itis just that point of difference
between you and Troy Dean'scommunity.
Uh, and you don't want to callhim out, of course, but um, you
know, really have a section todifferentiate, um, to talk about
exactly how you're different tothe other ones.
Josh Hall (27:04):
That's a great idea.
Well, what about what aboutlinking?
I guess it's maybe more of anSEO question, but what about
linking to them?
Um, because we're in a similarindustry from an SEO
perspective, I would probably beokay with that.
I guess probably don't want tolike send people elsewhere to
say, like, you know, oh, joinover here instead of me.
Of course, it depends.
But um, yeah, what about whatabout that idea about LVI?
(27:25):
Like getting really grandthere.
I mean, honestly, I've had themall on my podcast too.
So it could be like a good,like, uh, here's my interview
with Troy, you want to get toknow him, here it is.
And then that might be.
Greg Merrilees (27:35):
Yeah, you could that's what I was gonna say.
You're not scared to interviewyour competitors.
He's not a direct competitoranyway, but um, yeah, and
there's so many websitedesigners out there.
I've I don't think it's a greatidea, you know, link into his
website from your sales page orfrom your pro website, but
you're linking to him from yourpodcast, which is your personal
brand website, and I thinkthat's enough, you know, uh
(27:58):
personally.
But yeah, um that's what I'lldo.
Josh Hall (28:01):
I'll just link to the podcast episode.
And if they want to, yeah, thenthey could go from there.
That's a great idea.
That's a good idea.
Greg Merrilees (28:06):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I've got an AI interactiveauthor which has my entire book
uploaded to it.
And I'm just I've just loadedit up now and I've said, and
it's got a whole bunch ofparameters.
I said, can you review mywebsite?
And then it's just, yeah, whatis it?
Webdesignerpro.com, right?
I can share my screen if youwant me to know that's what it
is.
Josh Hall (28:26):
I know.
Oh, can we do this when the newversion goes out?
It's gonna shred me.
No problem.
While you're pulling that up,I'm gonna let my golden
retriever in.
She's like tomorrow.
Keep on going though.
Keep on going.
Alrighty.
So is this tool something thatyou have as proprietary?
Greg Merrilees (28:43):
No, it's like totally free.
It's uh it's a lead magnet foryeah, anybody.
Uh all right, chat GPT.
Tell me if you can see that.
Josh Hall (28:54):
Okay, yep.
Greg Merrilees (28:55):
Yeah.
So if anybody goes to my bookwebsite, next level website
design.com slash free, they'llget this tool, they'll get a
whole bunch of resources.
But yeah, this and a you know,a workbook for the book, uh,
various things.
But yeah, this is a tool whereyou just say, Can you review my
website?
And say, sure, what's the URL?
So I pop that in.
Um, blah, blah, blah.
(29:16):
And so it's just confirmingwhat you are.
Is that correct?
You just say yes.
Now it's going to go throughclarity of message, it's going
to go through.
We'll come back to this, butall these things, blah, blah,
blah.
It's like nine areas that arereally important.
So it's picked up um brandpositioning, your competitors,
Flux Academy, the future.
There we go.
We talked about him earlier.
(29:36):
Um, designership.
I don't know that one.
Okay.
So it's saying this is what'sunique about each of them,
right?
So uh Flux Academy, premium webdesign course, big focus on
design skills and freelancing.
Competitor two, the future,huge advantage community with uh
training uh or design brandingand business.
Uh, blah, blah, blah.
So it doesn't give a lot ofinfo, but um, it's saying how
(29:59):
you can differentiate.
Position Web Designer Pro as apractical mentor-led community
where freelance designersactually scale a business.
That's not bad, right?
So that's pretty good.
Yeah.
And so what we're gonna do isask this um what is the
difference between uh WebDesigner Pro and Agency
Maverick?
(30:19):
Uh let's have a look.
Yeah, even you to put the S inbecause I left it out.
Josh Hall (30:29):
This is where that blog post could help so much.
We've been talking a lot aboutAI search, so like getting
really detailed so these enginesknow.
Okay, here's the blog post onall the differences.
Greg Merrilees (30:39):
Yeah, exactly.
So, all right.
So it's given you what you'reall about, Josh Hall's
membership, all these things,right?
Um, and so then it's gonna sayagency mavericks, blah, blah,
blah, is all these things.
Now we're just okay, it's gotthe key differentiators.
How good is this?
Wow, look at this.
Josh Hall (30:56):
Oh, I'm using the F out of this, dude.
I'm gonna take this a block.
Greg Merrilees (30:59):
Exactly.
All right, so then yeah, youcan deep dive and you can you
can have a conversation with itand say, you know, what about
this angle?
And I I like this idea, butwhat about that?
And then it can help youformulate your USP and your you
know, a whole section todifferentiate.
Yeah.
What should my USP?
(31:19):
Sorry.
Josh Hall (31:21):
No, no, go ahead.
This is great.
I'll definitely make sure wehave the resources linked up in
the show notes for this one tooat the next level website
design.com.
So this was the uh I'll justask it this.
Greg Merrilees (31:34):
Um, hang on.
Because I've got uh speech on.
What would be a good headlinefor Web Designer Pro to
differentiate from agencyMavericks and all the other
competitors?
Josh Hall (31:50):
Nailed it, he's good.
He's already good.
Greg Merrilees (31:55):
Okay.
Okay, it's got some yeah, it'sgot some uh options.
Uh look, I would say brainstormwith it, and you'll yeah, yeah.
This is just obviously atwo-minute test, but yeah, brand
great subheading too.
Josh Hall (32:10):
Great subheading, and I may even use those for like
testimonial section headings.
Um yeah, yeah.
Greg Merrilees (32:18):
And put it into your market in, your you know,
your YouTube shorts, yourInstagram posts, etc.
Josh Hall (32:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, this is great, Greg.
Well, thanks so much, but thisis a fun little free audit,
dude.
This is awesome.
I can't wait to play aroundwith that.
So, was that one?
I'm looking at your freeresources.
Was that the AI interactiveauthor, the first one there?
Greg Merrilees (32:39):
Correct, yeah.
You get them all.
You just opt in to get allthose things, which uh, yeah,
there's a lot of really valuablestuff in there that your
community would love.
It's like a blueprint withthere's so many valuable things,
including full case studies,uh, you know, and mood boards
and and uh client interviews.
And yeah, there's like I thinkseven PDFs in there, a whole
(33:01):
range of things.
Josh Hall (33:02):
Heck yeah, man.
That'll be the main resource wewe get out on this one for
sure.
That's great.
And I I just I think it's it'simportant to have this idea.
I mean, it depends on how I howfar I guess a web designer is
going with creating copy.
And if they are doing that, ifit's SEO related.
But I mean, even if you're notquote unquote a copywriter as a
web designer, you're going to dosome copy.
(33:24):
So why not have this as theresource that you kick projects
off?
Clients would see this and belike, how much?
How much?
Let's let's get this going.
Greg Merrilees (33:35):
Yeah, it's a really valuable tool.
I use it all the time.
Every time I get a new client,uh new prospect, I'll ask this
tool to review their websitewith those nine points.
Uh, and then yeah, I willrecord a video and run through
sharing you know my screentalking about these points that
my AI came up with based on mybook.
So super helpful.
And then we get sales fromthat.
So any of your designers coulddo the same thing with this
(33:57):
tool.
Josh Hall (33:58):
So brand positioning is basically differentiation, if
we could distill it.
Is that fair?
Greg Merrilees (34:03):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And also not justdifferentiation from your
competitors, but think about uhmaking sure it aligns with your
offer and your price point,right?
So if your Mercedes Benz, youdon't want it to look like it's
come from, you know, it lookslike a Walmart looking design.
You know what I mean?
Like you've got to match thedesign with the price point.
(34:24):
Uh otherwise people will, youknow, won't expect it to be as
like let's say you've got ahigh-end brand.
Um, let's say look at look atyour Web Designer Pro versus
maybe one of your higher levelcompetitors.
I think your look and feel, thecolor palette, suits your
target audience, who you'retrying to attract, right?
But let's say if you're areally high tier coach, business
(34:45):
coach, and you charge $25,000 ayear like most of them do.
Um, if they don't have a reallyhigh high-end pro look in
design that looks really slick,professional photography, all
that stuff, then people won'tthink that they're as good as
they are just by looking attheir website.
So your website design can lookyou uh let you down if it
doesn't position you correctly.
Josh Hall (35:06):
Yeah, or vice versa, it can make you look awesome,
even if you're just gettinggoing.
Greg Merrilees (35:11):
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then if you do sell really,you know, low-end commodity
type products and your websitelooks too expensive, that people
think, oh, maybe this stuff'snot for me.
You know, I want cheap stuff.
Josh Hall (35:24):
What uh what what are your thoughts on I guess color
palette, but also just design ingeneral with that thought?
I guess what makes an elegantdesign when it comes to like
higher end whether it'scoaching, coaching, or yeah.
Greg Merrilees (35:40):
Yeah, yeah, high contrast, a lot of dark
background.
You don't want too much darkbackground though with white
text because it's quite hard toread.
It won't pass the ADAcompliance things and all that,
but uh I wouldn't worry aboutthat you know too much for a
smaller business.
But uh yeah, high contrast,dark background, even having
some luxury textures in there aswell, you know, in the
background, uh light in, justthings that make uh things look
(36:04):
uh look and feel premium.
If you look at any watchwebsite, they look premium, you
know.
If you go to Tag Hure or Rolex,like have a look at those
websites, they're just very highcontrast, dark backgrounds,
light backgrounds, um, like asin black and white, and then
they just let their product bethe hero with photography.
And yeah, it's really not muchcopy.
(36:25):
I mean, I don't like using it.
I understand copyright isextremely important, but um, if
you are if you have a warmaudience or a well-known brand
and that comes from good brandpositioning and marketing, then
less copy will still be totallyfine.
It's only when you're achallenger brand, like smaller
guys, like most of youraudience, then I wouldn't
simplify the copy too muchbecause you're missing out on
(36:48):
letting your prospects knowwhat's unique about you, how you
can solve their problem, andthe fact that you understand
their situation, their problemsas well.
If you just skim over all thatand don't include it because you
just want to showcase your coolfolio, um, yeah, people won't
know why they should choose youover your competitors and that
you have a solution for themspecifically.
Josh Hall (37:08):
What are some of your favorite personal conversion
tips and tricks?
Greg Merrilees (37:16):
Favorite, there's so many.
I honestly I think it juststarts with a good foundation.
Like there's no real you'vejust got to say, I could tell
money whenever you want, but I'mI'm kind of curious.
Josh Hall (37:27):
Yeah.
Greg Merrilees (37:28):
I would say copywriting, you can have the
biggest wins by tweaking yourcopywriting.
All right, like that's easierto create, you know, different
versions.
By the way, you don't have to AB split test uh at the same
time.
If you have low traffic, youcan split test over time.
So one week change a copy tothis, next week change it to
(37:48):
that, and just see what happenswith your conversions.
So yeah, you don't need fancytools, you can test over time.
But yeah, copywriting issurprising how you can get the
biggest wins just by making copytweaks.
So yeah, to me, that's whateverybody should be trying
first.
Josh Hall (38:05):
And now it'd be a mixture of headline, call to
actions, differentiators.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, kind of what you outlineand the and the author, the AI
author.
Greg Merrilees (38:16):
Yeah.
I would also say like if youhave uh any type of business
that is growing, you've probablycollected a lot of social
proof.
And whether that's in the formof written testimonials, video
testimonials, full case studies,etc.
And what we find is having adedicated page for all that on
our website, you know, peoplejust go to that page and go, oh
(38:38):
wow, okay, that's a lot ofsocial proof.
They may not read it all or orwatch all the videos, but when
you have hundreds of thesethings in one page, like sure,
you want to spread social proofover every page, but if you have
a dedicated page to socialproof, uh yeah, it can be super
powerful.
We got one client called pianoin21days.com.
He has this social proof pagethat has so much social proof,
(39:01):
he has to segment it into agegroup, into cities.
Like it's he's got literallythousands of social proof, you
know, in one page.
Josh Hall (39:10):
So what's super I'm using I'm using Sinja now for
for all my testimonials.
What's he using?
Greg Merrilees (39:17):
That's yeah, we've had clients have used
that.
I don't know what he's usingpersonally.
Um don't he we designed hiswebsite, but then he had
somebody else build it, so Idon't know what he uses.
But gotcha.
Yeah.
Josh Hall (39:28):
Well, you're just reaffirming.
I'm feeling good because you'rereaffirming reaffirming
everything I'm working on withthe do version of Webpresenter
Pro.com, which will be live bythe time this airs.
So excellent.
But the the social proof, whatI realize, and this is for
anyone, I think it's funnybecause with testimonials, they
tend to just creep in over time,especially if you're really
(39:49):
active on getting them.
And then depending on ifthey're per product or for a
whole brand in general, it'svery surprising how many you'll
have.
Like, I know my my business isdifferent than a service-based
web designer, but I lookedrecently and I'm like, I've got
over 300, almost three, over 350course testimonials.
And then I've got a hundredplus video testimonials that
(40:13):
talk about pro and are indifferent aspects of my coaching
or my or my community.
So we've actually we'recurrently working on loading all
those into Sinja.
And then they are dedicated toWeb Designer Pro as a whole, Web
Designer Pro courses, WebDesigner Pro community, and Web
Designer Pro Coaching.
And I'm really doing that sameapproach of like course
(40:34):
testimonials, communitytestimonials, coaching
testimonials.
Perfect.
Greg Merrilees (40:39):
Do you have any case?
Yeah, I would segment them allon one page, but um, do you have
any case studies from them,like a proper, you know,
full-length case study?
Yeah.
Josh Hall (40:50):
That is the next ones we're working on.
I'm gonna launch it with justthe main reviews page, and then
I'm gonna start to add fullstories, like full-on case
studies, yeah, with a probablystart off with half a dozen and
up to probably a dozen of my promembers who are like, you know,
they're like just such a goodstory.
This is the kind of person Iwant in this category.
Greg Merrilees (41:11):
Yeah, exactly.
And you've done case studypodcast episodes.
If you turn some of them intoactual one page per case study
where you talk about theirsituation before they came to
you, what their challenges andproblems were, and you know,
what their tool stack was andall these things.
And then when they joined Pro,they learned all these, they saw
a whole new world and all thesethings changed for them, and
(41:33):
you know, um, what yourinvolvement was, and you know,
et cetera.
And then what the results were,right?
Uh if you have nice visualswith all these things as well.
And with the results, it's youknow, they went from this to
that and blah, blah, blah.
And then you have some impactmetrics of what it meant to
their business, and then a nicetestimonial, whether that's in
written or video, like that is akiller case study page that you
(41:55):
would only need like three tosix of those type of pages and
potentially targeting slightlydifferent areas of your target
audience, and then add them toyour email marketing nurture
sequence, uh, do podcastepisodes on each one of them and
send people directly to thosecase study pages.
Obviously, the call to actionis to join membership, uh,
sorry, designer pro, right?
(42:16):
And so, yeah, that could be areally powerful strategy because
if you just do that wall oflove page, um, it can be
overwhelming.
They may not know what to focuson.
And if you had individual justone case study, a full story, it
can be, yeah, super powerful.
Josh Hall (42:32):
So, well, first of all, I'm gonna take that
transcript and use that as thethe outline for the case study
pages because I had three, Ihave three I'm working on right
now, but yeah, I just I wasgoing back and forth on like
what to what to ask, where toposition it, but what you laid
out right there before you join,after you join, results with
the visuals, testimonial, andthen some of those little finer
(42:56):
aspects in there.
That was that was gold.
So I'll use that as the prompt.
unknown (43:00):
Yeah.
Greg Merrilees (43:01):
If you pick from your best testimonials, let's
say a dozen, and if you sendthem an email, uh say, say, hey,
look, you know, I'm redesigningmy website.
I'd love to use you, one of myfavorite clients or customers,
whatever you call them, uh, orpro members, um, uh as a case
study on my website, and thenyou just ask those questions
that you you know, what was yoursituation like before you came
(43:22):
to us?
How did we help?
What were the results?
Um, that could be turned intothe case study.
And then you interview them onZoom or, you know, Riverside,
whatever you want to use.
Josh Hall (43:32):
Do you do a lot of those case studies?
Do you for folks who want to dothis with clients, even if it's
just on a smaller level withmaybe three, do you send a
client the list of questions sothey're prepared and then you go
into it, or do you try to keepit more loose and
conversational?
Greg Merrilees (43:48):
We we say, look, if if you want to do a written
testimonial or a video or jumpon a call and I interview you,
either way, use this format.
Leave it to them.
Josh Hall (43:59):
Gotcha.
Greg Merrilees (44:00):
Yeah.
Okay.
And then you see if you getenough information from it, and
then you can, you know, see ifnot, ask them if you can jump on
a call.
Like there's many ways tohandle it, but yeah, it has to
be around that um situation, youknow, challenge results because
or how you help, and thenresults, because that's what
(44:21):
people, you know, cold prospectswhen they see themselves in
that situation and they can see,oh wow, yeah, I can see myself,
and yeah, I had those sameproblems, and oh, I do have
those problems now.
I need to join this communitybecause wow, look at the results
he's got or she's got.
Josh Hall (44:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I what's kind of cool isfor for me and anyone who has a
lot of social proof already, Icould definitely create probably
a dozen full-on success storiesbased off of that framework
with the existing testimonialand then the podcast interview
if they want to go further.
I love it.
Yeah, that this gives me a lotof clarity.
(44:57):
Thanks for that, Greg.
I this feels a lot more clearto me on like, okay, I feel good
about just wrapping up becauseI I actually had Jap GPT, I took
the transcript and ran itthrough there for one of my
recent podcast interviews, butit just wasn't great.
And it was probably the prompt.
I had it make a case study, butit it left me confused reading
it.
So I want I wanted to make sureI avoided a confusing story uh
(45:21):
as a case study.
Greg Merrilees (45:22):
Got it.
Well, even use the theinteractive author of my book,
and yeah, it can you it couldtake whatever answers you get
from these people and turn itinto a more substantial case
study and get their approval, ofcourse.
But yeah, it'll, you know, theymay not give you exactly what
you want, so you can tweak it.
Josh Hall (45:41):
What are some hidden conversion tips that we haven't
hit on that maybe web designersaren't thinking of or maybe
they're missing?
We just I think we covered likethe the really the foundational
best conversion principlesthere for sure, with just the
the idea of clear headings, thecopy, call to actions between
(46:01):
hot medium and and kind of acold audience, differentiators.
Uh, we just went through alittle masterclass there of case
studies versus reviews andtestimonials.
What what's something else, oris there anything else that
yeah, we're missing?
Yeah.
Greg Merrilees (46:16):
Segmenting, I think, is super important, you
know, not just uh for yourdesigners to put on their
websites, but for when they'redesigning their clients'
websites, don't think of it as acatch-all.
Because let's say you'redesigning for a service
business, but they have various,we'll call them buckets, like
different buckets of targetaudiences.
You really want to segment themand have a landing page that
(46:37):
talks to each one of thosebuckets.
Or it might be a differentoffer, you know, it could be an
accountant that does bookkeepingaccounting, and I don't know,
maybe they have a membership orsomething else.
So they're totally differentoffers.
And so you really want to,yeah, segment first and then
have like not just a landingpage, but a whole funnel around
that from a lead magnet thatleads into that, you know, to
(46:58):
cater to cold and warm people.
Um, and then on the thank youpage, that's probably one of the
hidden missing things that mostdesigners miss, which is having
an amazing thank you page witha video face to camera that
says, you know, thank you forwhatever they've just done, but
then invites them into the nextstep of the funnel and explain
the benefits, fets of explainthe benefits of that next step,
(47:21):
etc.
And if it is, for instance, touh let's say if somebody's
booked a call with you, I liketo have FAQs in that thank you
page video that talks to theirobjections or frequently asked
questions that you hear on thosesales calls, because then when
people, A, they'll show up tothose sales calls and B, they'll
(47:41):
be more likely to convertbecause you've handled all the
objections in your thank youpage video.
Josh Hall (47:47):
So I want to be completely selfish and ask a Web
Designer Pro question here.
Um again, I know everything wecover is gonna are gonna help
folks as they're working ontheir lead generators and their
segments, but so my segments forWeb Designer Pro are builders.
I I call them builders,growers, and scalers.
Builders are folks who areearly on.
Um they may be brand they maybe brand new to web design or
(48:10):
they probably have started insome way and they're they're
they're one that gets serious,but they're essentially a
starter.
So I currently have a freestarter lead generator that's uh
like a one-hour training withall my tips on getting started.
And um, I'm gonna revamp thatfor the new version of Web
Desenter Pro.
So that'll be my lead generatorfor the builder.
I've got one for growers whohave a business that's cooking,
(48:31):
but they want to get to sixfigures, and then I have one for
scalers who are at a six-figurelevel, but they just they're
swamped, they need to grow asmall team but don't want to be
a big agency.
So I have my seg I have mysegments very clearly defined,
even more so in the new versionof the website.
I've got two of the three leadgenerators, and I'm gonna create
the third one and get thoserefined with with seek with
(48:52):
segments from or uh withsequences from the new case
studies that I create for sure,that are you know, a builder, a
grower, and a scaler.
My question is I when peoplecome to WebCenterPro.com, I
don't want to deter them fromjoining to go to the free stuff.
So my only apprehension when Isee your type of setup on Studio
(49:15):
One is do you think that wouldwork for me to have like free
resources big and boldsomewhere?
Greg Merrilees (49:21):
Or should I use the free resources as more
marketing and yeah, marketingexactly to drive yeah to drive
people from the podcast, youknow, to the free resources.
Yeah.
And I would also suggest justhave an exit pop, you know, like
only when they go to leave thewebsite, not an entry pop
because it's so damn annoying.
But when somebody goes to leavethe website and they haven't
(49:43):
taken action, they haven'tjoined, then why not offer them
something that's helpful andvaluable to them uh that's going
to give you a lead that you cannurture.
And then when they are ready,they'll you'll be top of mind.
Josh Hall (49:57):
Gotcha.
I like that idea for sure.
Yeah, because uh I I was alwaysa little bit leery about like
when somebody goes toWebCenterPro.com, I want them to
join.
They're likely already, I mean,I'm not really doing cold
outreach right now.
Maybe if I do cold outreach,that could change a little bit,
but that makes total sense.
I love that idea.
It feels like what about footerin the website?
At least have a link to freeresources in the footer.
(50:19):
That way, if they're downthere, they know it's there.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I love that idea of an exit.
Yeah, I love that idea of anexit pop up for sure.
Greg Merrilees (50:31):
Yeah, but also, like you said before, for your
marketing from certain blogposts or YouTube videos or
podcast episodes that might becompletely relevant to one of
the lead magnets, you want tosend them directly to that lead
magnet first.
And then on your thank youpage, you know, that's where you
offer pro and talk about thebenefits.
Got it.
Josh Hall (50:51):
Thank you, Page, with the pro offer.
Greg Merrilees (50:54):
And generally speaking, on that thank you
page, video um page, let's saythank you page, video at the
top, and then you just have arepeat of your landing page,
your home page in this case,underneath the video.
And just the video thanks them,explains the benefits, and just
say the next logical step isblah, blah, blah.
And you can even have a limitedtime offer, just specific for
(51:16):
people, you know, for a limitedtime for people that opted in,
or I don't know, it's up to youwhat you want to do there, but
it can entice people to takeaction.
Josh Hall (51:26):
Yeah, one um one of the best tips I got from Russell
Brunson with the Click theClickFunnels guy, is he talked
about there, it was all aboutthe confirmation page and the
thank you page where they gotfolks to opt into a free trial
and then it was paid after that.
I'm not I'm not down with afree trial for pro, but to make
(51:48):
a no-brainer offer is definitelywhat I'm working on.
Greg Merrilees (51:51):
Um yeah.
If you have a 90-day money-backguarantee, you'll we did that
with SAC school from 30 to 90,that boosted his conversions.
Josh Hall (52:00):
Oh, interesting.
Does he have tiers in SACschool?
Greg Merrilees (52:05):
No, he has courses all within.
Um, he sometimes leads peopleto a course first, but that all
leads into the membership.
Josh Hall (52:15):
Gotcha.
Okay.
Greg Merrilees (52:17):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (52:18):
Gotcha.
unknown (52:19):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (52:19):
I was just thinking I would I wouldn't do a guarantee
with coaching, but like forcourses for sure.
I'd be happy to do that.
Just it because I do find thatpeople just need to get a taste
of it, and they're like, okay,yeah.
Exactly.
And I think it's I think thesehigh conversion best principles
are even more important in theAI age, which I imagine is the
theme.
It's the theme of your book,How to Stand Out in the AI age,
(52:42):
but like trust, basically.
I I'm really, really leaninginto trust.
Greg Merrilees (52:47):
I love it.
Yeah, you're doing all theright things.
You've got your personal brandwebsite, you've got your
podcast, you you've got you knowthe pro membership, you've got
lead magnets, and everythingthat you do to get people in
there, to me, you've builtenough trust already.
So you're doing all the rightthings to build trust in your
brand.
Josh Hall (53:06):
You can always experience this.
Yeah, right.
You've probably experiencedthis with clients, but I've
realized I've so many people whojoin pro who say, I've been
listening to your podcast fortwo years or a year or two, I
finally joined.
And I'm like, what have I beendoing wrong that we had to wait
two years to join?
So that's what I'm working onis like moving from the two-year
(53:27):
window to like, you know, let'smake it to like the two-day or
two-month window.
Greg Merrilees (53:30):
Uh I wouldn't see that as what do you what am
I doing wrong?
I would see that as if youweren't doing anything, they
wouldn't know you exist.
So it's a long game.
Who cares if it's two years?
You know, your future self willthank you for the work you're
doing today.
Josh Hall (53:47):
True.
I guess I just feel bad forthem because it's like you can
make so much more money so muchfaster and get so much more
freedom so much faster.
That's what I like.
That it's like it's a shame.
It's a shame when I meetpeople.
And I get and I get some, youknow, sometimes there's a time
and a place where, like, yeah,you're just not at a good place
to dedicate to I get it totally.
But yeah, for some folks, yeah,I'm like, I mean, I've had pro
(54:10):
members tell me, I'm like,they're like, God, I wish I
would have done this, you know,years ago.
I would have I could have beenfull-time already, or I could
have been going to my kids'baseball games instead of
missing them.
So uh, that's a good point.
That could be a fun littlething I I might add in the AI
author for some urgency to helpwith some urgency on it without
being super sleazy in sales,which is not my style anyway,
(54:31):
but no, exactly.
Greg Merrilees (54:32):
But yeah, just talk about the the case studies
and you know how life could looka lot better.
Um, you know, why wait?
And then just talk about therisk reversal, which is that
whatever day guarantee 30, 60,90.
unknown (54:46):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (54:47):
Yeah, man.
Well, Greg, this has beenawesome, dude.
This was kind of half coachingsession for me, so I really
appreciate it.
I will I tell you what, I'mgonna I'm gonna give you I wanna
I'm gonna give you early accessto my new site once it's ready
if you uh if you're interested.
I'd love your I'd love your I'dlove your critique just to give
you some high-level pointers.
(55:08):
But um your book, man, nextlevel website design.
I told you before we went live.
Uh I regret to inform everyone,I haven't read it yet.
Uh it's on my list, but I havemy signed copy, so I'm really,
really fired, especially afterthis conversation.
I know this is all stuff that'sunpacked here, but uh, we got
the book, and then you got somekiller free resources.
(55:28):
So, yeah, where should everyonego next, man?
Greg Merrilees (55:31):
Yeah, thanks, man.
We've got the audio book comingout shortly, too.
I've actually had uh 11 Labs,which is uh an AI tool, uh clone
my voice, and it's incredible.
Like it's 10 hours of uh of me,and I've listened to it.
We've had to tweak it a littlebit, but it's pretty damn good.
So it's not on Audible justyet, it's on Apple Books, but
(55:52):
yeah, we're just it's gonna goon all the platforms.
We're just waiting for them toapprove it.
But yeah, so next level websitedesign.com forward slash free
if you want the free resources,or yeah, just.com if you want to
check out the book.
Josh Hall (56:05):
Heck yeah, man.
Well, Greg, again, dude, thankyou for your time.
Thank you for sharing yourexpertise.
Uh, let's get you stateside soyou can be a speaker at one of
our upcoming WDP con events,man.
Greg Merrilees (56:16):
Sounds awesome, man.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that offer.
Yeah.
Keep me uh couple years.
Josh Hall (56:23):
I'm hoping to do one uh overseas.
So if we can get down toAustralia, we have some we have
some Aussie members, so if wecan get down to Australia, we'll
do one down there.
Greg Merrilees (56:31):
That'd be cool.
Yeah, that'd be super cool.
Yeah, come to Melbourne.
It's where it's a city whereit's all happening.
Terrible government, but greatcity, very cultural.
Josh Hall (56:40):
I'm a tennis guy, so I I've always wanted it's been
on my bucket list to go to thetennis program down there.
Greg Merrilees (56:44):
So you are a tennis guy, yeah.
Yeah, it's uh incredible herewhen when the tennis is on, it's
very popular.
Josh Hall (56:51):
Oh, heck yeah.
I'm in.
Well, Greg, thanks, man.
A blast as always.
Till the next time.
Greg Merrilees (56:56):
You bet.
Thank you, Josh.
Take care.
Josh Hall (56:59):
All right, my friend.
Again, I hope you enjoyed thisone.
So much to learn from Greg.
I feel like we this was a bitof a masterclass here, and we
still just scratched thesurface.
So if you want to go furtherinto proven principles on
website conversion, check outGreg's book, Next Level Website
Design.
That will be linked over at theshow notes for this one at
joshhall.co slash 405.
(57:21):
And as we talked about, I wouldhighly recommend that you check
out Greg's Studio, Studio OneDesign.
His website is studio thenumber one design.com.
Um, if you want some infobecause he knows what the heck
he's talking about.
He is the expert on websiteconversion, so I can't wait to
hear how this one helps.
Make sure to send Greg a note,let him know you heard him on
(57:43):
the podcast, connect with himon.
I think he's active on prettymuch every social media
platform.
So let him know you heard himhere.
Maybe share a win or a takeawayfrom this conversation.
I know he'd love to hear fromyou.
And a big thanks to Greg forpulling the curtain back on
website conversions on what'sworking for their agency.
And I'm excited to hear how ithelps you, my friend.
Go to joshall.co slash 405 forall the links on this one.
(58:03):
Cheers.
Always think of it like a verb, right?
It has to be an action that youwant them to do.
So, you know, have the word getor download or book, you know,
a book or call, etc.
Like make sure there's a verbin there.
And the other tip as well forbutton copy, and we know from
split testing, uh, if you putthe word your, like download
(00:21):
your free report or whateververse, download my free report,
the word my converts better thanyour because it's the first
person that's downloaded.
They want their free report.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to the web design business podcast with
your host, Josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
Josh Hall (00:45):
Hello, hello, my friend.
It's great to have you here.
Is there ever a better time totalk about website conversion
than Black Friday and theholidays?
I think, well, I was gonna sayI think not.
I actually think it's importantto always think about website
conversions.
And that's what we're gonna doin this one.
And I can't think of a betterguest to dive deep into this
(01:06):
topic because we are gonna getnerdy and subsequently more
profitable in this one with theexpert on website conversion,
the guy who just recently wrotethe book on the subject.
This is Greg Merrilles, he's arepeat guest on the show.
His agency Studio One Design isone that I feature in several
of my courses.
I truly look up to him as likethe conversion expert.
(01:28):
He just wrote the book on it,which is called Next Level
Website Design (01:32):
How to Stand Out in an AI Era and Convert Your
Visitors into Sales 24-7.
So that's what we're gettinginto with this one.
Make sure to check out the shownotes for all the links that we
mentioned.
We do cover a few additionalresources that will be found in
the show notes for this one,which can be found at
joshhall.co slash 405.
And again, I really recommendthat you check out Greg's book,
(01:55):
Next Level Website Design.
Remember that everything youapply to your site, you can
apply to client sites, and thatwill make you way more valuable
and you can charge a lot more.
So let's help you do all thatmore by talking website
conversion with the man, GregMerrilles.
Well, Greg, it's great to greatto have you back on the show,
(02:19):
man.
Author now of uh next levelwebsite design.
I have my signed copy righthere.
So really, really appreciatethat, man.
Anytime I get a package fromAustralia, it just feels super
cool.
So thanks, man.
Greg Merrilees (02:33):
Excellent.
You're very welcome.
Yeah.
But uh, yeah, you've beenyou've been a part of my journey
as well.
You we've both been in the samecoaching community.
Uh, and now you've got your owncommunity.
And yeah, I've been watchingwhat you've do, what you've
done, and I've listened to yourpodcast ever since you
interviewed me initially.
I think you've got a greatpodcast.
You have great guests, and youdo great case studies with your
(02:54):
members.
So yeah, it's really supervaluable, even for me.
Josh Hall (02:58):
Well, thank you, man.
That's an honor to hear.
It it is pretty cool.
I'm glad that you said thatjust because I've been doing it
for six years now, coming up onsix years.
And I feel 400 episodes nearly.
Yeah, I think you'll you'll be400 plus.
Yeah.
Oh wow.
Yeah, there you go.
So what's interesting though isI take for granted the the
(03:20):
variety that we get on the show.
Like we have, you know, likeyou mentioned, some case studies
with members of my communitywho may be in the first year of
their business, but they'regetting wins, and folks like
yourself who have been in theindustry for years and are at
the the you know, the the top ofthe echelon of like folks to
learn from.
So I wouldn't say that isreally Chris.
You had Chris Doe on, he's atthe top.
(03:40):
Yeah, Chris Doe, AmyPorterfield, Mike Mikalowitz.
But what what is Troy Dame?
Yeah, James was James Schramp,goes on a couple years ago.
I mean, it is kind of cool thatwe're we all learn from each
other.
And I think you tell me, like,isn't it kind of cool to hear
some of the folks who aregetting started now and to see
(04:01):
what their first couple yearsare like versus you know when
you got started?
Greg Merrilees (04:05):
It's so different, man.
Uh honestly, I've been in thisgame forever, like been in
graphic design forever.
I switched to website designsin 2012, 2013.
But before that, uh, you know,I've I'm pretty old, you know.
So when when I first startedgraphic design, we used to have
dark room, a dark room in thegraphics department, right?
(04:26):
And in there we had this bigDanagraph uh camera, which we
used to enlarge bromides.
You know, so we're talking verylike 25, 30 years ago.
Yeah.
Josh Hall (04:38):
Well, let's just dive in because I mean, I here's
here's what I want to start offwith here.
Why write a book on websiteconversion now?
Because when I was justthinking about you know what
things were like 20, 25 yearsago, I don't know if there was
the terminology of websiteconversion and maybe even
design.
I don't know.
I don't know what it lookedlike.
But why do you feel like now isa time to uh, for lack of a
(05:01):
better term, double-click intowebsite conversion?
Greg Merrilees (05:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's a few reasons,but say initially I'm a learner,
right?
I love learning.
And so that's why I listen toso many podcasts and read books
and watch, you know, YouTubevideos and all that sort of good
stuff.
And I would say having thatmindset of always trying to
learn, um, you do that when youcreate content as well.
You research.
And so then I realized after,you know, probably eight years
(05:29):
of doing research and writingcontent and getting interviewed
and learning from all theseexperts, that it's time to put,
I had so much knowledge, it wasjust time, it was just time.
It didn't matter that the AI iscoming or you're in this type
of era or whatever.
The point is that uh it wasready for me to, you know, share
my knowledge essentially.
And uh also, you know, thebiggest problem is for business
(05:50):
owners, and I know most of youraudience are designers, but they
design for business owners.
And, you know, a lot of theproblem is that these website
designers use all these fancyanimation effects and parallax
and all these thingsinteracting, things flying all
over the page as you scroll.
But unfortunately, those thingsdon't convert, right?
And we do a lot of splittesting with our conversion
(06:12):
optimization service.
And so realistically, I justwant to show people with this
book that it's not about thefancy effects, it's about
trusted principles that work,you know, decade after decade.
Even if AI comes in, you canstill use AI if you understand
these principles to use a AI toget you a better result with
your website and copy.
Josh Hall (06:33):
Are the principles that worked 20, 25 years ago?
I know you were in web then perse, but just based off of your
knowledge and design, would yousay all those principles still
hold true today, large part?
Greg Merrilees (06:47):
Yeah, 100%.
Like, because it's more aboutpsychological drivers.
And um, there's one book, Don'tMake Me Think, by Steve Krug,
which is a very old book.
It's probably 15 years old, andit's exactly talking about, you
know, why people buy and youknow the uh the elements on the
page, the way they're visuallyorganized to attract people, you
(07:09):
know, their eye tracking to theto the right part of the page.
But it goes so much deeper thanthat.
But yeah, so the point is theseprinciples have been around for
a while, but that's just partof it.
And then learning from RobertCialdini and his book Influence,
he has other books too, but youknow, those principles are
timeless, and they're principleson how to persuade people to
take action in life, not just onyour website.
(07:31):
But we use those principles onwebsite design.
So yeah, it goes deeper thanjust design principles.
It's more about the psychology,copywriting frameworks, uh,
pretty much anything that'sgoing to persuade people to take
action on your website.
Josh Hall (07:45):
I'll make sure we link both of those books up.
And what I think this is great.
And I'm actually glad that werecorded an episode a while back
that kind of unpacks your storyand how you build your agency.
Uh, that was episode 330 foranyone who wants to go back and
hear about kind of your journeyand building your agency up and
serving so many clients andscaling.
(08:06):
Because I would imagine, andit's funny because even before
we connected, I I featured yoursite in a lot of my courses as
like a great example ofconversion-based design.
I would imagine a cornerstoneto your agency growth and
sustainability is justconversion design, right?
I mean, that's what I know youas.
(08:26):
That's I imagine that's likethe the key to your guys'
success.
Greg Merrilees (08:31):
Exactly.
So, and you'll notice that ifyou had a screenshot of our
website in your course maybe twoyears ago, it's gonna look a
lot different today.
It's probably gonna lookdifferent next week and the week
after and next month becausewe're constantly A B testing and
iterating.
And that is the key to a highconverting website.
So, sure, start with all theprinciples and all of the you
(08:54):
know design uh elements andbrand positioning, which is a
huge thing we can talk aboutbrand positioning.
Uh, but then you know, afterthat, it comes down to your
website is never finished.
So you've got to constantlyiterate, you've got to look at
all of the users on your websitethrough heat maps, through
videos, uh, through all of youranalytics of pathways that
(09:15):
they're taking from page topage, and then hypothesize,
which is really just a fancyword saying, you know, figure
out what you can try next tocapitalize more of those uh
users to turn them into aconversion.
And conversion could be just aclick to get to another page,
could be to book a call, to buysomething, download a lead
magnet, start a free trial, etc.
(09:35):
It's really just making sureyou want to increase that uh
conversion rate overall on everyevery page of your website.
Josh Hall (09:43):
Let's drill in real quick, because I would love to
talk about brand positioning,but real quick, do you think
there should just be one call toaction throughout a site?
Especially uh like what areyour thoughts on that?
Because I have mixed feelings,of course it may depend, but I
have seen and learned that ifyou tell P, if you have, for
example, contact us, let's talk,get started, schedule a call
(10:07):
and buy now on a homepage,that's five different call to
actions.
Confusion is a great way tolose business.
Like I've just really more andmore felt very, very uh secure
in telling my students one callto action.
What are you what are yourthoughts on that?
Greg Merrilees (10:23):
Yeah.
So again, there's differenttypes of use cases, right?
So let's say if it is amembership website, like your
Web Designer Pro, then youreally just want one call to
action, which would be to jointhe membership, right?
Because you could probablyimagine that everybody that's on
that page have heard of youthrough your podcast or through
other means, maybe YouTube,maybe you know, other members.
(10:44):
And so they're relatively warm.
I wouldn't say they'recompletely cold.
And so it does depend on howcold, warm, or hot your visitors
are, right?
And so for you, if they don'tjoin, then I would have an exit
pop that is offering somethingof value uh in return for an
email address that might justbe, you know, a lead magnet of
some sort.
These days we're using AI tocreate a lot of interactive lead
(11:06):
magnets as opposed to PDFs.
They're both, you know,effective, but people want
results instantly.
But if you're talking for ahome page of uh a service
business or a you know abusiness coach or it could be an
e-commerce, it could be anytype of business where you have
cold, warm, and hot traffic,then you need to cater to their
(11:27):
intent and you don't know whattheir intent is.
And so therefore, if it's ahomepage like my homepage, for
instance, we've got uh in thetop nav, we've got a sticky uh
call to action, which is for thefree resources.
So that's for cold leads,right?
Um, and then we have we knowfrom heat tracking the main
thing people want to see on aweb designer's business uh
website is their folio.
(11:48):
So that's our main call toaction.
And then underneath that, wehave different pathways based on
their specific needs, uh, youknow, which could be for them to
uh look at our branding, lookat our website design.
And if they do click on our webdesign service, there is uh a
pop-up that will segment theminto the type of business that
they are, from a personal brandto a service, business to
(12:09):
e-commerce, etc.
And so you really want to tryand cater to Cold Woman Hot, but
then segment them based ontheir uh unique situation.
So yeah, I would say sure.
Um if your traffic's warm, youcan have one call to action.
But if you're excuse me, ifyou're catering to Cold Woman
Hot, you need multiple.
Josh Hall (12:28):
Gotcha.
Okay, that's good.
That's good.
Good to be on that then.
And maybe that is because I'm II am typically helping web
designers who have a warmaudience.
It's rare, like I'm not I'm nothelping people with PPC or cold
traffic or marketing strategiesthat are generally at scale.
It's it's typically likereferral groups, somebody hears
(12:49):
about you, or they, you know,met a networking group, they go
to your website, it's like thefinal conversion piece.
So that makes total sense thatthere should be a strategy in
place for cold, kind of mediumand hot there.
Um I am curious with yourwebsite, and as you mentioned,
you know, this may change evenby the time this goes live, but
um how I'm trying to rememberwhat this looked like when I
(13:11):
featured it, particularly in mydesign course.
I thought your main call toaction was to either like get
started or something, orsomething like that.
Why um I guess one question iswhy free resources and view
portfolio.
So I guess that would probablyget two, that'd get a cold
audience and kind of a mediumaudience.
Greg Merrilees (13:32):
But also the top nav is sticky site-wide top
nav, right?
For the entire website.
Uh apart from the sales pages,we don't have the same top nav.
We have an individualnavigation for that particular
sales page that when pressed,anything in that top nav will
anchor link down the page.
Uh, but basically, yeah, it'sbecause if they're on the blog
(13:54):
or if they're on, you know, anyother type of page on our
website, we want them to seethat free resource.
Okay.
Because they may not, they maynot be ready to buy yet.
But yeah, so sure, it's on thehome page.
But like I said before, themain thing they want to do is
click on the the folio and checkout our folio.
So that's why we have that asthe main call to action in the
main banner.
Josh Hall (14:13):
Gotcha.
But I just checked it out.
And your service, your salespages have get a quote as the
main call to action.
Greg Merrilees (14:20):
Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah.
So well, it does.
There's various button copy.
It's all leading to the samething, which is a form, which
will then lead to book a call.
However, uh, the button copythroughout the page, we're
testing various words in.
Um, so it might say get a quoteon one button, and then it
might say, you know, uh, I wanta high converting website.
Like there's all various uhyeah, quote uh button copy
(14:43):
within that single page, but itall leads to the same thing.
But you'll notice on thosesales pages, there's no top nav
at all until you startscrolling.
Josh Hall (14:55):
Gotcha.
So somebody could zip rightthere and then without even
scrolling, boom, move forward.
Greg Merrilees (15:01):
Well, the point is when somebody's on your home
page, you want to show them thetop nav, all the things that you
offer, essentially, right?
But then when they go to anindividual sales page, you don't
want them to go off to anyother leakage points, which are
other pages on your website.
If they're on a sales page, youwant them to do that one thing.
So we don't have a top nav atall.
Until they start scrolling,then a top nav will appear, but
(15:23):
it just anchor links down toeach section uh of the page,
each relevant section of thepage.
Josh Hall (15:30):
Gotcha.
Let's dive into buttons.
You mentioned the buttons,you're trying some different
wording.
What about what are you seeingworking well for your clients?
Is it is this industry specificwith how creative and fun you
can get?
Because I've seen so manydifferent call-to-action buttons
that are like, yes, I want thisnow, or it's just plain join
now, or get me in, whatever itis.
(15:51):
Like, yeah, what are yourthoughts on the actual permit
for buttons?
Greg Merrilees (15:54):
I would say test, you know, like because
every every business isdifferent, every audience is
different.
So it's a good idea to you knowrepresent your brand with a
button copy, but always think ofit like a verb, right?
It has to be an action that youwant them to do.
So, you know, have the word getor download or book, you know,
a book or call, etc.
(16:15):
Like make sure there's a verbin there.
And the other tip as well forbutton copy, and we know from
split testing, uh, if you putthe word your, like download
your free report or whateververse, download my free report,
the word my converts better thanyour because it's the first
person that's downloaded, theywant their free report.
Josh Hall (16:36):
Gotcha.
That's really cool.
Well, I see that's what's sogreat about kind of your
high-level view on this, too,your bull, your bird's eye view,
just because I know you're sointo A B testing and research.
And I imagine that's great forclients too, because you could
be like, hey, we tried this outon this client, and just by
switching the your to my, you wecould roll this out.
Greg Merrilees (16:56):
Yeah, we do that a lot like yeah.
Sorry to cut you off.
Um, yeah, I'm just thinkingthere's one thing in particular
that a lot of designers miss.
So designers listening, uh payattention to this one.
So if you think about thehamburger menu on mobile for
most websites, most people justdo exactly the same what's in
their top navigation, right?
(17:18):
Um, and they'll just list itdown the page.
However, that we've we've doneyou know dozens of tests on
various websites from e-commerceto service businesses.
And what we've discovered isthat in mobile menu, uh, you
know, from the hamburgerdrop-down, we can generally uh
see which ones are gettingclicked on the most.
And so therefore, we'll reorderthose.
(17:40):
And it's usually different towhat's on the top nav of a
desktop.
Not only do we reorder them,but we put social proof in
there.
We put images for services, wehave sliders that go across the
page.
Kind of think of it like an appin an app store where you'll
see two and a half squares, andthe half indicates that there's
more than and you can scrollacross.
So we do that with our um uh,you know, navigation in in
(18:03):
drop-down menus, and the resultsare incredible.
Like it's almost like a mini uhyou know sales page in a very
short format, and it's reallyjust all above the fold on a
mobile screen.
But yeah, the results areincredible.
Uh, you'll get way betterresults if you put a lot of
effort into thinking about thatuh mobile menu.
Josh Hall (18:21):
Would you recommend on mobile, especially for sites
who may have quite a few pages,or even if it's five to ten
pages?
Like, I don't know on mobile iffolks are gonna research the
same way they would on desktop.
May depend on the industry, ofcourse.
But do you recommend basicallya condensed version of the site
on mobile?
Greg Merrilees (18:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So think about you know,according to things would be
collapsed, not expanded.
Uh, you can still have the sameamount of information, but just
presents it in a different way.
But yeah, I would sayabsolutely.
Obviously, you need to optimizeall of the images, recode them,
you know, re-upload them as aweb P that's at the actual size,
not just a large image that'sreduced down in size.
(19:01):
Uh, but yeah, in general, youwant to simplify it because,
yeah, and especially if peopleare coming to your website from
paid traffic, um, they're notgoing to give you much time.
So you just they're gonna stopat headlines, they're not gonna
read a lot.
So it just needs to give themexactly what they need and then
have the right pathway based ontheir intent.
Josh Hall (19:21):
Before we move into brand positioning, I want to ask
you this, Greg.
And I want to say I will not beoffended if you don't agree
with this.
If you feel like you need toshred it, just hit me.
But I have I've I've I've trieda few different and toiled
around with this, but I'velanded on using Become a Pro for
my main call to action on WebDesigner Pro.
(19:42):
This is a super timelyconversation because actually,
for the past two weeks, I'vebeen building out the new
version of WebdesignerPro.com.
Right now it's just one biglanding page.
The next version are going tobe segmented pages for courses,
community coaching, and expandson a few other areas and a
separate page for me as abusiness coach for SEO.
So I'm wondering, yeah, likeshould become a pro be the main
(20:05):
call to action still, or do youfeel like uh yeah, what are your
thoughts on that?
Or would just join now and doit?
Greg Merrilees (20:12):
Yeah, I mean, it has it has a uh a verb in it,
become, right?
So that's a good thing.
Um, and look, I would say itthe the word in pro ties in with
your brand.
And that's what you're takingpeople from just a web designer
to a web designer pro.
So it ties in with your mainmessaging.
I don't have a problem with it.
If you're concerned about it,potentially split test it
(20:34):
against something else, join nowor join membership.
Uh, join membership has moreclarity.
And, you know, I guess if itsays become a pro, there's not
as much clarity.
But if you read the headlinebefore it and the subheadline,
it's pretty clear on what'sgoing to happen if they if they
press that button.
Josh Hall (20:51):
Well, you definitely encourage me to once I roll out
these pages with particularlybecause my have I have a tiered
community now, particularly withthe course pages, the community
pages, and then the coachingpage, to probably have the main
call to action be separate onthose, have one join courses,
join community, join coaching orsomething like that.
(21:11):
Yeah.
Again, I'm gonna take anotherbook out of the Studio One
Design website books.
Greg Merrilees (21:16):
So excellent.
Yeah, and like I keep saying,like you've got to test these
things because we're onlyguessing.
And you know, everything thatyou have on this page is best
practice.
You have a ton of social proof,you have benefits, you let
people know what they canexpect.
And I think it's got all theelements, right?
But um, if you were to splittest this and change the call to
(21:38):
action button or change uh somesections around, just try
moving some sections up or downthe page, you might find just
doing little things like thatcould tweak your uh conversions
by it might be another 10%,which is huge.
Josh Hall (21:52):
What are you using to do split testing um and then
and measuring as well?
Are you using like MicrosoftClarity or anything or a
different heat map tool?
Greg Merrilees (22:01):
Yeah, love that.
If anybody has not heard ofMicrosoft Clarity, get it, put
it on your website, it's totallyfree, it's forever free, and
that has heat maps and you know,user videos of everybody that's
on your website.
And they have AI built into itas well to summarize pages
because it can be time consumingand overwhelming to you know
study the user behavior.
So that's one tool.
(22:21):
But then for split testing,Visual Website Optimizer is a
great tool for that.
Um, there's plenty of othertools as well, but that's one
that we've you know sort ofleaned on the most lately.
Uh, there's some WordPressplugins that are half decent as
well.
Um, but yeah, that's one thatwe use for split testing.
Josh Hall (22:37):
Gotcha.
And I am a Divi guy.
I'm pretty sure I haven't usedit, but I think Divi has an A-B
split tester, pretty sure.
Um now I imagine beforefiguring out your call to action
or call to actions, it'sprobably all about how you're
positioned.
So when it comes to like cold,medium, or hot audiences, is
that kind of where brandpositioning comes in?
(22:58):
Or do you view brandpositioning differently?
Greg Merrilees (23:01):
Differently, yeah.
So what we're trying to do hereis think about your audience.
If they're looking for asolution to a problem, which is,
you know, the definition of abusiness, you provide solutions,
then they're going to besearching in various places.
They'll look, you know, on theinternet, they'll look at LLMs,
they'll ask these questions, andthey'll find a whole range of
(23:22):
uh competitors to you.
So what brand position is allabout is how do you
differentiate from yourcompetitors, right?
So um, and it might you know bea range of things from the the
way you uh, it might be theamount of years you've been in a
business, it might be the wayyou do business, it might be the
offer, it might be um the thetype of clients you serve, the
(23:43):
social proof.
There's different ways that youcan dive deep into thinking
about how are you different fromyour competitors.
And then when you figure thatout, that needs to be part of
your marketing messaging acrossall of your marketing, right?
So, I mean, if we look at yourWeb Designer Pro, uh you've got
helping web designers, build,grow, and scale, lifestyle
website design business.
(24:04):
So, like that to me reallytalks to your audience.
Uh, you know, it's reallytalking to beginners and you
know, people that are sort ofmid-range, if anything, that
want to get off the toolspotentially.
I know some of your membersjust want to stay on the tools,
but if you're gonna build alifestyle business, essentially,
then you really need to grow ateam, you know, if you want to
(24:25):
grow, build, and scale.
Um, so that's part of you'reyou're getting who your target
audience is within yourmessaging.
But if you were to, and youprobably know who your
competitors are, if you were tocompare your messaging to their
messaging, uh, how similar isit?
And can you differentiate evenmore to attract your ideal
client?
Josh Hall (24:46):
Would you suggest?
And I'm happy to make this alive case study and get real
real-time coaching with youhere.
I know it'll benefit everybody.
Um, because one thing I hadthought about as as we start to
expand WebdesignerPro.com to amulti-page site and eventually
add some resources.
One thing I thought about doingwas a comparison blog about
(25:08):
different web design businesscoaches and how I'm different.
And pretty much all of them aremy friends, so I'm not gonna
trash them.
But I do want to be reallyclear, and it's funny you
mentioned Troy Dean earlier.
Like I often tell people,Troy's great, agency Mavericks
is great.
Web Designer Pro is not agencyMavericks.
Like, if you have a six-figureagency and you're all about PPC
(25:28):
and SEO, honestly, you're you'rebetter to go with them.
But if you're a you know afreedom-based web designer who
wants a small lean and meanteam, that's we're perfect for
you.
Perfect for getting folks to250K to 500K.
We're not really aseven-figure, I'm not a
seven-figure web designer coach.
So those are the kind of littlethings I had thought about
doing that.
(25:48):
So my question would be like ona home page or elsewhere, would
you recommend having a sectionthat just hits the the you know
the top highlights of that andthen move them to the blog post
for more kind of thing?
Greg Merrilees (26:02):
Absolutely.
So there's a website that we'vedesigned, which is Saks School
Online.
And if you check out their homeuh.com, if you check out their
homepage, they actually have asection that has a comparison
chart on there between them andcompetitor offers, right?
Um, if I just scroll down tothat section, what they have is
(26:23):
a cost comparison.
So they have if you were tojoin a music academy, it's like
42,000 a year, private lessons,you know, 2,600 a year, SAC
school $1.32 a day.
But then they have a comparisonchart for all of the things
that they offer versus a privatelesson.
Um, and so yeah, it's a bigdifference there.
But yes, for you, I would callout more, whether it's in a
(26:47):
comparison chart or whether itis just that point of difference
between you and Troy Dean'scommunity.
Uh, and you don't want to callhim out, of course, but um, you
know, really have a section todifferentiate, um, to talk about
exactly how you're different tothe other ones.
Josh Hall (27:04):
That's a great idea.
Well, what about what aboutlinking?
I guess it's maybe more of anSEO question, but what about
linking to them?
Um, because we're in a similarindustry from an SEO
perspective, I would probably beokay with that.
I guess probably don't want tolike send people elsewhere to
say, like, you know, oh, joinover here instead of me.
Of course, it depends.
But um, yeah, what about whatabout that idea about LVI?
(27:25):
Like getting really grandthere.
I mean, honestly, I've had themall on my podcast too.
So it could be like a good,like, uh, here's my interview
with Troy, you want to get toknow him, here it is.
And then that might be.
Greg Merrilees (27:35):
Yeah, you could that's what I was gonna say.
You're not scared to interviewyour competitors.
He's not a direct competitoranyway, but um, yeah, and
there's so many websitedesigners out there.
I've I don't think it's a greatidea, you know, link into his
website from your sales page orfrom your pro website, but
you're linking to him from yourpodcast, which is your personal
brand website, and I thinkthat's enough, you know, uh
(27:58):
personally.
But yeah, um that's what I'lldo.
Josh Hall (28:01):
I'll just link to the podcast episode.
And if they want to, yeah, thenthey could go from there.
That's a great idea.
That's a good idea.
Greg Merrilees (28:06):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I've got an AI interactiveauthor which has my entire book
uploaded to it.
And I'm just I've just loadedit up now and I've said, and
it's got a whole bunch ofparameters.
I said, can you review mywebsite?
And then it's just, yeah, whatis it?
Webdesignerpro.com, right?
I can share my screen if youwant me to know that's what it
is.
Josh Hall (28:26):
I know.
Oh, can we do this when the newversion goes out?
It's gonna shred me.
No problem.
While you're pulling that up,I'm gonna let my golden
retriever in.
She's like tomorrow.
Keep on going though.
Keep on going.
Alrighty.
So is this tool something thatyou have as proprietary?
Greg Merrilees (28:43):
No, it's like totally free.
It's uh it's a lead magnet foryeah, anybody.
Uh all right, chat GPT.
Tell me if you can see that.
Josh Hall (28:54):
Okay, yep.
Greg Merrilees (28:55):
Yeah.
So if anybody goes to my bookwebsite, next level website
design.com slash free, they'llget this tool, they'll get a
whole bunch of resources.
But yeah, this and a you know,a workbook for the book, uh,
various things.
But yeah, this is a tool whereyou just say, Can you review my
website?
And say, sure, what's the URL?
So I pop that in.
Um, blah, blah, blah.
(29:16):
And so it's just confirmingwhat you are.
Is that correct?
You just say yes.
Now it's going to go throughclarity of message, it's going
to go through.
We'll come back to this, butall these things, blah, blah,
blah.
It's like nine areas that arereally important.
So it's picked up um brandpositioning, your competitors,
Flux Academy, the future.
There we go.
We talked about him earlier.
(29:36):
Um, designership.
I don't know that one.
Okay.
So it's saying this is what'sunique about each of them,
right?
So uh Flux Academy, premium webdesign course, big focus on
design skills and freelancing.
Competitor two, the future,huge advantage community with uh
training uh or design brandingand business.
Uh, blah, blah, blah.
So it doesn't give a lot ofinfo, but um, it's saying how
(29:59):
you can differentiate.
Position Web Designer Pro as apractical mentor-led community
where freelance designersactually scale a business.
That's not bad, right?
So that's pretty good.
Yeah.
And so what we're gonna do isask this um what is the
difference between uh WebDesigner Pro and Agency
Maverick?
(30:19):
Uh let's have a look.
Yeah, even you to put the S inbecause I left it out.
Josh Hall (30:29):
This is where that blog post could help so much.
We've been talking a lot aboutAI search, so like getting
really detailed so these enginesknow.
Okay, here's the blog post onall the differences.
Greg Merrilees (30:39):
Yeah, exactly.
So, all right.
So it's given you what you'reall about, Josh Hall's
membership, all these things,right?
Um, and so then it's gonna sayagency mavericks, blah, blah,
blah, is all these things.
Now we're just okay, it's gotthe key differentiators.
How good is this?
Wow, look at this.
Josh Hall (30:56):
Oh, I'm using the F out of this, dude.
I'm gonna take this a block.
Greg Merrilees (30:59):
Exactly.
All right, so then yeah, youcan deep dive and you can you
can have a conversation with itand say, you know, what about
this angle?
And I I like this idea, butwhat about that?
And then it can help youformulate your USP and your you
know, a whole section todifferentiate.
Yeah.
What should my USP?
(31:19):
Sorry.
Josh Hall (31:21):
No, no, go ahead.
This is great.
I'll definitely make sure wehave the resources linked up in
the show notes for this one tooat the next level website
design.com.
So this was the uh I'll justask it this.
Greg Merrilees (31:34):
Um, hang on.
Because I've got uh speech on.
What would be a good headlinefor Web Designer Pro to
differentiate from agencyMavericks and all the other
competitors?
Josh Hall (31:50):
Nailed it, he's good.
He's already good.
Greg Merrilees (31:55):
Okay.
Okay, it's got some yeah, it'sgot some uh options.
Uh look, I would say brainstormwith it, and you'll yeah, yeah.
This is just obviously atwo-minute test, but yeah, brand
great subheading too.
Josh Hall (32:10):
Great subheading, and I may even use those for like
testimonial section headings.
Um yeah, yeah.
Greg Merrilees (32:18):
And put it into your market in, your you know,
your YouTube shorts, yourInstagram posts, etc.
Josh Hall (32:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, this is great, Greg.
Well, thanks so much, but thisis a fun little free audit,
dude.
This is awesome.
I can't wait to play aroundwith that.
So, was that one?
I'm looking at your freeresources.
Was that the AI interactiveauthor, the first one there?
Greg Merrilees (32:39):
Correct, yeah.
You get them all.
You just opt in to get allthose things, which uh, yeah,
there's a lot of really valuablestuff in there that your
community would love.
It's like a blueprint withthere's so many valuable things,
including full case studies,uh, you know, and mood boards
and and uh client interviews.
And yeah, there's like I thinkseven PDFs in there, a whole
(33:01):
range of things.
Josh Hall (33:02):
Heck yeah, man.
That'll be the main resource wewe get out on this one for
sure.
That's great.
And I I just I think it's it'simportant to have this idea.
I mean, it depends on how I howfar I guess a web designer is
going with creating copy.
And if they are doing that, ifit's SEO related.
But I mean, even if you're notquote unquote a copywriter as a
web designer, you're going to dosome copy.
(33:24):
So why not have this as theresource that you kick projects
off?
Clients would see this and belike, how much?
How much?
Let's let's get this going.
Greg Merrilees (33:35):
Yeah, it's a really valuable tool.
I use it all the time.
Every time I get a new client,uh new prospect, I'll ask this
tool to review their websitewith those nine points.
Uh, and then yeah, I willrecord a video and run through
sharing you know my screentalking about these points that
my AI came up with based on mybook.
So super helpful.
And then we get sales fromthat.
So any of your designers coulddo the same thing with this
(33:57):
tool.
Josh Hall (33:58):
So brand positioning is basically differentiation, if
we could distill it.
Is that fair?
Greg Merrilees (34:03):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And also not justdifferentiation from your
competitors, but think about uhmaking sure it aligns with your
offer and your price point,right?
So if your Mercedes Benz, youdon't want it to look like it's
come from, you know, it lookslike a Walmart looking design.
You know what I mean?
Like you've got to match thedesign with the price point.
(34:24):
Uh otherwise people will, youknow, won't expect it to be as
like let's say you've got ahigh-end brand.
Um, let's say look at look atyour Web Designer Pro versus
maybe one of your higher levelcompetitors.
I think your look and feel, thecolor palette, suits your
target audience, who you'retrying to attract, right?
But let's say if you're areally high tier coach, business
(34:45):
coach, and you charge $25,000 ayear like most of them do.
Um, if they don't have a reallyhigh high-end pro look in
design that looks really slick,professional photography, all
that stuff, then people won'tthink that they're as good as
they are just by looking attheir website.
So your website design can lookyou uh let you down if it
doesn't position you correctly.
Josh Hall (35:06):
Yeah, or vice versa, it can make you look awesome,
even if you're just gettinggoing.
Greg Merrilees (35:11):
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then if you do sell really,you know, low-end commodity
type products and your websitelooks too expensive, that people
think, oh, maybe this stuff'snot for me.
You know, I want cheap stuff.
Josh Hall (35:24):
What uh what what are your thoughts on I guess color
palette, but also just design ingeneral with that thought?
I guess what makes an elegantdesign when it comes to like
higher end whether it'scoaching, coaching, or yeah.
Greg Merrilees (35:40):
Yeah, yeah, high contrast, a lot of dark
background.
You don't want too much darkbackground though with white
text because it's quite hard toread.
It won't pass the ADAcompliance things and all that,
but uh I wouldn't worry aboutthat you know too much for a
smaller business.
But uh yeah, high contrast,dark background, even having
some luxury textures in there aswell, you know, in the
background, uh light in, justthings that make uh things look
(36:04):
uh look and feel premium.
If you look at any watchwebsite, they look premium, you
know.
If you go to Tag Hure or Rolex,like have a look at those
websites, they're just very highcontrast, dark backgrounds,
light backgrounds, um, like asin black and white, and then
they just let their product bethe hero with photography.
And yeah, it's really not muchcopy.
(36:25):
I mean, I don't like using it.
I understand copyright isextremely important, but um, if
you are if you have a warmaudience or a well-known brand
and that comes from good brandpositioning and marketing, then
less copy will still be totallyfine.
It's only when you're achallenger brand, like smaller
guys, like most of youraudience, then I wouldn't
simplify the copy too muchbecause you're missing out on
(36:48):
letting your prospects knowwhat's unique about you, how you
can solve their problem, andthe fact that you understand
their situation, their problemsas well.
If you just skim over all thatand don't include it because you
just want to showcase your coolfolio, um, yeah, people won't
know why they should choose youover your competitors and that
you have a solution for themspecifically.
Josh Hall (37:08):
What are some of your favorite personal conversion
tips and tricks?
Greg Merrilees (37:16):
Favorite, there's so many.
I honestly I think it juststarts with a good foundation.
Like there's no real you'vejust got to say, I could tell
money whenever you want, but I'mI'm kind of curious.
Josh Hall (37:27):
Yeah.
Greg Merrilees (37:28):
I would say copywriting, you can have the
biggest wins by tweaking yourcopywriting.
All right, like that's easierto create, you know, different
versions.
By the way, you don't have to AB split test uh at the same
time.
If you have low traffic, youcan split test over time.
So one week change a copy tothis, next week change it to
(37:48):
that, and just see what happenswith your conversions.
So yeah, you don't need fancytools, you can test over time.
But yeah, copywriting issurprising how you can get the
biggest wins just by making copytweaks.
So yeah, to me, that's whateverybody should be trying
first.
Josh Hall (38:05):
And now it'd be a mixture of headline, call to
actions, differentiators.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, kind of what you outlineand the and the author, the AI
author.
Greg Merrilees (38:16):
Yeah.
I would also say like if youhave uh any type of business
that is growing, you've probablycollected a lot of social
proof.
And whether that's in the formof written testimonials, video
testimonials, full case studies,etc.
And what we find is having adedicated page for all that on
our website, you know, peoplejust go to that page and go, oh
(38:38):
wow, okay, that's a lot ofsocial proof.
They may not read it all or orwatch all the videos, but when
you have hundreds of thesethings in one page, like sure,
you want to spread social proofover every page, but if you have
a dedicated page to socialproof, uh yeah, it can be super
powerful.
We got one client called pianoin21days.com.
He has this social proof pagethat has so much social proof,
(39:01):
he has to segment it into agegroup, into cities.
Like it's he's got literallythousands of social proof, you
know, in one page.
Josh Hall (39:10):
So what's super I'm using I'm using Sinja now for
for all my testimonials.
What's he using?
Greg Merrilees (39:17):
That's yeah, we've had clients have used
that.
I don't know what he's usingpersonally.
Um don't he we designed hiswebsite, but then he had
somebody else build it, so Idon't know what he uses.
But gotcha.
Yeah.
Josh Hall (39:28):
Well, you're just reaffirming.
I'm feeling good because you'rereaffirming reaffirming
everything I'm working on withthe do version of Webpresenter
Pro.com, which will be live bythe time this airs.
So excellent.
But the the social proof, whatI realize, and this is for
anyone, I think it's funnybecause with testimonials, they
tend to just creep in over time,especially if you're really
(39:49):
active on getting them.
And then depending on ifthey're per product or for a
whole brand in general, it'svery surprising how many you'll
have.
Like, I know my my business isdifferent than a service-based
web designer, but I lookedrecently and I'm like, I've got
over 300, almost three, over 350course testimonials.
And then I've got a hundredplus video testimonials that
(40:13):
talk about pro and are indifferent aspects of my coaching
or my or my community.
So we've actually we'recurrently working on loading all
those into Sinja.
And then they are dedicated toWeb Designer Pro as a whole, Web
Designer Pro courses, WebDesigner Pro community, and Web
Designer Pro Coaching.
And I'm really doing that sameapproach of like course
(40:34):
testimonials, communitytestimonials, coaching
testimonials.
Perfect.
Greg Merrilees (40:39):
Do you have any case?
Yeah, I would segment them allon one page, but um, do you have
any case studies from them,like a proper, you know,
full-length case study?
Yeah.
Josh Hall (40:50):
That is the next ones we're working on.
I'm gonna launch it with justthe main reviews page, and then
I'm gonna start to add fullstories, like full-on case
studies, yeah, with a probablystart off with half a dozen and
up to probably a dozen of my promembers who are like, you know,
they're like just such a goodstory.
This is the kind of person Iwant in this category.
Greg Merrilees (41:11):
Yeah, exactly.
And you've done case studypodcast episodes.
If you turn some of them intoactual one page per case study
where you talk about theirsituation before they came to
you, what their challenges andproblems were, and you know,
what their tool stack was andall these things.
And then when they joined Pro,they learned all these, they saw
a whole new world and all thesethings changed for them, and
(41:33):
you know, um, what yourinvolvement was, and you know,
et cetera.
And then what the results were,right?
Uh if you have nice visualswith all these things as well.
And with the results, it's youknow, they went from this to
that and blah, blah, blah.
And then you have some impactmetrics of what it meant to
their business, and then a nicetestimonial, whether that's in
written or video, like that is akiller case study page that you
(41:55):
would only need like three tosix of those type of pages and
potentially targeting slightlydifferent areas of your target
audience, and then add them toyour email marketing nurture
sequence, uh, do podcastepisodes on each one of them and
send people directly to thosecase study pages.
Obviously, the call to actionis to join membership, uh,
sorry, designer pro, right?
(42:16):
And so, yeah, that could be areally powerful strategy because
if you just do that wall oflove page, um, it can be
overwhelming.
They may not know what to focuson.
And if you had individual justone case study, a full story, it
can be, yeah, super powerful.
Josh Hall (42:32):
So, well, first of all, I'm gonna take that
transcript and use that as thethe outline for the case study
pages because I had three, Ihave three I'm working on right
now, but yeah, I just I wasgoing back and forth on like
what to what to ask, where toposition it, but what you laid
out right there before you join,after you join, results with
the visuals, testimonial, andthen some of those little finer
(42:56):
aspects in there.
That was that was gold.
So I'll use that as the prompt.
unknown (43:00):
Yeah.
Greg Merrilees (43:01):
If you pick from your best testimonials, let's
say a dozen, and if you sendthem an email, uh say, say, hey,
look, you know, I'm redesigningmy website.
I'd love to use you, one of myfavorite clients or customers,
whatever you call them, uh, orpro members, um, uh as a case
study on my website, and thenyou just ask those questions
that you you know, what was yoursituation like before you came
(43:22):
to us?
How did we help?
What were the results?
Um, that could be turned intothe case study.
And then you interview them onZoom or, you know, Riverside,
whatever you want to use.
Josh Hall (43:32):
Do you do a lot of those case studies?
Do you for folks who want to dothis with clients, even if it's
just on a smaller level withmaybe three, do you send a
client the list of questions sothey're prepared and then you go
into it, or do you try to keepit more loose and
conversational?
Greg Merrilees (43:48):
We we say, look, if if you want to do a written
testimonial or a video or jumpon a call and I interview you,
either way, use this format.
Leave it to them.
Josh Hall (43:59):
Gotcha.
Greg Merrilees (44:00):
Yeah.
Okay.
And then you see if you getenough information from it, and
then you can, you know, see ifnot, ask them if you can jump on
a call.
Like there's many ways tohandle it, but yeah, it has to
be around that um situation, youknow, challenge results because
or how you help, and thenresults, because that's what
(44:21):
people, you know, cold prospectswhen they see themselves in
that situation and they can see,oh wow, yeah, I can see myself,
and yeah, I had those sameproblems, and oh, I do have
those problems now.
I need to join this communitybecause wow, look at the results
he's got or she's got.
Josh Hall (44:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I what's kind of cool isfor for me and anyone who has a
lot of social proof already, Icould definitely create probably
a dozen full-on success storiesbased off of that framework
with the existing testimonialand then the podcast interview
if they want to go further.
I love it.
Yeah, that this gives me a lotof clarity.
(44:57):
Thanks for that, Greg.
I this feels a lot more clearto me on like, okay, I feel good
about just wrapping up becauseI I actually had Jap GPT, I took
the transcript and ran itthrough there for one of my
recent podcast interviews, butit just wasn't great.
And it was probably the prompt.
I had it make a case study, butit it left me confused reading
it.
So I want I wanted to make sureI avoided a confusing story uh
(45:21):
as a case study.
Greg Merrilees (45:22):
Got it.
Well, even use the theinteractive author of my book,
and yeah, it can you it couldtake whatever answers you get
from these people and turn itinto a more substantial case
study and get their approval, ofcourse.
But yeah, it'll, you know, theymay not give you exactly what
you want, so you can tweak it.
Josh Hall (45:41):
What are some hidden conversion tips that we haven't
hit on that maybe web designersaren't thinking of or maybe
they're missing?
We just I think we covered likethe the really the foundational
best conversion principlesthere for sure, with just the
the idea of clear headings, thecopy, call to actions between
(46:01):
hot medium and and kind of acold audience, differentiators.
Uh, we just went through alittle masterclass there of case
studies versus reviews andtestimonials.
What what's something else, oris there anything else that
yeah, we're missing?
Yeah.
Greg Merrilees (46:16):
Segmenting, I think, is super important, you
know, not just uh for yourdesigners to put on their
websites, but for when they'redesigning their clients'
websites, don't think of it as acatch-all.
Because let's say you'redesigning for a service
business, but they have various,we'll call them buckets, like
different buckets of targetaudiences.
You really want to segment themand have a landing page that
(46:37):
talks to each one of thosebuckets.
Or it might be a differentoffer, you know, it could be an
accountant that does bookkeepingaccounting, and I don't know,
maybe they have a membership orsomething else.
So they're totally differentoffers.
And so you really want to,yeah, segment first and then
have like not just a landingpage, but a whole funnel around
that from a lead magnet thatleads into that, you know, to
(46:58):
cater to cold and warm people.
Um, and then on the thank youpage, that's probably one of the
hidden missing things that mostdesigners miss, which is having
an amazing thank you page witha video face to camera that
says, you know, thank you forwhatever they've just done, but
then invites them into the nextstep of the funnel and explain
the benefits, fets of explainthe benefits of that next step,
(47:21):
etc.
And if it is, for instance, touh let's say if somebody's
booked a call with you, I liketo have FAQs in that thank you
page video that talks to theirobjections or frequently asked
questions that you hear on thosesales calls, because then when
people, A, they'll show up tothose sales calls and B, they'll
(47:41):
be more likely to convertbecause you've handled all the
objections in your thank youpage video.
Josh Hall (47:47):
So I want to be completely selfish and ask a Web
Designer Pro question here.
Um again, I know everything wecover is gonna are gonna help
folks as they're working ontheir lead generators and their
segments, but so my segments forWeb Designer Pro are builders.
I I call them builders,growers, and scalers.
Builders are folks who areearly on.
Um they may be brand they maybe brand new to web design or
(48:10):
they probably have started insome way and they're they're
they're one that gets serious,but they're essentially a
starter.
So I currently have a freestarter lead generator that's uh
like a one-hour training withall my tips on getting started.
And um, I'm gonna revamp thatfor the new version of Web
Desenter Pro.
So that'll be my lead generatorfor the builder.
I've got one for growers whohave a business that's cooking,
(48:31):
but they want to get to sixfigures, and then I have one for
scalers who are at a six-figurelevel, but they just they're
swamped, they need to grow asmall team but don't want to be
a big agency.
So I have my seg I have mysegments very clearly defined,
even more so in the new versionof the website.
I've got two of the three leadgenerators, and I'm gonna create
the third one and get thoserefined with with seek with
(48:52):
segments from or uh withsequences from the new case
studies that I create for sure,that are you know, a builder, a
grower, and a scaler.
My question is I when peoplecome to WebCenterPro.com, I
don't want to deter them fromjoining to go to the free stuff.
So my only apprehension when Isee your type of setup on Studio
(49:15):
One is do you think that wouldwork for me to have like free
resources big and boldsomewhere?
Greg Merrilees (49:21):
Or should I use the free resources as more
marketing and yeah, marketingexactly to drive yeah to drive
people from the podcast, youknow, to the free resources.
Yeah.
And I would also suggest justhave an exit pop, you know, like
only when they go to leave thewebsite, not an entry pop
because it's so damn annoying.
But when somebody goes to leavethe website and they haven't
(49:43):
taken action, they haven'tjoined, then why not offer them
something that's helpful andvaluable to them uh that's going
to give you a lead that you cannurture.
And then when they are ready,they'll you'll be top of mind.
Josh Hall (49:57):
Gotcha.
I like that idea for sure.
Yeah, because uh I I was alwaysa little bit leery about like
when somebody goes toWebCenterPro.com, I want them to
join.
They're likely already, I mean,I'm not really doing cold
outreach right now.
Maybe if I do cold outreach,that could change a little bit,
but that makes total sense.
I love that idea.
It feels like what about footerin the website?
At least have a link to freeresources in the footer.
(50:19):
That way, if they're downthere, they know it's there.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I love that idea of an exit.
Yeah, I love that idea of anexit pop up for sure.
Greg Merrilees (50:31):
Yeah, but also, like you said before, for your
marketing from certain blogposts or YouTube videos or
podcast episodes that might becompletely relevant to one of
the lead magnets, you want tosend them directly to that lead
magnet first.
And then on your thank youpage, you know, that's where you
offer pro and talk about thebenefits.
Got it.
Josh Hall (50:51):
Thank you, Page, with the pro offer.
Greg Merrilees (50:54):
And generally speaking, on that thank you
page, video um page, let's saythank you page, video at the
top, and then you just have arepeat of your landing page,
your home page in this case,underneath the video.
And just the video thanks them,explains the benefits, and just
say the next logical step isblah, blah, blah.
And you can even have a limitedtime offer, just specific for
(51:16):
people, you know, for a limitedtime for people that opted in,
or I don't know, it's up to youwhat you want to do there, but
it can entice people to takeaction.
Josh Hall (51:26):
Yeah, one um one of the best tips I got from Russell
Brunson with the Click theClickFunnels guy, is he talked
about there, it was all aboutthe confirmation page and the
thank you page where they gotfolks to opt into a free trial
and then it was paid after that.
I'm not I'm not down with afree trial for pro, but to make
(51:48):
a no-brainer offer is definitelywhat I'm working on.
Greg Merrilees (51:51):
Um yeah.
If you have a 90-day money-backguarantee, you'll we did that
with SAC school from 30 to 90,that boosted his conversions.
Josh Hall (52:00):
Oh, interesting.
Does he have tiers in SACschool?
Greg Merrilees (52:05):
No, he has courses all within.
Um, he sometimes leads peopleto a course first, but that all
leads into the membership.
Josh Hall (52:15):
Gotcha.
Okay.
Greg Merrilees (52:17):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (52:18):
Gotcha.
unknown (52:19):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (52:19):
I was just thinking I would I wouldn't do a guarantee
with coaching, but like forcourses for sure.
I'd be happy to do that.
Just it because I do find thatpeople just need to get a taste
of it, and they're like, okay,yeah.
Exactly.
And I think it's I think thesehigh conversion best principles
are even more important in theAI age, which I imagine is the
theme.
It's the theme of your book,How to Stand Out in the AI age,
(52:42):
but like trust, basically.
I I'm really, really leaninginto trust.
Greg Merrilees (52:47):
I love it.
Yeah, you're doing all theright things.
You've got your personal brandwebsite, you've got your
podcast, you you've got you knowthe pro membership, you've got
lead magnets, and everythingthat you do to get people in
there, to me, you've builtenough trust already.
So you're doing all the rightthings to build trust in your
brand.
Josh Hall (53:06):
You can always experience this.
Yeah, right.
You've probably experiencedthis with clients, but I've
realized I've so many people whojoin pro who say, I've been
listening to your podcast fortwo years or a year or two, I
finally joined.
And I'm like, what have I beendoing wrong that we had to wait
two years to join?
So that's what I'm working onis like moving from the two-year
(53:27):
window to like, you know, let'smake it to like the two-day or
two-month window.
Greg Merrilees (53:30):
Uh I wouldn't see that as what do you what am
I doing wrong?
I would see that as if youweren't doing anything, they
wouldn't know you exist.
So it's a long game.
Who cares if it's two years?
You know, your future self willthank you for the work you're
doing today.
Josh Hall (53:47):
True.
I guess I just feel bad forthem because it's like you can
make so much more money so muchfaster and get so much more
freedom so much faster.
That's what I like.
That it's like it's a shame.
It's a shame when I meetpeople.
And I get and I get some, youknow, sometimes there's a time
and a place where, like, yeah,you're just not at a good place
to dedicate to I get it totally.
But yeah, for some folks, yeah,I'm like, I mean, I've had pro
(54:10):
members tell me, I'm like,they're like, God, I wish I
would have done this, you know,years ago.
I would have I could have beenfull-time already, or I could
have been going to my kids'baseball games instead of
missing them.
So uh, that's a good point.
That could be a fun littlething I I might add in the AI
author for some urgency to helpwith some urgency on it without
being super sleazy in sales,which is not my style anyway,
(54:31):
but no, exactly.
Greg Merrilees (54:32):
But yeah, just talk about the the case studies
and you know how life could looka lot better.
Um, you know, why wait?
And then just talk about therisk reversal, which is that
whatever day guarantee 30, 60,90.
unknown (54:46):
Yeah.
Josh Hall (54:47):
Yeah, man.
Well, Greg, this has beenawesome, dude.
This was kind of half coachingsession for me, so I really
appreciate it.
I will I tell you what, I'mgonna I'm gonna give you I wanna
I'm gonna give you early accessto my new site once it's ready
if you uh if you're interested.
I'd love your I'd love your I'dlove your critique just to give
you some high-level pointers.
(55:08):
But um your book, man, nextlevel website design.
I told you before we went live.
Uh I regret to inform everyone,I haven't read it yet.
Uh it's on my list, but I havemy signed copy, so I'm really,
really fired, especially afterthis conversation.
I know this is all stuff that'sunpacked here, but uh, we got
the book, and then you got somekiller free resources.
(55:28):
So, yeah, where should everyonego next, man?
Greg Merrilees (55:31):
Yeah, thanks, man.
We've got the audio book comingout shortly, too.
I've actually had uh 11 Labs,which is uh an AI tool, uh clone
my voice, and it's incredible.
Like it's 10 hours of uh of me,and I've listened to it.
We've had to tweak it a littlebit, but it's pretty damn good.
So it's not on Audible justyet, it's on Apple Books, but
(55:52):
yeah, we're just it's gonna goon all the platforms.
We're just waiting for them toapprove it.
But yeah, so next level websitedesign.com forward slash free
if you want the free resources,or yeah, just.com if you want to
check out the book.
Josh Hall (56:05):
Heck yeah, man.
Well, Greg, again, dude, thankyou for your time.
Thank you for sharing yourexpertise.
Uh, let's get you stateside soyou can be a speaker at one of
our upcoming WDP con events,man.
Greg Merrilees (56:16):
Sounds awesome, man.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that offer.
Yeah.
Keep me uh couple years.
Josh Hall (56:23):
I'm hoping to do one uh overseas.
So if we can get down toAustralia, we have some we have
some Aussie members, so if wecan get down to Australia, we'll
do one down there.
Greg Merrilees (56:31):
That'd be cool.
Yeah, that'd be super cool.
Yeah, come to Melbourne.
It's where it's a city whereit's all happening.
Terrible government, but greatcity, very cultural.
Josh Hall (56:40):
I'm a tennis guy, so I I've always wanted it's been
on my bucket list to go to thetennis program down there.
Greg Merrilees (56:44):
So you are a tennis guy, yeah.
Yeah, it's uh incredible herewhen when the tennis is on, it's
very popular.
Josh Hall (56:51):
Oh, heck yeah.
I'm in.
Well, Greg, thanks, man.
A blast as always.
Till the next time.
Greg Merrilees (56:56):
You bet.
Thank you, Josh.
Take care.
Josh Hall (56:59):
All right, my friend.
Again, I hope you enjoyed thisone.
So much to learn from Greg.
I feel like we this was a bitof a masterclass here, and we
still just scratched thesurface.
So if you want to go furtherinto proven principles on
website conversion, check outGreg's book, Next Level Website
Design.
That will be linked over at theshow notes for this one at
joshhall.co slash 405.
(57:21):
And as we talked about, I wouldhighly recommend that you check
out Greg's Studio, Studio OneDesign.
His website is studio thenumber one design.com.
Um, if you want some infobecause he knows what the heck
he's talking about.
He is the expert on websiteconversion, so I can't wait to
hear how this one helps.
Make sure to send Greg a note,let him know you heard him on
(57:43):
the podcast, connect with himon.
I think he's active on prettymuch every social media
platform.
So let him know you heard himhere.
Maybe share a win or a takeawayfrom this conversation.
I know he'd love to hear fromyou.
And a big thanks to Greg forpulling the curtain back on
website conversions on what'sworking for their agency.
And I'm excited to hear how ithelps you, my friend.
Go to joshall.co slash 405 forall the links on this one.
(58:03):
Cheers.
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