407 - How This SEO Agency is Implementing AI SEO with Lindsay Halsey

There are a lot of ongoing changes happening with SEO and how user behavior is changing with AI. It’s hard enough to keep up with as a web designer…I can’t imagine as a client!

But someone who’s doing a great job keeping their SEO clients in-the-know and updated every step of the way is Lindsay Halsey, co-founder of SEO agency webshine.com

She shares how they’re implementing AI SEO, how it’s changing their current offers, pricing and what they’re not changing.

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/407

Episode Transcript

Josh Hall (00:59):
Your investment in SEO goes further because it
helps you also build visibilityin the emerging space of
AI-based tools.
So if you want to be part ofthe conversation in Chat GPT or
Gemini Perplexity Claude, etcetera, the foundation of what
we're doing within your SEOcampaign covers this whole area

(01:20):
of generative engineoptimization or GEO.
And so in some ways, we'regoing further with our work.
And in some ways, the oldmetrics of success are outdated.
And we have to think about allof this in a much more holistic,
less siloed way to be able toidentify what the value is.

(01:45):
Helping you build a web designbusiness that gives you freedom
and a lifestyle you love.

Lindsay Halsey (01:51):
Hello, my friend.
It's great to have you here.
Now, you as a web designer knowthere's a lot changing in the
world of SEO with AI.
So I thought it would beawesome to have a conversation
about this, specifically hearingfrom somebody who runs an SEO
agency.
So I'm pumped to bring on backto the podcast my good friend in

(02:12):
SEO Land, repeat guest of theshow, Lindsay Halsey.
Now, if that same name soundsfamiliar, it's because you
likely know her from the brandPathfinder SEO, which is a tool
for web designers to help thembuild their SEO plans.
But if you didn't know, she'salso the co-founder of an SEO
agency called WebShine.
You can find them atwebshine.com.

(02:33):
So in this conversation, we'redrifting away from Pathfinder
and actually getting intoexactly what they're doing with
their SEO offers, how they'reimplementing AI in their SEO
plans, how they're lettingclients know about it,
everything and more in the worldof AI and SEO.
Speaking of, before we dive in,if you didn't know, I do have
an SEO playlist that is going tocover all of the podcast

(02:58):
episodes prior to this about AIand SEO.
You can go to joshhall.co slashplaylist and there there will
be categories or categories ofall of the different topics for
the show.
One of them is SEO.
So if you didn't know, that's afree resource available to you
to get caught up on this episodeand all of the prior episodes
about SEO.

(03:18):
All right, without further ado,here is Lindsay.
We're going to hear about whather SEO agency web chine is up
to in the world of AI and SEO.
All right, well, Lindsay, it'sreally good to have you back on
as one of my trusted SEOconfidants and gurus.
You know, for years we'vetalked about Pathfinder SEO,

(03:40):
which you've had a part in.
I know you guys are goingthrough some changes up ahead
with that, at least at the timeof recording this, because
you're really headfirst intoyour client work and service
work.
So I figured we'd kind of jumpinto that on this one,
specifically like what you aredoing on the agency side as an
SEOer, particularly with AI andhow things are changing so

(04:01):
rapidly, but also not changingas I've found out with SEO.
So really excited to have youback on and to dive into that
side of things today, if you'redown for that.

Josh Hall (04:08):
Yeah, that sounds great.
Thanks so much uh for having meback uh to chat about SEO.
And uh, and yeah, there's a lotgoing on in the world of AI, of
course.
And as we all help our clientsnavigate um how AI is changing
search and what it means forSEO, um, we have been really
active in this um at our agencyat WebShine and really trying to

(04:31):
help our clients, whetherthey're local businesses,
e-commerce, um big nationalbrands, like what do they need
to be thinking about right now?
What do they need to be doing?
Does their strategy need tochange?
Um, how do they stay a littleahead of the curve?

Lindsay Halsey (04:44):
So let's get like the foundation of what your
service suite is with WebShine.
Um, I know on your website itsays you're doing Google Ads,
SEO, Google Analytics, and thenwhite label ads.
Are those your main buckets orwhat what other services are you
doing in your little suite ofSEO services there?

Josh Hall (05:04):
Yeah, so our agency focuses on basically helping
businesses get found on Google,Yahoo, and Bing as the primary
kind of orientation of ourservices.
And so that means search engineoptimization, that means Google
Ads.
Um these days, that also meanson the paid side, we do help um
our clients also with some paidsocial in Meta, Reddit,

(05:27):
LinkedIn, et cetera.
And then also on the SEO side,now we're starting to talk about
well, what about when you wantto get found and build
visibility on AI tools likeChatGPT, Perplexity Cloud?
So really we're in themarketing services industry
space.
We don't design and buildwebsites, and that means most of
our clients are on an ongoingretainer with us, and the

(05:49):
partnership is all about helpingthem grow their business, um,
generate more leads, generatemore sales via marketing
services.

Lindsay Halsey (05:57):
I have a huge question I'm so curious about
for SEO agencies who don't dothe web design.
Like, do you have partners whoyou trust to build websites and
then they come to you, or whereyou take on anyone who I mean,
like what do you do if somebodytakes a website to you and it's
just god-awful?
And you're like, we're notgonna invest in SEO if it's not
gonna convert.
Like, how do you handle takingover a website that you didn't

(06:20):
build?

Josh Hall (06:21):
So that happens where people come to us and say, I
want to hire you for SEO, andthen we look at their website
and say, like, A, um, if I couldbuild traffic to it, it's not
gonna convert because the siteis terrible.
Or B, um, I don't want to workunder the hood of this website
because it's not secure, it'snot well built, et cetera.
So those are two like stopperson our end.

(06:41):
Um, and back in the day, um Ihad a hard time just being
honest with clients, like, yourwebsite's terrible.
We can't really work with youright now.
And so I would bring them onand say, well, they asked me for
SEO services.
I'm gonna just go do my job.
I'm gonna just go deliver theservice.
But what we found was thoseclients never stay on for more
than three to six months becausethey don't see a return on
investment.

(07:01):
Um, we do the work, they getmore traffic if we can, you
know, do the work like under thehood and things are working,
but um they get more traffic andthey don't see more sales and
leads because their websitedoesn't convert.
And so we find now in thisposition of being just a little
more confident and mature in umin our skill set and everything,
that we're better having thattransparent conversation of,

(07:24):
hey, we'd love to work with you.
Um, you know, and and here area couple things that I think we
might need to solve this beforewe solve more traffic.
We might need to solveusability and design and and
things like that.
And then it gives us anopportunity to refer business
back to the web designers andagencies that send us business
on the SEO and Google ads.
So that partnership um isreally helpful in that we offer

(07:48):
a really specific service.
Um, a lot of times we can referleads out to other great web
designers and agencies, umdevelopers, and then um when
they're ready, they can comeback to us.

Lindsay Halsey (07:58):
I mean, it's fun talking to you on the other
side of being a referral partnerbecause this is one of the
hidden gems that I teach forgetting clients, which is if you
don't want to do SEO or youdon't want to do long-term
commitment kind of stuff orongoing growth plans with SEO or
ads, partner up with the youknow, the Lindsay of your area.
Like it's such a gold mine forboth SEOers and marketers and

(08:21):
web designers who want to do thebuild and strategy, but not the
the ongoing stuff.
How did you meet and connectwith your referral partners who
do the development and design?

Josh Hall (08:32):
In communities just like this, um, but it was kind
of before uh we all met and andcreated community online.
It was a lot more in-personevents.
Um, but yeah, a lot of timesjust going to in-person events
um or local events and beinglike, hey, um, you know, it's
really fun.
We we were we live in a tinytown, my business partner and I,
and um, and so we live nearAspen, Colorado, and we actually

(08:54):
have um like a WordCamp groupthat gets together.
We used to go to WordCamps, butwe get together and we're
always amazed at likefreelancers and agencies that
come out of the woodworks whenwe put it on meetup, um, even
today, and we go and um and meetup in our local tiny area that
there are other people andthey're like, oh, you love
social media?
I I'm not good at social media.

(09:15):
I don't offer it as a service.
Like, let's like hook up andlet's like refer each other
business and things like that.
So that's worked really wellfor us.

Lindsay Halsey (09:23):
So WordCamps through like uh either either
probably WordCamp Central or orMeetup.
Yeah, meetup.com is stillincredible.

Josh Hall (09:30):
Like there's still it's still pretty big.
Um yeah, so meetups, um, wereally encourage, we have a
small team.
Um we're a team of four, anduh, we really encourage our team
members to be active too.
So that like broadens ourgeographic range a little bit.
Um, and whether it's um they goto something that, you know,
really anything that intereststhem, it could be a small

(09:50):
business meetup.
Um, they're the only one inthis like agency digital space,
or it could be something moredigitally minded where they meet
other kind of referralpartners, but really just
getting out there in the world,whatever is um, and I always say
it's like I try to make it soit's comfortable for me because
I kind of want it to be fun, butI push myself a little bit
socially into that like placewhere I'm like, oof, uh, you

(10:13):
know, I don't know anyone here,or like this makes me feel
nervous, or I have to speak atan event.
Um, like just that little bitsometimes of saying, like, okay,
you know, and giving yourselfthat little I can do it, like I
can go to an event and not knowanyone and try to navigate this,
just like I try to make my kidsdo things like that from time
to time.
Um, so yeah, really justgetting out there in the world

(10:36):
has been our way of stayingconnected.
Um, and then ultimately thereferral partner is if you're a
good referral partner, you'rekind of gonna pick up good
referrals back.
Um and so just like alwaystrying to be a good person that
connects the dots between peopleand uh and it somehow is just
sort of a um it just sort ofhappens um when when you're out

(10:56):
there participating in thatspace.

Lindsay Halsey (10:58):
Yeah, and then like you mentioned, of course,
online.
I mean, that's the beauty aboutespecially with where
communities are at today.
I think with Web Designer Pro,with you know, you've had a big,
big part in Pathfinder foryears with bringing people into
Pathfinder SEO.
I'm sure that's led to somereally good designers who are in
your corner as referralpartners.
I think it's different than bigFacebook groups now because

(11:20):
it's really hard.
I found I mean, maybe 10 yearsago it was a little bit
different because it was kind ofall there were.
But I think it's harder now ina big group of 10 to 20,000
people to build goodrelationships online.
I really the the microcommunities are where it's at
with finding referral partners,I think now.

Josh Hall (11:40):
I agree.
And also like just the microconferences, I think that's
another one.
You can go to like the two andthree and four thousand person
conferences, and I've been toplenty over the years of like
SEO conferences and whateverthey are.
And I struggle with that.
Like I come out with fewerconnections and fewer meaningful
conversations.
When I go to like the moremicro, like the 50 to 100 um,

(12:02):
you know, person events, I feellike in the course of three
days, you get to know likeeverybody in that room, and you
actually can kind of remembermore conversations and you walk
away, like I used to walk awaywith stacks of business cards
from like the big WordCamps andthings like that.
And nothing ever came of those.
Like I just there was volume,but there wasn't kind of that
depth of quality.

(12:22):
And so I think whether you'retalking a community like Web
Designer Pro or going to events,um, I I actually like I tend to
gravitate more now to thesmaller communities and the
smaller events because I feellike, yeah, from a personal
level, there's more humanconnection.
And then with that comes morelearning, um, more referral

(12:43):
business, just like morecollaboration, um, a lot of like
mutual high fives of success.
And I think it's something thatreally differentiates our
industry in the most fantasticway.
Um, is that I remember going toa WordCamp and my dad was with
me.
He used to work in insurance,and he was like, he was just
floored by how collaborativeeverything was.

(13:04):
Like I would introduce and wewould chat with somebody, and
he's like, Isn't that kind ofyour competitor?
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
I don't like that's totally nothow we operate.
And so I think we're reallylucky um in an industry space um
that there is this just likeshared um, we will all succeed
together mentality, much more sothan there is a competitive

(13:27):
sense.

Lindsay Halsey (13:28):
Gosh, that's so well said, Lindsay.
Is it isn't that funny?
Because it's such a corporateworld thing.
Uh, every time we have folksjoin pro who are from the
corporate world, that's oftenthe first thing they say is
they're like, I can't believe Ihave a video testimonial on the
homepage right now from Steve,who came from the corporate
world, one of my Web Design Promembers, and said he's just been
floored because he's like, Wedon't do this in the corporate

(13:51):
world.
Like, we don't help each othersucceed.
It's a dog eat dog.
You know, if you help somebody,they're gonna take your
position on the ladder.
It's so different, which isjust one of the many things I
love about the web design world.
So it's it's a really importantmindset to have when going into
these referral groups and thesenetworking groups, too, even if
it's just a casual meetup withother web designers, is to just

(14:12):
be a referral person, like be abe a referrer, if that's the
right word.
Uh also, one thing I wanted tomake note of was when you
mentioned the the micro meetupsand the micro conferences.
I think it's important toremember too, if you make a
better connection with like twopeople in a weekend and they
become potential referralpartners, they have a network.

(14:32):
And so you can get access totheir network very easily.
So it's I feel like you canactually potentially get in with
a network of people who couldbe referral partners for you
just by meeting half a dozenpeople versus going to a
1,000-person conference.
Because like you said, they'revery shallow uh relationships
initially.
Like maybe you'll meet somebodywho you dive with, but it's

(14:54):
just a lot harder.
So all that to say, like, yes,ditto on all that.

Josh Hall (14:59):
Yeah.
And that was our experience tooin any of these events, is like
those couple of really greatrelationships.
And then you start partneringup and doing some things, and
before you know it, you getintroduced to their world and
you introduce them, you know,vice versa.
Um, yeah, and that's one of thethings that makes kind of our
industry really, I think, uniqueand uh one of the things I
liked the most about it.

Lindsay Halsey (15:19):
Are you are you guys working on websites that
aren't WordPress?

Josh Hall (15:23):
We are.
Um so uh Web Shine when westarted, and when I left, kind
of the I used to work for alarge digital agency as their
like director of searchmarketing, and then I left to
start um my own agency.
And at the time I was all in onDrupal.
Uh, and I was really good atDrupal SEO.
And it turned out.

Lindsay Halsey (15:43):
You and like seven other people around the
world.

Josh Hall (15:45):
It turns out it was really niche, and I uh and I was
able to get like some goodclients right out of the gate.
And then I started to getfrustrated with it for a million
reasons that were more based onthe platform and not based on
SEO.
And so we got more intoWordPress and then Squarespace.
And now these other contentmanagement systems really are um
excelling in the world ofsearch.

(16:06):
So it used to be like, oh, ifyou want to, you know, blog a
lot, you better be on WordPressbecause that's like the only
thing that's gonna really likehelp your blog shine.
And so we'll only work there.
But now we find like, hey,blogs built on other platforms
are doing pretty well too.
And it's not so much the tool,it's how you use it.
And so our we've we'vedefinitely opened things up to

(16:27):
working across um, you know, Iwould say uh eight, eight to ten
different content managementsystems, et cetera.
Um and uh and even have likeone or two Drupal sites still in
the mix.

Lindsay Halsey (16:39):
How are you connecting with those people who
are non-wordpressers?
Do you do you do like justgeneral web design meetups or
marketing meetups, that kind ofthing?

Josh Hall (16:47):
Or those tend to come as more referred leads from our
existing client base.
So when we start to get out ofthe WordPress space, they tend
to be more industry related.
Oh, I work I work a lot intravel and vacation rentals.
Um, uh, I work a lot ine-commerce.
And so you sort of get a leadfrom an existing client.
Um, and it turns out they werea WordPress site, but they're

(17:09):
referring you to someone intheir industry, but they have a
different build.
Um, that's kind of how thoseprojects tend to come in.
Um, and then also we bring inclients through SEO, which you
know tends to fall more intothat WordPress world that I
spend most of my time in.
Um, but we also bring inclients um that are looking for
Google ad services.

(17:30):
And Google ad services, if youhave a well-built website, it
really doesn't matter to us howit's built.
Um, and so those clients tendto come in on all different
content management systems.
And then after running some adswith us for a while, they tend
to want SEO services.
So we I it's not necessarilythe most scalable business model
because we're on all thesedifferent content management

(17:53):
systems, so no one thing is doneexactly the same way.
Um but in the world of SEO, um,most people that like it,
they're like kind of thatlifelong learner, like problem
solving oriented um solution.
And so the SEO strategy remainsthe same.
It's really just theimplementation where I have to
look something up and be like,okay, I'm in Squarespace right

(18:14):
now.
How do I go and set up GoogleAnalytics or how do I go and do
this thing?
And I can just Google it andfind it or jump on Chat GPT and
get like quick step by step, ohyeah, this is where I go.
Because I don't store all thatin my head.
Um, I think the value and thethe consistency is in how we
craft strategy and how how weactually you know do the work.

(18:34):
Um, the like the like nuts andbolts of where do you what box
do you check and where do you goto do it is is something that's
pretty easy to research andjust uh and and make happen.

Lindsay Halsey (18:46):
So I want to get into AI for an SEO agency, but
before we do, I am curious,because I think it's important
to understand for folks who arewanting to get further into SEO
or maybe have an SEO growth planor an SEO plan of sort.
I'm curious, how are youselling this?
Like, do you have a bit of anSEO strategy, like blueprint or

(19:08):
a roadmap that you sell?
I know that's been somethingthat's really been working for
Web Designer Pro members is toif they are going to do any sort
of, we'll just bucket it undergrowth plan, which most SEO or
SEO plans are some sort ofgrowth plan.
It's typically like we've seenbasically paid discovery work
really well to where it may be athousand to two thousand

(19:28):
dollars.
It's a roadmap.
And then once they have theplan for probably about a year,
they can choose to move forwardand actually implement that plan
with a with a certain monthlyamount, and then it's taken off.
Do you guys roll with that typeof model, or how are you
selling an SEO plan?

Josh Hall (19:43):
Yeah, so we sell SEO plans probably uh very similarly
to the folks in your community.
And we really I remember you umoutlining in in some podcast
recording or something I hadheard from you like there's
strategy, there's build, andthen there's evolve.
Like everything can fall intothese three categories, and
that's absolutely how um how wework.

(20:04):
And so we think of thebeginning of SEO is strategy, it
should be a paid engagement.
Um we call ours like an SEOassessment if the client already
has an existing website.
And um, what we're doing thereis just simply identifying where
are you today, where are youtrying to go, and how are we
gonna get you there.
Um, and uh and it helps tobasically build trust right out

(20:26):
of the gate.
Um, it is not thiscomprehensive audit that like
gives you a laundry list of allthe things that are wrong with
your website from an SEOstandpoint.
We're talking like high level,and so it's an entry-level um
offering, and um, and it allowsus to basically build trust with
a client, understand like thedynamics of what are going on in

(20:47):
their industry, what theirgoals are, align expectations,
and lay out a plan.
Um, and so that we call anassessment.
Um, and then we move into whatwe call a setup, and that's
where I'm like hands-on, let'sgo do the foundation.
So let's go and um check thebox and make sure that the
foundation on this website issound, and then let's move into

(21:08):
monthly, and that's where we'regonna evolve and grow together
over time and make sure that asyour business evolves, it's
reflected in your SEO, and asthe industry of SEO evolves,
it's reflected in your website.
So we always kind of joke thatGoogle seems to keep us well
employed on that retainermonthly front because it's
always changing, and you caneither get a little frustrated

(21:30):
with that or you can just leanin and say, like, this is my
job, security is that I'm gonnago and figure this thing out for
my client, I'm gonnacommunicate it to them, et
cetera.
And along the way, um, while weare obviously results oriented,
like that's why people hire us,um, when Google evolves in a
way that maybe makes the gameharder, which a lot of people

(21:53):
are feeling right now, like ifyou have a lot of traffic coming
into your blog, and then nowthe AI overviews and AI mode and
people turn to Chat GPT forthose informational queries.
They're not always goingthrough to websites these days.
Um, you know, if we just lookat like our success as being or
our result being sessionsincreasing over time, um, that

(22:16):
is not necessarily looking atthis in the big picture sense of
like, hey, well, it might beharder to actually win a session
right now.
So what are we doing now withour clients that's different?
Like, how are we adding valuein this era?
Um, that's what that monthlySEO plan is all about.
Um, and it's not always aboutjust chasing sessions and
rankings, it's about addingvalue and evolving and helping

(22:38):
them evolve with the times.

Lindsay Halsey (22:40):
Well, perfect segue, because that was what I
wanted to dive into next was thenitty-gritty of like what you
guys are actually doing toaccount for just the search
industry changing and AI search.
So, yeah, what are you guysdoing in particular there?
Uh, whether it's on-site withwebsites, whether it's yeah, I
mean, what are all the details?
Are you still doing backlinks?

(23:00):
Are you still doing authorityand working on domain authority?
Uh, I've got plenty of thoughtsI'd be happy to share on on my
strategy over the next year orso.
But what are you doing on theclient side of things to evolve?

Josh Hall (23:13):
Yeah, so the number one thing we're doing is
communicating.
Um, and that is that uh this isevolving quickly and uh and
clients need to come along inthe journey.
So we've always said that SEOisn't done in a back office and
it's not siloed, and that's moretrue today than it ever has
been.
So the first thing that we'redoing is um trying to
communicate better with clientsand let them know how AI is

(23:36):
changing search and what itmeans for them specifically, and
then what we're doing, youknow, to evolve with the times.
And so that communication, myfavorite way is via um a phone
call with like a Zoom link orsomething where I can actually
show them on a screen, like,hey, look at this search and
look at this, and explain tothem in um jargon-free, you

(23:59):
know, vocabulary what'shappening in um in the industry
space.
Um, I like to introduce to thema concept along the lines in
these communications of like, insome ways this is getting
harder, and in some ways yourinvestment's going further than
ever.
And so the harder piece is um,you know, when you publish a
blog post, uh it may not pick upas many click-throughs or or

(24:23):
sessions, it may not generate asmuch traffic as it would have a
year ago or five years ago.
So, in that sense, we investthe same thing in creating the
content and publishing thecontent.
And you know, if you look at itas a very direct output, we may
get less out of that individualpiece of content if we measure
it based on rankings andtraffic.

(24:43):
Um, that part of the game hasgotten harder.
On the flip side, yourinvestment in SEO goes further
because it helps you also buildvisibility in the emerging space
of AI-based tools.
So if you want to be part ofthe conversation in Chat GPT or
Gemini Perplexity, Claude, etcetera, the foundation of what

(25:04):
we're doing within your SEOcampaign covers this whole area
of generative engineoptimization or GEO.
And so, in some ways, we'regoing further with our work, and
in some ways, the old metricsof success are outdated.
And we have to think about allof this in a much more holistic,
less siloed way to be able toidentify like what the value is.

(25:26):
So this is this is educationthat could take like months for
clients to fully absorb andunderstand, right?
Like you're talking about majorshifting sands and changing the
way they think about, theythink about SEO as rankings,
they think about it as trafficand sales.
And now all of a sudden you'reintroducing a concept of
visibility.
You're introducing conceptsbeyond, you know, platforms

(25:49):
beyond Google, Yahoo, and Bing.
And you're starting to talk tothem about um marketing that's
so much less siloed because it'sactually kind of what you're
doing on other channels isinfluencing your overall sort of
brand visibility and your brandgrowth.
And so this is going to be whatwe're talking about, not just
like in one conversation, butit's in that conversation.

(26:10):
It's in if you do emailmarketing from your agency, if
you send monthly reports fromyour agency, we're just having
to come back to this time andtime again and understand that
um, you know, the foundation isstill the same.
The rug didn't get pulled outfrom under us, even as um all of
this is is reshaping.

Lindsay Halsey (26:30):
Well, I just told you before we hit record,
I'm uh about to revamp my SEOcourse, which is just that.
It is such a foundationalcourse that is best practices
that likely still holds truetoday.
Like at the time of recordingthis, I'm not sure when this is
gonna drop, it may be out bythen.
But the old version of the SEOcourse is still what I do and it
still works.
And it obviously I'm stillbeing pulled up on ChatGPT now

(26:53):
and other AI engines along withjust good old classic search and
snippets.
But uh so that's good.
That's good news that thefoundation is there.
But yeah, I think I mean foranyone who is gonna be remotely
I mean, I mean, even the basicsof these different SEO emerging
categories now, I think shouldbe covered.
Why don't we cover that realquick?
Is it fair to say that there'skind of three types of SEO now?

(27:16):
There's SEO, search engineoptimization, there's GEO, which
you meant which you mentioned,which is generative engine
optimization.
I'd like to dive into more ofthat.
And then AEO, answer engineoptimization.
Is that fair to say that thoseare kind of like the big three
right now?
Or is there overlap in betweenthem?

Josh Hall (27:35):
Those are the three, like, yeah, that everybody's
throwing around and doing a lotof like SEO versus AEO versus
GEO type comparisons.
Um, we're in a little bit moreumbrella here, which is
basically to say that this isall under one roof.
Like this is all one space ofbuilding your business or your
brand or your client's brand'svisibility and all of the ways

(27:57):
that people interact and youknow make decisions on who to
work with, purchase decisions,all the things.
But it's it's all encompassingthere.
And so kind of what works in,you know, they're not, these are
not siloed fields.
We're not like, well, thismonth we're gonna focus on AEO,
and next month we're gonna focuson GEO as part of your monthly
retainer.
But rather we're trying to say,like, here's the foundation.

(28:19):
Um, and then here are thingsthat we're like leaning into
right now because they play wellin the answer engine
optimization or they play wellin this generative engine
optimization.
So the foundation is the same,and then there's just areas that
we're leaning into or shiftingour focus into, um, sort of
doubling down our efforts tomake sure that we're really

(28:40):
staying current and resonatingwith what's working today.

Lindsay Halsey (28:43):
What is, if you could pinpoint or like in
layman's terms, explain thedifference between those three
GEO, SEO, and AEO.
I know you mentioned they arekind of an umbrella.
There's already there's got tobe some sort of difference.
What are like the subtledifferences between the three?

Josh Hall (28:59):
So I like this is how I would describe it to a
client.

Lindsay Halsey (29:02):
Um, and that is pretend like I'm five.

Josh Hall (29:05):
Like the very beginning, or like if I'm
talking to like just likefriends, what do you do?
Or and they ask some questions.
So search engine optimization,I've always said, is like the
art and science of getting foundon Google in the free or
organic space, right?
So we're talking about Googleas the core, but really I also
mean a little Yahoo and bing inthere.
Um, and and that istraditional, like, you know,

(29:26):
showing up.
Um it encompasses local, so itencompasses also getting found
like with the Google Mapsresults, but it's building
visibility on Google in theplaces that we don't have to pay
Google for the traffic.
So anywhere there's no Googleads.
Um when I think about answerengine optimization, I start to
think about the concept ofpeople turning to Google, Yahoo

(29:48):
Bing, and the AI platforms withquestion-based queries.
And all of a sudden, we are ininformational gathering, you
know, human mode.
And when we're doing that, weare playing towards how do we
get included in the answers asan authority in the space.
Um, and you know, you think ofpeople also ask, like that kind
of a feature on Google, youthink about being included in

(30:11):
those questions.
And so when you think aboutanswer engine optimization, you
think about a lot of like theconcepts of like I have a header
that's formed as the form of aquestion, and then I answer it
succinctly right below it, andthen I unpack my answer and show
my depth of expertise.
Like that kind of structuredapproach would be an example of

(30:32):
answer engine optimization in inthe real world.
Like I'm creating this dynamicof I'm here to share my
expertise in this space andanswer questions, and then
that's going to get picked up inall of these places.
Generative engine optimizationis building that visibility um
in the LLMs, in the Chat GPT AIworld.

(30:54):
Um, but at the end of the day,what works for SEO and like what
I was talking About 10 yearsago is still what works like
across the board here in termsof the foundation.
And so we always talked aboutlike the four pillars of SEO
being, you know, you need tohave a strong site foundation
with a fast, secure website withgreat user experience.

(31:16):
I put that under kind of liketechnical UX piece, like that
foundation where we started,like what do you do if someone
doesn't have a good-lookingwebsite that's solidly built?
It's kind of end of story,right?
Like that's the that's thebuilding block.
Then you layer on there thecontent world, that helpful
audience first content.
Um, that hasn't changed.

(31:36):
People's businesses' audienceshaven't changed.
So that that's still the game,the content game.
Then you have on-pageoptimization, which is where you
add context to your content.
You're adding in those, youknow, that alt text on images,
you're adding in headers intoyour content to make it easy to
scan, bullet points, pagetitles, and meta descriptions,

(31:56):
all of the ways we can digestmore from the content because
it's more visually appealing,um, because um things are kind
of user-friendly in the way thatthey're laid out, et cetera.
And then you have that wholeworld of off-site SEO, building
authority, backlinks, reviews,et cetera.
So all of that is still true.
Those four pillars of SEO aresort of the same four pillars of

(32:18):
AEO and GEO.
Like there's no um there's nodifferentiation in that
foundation.
What we're finding now, though,is if you care about um answer
engine and engine optimizationand GEO, and then also like what
the search engines are reallyvaluing today, there's some
areas where you can really shiftyour focus once that foundation

(32:39):
is complete.

Lindsay Halsey (32:41):
So that's beautiful.
Well said, great overview onall that.
Yeah, as a from a clientperspective, that makes sense
too as to why you're not gonnahave a month of GEO and a month
of AEO and a month of SEO.
It's like you you wouldprobably, I imagine, just focus
on like on-site work, um,optimization work, or content
building work, or off-site typeof SEO work, which would in turn

(33:04):
affect all the three, the threeEOs.

Josh Hall (33:07):
Yeah, exactly.
And so in the way our agencyworks, that foundation we
initially build during thatsetup phase, and then we um we
actually kind of like implementsome of the ongoing components,
like content doesn't really goaway, right?
We have to constantly becreating more content, and while
we're doing it, we're thinkingabout on-page optimization, et

(33:28):
cetera.
So the foundation gets built,and then we're starting to like
actually implement it.
And then when we think aboutwhat we're layering in or where
to shift focus, um, the thingsthat are working now, for
example, one is showcasing thewho behind the content.
So today the internet's floodedwith average content created by
AI.

(33:48):
Um, and what can we do isreally showcase like the our
expertise behind the content.
So it could be going back andrevising blog posts so that they
have like a more human andstorytelling-oriented
introduction to the post.
So that's like this is comingfrom someone that has skin in
the game and knows what they'retalking about because they're
telling a story or becausethey're sharing a first-person

(34:09):
narrative, um, for example.
Or making sure all of like yourclients' blogs actually have an
audience attached or an um anauthor attached to them.
Like instead of it being thisis the business's blog, let's go
and pull the people out andsay, like, this is the blog that
belongs to this person, andhere's who this person is and
why you should care about thispiece of content because this

(34:31):
author really knows what they'retalking about in this space.
So, this concept of likeshowcasing the who, it can be
adding testimonials to yourpages.
Um, it can be adding imagesthat are of real people instead
of stock photography, but likethat all really shines through
in the back end of a website andthen in the front end um in
terms of connecting the dot onsomething that resonates really

(34:54):
well today.

Lindsay Halsey (34:56):
My next question was how to specifically get
into GEO, like how to makeprogress on GEO, which I know is
so tricky.
It's funny because um, MichelleBourbonier, have you chatted
with her yet?

Josh Hall (35:07):
I haven't.
I need to.

Lindsay Halsey (35:09):
You guys are gonna be best friends.
It's gonna be ridiculous.
So she she's been my SEO, mypersonal SEO for years, and
she's a founding member of Pro.
She just did uh a training onAI search specifically and got
really nitty-gritty with some ofthe research.
If you get a chance, you shouldwatch the replay.

Josh Hall (35:25):
Check that one out.

Lindsay Halsey (35:26):
It is good.
I mean, it she's a researcher,if she's a PhD, uh like she gets
into the nitty-gritty.
So she really did some in-depthresearch on all this stuff.
But it was it's really it kindof reaffirmed my hope, which is
that these AI engines are justlooking for trust.
And they're more so looking forjust good quality content.

(35:47):
So, to what you just said, likefocusing on those little micro
details of like showing theauthor, giving real-world
examples, stories, stuff that isclearly not regurgitated AI.
I that's personally mystrategy, is I'm really leaning
into that.
So is it fair to say, like withGEO, is that probably the main

(36:08):
strategy to you know affect LLor LMM's um large language
models and like how they'researching, whether it's
perplexity or Chat GPT or Cloudor whatever?

Josh Hall (36:18):
Yeah, exactly.
You want to be out there andbuilding this sort of cloud of
context and meaning and valuearound a business or a brand.
And so um, for instance, um, ifyou know, in the old days you
would have just like publishedone blog post on a topic and
then moved on, now maybe sinkyour teeth into that and with a
little more depth.
Like just, you know, publish ablog post, create a YouTube

(36:41):
video, embed it in the in thepost, um, get out there, build a
couple backlinks because peoplemight want to link to this
content to build a little ofauthority, maybe be a guest on a
on a podcast or in a webinar orget mentioned in the news or
something talking about thistopic.
Like all of the context thatyou can give around um an

(37:01):
individual or a brand'sexpertise in an area, that's
what's training up and buildingthat trust, um, are all of these
different touch points.
And so that's why this isn'tdone in a silo.
This is done using um really alot of real-world marketing
skills.
So, yeah, for the most part,um, you know, that's been sort
of our approach is like, hey, wewe just have to like dig a

(37:24):
little deeper.
So we can't just like on aclient's website, like, let's
just go blog once a month andpublish the blog and then wipe
our hands of it and call thatlike good to go.
We need to get a little closerto the client and talk about um
how we can really help them bethought leaders in their
industry space.
Like, what else are they doingand making sure all those
signals are out there?
Oh, you're you're an attorneyand you're out there going to a

(37:46):
conference and you're speakingon this topic.
Like, well, let's make surethat's shining through somewhere
on the internet so that the thethis can get picked up and
understood and the contextaround your authority and your
business is really is prominent,like it is in the real world,
but on the online world.
So um, a lot of real worldmarketing is is kind of what's

(38:07):
needed, um, which I findrefreshing.
It's a little harder work, it'sa little less easy to just
check a box and move on.
Um, but it's more, it's moregenuine and it's more valuable
to the end user, the targetaudience.
Um, so there's that piece.
Then there are like new, moretactical type things, like you
can build an LLMS TXT.
I consider that like a tacticalkind of add-on, kind of like

(38:30):
you would have created an XMLsitemap or a robots TXT.
So there are elements of GEOthat are sort of um LLM
specific.
Um, but the the big pictureframe here is that you're trying
to add context and add meaningand build trust in whatever way
makes sense in your businessenvironment.
Um, if you're a local business,a lot of that is building

(38:53):
trust, like with reviews.
Um, more Google Maps reviewsare going to help with the
sentiment that the AI pulls, andyou'll see phrases in the
AI-generated results, like somepeople say, or many people say
about this business, and it'ssynthesizing all of these
reviews.
Um, you know, you can see thatbeing really valuable for local.

Lindsay Halsey (39:12):
So a robots.txt file txt, that can I don't want
to say persuade, but is thatwhat you would go to to try to
make like a direct impact on anyuh Chat GPT or any other LLM
model?

Josh Hall (39:28):
So your robots.txt file is really just a set of
crawler instructions, like howyou want the search engine
spiders or any other crawlersout there to navigate your
website where you don't wantthem to go.
And then I think about your XMLsitemap as being really your
website's resume.
Like here are all the pages,here are when they were last
updated, here's their relativeimportance, um, make it really

(39:50):
easy for the crawlers tonavigate the site and figure out
where the meaning and value is.
This LLMS TXT is a third file.
Um, in WordPress, you cancreate it with a plugin like
Yoast, and it's to help the LLMsum get trained up on their on
the content.
So it's a different format andit's a different file.

(40:11):
Um, but the concept has someparallels.
Like people, some people arelike, oh, don't equate them to a
robots.txt map.
Like, well, there's somesimilarities here.
It's a file that's behind thescenes that no humans are gonna
look at that help to train, inthis case, the LLMs about the
content on your website.
So there are tactics that fitinto GEO that are very specific

(40:36):
to GEO, um, but for the mostpart, it is this real-world like
building of trust and it isthis foundation that's helping
to build the visibility.
I think there's this wholeother world when we talk about
like, well, what are we doing atour agency?
We're communicating this toclients, but then we're also
starting to help them putnumbers behind it and meaning

(40:56):
behind it, which means ourclients use Google or we use
Google Looker Studio for ourreporting.
And so we've layered in, we'vecreated a custom channel in
Google Analytics for trafficfrom AI tools.
So we can actually say, here'show many visitors you're getting
from the chat GPTs of theworld.
Um, and here's what the qualityis, and here's their

(41:18):
conversion, and maybe evenhere's revenue if it's an e-comm
site.
Um, so we're tracking that inanalytics, and then we're
pulling that data through intoour Looker Studio reports and
adding a page in the reportthat's all about your AI
visibility and tracking how muchtraffic are you getting from
AI-based tools and watching itbecome an emerging channel has

(41:39):
been another way of helpingclients kind of understand, um,
in this case, in a quantitativeway, what's happening.
And then, you know, um in thenext month or two, we're gonna
layer in more visibilitytracking for brands.
Um, and how do you actuallytrack your visibility in these
AI-based tools, which is um muchmore complex than just tracking

(42:00):
how much traffic you get, um,but is an emerging space that
software-based tools arestarting to solve for in a way
that's accessible to us asmarketers.

Lindsay Halsey (42:10):
Okay, great.
So I was gonna ask exactly howyou track the GEO side of things
with with AI searches, justbecause it's so different than
setting up keyword research andbeing very very like there's a
very cut-and-dry results whenyou Google something, and that
may vary drastically, you know,like a little bit, but usually
you're gonna see like, allright, you moved up seven spots,

(42:32):
you're on page one finally.

Josh Hall (42:33):
Yeah.

Lindsay Halsey (42:34):
With AI.

Josh Hall (42:35):
It was a simple world, right?
Back then.

Lindsay Halsey (42:37):
Yeah, for anyone who thought it was complex,
welcome.
Welcome to 2025.
So, what how are they trackinglike so so Looker Studio that
will actually track AI searchesand results?
Is that right?
Because I because that variestoo.
Like my chat GPT is going to bedifferent than yours from the
results, depending on our ourhistory and then how they're uh,

(42:59):
I guess how you know whatwhat's prompted.

Josh Hall (43:02):
So Looker Studio actually doesn't track anything
for us.
It's just for us at our agency,it's our it's our reporting
tool.
So it's like an agencyanalytics.
In this case, Looker Studio isfree, which is nice.
Um, but basically we have theselike dashboards or monthly
reports that we're sending toour SEO clients that help them
understand their websiteperformance.

(43:23):
And our reports start on uh thebig picture, like where are you
getting traffic from, what's itdoing across the whole world.
Then we silo in on organicsearch, and that's where you
think about looking at justorganic search sessions and
revenue and traffic, and then welook at things like ranking
data.
What I like about Looker Studiois I can pull data from a lot

(43:43):
of sources.
So I can pull data fromanalytics, I can pull it from
Google Search Console to look atjust SEO.
We use rank tracking in Winter,so I can pull that in, and I
can surface it all in onereport.
And so what we've been focusingon right now in the here and
now is the thing we canrelatively easily accomplish
right now is telling clientsthis is how many visits you're

(44:04):
getting from Chat GPT.
This is how many visits you'regetting from Perplexity.
And the data in our case iscollected in Google Analytics,
but then we're displaying it toclients using Looker Studio.
You can display it to themusing Analytics as well.
The next phase of this is tosay, okay, well, that's great
for when you win the click,right?
Google Analytics, it's onlygoing to look at it when you

(44:27):
actually win the session.
So, what about how do we trackjust being included in the
conversation, being mentioned inChat GPT?
Even if I don't win the click,that's that's what we're trying
to help our clients do, right?
Is build that visibility insomething where they never
actually end up touching thewebsite.
So that's kind of the nextthing that we're trying to solve

(44:49):
for before the end of the yearfor our clients.
And um, and that is the spacethat is emerging very quickly in
in like what tools are outthere to help you monitor like
brand mentions and visibility,et cetera.
Um, and we haven't personallyat our agency sunk our teeth

(45:09):
into like this is the tool we'regonna use, and here's how we're
gonna integrate it.
We're still in that exploratorymode.
Um, but I'm telling myself thateven if we change our tune uh
in 2026, that by the end of2025, we'd like to have layered
something in there um aroundthis kind of idea of brand
visibility, brand dimensions umin the AI world and providing

(45:32):
and surfacing up some data forclients there.

Lindsay Halsey (45:34):
Does Google so Google Analytics is able to
track ChatGPT?
Is it um is it able to do theother ones as well, as long as
they're all open source orpublic at least?

Josh Hall (45:44):
Yeah, so any traffic that comes through to your
website, assuming someoneaccepts the cookies, um, can get
tracked.
And Google can tell you itright now buckets um traffic
from like a chat GPT underreferral as a as a kind as a
channel.
So Google has built in likewe're gonna lump all of these
together and call these socialchannels.
We're gonna lump all of these,this traffic together and call

(46:07):
it organic search, or this alltogether and call it paid
search.
Well, there right now in GoogleAnalytics isn't a channel for
AI.
So right now, your traffic fromChat GPT, Perplexity, Cloud, et
cetera, they're all coming inas referral, as the as the
medium, and then the source isthe name of the website.
So what we did in our clientsanalytics, and you can do today,

(46:31):
is create a custom channel thatis all things AI.
It literally only takes likefive minutes to do, and it works
back in time, but it lumps allof the traffic from AI tools
together in your analytics sothat you can look at them
collectively instead of havingto be like kind of parsing it
out under the referral side ofthings, if that makes sense.

(46:54):
So this all sounds complicated,but again, it's like a little
like five-minute task inanalytics that that gathers up
all the AI traffic into onechannel that you can then tell
your clients, you got 50 visitsfrom AI tools like Chat GPT, and
they stayed on site for threeminutes.
This is this is emerging.

(47:14):
This is exciting.
Like a month ago, you only had10 or whatever it might be.

Lindsay Halsey (47:20):
Gotcha.
Okay.
I wonder if that works onFathom.
I'm using Fathom Analytics.

Josh Hall (47:24):
Good question.
I don't know the answer onFathom.
Um, and I mean the traffic isin there, it's coming in as a
referral, but how to group it upin a way that you can call it
its own channel.
Um, I haven't researched thatone.

Lindsay Halsey (47:37):
On the to-do list.
All right.

Josh Hall (47:39):
Yeah.
And it could change, right?

Lindsay Halsey (47:42):
It is funny though, because uh there's this
framework, I guess I'll call ita framework.
I talk about it in my businesscourse, which in my business
course it was all about sales,which is to connect, converse,
then convert.
But another frame on this idea,which applies to SEO, it
applies to any sort ofmarketing, it applies to sales,
is uh basically uh eithervisibility or awareness.

(48:04):
Like like you said, withChatGPT, just getting you seen,
like getting a brand recognizedout there.
Typically you do that on aGoogle search, but now it's
largely through any of these AImodels.
And then there's engagement ofsome sort, and then there's
conversion.
So it still all goes back toconversion.
Um so it's like visibility, yousee something, whether it's on
social media or chat GPT orGoogle, you engage with it, you

(48:27):
go to the blog post, you sign upfor a freebie, you actually do
something, you follow a socialmedia page, and then conversion,
you purchase or you book acall.
So I just like that idea.
I think it's a good reminderthat with like all ever no,
regardless of the changes or anyevolution on all this stuff, it
still boils down to awareness,engagement, conversion, or

(48:49):
connect, converse, convert, anyone of those.

Josh Hall (48:52):
Totally agree.
Yeah, that's really wellstated.
Yeah, in a lot of this, we'retalking about these new things,
and yet the the fundamentals andlike these frameworks um are
still holding true in thismoment.
And they help us to understandthe complexity that's out there
and then to ultimately be ableto explain it to our clients.

Lindsay Halsey (49:13):
Yeah, well, gosh, uh this has been great,
Lindsay.
We covered a lot in a shortamount of time here.
Uh I really appreciate youbeing transparent with what you
and your agency are doing.
Um, one final question for youas we get ready to wrap this up,
but where should folks go toconnect with you and uh to see
what you guys are up to?

Josh Hall (49:29):
Yeah, check us out.
Um, our agency is webshine, um,webshine.com.
And uh and you can always reachout to me at lindsay at
webshine.com.
I'm most responsive over email.
Um, so uh feel free to drop mea line if you have any questions
or there's anything I can do tohelp.

Lindsay Halsey (49:45):
Well, and um talk about like building
referral partners being onpodcasts is a great way to uh to
build referral partners.
And for folks who are like,thank God I don't want to do
this, hire Lindsay in the team.
Because you guys do white labelstuff, right?

Josh Hall (49:58):
We do white label.
We do uh yeah, a lot of directuh working with clients.
And uh and so, yeah, and thenwe also just have a referral
program.
So some uh some web designersand agencies refer their SEO or
Google Ads clients to us, andthen um we we give them 10% back
um as kind of a referralcommission.
And uh and you know, whitelabel is great, but a lot of

(50:20):
this you can see is workingreally closely with clients and
communicating well.
And so one of the challenges Ithink in that white label
dynamic is you you have a like alittle bit of a communication
train.
And so um, yeah, our referralprogram has been pretty popular
um this year, just knowing thatum we can work directly with
clients and um and then throw athrow a recurring thanks um you

(50:44):
know back to back to whoeverreferred us.

Lindsay Halsey (50:46):
Awesome.
Well, my last question is whatare what's one thing you're
doing different in 2025 withSEO?

Josh Hall (50:57):
That is a really good question.
Um, I think we've been thelike, and this is not a big
thing, but just um it kind ofjust comes top of mind is really
trying to help clients morewith their reviews, um, getting
more reviews, consistentlyresponding to reviews, and going
beyond just reviews on GoogleMaps.
So this has been somethingwe've always helped clients

(51:19):
with, um, but we're reallyseeing added value in this sort
of external trust buildingpiece.
Um, and so that's been one areathat I think we've we've been
placing um a greater emphasis interms of kind of tactical work
that we're working with clients.
Um but I'd say the overarchingthing that we've been doing this
year is um communicating morethan ever.

(51:41):
Um, because withoutcommunication, you sort of stand
for clients to not understandhow this world is evolving.
Are you staying current, etcetera?
Um, so yeah, the communicationpiece number one, but then some
tactical things like reviews umhave been in the mix.

Lindsay Halsey (51:56):
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much, Lindsay.
This has been great.
A little bit of a masterclasshere.
Uh, but uh yeah, awesome tohear about where you guys are at
with the agency, how you'rerolling this stuff out to
clients.
Uh and luckily, I don't feeloverwhelmed.
If anything, I feel good aboutlike, okay, it's it's still the
basics, it's still thefoundation, it's still the
fundamentals.
You can go way further if youwant to.

(52:18):
Uh, and obviously, you know,this changes per client, like
you said.
But um, yeah, this has beengreat.
I feel good.
I feel good about SEO.
I was a little nervous.
I was gonna be like, okay,where, you know, I've like a
Michelle just did a livetraining in pro on AI search.
We had this conversation.
I've talked to some otherSEOers recently, and luckily
everyone has left me feelinglike, okay, you know, AI didn't

(52:38):
destroy the SEO industry like itwas doomed, uh, like everyone
said it was last year.
So feeling good.
We're good.

Josh Hall (52:45):
Good.
Yep, and that's how I'm feelingtoo.
And uh, and I think that's whatwe can share with our clients
um so that they kind of knowwhat's going on now and and uh
can rest assured that we're ontop of it, that we're evolving,
and uh, and that they're in goodhands.

Lindsay Halsey (52:58):
That's wise counsel, by the way, because you
never know when a client'sgonna see some article that's
like SEO is dead.

Josh Hall (53:04):
Yeah, they're gonna see that or they're gonna get
pitched and you could lose, youknow, you have a client you've
been working with forever, andthey're like, well, I'm gonna
switch because this client, thisagency is also offering GEO.
And you're like, oh, wait, butwe're we're already handling
that.
I just didn't communicate it toyou.
Um, I I know in our agency lifethere's nothing I've felt more
of a failure in than momentswhere our client's been like,

(53:26):
oh, we're gonna go hire thisother agency because they offer
Google Ads services.
I'm like, oh, we offer Googleads.
How have we like been workingwith you on an ongoing basis?
And you didn't even know likeour suite of services and and
things like that.
So yeah, it's a it's a goodtime to lean into clients.
And my favorite way isn't, hey,let's talk about your SEO.
It's let's talk about what'sgoing well in your business,

(53:48):
just like a general check-in.
Um, and then you kind of wanderyour way into um into getting
to a place to provide thateducation and then potentially
an upsell.
Um, right?
You may have some clients thataren't investing in these things
that need um that need to bethinking about it.

Lindsay Halsey (54:04):
Boom.
No better way to wrap that oneup.
Well, thank you, Lindsay.
Until the next one.
Let's see how SEO looks in2026.
Next round.

Josh Hall (54:13):
Thanks so much, Josh.

Lindsay Halsey (54:16):
So there we go, my friend.
I hope you enjoyed this oneagain from somebody who is
literally off, you know, on thefront lines, boots on the
ground, implementing this.
There are still a lot of grayarea.
There's still a lot of thingsup in the air and a lot of
things that are gonna continueto change.
But I hope that seeing whatLindsay and her agency have done
to keep their clients informedand up to date on everything, I

(54:37):
hope you apply that as well.
Even if you're not a full-blownSEO agency, even if it's just a
part of what you do, I thinkit's really important to relay
some of what hopefully youlearned here to them.
So just remember this podcast,you can use it as an upsell for
your clients.
Let them know you're listeningto this, you're staying fresh on
what's going on in the world ofweb design and SEL, and

(54:59):
hopefully it helps you craftyour SEO offers as well.
So hope you enjoyed this one.
Stay subscribed.
Again, the show notes for thisepisode are going to be found at
Joshell.co slash 407.
We'll have links to everythingthat we covered here with
Lindsay, including a link to heruh agency site, which is
website.com.
Big thanks to Lindsay.
Big thanks to you forlistening, and I will see you on
the next episode.