408 - Running Your Design Business as a New Parent with Jay Clouse

Jay Clouse is best known for two things:

1. Being the founder of Creator Science, and being one of the most prominent thought-leaders in the content creator space
2. Being the first 4x guest on the Web Design Business Podcast

Jay and I connected early in his journey into the world of courses, coaching, podcasting, memberships and content creation and over the last 5 years, I’ve seen him excel in all areas.

So much so, that I’m a paying member of his community “The Lab” where I keep tabs on all things socials, content creation, podcasting, memberships and more.

But a big shift happened for Jay last year when he and his wife had their first little cuddly Clouse. So for this chat, we focus on that – specifically what he’s learned in growing and maintaining his business with harsher time and bandwidth constraints as a new parent.

Enjoy! And if you’re this season as well, just know, the sleep deprivation DOES get better 🙂

Head to the show notes to get all links and resources we mentioned, along with a full transcription of this episode at joshhall.co/408

Episode Transcript

Jay Clouse (00:00):
You get to where we are by saying yes to a lot of
things in the beginning.
And you're like just beggingfor opportunity.
And then you get to this pointwhere you've got to start saying
no.
And it's not you got to say nonine out of ten times.
It's like you got to say noninety-nine out of a hundred
times.
It's like a significant levelof no.

(00:21):
You know, that's one yes versusten yeses.
So it's it's really hard.
Um and I feel like the sameperson, my brain hasn't changed
that much.
I still get the same levels oflike, ooh, when opportunities
come in.
Or my my wife and I joke, westill remember being like super

(00:42):
broke.
And we would like see helpwanted signs at the grocery
store and be like, well, if allelse fails, there's that.
But we still do that.
Like we see help-wanted signsat a grocery store, and we're
like, I wonder how much thatpays.
I wonder if I have time forthat.
What?
What is going on in my brainright now?

Josh Hall (01:00):
Welcome to the web design business podcast with
your host, Josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
Hello, my friend.
It's great to have you here.
And we are gonna have some funin this one because we are
talking with none other than JayClaust of the brand Creator

(01:22):
Science.
Now, if you are a human on theinternet creating content,
you've probably run across Jayat some point.
His brand is called CreatorScience, which is his podcast,
his newsletter, both of which Iwould recommend tuning into.
And he also runs a communitymembership called The Lab, which
I'm a paying member of, where Ipersonally stay up to date on

(01:44):
all things social media, contentcreation, podcasting,
communities, memberships, all ofthe above.
Now, what's interesting aboutJay is we've been friends for
over five years now.
And I saw him go from justbuilding his little online brand
to becoming one of the mostprominent thought leaders in the
industry today.
But a lot has changed over thepast year, in particular because

(02:06):
he had a little baby, a littlecuddly Klaus.
And in this conversation, wereally dig into how he is
managing his business, how he'srunning it, running it, and what
he's learned by being aparentpreneur and hopes to help
you as well.
Even if you don't have kiddosnow, or maybe not yet, there's
still some very valuable lessonsin here with just how to

(02:28):
balance your business and yourtime and set priorities and all
of those really important thingswhen it comes to
sustainability.
So the unsexy title for thisepisode is How to Be Sustainable
as an Entrepreneur.
And without further ado, here'smy good friend Jay.
We're gonna dive into this one.
And uh he is also our firstfour-peat guest, which means he
is the most repeated guest onthe podcast to date.

(02:50):
So cheers to Jay.
Cheers to you.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation.
Head the show notes at thisone, which are gonna be found at
joshhall.co slash 408 to getall the links that we mentioned.
Without further ado, here'sJay.
What about uh tell me aboutwhen it comes to creating

(03:12):
content, especially as much asyou're doing?
I think I think I've heard youtalk about reducing the barrier
to entry or just making iteasier, making it as much like
it's easiest to just like yousaid, flip a switch and go.
Uh, have you found yourproductivity with content has
helped with the new office?

Jay Clouse (03:32):
Yes.
Um, especially in in videoform, because everything's set
up.
I mean, like there's there'sstill some friction.
Like I just recorded uh uh aninterview for my podcast before
we hopped on here.
And from a perspective ofredundancy, but then also video
quality, I now record locally tothe camera as well as

(03:53):
Riverside.
Riverside records locally toyour machine, but it's still
recording 1080.
I can record locally to thecamera 4K.
And so I record 4K from thecamera, uh, use the Riverside
audio, but then we've got toapply like color correction to
the raw recording, and thenwe've got to sync up the audio
and video.
So to do things at like thelevel that I really want to do,

(04:15):
there's still some friction.
But if I wanted to sit down andsay, like, hey, I just want to
rip out a 60-second story tocamera that I can then put into
short form vertical videoformat, super plug and play,
easy to do.
I can sit down and do it, andit looks great.

Josh Hall (04:29):
Yeah.

Jay Clouse (04:30):
I get people that are like, is that a virtual
background?
And I say, no.
Like, yeah, this opens.
This is a locker, this hasstuff in it, and actually it's
very functional.
The lockers that are off screendown there, I'm storing all my
stuff in.
So it is genuinely a dream.
And I have a second desk overhere that's uh a standing desk
with a walking pad.
So when I'm not recording, Ican still be in here and like

(04:53):
get steps in.
It's it's it's the best, man.
Yeah, it's awesome.

Josh Hall (04:57):
Well, it's a representation of um, not that
you were ever not professional,but just how professional you
and your brand has become.
And I gotta say publicly, Jay,like it's freaking awesome,
dude, to see your trajectory andyour success over the past,
well, five plus years since I'veknown you.
2020 is when we connectedoriginally.
So um, yeah, man, it's justfreaking awesome to see hard

(05:21):
work pay off.
So I'm thrilled for you,thrilled for your family.
It was awesome having you as aspeaker for our event this year,
uh, for the first WDP con.
And uh you are, I was looking,I think you're my first
four-peat guest on the podcast.

Jay Clouse (05:38):
Let's go.
So I love that.
I'll be your first five Petetoo.
But in SNL tradition, I expecton the fifth appearance to get a
jacket with a number five onit.
It would go nice in yourlocker, wouldn't it?
Deal.
Five timers club right in thelocker.

Josh Hall (05:52):
Deal.
Uh it's on record.
Um, but yeah, man, I'm thrilledto see hard work pay off, dude.
It's really, really cool.
I I mean a lot of my audienceis very familiar with you now,
even though most of our webdesigners at heart they're
entrepreneurs, and um, I've beenreally clear about who I trust
in the industry to learn fromand see what's working.

(06:12):
And you're at the top of thelist, man.
So um, yeah, I don't know whatto say to kick off other than
it's freaking awesome to see allyou've done.

Jay Clouse (06:20):
Well, I am flying high.
Thank you.
Um, and remind me after this,uh, we just put on the calendar,
we're doing an in-person eventuh for the lab in November for
dinner.
10 course dinner.
10 course dinner.
Oh, have you been to Isla herein Columbus yet?
Oh, I've heard good thingsthough.
You're gonna love it.

Josh Hall (06:41):
Is that did your wife take you here for your
birthday?
Is that the one?
Okay.
All right, I'm in.
It's gonna be great.
Yeah, one course dinner.
I'm appetizer.
I'm in.
So count me in, dude.
Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, no, it's it's been coolbeing a part of your membership
too.
Uh, I wish I could have moretime to invest in it, but um, we
are parentpreneurs.

(07:01):
I actually wanted to start withthat.
I know we were talking someriverside specifics.
I want to get to that, butfirst, I want to ask you about
parenthood.
How what have you learned aboutyour first year as a
parentpreneur, good or bad?

Jay Clouse (07:15):
Well, being a parent is like the best thing that's
ever happened to me.
Let's start there.
Um, it's also the mostdestructive thing that's
happened to the business.
Like my way of working has justbeen destroyed, you know,
because leading into uh birthbirth of our daughter last year,

(07:37):
I didn't have margin in my day,really.
Like this actually goes back toCOVID.
Uh during COVID, wheneverything went from in-person
to virtual, all of my work alsowent in-person to virtual.
And as a highly efficientperson, I was just packing my
calendar with anything because Ican go from meeting to meeting
if I'm staying in the samechair.
So for the last like fiveyears, my way of working was

(08:00):
just to pack my calendar, packmy time, and get as much output
as possible.
And uh bringing a small humanin the world, that person not
only like needs me, but I wantto devote as much time as
possible now to being a dad.

(08:21):
So where does that time comefrom?
Uh I am still working throughthat because in the beginning it
was like, I can just do all thethings, I can just do more,
like just bring it on, waking upearlier, working later.
And that is not sustainable andreally has been tough this year
to try to just maintain thesame level of output with less

(08:44):
time.
Uh, it doesn't work.
So I'm I'm really having to dosome tough prioritization and
make some changes because I alsoembarked on a uh the start of a
book this year, and that's amonstrous project, even if it's
a complete failure, a monstrousproject.

(09:04):
So I'm saying I didn't haveenough time before the baby to
continue doing what I was doing,but I'm gonna do that plus the
baby plus a book.
Doesn't work.
So I've really had to reworksome things, and I'm still very
much figuring that out.

Josh Hall (09:20):
What uh what's gone well?
What was what's something thatyou've loved about it or has uh
you know been a net positive foryou?

Jay Clouse (09:29):
Uh it's it's just brought a lot of um clarity to
what matters and what doesn'tmatter.
Like uh I still get stressedabout certain things within the
business, but it it's my my baselevel stress tolerance has
risen.
Uh my tolerance for stuff thatdoesn't matter has decreased.

(09:49):
My ability to weed things outand say no to things has
increased.
Um and I feel like there'sgenerally a larger purpose to
what I'm doing.
Uh and it now sort of centersmore of my purpose on the
family, which sometimes Istruggle with because it's like

(10:09):
the the business will capturemore value when it creates more
value for more people.
But my purpose is so anchoredin family that sometimes those
things feel a little bit atodds, you know what I mean?
Uh so I'm figuring I'm figuringthat out.
Um but yeah, it's it's it'sjust brought a different

(10:31):
appreciation to time.
And when I'm not actuallyworking and I'm actually
spending time with my daughter,uh the way that she moves about
and views the world, it's justit's so refreshing.
It's so awesome.
Uh there's there's like nobetter antidepressant than
hugging your kid.

Josh Hall (10:53):
There it is.
Clip it.
That was it right there.
Well said, Jay.
Um it's funny because like thetime issue, I would love to say
it gets better, but I actuallyfeel like we're in the hardest
uh it's been for us at leastwith three kids under seven.
Of course, you know, but withBria, my oldest being special
needs, it's a it's a level ofcare that is far greater than
than our other two.

(11:14):
But um it is that what you hiton of like the the weed out
tolerance and how easy it is tosay no to stuff.
I found myself ramping up onthat even more so.
I've been pretty good at thatover the years, but even more so
now it's like most everything'sa no.
Um it's like maybe 10% at most.

(11:35):
Uh maybe not even that is a isa pretty much immediate no.
It's kind of hard to get to, Ithink, as a people pleaser and
as an entrepreneur who justlikes to do stuff and likes to
get the brand out there.
I think you and I are veryalike in that.
But I I think it's um the ideaof like signal versus noise.
You've probably heard that onentrepreneurial circles,
basically just priority, likewhat's gonna move the needle.

(11:56):
That's something I've reallytried to hone in on this year.
And with that limited time,like just to only focus on
things that are gonna move theneedle.
And it kills me to have aninbox that's not at zero, but
we're just we're there.
Oh, yeah.

Jay Clouse (12:10):
That's that is out the window for sure.
I I'm no longer doing anyspeaking.
Um uh after this recording, I'mnot doing interviews for the
foreseeable future.
Actually, somebody recentlyasked me to like do a virtual
event with them, and I was like,hey, I am on a no rule right
now.

(12:30):
Um, it's someone that I knewpersonally.
So I was like, my instinct isto say no to this, but how easy
can you make this for me?
Like, I need to do no prep.
I need to show up.
And he's like, Yeah, yeah,yeah, no problem.
So I said, okay, that's great.
Two weeks later, I'm gettingemails from his team like, Hey,
can you suggest some topics forus to cover?
And can you help us plan?
I'm like, nope, I'm out.

(12:52):
This is and I've I've neverI've never broken a commitment
like that before.
But I was just like, this isn'twhat I signed up for.
My instinct said in the firstplace, I shouldn't do this.
We're several weeks out, I'mgoing to break this off because
I know I'm gonna show up andregret having said yes.
I just I just gotta say no.
I gotta say no to as much aspossible right now.

(13:14):
And the thing is, like, um Ifeel like our psychology updates
slower than our reality.
And and this the way I meanthat is like you get to where we
are by saying yes to a lot ofthings in the beginning, and
you're like just begging foropportunity, and then you get to

(13:35):
this point where you've got tostart saying no, and it's not
you gotta say no nine out of tentimes, it's like you gotta say
no 99 out of a hundred times,it's like a significant level of
no, you know, that's one yesversus ten yeses, so it's it's
really hard.
Um and I feel like the sameperson, my brain hasn't changed

(13:57):
that much.
I still get the same levels oflike, ooh, when opportunities
come in, or my my wife and Ijoke, we still remember being
like super broke, and we wouldlike see help-wanted signs at
the grocery store and be like,well, if all else fails, there's
that.
But we still do that.
Like we see help-wanted signsat a grocery store, and we're

(14:19):
like, I wonder how much thatpays.
I wonder if I have time forthat.
What?
What is going on in my brainright now?
Uh, it's it's wild.

Josh Hall (14:27):
Well, I appreciate all that, man.
It's uh it's gratifying.
It's um it makes me feel notthat I've ever felt alone in
this, but I do think it's it'stricky because as entrepreneurs,
we tend to see all of theoutside things on all of our
social media channels.
This kind of thing isn't talkedabout too much, I feel like
broadly.
So I do like kind of drill intothis idea of priority, and then

(14:49):
especially when it comes tokids, because the reality is you
can base it around time andlike just more time with the
kids.
But what I've found is evenmore important is like presence.
Like we've all had theexperience.
I shared this recently in anin-person event that you and I
were at, but there was that timewhere I was doing like four

(15:09):
things at once.
I was multitasking, watching ajackets game, hanging out with
my baby, listening to my wife.
And I didn't know what wasgoing on in the game.
I missed time with my daughter,I did not hear what my wife
said.
And that idea of like presenceand and being able to quiet the
ongoing elevator home as anentrepreneur is is, I think has

(15:29):
gotten harder as the businesshas grown.
And I just know personally,that's kind of where I'm at is
like I've done pretty good atallotting the time, but now I'm
trying to do better at liketruly being present when I'm
super hard.

Jay Clouse (15:41):
Super hard for me too.
Um and for in fact, for a longtime, when people would ask me,
like, what's it like having adaughter?
And I was like, man, my time iswrecked.
But the nice thing is Iactually had more time to think
because there are a lot of likemindless activities, especially
when she was like a slug, youknow, where it's like holding
the baby, rocking the baby,changing the baby, feeding the
baby, where it's like, I can'tbe at the keyboard right now.

(16:04):
Not that I even really want tobe, but I do have time to think.
And so it was like, okay, I canwhen I get back to the desk, I
have a plan and I can gostraight into execution.
The thinking has been done.
But as she's getting older andshe is more present and she has
more like thoughts and she'sdoing stuff, I don't want to not
be there mentally, you know?

(16:25):
So it's like not only do I haveless working execution time,
but I have less thinking timetoo.
So it's it's uh it's a doublewhammy, and I've had to further
let things go.
Yeah.

Josh Hall (16:43):
I think it's good though.
I mean, um, I know we're notbeing negative about this.
It's just the harsh reality ofbalancing parenthood and
entrepreneurship, especiallybecause you and I are both very
active as dads.
It'd be one thing if you didn'treally care that much and you
just like you're working 70hours a week regardless, which I
do think was much more commonfor entrepreneurs and
generations, you know, past us.
But I think it's honestly, asI'm thinking about it, I feel

(17:07):
like it's almost not needed formost people, but I think it's
really good for folks who arefamily-minded because as you
know, like if you have all thetime in the world, you just fill
it with more work and you justtake more opportunities and do
new things and launch newproducts.
So I almost feel like you'reyou're and I personalities, and
a lot of the folks I see in WebDesigner Pro who are the high
performer go-getters, we almostneed something to like reel us

(17:31):
in and make us slow down andlike realign and look at our
priorities.

Jay Clouse (17:36):
For sure.
I mean, if we had a nine tofive, hopefully we have
transparency around what successin our role looks like.
And so we know if we are beingsuccessful, and if so, we can be
done with work for that periodof time.
And our bosses are off theclock afterwards, and they're

(17:57):
probably leaving us alone at inevenings and weekends.
But the the reality of anentrepreneur is in the
beginning, you're justscratching and clawing to get
any traction, make ends meet.
So nights and weekends are fairgame.
And you you have a little bitof a I don't know if it's a
scarcity mindset, but it's it'suh kind of like a survival

(18:19):
mindset, you know, and when youryour feeling of survival is
threatened, uh it actuallyeliminates your ability to have
empathy.
Like you you can only thinkabout surviving.
And it's it's hard to deprogramthat once the business has
become more successful becauseyou don't have anybody telling

(18:42):
you like it's okay, you you'llbe okay.
The the safety net, you don'tknow how low it it it is that's
gonna catch you.
Like, is it gonna catch you?
Is there one?
If I don't work tonight, thisweekend, if I don't do this
thing that I think I should,like, will it be okay?
It's hard to know, especiallyif you if your business is built

(19:03):
around net new customers.
You're always like, Where arethey gonna come from?
They gotta come from somewhere,and I should probably be doing
something to influence that.
Um it's the nice thing about amembership model because at
least to some degree that isrecurring.
Of course, there's churn andwhatever else, but at least to
some degree, like there's somereasonable expectation there.

(19:26):
Um but yeah, I think I thinkit's just an extra hard thing
for entrepreneurs and who do youtalk to about it?
Hopefully, you have a greatrelationship with your spouse,
you can talk to them about it.
But you also know in my case,uh my capacity to hold stress
and know that it's temporary ishigher than my wife's because

(19:48):
I've been doing theentrepreneurship thing longer.
So if I'm stressed and shenotices it and she asks, what's
going on in my brain, I couldtell her, but it's gonna have a
much more potent effect on herpsyche than mine because I know
this will pass.
Uh and so a lot of times Idon't share the full details of
that.
And that's a hard thing to justsit with and act like

(20:12):
everything is fine.
I'm fine.
Uh, but that's that's what wesigned up for.

Josh Hall (20:18):
Yeah, it's like a muscle that is trained over the
years, isn't it?
To where like, yeah, it's likea uh there's a tolerance in like
hardships, good times and badtimes.
I get less excited aboutawesome stuff and less down
about negative stuff.
I've kind of um dulled my mysense of like the roller coaster

(20:38):
feelings, which I think isactually needed.
I mean, I still get pumped upand animated, but um it is
interesting when I think whenpeople I found this with a
couple of the members of Pro whoare in their first one to two
years of business, like thefirst couple bad client
interactions are justdevastating.
They take it personally,they're in a depression, they're

(20:59):
just crust, they're thinkingabout quitting.
But then I talk to them a yearor two later, and they're just
like a different personality.
I mean, it's literally like a,you know, it's like a it's it's
like a war veteran who goes totheir first couple tours and
they come back and stuff rubsoff differently.
Uh, and I found that to be thecase in entrepreneurship too.
So how long do you think thatit's exposure?

Jay Clouse (21:20):
You know, like the first time you're exposed to
something, it's shocking, scary,hard.
And then over time it getseasier.
I I can name like 10 differentexperiences that that has been
true just in this business inthe last few years.
Uh, you the things that werehard get easier.
And in fact, if you're notfeeling any level of discomfort,

(21:40):
that's probably a bad sign thatyou're you're not pushing and
improving and kind of at risk ofbeing disrupted.
So it's it's tough.
You know, you you said like thethe lows aren't as low, the
highs aren't as high.
Uh that kind of leveling out ofemotion, I've 1000% been there.

(22:03):
I can tap into that at anytime.
But I also question like, isthat optimal?
Like, is that the best way toexperience day-to-day life?
Like, I want the highs to be ashigh as possible, but I can't
allow that without also allowingsuper low lows.

(22:25):
And it's it's a pick yourpoison sort of thing, but it's
that's a good point.
You can't just take off thebottom.

Josh Hall (22:31):
Yeah.
I guess I should I shouldclarify in that and saying that
as you said that, Jay, I thoughtabout the highest high I've had
in years has been the the eventthat I had earlier this year.
And I know you were only a partof the workshop briefly, but
like it was truly what happenedaround the event with our
socials and the one-on-ones,just like the one that you had
recently.

(22:52):
I mean, that was like that wasa high, high, high, but it was
new, new, new.
I'm curious when we do theevent next year, what's that
high gonna feel like?
It'll feel different becauseit's not the first time, but I
do anticipate it to be reallyhigh.
But there's a good challenge tolike make sure that I'm not
getting complacent orcomfortable in those wins and
those high feelings, too.

(23:12):
Um, it's a lot easier now, youknow, if somebody has a support
request or isn't happy withsomething, I'm like, oh, that I
don't think twice about it now.
Used to you lose sleep over ityears ago.
Now I don't even doesn't phaseme.
But good challenge to rememberto not get complacent with the
wins and the highs.

Jay Clouse (23:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm just thinking a lot about Idon't know how like uh
competitive your space is.
Uh I do know that like just theonline business space
generally, super competitive asfar as like where you can play
in the content world.
And I I feel a lot of pressureall the time to disrupt myself

(23:52):
or like continue to elevatemyself or get lost in the wash,
you know.
And that's probably a story Itell myself to some degree.
I think it serves me and hasserved the business to some
degree, but also probably comesat some cost psychologically.
But it's uh it is somethingthat I think about quite a bit.

Josh Hall (24:12):
Well, let's talk, let's switch gears and talk
about content.
We'll go from baby chub tocontent.
Um we were talking aboutRiverside before this, about you
know, the clipping features andthe snippets and just some of
the tool sets now.
What are you doing to makecontent easier for you?
We kicked off with your studio.
It sounds like that's helped toto some degree with just making

(24:32):
it, you know, just an easierprocess without you tinkering
with everything.
What else are you doing to makecontent easier, especially
since you have much less time?

Jay Clouse (24:42):
You know what I've been thinking about lately.
The easiest content has feltover the last couple months.
Writing has felt the easiest,and I can name like the essays
where it did feel the easiest,and it came from a place of I
got something to say.
You know what I mean?
So I'm trying to, I'm trying tolike create more opportunities

(25:05):
where I'm the type of guy thatjust doesn't have an opinion
most of the time unless pressed.
Uh, and if I do have anopinion, I typically don't just
share it unless asked, which isnot what platforms want.
They want you to have strongopinions constantly and share
them.

Josh Hall (25:23):
Can I share a quick story on that?
Please.
Because, you know, I'll postsomething about like a really
meaty tip that helps people makesix figures and it gets like
nothing.
Whereas, like, you know,picture one of my Goldens goes
wild.
So there's that kind of thing.
But something I experimentedwith, and it was one of those,
because I'm kind of wired thesame way to where like I'm not
one just hermosy it and justpost what I'm thinking at 2 a.m.

(25:46):
or whatever.
But I did one time, and I justhad this off-the-wall thought.
It may be horrible, but it'sjust something that I notice
with people that I oversee,which is this thought was like,
however many business books youread, you could probably make
about $10,000 to $100,000 inrevenue over your lifespan based

(26:06):
off of that.
So if you read 10 businessbooks, I think you could
probably make a million dollars.
If you read 20 business books,you can probably make 2 million.
I posted that on threads when Ijust dove in and just tried it
out.
And I woke up and it was like,and it was the most negative
social media experience that Iever had.
And I actually took the postdown mainly because I'm not, I'm

(26:28):
not averted to conflict.
Well, number one, I didn't havethe time.
I know myself, and I was like,if I go down this rabbit hole,
it's gonna just be a huge chunkof waste of time.
But I looked at the brand andI'm like, this isn't what I want
people to follow me for andsee, and then have that
experience.
So it was just kind of a it wasa real world example of what
you just said, which is likewhen you do dip into that world,

(26:49):
it is what they like.
I I can go viral on socialmedia, but it's not the end game
that I want.

Jay Clouse (26:56):
Yeah, it's it's a really uh emotionally trying
experience to have anything getoutside of your typical bubble,
you know, because like you startgetting into corners of the
internet, you're like, I don'teven know this corner of the
internet existed, and I don'twant to be here.

Josh Hall (27:15):
Uh that was literally my feeling.
You just encapsulated, Jay, thefeeling that I had when I woke
up that next day and saw like aton of, I mean, there was like,
I don't know, maybe 20 or 30comments just from the night
before, which is way more than Itypically get.
And I was like, oh God, I don'twant to do that.
This is not what I signed upfor.

Jay Clouse (27:32):
When you when you grow slowly and historically
from like a word of mouthperspective, there's a uh
there's a warmth and um abenefit of the doubt that the
people you reach give you.
And when you just start gettingin front of strangers on any
social platform, you not only doyou not get the benefit of the

(27:53):
doubt, you get like the polaropposite.
You get like extra doubt onyour motives, and uh it's just
like uh I didn't ask for this.
So um, yeah, but like I said,as far as creating content goes,
it's always easier for me tocreate from a place of not of I
should make something, but Igotta say something.

(28:14):
And so I'm trying to find thealignment and the way to like
consistently create the theenvironment where I'm coming up
with things that I genuinelywant to say, uh, because it just
flows when that happens.

Josh Hall (28:30):
When you have something that you're like, I
gotta say this, or people needto hear this, is that going out
to mostly a warm audience, or doyou find that that is
attracting more cold audience?

Jay Clouse (28:40):
What I care about right now, well, I mean, if we
just go like level by level,what I care about the most is
email subscribers, people whoare reading my emails because
they've chosen to read theemails.
Uh right next to that, liketier, if that's tier 1A, tier 1b
is the podcast, the RSSpodcast.
And then uh probably on top ofthat is YouTube.

(29:02):
YouTube.
So what I'm thinking about moreand more is I want to double
down on long-form writing for alot of reasons we can talk about
if you want.
And so now the game is how do Imore effectively turn that
writing into the backbone of thepodcast, audio and or video,
and uh then effectively shortform so that I can basically

(29:25):
focus the 80-20 of my generativecreative work into long form
writing and then deriveeverything else from that.

Josh Hall (29:35):
What's the difference between the style of writing
you're doing without gettinginto specifics for the book
versus your newsletters?
I'm also curious how the heckyou do one to two newsletters a
week and wrote a, you know, areyou finished with the book?

Jay Clouse (29:50):
Oh, not even close.
I have I have the book proposalin finished form, but now I
have notes from my agent beforewe go to the marketplace.

Josh Hall (29:58):
So, how yeah, how are you balancing writing?
a full book and doing two notwo two newsletters a week.
That's still your cadence now,right?
Two.

Jay Clouse (30:04):
Yeah, at least one.
Sometimes two.
A lot of times the secondnewsletter is is like uh there's
a sponsor obligation, so now Ihave to write a second
newsletter.
Um it's it would be good for mein the business to write a
second, but when I don't have asponsor obligation, oftentimes I
won't because creating twonewsletters a week is hard.
As far as like how it goes, thethe real bottleneck is just the

(30:31):
thing, like the idea of theessay.
And so the later in the week itcomes to finding the idea that
I want to write about, thecloser I am to the deadline of
writing the thing.
So the magic is when I havesomething that again I'm I'm
like I got to write about this.
Example being we saw these newuh AI short form video apps,

(30:53):
Sora and uh Vibes and I hadsomething to say.
And I ripped that out in like20 minutes.
And I'm I'm a I'm a good writerat this point.
So a lot of times what is goingout in my newsletter is
literally the first draft maybeone pass of revisions.
So I can write stuff and sendit pretty quick.

(31:16):
But most of my newslettershistorically I would say 90% of
my newsletters were writtenwithin 48 hours of being sent.

Josh Hall (31:25):
I was going to ask you if you have a a content gold
mine or a bank that you canjust pull from but I found that
personally to be very I justdon't like pulling something
from three years ago.
Just plop it over Twitter.
I just don't like it did Itried it a couple times and it
just didn't feel good.

Jay Clouse (31:41):
Didn't feel I probably should do it more
because honestly like peopleneed to relearn something just
as much as they need to learnsomething new.
True and true you and Iprobably both have a bunch of
content from three years agothat the core idea is still
super relevant and maybe we havesome new nuance on top of it
and we could just revisit that.
Even if we just use it as ajumping off point not even

(32:01):
pulling the content in andre-revising it.
The bigger thing is like I wantmy content to be fairly
evergreen but there's no doubtthat creating something that's a
little bit more timely in theculture it performs better.
So I'm open I'm more open tothat than I used to be because

(32:23):
timeliness is one of thosethings that shocks me into I got
something to say.
Whereas if I sit here and Ithink what should I write this
weekend should I write likethree ways to increase your
membership retention?
I could.
There's no urgency that thatneeds to be written about this
week it's not necessarilycoherent to last week's essay or
next week's essay.
So I'm trying to um be moreopen to timeliness because it's

(32:46):
good for growth.
I'm trying to get more ahead ofschedule so I stop thinking
what should I write about thisweek and remove that pressure.
Whenever the rare times that Ihave something done, written,
scheduled and I don't have suchtimeline pressure, I have better
ideas.
I I make better things.
So I I'm trying to get ahead alittle bit trying to remove the

(33:09):
pressure and timeliness helpswith that.

Josh Hall (33:12):
What about your writing for the book?
Is that a little morestructured and regimented like
where you say you know two daysa week certain blocks of time
I'm writing or are you freeflowing with that as well around
your other schedulecommitments?

Jay Clouse (33:24):
It will get there in this stage of life that's
something that I'm gonna have towork with Mal and my wife to to
decide what those blocks arebecause I will need that.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yeah.

Jay Clouse (33:37):
Right now it's been essentially a side project until
it's like fully locked in andthere are stakes and deadlines
from third parties.
Gotcha.
Because we still don't knowlike is this a book?
Do people want it?
I think it is but if I want togo the traditional route there

(33:58):
are other parties that need toagree with me for that to be
true.
And if and when that happensthat will come with terms
deadline and so the schedulewill need to accommodate it and
my priorities will need to moreaccurate accurately reflect that
on my calendar to this pointyou know we we wrote three

(34:19):
sample chapters and an overviewfor the proposal and those were
written largely in like I wouldtake like a day to work on the
chapter and then I would reviseit and it would be like the only
creative work I was doing thatday.
I can't context switch from thebook to even a newsletter right

(34:42):
now.
It has to be its own like thisis what I'm doing today and
everything else needs to sitbecause it feels so distinct
from the core business that Ican't hold both.

Josh Hall (34:54):
Yeah.
I was I was gonna ask about thecontent switching thing.
This is actually probably mynumber one challenge.
I might I might do a post inthe lab about this but it's
probably my number one challengebecause more and more I have
had a harder time.
I for whatever reason I don'tknow if it's the season of life
we're in or just everythingthat's going on the busyness,
the mental bandwidth, but I havea harder time switching from

(35:17):
writing newsletters to doing apodcast to doing video to
coaching in pro to working on myown stuff.
I used to be pretty good atlike two to three hour blogs,
but now I'm like I've turnedinto like a day guy.
I'm like if I'm gonna work onmy website this needs to be like
a full day.
If I'm gonna do podcast stuffit needs to be at least you know
four or five hours or video forsure.

(35:37):
So how how are you dealing withthat?
How are and how how are youstructuring that within your
week?

Jay Clouse (35:43):
Is it pretty strict or I feel much the same way.
I used to be able to contextswitch multiple times through
the day and get a lot of thingsdone like that.
But the problem is in my casethere's so much natural
interruption with the baby thatI used to just waste a lot of

(36:03):
time is the answer.
Like if I could context switchbut if I had to context switch
between things there would be abuffer period of like 30 minutes
of me just staring at thescreen where nothing happened
but I'm like mentally preparingto get into the place to do the
next thing I don't have thatluxury anymore.
So like I if I can get intoflow I need to stay in it.

(36:26):
And I really need to stay inthis place.
And I think that's actuallyprobably net good for output
anyway is to like reduce contextswitching.
There's research around this soI do increasingly find myself
looking at my calendar and Maland I on a weekly basis now we
look and for the week ahead it'slike all right this block of
time's yours this block oftime's mine yours mine yours
mine and that helps me look atthose large blocks and be like

(36:48):
okay I know I got to write anewsletter I know I got to
record a podcast I know I needto work on the book.
Which one of these blocks isgoing to be that and it's mostly
like day to day I'll have dayswhere it's like this is a
writing day this is a recordingday this is a book day this is a
like lab day.
But actually the the lab ismore I I fit that into smaller

(37:13):
blocks of time that can't reallyaccommodate deep work or
creation because by naturethat's a lot more reactive and I
can get into that prettyquickly because we've worked to
this point to have knowledge andI can react to things and and
be pretty efficient with that.
But um it's it's the generativenew idea creative work that is

(37:37):
increasingly hard to find timefor and needs to be separated
day to day.

Josh Hall (37:44):
The reactionary lab work you do, do you save this to
like the end of the day or justwhen you have time when it hits
you do you start with it to getthat out of the way and build
some momentum?

Jay Clouse (37:54):
No it's not a bad idea though.
I could try that the thing islike I am an hour in the morning
is worth three maybe four hourslater in the day for me.
And so if I can get the morningsome days I'm doing creative
work.
Uh the lab I'll often likeit'll be like after the baby

(38:15):
goes to bed while we're watchingTV or something I can I can dip
into that or if I have like a aperiod of time between like a
day of calls Wednesdays arebasically wall-to-wall calls and
my my mother-in-law comes overand helps so sometimes I'll have
like 30 minutes 45 minutes 60minutes between two calls and
it's like what do I do withthis?
I have no expectation I'm gonnaget anything done today but

(38:38):
here we are and if I've alreadyeaten lunch for the day I might
jump into the lab and answer DMsand answer questions and things
like that.

Josh Hall (38:45):
What are your do you do you have a pretty harsh call
schedule now?
I know you've talked aboutreally reeling that in I think
you're doing less one-on-ones inthe lab if I heard you say
recently what's what's your callschedule like now it's not too
bad it's mostly it's mostlyWednesdays.

Jay Clouse (39:00):
So basically I make my calendar open Tuesday
Wednesday Thursday to calls butspecifically Tuesdays and
Thursdays are uh typicallyinterviews and Wednesdays are
coaching calls welcome calls umcommunity calls I'll sometimes
do community calls on Tuesdaysand Thursdays as well but
Wednesday is definitely theheaviest I'll sometimes have

(39:21):
like morning till bedtime callson Wednesday.
Tuesdays and Thursdays tend tobe lighter and then Monday and
Friday totally open it's justlike what block of time will I
have the baby what block of timewill be my creative time um but
yeah I I've eliminated a lot ofcalls things that I haven't
eliminated are almostexclusively community related.

(39:42):
It's like welcome calls uh VIPcoaching calls live sessions um
then I have uh interviews onTuesdays and Thursdays I have a
meeting with my editor for thebook once a week and um I

(40:03):
suppose sometimes I have likejust one-on-one like get to know
you or opportunistic calls.
I used to have a ton of those.

Josh Hall (40:11):
I used to do like 10 one-on-one just like coffee
chats a week when I was when Iwas getting started just getting
to know people and then youknow I was doing uh the the
masterminds before I was doingthe community and so I needed to
meet people that couldpotentially someday be a fit for
this I almost do none of thatnow basically none it's it's uh

(40:33):
I I feel like I want to havemore time for it but if
someone's like hey can Iintroduce you to this guy he
really wants to talk about thisthing it's hard for me to be
like yeah in the season in theseason it's hard for me to be
like yeah let's let's talk aboutthat it's very very hard well
you and I went to a recent eventtogether at an entrepreneurial
event with some great guys likeit was really you know cool
event and stuff and I'd a few ofthem reached out afterwards but

(40:55):
I kind of found myself doingthat too where it was like
especially when it comes to inperson I'm like I just right now
in the season I know anin-person meeting like if they
want to say let's meet up forcoffee for half an hour I know
that's probably two to threehours realistically yes and I
just yeah it really it you knowlike it does become such a hard

(41:16):
ROI thing.

Jay Clouse (41:18):
Um what's you know what's interesting I find that I
have a better set of socialrelationships than I used to
though because I go for a walkevery day and I sometimes have
to drive places.
So I just call people withoutwarning a lot more frequently
than I used to.
So it's not a thing on mycalendar that I look at and I'm
dreading or orienting my dayaround it's like I'm out for a

(41:40):
walk and I feel like I couldtalk to somebody and I'll just
call somebody sometimes I end upcalling like five people a lot
of times people don't answer andI leave a message.
It's like just thinking aboutyou don't need to call me back.
But it's uh it's been great andit doesn't feel like there's
anything on my calendar becauseit wasn't on my calendar.
Of course I can't expect peoplejust to call me in the most

(42:01):
convenient of times.
So I'm calling people when it'sliterally convenient for me in
that moment.

Josh Hall (42:06):
Are these close friends they don't have to are
these close friends or do you dolike audio because I've thought
about doing that more recentlywhich is like on a walk I might
I have done this occasionally Imight this is a good challenge
to do it more which is like I'mthinking about this pro member.
I might send them an audiomessage real quick.

Jay Clouse (42:20):
I think both I think both are great.
I I'm I'm mostly calling closefriends or like kind of a layer
out I suppose um but yeah I Ithink whoever you feel like you
want to touch base with or talkto I think that's great.
Or you could just like rip offa bunch of voice memos like you
could do any of those things andit doesn't feel again like it's
it's an obligation on mycalendar I only do it when I

(42:44):
when it feels convenient.
And some people say like wellnot very nice to like call
people at your convenience howdo you know that someone on the
other end is not busy if they'rebusy don't answer.
Yeah and if they answer andthey sound busy I say is this a
good time and if not they theydon't have to talk to me.
It's fine.

Josh Hall (42:59):
Uh tell me about this season of know you're entering
you mentioned earlier this isthe last interview you're doing
for a little while so is thisbased off of just all these
challenges we've unpacked as awhole or is there something in
particular that you're needingroom for it's it's the book.

Jay Clouse (43:13):
It's it's assuming that the book will continue
moving forward and that I willneed to create those big blocks
of time which will displaceother things.
And you know I I have aninterview podcast also and
sometimes I'll reach out tofolks um one in particular I
don't think you would mind mesaying this on all white wood

(43:33):
I've I've reached out to LennyRachitsky a couple of times to
get him on the podcast and everytime he's been very gracious
and he's like listen there's nogreater benefit than me just
making my own podcast.
And it's like you know you'reright.
Like I can't I can't disagreewith you for that.
And that's increasingly how Ifeel about a lot of things too.
It's like I could spend an hourdoing this or I could spend an

(43:57):
hour building my business andthat's probably going to have a
greater long-term compoundingoutcome.
So I'm at least getting morechoosy but I'm I'm more and more
just choosing myself as aclient my business as my
priority and um that's a that'sa tough conclusion to come to as
an interviewer.

Josh Hall (44:17):
But um well the good news is pro tip for anyone doing
interviews if you're early onis like I told you Jay like take
this if you want to take theaudio make clips out of it so
you don't need to do the voicememos next week on a walk go for
it.
That has certainly helped Iknow when I had Chris Doe on
recently um I made that a biggieabout it and I think that
helped uh with him you knowspending the hour with me on

(44:39):
that.

Jay Clouse (44:40):
For sure because as an interviewer if you look at
your transcript you're probablytalking 10 to 20% of the time
and usually asking a questionnot delivering like a thought.
So in this circumstance whereI'm spending a lot more time
talking uh being able to saylike okay let's get that
recording and clip that up intosomething we can put on
Instagram that's valuable to mein this season because I am also

(45:01):
not thinking like what should Italk about?
You're very much leading thatthat discussion.

Josh Hall (45:06):
A couple this was probably a couple years ago Jay
one of the last times we chattedit was off recording and I
think you're cool with me sayingthis probably but you were like
sometimes I just want to blowmy business up and on the
outside you know your revenuewas growing beautifully it just
looked like you had everythingin the world and then you told
me that it was it was a goodreminder for me that like
sometimes the revenue andmonetary success what you don't

(45:28):
see is just all the boring hardwork that is going into that and
that was pre-kiddo toopre-little Klaus baby.
So um are you still feelingthat at all or do you feel like
you've passed all the time I'mjust ready to blow it up.

Jay Clouse (45:40):
Oh okay all the time I I don't know that I'm ever
not like halfway to pushing theself-destruct button.
But I I think I mean I'vetalked to a lot of business
owners it's super common andmost people do blow it up and
start over.
I was talking to a friend aboutthat this week because if you
look at I mean the great thingabout entrepreneurship is this

(46:01):
is the way generational wealthis created.
Like if you if you aspire tohave the highest levels of
financial success that you canimagine entrepreneurship is how
that happens and if you look atthe growth of successful
companies it's typically anexponential growth curve where

(46:26):
it's in the beginning itactually looks linear or flat
for a very long time and then ithits the curve and it goes
vertical.
And the problem with a lot ofentrepreneurs or aspiring
entrepreneurs is they get boredand they blow it up before it
hits that corner that corner andthey start something new and
they start the process all overagain.

(46:46):
So they never end up reapingthe benefits the tail end of an
exponential growth curve.
So yes I'm constantly like Iwant to blow this up because I
get bored with things but thatwould restart the clock so to
speak and in a world where we'venever had more uncertainty AI

(47:07):
is eating into everything.
The barrier to entry on allthings is lowered your advantage
to some degree is your time inmarket like it's hard for
somebody to build what I havebuilt over eight years right
now.
But if I started something newI could absolutely be out
competed pretty quickly becauseI have less time than ever.

(47:28):
So it it does not make sensefor me to self-destruct um I
think there's an argument to bemade sometimes of like I have an
idea and I'm gonna just likelike the book this book is
essentially side project rightnow.
I'm gonna keep working on itand see if I get signals that
this is promising.

(47:48):
But um there's a world wherethe book does really well and
that opens up a larger futurethan the current business.
And if that is true maybe Ireevaluate some things.
But I'm not gonna jump withouta parachute that's like already
out.

Josh Hall (48:04):
Have you had yeah well said have you had anything
over the past few years otherthan the book because the book
sounds like yes it'll it'll helpgrow creator science but it is
potentially its own thing thatcould lead to a much more broad
entrepreneur type of you knowexposure for you.
Is there anything else in thepast few years that you've
dipped your toe into secretly orpublicly like for example I did

(48:27):
some videos for Circle lastyear and they really popped off
for Circle.
It's actually been like a nicelittle steady you know um
recurring affiliate stream forme.
And I got a lot of requests forcircle help and community
building help.
And I would love to do thatbecause I love sharing what I'm
doing right now.
But because I've been anentrepreneur for 16 years now I

(48:51):
know which was what you said ifI derail myself I'm essentially
starting from scratch in thecommunity building world and
then I'm up against you and aton of others and Tom Ross and
others who are like you knowteaching the community side of
things.
And I'm all about coopetitionbut like I don't have the time
or stomach to like do that rightnow and I'm and I'm still

(49:11):
trying to continue to stabilizeWeb Designer Pro and grow it to
a certain level.
So I've had that's been likethe hardest thing for me
personally uh the challenge hasbeen like reeling myself in and
not allowing myself to dive intothis other passion thing I'd
love to do.
Anything like that on your endover the past few years?
Or have you been able to do newstuff under creator science?

Jay Clouse (49:38):
The things that I typically like start and stop
are new products within thecreator science umbrella.
So there's there's there's anew uh offer that I've been
thinking about making someprogress towards for over a year
now and sometimes I'm just likewhy do I not just finish this
and launch this like creatorschool?

(49:59):
Well that's one of them.
That's that's that's anotherone there's so too there's
there's a world where I I buildcreator school there's a world
where I make a product aroundsignature products.
So another very meta thing butum the lab is just so successful
that it doesn't make a wholelot of sense to put my attention

(50:23):
elsewhere versus just continueto compound the great thing that
we spent four years buildingthere.

Josh Hall (50:31):
And then I get into like I'm sure you've thought
about this could it be a courseor 100% in the lab yeah.

Jay Clouse (50:38):
100% um but unless I make that like the core value
proposition there have just beenother priorities to do even
within the lab than that thing.

Josh Hall (50:51):
It would be ironic to have a signature product course
that is not your signatureproduct.

Jay Clouse (50:56):
Exactly unless it's a thing the lab where it's it's
like hey I think every creatorshould have a signature product
I'm gonna teach you how to dothat.
By the way the lab is mysignature product well why did
you make a course aboutsignature products then?

Josh Hall (51:07):
So it's there there's like there's logical fallacies
with it but it's the number onething people want from me right
now I like it of all the thingsyou're working on I mean I'm
excited about the book from whatI know about but um the
signature product thing I thinkthat's also a very needed thing
in the market I feel like I meanthere's all you know like

(51:27):
there's the $100 million offersand there's a lot about having
you know your main offers but Ihaven't personally run across
too much that has the verbiageof signature product.

Jay Clouse (51:39):
And most people are hammers with a very specific
nail.
And so the way I think aboutproducts is like I'm wildly open
to the form factor.
And I think based on the designof your business the overall
premise of your work like Ican't tell you that you should
have a course maybe you shouldhave a done for you service.

(52:00):
Maybe you should have amembership maybe you should have
uh all form of things arepossible.
And so the idea with this ishelping you identify which form
factor makes the most sense howto position it, how to price it,
how to validate it, ultimatelyhow to build it and launch it.
But that's a huge scope andwould need a lot of development

(52:25):
time to do it to the standardthat I do things.
And that is new generativecreative work, which is pulling
from an already exhausted energysource that's currently
creating newsletters, podcasts,YouTube videos and a book.
It's just like really hard tobe like where in my week do I

(52:45):
have a day to make this thesignature product day and am I
willing to cut the amount of cutthe speed of the book in half
to take away half of that time.
So that's where that's the typeof thing that I get stuck on a
lot.
I did I did talk to somebodyone time who had a really good
point.
I said you know I don't knowthat I'll be the creator for

(53:06):
creator guy forever.
I will probably at some pointstart something new and when
that eats this business I'llswitch to that.
And he said well if and whenyou had really high conviction
around what your next thingwould be it's actually just a
very high opportunity cost notto devote all your all of your
resources to that new thingimmediately because you can grow

(53:30):
it faster and then all of thatcompounds.
And that's a really really goodpoint.
But I don't have that level ofconviction on something.

Josh Hall (53:37):
Yeah I I've experienced that firsthand when
I sold in transit in 2020 I justI guess the word I didn't
realize I had stumbled onto wasconviction I just felt like if
I'm gonna do this course creatorthing, I just it's in my nature
to just go all in for better orfor worse.
And I was like I just can't runtwo businesses.
I don't know how people do it.
Maybe they're just not closewith their kids.

(53:59):
I don't know but like I justcould not do it.
So yeah uh here here to thatfor sure.

Jay Clouse (54:05):
Yeah it's it's like not close to your kids or
sometimes people are really goodat resourcing their business
and getting things out of theirhand.
And I have never been good atthat.
It's a big struggle for mebecause I think even the
business today could be muchmuch bigger if I was willing to
take a little bit more risk andhire people and team build.

(54:26):
But that's a that's a new skillset which again will take some
resources from me and it's it'sit's a matter of priorities and
and sequencing and the risk isthinking about all this stuff so
much that you're not actuallydoing anything.
So I there have been periodsthis year where I've I've spent
so much time like thinking andanalyzing and planning and

(54:47):
considering that just nothingwas happening.

Josh Hall (54:50):
Have you thought more about ads um you have similar
you and I both have verydiscoverable warm methods of of
outreach to new people have youthought about more ads and cold
traffic to what you have inplace to just extend visibility
for your brand and your face andyour name I do but um this is a

(55:12):
selfish question by the waybecause I'm on the brink of
rolling this out I don't reallyhave the the assets in place to
do that strategy effectivelybecause my perspective if I were
to do it the courses for thelab right course only tier I do
but from what I see the peoplewho are doing that game really

(55:37):
really well have a pretty lowpriced offer of some kind that
then the very obvious next stepis the next highest priced
offer.

Jay Clouse (55:48):
I don't have something that's in like the $19
to $29 range that leads nicelyinto the lab or creator HQ.
Cold traffic it just it doesn'tbuy higher price things.
You would spend so much moneygetting a lead that's that

(56:08):
qualified and it's probablygoing to be somebody that you're
retargeting.
And so I feel like I would needto create net new assets at the
lower end of my product suitefor that to work.
And then I have to figure outlike the economics and the ad
creative and maybe I'm hiringsomebody to do that.
So it just quickly spins intothis thing where it's like this

(56:29):
is a large product that or alarge project that I'd probably
have to devote a month to to getup and running and what's that
coming at the expense of so II'm just constantly walking back
ideas like this to you know thelab works and people like it

(56:51):
and I know there are more peoplein my current audience who
would be a good fit.
Maybe I should send five directmessages to people who would be
a good fit you know like if I'mtrying to get people into the
membership ultimately and it'slike maybe I should do a low
price product and make that newand then figure out the ads
product to get or maybe I shouldreach out to people who I've

(57:11):
identified through theiractivity in email would be a
good fit and say have youthought about this do you want
to talk about it?

Josh Hall (57:18):
Well if I end up rolling this out I'll definitely
do a little experiment in thelab and keep you my my one angle
with it is instead of creatingnew social content as much,
which I don't do that muchanyway, but I I would almost
rather create something thatcould be an ad, even if it's to
the warm audience, even if it'sto members of Pro or or maybe

(57:39):
folks who have left for anyreason and may consider
rejoining is to just stay moretop of mind with content that I
create once and just get out infront of people over the span of
30, 60, 90 days.
That's my biggest reason forit.
So still works thinking hardabout that.

Jay Clouse (57:55):
I've seen a lot of people do it and I if I had the
assets created I would feelcomfortable hiring an agency to
help me get the campaign set upand run them.
But yeah what what I've seenfrom folks who are doing it
really well and not only uhultimately getting sales but

(58:16):
building their email list as theright type of person.
It seems like they are sellinga $19 to $29 something that uh
maybe live maybe a livechallenge.
Justin Moore has actuallyturned a corner on this in a
really compelling way.
And now he he's like running anads campaign that pays for

(58:36):
itself that gets people to awebinar and then a large number
of those people convert tocoaching customers for his his
coaching membership and that isbeautiful.
But that at least means thatI'm running a live challenge the
way he is for some period oftime which is another time

(58:57):
commitment.
So it's it's hard when I see somany business models and things
that can work and it's like Icould do any of these.
Of course I could I'm very capI'm very capable I'm very smart
I have resources but what gamesam I going to play in the
season?
What games do I want to getgood at?
Because like it's you couldshow up and play and have fun or

(59:17):
you can say I'm going tocompete here and increasingly
I'm drawing the line of if I'mgonna play a game it's because I
want to compete and I can'tcompete in all of them with my
current resource constraints.

Josh Hall (59:34):
That right there Jay is wisdom my man from a decade
of doing this that is that isnot knowledge that is wisdom.
Um yeah man here here and I'llmake sure I link that interview
with Justin that was a greatchat I did listen to that read
was that too that was 272 um yesyes yes yes we we actually that

(59:54):
is not the latest informationwe were gonna record something
new but we haven't yet uh okaybecause that that basically was
like here was my

Jay Clouse (01:00:00):
My first pass at doing this, and it was uh cash
flow positive.
He has since done it again, andit was like two X as a fact.

Josh Hall (01:00:07):
Oh, okay.
Well, we we're we're pretty farout on podcast right now.
So depending on when that comesout, I'll I'll make sure to
that we get the right one linkedup because yeah, that actually
what part what perked myinterest in that, and maybe I'll
talk to Justin about thatbecause he's he's gonna be
coming on soon.
Um, I think that would workreally well for web designers in
particular.
Like that in particular is likea great lead-in strategy that

(01:00:30):
could you know do things in agroup style setting without
doing a bunch of one-on-onediscovery calls.

Jay Clouse (01:00:35):
So yeah, and I think your membership is set up
better for it than the lab isbecause the lab is like so
distinctly peer-to-peer in a lotof ways.
Like we don't have this verylinear.
Here are the very specificskills you need, and here's the
set of courses that are gonnaget you there.
Um and increasingly it's likeless and less around coaching

(01:00:56):
from me.
So, you know, for him, it'slike you're trying to get your
first sponsorship.
This challenge is going to runand help you get that
sponsorship.
And by the way, if you likethis, you should just work with
our team on sponsorshipcoaching.
And similar, you could run asimilar challenge where it's
like, we're gonna help you getyour first web design client,
your next web design client.
And if you like this, youshould join our coaching
membership where we're gonnahelp you do more of the same.

(01:01:18):
I think that would work reallywell.

Josh Hall (01:01:20):
That is of big interest.
When's that chat coming out?
Did you guys already recordthat too?
We haven't recorded it.

Jay Clouse (01:01:24):
We haven't even scheduled it.
Uh just message Justin.
I'll be like, Can you talk tome about this?
Uh yeah.
Yeah, we should I should getback to him on that though.

Josh Hall (01:01:34):
Well, speaking of schedules and constraints, I
want to honor your time here,Jay.
Um, dude, really great catchingup, though.
I would have loved to have donethis in person.
I feel terrible.
I had to bail on the lastcouple opportunities with you.
But um, yeah, dude, like Isaid, just pumped for you,
always learning from you.
And I am excited that myaudience of web designers, I'm
it's interesting to see how uhabsorbent they are of your

(01:01:58):
stuff.
It just it proves to me thatall web designers are
entrepreneurs, whether theyrealize it or not.
Um they're all making content,they're all getting clients,
they all have an offer, they'reall figuring out pricing,
they're all balancing communityrelationships.
So I'm glad to hear it.

Jay Clouse (01:02:13):
I say I'm glad to hear it.
I mean, it if I were to leavethem with anything, if this is
still on the recording, um I wasgonna ask for a final thought,
go for it, yeah.
If they want to get off of thetime for money train, you need
to hire yourself as your ownclient.
You need to take your own workseriously, and probably like

(01:02:34):
should be your best, mostcreative time to say, like, I'm
going to forego a whole clientworth of revenue and time, and
that is strictly me.
If you don't do that, you'rejust you're just slowing down
that curve.

Josh Hall (01:02:50):
Well said.
Great way to end it, Jay.
Till the next one, man.
Till round five when I send youa jerk.
That was recorded, so it's onrecord.
It's happening.
All right, my friend.
I hope you enjoyed this one.
Again, the show notes for thisepisode are gonna be at
joshhall.co slash 408.
Be sure to connect with Jay.

(01:03:11):
I highly, highly, highlyrecommend tuning into his
podcast.
It's called Creator Science.
It is a YouTube and audio show.
It is one of my only, actually,probably dare I say my only
rarely missed weekly listens.
It is just so dang good, andJay is such a great interviewer.
Um, and uh, it's in the name.
He is a scientist at heart, sohe is finding out what is

(01:03:33):
working well today.
So I know it's gonna help youas you create content and grow
your web design business.
The podcast, the newsletter,everything you need is over at
creatorscience.com.
So go check that out.
Go follow Jay.
Tell him you heard him on theWeb Design Business Podcast and
how much you enjoyed thisepisode, and congratulate him
for being our most repeatedguest to date, if you would.

(01:03:55):
All right, my friend, staysubscribed.
We've got some good ones ahead.
Cheers, and I'll see you overat the show notes for this one,
joshhall.co slash 408.