November 18, 2025 • 52 mins
Welcome to Episode 72 of the Wed.Co Podcast. Today, Toga sit’s down with Jay Geering. Jay is an expert in Sales, Mindset and works alongside brand leaders developing strategies and processes to help grow sales.
This conversation explores the intricate relationship between personal success and self-worth, emphasizing the importance of comfort levels in achieving goals. It discusses the necessity of setting clear, ambitious goals and the process of reverse engineering them to create actionable pathways for success.
Takeaways
- The level of your success will directly link back to the comfort level that you have around that success.
- Your success is always reflected by that internal relationship to self and also to money.
- You have to model someone and choose a goal.
- Setting a specific number is crucial for success.
- To achieve a significant jump in success, start small and reverse engineer your goals.
- Clients are often encouraged to halve their timeframe to create discomfort for growth.
- Unconscious programming and identity issues can affect your success.
- Feeling worthy of success is essential for achieving it.
- Getting uncomfortable is necessary for change.
- A clear pathway helps in achieving ambitious goals.
Your support enables us to bring more enriching conversations and insights to both engaged couples and wedding professionals.
Stay connected with us on Instagram at @wed.copodcast and watch all your favorite wedding professionals on our YouTube channel @wed.copodcast.
Catch our episodes on major podcast platforms like Apple, Spotify, and IheartRadio, all under WedCo Podcast.
Join us for our next episode on the Wed.Co Podcast, where we continue to explore the mesmerizing and ever-changing landscape of weddings.
Toga xxx
Chapters
00:00 The Connection Between Success and Self-Worth 00:39 Setting Goals and Reverse Engineering Success
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the Wedco podcast, your ultimate guide to the wedding world.
Whether you're a bride, groom or wedding vendor, this is the place to be.
Join us as we dive into real stories, expert advice and behind the scenes insights to helpyou plan the perfect day.
So grab a seat and let's celebrate love, connection and creativity together.
Before we get into this episode, I'd love to ask you a super quick and easy favor.
(00:24):
If you're enjoying the Wedco podcast, please hit that follow button on Apple, Spotify orYouTube.
It might seem small, but it makes a huge difference in helping the podcast grow and meansI can keep bringing on amazing vendors to share their insights with you.
Thank you so much for your support.
It truly means the world.
Hello and welcome to the word co podcast.
Today I've got Jay gearing on the couch with us in the studio.
(00:44):
Thanks so much for coming in.
uh We're doing a little series here.
Like obviously in the past we've had, I've been traveling around to different venues.
We've had the best vendors, you know, in Southeast Queensland and byron on the podcast.
but I'm still getting more and more questions every day about like, there's just vendorsthat aren't booking weddings.
And I feel like still more and more vendors are struggling to kind of book out these days.
(01:07):
And so a little backstory, like Jay and I started working together.
I'd kind of done the ads things.
I was getting the leads.
Everyone told me that I should jump on a Zoom call and that means I'll book every singlelead and I wasn't.
So that's where kind of Jay came into the conversation.
Do you wanna give like a little bit of an introduction about like why?
would I, as a wedding vendor, come to speak to you, Jay?
(01:28):
Mates, very good question.
And what I would say is this, everything in business is a skillset and a mindset.
Yes, you need systems to help you deliver those skills in a specific way to get a certainoutcome.
But in simple answer, I would say if you don't feel like you're reaching your fullpotential in terms of growth, in terms of scaling, in terms of hitting those goals that
(01:53):
you have for yourself, then it's definitely something we can work on.
And it's normally something to do with an internal belief structure around what youbelieve is possible because of your past experience or maybe who you look to into the
marketplace, the industry, et cetera.
But quite often as well, it's as simple 1 % pivot or shift as to how you're doingsomething.
(02:13):
So when we first worked together, I know we were chatting through your process, lackthereof.
The one thing is you really bring a good presence on screen.
So I know you had a great rapport and connection with people, but I was like,
mate, what's happening next?
Like at the end of the call, talk me through it.
And you're like, well, nothing.
I'm just kind of like waiting for them to come back to me.
(02:36):
And I think that's a very normal, unfortunately, response for a lot of people in sales.
um Having worked in this field now for close on 20 years, I would say there's very fewpeople that love sales.
Most people would probably prefer to pick their eyes out with chopsticks, then go throughand actually get to that point of transacting.
But
(02:57):
Everything in life is a transaction.
Everything's a sale, so to speak, in terms of negotiating at what we need, what we cangive, et cetera.
And I think when you learn the skillset and you have a systemized way of approaching anddelivering that, you can take something that's very complex and or scary and make it
simple, easy, and actually get the results you want.
(03:19):
I think that's very funny.
Like so many things you said was like, that's me, that's me.
And it's like, I went to, you know, I wasn't getting any leads.
went to the, to the ads agency, all of a sudden I'm getting 30, 40 leads every month.
And then I'd be like, send the email, hope they book me.
And like, still, it still went really well.
Like I was probably booking one in probably every seven or every eight, you know, weddingswould book me.
(03:42):
But I was so scared.
Like they give me their phone number and I'm like,
I don't want call them because I'm going to be annoying them.
I'm going to be salesy.
Like you just think of the person who tried to sell to you at one point during your lifeand you're like, I'm going to be that person.
Um, and so there are so many things when you're not used to that, like they just push backagainst you all the time.
Um, and so like, maybe we can start from, uh we're just assuming that people are gettingthe leads now.
(04:09):
Yep.
And okay, so we're getting our 30 leads a month.
Where can we like, how can we
across that, I don't want to be salesy, but how can we go from converting more of those 30leads that you're paying money for to actually being an ideal client that you want to work
with?
Yeah, really good question.
wherever you are at in your business evolution, that's good enough.
(04:32):
We start with what you have and we work out what's the one or two things we can do better.
And everything's a test.
Everything's a hypothesis.
Hey, let's try this.
This response didn't work.
Let's try this.
It's a series of pivoting how you're operating within your business.
So we start with where you're at.
And again, this is assuming, like you said, that people have leads coming in.
(04:53):
You need to be attracting a good volume of leads.
and you need to make sure that those leads are the ideal type of leads you want to workwith, or at least be looking for the solution that you offer.
From that point of view, we really want to get into this mindset of how do we go fromwanting something from these leads to just providing value.
(05:16):
Remembering that if somebody goes to a gym and they sign up for a gym membership, they'renot there that day to sign up for membership in three months time.
They're interested.
If they're at your front door, if they're inquiring, there's a level of interest.
There's a level of need that they have.
And I think as creators, what we need to really do is shift our mindset around, well, I'mtrying to get something from these people to, how can I serve them?
(05:45):
And sales is really just connecting a problem with a solution.
And quite often it's...
process to get to that point.
I know that not every person's ready to purchase the moment they knock on your front dooror fill out a lead form, whatever it might be.
But when we start to approach leads and or sales from a point of, hey, what can I help youwith?
(06:08):
What are your challenges?
What are your needs?
What are your problems?
We go on with a sense of curiosity, sales can become fun.
And it's something where literally like any normal conversation, we are just talking,we're working out, okay, what is it you're looking for?
And when are you getting married?
What is your ideal budget?
And these sorts of things that once we start to understand who they are, what they want,we can very seamlessly start to shift them through a process that to them will feel
(06:32):
normal, natural, and coming from that mindset of how can I help you?
How can I serve you?
Sales becomes fun.
Because now you're in position where you are helping someone who is probably stressed out,has probably got a lot on their plate.
they're working to some sort of budget for the whole wedding.
Let's face it.
I know when I got married, I think we went over by a hundred percent in terms of our firstbudget to what we actually spend.
(06:56):
um You know, getting married is a joyful thing, but it's also a stressful thing.
Locking in vendors and locations and photographers and trying to kind of coordinate that.
And if you can step in to help them and alleviate and simplify the decision, then...
people will want to do business with you.
(07:17):
Yes, branding is important, absolutely.
You need to be good at what you do.
You need to speak to their wants, desires.
They've got to like you and your work on some level.
But beyond that, there's no reason why if they're there, there's no reason why youshouldn't be able to close them in by providing a solution and helping them move to that
next point.
(07:38):
think at the start, we even talked about transparency and then also different containersof clients approaching you.
So I would almost be too scared in the past where I have all these leads come to me andI'm too scared to ask them, are you ready to book now or are you just searching for
everyone?
(07:58):
And I remember before I jumped on a call, we were talking about that and I would startsending a message to people an hour beforehand, like, hey guys, just so I know, are you
actually ready to book?
wedding photographer and videographer?
are you just kind of, you you're just looking around at the moment, just so that I cankind of guide you in the conversation, where we need to go and offer you value for what
stage you're in.
(08:18):
But do want to talk about like even the different kind of, I guess, containers withinwithin calls that you can kind of?
Yeah, just feels a more transparency that I've given my my couples now, the more open itis, and it doesn't feel sleazy.
Totally, totally.
Yeah, I remember when we first chatted, I think it was at the gym.
We were doing a workout together.
Doing carbs.
(08:39):
And you were talking through how many people you weren't closing.
I was like, run me through your numbers.
How many leads are you How many calls?
I was like, what are you booking?
And I was like, everything's great from like a lead gen price point of view, but closerate, dude, you're leaving so much money on the table.
And for you, we identified two things.
And that was number one, you weren't identifying for them to self identify where they wereat in their...
(09:01):
buying cycle process.
And then secondly was, well, next step.
What's the next step of this conversation?
So I think it's really purposeful to yes, gather as much relevant information that you canfrom your leads.
You don't want to have like a super long lead form because...
that's gonna create resistance.
(09:22):
I know you've tested that you've gone from long lead forms to simple name, number, email.
Yeah, exactly.
ah There's a trade off anytime we have less resistance, we get more volume, but notnecessarily better quality.
The greater the resistance in terms of information they have to give over.
Yes, they become more and more qualified as they go through the process.
But it's finding that magic flow between the right volume.
(09:43):
at the right resistance relative to how much time you've got to qualify those leads andjump on calls and do Zooms, et cetera.
But it's really simple to have some sort of pre-qualification process, whether it's in thelead form, the application form they're filling out, or if it's on the email that you send
out before the actual Zoom call.
(10:03):
It's really smart because now you're going in with the right understanding of, these guysare almost ready or they're at the very first stages of gathering information.
that will determine and give you a posture as how to go into that sales call or that meetand greet.
We call it a discovery call.
(10:24):
And it's really important because if you don't know where they're at, and sometimes it'ssimple as a, guys, like really keen to know like where are we at?
What have you booked so far?
Because you'll understand the best process.
You've talked to me about this in terms of when and how to book what and a reverseengineer some of that.
it gives you a really good posture to take the pressure off the call and say, look today,the purpose of this call is this, right?
(10:48):
And as we get through this, if you feel like this is a good fit, well, then I'll explainwhere we go to from here.
So having this sort of structured flow that feels normal, feels natural based on them,based on where they're at in their buying cycle.
But that's not to say once you get better at communication and I'm a master of NLP, mastertrainer,
(11:10):
Hypnosis as well.
So I use a lot of different language patterns to help unlock things in people that Maybethey didn't know for themselves Maybe they don't think they're ready to make a decision
But if they had the one piece of information they think they need, yep, they could get tothat point on that call So again, we start at where you're at with your level of skill set
(11:33):
your level of leads the quality of your leads We work out what we need to do to improvethat
And then like anything, we just start to reverse engineer towards the end output of whatyou want to actually achieve.
What is it that we need to do that's going to help get you the best outcome relative totime and or what you want to put out in terms of sales calls and all those things.
(11:57):
Yeah, I think even one bit of advice she said was, like, if they're on the call with you,I will talk to the couple now and be like, like, I'm guessing like, you've already seen
you like our work, and you already love our work.
And they'll be like, yes, like, even that in the past, felt wrong to ask them.
But they're like, no, there's a reason why they're jumping onto a zoom call with you inthe first place.
And just acknowledging, even like, allowing them to understand, like, that's why they'reon the phone with you as well.
(12:22):
Totally.
Okay, and then so in the in the past, I would be like, cool, thank you so much for thechat.
Chat soon.
Like how should we kind of be ending those calls?
Do think?
Yeah, look, we used to sell million dollar sales scripts for people who are remote closersor they're solo entrepreneurs in their business looking to close better deals, more deals,
(12:44):
et cetera.
I think people are moving away from that now.
I've seen a huge shift towards away from scripts to almost like scriptless selling.
That doesn't mean you don't have a process, a sales flow process in terms of kind of likechoose your own adventure.
If you go here, this is the next step.
If we need to backtrack here, then this is the next step.
So you need to have a strategy and a system around how you're leading and nurturing thesepeople through that process.
(13:10):
So what I would say is this, um how you frame the start of a call will greatly impact howyou end the call.
And obviously the next point of contact after that.
So I always like to start calls with some general rapport.
We lead into...
um
this is the purpose, kind of give like a structure of this is what we're gonna do today,we're gonna explore this.
(13:33):
And then I kind of handed it over to them and say, what do you wanna get out of this calltoday?
What do you need?
What's your wants?
Where you're at and you sort of start to gather that information.
If you do that well, then what happens is people will generally give you the informationthat you need to help them get to a point of making a decision.
And for me, coming from the coaching space, consulting, working both...
(13:57):
business to consumer, works with probably over 5,000 people in different businesses I'velaunched and run.
So then obviously working with businesses as well.
um This process of discovery, genuinely wanting to know what it is, are there problems,their needs, their wants, gives us the information to literally solve that problem for
them.
(14:17):
So the next point of, I guess, step in the process would be taking them through to,whether that's a point of sale,
if they're almost ready, if you feel like you've got enough information, uh if they're notyet there, then you might have a deflection piece, which is kind of like, go away, do some
homework, or you can send them some things.
But I would always look to like keep that nurturing contact going, whether you rebook acall, if they're not ready to move forward.
(14:42):
But I think a lot of people are actually afraid to ask for the sale.
Have you heard enough today to make a decision?
And they might be like, I think so.
Okay, cool.
Well, here's where we go to next.
We require this for a deposit.
These are the payment terms.
This is where we go to.
And generally speaking, if you've done a really good job at understanding their needs onceand kind of handling objections that they come up, there's no reason why you can't move
(15:07):
forward to taking a deposit and getting that booked in.
Sure.
And it's like not being scared to ask those questions.
And yeah, because like even like you get to that point, like I've had a few lately, whereI'm like, cool, this is usually what we do for the deposit.
Does that work for you?
And they're like, oh, we're a bit tight because we just booked our venue last week.
Like, okay, that's fine.
(15:28):
Like, what would work for you?
if we if we did two different payments of half of that amount, would that work?
And they're like, that's perfect.
So even just like little things like that being able to ask, and then you're getting offthe phone call.
I don't think people are still booking on the actual call, but like I'll be sending themthrough like the formal quote at the end of the call.
Like I've just sent that through to you and then they kind of go on and do that likestraight away afterwards.
(15:49):
But it's like they have committed, but there's still this feeling where you get off theend of a call and you're like, hope they booked.
But it definitely, does like just having that open discussion with people.
feel like they're more confident in your services.
Because in the past, like, cool, we had a really cool conversation with a photographer.
but there's no, I guess, real confidence in the actual business built up around thatrapport building.
(16:12):
Yeah, for me, I always see selling is kind of like dating.
Yep.
Right.
Flashback to, you know, dancing at the disco when we were 16, 17, 18 years old, or evengoing up, you know, up to someone in the club or whatever it might be.
There's always this level of apprehension.
It's a little bit awkward.
It's kind like, well, kind of like you, do you like me?
Yeah.
(16:32):
There's always going to be a natural element of discovery, shall we say.
But once you start to do the dance with someone,
ah There's no reason why you can't lead confidently.
They're there with a problem.
You're there to help them solve that problem.
And the problem is this, they want to lock a photographer in.
They need to make a decision.
(16:53):
So every sales call for me is kind of like a breakthrough of sorts.
I need to help coach someone to that point of decision.
What is it that they need?
And what you did really well there was you kind of took their objection of, well, we can'tafford that.
Okay, cool.
No worries.
what can you afford?
It shows a real openness and it's a very clever kind of questioning strategy of workingwith them to show that you are willing to tailor the whole experience.
(17:22):
And they'll get a good feel for that straight from uh the very moment they jump on a callwith you.
Yeah, because they also might have just gone away being embarrassed that they couldn't payfor the deposit now.
And then that's the end of it.
And there was no fault of anyone's.
But it's just they didn't want to come to you to tell you that they couldn't afford thatdeposit.
um Which I it does happen a fair bit where like, people are too scared to tell you thatyou're too expensive for them.
(17:43):
Like, that's fine.
Like, there's different budgets for everyone.
We might be able to work out like I've got, you know, different lead shooters that havedifferent rates, maybe we can work someone else in.
But I feel like you need to be more and more transparent yourself to allow them to do thatas well.
Yeah, a good way to do this might be to kind of like sort your leads into buckets.
Okay, let's call it a just getting started looking for information bucket versus done allthe research.
(18:05):
We're at that point here now where we need to make a decision.
It's come down between you and two other photographers, for example, something that I knowreally helped you was we kind of looked at your leads as being in two different buckets.
One is like, we're just getting going with our research, we're gathering information.
The other bucket is we've done our research.
We're at that point where we're looking to actually
transact.
Now they won't say that.
(18:26):
Yeah, but they'll be almost ready to buy.
There'll be a couple of factors standing in the way.
And that might be something you want to kind of like tease out at the beginning of thecall.
Okay, cool.
I noticed you said that you're almost ready.
Like where you're at?
Yeah, exactly.
Have you booked this?
And there were certain questions that I know that you would ask that would tell you, okay,this is where they're kind of sitting.
This is my gauge.
And at that point, when we lead into this, the purpose of the call, you might want toinclude something like, and at the end of this call,
(18:53):
once we've been through everything, this is where we go to from here.
If you feel like it's a good fit, we can do this, we can get you started, I'll explain thenext steps.
Does that make sense?
How does that feel?
So you always want to kind of bounce it back to them, but people are looking forleadership, they're looking for guidance because again, as creators, you do this for your
living.
(19:13):
You're at weddings almost every week of the year or whatever it might be.
And for these guys, let's say hopefully most people get married once, if not twice.
there's this element of like, this is a one-time event.
For them, it's a huge amount of pressure.
So I do see the opportunity for you to come in to ease that pressure and make thedecision-making process easy.
And they want to feel comfortable with you.
(19:34):
But if you do that well, there's no reason why you can't close the deals.
Yeah, for sure, uh
All right, now we talked about, I guess, the phone call a little bit.
um One thing that I still haven't broken through, and I feel like this would be a lot ofcreators in the wedding space, would be, okay, I wouldn't pay X amount of dollars for
wedding photos, but I want to be a luxury wedding photographer and I want to charge thatamount.
(19:56):
And then it's really hard for me to get on a phone call or a Zoom call and be like, no,you should pay this for me, know, like 100 % you should.
But there is like, there is this thing in the back of my mind like, I would never pay forthat.
So like that's, know you're kind of especially around like mindset as well.
Is there anything we can do to kind of help unlock that a little bit for us?
(20:17):
Mate, this is so common for every person in business.
The level of your success will directly link back to the comfort level that you havearound that success.
Literally at a nervous system level, you're gonna have unconscious programming, identityissues, belief issues around what's possible, but also what you feel worthy of.
(20:41):
There's, it's not words, it's science, it's backed by neuroscience.
We know that the level of your success is always reflected by that internal relationshipto self and also to money.
So there's two elements to this.
uh Element one is we have to model someone.
You've got to choose a goal.
You've got to choose a number.
So if you're currently shooting at 5K per wedding and there's someone you look up to inthe space who's got great branding, they've positioned themselves really well.
(21:10):
and your goal is to go, let's say eight to 10K a wedding.
That's a big jump.
Right?
So we start small.
We reverse engineer that goal to create a very clear pathway that helps you get therewithin a realistic timeframe.
The clients I work with, typically ask them to half that timeframe to get them reallyuncomfortable.
Because to change, you've got to get uncomfortable.
(21:32):
So the quicker you get used to being uncomfortable in that process of growing andevolving, the quicker you can start to step into, and you've got to remember,
you just need to hit one home run.
You just need to close one deal at like 6K and then at 7K and then at 8K and you're like,holy moly.
That's possible.
(21:53):
So from that point of view, you've got to have this kind of like, where do I want to getto from a pricing point of view?
Remembering that you are not your client.
That's the biggest lesson I would say is do not think or assume that because you wouldn'tpay that or you wouldn't see the worth in that.
that somebody else doesn't.
(22:14):
Pricing is highly subjective.
What's expensive for me is cheap for somebody else.
So I think if you're clear around kind of like where it is you want to go to, then reverseengineering, that's really simple.
We look at, okay, how many weddings do you want to book per year?
And then we break down the math of you're currently charging 5k.
What do we need to do to up your price to 6k?
(22:37):
We call it a lifetime value of a client.
So what's the maximum sort of average price that we could get people to with upsells andcross sells and add-ons that they might want.
And look, if we increase your price by only a thousand dollars per wedding, and you've got35 weddings in a year, you've just made it extra $35,000.
So from that point of view, we want to have a very clear outcome of where do we want toget to, who in the space is already doing that, that we can kind of model it from kind of
(23:02):
an internal perspective point of view.
And then let's remove the emotion.
Let's get uncomfortable first.
Let's remove the emotion and let's ask to challenge that internal reality with areversible plan that can actually get us there within a set timeframe.
You just need one home run and then the brain will take that on as being, okay, that'sactually possible for me.
(23:25):
And all of a sudden you're like, I'm worth that.
Like they paid for it, they paid for it, they paid for it.
Like all of a sudden that is your new worth.
Because other people have.
And it's important to remember as well that people will tell you what their max budgetpoint is.
They never reveal their actual budget point.
They'll always reduce that number.
It's a psychological thing that we all do.
Like if you're gonna go bid for a house, you're not gonna walk in and offer the absolutetop dollar that you can afford.
(23:50):
If you really want it, you're gonna go in there and pay what you think it's worth.
But if you have to outbid someone, I mean, I've done it before.
I've bought a place at auction before.
I spent...
a lot more than I really wanted to, but I really wanted that place.
So from a price point, you can really create a range of, okay, my ideal client sits heresomewhere between 5,000 and 8,000.
(24:12):
And then how do we create some products upsells strategy to just put it before them?
And say, hey, this is our base package, but we offer this and we offer this.
As a rule of thumb, you wanna have at least two or three different price points.
that are reverse engineered and tailored to suit your goal, to stretch your belief inyourself, and then start to fine tune that as you go along.
(24:37):
It's funny you say that because like there's been times where I've got inquiries and I waslike, yep, they're going to book me and then I'll find out like a week later they haven't.
And then I've got like friends that will charge like double what I do and they bookedthem.
my whole thing has been like, it must've been too expensive.
And then my buddy is like, book that couple.
Like, you so it's, you never really know.
But the first thing that will come to your mind was that it was too expensive, but youmight've been too cheap.
(25:01):
They might've seen you and seen like your, like what you were charging.
And they're like, well, I had this in mind for what I wanted to pay.
So you mustn't be as good as that.
um But it can be, it can definitely be scary.
ah
this.
Most people sit around what price point as a photographer?
say photo, like I think five grand is safe to say like kind of that mid level.
(25:22):
And I feel like there's a lot of people, there's a majority of the industry would bearound that mark.
And top tier would be like eight to 12.
yeah, something like that for sure like depending on like, you know, if you're in Sydneyor Melbourne or what type of weddings and niches you're in.
Yeah, like yeah
The reality is the mid tier market is more competitive because more people are comfortableto stay at that price point.
(25:47):
Sometimes the craziest things can happen when you choose to fish in a bigger pond.
In terms of price point, it's smaller in terms of competition, but bigger in terms ofopportunity.
And I've seen that time and time again, like I was working with one guy in the coachingspace.
uh He was working as an SEO agency, stuck at $24,000 a month.
(26:08):
Now on paper, doing well, but frustrated because he was entirely stuck.
So the first thing we did was we tripled his prices.
He went from a thousand dollars per month to $3,000 per month on a retainer.
That was like unforeseeable, impossible, could not do it.
He was struggling to transact at a thousand dollars price point.
(26:29):
We launched some new creatives.
We reversed engineer the process of X number of leads, X number of calls, X number ofcloses.
He gets his first close.
And he channels my voice in his head because he didn't have the confidence in himself todo it.
And he gets to the end of the call.
He's like, holy, I just sold on this person at for a minimum of, and he was doing like themath in his head.
(26:52):
He went from $24,000 a month to over 45, $50,000 a month at his first growth point.
further past that now simply by upping his prices.
Now he did it with brown pants.
He was shitting himself, but this is life.
This is learning.
This is evolving.
We do it with brown pants.
(27:13):
We have to get uncomfortable.
Nothing changes unless we do.
And the reality is once we start to realize what's possible, it doesn't matter the number,whether increasing by 1%, 2%.
a 1 % improvement over a year is like a 3,700 % improvement overall.
So we overestimate what it is we think we have to do to actually get the result we want.
(27:40):
When in reality, you don't have to do that much differently.
You just have to be really intelligent and really strategic in a way that's gonna get youto your goal and have someone helping you, guiding you, encouraging you through that
process because business is lonely.
That's why it's so important to be a part of a group and or get mentorship and or get helpon any one of those 1 % whether it's sales or marketing or branding, whatever it is.
(28:03):
If you don't have the skillset, get it.
If you don't have the mindset, get it and then develop the systems around that thatactually will get you to your goal.
for sure.
And it's like, and that is coming back to like running it like a business while sayinglike, I was booking one out of every seven.
Then after like we had our, you know, coaching calls and everything, it was like one inevery five.
And if you put that into perspective, you're like, cool, now I'm booking, you know, like,it was crazy.
(28:25):
It was like $100,000 more weddings just because I went from seven to five.
on two simple shifts with your status groups.
Exactly.
So and there are so many little pieces like that along the way that you can just like pickup little bits like that too.
So like, okay, we want to we want to expand.
We've been at $5,000 forever.
Everyone wants to be in that luxury market.
They want to kind of go to that eight to 10.
In the past, I've been like, okay, once I hit 30 weddings, this is my milestone.
(28:49):
Then from that point, I'm upping my prices.
I will go through three sales calls.
None will book me.
I'm like, I'm not worth that.
Back to my safety little thing down here.
And then I'll like, it'll honestly, it'll probably take me like another six months to belike, let's go again, let's go again, know?
And like build up that confidence again.
Is there any, does it just have to be scary?
(29:10):
Is there any way we can kind of make it less scary?
Yeah, the way that we make it less scary is we increase your chances to win.
That comes down to volume of leads.
If you, the biggest challenge for most people, why they are under 10 or $15,000 a month asa photographer is probably because they're not known, number one, or known enough as they
(29:33):
could be or should be.
They're overlooked and or they're underpaid.
They're the three main reasons.
Now, if we solve those three problems, if we put you out, we...
upgrade your branding, we upgrade your presence, we use, you know, boosted ads andspecific targeted ads to actually get your imagery out in front of people that you want to
know and they want to know you now in a position where we're increasing your chance towin.
(29:57):
And it literally comes down to a numbers game.
There's four aces in a pack of cards.
If I shuffle those cards, if I told you that each one of those aces is worth $10,000.
Are you going to stop if you turn over seven cards and you don't get one?
Yeah, exactly.
You'd be crazy.
There's $40,000 in the analogy there.
You're going to turn over every single freaking card until you get the result.
(30:21):
So if we increase it, we remove the emotion, we get you uncomfortable in the sense ofputting you into, I need to learn, I'm growing every call, I'm getting better.
I'm making those little 1 % reflective iterations to how you're showing up on a call, etcetera.
Then what we're doing is you need to reframe what success and failure is.
If you get three nose, it hurts.
(30:45):
get it.
You need to iterate.
You need to show up.
need to do the reps.
Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't look like a beast overnight.
He showed up volume and reps.
And so what we can do is if you can gamify the process.
So let's say, okay, there's four aces in this pack of cards.
They're each worth $10,000.
(31:06):
What's 52 or 40,000 divided by 52, whatever it is.
Divide the total number by 52.
Don't place all of the win value and all or nothing, did I win or did I lose on the onesthat say yes.
Every no is worth money.
Why?
Because it's getting you closer and closer to that ACE that you're gonna turn over.
(31:29):
It's a numbers game.
And that's where at the beginning, when you're not so good at sales and or it's clunky andit's awkward or whatever it is, whilst we're developing the skillset and the systems to
get you there.
You just need volume.
You need to be able to go through so that you know, well, it doesn't matter.
He said, no, they said, no, but I've still got 20 people lined up that want to speak withme.
(31:50):
So I think if we can change the meaning of success and failure and gamify it, it becomes alot less emotional and you've got to run experiments, hypothesis with your business.
You've got to get help because a lot of people can't do this alone.
The best people, the best creators, the best coaches have the best help.
They outsource, they go and buy help.
Why?
(32:10):
Because they know they need the skillset.
They need to learn it.
But the reality is it is a game.
You can get better.
It doesn't take as long as you think it will.
And you need to commit to doing something for a set period of time.
I'm not talking like seven days.
I'm like minimum three months.
This is what I'm doing.
I'm showing up.
I'm trusting the process.
(32:30):
I'm putting the work in.
I'm iterating.
I'm learning.
I'm reframing.
I'm managing myself through that process.
I guarantee if you do that well for three months, you will have such a mindset shiftaround what's possible for you in your life that you will not want to stop because now you
have a taste for this is possible.
And regardless of your number in terms of weddings per year, there's always capacity forgrowth.
(32:54):
We can up your price.
We can change pivot, whatever we need to do to create a lifestyle that serves you.
Cause I know a lot of creators go into this business to support their lifestyle,flexibility of it.
But if you're gonna do it, might as do it well.
Exactly.
Yeah, have a good life.
It's like, it's crazy when you talk about the mindset before I started doing theadvertising, I was like, no one's booking weddings.
(33:15):
That's not my problem.
It's just like, no one's inquiring with me because no one's getting married anymore.
Was that a worldview for yourself?
Like this is truth for the world.
This is what's happening in the marketplace right now.
Yeah, I think so.
I think it was like, yeah, two years ago, whatever it was, I'm just like, no one's gotmoney.
ah Yeah, just no one's booking weddings.
So it's not it mustn't be anything I'm doing.
It must just be Yeah.
And then like, I started running the ads, and you're getting like 30 to 40 leads everymonth.
(33:37):
And you're like, people are getting married.
Like, you talk to other people like, nah, people aren't getting married.
Like, they are.
They're just like, they're not seeing you.
Yeah.
You're not seen, you're overlooked, you're underpaid.
You solve the first problem.
You increase the number of eyeballs on your content.
You had a very simple ad strategy, right?
Like landing to, here's what I do if you want information, fill out this form.
(33:59):
Hey Presto, yeah, we wanna work with you.
And I think what works for you as well is you gotta be a nice guy, nice person.
You've gotta really care.
And I think most creators are because they're artists at heart.
They're there to serve to...
creating, curating, stuff like that.
But I think that's what's worked well for you is you know how to build really good rapportwith people and you can't underestimate that because people buy from people that they like
(34:25):
and they trust.
If you can establish that sense of rapport early on, even with your branding, even withyour ads, even with whatever it might be, following leads up, I can't tell you the number
of people that I've worked with that have this plethora of leads coming in.
I'm like, what's your speed to lead?
I'll be usually get like one to three days.
(34:46):
I'm like, I'm like, those leads have a problem.
Yeah.
If you don't get in front of them, first to market first to call will be in front of themprobably close the deal.
Yeah.
So I think speed to lead is crucial.
You've got to have the ability to nurture people.
You know, I filled out something recently and I had a voice message from the person to myWhatsApp because he my number.
(35:11):
Yeah.
And I was like,
That's pretty cool.
He took that time out to shoot me through that really simplified thing.
Now the reality is it was probably a prerecorded voice message, templated out systems, etcetera.
But the feeling for me was like, wow, like that's someone who shows attention to detail.
And I'll always lean in.
(35:31):
If somebody shows up and has that attention of, hey, I'm here, what can I do?
I'm here like really looking forward to, man, you've got my attention.
I want to go back on just a second ago how you were talking about like raising prices aswell.
And like something just clicked as you were talking was I talked to people who aren'tadvertising and I'm like, put $1,500 a month into advertising, you'll get leads.
(35:52):
And it's such a no brainer for me, but they're like, no, can't do it.
But I'm like, here's the proof.
And they still won't do it.
Mine, when we were just talking about like, always I'll try and go up in prices and I getscared and come back down.
I was like, I could triple my ad spend and be spending four and a half grand every month,be getting 90 leads a month, you know, theoretically instead of 30.
(36:14):
And then I've got like 60 extra ones to try with essentially to try this.
If one of those people books at double the price, you've covered the ad spend for thewhole month.
So it's like, but I think it's like without having this conversation, without having otherpeople to be able to tell you that, that would never come into my brain at all.
Eats.
(36:35):
It's risky, number one, because it's unknown.
Number two, and I know this well because my very first business was a gym.
And it was in South Australia, Adelaide.
And Adelaide is a really unique market where if you tap into the right core group ofpeople, you can grow to referrals.
I didn't do any real marketing.
(36:57):
I had a regular slot on 5AA.
So got my voice out there, but my minions, my clients were out there.
One became two, became four, became eight, and just grew naturally.
Now, when I launched online, going back now 12 years, and I was launching a uh high-techcoaching offer, I had a really rude awakening.
Cause I'm like, I gotta pay to put myself out there, number one.
(37:20):
I'm like, do people know my expertise?
This was my feeling.
was like, I went from a small pond.
I was the biggest fish in a small pond.
Succeeded really well.
And now I'm a very small fish in a huge pond that no one knows me.
And I'm like,
feel this is really challenging my ego because I'm so used to referrals.
Referrals are great.
Let's not knock the value of referrals.
(37:40):
But when it comes to doing business, I always say this, and it's not that we're playingpokies, but if you put a dollar into an ATM and you got $5 back or $10 back, I don't know
about you, but I'll be sitting there all day.
Putting dollar coins in.
And the reality is there's a cost to business.
There's a cost to market.
There's a cost of sale, cost per league, cost per close, whatever it might be.
(38:03):
But if you can afford to put in a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, 300 bucks to generate a dealwithin an audience that doesn't know you yet, that let's say is maybe more ideal, is
willing to transact a little higher.
Like if you can close a 10K, 8K, 7K deal off of the back of putting three or $400 into anad, not saying it will cost that much.
(38:23):
Worst case scenario.
For me, it's a no brainer, but that does come again with a level of inherent risk becauseit's unknown, which is why you need the expertise.
You shouldn't do this yourself.
Get the skillset and or pay someone to do it who again, finding the person who can do itwell for you is kind of another ball game altogether.
But I think educate yourself, put yourself in the market and again, have a set period oftime, be willing to fail and kind of look at the money is gone.
(38:50):
If I put 1.5, put 1.
If I put $1,500 into ad spend a month, commit to putting in the $4,500 and write it off.
Detach yourself from it.
Worst case scenario, you don't get a deal.
That's not gonna happen if you put that money in there and do it right.
The best case scenario of that is you're still gonna learn.
(39:12):
You're gonna grow.
You're gonna get an education.
Now, you don't have to spend that sort of money to get educated, but the reality is ifyou're spending 1,500 bucks a month on ads, you're going to get...
something exactly how much you get will come to the skill set of speed to lead, nurturingleads, communicating with how you're taking them through that process and then learning
(39:33):
how to condense that process to get them to that point of decision, collecting thedeposit.
Happy days.
Okay.
If one takeaway, okay, so I feel like a lot of people are kind of stuck between that, say10 to 15 grand per month.
ah Most people I speak to, especially in like say wedding photography, videography, theywant to stick to 30, 35 weddings a year, because they want to be able to serve their
(39:55):
clients well, most of them are kind of doing the editing themselves and they they are likethey're artists like you're talking about.
um
What would be one of the first things you did if you were kind of stuck at that kind of 10to 15 grand mark?
You do want to exponentially, I guess, grow, but you don't have more days.
You can't essentially book more weddings because you're not comfortable with that.
(40:17):
Simple, up your prices.
That's uncomfortable for folks.
get that.
But life is an experiment and you don't get different results if you don't try differentstrategies.
If time is not a lever that you wanna change, IE you're capped it, I can only do 35 slotsin a year, then the only pivot we can make to is price.
(40:43):
Now there's strategy around how to
position an offer in a way that converts.
There's an art form to that just as much as you might have an art form to how you shoot,how you edit to create the artwork that you do.
There's an art form to creating offers that actually sell and convert and get people tolean in and want what you have.
(41:08):
The way that I see it is this.
You need to get clear on
what you want, yes, but why do you want that?
And also you might get to the point of saying, well, I've been doing this for five years.
I want the challenge.
It could be as simple as that.
want to see what's possible for me, or I want to get featured in Vogue.
(41:30):
The guy who shot our wedding, maybe won't mention names, when we first met him, he didsome shooting for us, like back streets of Sydney.
He wasn't really working.
He wasn't well known in the industry.
And now he's gone through to shoot some really
big name celebrities overseas.
He purposely moved himself over to Europe and UK and he's crushing it.
(41:51):
Okay.
Simply because of his commitment to growth, but he had a very clear vision of, he told usone day I'm going to be shooting these people at this sort of price point.
Cause I was quizzing him, know, my marketing, you know, sales background.
I'm like, cool.
Like what's the steps?
What are you going to do?
And he's very crystal clear around that.
Yeah.
So I think it's really important to understand what do you actually want, but why do youwant it?
Cause I think if you have a big enough, why the how doesn't really matter.
(42:14):
as long as it's not crossing your personal values and beliefs and what it is you want foryour life.
But yeah, pricing for me is absolutely the pivot we would look at.
Perfect.
I think that plays really well because like people will say like, no, if you're aphotographer, videographer, whoever you have to be luxury, but like also that doesn't suit
everyone.
True.
Like I really like the mid-market where I am.
I'm really confident in we should be charging thousands more than what we do.
(42:38):
So the product you get, I am so stoked with, you're to be so happy with.
And also like knowing that I'm going to book the amount of weddings I need to every month,just, it just works really well for me.
And like, I don't have this ego anymore when I was, you know, younger starting out oryou're
want to do is, like you said, shoot the Vogue weddings and everything like that.
But now as you kind of get older, you're like, I don't actually need that.
(42:59):
Like, I enjoy the work I do.
It gives me the money that I need to be able to support my family.
And that's enough.
Like, I like that.
But then there's obviously other people in their journey that everyone's got differenttrajectories as well.
But yeah, I'm definitely over the farce of like, everyone needs to be a luxury, you know,wedding photographer in charge, hundreds of thousands of dollars, but...
that's probably not suited for everyone either.
(43:20):
And so I think it is like getting really clear on where you want to be within theindustry.
Yeah, I mean, this business we're talking about, it is a lifestyle business because it'san extension of your own creative self.
People don't go into photography, I assume.
I don't know this to become multimillionaires.
It's a different vehicle.
It's an art form.
(43:41):
You are literally creating art.
You are dancing with it.
No two weddings are the same.
Yes, you have a style.
Yes, you have a way of shooting and working with people.
But I think charging more and or earning more
is not a bad thing.
Money is a tool.
It is something that we can use to better not only ourselves, but also those people whoare around us.
(44:06):
Money is a tool that we can use for good.
And I think a lot of people, if you have a resistance to that, then we would say, what doneed to do to heal that relationship to money at a core root level?
Because money is a very emotive thing.
I was working with a client recently and he stuck at a pretty good price point, working asa remote closer.
(44:30):
And his peers are all progressing and making more and doing really well.
Like I'm talking, you know, around 30 to 50 K a month as a remote closer, very good money.
And he's slowly like, he hit this kind of ceiling point and now he's slowly pulling backdown.
And so we went through this really simple process with his eyes closed to speak out loud.
I feel comfortable.
(44:52):
I feel safe earning this much per month.
And we keep going down, down, down, down all the way to zero.
His safety around money wasn't there because of some childhood things that he'd gonethrough in his upbringing.
But we went through and we cleared that.
I use a lot of hypnotherapy, a lot of other work to help reset, rewire the mind'srelationship to money.
(45:15):
But again, growth is tactical.
It's internal.
It's strategic, it's spiritual, it's all those things combined.
think it's really understanding yourself.
And then again, getting that support wherever you feel is your sticking point today.
Get support there, solve that problem and then solve the next problem and then solve thenext problem as you continually grow.
(45:37):
And then one day like you, you look back, cause we've shared this story and you can'tbelieve what you've done.
Compared to where you were for a number of years and what you've achieved in very quickperiod of time.
once you look back, it's like, wow, that's cool.
And you're just like, I wish I had done that 10 years ago.
Like why?
Totally.
It's funny, like I was doing that as well recently with my own mentor and I had this bigaha moment.
(45:59):
was like, ugh, that's good, but it really hurts because I wish two years ago, it's like,no, now's the perfect time.
Best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, got it?
Second best time is now.
Take action today.
And we've been obviously creating a ton of content over the last couple of months around,you know, what we're to be releasing.
(46:20):
ah But essentially, I'm very big and transparent of like, I definitely don't knowanything.
And I've not everything.
And I've kind of gone to like branding, sales, NLP, and like different people fordifferent aspects of my business.
And that has been like the big fundamental challenge, like actually changed to mybusiness.
And so, like obviously we're gonna be releasing your module um coming out soon as well.
(46:44):
What are we gonna delve more into like your module in this course?
Well, we're gonna do two modules.
You get a bonus module for signing up and that's gonna be all around mindset, upgradingmindset, upgrading identity, working through those internal blocks that you need to
address.
Fundamentally, if you don't address that first, good luck.
(47:06):
You're gonna be literally losing four and a half grand and getting some really goodlessons and not the success you want.
So that's gonna be a bonus module.
But in the sales marketing element, what we're really gonna dive into is the technicalskillset of
how do we do this?
And creating a very clear roadmap for people that they can literally follow the bouncingball based on where they're at.
(47:27):
And we're gonna customize that based on exactly what they need.
So looking at the front end in terms of how do we nurture the leads?
What's the speed to lead?
What do need to do?
What are the systems?
What are the simple things we need to do?
to get them onto a call.
And then once they're on a call, how do we pre-qualify?
How do we understand?
How do we do discovery?
All these things we're gonna teach in very real time.
(47:48):
So that the end of that module, you can literally walk away with that, plug and play.
We might even do a bonus downloadable PDF or whatever they need to take with them toconfidently go in and work on whatever part you need to work on today.
And then start to stack those wins and those learnings so we can get you to that point.
Ideally, we wanna get you closing at least 50 % better.
(48:11):
But my goal ultimately would be getting to a point where you're 100 % confident with yourclosing, you're closing more deals, it's feeling fun, it's not feeling sleazy, it's not
feeling awkward, it's feeling really natural.
And now you feel stoked because you're booking out, maybe you're getting a waiting list,maybe you're at this situation where then you can start to decide now where do I wanna
take my business.
(48:32):
Cashflow is king.
don't know that's politically correct these days, but it is king.
That's the old saying we used to say.
And I think having weddings booked and having that really healthy cashflow flowing in, notjust immediately, but kind of like scheduled out as well.
Now we've got the capacity to sit back and reflect, okay, now that we've solved thisproblem, where do we wanna grow?
(48:56):
Exactly.
And I love like tying in the mindset piece as well, because you can do all the salespieces, you can rebrand and spend $10,000 on rebranding.
But if your headspace is still I'm worth this much, all you're going to do is startgetting back down to this client, but I spent $10,000 on branding.
True.
So I think it is really cool to be able to like, yeah, that I feel like is a massiveunlock until you've kind of worked that piece out, or it will just kind of be bouncing
(49:17):
between mindset sales back to mindset sales, like it's never kind of a finished point.
True.
It's just like continual growth.
evolution of growth.
And what I was going to say is this, is that there will be one thing in that module thatwill make you thousands of dollars.
How do I know that?
Your living proof.
I created one sales flow, do this, follow this, do that.
(49:41):
And you booked an extra $100,000 off that one sales flow.
So my whole mentality of business is the treasure's there.
It's hidden not from us, it's hidden for us.
oh
Go find it, get the tool, get the skillset, practice it, put it into play, get thefeedback, be part of a cohort, submit your challenges and your questions.
(50:03):
Hey, this happened, what do I do now?
It's honestly a series of little pivots, little 1 % improvers that once you kind of clickit in place, and we're not talking like 100 % get it right, we're talking 51%.
You just need to get that little bit past tipping point.
Now we're running, now we're on the board and now it's really fun.
lot of you talking about community a second ago, like I can even imagine a world wherepeople are recording their sales call and like, guys, what did I do wrong here?
(50:28):
And like just getting that feedback because that was like, I'd send you my like fathomwould record it, I'd send it to you.
And I'm like, I did great.
And you're like, like you didn't ask for sale or anything.
I was like, I had a good conversation.
Maybe we should do that in the cohort.
Maybe we should actually do live reviews.
Yeah, I think it'd be awesome.
Like just like we're trying to everyone up together.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's not going to be personal attacks or anything.
(50:50):
It's like this is what you could do better.
And the thing is we're all on the same journey.
We're playing at different levels, different price points, but we're all facing thefundamental same challenges in business.
Business is not all that different.
Okay, yeah, if you're working $100 billion, I mean, your complexity of business is gonnalook a little different, but fundamentally, people have a problem, we have a solution, how
(51:13):
do we connect the dots?
And quite often it's mindset, standing in the way, right?
I've seen people I've worked with before they've worked with me.
actively like, I'm not comfortable to take your money.
I'm like, why take the freaking money?
They want your help.
They're ready to move forward.
Like it's really fun.
Like I think if we can remove the complexity, remove the sense of business is hard,money's hard, that no one's getting married.
(51:38):
Like once we shift your perspective and we give you the tool set, the skillset to moveforward.
um Now you've actually got something you can refer to and pull out.
Oh, they said this.
What did Jay say?
Okay, let's look, refer real quick.
and you can have your notes up on the screen.
Exactly.
While you're doing Zoom call, right?
To then obviously refer to, and it's an ever process of learning.
But again, once you dial this in, once you're at 51%, it becomes so much more easier.
(52:02):
Love it, mate.
All right, Jay, where can everyone find you if they're searching for you online apart fromthe online course and cohort coming up?
I would say Instagram is probably the best at Jgearing.
Okay, awesome, mate.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for tuning in to the WEDCO podcast.
If you love this episode, don't forget to subscribe, follow and share it with yourfriends.
We'd love to hear your thoughts, so leave a review or connect with us on social media.
(52:24):
New episodes drop every week, so be sure to join us next time for more weddinginspiration, tips and stories.
Until then, happy planning and we'll see you soon.
Welcome to the Wedco podcast, your ultimate guide to the wedding world.
Whether you're a bride, groom or wedding vendor, this is the place to be.
Join us as we dive into real stories, expert advice and behind the scenes insights to helpyou plan the perfect day.
So grab a seat and let's celebrate love, connection and creativity together.
Before we get into this episode, I'd love to ask you a super quick and easy favor.
(00:24):
If you're enjoying the Wedco podcast, please hit that follow button on Apple, Spotify orYouTube.
It might seem small, but it makes a huge difference in helping the podcast grow and meansI can keep bringing on amazing vendors to share their insights with you.
Thank you so much for your support.
It truly means the world.
Hello and welcome to the word co podcast.
Today I've got Jay gearing on the couch with us in the studio.
(00:44):
Thanks so much for coming in.
uh We're doing a little series here.
Like obviously in the past we've had, I've been traveling around to different venues.
We've had the best vendors, you know, in Southeast Queensland and byron on the podcast.
but I'm still getting more and more questions every day about like, there's just vendorsthat aren't booking weddings.
And I feel like still more and more vendors are struggling to kind of book out these days.
(01:07):
And so a little backstory, like Jay and I started working together.
I'd kind of done the ads things.
I was getting the leads.
Everyone told me that I should jump on a Zoom call and that means I'll book every singlelead and I wasn't.
So that's where kind of Jay came into the conversation.
Do you wanna give like a little bit of an introduction about like why?
would I, as a wedding vendor, come to speak to you, Jay?
(01:28):
Mates, very good question.
And what I would say is this, everything in business is a skillset and a mindset.
Yes, you need systems to help you deliver those skills in a specific way to get a certainoutcome.
But in simple answer, I would say if you don't feel like you're reaching your fullpotential in terms of growth, in terms of scaling, in terms of hitting those goals that
(01:53):
you have for yourself, then it's definitely something we can work on.
And it's normally something to do with an internal belief structure around what youbelieve is possible because of your past experience or maybe who you look to into the
marketplace, the industry, et cetera.
But quite often as well, it's as simple 1 % pivot or shift as to how you're doingsomething.
(02:13):
So when we first worked together, I know we were chatting through your process, lackthereof.
The one thing is you really bring a good presence on screen.
So I know you had a great rapport and connection with people, but I was like,
mate, what's happening next?
Like at the end of the call, talk me through it.
And you're like, well, nothing.
I'm just kind of like waiting for them to come back to me.
(02:36):
And I think that's a very normal, unfortunately, response for a lot of people in sales.
um Having worked in this field now for close on 20 years, I would say there's very fewpeople that love sales.
Most people would probably prefer to pick their eyes out with chopsticks, then go throughand actually get to that point of transacting.
But
(02:57):
Everything in life is a transaction.
Everything's a sale, so to speak, in terms of negotiating at what we need, what we cangive, et cetera.
And I think when you learn the skillset and you have a systemized way of approaching anddelivering that, you can take something that's very complex and or scary and make it
simple, easy, and actually get the results you want.
(03:19):
I think that's very funny.
Like so many things you said was like, that's me, that's me.
And it's like, I went to, you know, I wasn't getting any leads.
went to the, to the ads agency, all of a sudden I'm getting 30, 40 leads every month.
And then I'd be like, send the email, hope they book me.
And like, still, it still went really well.
Like I was probably booking one in probably every seven or every eight, you know, weddingswould book me.
(03:42):
But I was so scared.
Like they give me their phone number and I'm like,
I don't want call them because I'm going to be annoying them.
I'm going to be salesy.
Like you just think of the person who tried to sell to you at one point during your lifeand you're like, I'm going to be that person.
Um, and so there are so many things when you're not used to that, like they just push backagainst you all the time.
Um, and so like, maybe we can start from, uh we're just assuming that people are gettingthe leads now.
(04:09):
Yep.
And okay, so we're getting our 30 leads a month.
Where can we like, how can we
across that, I don't want to be salesy, but how can we go from converting more of those 30leads that you're paying money for to actually being an ideal client that you want to work
with?
Yeah, really good question.
wherever you are at in your business evolution, that's good enough.
(04:32):
We start with what you have and we work out what's the one or two things we can do better.
And everything's a test.
Everything's a hypothesis.
Hey, let's try this.
This response didn't work.
Let's try this.
It's a series of pivoting how you're operating within your business.
So we start with where you're at.
And again, this is assuming, like you said, that people have leads coming in.
(04:53):
You need to be attracting a good volume of leads.
and you need to make sure that those leads are the ideal type of leads you want to workwith, or at least be looking for the solution that you offer.
From that point of view, we really want to get into this mindset of how do we go fromwanting something from these leads to just providing value.
(05:16):
Remembering that if somebody goes to a gym and they sign up for a gym membership, they'renot there that day to sign up for membership in three months time.
They're interested.
If they're at your front door, if they're inquiring, there's a level of interest.
There's a level of need that they have.
And I think as creators, what we need to really do is shift our mindset around, well, I'mtrying to get something from these people to, how can I serve them?
(05:45):
And sales is really just connecting a problem with a solution.
And quite often it's...
process to get to that point.
I know that not every person's ready to purchase the moment they knock on your front dooror fill out a lead form, whatever it might be.
But when we start to approach leads and or sales from a point of, hey, what can I help youwith?
(06:08):
What are your challenges?
What are your needs?
What are your problems?
We go on with a sense of curiosity, sales can become fun.
And it's something where literally like any normal conversation, we are just talking,we're working out, okay, what is it you're looking for?
And when are you getting married?
What is your ideal budget?
And these sorts of things that once we start to understand who they are, what they want,we can very seamlessly start to shift them through a process that to them will feel
(06:32):
normal, natural, and coming from that mindset of how can I help you?
How can I serve you?
Sales becomes fun.
Because now you're in position where you are helping someone who is probably stressed out,has probably got a lot on their plate.
they're working to some sort of budget for the whole wedding.
Let's face it.
I know when I got married, I think we went over by a hundred percent in terms of our firstbudget to what we actually spend.
(06:56):
um You know, getting married is a joyful thing, but it's also a stressful thing.
Locking in vendors and locations and photographers and trying to kind of coordinate that.
And if you can step in to help them and alleviate and simplify the decision, then...
people will want to do business with you.
(07:17):
Yes, branding is important, absolutely.
You need to be good at what you do.
You need to speak to their wants, desires.
They've got to like you and your work on some level.
But beyond that, there's no reason why if they're there, there's no reason why youshouldn't be able to close them in by providing a solution and helping them move to that
next point.
(07:38):
think at the start, we even talked about transparency and then also different containersof clients approaching you.
So I would almost be too scared in the past where I have all these leads come to me andI'm too scared to ask them, are you ready to book now or are you just searching for
everyone?
(07:58):
And I remember before I jumped on a call, we were talking about that and I would startsending a message to people an hour beforehand, like, hey guys, just so I know, are you
actually ready to book?
wedding photographer and videographer?
are you just kind of, you you're just looking around at the moment, just so that I cankind of guide you in the conversation, where we need to go and offer you value for what
stage you're in.
(08:18):
But do want to talk about like even the different kind of, I guess, containers withinwithin calls that you can kind of?
Yeah, just feels a more transparency that I've given my my couples now, the more open itis, and it doesn't feel sleazy.
Totally, totally.
Yeah, I remember when we first chatted, I think it was at the gym.
We were doing a workout together.
Doing carbs.
(08:39):
And you were talking through how many people you weren't closing.
I was like, run me through your numbers.
How many leads are you How many calls?
I was like, what are you booking?
And I was like, everything's great from like a lead gen price point of view, but closerate, dude, you're leaving so much money on the table.
And for you, we identified two things.
And that was number one, you weren't identifying for them to self identify where they wereat in their...
(09:01):
buying cycle process.
And then secondly was, well, next step.
What's the next step of this conversation?
So I think it's really purposeful to yes, gather as much relevant information that you canfrom your leads.
You don't want to have like a super long lead form because...
that's gonna create resistance.
(09:22):
I know you've tested that you've gone from long lead forms to simple name, number, email.
Yeah, exactly.
ah There's a trade off anytime we have less resistance, we get more volume, but notnecessarily better quality.
The greater the resistance in terms of information they have to give over.
Yes, they become more and more qualified as they go through the process.
But it's finding that magic flow between the right volume.
(09:43):
at the right resistance relative to how much time you've got to qualify those leads andjump on calls and do Zooms, et cetera.
But it's really simple to have some sort of pre-qualification process, whether it's in thelead form, the application form they're filling out, or if it's on the email that you send
out before the actual Zoom call.
(10:03):
It's really smart because now you're going in with the right understanding of, these guysare almost ready or they're at the very first stages of gathering information.
that will determine and give you a posture as how to go into that sales call or that meetand greet.
We call it a discovery call.
(10:24):
And it's really important because if you don't know where they're at, and sometimes it'ssimple as a, guys, like really keen to know like where are we at?
What have you booked so far?
Because you'll understand the best process.
You've talked to me about this in terms of when and how to book what and a reverseengineer some of that.
it gives you a really good posture to take the pressure off the call and say, look today,the purpose of this call is this, right?
(10:48):
And as we get through this, if you feel like this is a good fit, well, then I'll explainwhere we go to from here.
So having this sort of structured flow that feels normal, feels natural based on them,based on where they're at in their buying cycle.
But that's not to say once you get better at communication and I'm a master of NLP, mastertrainer,
(11:10):
Hypnosis as well.
So I use a lot of different language patterns to help unlock things in people that Maybethey didn't know for themselves Maybe they don't think they're ready to make a decision
But if they had the one piece of information they think they need, yep, they could get tothat point on that call So again, we start at where you're at with your level of skill set
(11:33):
your level of leads the quality of your leads We work out what we need to do to improvethat
And then like anything, we just start to reverse engineer towards the end output of whatyou want to actually achieve.
What is it that we need to do that's going to help get you the best outcome relative totime and or what you want to put out in terms of sales calls and all those things.
(11:57):
Yeah, I think even one bit of advice she said was, like, if they're on the call with you,I will talk to the couple now and be like, like, I'm guessing like, you've already seen
you like our work, and you already love our work.
And they'll be like, yes, like, even that in the past, felt wrong to ask them.
But they're like, no, there's a reason why they're jumping onto a zoom call with you inthe first place.
And just acknowledging, even like, allowing them to understand, like, that's why they'reon the phone with you as well.
(12:22):
Totally.
Okay, and then so in the in the past, I would be like, cool, thank you so much for thechat.
Chat soon.
Like how should we kind of be ending those calls?
Do think?
Yeah, look, we used to sell million dollar sales scripts for people who are remote closersor they're solo entrepreneurs in their business looking to close better deals, more deals,
(12:44):
et cetera.
I think people are moving away from that now.
I've seen a huge shift towards away from scripts to almost like scriptless selling.
That doesn't mean you don't have a process, a sales flow process in terms of kind of likechoose your own adventure.
If you go here, this is the next step.
If we need to backtrack here, then this is the next step.
So you need to have a strategy and a system around how you're leading and nurturing thesepeople through that process.
(13:10):
So what I would say is this, um how you frame the start of a call will greatly impact howyou end the call.
And obviously the next point of contact after that.
So I always like to start calls with some general rapport.
We lead into...
um
this is the purpose, kind of give like a structure of this is what we're gonna do today,we're gonna explore this.
(13:33):
And then I kind of handed it over to them and say, what do you wanna get out of this calltoday?
What do you need?
What's your wants?
Where you're at and you sort of start to gather that information.
If you do that well, then what happens is people will generally give you the informationthat you need to help them get to a point of making a decision.
And for me, coming from the coaching space, consulting, working both...
(13:57):
business to consumer, works with probably over 5,000 people in different businesses I'velaunched and run.
So then obviously working with businesses as well.
um This process of discovery, genuinely wanting to know what it is, are there problems,their needs, their wants, gives us the information to literally solve that problem for
them.
(14:17):
So the next point of, I guess, step in the process would be taking them through to,whether that's a point of sale,
if they're almost ready, if you feel like you've got enough information, uh if they're notyet there, then you might have a deflection piece, which is kind of like, go away, do some
homework, or you can send them some things.
But I would always look to like keep that nurturing contact going, whether you rebook acall, if they're not ready to move forward.
(14:42):
But I think a lot of people are actually afraid to ask for the sale.
Have you heard enough today to make a decision?
And they might be like, I think so.
Okay, cool.
Well, here's where we go to next.
We require this for a deposit.
These are the payment terms.
This is where we go to.
And generally speaking, if you've done a really good job at understanding their needs onceand kind of handling objections that they come up, there's no reason why you can't move
(15:07):
forward to taking a deposit and getting that booked in.
Sure.
And it's like not being scared to ask those questions.
And yeah, because like even like you get to that point, like I've had a few lately, whereI'm like, cool, this is usually what we do for the deposit.
Does that work for you?
And they're like, oh, we're a bit tight because we just booked our venue last week.
Like, okay, that's fine.
(15:28):
Like, what would work for you?
if we if we did two different payments of half of that amount, would that work?
And they're like, that's perfect.
So even just like little things like that being able to ask, and then you're getting offthe phone call.
I don't think people are still booking on the actual call, but like I'll be sending themthrough like the formal quote at the end of the call.
Like I've just sent that through to you and then they kind of go on and do that likestraight away afterwards.
(15:49):
But it's like they have committed, but there's still this feeling where you get off theend of a call and you're like, hope they booked.
But it definitely, does like just having that open discussion with people.
feel like they're more confident in your services.
Because in the past, like, cool, we had a really cool conversation with a photographer.
but there's no, I guess, real confidence in the actual business built up around thatrapport building.
(16:12):
Yeah, for me, I always see selling is kind of like dating.
Yep.
Right.
Flashback to, you know, dancing at the disco when we were 16, 17, 18 years old, or evengoing up, you know, up to someone in the club or whatever it might be.
There's always this level of apprehension.
It's a little bit awkward.
It's kind like, well, kind of like you, do you like me?
Yeah.
(16:32):
There's always going to be a natural element of discovery, shall we say.
But once you start to do the dance with someone,
ah There's no reason why you can't lead confidently.
They're there with a problem.
You're there to help them solve that problem.
And the problem is this, they want to lock a photographer in.
They need to make a decision.
(16:53):
So every sales call for me is kind of like a breakthrough of sorts.
I need to help coach someone to that point of decision.
What is it that they need?
And what you did really well there was you kind of took their objection of, well, we can'tafford that.
Okay, cool.
No worries.
what can you afford?
It shows a real openness and it's a very clever kind of questioning strategy of workingwith them to show that you are willing to tailor the whole experience.
(17:22):
And they'll get a good feel for that straight from uh the very moment they jump on a callwith you.
Yeah, because they also might have just gone away being embarrassed that they couldn't payfor the deposit now.
And then that's the end of it.
And there was no fault of anyone's.
But it's just they didn't want to come to you to tell you that they couldn't afford thatdeposit.
um Which I it does happen a fair bit where like, people are too scared to tell you thatyou're too expensive for them.
(17:43):
Like, that's fine.
Like, there's different budgets for everyone.
We might be able to work out like I've got, you know, different lead shooters that havedifferent rates, maybe we can work someone else in.
But I feel like you need to be more and more transparent yourself to allow them to do thatas well.
Yeah, a good way to do this might be to kind of like sort your leads into buckets.
Okay, let's call it a just getting started looking for information bucket versus done allthe research.
(18:05):
We're at that point here now where we need to make a decision.
It's come down between you and two other photographers, for example, something that I knowreally helped you was we kind of looked at your leads as being in two different buckets.
One is like, we're just getting going with our research, we're gathering information.
The other bucket is we've done our research.
We're at that point where we're looking to actually
transact.
Now they won't say that.
(18:26):
Yeah, but they'll be almost ready to buy.
There'll be a couple of factors standing in the way.
And that might be something you want to kind of like tease out at the beginning of thecall.
Okay, cool.
I noticed you said that you're almost ready.
Like where you're at?
Yeah, exactly.
Have you booked this?
And there were certain questions that I know that you would ask that would tell you, okay,this is where they're kind of sitting.
This is my gauge.
And at that point, when we lead into this, the purpose of the call, you might want toinclude something like, and at the end of this call,
(18:53):
once we've been through everything, this is where we go to from here.
If you feel like it's a good fit, we can do this, we can get you started, I'll explain thenext steps.
Does that make sense?
How does that feel?
So you always want to kind of bounce it back to them, but people are looking forleadership, they're looking for guidance because again, as creators, you do this for your
living.
(19:13):
You're at weddings almost every week of the year or whatever it might be.
And for these guys, let's say hopefully most people get married once, if not twice.
there's this element of like, this is a one-time event.
For them, it's a huge amount of pressure.
So I do see the opportunity for you to come in to ease that pressure and make thedecision-making process easy.
And they want to feel comfortable with you.
(19:34):
But if you do that well, there's no reason why you can't close the deals.
Yeah, for sure, uh
All right, now we talked about, I guess, the phone call a little bit.
um One thing that I still haven't broken through, and I feel like this would be a lot ofcreators in the wedding space, would be, okay, I wouldn't pay X amount of dollars for
wedding photos, but I want to be a luxury wedding photographer and I want to charge thatamount.
(19:56):
And then it's really hard for me to get on a phone call or a Zoom call and be like, no,you should pay this for me, know, like 100 % you should.
But there is like, there is this thing in the back of my mind like, I would never pay forthat.
So like that's, know you're kind of especially around like mindset as well.
Is there anything we can do to kind of help unlock that a little bit for us?
(20:17):
Mate, this is so common for every person in business.
The level of your success will directly link back to the comfort level that you havearound that success.
Literally at a nervous system level, you're gonna have unconscious programming, identityissues, belief issues around what's possible, but also what you feel worthy of.
(20:41):
There's, it's not words, it's science, it's backed by neuroscience.
We know that the level of your success is always reflected by that internal relationshipto self and also to money.
So there's two elements to this.
uh Element one is we have to model someone.
You've got to choose a goal.
You've got to choose a number.
So if you're currently shooting at 5K per wedding and there's someone you look up to inthe space who's got great branding, they've positioned themselves really well.
(21:10):
and your goal is to go, let's say eight to 10K a wedding.
That's a big jump.
Right?
So we start small.
We reverse engineer that goal to create a very clear pathway that helps you get therewithin a realistic timeframe.
The clients I work with, typically ask them to half that timeframe to get them reallyuncomfortable.
Because to change, you've got to get uncomfortable.
(21:32):
So the quicker you get used to being uncomfortable in that process of growing andevolving, the quicker you can start to step into, and you've got to remember,
you just need to hit one home run.
You just need to close one deal at like 6K and then at 7K and then at 8K and you're like,holy moly.
That's possible.
(21:53):
So from that point of view, you've got to have this kind of like, where do I want to getto from a pricing point of view?
Remembering that you are not your client.
That's the biggest lesson I would say is do not think or assume that because you wouldn'tpay that or you wouldn't see the worth in that.
that somebody else doesn't.
(22:14):
Pricing is highly subjective.
What's expensive for me is cheap for somebody else.
So I think if you're clear around kind of like where it is you want to go to, then reverseengineering, that's really simple.
We look at, okay, how many weddings do you want to book per year?
And then we break down the math of you're currently charging 5k.
What do we need to do to up your price to 6k?
(22:37):
We call it a lifetime value of a client.
So what's the maximum sort of average price that we could get people to with upsells andcross sells and add-ons that they might want.
And look, if we increase your price by only a thousand dollars per wedding, and you've got35 weddings in a year, you've just made it extra $35,000.
So from that point of view, we want to have a very clear outcome of where do we want toget to, who in the space is already doing that, that we can kind of model it from kind of
(23:02):
an internal perspective point of view.
And then let's remove the emotion.
Let's get uncomfortable first.
Let's remove the emotion and let's ask to challenge that internal reality with areversible plan that can actually get us there within a set timeframe.
You just need one home run and then the brain will take that on as being, okay, that'sactually possible for me.
(23:25):
And all of a sudden you're like, I'm worth that.
Like they paid for it, they paid for it, they paid for it.
Like all of a sudden that is your new worth.
Because other people have.
And it's important to remember as well that people will tell you what their max budgetpoint is.
They never reveal their actual budget point.
They'll always reduce that number.
It's a psychological thing that we all do.
Like if you're gonna go bid for a house, you're not gonna walk in and offer the absolutetop dollar that you can afford.
(23:50):
If you really want it, you're gonna go in there and pay what you think it's worth.
But if you have to outbid someone, I mean, I've done it before.
I've bought a place at auction before.
I spent...
a lot more than I really wanted to, but I really wanted that place.
So from a price point, you can really create a range of, okay, my ideal client sits heresomewhere between 5,000 and 8,000.
(24:12):
And then how do we create some products upsells strategy to just put it before them?
And say, hey, this is our base package, but we offer this and we offer this.
As a rule of thumb, you wanna have at least two or three different price points.
that are reverse engineered and tailored to suit your goal, to stretch your belief inyourself, and then start to fine tune that as you go along.
(24:37):
It's funny you say that because like there's been times where I've got inquiries and I waslike, yep, they're going to book me and then I'll find out like a week later they haven't.
And then I've got like friends that will charge like double what I do and they bookedthem.
my whole thing has been like, it must've been too expensive.
And then my buddy is like, book that couple.
Like, you so it's, you never really know.
But the first thing that will come to your mind was that it was too expensive, but youmight've been too cheap.
(25:01):
They might've seen you and seen like your, like what you were charging.
And they're like, well, I had this in mind for what I wanted to pay.
So you mustn't be as good as that.
um But it can be, it can definitely be scary.
ah
this.
Most people sit around what price point as a photographer?
say photo, like I think five grand is safe to say like kind of that mid level.
(25:22):
And I feel like there's a lot of people, there's a majority of the industry would bearound that mark.
And top tier would be like eight to 12.
yeah, something like that for sure like depending on like, you know, if you're in Sydneyor Melbourne or what type of weddings and niches you're in.
Yeah, like yeah
The reality is the mid tier market is more competitive because more people are comfortableto stay at that price point.
(25:47):
Sometimes the craziest things can happen when you choose to fish in a bigger pond.
In terms of price point, it's smaller in terms of competition, but bigger in terms ofopportunity.
And I've seen that time and time again, like I was working with one guy in the coachingspace.
uh He was working as an SEO agency, stuck at $24,000 a month.
(26:08):
Now on paper, doing well, but frustrated because he was entirely stuck.
So the first thing we did was we tripled his prices.
He went from a thousand dollars per month to $3,000 per month on a retainer.
That was like unforeseeable, impossible, could not do it.
He was struggling to transact at a thousand dollars price point.
(26:29):
We launched some new creatives.
We reversed engineer the process of X number of leads, X number of calls, X number ofcloses.
He gets his first close.
And he channels my voice in his head because he didn't have the confidence in himself todo it.
And he gets to the end of the call.
He's like, holy, I just sold on this person at for a minimum of, and he was doing like themath in his head.
(26:52):
He went from $24,000 a month to over 45, $50,000 a month at his first growth point.
further past that now simply by upping his prices.
Now he did it with brown pants.
He was shitting himself, but this is life.
This is learning.
This is evolving.
We do it with brown pants.
(27:13):
We have to get uncomfortable.
Nothing changes unless we do.
And the reality is once we start to realize what's possible, it doesn't matter the number,whether increasing by 1%, 2%.
a 1 % improvement over a year is like a 3,700 % improvement overall.
So we overestimate what it is we think we have to do to actually get the result we want.
(27:40):
When in reality, you don't have to do that much differently.
You just have to be really intelligent and really strategic in a way that's gonna get youto your goal and have someone helping you, guiding you, encouraging you through that
process because business is lonely.
That's why it's so important to be a part of a group and or get mentorship and or get helpon any one of those 1 % whether it's sales or marketing or branding, whatever it is.
(28:03):
If you don't have the skillset, get it.
If you don't have the mindset, get it and then develop the systems around that thatactually will get you to your goal.
for sure.
And it's like, and that is coming back to like running it like a business while sayinglike, I was booking one out of every seven.
Then after like we had our, you know, coaching calls and everything, it was like one inevery five.
And if you put that into perspective, you're like, cool, now I'm booking, you know, like,it was crazy.
(28:25):
It was like $100,000 more weddings just because I went from seven to five.
on two simple shifts with your status groups.
Exactly.
So and there are so many little pieces like that along the way that you can just like pickup little bits like that too.
So like, okay, we want to we want to expand.
We've been at $5,000 forever.
Everyone wants to be in that luxury market.
They want to kind of go to that eight to 10.
In the past, I've been like, okay, once I hit 30 weddings, this is my milestone.
(28:49):
Then from that point, I'm upping my prices.
I will go through three sales calls.
None will book me.
I'm like, I'm not worth that.
Back to my safety little thing down here.
And then I'll like, it'll honestly, it'll probably take me like another six months to belike, let's go again, let's go again, know?
And like build up that confidence again.
Is there any, does it just have to be scary?
(29:10):
Is there any way we can kind of make it less scary?
Yeah, the way that we make it less scary is we increase your chances to win.
That comes down to volume of leads.
If you, the biggest challenge for most people, why they are under 10 or $15,000 a month asa photographer is probably because they're not known, number one, or known enough as they
(29:33):
could be or should be.
They're overlooked and or they're underpaid.
They're the three main reasons.
Now, if we solve those three problems, if we put you out, we...
upgrade your branding, we upgrade your presence, we use, you know, boosted ads andspecific targeted ads to actually get your imagery out in front of people that you want to
know and they want to know you now in a position where we're increasing your chance towin.
(29:57):
And it literally comes down to a numbers game.
There's four aces in a pack of cards.
If I shuffle those cards, if I told you that each one of those aces is worth $10,000.
Are you going to stop if you turn over seven cards and you don't get one?
Yeah, exactly.
You'd be crazy.
There's $40,000 in the analogy there.
You're going to turn over every single freaking card until you get the result.
(30:21):
So if we increase it, we remove the emotion, we get you uncomfortable in the sense ofputting you into, I need to learn, I'm growing every call, I'm getting better.
I'm making those little 1 % reflective iterations to how you're showing up on a call, etcetera.
Then what we're doing is you need to reframe what success and failure is.
If you get three nose, it hurts.
(30:45):
get it.
You need to iterate.
You need to show up.
need to do the reps.
Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't look like a beast overnight.
He showed up volume and reps.
And so what we can do is if you can gamify the process.
So let's say, okay, there's four aces in this pack of cards.
They're each worth $10,000.
(31:06):
What's 52 or 40,000 divided by 52, whatever it is.
Divide the total number by 52.
Don't place all of the win value and all or nothing, did I win or did I lose on the onesthat say yes.
Every no is worth money.
Why?
Because it's getting you closer and closer to that ACE that you're gonna turn over.
(31:29):
It's a numbers game.
And that's where at the beginning, when you're not so good at sales and or it's clunky andit's awkward or whatever it is, whilst we're developing the skillset and the systems to
get you there.
You just need volume.
You need to be able to go through so that you know, well, it doesn't matter.
He said, no, they said, no, but I've still got 20 people lined up that want to speak withme.
(31:50):
So I think if we can change the meaning of success and failure and gamify it, it becomes alot less emotional and you've got to run experiments, hypothesis with your business.
You've got to get help because a lot of people can't do this alone.
The best people, the best creators, the best coaches have the best help.
They outsource, they go and buy help.
Why?
(32:10):
Because they know they need the skillset.
They need to learn it.
But the reality is it is a game.
You can get better.
It doesn't take as long as you think it will.
And you need to commit to doing something for a set period of time.
I'm not talking like seven days.
I'm like minimum three months.
This is what I'm doing.
I'm showing up.
I'm trusting the process.
(32:30):
I'm putting the work in.
I'm iterating.
I'm learning.
I'm reframing.
I'm managing myself through that process.
I guarantee if you do that well for three months, you will have such a mindset shiftaround what's possible for you in your life that you will not want to stop because now you
have a taste for this is possible.
And regardless of your number in terms of weddings per year, there's always capacity forgrowth.
(32:54):
We can up your price.
We can change pivot, whatever we need to do to create a lifestyle that serves you.
Cause I know a lot of creators go into this business to support their lifestyle,flexibility of it.
But if you're gonna do it, might as do it well.
Exactly.
Yeah, have a good life.
It's like, it's crazy when you talk about the mindset before I started doing theadvertising, I was like, no one's booking weddings.
(33:15):
That's not my problem.
It's just like, no one's inquiring with me because no one's getting married anymore.
Was that a worldview for yourself?
Like this is truth for the world.
This is what's happening in the marketplace right now.
Yeah, I think so.
I think it was like, yeah, two years ago, whatever it was, I'm just like, no one's gotmoney.
ah Yeah, just no one's booking weddings.
So it's not it mustn't be anything I'm doing.
It must just be Yeah.
And then like, I started running the ads, and you're getting like 30 to 40 leads everymonth.
(33:37):
And you're like, people are getting married.
Like, you talk to other people like, nah, people aren't getting married.
Like, they are.
They're just like, they're not seeing you.
Yeah.
You're not seen, you're overlooked, you're underpaid.
You solve the first problem.
You increase the number of eyeballs on your content.
You had a very simple ad strategy, right?
Like landing to, here's what I do if you want information, fill out this form.
(33:59):
Hey Presto, yeah, we wanna work with you.
And I think what works for you as well is you gotta be a nice guy, nice person.
You've gotta really care.
And I think most creators are because they're artists at heart.
They're there to serve to...
creating, curating, stuff like that.
But I think that's what's worked well for you is you know how to build really good rapportwith people and you can't underestimate that because people buy from people that they like
(34:25):
and they trust.
If you can establish that sense of rapport early on, even with your branding, even withyour ads, even with whatever it might be, following leads up, I can't tell you the number
of people that I've worked with that have this plethora of leads coming in.
I'm like, what's your speed to lead?
I'll be usually get like one to three days.
(34:46):
I'm like, I'm like, those leads have a problem.
Yeah.
If you don't get in front of them, first to market first to call will be in front of themprobably close the deal.
Yeah.
So I think speed to lead is crucial.
You've got to have the ability to nurture people.
You know, I filled out something recently and I had a voice message from the person to myWhatsApp because he my number.
(35:11):
Yeah.
And I was like,
That's pretty cool.
He took that time out to shoot me through that really simplified thing.
Now the reality is it was probably a prerecorded voice message, templated out systems, etcetera.
But the feeling for me was like, wow, like that's someone who shows attention to detail.
And I'll always lean in.
(35:31):
If somebody shows up and has that attention of, hey, I'm here, what can I do?
I'm here like really looking forward to, man, you've got my attention.
I want to go back on just a second ago how you were talking about like raising prices aswell.
And like something just clicked as you were talking was I talked to people who aren'tadvertising and I'm like, put $1,500 a month into advertising, you'll get leads.
(35:52):
And it's such a no brainer for me, but they're like, no, can't do it.
But I'm like, here's the proof.
And they still won't do it.
Mine, when we were just talking about like, always I'll try and go up in prices and I getscared and come back down.
I was like, I could triple my ad spend and be spending four and a half grand every month,be getting 90 leads a month, you know, theoretically instead of 30.
(36:14):
And then I've got like 60 extra ones to try with essentially to try this.
If one of those people books at double the price, you've covered the ad spend for thewhole month.
So it's like, but I think it's like without having this conversation, without having otherpeople to be able to tell you that, that would never come into my brain at all.
Eats.
(36:35):
It's risky, number one, because it's unknown.
Number two, and I know this well because my very first business was a gym.
And it was in South Australia, Adelaide.
And Adelaide is a really unique market where if you tap into the right core group ofpeople, you can grow to referrals.
I didn't do any real marketing.
(36:57):
I had a regular slot on 5AA.
So got my voice out there, but my minions, my clients were out there.
One became two, became four, became eight, and just grew naturally.
Now, when I launched online, going back now 12 years, and I was launching a uh high-techcoaching offer, I had a really rude awakening.
Cause I'm like, I gotta pay to put myself out there, number one.
(37:20):
I'm like, do people know my expertise?
This was my feeling.
was like, I went from a small pond.
I was the biggest fish in a small pond.
Succeeded really well.
And now I'm a very small fish in a huge pond that no one knows me.
And I'm like,
feel this is really challenging my ego because I'm so used to referrals.
Referrals are great.
Let's not knock the value of referrals.
(37:40):
But when it comes to doing business, I always say this, and it's not that we're playingpokies, but if you put a dollar into an ATM and you got $5 back or $10 back, I don't know
about you, but I'll be sitting there all day.
Putting dollar coins in.
And the reality is there's a cost to business.
There's a cost to market.
There's a cost of sale, cost per league, cost per close, whatever it might be.
(38:03):
But if you can afford to put in a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, 300 bucks to generate a dealwithin an audience that doesn't know you yet, that let's say is maybe more ideal, is
willing to transact a little higher.
Like if you can close a 10K, 8K, 7K deal off of the back of putting three or $400 into anad, not saying it will cost that much.
(38:23):
Worst case scenario.
For me, it's a no brainer, but that does come again with a level of inherent risk becauseit's unknown, which is why you need the expertise.
You shouldn't do this yourself.
Get the skillset and or pay someone to do it who again, finding the person who can do itwell for you is kind of another ball game altogether.
But I think educate yourself, put yourself in the market and again, have a set period oftime, be willing to fail and kind of look at the money is gone.
(38:50):
If I put 1.5, put 1.
If I put $1,500 into ad spend a month, commit to putting in the $4,500 and write it off.
Detach yourself from it.
Worst case scenario, you don't get a deal.
That's not gonna happen if you put that money in there and do it right.
The best case scenario of that is you're still gonna learn.
(39:12):
You're gonna grow.
You're gonna get an education.
Now, you don't have to spend that sort of money to get educated, but the reality is ifyou're spending 1,500 bucks a month on ads, you're going to get...
something exactly how much you get will come to the skill set of speed to lead, nurturingleads, communicating with how you're taking them through that process and then learning
(39:33):
how to condense that process to get them to that point of decision, collecting thedeposit.
Happy days.
Okay.
If one takeaway, okay, so I feel like a lot of people are kind of stuck between that, say10 to 15 grand per month.
ah Most people I speak to, especially in like say wedding photography, videography, theywant to stick to 30, 35 weddings a year, because they want to be able to serve their
(39:55):
clients well, most of them are kind of doing the editing themselves and they they are likethey're artists like you're talking about.
um
What would be one of the first things you did if you were kind of stuck at that kind of 10to 15 grand mark?
You do want to exponentially, I guess, grow, but you don't have more days.
You can't essentially book more weddings because you're not comfortable with that.
(40:17):
Simple, up your prices.
That's uncomfortable for folks.
get that.
But life is an experiment and you don't get different results if you don't try differentstrategies.
If time is not a lever that you wanna change, IE you're capped it, I can only do 35 slotsin a year, then the only pivot we can make to is price.
(40:43):
Now there's strategy around how to
position an offer in a way that converts.
There's an art form to that just as much as you might have an art form to how you shoot,how you edit to create the artwork that you do.
There's an art form to creating offers that actually sell and convert and get people tolean in and want what you have.
(41:08):
The way that I see it is this.
You need to get clear on
what you want, yes, but why do you want that?
And also you might get to the point of saying, well, I've been doing this for five years.
I want the challenge.
It could be as simple as that.
want to see what's possible for me, or I want to get featured in Vogue.
(41:30):
The guy who shot our wedding, maybe won't mention names, when we first met him, he didsome shooting for us, like back streets of Sydney.
He wasn't really working.
He wasn't well known in the industry.
And now he's gone through to shoot some really
big name celebrities overseas.
He purposely moved himself over to Europe and UK and he's crushing it.
(41:51):
Okay.
Simply because of his commitment to growth, but he had a very clear vision of, he told usone day I'm going to be shooting these people at this sort of price point.
Cause I was quizzing him, know, my marketing, you know, sales background.
I'm like, cool.
Like what's the steps?
What are you going to do?
And he's very crystal clear around that.
Yeah.
So I think it's really important to understand what do you actually want, but why do youwant it?
Cause I think if you have a big enough, why the how doesn't really matter.
(42:14):
as long as it's not crossing your personal values and beliefs and what it is you want foryour life.
But yeah, pricing for me is absolutely the pivot we would look at.
Perfect.
I think that plays really well because like people will say like, no, if you're aphotographer, videographer, whoever you have to be luxury, but like also that doesn't suit
everyone.
True.
Like I really like the mid-market where I am.
I'm really confident in we should be charging thousands more than what we do.
(42:38):
So the product you get, I am so stoked with, you're to be so happy with.
And also like knowing that I'm going to book the amount of weddings I need to every month,just, it just works really well for me.
And like, I don't have this ego anymore when I was, you know, younger starting out oryou're
want to do is, like you said, shoot the Vogue weddings and everything like that.
But now as you kind of get older, you're like, I don't actually need that.
(42:59):
Like, I enjoy the work I do.
It gives me the money that I need to be able to support my family.
And that's enough.
Like, I like that.
But then there's obviously other people in their journey that everyone's got differenttrajectories as well.
But yeah, I'm definitely over the farce of like, everyone needs to be a luxury, you know,wedding photographer in charge, hundreds of thousands of dollars, but...
that's probably not suited for everyone either.
(43:20):
And so I think it is like getting really clear on where you want to be within theindustry.
Yeah, I mean, this business we're talking about, it is a lifestyle business because it'san extension of your own creative self.
People don't go into photography, I assume.
I don't know this to become multimillionaires.
It's a different vehicle.
It's an art form.
(43:41):
You are literally creating art.
You are dancing with it.
No two weddings are the same.
Yes, you have a style.
Yes, you have a way of shooting and working with people.
But I think charging more and or earning more
is not a bad thing.
Money is a tool.
It is something that we can use to better not only ourselves, but also those people whoare around us.
(44:06):
Money is a tool that we can use for good.
And I think a lot of people, if you have a resistance to that, then we would say, what doneed to do to heal that relationship to money at a core root level?
Because money is a very emotive thing.
I was working with a client recently and he stuck at a pretty good price point, working asa remote closer.
(44:30):
And his peers are all progressing and making more and doing really well.
Like I'm talking, you know, around 30 to 50 K a month as a remote closer, very good money.
And he's slowly like, he hit this kind of ceiling point and now he's slowly pulling backdown.
And so we went through this really simple process with his eyes closed to speak out loud.
I feel comfortable.
(44:52):
I feel safe earning this much per month.
And we keep going down, down, down, down all the way to zero.
His safety around money wasn't there because of some childhood things that he'd gonethrough in his upbringing.
But we went through and we cleared that.
I use a lot of hypnotherapy, a lot of other work to help reset, rewire the mind'srelationship to money.
(45:15):
But again, growth is tactical.
It's internal.
It's strategic, it's spiritual, it's all those things combined.
think it's really understanding yourself.
And then again, getting that support wherever you feel is your sticking point today.
Get support there, solve that problem and then solve the next problem and then solve thenext problem as you continually grow.
(45:37):
And then one day like you, you look back, cause we've shared this story and you can'tbelieve what you've done.
Compared to where you were for a number of years and what you've achieved in very quickperiod of time.
once you look back, it's like, wow, that's cool.
And you're just like, I wish I had done that 10 years ago.
Like why?
Totally.
It's funny, like I was doing that as well recently with my own mentor and I had this bigaha moment.
(45:59):
was like, ugh, that's good, but it really hurts because I wish two years ago, it's like,no, now's the perfect time.
Best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, got it?
Second best time is now.
Take action today.
And we've been obviously creating a ton of content over the last couple of months around,you know, what we're to be releasing.
(46:20):
ah But essentially, I'm very big and transparent of like, I definitely don't knowanything.
And I've not everything.
And I've kind of gone to like branding, sales, NLP, and like different people fordifferent aspects of my business.
And that has been like the big fundamental challenge, like actually changed to mybusiness.
And so, like obviously we're gonna be releasing your module um coming out soon as well.
(46:44):
What are we gonna delve more into like your module in this course?
Well, we're gonna do two modules.
You get a bonus module for signing up and that's gonna be all around mindset, upgradingmindset, upgrading identity, working through those internal blocks that you need to
address.
Fundamentally, if you don't address that first, good luck.
(47:06):
You're gonna be literally losing four and a half grand and getting some really goodlessons and not the success you want.
So that's gonna be a bonus module.
But in the sales marketing element, what we're really gonna dive into is the technicalskillset of
how do we do this?
And creating a very clear roadmap for people that they can literally follow the bouncingball based on where they're at.
(47:27):
And we're gonna customize that based on exactly what they need.
So looking at the front end in terms of how do we nurture the leads?
What's the speed to lead?
What do need to do?
What are the systems?
What are the simple things we need to do?
to get them onto a call.
And then once they're on a call, how do we pre-qualify?
How do we understand?
How do we do discovery?
All these things we're gonna teach in very real time.
(47:48):
So that the end of that module, you can literally walk away with that, plug and play.
We might even do a bonus downloadable PDF or whatever they need to take with them toconfidently go in and work on whatever part you need to work on today.
And then start to stack those wins and those learnings so we can get you to that point.
Ideally, we wanna get you closing at least 50 % better.
(48:11):
But my goal ultimately would be getting to a point where you're 100 % confident with yourclosing, you're closing more deals, it's feeling fun, it's not feeling sleazy, it's not
feeling awkward, it's feeling really natural.
And now you feel stoked because you're booking out, maybe you're getting a waiting list,maybe you're at this situation where then you can start to decide now where do I wanna
take my business.
(48:32):
Cashflow is king.
don't know that's politically correct these days, but it is king.
That's the old saying we used to say.
And I think having weddings booked and having that really healthy cashflow flowing in, notjust immediately, but kind of like scheduled out as well.
Now we've got the capacity to sit back and reflect, okay, now that we've solved thisproblem, where do we wanna grow?
(48:56):
Exactly.
And I love like tying in the mindset piece as well, because you can do all the salespieces, you can rebrand and spend $10,000 on rebranding.
But if your headspace is still I'm worth this much, all you're going to do is startgetting back down to this client, but I spent $10,000 on branding.
True.
So I think it is really cool to be able to like, yeah, that I feel like is a massiveunlock until you've kind of worked that piece out, or it will just kind of be bouncing
(49:17):
between mindset sales back to mindset sales, like it's never kind of a finished point.
True.
It's just like continual growth.
evolution of growth.
And what I was going to say is this, is that there will be one thing in that module thatwill make you thousands of dollars.
How do I know that?
Your living proof.
I created one sales flow, do this, follow this, do that.
(49:41):
And you booked an extra $100,000 off that one sales flow.
So my whole mentality of business is the treasure's there.
It's hidden not from us, it's hidden for us.
oh
Go find it, get the tool, get the skillset, practice it, put it into play, get thefeedback, be part of a cohort, submit your challenges and your questions.
(50:03):
Hey, this happened, what do I do now?
It's honestly a series of little pivots, little 1 % improvers that once you kind of clickit in place, and we're not talking like 100 % get it right, we're talking 51%.
You just need to get that little bit past tipping point.
Now we're running, now we're on the board and now it's really fun.
lot of you talking about community a second ago, like I can even imagine a world wherepeople are recording their sales call and like, guys, what did I do wrong here?
(50:28):
And like just getting that feedback because that was like, I'd send you my like fathomwould record it, I'd send it to you.
And I'm like, I did great.
And you're like, like you didn't ask for sale or anything.
I was like, I had a good conversation.
Maybe we should do that in the cohort.
Maybe we should actually do live reviews.
Yeah, I think it'd be awesome.
Like just like we're trying to everyone up together.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's not going to be personal attacks or anything.
(50:50):
It's like this is what you could do better.
And the thing is we're all on the same journey.
We're playing at different levels, different price points, but we're all facing thefundamental same challenges in business.
Business is not all that different.
Okay, yeah, if you're working $100 billion, I mean, your complexity of business is gonnalook a little different, but fundamentally, people have a problem, we have a solution, how
(51:13):
do we connect the dots?
And quite often it's mindset, standing in the way, right?
I've seen people I've worked with before they've worked with me.
actively like, I'm not comfortable to take your money.
I'm like, why take the freaking money?
They want your help.
They're ready to move forward.
Like it's really fun.
Like I think if we can remove the complexity, remove the sense of business is hard,money's hard, that no one's getting married.
(51:38):
Like once we shift your perspective and we give you the tool set, the skillset to moveforward.
um Now you've actually got something you can refer to and pull out.
Oh, they said this.
What did Jay say?
Okay, let's look, refer real quick.
and you can have your notes up on the screen.
Exactly.
While you're doing Zoom call, right?
To then obviously refer to, and it's an ever process of learning.
But again, once you dial this in, once you're at 51%, it becomes so much more easier.
(52:02):
Love it, mate.
All right, Jay, where can everyone find you if they're searching for you online apart fromthe online course and cohort coming up?
I would say Instagram is probably the best at Jgearing.
Okay, awesome, mate.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for tuning in to the WEDCO podcast.
If you love this episode, don't forget to subscribe, follow and share it with yourfriends.
We'd love to hear your thoughts, so leave a review or connect with us on social media.
(52:24):
New episodes drop every week, so be sure to join us next time for more weddinginspiration, tips and stories.
Until then, happy planning and we'll see you soon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.