October 16, 2023 • 39 mins
Ever wondered about the secret sauce behind unforgettable wedding photos? The answer lies in the tug of war between shot list and candid photography. We walk you through this intricate conversation, with our special guest, destination wedding photographer and educator, Kelley Williams. Her expertise and practical insights on balancing both styles promises to leave you with plenty of food for thought.
As we unpick the delicate fabric of wedding photography, we reveal how the photographer's approach—be it adhering to a shot list or exploring the boundaries of creativity—can shape the outcome. The episode explores the diversity and richness that can be achieved with candid shots, but also acknowledges the satisfaction a well-executed shot list can bring. Beyond this, we emphasize the magic that clear communication can conjure. We discuss how discussing expectations, planning the day's timeline effectively, and allowing enough time for those special, unscripted moments can elevate your album from good to great.
We round off our discussion by underlining the importance of building a genuine connection with your photographer. After all, the more comfortable and authentic you are, the more your photos will reflect that. We also delve into the potential of Pinterest boards as a tool for communicating your vision and wrap up with tips on nurturing your photographer relationship. And of course, we couldn't forget the power of social media shoutouts and reviews. So tune in as we navigate the nuances of wedding photography with our incredible guest, Kelley Williams, and equip you with the knowledge to make your wedding photos a true reflection of your special day.
Follow Kelley on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/kelleywphotos
Find her online:
www.kelleywphotos.com
Places to go - People to see:
Kelly's Site: http://www.kellymcwilliams.com
Kelly's Blog: https://www.kellymcwilliams.com/blog
Instagram: @kellyamcwilliams
About Kelly:
Kelly knows how incredible a well planned wedding can be. Every moment counts and every decision plays a part. Wedding planning should be fun and as easy to do as possible. Besides planning weddings, Kelly travels the globe as an industry speaker. Kelly is a Martha Stewart Top Wedding Planner & this podcast won Brides magazine and WeddingWire's best podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to this Versus that making wedding
decisions with Kelly McWilliams.
This podcast is for you ifyou're making a wedding decision
and want to know what toconsider before saying I do to
all the things that will makeyour wedding experience a great
one.
I'm your host, kelly McWilliams, and I'm so glad to be a part
(00:30):
of your wedding planning journey.
In each episode, you can counton me and my expert wedding
co-hosts to give you everythingit takes to make the best
decisions for the wedding thatyou're dreaming of.
This is one of my favoriteepisodes, I think, because it's
fun and it's something that Iknow that you guys are going to
(00:52):
be very interested in, becauseit's something that you're
curious about and very unsure of.
It's one of those things whereI feel like you don't know what
you don't know.
It is shot list versus candidphotography, or maybe you didn't
even think about it.
Maybe you're like, oh, I justlike the way the pictures look
on Instagram.
(01:12):
This was such a goodconversation with Kelly because
and yes, her name is Kelly tooKelly Williams, can you believe
that?
And I'm Kelly McWilliams, buther name has an extra E in the
Kelly, and I have the mic andshe doesn't have the mic.
So I'm Kelly McWilliams, she'sKelly Williams.
We met at the Engage Conference.
(01:35):
I don't remember which one itwas at, but we were fast friends
and everyone gets us confusedand I'm fine with that because I
love her and you're going tolove her too.
So, anyway, she came to meetthis topic and I was like that's
such a good idea, we shouldabsolutely talk about it and we
(01:56):
go off on a tangent.
We really hardcore, had to cuteach other off because there was
so much that we could talkabout, but I think in the end we
just wanted to drive the pointhome on all of this that you
don't necessarily need to have afull shot list, you don't have
to provide everything to yourphotographer, so long as you
(02:19):
have a seasoned photographer andif you are going with that
candid photography, which isvery much trending right now, I
have always loved it, justbecause I feel like candid
photography allows that thephotographer to be creative, to
(02:40):
be an artist, to actuallycapture the story of your
wedding day.
They're there to to photographand document what actually
happened versus what is forcedto happen Like.
I feel like weddings havegotten a little more scripted
when we've gone for this veryeditorial look, which I like.
(03:02):
Oh yeah, the pictures arebeautiful, but it takes up so
much of your day and doesn't asmuch allow you to just enjoy
your day.
So I love that we're going backto a little bit more of this
candid photography.
But, yes, I do want to say fromthe bottom of my heart that if
(03:22):
you are reaching to do more ofthis with your wedding, if
you're leaning in that directionof candid photography, that you
hire a skilled photographer,meaning someone who has years of
experience and covered hundredsof weddings as the lead
photographer.
It really does make a wealth ofdifference.
(03:44):
So let me tell you a little bitabout Kelly.
She's a destination weddingplanner and photographer.
I'm sorry she is not a weddingplanner.
I can't believe.
I just said that.
I think I'm used to saying thatall the time because that's
what I do.
She's a wedding photographer andeducator.
She's from Maryland, but shelives in California now.
She specializes in vibrantphotography, meaning it's full
(04:09):
color, which again, I feel likeis really coming in back in
trending, which I also love.
But she's also a professionalthird wheel and I can tell you
that's the best thing when youhave a photographer who you love
, like you want to be like.
You want them to be yourfriends, so that you feel like
(04:30):
there's not just this extraperson in the room that your
photographer, someone that justgenuinely makes you smile.
Kelly is like that for me andshe's my friend, like I want to
be around her all the time and Ifeel like her couples are so
lucky because that's like she'sjust so fun and easy to be
(04:51):
around.
You can be yourself.
I love that about her.
Anyway, her work has beenfeatured in many, many top
publications like Brides andStyle Only Pretty.
She's really passionate abouthelping other photographers
create a brand that they loveand to build genuine connections
with their clients and theirvendors in the wedding industry.
(05:12):
She's the kind of people that Ilike to be around and I think
you will too.
I think you'll get that fromher as you listen to this
episode.
We will put in the show notes,but she's at Kelly W Photos on
Instagram and I'm excited foryou to learn more about her.
But I'm very excited for you tolisten to this episode and kind
(05:35):
of decide if you want to leantowards candid photography or
maybe having a photographer thatis happy to have a shot list
that you provide to them.
We do talk.
Well, I'm just going to getinto this episode.
I could give the whole thingaway right here.
All right, let's go bring Kellyin.
This topic is not one that Iwould have ever thought of on my
(05:58):
own, cal.
And yes, so we have lots ofKelly's, because this is my
girlfriend, kelly, who's aphotographer out of California.
I feel like you're in everyworld in the world, but
California a lot.
And then you know, my husband'sname is Kelly's and lots of
Kelly's.
But this topic when you came, Iwas like, oh my gosh, we should
(06:20):
totally talk about that.
And, to be honest, I know whatI always put in place, but I
don't know if it's whatphotographers want.
So our title everyone is a shotlist versus candid photography.
And am I right in thinking thatwhen you came to me, with this
you mean that the client comesto you with the shot list or
(06:46):
just says do candid, or do youmean the photographer is
requesting a shot list or to letyou be candid?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, well, honestly, I thought about it both ways,
right?
So I have had clients that will, and there are just clients
that will come to you with alist of kind of all the photos
that they want, right?
They're like, I want a photo ofthe dress hanging up, or I want
to do a photo of, like, seeingall my guests at cocktail hour.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Stop, stop.
Let me tell you something yousaid I want a photo of the dress
hanging up.
I want to stop this forever andever, amen.
If I have another picture on ahey, you didn't say it I'm going
to embrace it.
No, listen, I'm okay.
I'm already interrupting youand I'm sorry, kelly.
Oh, my gosh, please Interruptme.
I know there's nothing to dowith our topic, but I am so over
(07:38):
the dress on the hanger photo.
I know I've been doing this fora long time, but can we please
put the dress on the pretty form?
It just shows so much morebeautifully.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Kelly's over here shaking her head.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
yes, I stopped doing that photo because you don't
need it.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
No one.
You will never look at it again.
You will never look.
And here's the thing when Ifirst started back, when dirt
was still hitting the earth,dresses didn't have what is it
called, where you can seethrough it.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Oh yeah, just that tool that they see.
I know what you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
We all know we're talking about.
No, it's not called cheer, it'slike illusion or whatever it is
.
So your whole dress isconnected, but it looks like
skin is showing through in somepart, and sometimes skin is
showing through but there issome fabric.
Well, when we have dresses likethat we didn't have those back
in the day, 20 years ago, didn'texist.
(08:41):
Now it's like a very commonthing.
And so when you hang that dresson the hanger in front of a
window, what do you see?
You see the breast pads.
The breast pads, yes, and whereeverything else is like a solid
, non-translucent.
So the dress photos hanging onthe hanger, they are no longer
(09:03):
pretty, they're like why am Ilooking at booby pads?
So now we have figured outanother way to take pictures of
dresses.
A beautiful dress form can sitin a corner and we can show.
There's so many ways to use it,but okay.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
No I agree.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I'm sorry I stopped you mid conversation already.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
You can't tell me anytime, it's not a problem.
But I just think when couplescome to photographers, I feel
like they kind of come with twodifferent mindsets.
They come with I want all ofthese photos, I need to have all
these photos, or they kind ofcan come with like I just want
(09:48):
you to do your thing.
And I feel like in the same way, the wedding industry or not
the photography industry hasthese ideas of there's a dark
and moody photographer and likea light photographer.
Right.
There's like a kind of split oflike these are the types of
photographers I kind of thinkthere's also been this shift of.
There's the super candidphotographers, where they don't
(10:09):
don't you dare give them a shotlist, and the photographers that
, like, we'll get every singlephoto that you want them to get
and like, send them thePinterest boards and all that
other stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
So so is that something that people who are
getting married engage peopleneed to ask?
So, when there's outsourcingfor their photographers and they
come across people that theylike the style, they like the
way they shoot they're lookingat through all of their images
on their website and theInstagrams and wherever they
found them, they're like Ireally like the look of
(10:41):
everything I'm seeing here Dothey then need to ask are you
more, are you more of like alist photographer or are you
more of a candid photographer?
Is that a question they shouldbe asking?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I think so.
I think that's because I feellike that will help manage
expectations right oh yeah.
If I'm really big on, I justfeel like everyone should,
especially when you're makingsuch a big investment in wedding
photography and these are goingto be your photos that you're
going to have, right, like Ithink it's a good idea to ask
kind of, what's your approach toa wedding day?
(11:19):
Are you coming in with a list ofthings that have shots you want
to get, or are you just kind ofletting the day unfold and just
capturing it as it happens?
Right, and I think more couplesare leaning towards candid
because I feel like they likethat's very in right now, kind
of trending black and white, theblurry, the more emotion idea.
(11:42):
But I think.
So what I do, for example, is Ionly have a family shot list.
So I give you a template andyou fill out names and that's
the only type of shot list Ilike to have, mostly because
it's like it's the mostefficient.
I don't want you thinking aboutcombinations and family lists
(12:02):
on the screen and like it'ssomeone, which is terrible,
obviously.
So that's the only list I willdo, but I will not take a list
of other types of shots than aclient wants.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Do you think that most photographers or do you
think there's a greater majorityof photographers who are in
that same frame of mind thatthey would rather be able to
capture the actual story of theday as it unfolds versus forcing
all these images to happen thatwere written on a piece of
(12:37):
paper or emailed ever?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I mean, I do think that's kind of the majority.
But I will say and I say thatbeing someone who's been in this
business for a while I've beena full-time photographer for
almost eight years, so I've beendoing it for a while.
I do think the newerphotographers like a list
because they haven't had theexperience of all the things
(13:04):
that can happen on a wedding day.
But I feel like when you'repaying a seasoned professional,
you don't give them a list.
They got it, yeah, they know.
Yeah, they know.
It's for you to sit back, enjoyyour wedding day and know that
it's going to be capturedperfectly.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
In it.
With the shot list versuscandid, do you find that you end
up with different imagery?
The photos at the end areentirely different because
you're capturing differentthings than you would have if it
had been on a list.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I definitely feel like you have more fun on a
wedding day and you're able tobe more creative when a client
gives you a list of.
These are all the shots I want.
Throughout the entire eight,nine, 10 hours you're there, you
spend your focus looking atthis piece of paper, getting
this list done, instead of beingable to have the creativity and
(13:58):
being able to play and trydifferent things.
I feel like that's a morewell-rounded gallery.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's a very good shot list.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Do you feel like when you have that allowance to do
that, that the images tend to bemore emotional or tell the
story better?
I guess I want to find out.
I hate to say it.
Are the pictures just betterbecause you were able to be
(14:37):
creative?
It's okay to say yes or no.
Kelly, You're allowed to sayall the things here.
You can also say I plead thefifth.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Don't get me wrong.
I think there is a client whowants what they want and they
want these particular shots andthey will be very happy with
their gallery.
I think, no matter what, theclient who wants what they want
is going to be happy.
If the client wants to give youa full list, every single shot,
when they get their gallery backand it's every single thing
that they wanted on that list,they'll be happy.
(15:10):
I think the same way, theclient that comes in and says I
want full candid, fullcreativity, they'll be happy.
I think the difference is inthe photographer and also I want
to say in the photographerbecause I also think the client
(15:31):
that gives you the list, theydon't know what they're missing
by not letting you be creative.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yes, well, they also don't know what they don't know.
Do you mean they don't realizethe pictures that they are
probably asking for are not onesthat they're going to want at
the end because you just don'trealize?
Let me ask this is a little bitof an off-topic, but not really
(15:59):
Of the pictures that peopletypically put into their albums
are those ones that people willcome to you with their list,
those people that do give you afull list and they're like I
want these 25 pictures?
Are those the ones theyactually put in an album?
(16:19):
No, yes, see, there's a proofright there.
I was kind of hoping that wasthe answer, but that was a big
risk I just took right there.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
No, that's not the case at all, because I design a
lot of.
Most of my clients will get analbum or their parents will get
an album.
Sure, it has typical familylist, the ceremony shots, but I
feel like always it's going tobe the more candid, it's going
to be the ones that we have tostand for.
(16:54):
There was this album I justdesigned last week and it's this
beautiful photo of the groomand he's walking his grandfather
to cocktail hour, but they'rehand in hand.
It's like if I was thinkingabout this list, where I had to
go to cocktail hour and shootthis and shoot that.
Based on this list, I wouldn'thave been able to just casually
(17:15):
stroll with my couple as theyhead to cocktail hour and just
capture that moment.
Yeah, and that's a photo theyput in their album.
It's like a big photo in theiralbum, like it's a page.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
That's an heirloom photo right there.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Right.
It's like you're walking handin hand with your grandfather,
like on your wedding day.
You just got married, he hashis ring and it's just.
I love that photo so much andthat's a candid photo.
We could not have planned forthat photo, it just kind of
happened and I feel so.
I feel like the clients thatare really heavy on a list, just
(17:52):
thinking about thepossibilities that can happen
when you hire a professionaloutside of the list.
Right, like what you canimagine, what your photographer
can capture.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So let's talk about now.
You're going to have to, like,make sure we're allowed to see
this photo in call it client upbefore this episode goes live,
because and say so, I wastalking about this picture we
took on this podcast.
Can we show it?
Okay?
So let's say, someone is likemaybe just can't release all
(18:31):
control and does still feel likethey're just going to feel
uncomfortable, even though theytrust you, not giving you at
least a little bit.
So if that was the case, whatwould you say if you had to?
Here's what would be great toreceive from you, like on a
(18:51):
short and narrow list.
Yeah, like if you had to,because I know, and I've seen
them all I have had lists comeover that were like 45 items
long and I'm like, no, I'mpushing it back up like a car
salesman when they send thepaper over with the dollar
amount and I'm like the one onthe other side pushing it right
(19:14):
back, saying let me change thisnumber and we're cutting that in
half, you know.
So what would you say would belike a safe spot to be like okay
, if you sent me like somethinglike this that's still going to
allow me to do everything that Ithink could potentially be
(19:34):
great about covering yourwedding with the additional time
that I would have, because I'mnot stuck looking at this piece
of paper.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Right, yes, so I have had those types of clients and
I tell them five photos.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh, that's a good number.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
You can give me five, like five that you're like I
really want this shot.
Usually they've seen it onPinterest.
Yeah, I'm like okay, you cangive me five, and I feel like
that is a reasonable amount.
That they're happy, I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Would you feel good about or be okay with?
And you can say no, like I said, you can plead the fifth and
all that stuff.
But so what if someone came toyou and said I would like to
give you a shot list, would yoube comfortable with instead, if
they like, if they let's saylike, let's say I'm the planner
(20:22):
and they told me that they wantthe photographer to take a shot
list, would it be cool or kosherfor me as a planner to say how
about this instead?
How about you make a Pinterestboard of pictures that you love,
like images that you love, andwe just send it to your
photographer so she gets an idea?
But then you, she's not or he'snot guaranteeing any of that,
(20:45):
but they have some insight intothe kinds of images like not
that it's not trying to avoidyour style, but like I like the
way these are, like these areset up for you know this, that
or the other.
Is that decent fare?
Or, like hell, don't do that.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that
, especially if there's aconversation to be had, because
I like to ask what do you likeabout these photos?
Do you see?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Like the dogs just walked in.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, my dog was like you've been spending for a
while, so it's what do you?
What's the feeling that thesepictures are giving you?
That you?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
want on your wedding day.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I think that's more important, right?
It's like how and that'ssomething I ask clients when I
do an inquiry call it's like howdo you want to feel on your
wedding day and how can I helpyou and obviously your wedding
team help you have that feelingright on your wedding day.
And most people want to feelrelaxed, right, they want to
like, be in the moment, thingslike that.
(21:51):
So, if we can have aconversation like, I don't mind
if you send a Pinterest boardwith your inspiration, but I
have a further conversation oflike what about this Do you like
?
What about this Do you want tohave from your wedding day.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Actually, I love that you putit that way.
So then you're not like, okay,I have to do this picture where
they're standing next to the barand the flower girl is sitting
to the right.
And also, something to thinkabout, guys, is every time you
add one of those pictures in,you think it's a 30 second deal.
(22:31):
That is nuts.
Tell them, tell them, kelly,tell them how long stuff like
that actually takes.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, no shots have to be set up.
If you want to be like specificshots, it takes like a couple
minutes per photo and that alsodepends on the cooperation, like
if you want to throw kids orpets into the mix.
It's going to take some time.
It's going to take some time.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
That is, and I don't think we could.
What's that?
What's that?
Hit the throne, hit the.
Okay, yes, you're right, I'mlosing my words here.
I totally did not have enoughtea this morning.
I can tell you as a fact, a lotof those kinds of images are
(23:18):
ones that we're trying to dopre-ceremony, or like during
cocktail or early dinner.
Finding these people alone tobe an image.
It's one thing that wants tojust you in the group, or you in
your bride, or you with yourparents, or something like that,
because you're in one place.
And this is actually what we'redoing, this kind of stuff right
(23:40):
now.
So, if it's a matter of lettingyour photographer know, I
really love the idea of thepicture with my parents.
If, like my dad sitting in achair and my mom and dad are
surrounding him, yeah, likeyou're already playing on doing
a picture with the three of them, of course, yes, so maybe
that's something you wouldn'tusually do, but you've already
(24:03):
set in your mind you're gettinga good picture with the parents,
exactly, you know.
So that could be something.
But it's like when that's notthe timeframe of that kind of
thing happening, or something.
It's like, just like you said,the dog during cocktail hour and
I want to be at the bar andlike okay, and also I want to
(24:25):
make sure my brother and my bestman are in it.
Where are they?
Where are they?
So, yes, it is.
You are there, like setting thething up, and I am running
around trying to find these fivepeople and one of them is at
the bar and is like I am notleaving here until I have my old
fashion in my hand.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
And that you know.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So it's what truly remember.
We said you thought this wasgoing to be 30 seconds.
We're into 15 minutes now.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Oh easy, 15 minutes Easily.
Why are things during cocktailhour People I don't think
couples realize your guests aredone.
Like if they go to friends, likeyour people in your wedding
party, your parents, like theywant to go, like they've been
with us all morning, like theywant to drink, they want to have
some food, they want to seetheir friends.
(25:16):
It's not Lai, they peace outand so it's like you have to
really wrangle these people.
So, yeah, and especially if youwant to do photos and also like
your venue could be hard tolike, if you have there's a
great venue we have in town thatI love to shoot at, but it's
literally the ceremony is Down ahill, around a bend, like in
(25:38):
front of a pond, versus thecocktail hour, like you have to
be shuttled to the Cocktail ohyeah, we have a lot of those
here to like so, if you want it.
You want like a specific shot,but we're in one part of the
venue.
It's gonna take time to go tothe other part of the venue
gather who we need.
So it's just like yeah, it justbecomes a more.
(25:59):
If you are a shot list couple,it is.
It will just be way morecomplicated than you think you
want.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
So I would say that if you are gonna be a shot list
couple which we're saying isfine, but you're signing up for
something, yes, I would also addan extra hour of coverage
Because that would allow for allof those things.
We just told you how long onepicture could take.
So if that's one picture, thatcould take 15 minutes.
(26:26):
But if that picture means thatmuch to you, of course we want
you to have it.
If it means that much to you,and it might be, cal, that
there's gonna be some imagesthat they're trying to recreate,
because I know it's a big trendright now and actually they're
kind of cute.
You know, like if you know apicture that her, you know, your
grandparents, did when they gotmarried and you want to have
(26:46):
the same image that up, maybeyou're getting married at the
same place or you know, you knowit.
You just want to recreate thatfor your generation, that we
want you to have those thingstoo.
So those are, those are shotlist things that you, we want
you to have.
I think what we want to Let youknow is the shot list where that
(27:08):
lists out all of these crazydetails, like on the flat lay.
I would like a picture of thatis just my perfume and just my
jewelry, and then on the nextflat lay, can we do it but then
add the flowers.
Like we know nobody wants thatand you're not gonna.
You're not gonna print that outand put it on your Frigerator,
you're not gonna frame it andKelly's already told you that
(27:31):
have the pictures that you'regonna put in your shot list.
You're not gonna end up puttingin your album.
And this is a professional likewe're not just making this up.
These are professionals who dothis day in and day out.
We're saying this is whatreally happens.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Hundred?
Yeah, and I'm.
And when I say shot list, I'mnot talking about like family
shot list, right?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh yeah, no, we don't do that you want with your
family.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, I'm talking about that.
I'm talking about the one likeyou saw this photo on Pinterest
and you want to recreate it likeyou're in a vineyard, popping
champagne with these glasses,your bridal party's behind you,
it's sunset, it's like there's abird flying overhead, like I'm
talking about.
These kind of shots Are notnaturally probably gonna happen
(28:16):
on your wedding day.
Yeah, kind of what we'retalking about here.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah yeah, or like the vanity fair shots like that.
You know, let me look, guys.
I gotta tell you what justhappened.
Kelly just leaned back in herseat and took a big deep breath
for that when I said that outloud.
So we know those photos areepic, they are, and I think
(28:39):
everyone loves to have them.
But listen, remember when Ijust said add on that extra time
.
You are gonna have to add onextra time for that one because
even it looks it Okay.
Those pictures don't even lookeffortless.
You can tell tape time wastaken, because it was.
You're getting all those people, you're setting up the chairs,
(29:01):
you're trying to find heightsand levels and depths, and you
know it.
That is not and that's also nota one photographer deal, am I
right?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Absolutely and yeah and those types of shots.
Okay, so I did one of those.
I feel like last year was likeprobably my first time doing one
of those where it was probably20 of their what it was like 20
people in the wedding party,yeah.
So we needed chairs, you needsetups, you have to.
Also, in all the bridesmaidshad different dresses.
(29:31):
It was like one of those.
So you have in a differentpatterns.
You just see what looks goodvisually together.
It took like 20 minutes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, exactly, exactly because it.
It's not about everyone justsits anywhere they want to.
It's because Kelly like.
So, first of all, again gettingeveryone together.
We this would be duringportrait time, group photos,
especially, like you said, ifthere are different dresses and
things like that, every singleperson has to be placed and
(30:06):
Sometimes you put them all inand you the photographer takes a
step back and takes that firstimage and it's like looks at the
back of the camera going no, wehave to move these three people
.
Here's the other end of this.
Everyone has either a good, bador indifferent attitude.
That is sitting in those chairsand standing, for instance,
(30:27):
when I make.
Every time my family getstogether, like like every time,
kelly, every time, like whengrandma and grandpa and all this
people together, I makeeveryone take a family photo, I
don't care, and they all knowit's coming.
No one walks out the doorbefore St Patrick's Day Sunday
dinner.
I don't care, I want thepicture.
Yes, every single time and I'vebeen married 25 years my husband
(30:51):
would be like I'm not doing,he's mad and I'm like listen,
one day you're gonna be so happyto have this picture, so, but
you're gonna have five of thoseof your 20 people who are done
before we started and, like yousaid, it takes so long just to
put it together that by thattime they're like can we just be
(31:13):
done?
So you don't always so.
Just know that, yes, that's anincredible image, but you have
to go into it knowing you askedfor something that is
substantial and it takessubstantial time and effort and
good attitude 100%.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
It can't be something that you plan 15, 20 minutes
for.
Like I just told you, it'lltake 20 minutes to set up the
shot and that's just the oneshot.
We still have other photos tocapture.
So I totally agree with that.
It's yeah, it takes time.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I'm glad we talked about this because that never
would have made another showLike that's.
I'm glad it came up just now.
We're getting close to ourlimit here.
What I do wanna talk about likewhat are is there anything that
we need to be nervous aboutwhen it comes to like like a
more candid photography weddingday, when it comes to like maybe
(32:11):
images that could be missed, oranything like that, is that
something that should be aconcern to anyone?
Honestly?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
yes, because I, because I come back and not for
me.
But clients from otherphotographers have come back
wanting to do like anniversaryshots or you know, sessions
because of photos they did notcapture on their wedding day.
So in a sense, and I feel likeso, if you're going for, if a
couple is booking a reallycandid photographer, right,
(32:39):
there are some photographersthat you don't even give them a
family shot list.
You know what I mean?
Like, don't give them a list,and I just feel like if you but
you love their style, you lovetheir candid approach, then you,
if there are photos that arereally truly important to you,
you need to let them know.
I feel like the wedding day andyour wedding team is all about
(32:59):
communication, right, and I feellike I'm sure you've talked
about that on other shows.
It's like you gotta communicate.
So let's say, you love thiscandid photographer, you love
their style, but they are like ano-list person, like don't send
me a Pinterest board, don'tsend me a list.
I would still communicate thatlike, hey, I love your style, I
know you don't love a list, butI really need this photo with my
(33:20):
grandfather.
Or like I just want some time,you know, with my wedding party
or something like that.
Like frame it however you wantto, but if there are things that
are really important to you,then capture them, because
they'll tell them when you wantthem captured, because I tell
people all the time.
Your wedding day is literallyprobably one of the only times
you're gonna have all thesepeople in the same room ever,
(33:42):
right On your wedding.
So if there's something youreally want captured, you have
to just communicate it.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, and do you think that these conversations
should be had before they hiredthe photographer or after they
hired the photographer?
And when I say if it's after,should it be at the beginning of
the process so you figure outhow much time should be like you
need them for, or should it belike closer to the wedding, when
they know who's coming and theykind of have some ideas in mind
(34:11):
and they know where things arehappening, or does it need to
happen all three times?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I think maybe at least twice.
I think definitely in theinquiry process, when you're
deciding who you're in a bookfor your wedding day, right,
Cause there's a lot of factorsthat go into that.
There's personality and theirstyle and their price, all these
things right.
So I think it's a fair questionto ask like, hey, what's your
approach to your wedding day?
Are you a more candidphotographer?
(34:38):
Do you, would you like me togive you a shot list or shots
that I would like you know?
What's your approach, whatworks for you?
And ideally, you're asking thisto like your top three, right?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You're not just asking the grand list, but you
know when you're trying tonarrow down.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
And then, once you figure out who's your style, I
would just it's nice to haveanother refresher conversation
at some point, I think maybe,maybe closer to the wedding day
of.
Like this is what's reallyimportant to me.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then should thatconversation kind of excuse me,
have some give some context onlike how much coverage time,
like is that?
You know what I mean?
Like I feel like thatconversation is had in the
(35:26):
beginning.
Then it's the responsibility ofthe photographer to say how
many guests are you having andhow big is your wedding party,
and just kind of knowing, likeif it is a more, you know that
they do want some of thesethings to happen.
It's like add, like I don'tsuggest to you that we have less
(35:47):
than nine hours on your weddingday and here's why.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And I think when you have a seasoned photographer,
they would know that you knowwhat I mean.
Okay, Because I mean Ipersonally feel like kind of a
minimum for wedding day is likenine hours, Like right, Like I
like time, I like time tobreathe between things.
I don't want my couple to feellike we're rushing between this,
(36:14):
this, this.
You know a lot of breath, andso I just feel like if you talk
to your couple, or, sorry, ifthe couple talks to their
photographer and they want thesecertain elements to have, I
think the timeline conversationshould be had around the same
time.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think it's a great idea.
I think it's a great idea andit's not like you have to firm
up like every.
you know every, every clock mework that we, you know, say this
is where we're going to startwith, this is where I think
we're going to end up.
But at the end, when we havethe whole timeline done, if
Kelly comes, kelly, thephotographer comes back and says
, hey, looking at this, and nowthat we know that the ceremony's
(36:51):
here, cocktail's here andreception is there and the
wedding party is actually thisnumber, now I think it would be
beneficial if we could add on ahalf an hour or an hour or
whatever, to make sure that theday isn't rushed and we have the
opportunities to do all thethings.
Right, okay, all right, kelly,thank you so much for being on
the show.
This was such a good, like funconversation Like this was a
(37:15):
good like.
The last one I did was so, oh mygosh, it was, it was with Leah
and it was about like, whentragedies happen, do you cancel
or not, and so I'm so glad tocome back and do a happy episode
.
That was a heavy one.
It was by far the heaviestwe've done and I avoided it like
(37:37):
the plague, but it needed to bedone.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I'm sure it was really valuable though.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, yeah, and it will probably get the lowest
downloads out of all of them,but for the people that need
that piece of mind and knowingyou know about, like, what I
should do, they'll listen tothat.
Nobody else will listen to it,but this one people love to know
about photography, so I'm veryexcited for them to hear it and
I'm so glad you were on thepodcast and I hope you love the
(38:04):
experience and you'll come backagain.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yes, please, as long as I'll come back any time,
you'll have me.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
After you come back from Italy that you're gonna go
do this one again.
I just don't.
I hope so.
I hope so.
Okay, girl, have a goodafternoon.
Thanks again, I reallyappreciate you.
Thanks.
I'm so glad to be able to sharemy wedding experiences and
expertise with you, and that myco-hosts are so giving it theirs
.
We truly do want you to havethe best time at your wedding,
(38:33):
and our hope is that thispodcast is helping you to make
your engagement time whileplanning your wedding that much
easier.
May I ask a favor of you?
If this is the case, would youjust take a moment to leave a
review of this podcast on yourlistening platform?
It helps people just like youto find the podcast and to also
(38:54):
find out their answer so theycan make decisions.
I would also absolutely lovefor you to give this versus that
podcast a shout out on yoursocial media.
You can find us at this versusthat wedding podcast on
Instagram, and if you would likeme to help you with a specific
question a wedding decisionplease by all means ask.
(39:16):
Send me a DM.
I would love to hear from youand maybe, just maybe even have
you as a wedding cast on afuture episode.
How fun.
Here's to another great wedding.
Hello and welcome to this Versus that making wedding
decisions with Kelly McWilliams.
This podcast is for you ifyou're making a wedding decision
and want to know what toconsider before saying I do to
all the things that will makeyour wedding experience a great
one.
I'm your host, kelly McWilliams, and I'm so glad to be a part
(00:30):
of your wedding planning journey.
In each episode, you can counton me and my expert wedding
co-hosts to give you everythingit takes to make the best
decisions for the wedding thatyou're dreaming of.
This is one of my favoriteepisodes, I think, because it's
fun and it's something that Iknow that you guys are going to
(00:52):
be very interested in, becauseit's something that you're
curious about and very unsure of.
It's one of those things whereI feel like you don't know what
you don't know.
It is shot list versus candidphotography, or maybe you didn't
even think about it.
Maybe you're like, oh, I justlike the way the pictures look
on Instagram.
(01:12):
This was such a goodconversation with Kelly because
and yes, her name is Kelly tooKelly Williams, can you believe
that?
And I'm Kelly McWilliams, buther name has an extra E in the
Kelly, and I have the mic andshe doesn't have the mic.
So I'm Kelly McWilliams, she'sKelly Williams.
We met at the Engage Conference.
(01:35):
I don't remember which one itwas at, but we were fast friends
and everyone gets us confusedand I'm fine with that because I
love her and you're going tolove her too.
So, anyway, she came to meetthis topic and I was like that's
such a good idea, we shouldabsolutely talk about it and we
(01:56):
go off on a tangent.
We really hardcore, had to cuteach other off because there was
so much that we could talkabout, but I think in the end we
just wanted to drive the pointhome on all of this that you
don't necessarily need to have afull shot list, you don't have
to provide everything to yourphotographer, so long as you
(02:19):
have a seasoned photographer andif you are going with that
candid photography, which isvery much trending right now, I
have always loved it, justbecause I feel like candid
photography allows that thephotographer to be creative, to
(02:40):
be an artist, to actuallycapture the story of your
wedding day.
They're there to to photographand document what actually
happened versus what is forcedto happen Like.
I feel like weddings havegotten a little more scripted
when we've gone for this veryeditorial look, which I like.
(03:02):
Oh yeah, the pictures arebeautiful, but it takes up so
much of your day and doesn't asmuch allow you to just enjoy
your day.
So I love that we're going backto a little bit more of this
candid photography.
But, yes, I do want to say fromthe bottom of my heart that if
(03:22):
you are reaching to do more ofthis with your wedding, if
you're leaning in that directionof candid photography, that you
hire a skilled photographer,meaning someone who has years of
experience and covered hundredsof weddings as the lead
photographer.
It really does make a wealth ofdifference.
(03:44):
So let me tell you a little bitabout Kelly.
She's a destination weddingplanner and photographer.
I'm sorry she is not a weddingplanner.
I can't believe.
I just said that.
I think I'm used to saying thatall the time because that's
what I do.
She's a wedding photographer andeducator.
She's from Maryland, but shelives in California now.
She specializes in vibrantphotography, meaning it's full
(04:09):
color, which again, I feel likeis really coming in back in
trending, which I also love.
But she's also a professionalthird wheel and I can tell you
that's the best thing when youhave a photographer who you love
, like you want to be like.
You want them to be yourfriends, so that you feel like
(04:30):
there's not just this extraperson in the room that your
photographer, someone that justgenuinely makes you smile.
Kelly is like that for me andshe's my friend, like I want to
be around her all the time and Ifeel like her couples are so
lucky because that's like she'sjust so fun and easy to be
(04:51):
around.
You can be yourself.
I love that about her.
Anyway, her work has beenfeatured in many, many top
publications like Brides andStyle Only Pretty.
She's really passionate abouthelping other photographers
create a brand that they loveand to build genuine connections
with their clients and theirvendors in the wedding industry.
(05:12):
She's the kind of people that Ilike to be around and I think
you will too.
I think you'll get that fromher as you listen to this
episode.
We will put in the show notes,but she's at Kelly W Photos on
Instagram and I'm excited foryou to learn more about her.
But I'm very excited for you tolisten to this episode and kind
(05:35):
of decide if you want to leantowards candid photography or
maybe having a photographer thatis happy to have a shot list
that you provide to them.
We do talk.
Well, I'm just going to getinto this episode.
I could give the whole thingaway right here.
All right, let's go bring Kellyin.
This topic is not one that Iwould have ever thought of on my
(05:58):
own, cal.
And yes, so we have lots ofKelly's, because this is my
girlfriend, kelly, who's aphotographer out of California.
I feel like you're in everyworld in the world, but
California a lot.
And then you know, my husband'sname is Kelly's and lots of
Kelly's.
But this topic when you came, Iwas like, oh my gosh, we should
(06:20):
totally talk about that.
And, to be honest, I know whatI always put in place, but I
don't know if it's whatphotographers want.
So our title everyone is a shotlist versus candid photography.
And am I right in thinking thatwhen you came to me, with this
you mean that the client comesto you with the shot list or
(06:46):
just says do candid, or do youmean the photographer is
requesting a shot list or to letyou be candid?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, well, honestly, I thought about it both ways,
right?
So I have had clients that will, and there are just clients
that will come to you with alist of kind of all the photos
that they want, right?
They're like, I want a photo ofthe dress hanging up, or I want
to do a photo of, like, seeingall my guests at cocktail hour.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Stop, stop.
Let me tell you something yousaid I want a photo of the dress
hanging up.
I want to stop this forever andever, amen.
If I have another picture on ahey, you didn't say it I'm going
to embrace it.
No, listen, I'm okay.
I'm already interrupting youand I'm sorry, kelly.
Oh, my gosh, please Interruptme.
I know there's nothing to dowith our topic, but I am so over
(07:38):
the dress on the hanger photo.
I know I've been doing this fora long time, but can we please
put the dress on the pretty form?
It just shows so much morebeautifully.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Kelly's over here shaking her head.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
yes, I stopped doing that photo because you don't
need it.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
No one.
You will never look at it again.
You will never look.
And here's the thing when Ifirst started back, when dirt
was still hitting the earth,dresses didn't have what is it
called, where you can seethrough it.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Oh yeah, just that tool that they see.
I know what you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
We all know we're talking about.
No, it's not called cheer, it'slike illusion or whatever it is
.
So your whole dress isconnected, but it looks like
skin is showing through in somepart, and sometimes skin is
showing through but there issome fabric.
Well, when we have dresses likethat we didn't have those back
in the day, 20 years ago, didn'texist.
(08:41):
Now it's like a very commonthing.
And so when you hang that dresson the hanger in front of a
window, what do you see?
You see the breast pads.
The breast pads, yes, and whereeverything else is like a solid
, non-translucent.
So the dress photos hanging onthe hanger, they are no longer
(09:03):
pretty, they're like why am Ilooking at booby pads?
So now we have figured outanother way to take pictures of
dresses.
A beautiful dress form can sitin a corner and we can show.
There's so many ways to use it,but okay.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
No I agree.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I'm sorry I stopped you mid conversation already.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
You can't tell me anytime, it's not a problem.
But I just think when couplescome to photographers, I feel
like they kind of come with twodifferent mindsets.
They come with I want all ofthese photos, I need to have all
these photos, or they kind ofcan come with like I just want
(09:48):
you to do your thing.
And I feel like in the same way, the wedding industry or not
the photography industry hasthese ideas of there's a dark
and moody photographer and likea light photographer.
Right.
There's like a kind of split oflike these are the types of
photographers I kind of thinkthere's also been this shift of.
There's the super candidphotographers, where they don't
(10:09):
don't you dare give them a shotlist, and the photographers that
, like, we'll get every singlephoto that you want them to get
and like, send them thePinterest boards and all that
other stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
So so is that something that people who are
getting married engage peopleneed to ask?
So, when there's outsourcingfor their photographers and they
come across people that theylike the style, they like the
way they shoot they're lookingat through all of their images
on their website and theInstagrams and wherever they
found them, they're like Ireally like the look of
(10:41):
everything I'm seeing here Dothey then need to ask are you
more, are you more of like alist photographer or are you
more of a candid photographer?
Is that a question they shouldbe asking?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I think so.
I think that's because I feellike that will help manage
expectations right oh yeah.
If I'm really big on, I justfeel like everyone should,
especially when you're makingsuch a big investment in wedding
photography and these are goingto be your photos that you're
going to have, right, like Ithink it's a good idea to ask
kind of, what's your approach toa wedding day?
(11:19):
Are you coming in with a list ofthings that have shots you want
to get, or are you just kind ofletting the day unfold and just
capturing it as it happens?
Right, and I think more couplesare leaning towards candid
because I feel like they likethat's very in right now, kind
of trending black and white, theblurry, the more emotion idea.
(11:42):
But I think.
So what I do, for example, is Ionly have a family shot list.
So I give you a template andyou fill out names and that's
the only type of shot list Ilike to have, mostly because
it's like it's the mostefficient.
I don't want you thinking aboutcombinations and family lists
(12:02):
on the screen and like it'ssomeone, which is terrible,
obviously.
So that's the only list I willdo, but I will not take a list
of other types of shots than aclient wants.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Do you think that most photographers or do you
think there's a greater majorityof photographers who are in
that same frame of mind thatthey would rather be able to
capture the actual story of theday as it unfolds versus forcing
all these images to happen thatwere written on a piece of
(12:37):
paper or emailed ever?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I mean, I do think that's kind of the majority.
But I will say and I say thatbeing someone who's been in this
business for a while I've beena full-time photographer for
almost eight years, so I've beendoing it for a while.
I do think the newerphotographers like a list
because they haven't had theexperience of all the things
(13:04):
that can happen on a wedding day.
But I feel like when you'repaying a seasoned professional,
you don't give them a list.
They got it, yeah, they know.
Yeah, they know.
It's for you to sit back, enjoyyour wedding day and know that
it's going to be capturedperfectly.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
In it.
With the shot list versuscandid, do you find that you end
up with different imagery?
The photos at the end areentirely different because
you're capturing differentthings than you would have if it
had been on a list.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
I definitely feel like you have more fun on a
wedding day and you're able tobe more creative when a client
gives you a list of.
These are all the shots I want.
Throughout the entire eight,nine, 10 hours you're there, you
spend your focus looking atthis piece of paper, getting
this list done, instead of beingable to have the creativity and
(13:58):
being able to play and trydifferent things.
I feel like that's a morewell-rounded gallery.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's a very good shot list.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Do you feel like when you have that allowance to do
that, that the images tend to bemore emotional or tell the
story better?
I guess I want to find out.
I hate to say it.
Are the pictures just betterbecause you were able to be
(14:37):
creative?
It's okay to say yes or no.
Kelly, You're allowed to sayall the things here.
You can also say I plead thefifth.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Don't get me wrong.
I think there is a client whowants what they want and they
want these particular shots andthey will be very happy with
their gallery.
I think, no matter what, theclient who wants what they want
is going to be happy.
If the client wants to give youa full list, every single shot,
when they get their gallery backand it's every single thing
that they wanted on that list,they'll be happy.
(15:10):
I think the same way, theclient that comes in and says I
want full candid, fullcreativity, they'll be happy.
I think the difference is inthe photographer and also I want
to say in the photographerbecause I also think the client
(15:31):
that gives you the list, theydon't know what they're missing
by not letting you be creative.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yes, well, they also don't know what they don't know.
Do you mean they don't realizethe pictures that they are
probably asking for are not onesthat they're going to want at
the end because you just don'trealize?
Let me ask this is a little bitof an off-topic, but not really
(15:59):
Of the pictures that peopletypically put into their albums
are those ones that people willcome to you with their list,
those people that do give you afull list and they're like I
want these 25 pictures?
Are those the ones theyactually put in an album?
(16:19):
No, yes, see, there's a proofright there.
I was kind of hoping that wasthe answer, but that was a big
risk I just took right there.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
No, that's not the case at all, because I design a
lot of.
Most of my clients will get analbum or their parents will get
an album.
Sure, it has typical familylist, the ceremony shots, but I
feel like always it's going tobe the more candid, it's going
to be the ones that we have tostand for.
(16:54):
There was this album I justdesigned last week and it's this
beautiful photo of the groomand he's walking his grandfather
to cocktail hour, but they'rehand in hand.
It's like if I was thinkingabout this list, where I had to
go to cocktail hour and shootthis and shoot that.
Based on this list, I wouldn'thave been able to just casually
(17:15):
stroll with my couple as theyhead to cocktail hour and just
capture that moment.
Yeah, and that's a photo theyput in their album.
It's like a big photo in theiralbum, like it's a page.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
That's an heirloom photo right there.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Right.
It's like you're walking handin hand with your grandfather,
like on your wedding day.
You just got married, he hashis ring and it's just.
I love that photo so much andthat's a candid photo.
We could not have planned forthat photo, it just kind of
happened and I feel so.
I feel like the clients thatare really heavy on a list, just
(17:52):
thinking about thepossibilities that can happen
when you hire a professionaloutside of the list.
Right, like what you canimagine, what your photographer
can capture.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
So let's talk about now.
You're going to have to, like,make sure we're allowed to see
this photo in call it client upbefore this episode goes live,
because and say so, I wastalking about this picture we
took on this podcast.
Can we show it?
Okay?
So let's say, someone is likemaybe just can't release all
(18:31):
control and does still feel likethey're just going to feel
uncomfortable, even though theytrust you, not giving you at
least a little bit.
So if that was the case, whatwould you say if you had to?
Here's what would be great toreceive from you, like on a
(18:51):
short and narrow list.
Yeah, like if you had to,because I know, and I've seen
them all I have had lists comeover that were like 45 items
long and I'm like, no, I'mpushing it back up like a car
salesman when they send thepaper over with the dollar
amount and I'm like the one onthe other side pushing it right
(19:14):
back, saying let me change thisnumber and we're cutting that in
half, you know.
So what would you say would belike a safe spot to be like okay
, if you sent me like somethinglike this that's still going to
allow me to do everything that Ithink could potentially be
(19:34):
great about covering yourwedding with the additional time
that I would have, because I'mnot stuck looking at this piece
of paper.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Right, yes, so I have had those types of clients and
I tell them five photos.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh, that's a good number.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
You can give me five, like five that you're like I
really want this shot.
Usually they've seen it onPinterest.
Yeah, I'm like okay, you cangive me five, and I feel like
that is a reasonable amount.
That they're happy, I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Would you feel good about or be okay with?
And you can say no, like I said, you can plead the fifth and
all that stuff.
But so what if someone came toyou and said I would like to
give you a shot list, would yoube comfortable with instead, if
they like, if they let's saylike, let's say I'm the planner
(20:22):
and they told me that they wantthe photographer to take a shot
list, would it be cool or kosherfor me as a planner to say how
about this instead?
How about you make a Pinterestboard of pictures that you love,
like images that you love, andwe just send it to your
photographer so she gets an idea?
But then you, she's not or he'snot guaranteeing any of that,
(20:45):
but they have some insight intothe kinds of images like not
that it's not trying to avoidyour style, but like I like the
way these are, like these areset up for you know this, that
or the other.
Is that decent fare?
Or, like hell, don't do that.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that
, especially if there's aconversation to be had, because
I like to ask what do you likeabout these photos?
Do you see?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Like the dogs just walked in.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, my dog was like you've been spending for a
while, so it's what do you?
What's the feeling that thesepictures are giving you?
That you?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
want on your wedding day.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I think that's more important, right?
It's like how and that'ssomething I ask clients when I
do an inquiry call it's like howdo you want to feel on your
wedding day and how can I helpyou and obviously your wedding
team help you have that feelingright on your wedding day.
And most people want to feelrelaxed, right, they want to
like, be in the moment, thingslike that.
(21:51):
So, if we can have aconversation like, I don't mind
if you send a Pinterest boardwith your inspiration, but I
have a further conversation oflike what about this Do you like
?
What about this Do you want tohave from your wedding day.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Actually, I love that you putit that way.
So then you're not like, okay,I have to do this picture where
they're standing next to the barand the flower girl is sitting
to the right.
And also, something to thinkabout, guys, is every time you
add one of those pictures in,you think it's a 30 second deal.
(22:31):
That is nuts.
Tell them, tell them, kelly,tell them how long stuff like
that actually takes.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, no shots have to be set up.
If you want to be like specificshots, it takes like a couple
minutes per photo and that alsodepends on the cooperation, like
if you want to throw kids orpets into the mix.
It's going to take some time.
It's going to take some time.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
That is, and I don't think we could.
What's that?
What's that?
Hit the throne, hit the.
Okay, yes, you're right, I'mlosing my words here.
I totally did not have enoughtea this morning.
I can tell you as a fact, a lotof those kinds of images are
(23:18):
ones that we're trying to dopre-ceremony, or like during
cocktail or early dinner.
Finding these people alone tobe an image.
It's one thing that wants tojust you in the group, or you in
your bride, or you with yourparents, or something like that,
because you're in one place.
And this is actually what we'redoing, this kind of stuff right
(23:40):
now.
So, if it's a matter of lettingyour photographer know, I
really love the idea of thepicture with my parents.
If, like my dad sitting in achair and my mom and dad are
surrounding him, yeah, likeyou're already playing on doing
a picture with the three of them, of course, yes, so maybe
that's something you wouldn'tusually do, but you've already
(24:03):
set in your mind you're gettinga good picture with the parents,
exactly, you know.
So that could be something.
But it's like when that's notthe timeframe of that kind of
thing happening, or something.
It's like, just like you said,the dog during cocktail hour and
I want to be at the bar andlike okay, and also I want to
(24:25):
make sure my brother and my bestman are in it.
Where are they?
Where are they?
So, yes, it is.
You are there, like setting thething up, and I am running
around trying to find these fivepeople and one of them is at
the bar and is like I am notleaving here until I have my old
fashion in my hand.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
And that you know.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So it's what truly remember.
We said you thought this wasgoing to be 30 seconds.
We're into 15 minutes now.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Oh easy, 15 minutes Easily.
Why are things during cocktailhour People I don't think
couples realize your guests aredone.
Like if they go to friends, likeyour people in your wedding
party, your parents, like theywant to go, like they've been
with us all morning, like theywant to drink, they want to have
some food, they want to seetheir friends.
(25:16):
It's not Lai, they peace outand so it's like you have to
really wrangle these people.
So, yeah, and especially if youwant to do photos and also like
your venue could be hard tolike, if you have there's a
great venue we have in town thatI love to shoot at, but it's
literally the ceremony is Down ahill, around a bend, like in
(25:38):
front of a pond, versus thecocktail hour, like you have to
be shuttled to the Cocktail ohyeah, we have a lot of those
here to like so, if you want it.
You want like a specific shot,but we're in one part of the
venue.
It's gonna take time to go tothe other part of the venue
gather who we need.
So it's just like yeah, it justbecomes a more.
(25:59):
If you are a shot list couple,it is.
It will just be way morecomplicated than you think you
want.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
So I would say that if you are gonna be a shot list
couple which we're saying isfine, but you're signing up for
something, yes, I would also addan extra hour of coverage
Because that would allow for allof those things.
We just told you how long onepicture could take.
So if that's one picture, thatcould take 15 minutes.
(26:26):
But if that picture means thatmuch to you, of course we want
you to have it.
If it means that much to you,and it might be, cal, that
there's gonna be some imagesthat they're trying to recreate,
because I know it's a big trendright now and actually they're
kind of cute.
You know, like if you know apicture that her, you know, your
grandparents, did when they gotmarried and you want to have
(26:46):
the same image that up, maybeyou're getting married at the
same place or you know, you knowit.
You just want to recreate thatfor your generation, that we
want you to have those thingstoo.
So those are, those are shotlist things that you, we want
you to have.
I think what we want to Let youknow is the shot list where that
(27:08):
lists out all of these crazydetails, like on the flat lay.
I would like a picture of thatis just my perfume and just my
jewelry, and then on the nextflat lay, can we do it but then
add the flowers.
Like we know nobody wants thatand you're not gonna.
You're not gonna print that outand put it on your Frigerator,
you're not gonna frame it andKelly's already told you that
(27:31):
have the pictures that you'regonna put in your shot list.
You're not gonna end up puttingin your album.
And this is a professional likewe're not just making this up.
These are professionals who dothis day in and day out.
We're saying this is whatreally happens.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Hundred?
Yeah, and I'm.
And when I say shot list, I'mnot talking about like family
shot list, right?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh yeah, no, we don't do that you want with your
family.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, I'm talking about that.
I'm talking about the one likeyou saw this photo on Pinterest
and you want to recreate it likeyou're in a vineyard, popping
champagne with these glasses,your bridal party's behind you,
it's sunset, it's like there's abird flying overhead, like I'm
talking about.
These kind of shots Are notnaturally probably gonna happen
(28:16):
on your wedding day.
Yeah, kind of what we'retalking about here.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah yeah, or like the vanity fair shots like that.
You know, let me look, guys.
I gotta tell you what justhappened.
Kelly just leaned back in herseat and took a big deep breath
for that when I said that outloud.
So we know those photos areepic, they are, and I think
(28:39):
everyone loves to have them.
But listen, remember when Ijust said add on that extra time
.
You are gonna have to add onextra time for that one because
even it looks it Okay.
Those pictures don't even lookeffortless.
You can tell tape time wastaken, because it was.
You're getting all those people, you're setting up the chairs,
(29:01):
you're trying to find heightsand levels and depths, and you
know it.
That is not and that's also nota one photographer deal, am I
right?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Absolutely and yeah and those types of shots.
Okay, so I did one of those.
I feel like last year was likeprobably my first time doing one
of those where it was probably20 of their what it was like 20
people in the wedding party,yeah.
So we needed chairs, you needsetups, you have to.
Also, in all the bridesmaidshad different dresses.
(29:31):
It was like one of those.
So you have in a differentpatterns.
You just see what looks goodvisually together.
It took like 20 minutes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, exactly, exactly because it.
It's not about everyone justsits anywhere they want to.
It's because Kelly like.
So, first of all, again gettingeveryone together.
We this would be duringportrait time, group photos,
especially, like you said, ifthere are different dresses and
things like that, every singleperson has to be placed and
(30:06):
Sometimes you put them all inand you the photographer takes a
step back and takes that firstimage and it's like looks at the
back of the camera going no, wehave to move these three people
.
Here's the other end of this.
Everyone has either a good, bador indifferent attitude.
That is sitting in those chairsand standing, for instance,
(30:27):
when I make.
Every time my family getstogether, like like every time,
kelly, every time, like whengrandma and grandpa and all this
people together, I makeeveryone take a family photo, I
don't care, and they all knowit's coming.
No one walks out the doorbefore St Patrick's Day Sunday
dinner.
I don't care, I want thepicture.
Yes, every single time and I'vebeen married 25 years my husband
(30:51):
would be like I'm not doing,he's mad and I'm like listen,
one day you're gonna be so happyto have this picture, so, but
you're gonna have five of thoseof your 20 people who are done
before we started and, like yousaid, it takes so long just to
put it together that by thattime they're like can we just be
(31:13):
done?
So you don't always so.
Just know that, yes, that's anincredible image, but you have
to go into it knowing you askedfor something that is
substantial and it takessubstantial time and effort and
good attitude 100%.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
It can't be something that you plan 15, 20 minutes
for.
Like I just told you, it'lltake 20 minutes to set up the
shot and that's just the oneshot.
We still have other photos tocapture.
So I totally agree with that.
It's yeah, it takes time.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
I'm glad we talked about this because that never
would have made another showLike that's.
I'm glad it came up just now.
We're getting close to ourlimit here.
What I do wanna talk about likewhat are is there anything that
we need to be nervous aboutwhen it comes to like like a
more candid photography weddingday, when it comes to like maybe
(32:11):
images that could be missed, oranything like that, is that
something that should be aconcern to anyone?
Honestly?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
yes, because I, because I come back and not for
me.
But clients from otherphotographers have come back
wanting to do like anniversaryshots or you know, sessions
because of photos they did notcapture on their wedding day.
So in a sense, and I feel likeso, if you're going for, if a
couple is booking a reallycandid photographer, right,
(32:39):
there are some photographersthat you don't even give them a
family shot list.
You know what I mean?
Like, don't give them a list,and I just feel like if you but
you love their style, you lovetheir candid approach, then you,
if there are photos that arereally truly important to you,
you need to let them know.
I feel like the wedding day andyour wedding team is all about
(32:59):
communication, right, and I feellike I'm sure you've talked
about that on other shows.
It's like you gotta communicate.
So let's say, you love thiscandid photographer, you love
their style, but they are like ano-list person, like don't send
me a Pinterest board, don'tsend me a list.
I would still communicate thatlike, hey, I love your style, I
know you don't love a list, butI really need this photo with my
(33:20):
grandfather.
Or like I just want some time,you know, with my wedding party
or something like that.
Like frame it however you wantto, but if there are things that
are really important to you,then capture them, because
they'll tell them when you wantthem captured, because I tell
people all the time.
Your wedding day is literallyprobably one of the only times
you're gonna have all thesepeople in the same room ever,
(33:42):
right On your wedding.
So if there's something youreally want captured, you have
to just communicate it.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Okay, and do you think that these conversations
should be had before they hiredthe photographer or after they
hired the photographer?
And when I say if it's after,should it be at the beginning of
the process so you figure outhow much time should be like you
need them for, or should it belike closer to the wedding, when
they know who's coming and theykind of have some ideas in mind
(34:11):
and they know where things arehappening, or does it need to
happen all three times?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I think maybe at least twice.
I think definitely in theinquiry process, when you're
deciding who you're in a bookfor your wedding day, right,
Cause there's a lot of factorsthat go into that.
There's personality and theirstyle and their price, all these
things right.
So I think it's a fair questionto ask like, hey, what's your
approach to your wedding day?
Are you a more candidphotographer?
(34:38):
Do you, would you like me togive you a shot list or shots
that I would like you know?
What's your approach, whatworks for you?
And ideally, you're asking thisto like your top three, right?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You're not just asking the grand list, but you
know when you're trying tonarrow down.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
And then, once you figure out who's your style, I
would just it's nice to haveanother refresher conversation
at some point, I think maybe,maybe closer to the wedding day
of.
Like this is what's reallyimportant to me.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then should thatconversation kind of excuse me,
have some give some context onlike how much coverage time,
like is that?
You know what I mean?
Like I feel like thatconversation is had in the
(35:26):
beginning.
Then it's the responsibility ofthe photographer to say how
many guests are you having andhow big is your wedding party,
and just kind of knowing, likeif it is a more, you know that
they do want some of thesethings to happen.
It's like add, like I don'tsuggest to you that we have less
(35:47):
than nine hours on your weddingday and here's why.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And I think when you have a seasoned photographer,
they would know that you knowwhat I mean.
Okay, Because I mean Ipersonally feel like kind of a
minimum for wedding day is likenine hours, Like right, Like I
like time, I like time tobreathe between things.
I don't want my couple to feellike we're rushing between this,
(36:14):
this, this.
You know a lot of breath, andso I just feel like if you talk
to your couple, or, sorry, ifthe couple talks to their
photographer and they want thesecertain elements to have, I
think the timeline conversationshould be had around the same
time.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think it's a great idea.
I think it's a great idea andit's not like you have to firm
up like every.
you know every, every clock mework that we, you know, say this
is where we're going to startwith, this is where I think
we're going to end up.
But at the end, when we havethe whole timeline done, if
Kelly comes, kelly, thephotographer comes back and says
, hey, looking at this, and nowthat we know that the ceremony's
(36:51):
here, cocktail's here andreception is there and the
wedding party is actually thisnumber, now I think it would be
beneficial if we could add on ahalf an hour or an hour or
whatever, to make sure that theday isn't rushed and we have the
opportunities to do all thethings.
Right, okay, all right, kelly,thank you so much for being on
the show.
This was such a good, like funconversation Like this was a
(37:15):
good like.
The last one I did was so, oh mygosh, it was, it was with Leah
and it was about like, whentragedies happen, do you cancel
or not, and so I'm so glad tocome back and do a happy episode
.
That was a heavy one.
It was by far the heaviestwe've done and I avoided it like
(37:37):
the plague, but it needed to bedone.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I'm sure it was really valuable though.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, yeah, and it will probably get the lowest
downloads out of all of them,but for the people that need
that piece of mind and knowingyou know about, like, what I
should do, they'll listen tothat.
Nobody else will listen to it,but this one people love to know
about photography, so I'm veryexcited for them to hear it and
I'm so glad you were on thepodcast and I hope you love the
(38:04):
experience and you'll come backagain.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yes, please, as long as I'll come back any time,
you'll have me.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
After you come back from Italy that you're gonna go
do this one again.
I just don't.
I hope so.
I hope so.
Okay, girl, have a goodafternoon.
Thanks again, I reallyappreciate you.
Thanks.
I'm so glad to be able to sharemy wedding experiences and
expertise with you, and that myco-hosts are so giving it theirs
.
We truly do want you to havethe best time at your wedding,
(38:33):
and our hope is that thispodcast is helping you to make
your engagement time whileplanning your wedding that much
easier.
May I ask a favor of you?
If this is the case, would youjust take a moment to leave a
review of this podcast on yourlistening platform?
It helps people just like youto find the podcast and to also
(38:54):
find out their answer so theycan make decisions.
I would also absolutely lovefor you to give this versus that
podcast a shout out on yoursocial media.
You can find us at this versusthat wedding podcast on
Instagram, and if you would likeme to help you with a specific
question a wedding decisionplease by all means ask.
(39:16):
Send me a DM.
I would love to hear from youand maybe, just maybe even have
you as a wedding cast on afuture episode.
How fun.
Here's to another great wedding.
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