May 7, 2025 • 28 mins
Why are so many young people feeling alone in a connected world?
Hillary sits down with Dr. Lisa Lowery and Kali Jackson-Dieleman to explore the rising loneliness among Gen Z. They discuss the impact of social media, the importance of validation over sympathy, and how small, consistent acts of empathy can make a big difference in helping people feel truly seen and heard.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hillary (00:00):
Hey, hey, it's Hilary.
Join me for a helpful andhopeful chat about mental health
in our community. So grab a cupof coffee or tea. This is
Wedgwood's Coffee Breakconversation. I am so excited
for today's chat, so let's justjump right in. Thanks for
joining me. Dr Lisa Lowery andKaylee Jackson dealman, I'd love
for you both to introduceyourselves a
Dr. Lisa Lowery (00:22):
bit. Hi. My name is Dr Lisa Lowry, and I am
the Section Chief of adolescentand young adult medicine at
Helen DeVos Children's Hospital,coral health West.
Kali Jackson (00:32):
My name is Kaylee Jackson dealman. I'm a
residential Therapist here atWedgwood Christian Services.
I've been here for about fiveyears, working with at risk
youth in our cook class programwho have struggled with sexual
abuse and human trafficking.
Thank you
Hillary (00:45):
both so much for being here. Okay, so I read recently
that approximately half of theUS population reports feeling
lonely, and for Gen Z, 73% feelconstantly or sometimes feeling
alone. That's a lot of peoplewho feel like no one sees, hears
or understands them. So how isthis trend playing out in your
(01:05):
work and with the kids andfamilies that you see?
Dr. Lisa Lowery (01:08):
Well, we see it often. I mean, we saw it a lot
before we had the COVIDpandemic, and even more so now,
I think one of the things thatwe see is difficulty of people
really finding a connection, orwondering what that connection
(01:29):
feels and seems like, what whatis trying to even kind of find
that purpose. And I think wefind see it in adults as well,
but really trying to, trying tofind themselves, trying to find
that level of, and I'll use theword intimacy, but not in
necessarily relationship, one onone. Intimacy. Relationship is
(01:52):
like a, like a romantic level.
But how do I find thatconnectedness?
Kali Jackson (02:00):
Yeah, I agree. I'd say a lot with my clients, I see
them looking for some sort ofsense of purpose and community,
and when they don't see it inperson, they look online. And so
we're seeing a lot of clientslook for relationships in social
media platforms or people thatthey've never met in person,
just because there's been a lackof face to face connection or
validation that they'veexperienced in the past, so now
(02:21):
they're looking for itelsewhere.
Hillary (02:22):
Yeah. Oh, that's so scary to like look for it online
with someone you've never met.
So a musician I really like hasa concept and a lyric that he
uses a lot. It's, don't belonely by yourself, which I
appreciate, because feelinglonely is like a normal part of
the human experience in ourrange of emotions, but it's not
inherently bad, unless it's a,you know, in isolation or really
(02:45):
persistent, right? So what aresome of the common signs that a
child or a teen is feelingunseen or unheard?
Kali Jackson (03:00):
Absolutely, I'd say in the clients that I deal
with, I see a lot of like, lackof self confidence and self
purpose. They haven't hadsomeone tell them that they're
doing good before. So they'reconstantly questioning, looking
for validation without actuallyasking for it. So sometimes you
see attention seeking behaviors.
They are wanting someone tonotice them, but they're not. So
they keep doing these behaviorslouder and louder until someone
(03:21):
can say, Hey, I see you, I hearyou, and validate what they're
going through. So
Hillary (03:27):
at that point, it's almost like any attention, even
if it's bad. Attention is betterthan nothing. And
Kali Jackson (03:33):
even go back to what you said about the Lyric,
is if we aren't validating ourown emotions, we aren't modeling
to validate theirs. And a lot oftimes they're looking for kids,
look for what we're doing,right? They that's where our
first we're the ones thatthey're looking forward to learn
from. And when they're lookingat us, if we aren't validating
our emotions or allowingourselves to feel all the feels,
(03:54):
they're not going to do thateither. And so I think it first
starts there is looking inwardand allowing ourselves to model
what we want to teach. Yeah,
Dr. Lisa Lowery (04:01):
I agree. So you can have that outward expression
where they're acting out. Youcan have that inward where
they're actually turning inward.
And so they become moreisolative. So they go from going
from these outgoing people tothey're just, you know, they're
just looking, they're inward.
They're not engaging in any sortof activity. You know, they're
(04:25):
just in their bedroom all thetime. They've given up doing
things or where even the parentssays, Well, they didn't really
used to come out the room. Nowthey're not doing anything.
They're not even, some parentseven say they're not even
engaging in social media. Weeven see people, of course,
become more depressed. We seedecrease in grades and things
(04:46):
like that. And so we kind of seethose things. We can even see
them withdraw from school. Andso then there's this thing where
I kind of see where schoolavoidance. And then this school.
Will slide. And then there'sbecause sometimes becomes this
vicious cycle of social anxiety.
Well, then the child doesn'twant to go to school, then the
(05:09):
parent keeps them home, and thenthey say, Well, Dr Larry, can
you keep them from home? Andthen we're wrestling with the
kid not wanting to go to school.
And so that just sometimescontinues to perpetuate
loneliness, and so those aresome of the things you have to
tackle. And no one really wantsto say that I don't feel heard
(05:31):
and validated and seen. I mean,he wants to ask for attention,
no, right? And that's the lastthing you know. That's the one
last thing that a kid wants tobe put on spotlight in a
doctor's office or anywhere,right, right? And so those are
some of the things we have totackle. And I don't think how
often, even when we werethinking about this podcast and
(05:52):
this discussion, who wants tosay, Hey, are you feeling
lonely? Yeah. I mean, who wouldanswer that truthful and say, Oh
yes, I'm feeling lonely.
Unknown (06:00):
Yeah? Very vulnerable, very
Hillary (06:02):
vulnerable. But there's such power in it. Though, our
team had a discussion aboutfeeling a little disconnected
and lonely at church, and whenone person finally admitted it,
a few of us were like, Yeah, metoo, yeah, okay, I get that. And
then we did something about it.
And so there's a lot of power init. But you're right, the
initial like, I'm feeling lonelyis like a very hard thing to
(06:24):
say, especially for kids. I feellike kids admitting anything is
kind of a tricky situation tobegin with. I mean,
Dr. Lisa Lowery (06:33):
we all talk about it, we all laugh and go,
Okay, FOMO, the fear of missingout. And, you know, I feel
uninvited, but there issomething innately kind of
triggering when you know you seethat event posted and you
weren't admitted, you weren'tinvited, or you weren't
included. And I was actuallytalking to an adult just a few
(06:53):
days ago, and we were talkingabout, even in adulthood, how
hard it is to get thoserelationships, right? But when
we were talking about, and asI'm thinking about this, we were
there was an aspect ofloneliness. I mean, I was
thinking about this since in myown life, when are there times
you really felt lonely, and youthink about it and you're like,
(07:15):
Well, I have friends, I'minvolved in, you know, a million
different things, but then, oryou're even married or in a
relationship, but why are youfeeling lonely? What? What is
that? What is that gnawing atyou that's causing you to be
lonely? And think about this Iwas, I was seeing a patient a
(07:35):
few weeks ago, and and I know Imight say, say something
controversial. There was apatient who was, you know, being
homeschooled. And now, as theybecome older, how do you develop
that connectedness? And so theirsocial structure has always been
(07:57):
home and family, home andfamily, well, part of that home
is now leaving. And so how do Idevelop friends outside my home,
right? And so really, part ofthat conversation was okay, we
need for you to develop someextracurriculars, but outside of
(08:19):
you know, and then having anhonest conversation about yes
you are. Yes, you do have somesocial anxiety, but yes and you
are. And I hate using the wholeintrovert extrovert discussion,
right? And there's a great bookI recommend, but it's okay, you
know, sometimes we getintroverts and extroverts. You
know, you can be an introvert,and some of us are introverts,
even sitting on this podcastright now, we were talking about
(08:42):
that even before this. And wehave to will that power and so,
but, you know, okay, but we haveto nudge you into things. You
know, you know you're gonna haveto get out of your, your safe
comfort zone. But really talkingabout, and as I was thinking
about, you're feelingloneliness, right? I
Kali Jackson (09:03):
really like that.
You brought that up because Ifeel like people forget. We are
all wired with the innate desirefor connection, whether you're
introvert, extrovert, that'sjust how you charge up. But we
all want to be loved or seen orconnected everyone. That's why
you try to find community inchurch or school teams or just
those extracurriculars. It'sbecause we all desire to be
connected. So when you'refeeling lonely, it doesn't mean
(09:25):
that you don't have someone nextto you. You just may have a lack
of connection somewhere, and youneed to dig deep to rebuild
that.
Hillary (09:33):
Yeah, the way you were talking about loneliness. And
you know, we might haverelationships, but I think it
comes down to not not havingsomeone who sees you for who you
are and understands who you arewhen you are being your
authentic self. So having thatconnection with other people who
get you is so important. So ifpeople are feeling unseen and
(09:55):
unheard and misunderstood andalone, what on the flip side?
What does it mean? To feel seen,heard and validated.
Kali Jackson (10:03):
I'd say in the work that I've seen, it's just
being able to be more than justa listener. The World's Greatest
listeners do more thanlistening. They're showing up,
they are asking additionalquestions. They're asking for
clarification, and then oncethey receive all that, all those
details, they're validating. Andvalidation doesn't mean yeah,
I've been there. It just means,dang, that could be hard, and oh
(10:23):
my gosh, is there anything I cando to help? I think sometimes
people get stuck in likesympathy versus empathy and
knowing where to land. And Ithink when you think about
validation, you just have tothink about empathy. It's
showing someone that you trulycare and you're trying to be
genuine and offer validation andassistance versus sympathy, kind
of looking down upon them,because sometimes validation can
(10:44):
feel like pity, right? It canfeel at a time when you're
feeling really vulnerable andyou don't want to show up and
say, I'm lonely. Sometimesyou're fearful for the response
you're going to get. But if youget an empathetic response,
something that says, gosh, thatcould be hard, versus a
sympathetic response that'slike, gosh, that's hard for you,
it really lands down. Yeah,
Dr. Lisa Lowery (11:03):
I love that.
The World's Greatest listener. Ithink it's really like you say,
allowing people to share and bevulnerable. And it's true, one
of the things when I'm seeing mypatients is saying, you know,
what do you like to do whenyou're not hanging out at the
doctor's office? Because really,you're there. You might be there
for, you know that physical youmight be there for whatever,
that toe ache or whatever. Butwhat do you like to do? Please
(11:26):
share with me a little somethingabout yourself. And you will be
amazed that my they light upright, and they share. And
again, to me, that might be away of me being a listener,
being empathetic, learningsomething about themselves. But
then it's also for me, I get joyfor seeing them light up,
(11:50):
because so many times we alwayssay, Oh, they're just teenagers,
and I know I'm preaching to thechoir. They don't know what they
want, but they do know what theywant, and they want to be
validated and heard and andshare a little sense about
themselves. So I think that'sone of the ways we can, you
know, hear them and validatetheir experience. We all have a
(12:14):
valued experience, and whetherit's you know a few, you know
several, 50 or 60 decades ofexperience, or if it's just a
decade and a half of experience,we all have a valued experience.
And I think that's what we needto remind ourselves. My
grandmother would always say,she would say, someone someone
(12:39):
could always teach yousomething, and I'm always
constantly reminded of that, andsome on our patients, our
colleagues, our young peoplethat we engage with can teach us
something. And so I think that'swhat we have to remember and
remind ourselves.
Hillary (12:56):
So you've touched on this a little bit, but you
could, you guys, talk about howyou've seen the impact of kid on
kids mental health and theirsense of self when they feel
known and supported andunderstood.
Dr. Lisa Lowery (13:09):
I've seen them like for me, I think they buy
into and engage in their ownwellness and sense of self. And
so you see them show up forengage in their therapy, but
(13:29):
also when you say, Okay, this iswhy, for example, I want to
treat your depression. This iswhy I think you're feeling like
this. And then it's really, wecan call it per patient centered
care, you know, we have thosefancy Doctor terms that we
should use, but when you reallysay, this is, I hear you. I want
(13:52):
to understand you. I want topartner with you along this
journey, then they go, okay,they get me, you know? And I
think that's what's important.
And sometimes, you know, givingthem a little bit of autonomy.
Now sometimes I have to say, youknow, what the adults in the
room might have to make thisdecision for you. I might have
to nudge you in a particularway, however I want to hear you.
(14:15):
And sometimes I have to say, youknow, I'm hearing you and I
understand, but can we kind ofcome to a little bit of a
compromise? And even just sayingthat I hear you and I
understand, and I try to use theB, U, T word, but I hear you and
I think you, they can. You cankind of give them a little buy
in and a little and someautonomy. Yeah,
Hillary (14:39):
I love that. I
Kali Jackson (14:40):
agree with everything. Dr Lowry just said,
in addition, I would just addthat I've noticed that clients
tend to be more open inconversation as soon as they
notice that you're not judgingand you're not there to provide
a quick fix. Yeah, I think wehave kind of been bred in a
world where we don't likefeeling pain. We don't like
feeling vulnerable oruncomfortable. We've talked
about that, yeah, and so. Sopeople look for giving someone a
(15:02):
quick fix anytime they see thatpain or discomfort, but in
therapy, that's time to sit init and to recognize why are you
feeling that way, and allow themto validate their own emotions
as well as you validate theirs.
And so I realized whenindividuals had that space to be
able to just talk it out andrealize what I'm feeling is
okay, and I don't need to fix itright away. And I need to feel
these things in order to heal.
(15:23):
You got to feel it to heal it. Ijust feel like it really it
breeds a better treatmentenvironment as well as it sets
them up, sets them up for whenthey're in the community, to
look for people who they cantalk to. Further, it's not just
the therapist that's safe forthem. Now, they're looking for
anyone who will listen andprovide me genuine feedback or
care. Those are safe people I
Hillary (15:41):
can talk to as well.
Yeah, I feel like with the girlsthat you work with, Kaylee,
that's so extra important,because they've kind of come
from a space where no one washearing them, no one was seeing
them, and it kind of got theminto a bad place. And so to have
it on kind of the flip side setsthem up for establishing healthy
relationships moving forward andbeing healthy people.
Kali Jackson (16:02):
I have so many clients who have came here and
haven't fully told their storyyet, right? But as soon as they
get here and they have someonewilling to genuinely bear
witness to their story, providevalidation. Now they're they're
disclosing several assaults. Nowwe're at a place where we are
able to seek justice for severalthings that have maybe gone
unheard because they never feltsafe or they never felt like
(16:22):
someone really believed them. Soit is. It's heartwarming to see
what little, what I think is solittle, is validating, right? Is
life changing to them, for themto be able to now speak up,
share their story and getjustice at times amazing. That's
Hillary (16:36):
so amazing. And you guys have both talked about
validation quite a bit, and so Iwant to just clarify something
that validation doesn'tnecessarily mean, like condoning
or agreeing or saying that it'sright. Can you talk about that a
little
Dr. Lisa Lowery (16:50):
bit? Yeah, I thank you for saying that,
because that is one of thethings I always tell my patients
and families when I'm meetingwith you, I'm saying you can be
open and honest with me, and I'mgoing to be open and honest with
you, and we may not agree oneverything, and I want you to be
open and honest with me, and itdoesn't mean I'm going to
condone it, but I want you to beopen and honest with me, and
(17:10):
we're going to come to some kindof understanding. But as long as
you're open and honest with me,I'm going to be open and honest
with you, and my patients willeven say, Okay, Dr Lyon, I don't
want you coming in, you know,saying this or that, all right
then, but it's that mutualunderstanding. And I think
sometimes what patients andclients want is that level of
(17:35):
consistency. And what you saidthat non judgmental consistency.
I can let you be vulnerable. Ican let you be honest. I'm not
going to judge you, and this isthe thing I'm going to say. Or
they, they, you can have thatloving judgment where, like,
that safe judgment, where, youknow, I'm going to hold you
accountable. Be like, Yep, Imessed up, but you're my safe
(17:58):
zone. Yeah, you know, I alwayssay I'm better. We're better
than Vegas, you know what stage,but I'm gonna be that safe zone
for you. Okay, yep, you messedup, but like, let's work through
this. And I've and now I've beendoing this long enough now I'm
seeing some of my formerpatients and their teenagers. I
don't know how that happenedafter 20 years, but that's it's
that consistency. And so I thinkwhen you open that level of
(18:22):
communication up, you're saying,I'm not condoning that. However,
let's, let's come to a placewhere we can help and guide you
through this and work throughthis. It's important
Kali Jackson (18:34):
to remember that in that moment, it's, it's true
to them, right? Yeah. So whenwe're validating I'm not
validating it for me andvalidating it for you. So if
that's true to you, that's yourtruth, and I'm just here to sit
in it with you. And yeah,there's times where maybe we're
gonna guide you in a differentdirection, because I want you to
learn better. But in the moment,that is your truth and
validation, as simple as that asGosh, that's hard. I see you.
(18:56):
Whatever they're expressing inthat moment is true. And how can
I help you get through it? Or ifyou don't want to get through it
right now, how can I help yousit in it? Yeah, in it? Yeah?
And that's all it has
Hillary (19:04):
to be, yeah. When you're as you're talking about
it, I was thinking that part ofbeing connected and feeling seen
and heard is like the all of it,you know, you can't it's not
just the good things. It's thethings that you're struggling
with that are hard, the thingsthat you're like, Gosh, I really
don't want to tell Dr Loweryabout that, but I have to. And
so you have to be able to workthrough all of those things and
(19:25):
be a space where they can sharethe good and the bad, because
that's what makes you a wholeperson. The stats I mentioned at
the beginning of our littlecoffee break, it was half of
Americans, so it was the adultstoo are feeling lonely. So how
do we model being connected andhaving strong relationships and
feelings seen and heard whenwe're also striving for that
(19:48):
ourselves?
Dr. Lisa Lowery (19:50):
I really think, like you said, it's modeling,
and I think for parents, for theadults and the lives, it's that.
Consistency, but role modelingwhat healthy looks like. And so
having those, I mean, I'm nottelling parents to open up and
tell your kids what younecessarily like, your deepest,
(20:11):
darkest secrets. This is whatI'm struggling with, but really
modeling like, you know what?
I'm working on myself, and I'mseeking out therapy, having
those open spaces andrelationships and conversations.
And I think one of the things Itry to tell parents and adults
is it's that consistency, andit's not that it does not have
to be that one and doneconversation. It should not be
(20:33):
that one and done conversation.
You know, it's you can havethose short snippet car ride
conversations opening up. Thisis an open time for us to, you
know, I'm here to have thatconversation with you, but
that's where I really try tosave for a patient, you know,
(20:55):
and parents. It doesn't have tobe, it doesn't it's not hard.
It's not this one time lecture,yeah. Should not never be
election.
Hillary (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Kali Jackson (21:04):
I think modeling is the biggest thing. And when
you think about modeling, it hasto be ongoing, like you said, as
well as you have to think aboutthe emotional intelligence that
needs to be in the room. When weteach kids emotions, we often
think about happy, sad and likeour our basic senses of
emotions. But as we get olderand emotions expand, what about
(21:24):
lonely, bored, fatigue, stress,if we can teach individuals that
those emotions happen in theirnormal by modeling that we're
also teaching them that it'sokay to to find a way to get
through it right, and to showthem what helps us, what helps
me as an adult, may not what,what may not help my daughter
one day, right, but I can showher that I tried that, and it
was something that I thought wasimportant to do, rather than to
(21:47):
just let it be. There's animportance in trying to find
some coping skills in life.
Dr. Lisa Lowery (21:52):
Yeah, and your children, and the people, the
young people in our lives, arereally watching us. How are we
dealing with this? How are we?
How are you dealing with thestress of life? How are you? How
are you interacting with otherpeople? I mean, you know, when
you hear a child or a teenagersay, Tell an adult, you know
what? My parent is gonna come upto school and talk bad to you,
(22:14):
that's because they've seen thatmodel behavior, so let's not
model that bad behavior, youknow. How do we engage with
other people? So, how are youmodeling, how are you dealing
with stress, you know what? Andif you did something and acted
out and said, You know what, Iprobably I handled that
situation wrong. You know, Ihandle that because I was
(22:34):
fatigued, I was stressed. Howare we dealing with that? And so
again, modeling that behavior isreally important.
Hillary (22:43):
So are there some simple, everyday ways that
caregivers, educators, mentors,can help kids feel valued and
seen?
Kali Jackson (22:52):
I'd say first step, stop listening to respond
and listen to understand. Askthose clarifying questions. See
where you can help and look froman empathetic response, instead
of sympathetic, see how you canput yourself in that person's
shoes when, if ever possible,and see what assistance you
could provide. And if you can'tprovide anything, just telling
them that it's okay to be wherethey're at is enough.
Dr. Lisa Lowery (23:15):
I love that. I love that. Just listening and
time. I think one of the thingswhen you sit and talk to our
young people, it really is justtime, and it doesn't have to be
a lot of time. It can be 510,minutes, and putting down the
(23:38):
phones and just looking andlistening and and being present.
And I think that's what ouryoung people, everybody is
craving, and just that beingpresent. And when you think of
that, that's where lonelinessstems from if you're not
(24:02):
present, if I don't feel heard,if I don't feel validated. So
that's something simple. How canyou show up in someone's life,
if it's just if you have a youngperson in within your sphere?
And what I mean that could be assimple as if you at church and
have a young person, Hey, how'sit going? How was your week?
(24:23):
Have a great week today. Have agreat week this week. You know,
how's it going? What are youdoing? Whatever you can do. And
anybody can do that, no matterhow you how old you are, we have
gotten away from that in ourcommunity, I remember, and I'm
still blessed to be aroundpeople in my life, the people
(24:45):
the matriarchs and thepatriarchs. And that would come,
hey, how you doing? How'sschool? And they would touch on
you. And then as we got older,they would give you a little
crumpled up money. Maybe you areable to give them a little
crumpled up money. I don't knowwhere you are back in day. Give
you a little crumpled up $10 andsqueeze and put in your hand. If
you are at that capacity, youcan give them a little crumpled
(25:06):
up money. Yeah, no, they mightnot know what to do it because,
you know, everybody has cash.
But if you can do that, show upwhere you can, yeah, but be a
listening. And you know, ifyou're in your professional
space, just stop, take that twoto three minutes and listen. I
think that those are some of thethings that you can those easy
tips that you can do.
Hillary (25:27):
What's funny about the advice that you both gave is
it's almost not even likesomething to do. You just show
up and be like. The whole pointis, you don't have to do
anything. You just
Kali Jackson (25:37):
be a person. Yeah, yeah. Be a kind person. Show
that you care. Not only careabout their emotions, but care
about what's going on in theirgeneral Yeah, just be nice.
Like, think
Hillary (25:46):
about how great it feels when you've, like, run
into someone and they rememberthe thing that you told them the
last time you saw them. Youalways feel like, oh, wow, I
can't believe they rememberthat. Like, imagine how a kid
would feel if you remember thatthey're into Legos and ask them
what they built this week. Like,
Kali Jackson (26:01):
just think about how excited you are when you
hold the door open for someoneand they say, thank you. You're
like, you know, like, I didgood. But if they don't say
anything, you're like, Oh no,you know, yeah, what just
happened? There something assimple as that interaction is
validating, and it made adifference in how someone
perceived it, right? Smallactions really build into these
big things. So
Hillary (26:21):
good. Is there anything else you want our brew crew to
know?
Dr. Lisa Lowery (26:26):
You know what I always when I give talks, always
say, Just begin with yoursphere. And I think for
whoever's listening yourpodcast, all of these things can
be overwhelming, but just it'slike you said the little things.
And so the next time you see ayoung person, just be like, Hey,
how you doing? Hope you have agreat day. And I'll be honest,
my husband, who happens to be ineducation, he does a really good
(26:50):
job of that. And so I will sayhe models that behavior for me
outside of my sphere of my I do,I think I do a really good job
of my work spirit. But whenwe're outside of that work, he
does a really good job of that,and so he models that behavior
for me. And so just do what youcan do and and so you know
(27:14):
whether where you are just justlook into a kid's eyes and say,
Hey, how you doing? Have a greatweek.
Kali Jackson (27:20):
It's awesome.
Yeah, I would just say, continueto try every day see how many
differences you can make. Makeone person smile, and that'll
continue to buildcontagiousness, right, as they
continue to try to make otherpeople smile. Now you plan to
see that will continue to bloom.
I love that.
Hillary (27:37):
I love that so much.
This was so such a greatconversation. I am so grateful
that you both could take thetime out of your important work
to sit down with me today andthank you for listening or
watching to Wedgwood's CoffeeBreak conversation podcast. You
can help us get these importantmental health chats in front of
more people by rating andreviewing the show, give us five
stars and a quick comment on whyyou listen on your favorite
(28:00):
podcast platform or on YouTube.
It makes a big difference, andyou can also check out
wedgwood.org/podcast for funways you can support Wedgwood
and the show. Stay hopeful, stayhelpful, and let's have another
coffee break soon. You.
Hey, hey, it's Hilary.
Join me for a helpful andhopeful chat about mental health
in our community. So grab a cupof coffee or tea. This is
Wedgwood's Coffee Breakconversation. I am so excited
for today's chat, so let's justjump right in. Thanks for
joining me. Dr Lisa Lowery andKaylee Jackson dealman, I'd love
for you both to introduceyourselves a
Dr. Lisa Lowery (00:22):
bit. Hi. My name is Dr Lisa Lowry, and I am
the Section Chief of adolescentand young adult medicine at
Helen DeVos Children's Hospital,coral health West.
Kali Jackson (00:32):
My name is Kaylee Jackson dealman. I'm a
residential Therapist here atWedgwood Christian Services.
I've been here for about fiveyears, working with at risk
youth in our cook class programwho have struggled with sexual
abuse and human trafficking.
Thank you
Hillary (00:45):
both so much for being here. Okay, so I read recently
that approximately half of theUS population reports feeling
lonely, and for Gen Z, 73% feelconstantly or sometimes feeling
alone. That's a lot of peoplewho feel like no one sees, hears
or understands them. So how isthis trend playing out in your
(01:05):
work and with the kids andfamilies that you see?
Dr. Lisa Lowery (01:08):
Well, we see it often. I mean, we saw it a lot
before we had the COVIDpandemic, and even more so now,
I think one of the things thatwe see is difficulty of people
really finding a connection, orwondering what that connection
(01:29):
feels and seems like, what whatis trying to even kind of find
that purpose. And I think wefind see it in adults as well,
but really trying to, trying tofind themselves, trying to find
that level of, and I'll use theword intimacy, but not in
necessarily relationship, one onone. Intimacy. Relationship is
(01:52):
like a, like a romantic level.
But how do I find thatconnectedness?
Kali Jackson (02:00):
Yeah, I agree. I'd say a lot with my clients, I see
them looking for some sort ofsense of purpose and community,
and when they don't see it inperson, they look online. And so
we're seeing a lot of clientslook for relationships in social
media platforms or people thatthey've never met in person,
just because there's been a lackof face to face connection or
validation that they'veexperienced in the past, so now
(02:21):
they're looking for itelsewhere.
Hillary (02:22):
Yeah. Oh, that's so scary to like look for it online
with someone you've never met.
So a musician I really like hasa concept and a lyric that he
uses a lot. It's, don't belonely by yourself, which I
appreciate, because feelinglonely is like a normal part of
the human experience in ourrange of emotions, but it's not
inherently bad, unless it's a,you know, in isolation or really
(02:45):
persistent, right? So what aresome of the common signs that a
child or a teen is feelingunseen or unheard?
Kali Jackson (03:00):
Absolutely, I'd say in the clients that I deal
with, I see a lot of like, lackof self confidence and self
purpose. They haven't hadsomeone tell them that they're
doing good before. So they'reconstantly questioning, looking
for validation without actuallyasking for it. So sometimes you
see attention seeking behaviors.
They are wanting someone tonotice them, but they're not. So
they keep doing these behaviorslouder and louder until someone
(03:21):
can say, Hey, I see you, I hearyou, and validate what they're
going through. So
Hillary (03:27):
at that point, it's almost like any attention, even
if it's bad. Attention is betterthan nothing. And
Kali Jackson (03:33):
even go back to what you said about the Lyric,
is if we aren't validating ourown emotions, we aren't modeling
to validate theirs. And a lot oftimes they're looking for kids,
look for what we're doing,right? They that's where our
first we're the ones thatthey're looking forward to learn
from. And when they're lookingat us, if we aren't validating
our emotions or allowingourselves to feel all the feels,
(03:54):
they're not going to do thateither. And so I think it first
starts there is looking inwardand allowing ourselves to model
what we want to teach. Yeah,
Dr. Lisa Lowery (04:01):
I agree. So you can have that outward expression
where they're acting out. Youcan have that inward where
they're actually turning inward.
And so they become moreisolative. So they go from going
from these outgoing people tothey're just, you know, they're
just looking, they're inward.
They're not engaging in any sortof activity. You know, they're
(04:25):
just in their bedroom all thetime. They've given up doing
things or where even the parentssays, Well, they didn't really
used to come out the room. Nowthey're not doing anything.
They're not even, some parentseven say they're not even
engaging in social media. Weeven see people, of course,
become more depressed. We seedecrease in grades and things
(04:46):
like that. And so we kind of seethose things. We can even see
them withdraw from school. Andso then there's this thing where
I kind of see where schoolavoidance. And then this school.
Will slide. And then there'sbecause sometimes becomes this
vicious cycle of social anxiety.
Well, then the child doesn'twant to go to school, then the
(05:09):
parent keeps them home, and thenthey say, Well, Dr Larry, can
you keep them from home? Andthen we're wrestling with the
kid not wanting to go to school.
And so that just sometimescontinues to perpetuate
loneliness, and so those aresome of the things you have to
tackle. And no one really wantsto say that I don't feel heard
(05:31):
and validated and seen. I mean,he wants to ask for attention,
no, right? And that's the lastthing you know. That's the one
last thing that a kid wants tobe put on spotlight in a
doctor's office or anywhere,right, right? And so those are
some of the things we have totackle. And I don't think how
often, even when we werethinking about this podcast and
(05:52):
this discussion, who wants tosay, Hey, are you feeling
lonely? Yeah. I mean, who wouldanswer that truthful and say, Oh
yes, I'm feeling lonely.
Unknown (06:00):
Yeah? Very vulnerable, very
Hillary (06:02):
vulnerable. But there's such power in it. Though, our
team had a discussion aboutfeeling a little disconnected
and lonely at church, and whenone person finally admitted it,
a few of us were like, Yeah, metoo, yeah, okay, I get that. And
then we did something about it.
And so there's a lot of power init. But you're right, the
initial like, I'm feeling lonelyis like a very hard thing to
(06:24):
say, especially for kids. I feellike kids admitting anything is
kind of a tricky situation tobegin with. I mean,
Dr. Lisa Lowery (06:33):
we all talk about it, we all laugh and go,
Okay, FOMO, the fear of missingout. And, you know, I feel
uninvited, but there issomething innately kind of
triggering when you know you seethat event posted and you
weren't admitted, you weren'tinvited, or you weren't
included. And I was actuallytalking to an adult just a few
(06:53):
days ago, and we were talkingabout, even in adulthood, how
hard it is to get thoserelationships, right? But when
we were talking about, and asI'm thinking about this, we were
there was an aspect ofloneliness. I mean, I was
thinking about this since in myown life, when are there times
you really felt lonely, and youthink about it and you're like,
(07:15):
Well, I have friends, I'minvolved in, you know, a million
different things, but then, oryou're even married or in a
relationship, but why are youfeeling lonely? What? What is
that? What is that gnawing atyou that's causing you to be
lonely? And think about this Iwas, I was seeing a patient a
(07:35):
few weeks ago, and and I know Imight say, say something
controversial. There was apatient who was, you know, being
homeschooled. And now, as theybecome older, how do you develop
that connectedness? And so theirsocial structure has always been
(07:57):
home and family, home andfamily, well, part of that home
is now leaving. And so how do Idevelop friends outside my home,
right? And so really, part ofthat conversation was okay, we
need for you to develop someextracurriculars, but outside of
(08:19):
you know, and then having anhonest conversation about yes
you are. Yes, you do have somesocial anxiety, but yes and you
are. And I hate using the wholeintrovert extrovert discussion,
right? And there's a great bookI recommend, but it's okay, you
know, sometimes we getintroverts and extroverts. You
know, you can be an introvert,and some of us are introverts,
even sitting on this podcastright now, we were talking about
(08:42):
that even before this. And wehave to will that power and so,
but, you know, okay, but we haveto nudge you into things. You
know, you know you're gonna haveto get out of your, your safe
comfort zone. But really talkingabout, and as I was thinking
about, you're feelingloneliness, right? I
Kali Jackson (09:03):
really like that.
You brought that up because Ifeel like people forget. We are
all wired with the innate desirefor connection, whether you're
introvert, extrovert, that'sjust how you charge up. But we
all want to be loved or seen orconnected everyone. That's why
you try to find community inchurch or school teams or just
those extracurriculars. It'sbecause we all desire to be
connected. So when you'refeeling lonely, it doesn't mean
(09:25):
that you don't have someone nextto you. You just may have a lack
of connection somewhere, and youneed to dig deep to rebuild
that.
Hillary (09:33):
Yeah, the way you were talking about loneliness. And
you know, we might haverelationships, but I think it
comes down to not not havingsomeone who sees you for who you
are and understands who you arewhen you are being your
authentic self. So having thatconnection with other people who
get you is so important. So ifpeople are feeling unseen and
(09:55):
unheard and misunderstood andalone, what on the flip side?
What does it mean? To feel seen,heard and validated.
Kali Jackson (10:03):
I'd say in the work that I've seen, it's just
being able to be more than justa listener. The World's Greatest
listeners do more thanlistening. They're showing up,
they are asking additionalquestions. They're asking for
clarification, and then oncethey receive all that, all those
details, they're validating. Andvalidation doesn't mean yeah,
I've been there. It just means,dang, that could be hard, and oh
(10:23):
my gosh, is there anything I cando to help? I think sometimes
people get stuck in likesympathy versus empathy and
knowing where to land. And Ithink when you think about
validation, you just have tothink about empathy. It's
showing someone that you trulycare and you're trying to be
genuine and offer validation andassistance versus sympathy, kind
of looking down upon them,because sometimes validation can
(10:44):
feel like pity, right? It canfeel at a time when you're
feeling really vulnerable andyou don't want to show up and
say, I'm lonely. Sometimesyou're fearful for the response
you're going to get. But if youget an empathetic response,
something that says, gosh, thatcould be hard, versus a
sympathetic response that'slike, gosh, that's hard for you,
it really lands down. Yeah,
Dr. Lisa Lowery (11:03):
I love that.
The World's Greatest listener. Ithink it's really like you say,
allowing people to share and bevulnerable. And it's true, one
of the things when I'm seeing mypatients is saying, you know,
what do you like to do whenyou're not hanging out at the
doctor's office? Because really,you're there. You might be there
for, you know that physical youmight be there for whatever,
that toe ache or whatever. Butwhat do you like to do? Please
(11:26):
share with me a little somethingabout yourself. And you will be
amazed that my they light upright, and they share. And
again, to me, that might be away of me being a listener,
being empathetic, learningsomething about themselves. But
then it's also for me, I get joyfor seeing them light up,
(11:50):
because so many times we alwayssay, Oh, they're just teenagers,
and I know I'm preaching to thechoir. They don't know what they
want, but they do know what theywant, and they want to be
validated and heard and andshare a little sense about
themselves. So I think that'sone of the ways we can, you
know, hear them and validatetheir experience. We all have a
(12:14):
valued experience, and whetherit's you know a few, you know
several, 50 or 60 decades ofexperience, or if it's just a
decade and a half of experience,we all have a valued experience.
And I think that's what we needto remind ourselves. My
grandmother would always say,she would say, someone someone
(12:39):
could always teach yousomething, and I'm always
constantly reminded of that, andsome on our patients, our
colleagues, our young peoplethat we engage with can teach us
something. And so I think that'swhat we have to remember and
remind ourselves.
Hillary (12:56):
So you've touched on this a little bit, but you
could, you guys, talk about howyou've seen the impact of kid on
kids mental health and theirsense of self when they feel
known and supported andunderstood.
Dr. Lisa Lowery (13:09):
I've seen them like for me, I think they buy
into and engage in their ownwellness and sense of self. And
so you see them show up forengage in their therapy, but
(13:29):
also when you say, Okay, this iswhy, for example, I want to
treat your depression. This iswhy I think you're feeling like
this. And then it's really, wecan call it per patient centered
care, you know, we have thosefancy Doctor terms that we
should use, but when you reallysay, this is, I hear you. I want
(13:52):
to understand you. I want topartner with you along this
journey, then they go, okay,they get me, you know? And I
think that's what's important.
And sometimes, you know, givingthem a little bit of autonomy.
Now sometimes I have to say, youknow, what the adults in the
room might have to make thisdecision for you. I might have
to nudge you in a particularway, however I want to hear you.
(14:15):
And sometimes I have to say, youknow, I'm hearing you and I
understand, but can we kind ofcome to a little bit of a
compromise? And even just sayingthat I hear you and I
understand, and I try to use theB, U, T word, but I hear you and
I think you, they can. You cankind of give them a little buy
in and a little and someautonomy. Yeah,
Hillary (14:39):
I love that. I
Kali Jackson (14:40):
agree with everything. Dr Lowry just said,
in addition, I would just addthat I've noticed that clients
tend to be more open inconversation as soon as they
notice that you're not judgingand you're not there to provide
a quick fix. Yeah, I think wehave kind of been bred in a
world where we don't likefeeling pain. We don't like
feeling vulnerable oruncomfortable. We've talked
about that, yeah, and so. Sopeople look for giving someone a
(15:02):
quick fix anytime they see thatpain or discomfort, but in
therapy, that's time to sit init and to recognize why are you
feeling that way, and allow themto validate their own emotions
as well as you validate theirs.
And so I realized whenindividuals had that space to be
able to just talk it out andrealize what I'm feeling is
okay, and I don't need to fix itright away. And I need to feel
these things in order to heal.
(15:23):
You got to feel it to heal it. Ijust feel like it really it
breeds a better treatmentenvironment as well as it sets
them up, sets them up for whenthey're in the community, to
look for people who they cantalk to. Further, it's not just
the therapist that's safe forthem. Now, they're looking for
anyone who will listen andprovide me genuine feedback or
care. Those are safe people I
Hillary (15:41):
can talk to as well.
Yeah, I feel like with the girlsthat you work with, Kaylee,
that's so extra important,because they've kind of come
from a space where no one washearing them, no one was seeing
them, and it kind of got theminto a bad place. And so to have
it on kind of the flip side setsthem up for establishing healthy
relationships moving forward andbeing healthy people.
Kali Jackson (16:02):
I have so many clients who have came here and
haven't fully told their storyyet, right? But as soon as they
get here and they have someonewilling to genuinely bear
witness to their story, providevalidation. Now they're they're
disclosing several assaults. Nowwe're at a place where we are
able to seek justice for severalthings that have maybe gone
unheard because they never feltsafe or they never felt like
(16:22):
someone really believed them. Soit is. It's heartwarming to see
what little, what I think is solittle, is validating, right? Is
life changing to them, for themto be able to now speak up,
share their story and getjustice at times amazing. That's
Hillary (16:36):
so amazing. And you guys have both talked about
validation quite a bit, and so Iwant to just clarify something
that validation doesn'tnecessarily mean, like condoning
or agreeing or saying that it'sright. Can you talk about that a
little
Dr. Lisa Lowery (16:50):
bit? Yeah, I thank you for saying that,
because that is one of thethings I always tell my patients
and families when I'm meetingwith you, I'm saying you can be
open and honest with me, and I'mgoing to be open and honest with
you, and we may not agree oneverything, and I want you to be
open and honest with me, and itdoesn't mean I'm going to
condone it, but I want you to beopen and honest with me, and
(17:10):
we're going to come to some kindof understanding. But as long as
you're open and honest with me,I'm going to be open and honest
with you, and my patients willeven say, Okay, Dr Lyon, I don't
want you coming in, you know,saying this or that, all right
then, but it's that mutualunderstanding. And I think
sometimes what patients andclients want is that level of
(17:35):
consistency. And what you saidthat non judgmental consistency.
I can let you be vulnerable. Ican let you be honest. I'm not
going to judge you, and this isthe thing I'm going to say. Or
they, they, you can have thatloving judgment where, like,
that safe judgment, where, youknow, I'm going to hold you
accountable. Be like, Yep, Imessed up, but you're my safe
(17:58):
zone. Yeah, you know, I alwayssay I'm better. We're better
than Vegas, you know what stage,but I'm gonna be that safe zone
for you. Okay, yep, you messedup, but like, let's work through
this. And I've and now I've beendoing this long enough now I'm
seeing some of my formerpatients and their teenagers. I
don't know how that happenedafter 20 years, but that's it's
that consistency. And so I thinkwhen you open that level of
(18:22):
communication up, you're saying,I'm not condoning that. However,
let's, let's come to a placewhere we can help and guide you
through this and work throughthis. It's important
Kali Jackson (18:34):
to remember that in that moment, it's, it's true
to them, right? Yeah. So whenwe're validating I'm not
validating it for me andvalidating it for you. So if
that's true to you, that's yourtruth, and I'm just here to sit
in it with you. And yeah,there's times where maybe we're
gonna guide you in a differentdirection, because I want you to
learn better. But in the moment,that is your truth and
validation, as simple as that asGosh, that's hard. I see you.
(18:56):
Whatever they're expressing inthat moment is true. And how can
I help you get through it? Or ifyou don't want to get through it
right now, how can I help yousit in it? Yeah, in it? Yeah?
And that's all it has
Hillary (19:04):
to be, yeah. When you're as you're talking about
it, I was thinking that part ofbeing connected and feeling seen
and heard is like the all of it,you know, you can't it's not
just the good things. It's thethings that you're struggling
with that are hard, the thingsthat you're like, Gosh, I really
don't want to tell Dr Loweryabout that, but I have to. And
so you have to be able to workthrough all of those things and
(19:25):
be a space where they can sharethe good and the bad, because
that's what makes you a wholeperson. The stats I mentioned at
the beginning of our littlecoffee break, it was half of
Americans, so it was the adultstoo are feeling lonely. So how
do we model being connected andhaving strong relationships and
feelings seen and heard whenwe're also striving for that
(19:48):
ourselves?
Dr. Lisa Lowery (19:50):
I really think, like you said, it's modeling,
and I think for parents, for theadults and the lives, it's that.
Consistency, but role modelingwhat healthy looks like. And so
having those, I mean, I'm nottelling parents to open up and
tell your kids what younecessarily like, your deepest,
(20:11):
darkest secrets. This is whatI'm struggling with, but really
modeling like, you know what?
I'm working on myself, and I'mseeking out therapy, having
those open spaces andrelationships and conversations.
And I think one of the things Itry to tell parents and adults
is it's that consistency, andit's not that it does not have
to be that one and doneconversation. It should not be
(20:33):
that one and done conversation.
You know, it's you can havethose short snippet car ride
conversations opening up. Thisis an open time for us to, you
know, I'm here to have thatconversation with you, but
that's where I really try tosave for a patient, you know,
(20:55):
and parents. It doesn't have tobe, it doesn't it's not hard.
It's not this one time lecture,yeah. Should not never be
election.
Hillary (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Kali Jackson (21:04):
I think modeling is the biggest thing. And when
you think about modeling, it hasto be ongoing, like you said, as
well as you have to think aboutthe emotional intelligence that
needs to be in the room. When weteach kids emotions, we often
think about happy, sad and likeour our basic senses of
emotions. But as we get olderand emotions expand, what about
(21:24):
lonely, bored, fatigue, stress,if we can teach individuals that
those emotions happen in theirnormal by modeling that we're
also teaching them that it'sokay to to find a way to get
through it right, and to showthem what helps us, what helps
me as an adult, may not what,what may not help my daughter
one day, right, but I can showher that I tried that, and it
was something that I thought wasimportant to do, rather than to
(21:47):
just let it be. There's animportance in trying to find
some coping skills in life.
Dr. Lisa Lowery (21:52):
Yeah, and your children, and the people, the
young people in our lives, arereally watching us. How are we
dealing with this? How are we?
How are you dealing with thestress of life? How are you? How
are you interacting with otherpeople? I mean, you know, when
you hear a child or a teenagersay, Tell an adult, you know
what? My parent is gonna come upto school and talk bad to you,
(22:14):
that's because they've seen thatmodel behavior, so let's not
model that bad behavior, youknow. How do we engage with
other people? So, how are youmodeling, how are you dealing
with stress, you know what? Andif you did something and acted
out and said, You know what, Iprobably I handled that
situation wrong. You know, Ihandle that because I was
(22:34):
fatigued, I was stressed. Howare we dealing with that? And so
again, modeling that behavior isreally important.
Hillary (22:43):
So are there some simple, everyday ways that
caregivers, educators, mentors,can help kids feel valued and
seen?
Kali Jackson (22:52):
I'd say first step, stop listening to respond
and listen to understand. Askthose clarifying questions. See
where you can help and look froman empathetic response, instead
of sympathetic, see how you canput yourself in that person's
shoes when, if ever possible,and see what assistance you
could provide. And if you can'tprovide anything, just telling
them that it's okay to be wherethey're at is enough.
Dr. Lisa Lowery (23:15):
I love that. I love that. Just listening and
time. I think one of the thingswhen you sit and talk to our
young people, it really is justtime, and it doesn't have to be
a lot of time. It can be 510,minutes, and putting down the
(23:38):
phones and just looking andlistening and and being present.
And I think that's what ouryoung people, everybody is
craving, and just that beingpresent. And when you think of
that, that's where lonelinessstems from if you're not
(24:02):
present, if I don't feel heard,if I don't feel validated. So
that's something simple. How canyou show up in someone's life,
if it's just if you have a youngperson in within your sphere?
And what I mean that could be assimple as if you at church and
have a young person, Hey, how'sit going? How was your week?
(24:23):
Have a great week today. Have agreat week this week. You know,
how's it going? What are youdoing? Whatever you can do. And
anybody can do that, no matterhow you how old you are, we have
gotten away from that in ourcommunity, I remember, and I'm
still blessed to be aroundpeople in my life, the people
(24:45):
the matriarchs and thepatriarchs. And that would come,
hey, how you doing? How'sschool? And they would touch on
you. And then as we got older,they would give you a little
crumpled up money. Maybe you areable to give them a little
crumpled up money. I don't knowwhere you are back in day. Give
you a little crumpled up $10 andsqueeze and put in your hand. If
you are at that capacity, youcan give them a little crumpled
(25:06):
up money. Yeah, no, they mightnot know what to do it because,
you know, everybody has cash.
But if you can do that, show upwhere you can, yeah, but be a
listening. And you know, ifyou're in your professional
space, just stop, take that twoto three minutes and listen. I
think that those are some of thethings that you can those easy
tips that you can do.
Hillary (25:27):
What's funny about the advice that you both gave is
it's almost not even likesomething to do. You just show
up and be like. The whole pointis, you don't have to do
anything. You just
Kali Jackson (25:37):
be a person. Yeah, yeah. Be a kind person. Show
that you care. Not only careabout their emotions, but care
about what's going on in theirgeneral Yeah, just be nice.
Like, think
Hillary (25:46):
about how great it feels when you've, like, run
into someone and they rememberthe thing that you told them the
last time you saw them. Youalways feel like, oh, wow, I
can't believe they rememberthat. Like, imagine how a kid
would feel if you remember thatthey're into Legos and ask them
what they built this week. Like,
Kali Jackson (26:01):
just think about how excited you are when you
hold the door open for someoneand they say, thank you. You're
like, you know, like, I didgood. But if they don't say
anything, you're like, Oh no,you know, yeah, what just
happened? There something assimple as that interaction is
validating, and it made adifference in how someone
perceived it, right? Smallactions really build into these
big things. So
Hillary (26:21):
good. Is there anything else you want our brew crew to
know?
Dr. Lisa Lowery (26:26):
You know what I always when I give talks, always
say, Just begin with yoursphere. And I think for
whoever's listening yourpodcast, all of these things can
be overwhelming, but just it'slike you said the little things.
And so the next time you see ayoung person, just be like, Hey,
how you doing? Hope you have agreat day. And I'll be honest,
my husband, who happens to be ineducation, he does a really good
(26:50):
job of that. And so I will sayhe models that behavior for me
outside of my sphere of my I do,I think I do a really good job
of my work spirit. But whenwe're outside of that work, he
does a really good job of that,and so he models that behavior
for me. And so just do what youcan do and and so you know
(27:14):
whether where you are just justlook into a kid's eyes and say,
Hey, how you doing? Have a greatweek.
Kali Jackson (27:20):
It's awesome.
Yeah, I would just say, continueto try every day see how many
differences you can make. Makeone person smile, and that'll
continue to buildcontagiousness, right, as they
continue to try to make otherpeople smile. Now you plan to
see that will continue to bloom.
I love that.
Hillary (27:37):
I love that so much.
This was so such a greatconversation. I am so grateful
that you both could take thetime out of your important work
to sit down with me today andthank you for listening or
watching to Wedgwood's CoffeeBreak conversation podcast. You
can help us get these importantmental health chats in front of
more people by rating andreviewing the show, give us five
stars and a quick comment on whyyou listen on your favorite
(28:00):
podcast platform or on YouTube.
It makes a big difference, andyou can also check out
wedgwood.org/podcast for funways you can support Wedgwood
and the show. Stay hopeful, stayhelpful, and let's have another
coffee break soon. You.
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