December 4, 2024 • 52 mins
Imagine finding strength in silence and wisdom in the unspoken stories of the past. This episode brings you a heartfelt conversation with the extraordinary Mom McGowan, a 91-year-old hero from the silent generation whose resilience during the toughest of times offers us lessons in perseverance. Mom takes us through her life journey, illustrating how the greatest generation weathered the storms of the Depression and World Wars with a stoic determination that often left emotions unexpressed yet carved a path of silent strength and wisdom for future generations.
Our conversation unfolds further into the complexities of childhood separation and the coping strategies that emerge from such experiences. Through intimate personal stories, we explore the emotional challenges of growing up in a large family, experiencing separation, and how these molded a life dedicated to helping others facing similar adversities. These narratives remind us of the crucial role empathy and understanding play in overcoming emotional suppression, helping us connect with those around us on a deeper level. Together, we uncover the resilience required to navigate life's changes and the transformative power of support, communication, and love.
Finally, we delve into the journey of healing past trauma through faith, communication, and the conscious choice to build bridges over walls. Mom McGowan's insights, coupled with personal anecdotes, highlight the impact of love, faith, and openness in breaking generational patterns of emotional repression. This episode serves as a testament to the enduring power of love and faith, offering hope and understanding for those navigating their challenges. Join us for an inspiring exploration of enduring lessons passed down through generations and the profound impact they have on our lives today.
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Speaker 2 (00:05):
And all my life, you have been faith.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
And all my life you have been so.
So, hey everybody, and welcomeback to the Wednesdays with
Watson podcast.
If you don't know by now, myname is Amy Watson and I am your
host.
We are in our seventh season sohard to believe.
And today begins a journeythrough the generations that I
(00:33):
wanted to do.
I wanted us to evaluate in thisseason, trauma and you, how
each generation experiencedtrauma and how that probably was
passed down to the generationbeneath them.
And so today a very specialepisode, certainly a special
episode for me we will drop intothis conversation with Mama
(00:54):
Gallen, who is 91 years old, andfor those of you who don't know
who Mama Gallen is, she and herhusband, dad McGowan, started
the children's home that I grewup in and, quite frankly, saved
my life.
Today we talked to mom abouthow not only she experienced
trauma and how she had to learnhow to change, based on some
generational things that shelearned from the greatest
(01:16):
generation, as mom is part ofthe silent generation, and so I
hope that you will gain todayfrom this conversation, because
there's so much that is said inbetween the lines and this
interview with this 91-year-oldhuman being one of the best on
planet Earth, but she tells ushow she got from pushing things
down to actively sharing thingsin family and in community.
(01:41):
And so let's drop into thisconversation with Mama Gowan.
One of the greatest honors ofmy life is this interview with
her.
Okay, so my first question toyou is so you are part of the
(02:03):
silent generation?
What year were you born?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
1933 1933.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
That was a long time ago, guys years ago almost.
I mean like 91 year, 91 and ahalf years ago, so you are 91
years old, right and guys, whenI tell you that she is
remarkable, she texts me thingsthat I can't even figure out how
to text, and so, um, but thankyou for being here, mom.
(02:32):
I've been, I've been tellingeverybody that we were going to
do this forever and, um, wereally want to get your
perspective because you have somuch wisdom, and so thank you
for doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know that I I got my training at the children's
home doing this stuff, gettingbehind microphones and talking,
and so it's kind of a fullcircle moment, so we're just
going to jump right into it.
So your caretakers and we'regoing to get to that in a few
minutes about your story, butyour caretakers were part of the
greatest generation, theDepression era, yeah, so tell us
(03:07):
what you remember about theadults in your life,
particularly the Depression orin general, in general, or
whatever you want to sharereally.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, the adults in our life were very much.
You respected them and youwould never question anything.
They told you and you just hadtotal confidence in their wisdom
.
And it was a hard time becauseit was getting toward the end of
depression when I was born.
(03:36):
But they went through a reallyrough time.
There just wasn't food and butI was fortunate and well, I
don't remember it because I wasat the tail end of depression,
but I've heard them talk aboutit and how they had to manage
food and and what, how they didand it was amazing.
They, they, the old, sayingthat they say now it is what it
(04:01):
is.
They took that and they neversaid that is what it is.
They lived it that and theynever said that it is what it is
.
They lived it and that's howthey got through it.
They didn't question.
They just it is what it is.
We would say.
And my aunt would say whateveryou have to do, God will give
you the strength to do it.
So that's why I grew up underthat.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I love that because they call them the greatest
generation because they did gothrough so much.
They went, like you said wentthrough the Depression, the
First World War and then latersome of them fought in the
Second World War.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Most of them of my age.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Well, I was born during that Right you're kind of
in between, yeah, in between,so I can remember a little of
both.
Yeah, I love that.
You know.
Unfortunately, like I couldn'tfind somebody from the greatest
generation to come on to thepodcast because they'd be not.
Dad would have been part of thegreatest generation because he
was enough years older than youthat, yeah, so he was five years
(04:56):
older than you, so dad couldhave come on from the greatest
generation.
He's who I remember.
When I hear people talk aboutthe greatest generation, I think
of dad because, like, he livedthis whole life being in the
military he was military, policeand all of that before he came
to the children's home, and so Ican see why they call them the
greatest generation, becausethey just had this umph about
(05:19):
them that I don't know that mygeneration or the ones behind me
have today, like, just this,put your head down and do it,
and there's some not so greatthings about that philosophy,
but yeah, just really hardworkers, and so when I think of
the greatest generation, I thinkof dad for sure.
How do you remember the adultsin your life dealing with hard
(05:42):
things and you just kind ofalluded to it a few minutes ago
but how would they deal withthings like death and hard
things?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, let me say this they didn't share their
feelings at all.
Now, they may when they gotbehind closed doors, but they
didn't share things and theydidn't go in detail.
So when something happened,they just went ahead and did
what they needed to do.
During World War two.
I was eight years old when thethe war started at Pearl Harbor.
(06:16):
I couldn't remember hearing itover the radio, but I didn't
understand it.
Of course I was seven or eightyears old, but I did find out.
The rationing started.
The gas was rationed, the eggsand milk and butter, and the
ladies had to give up theirhosiery, their nylon hose and
(06:39):
just so many things that youdidn't have.
You know, you just made do andyou didn't have the real butter.
Anything you had is probablygeneric, as we would say today,
but they, it was all rationedand you were.
Then they gave it.
You had a booklet, they gaveout rationing stamps, and so
they gave the rationing books tohow many was in the family?
(07:02):
So?
So that's how they was able tosay, okay, now this family gets
da-da-da, and the next familymaybe not so much.
So I remember those rationingbooks, seeing them, and they had
them, and then when they went,but once they spent all that
book they couldn't get any moreuntil the next time they gave
them out.
So they really took care andwere very careful with that
(07:25):
rationing book to try to stretchit to make it worse.
It's just I'll have to.
This is funny.
Butter was rationed well.
I had an uncle, though, and hewas a butter love butter, and so
of course he couldn't getbutter.
So they had this thing thatthey had.
I forget the name of it was.
It was a white glob, is the wayI looked at it, and you put
(07:48):
yellow coloring in it.
And then my aunt had one ofthose molds, the old-timey molds
that you make a mold of butter.
She'd put that in there and putit on the table, and he ate
that every single time.
He never knew.
Never even noticed thedifference one time I, after he
was elderly, I had to share withhim you like that, didn't you,
(08:11):
uncle luther?
And he'd say wasn't mad.
I said I hate to tell you and II shouldn't have told him, I
just had to see his reaction.
He went.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
That's not true yeah, that that is fantastic and so,
yeah, so, so you remember, and II've always wondered, because
of the rationing, like you know,I think of teenage boys and I
know that you you had brothers,but they but there's so much of
an age difference, but I thinkhow in the world did they feed
(08:40):
the teenage boys?
Like it was rationing, you know?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
well, a lot of people back then too lived on farms
and they were able to.
That's how they supplied theirfood, and then, if they had any
at all left over, they couldgive it to somebody else or sell
it or whatever wow, that's thatI just can't and I don't know
that anybody in this part of whywe're doing this podcast?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
because we want people of today.
My generation, I'm gen x, yourgrandkids generation, they're
millennials and the great grandand great grandchildren that are
gen gen z and then so, like inyour family alone, you have like
five generations, and so Ithink that we can learn from you
and and there's not very many91-year-olds that I can bring my
(09:26):
podcast stuff to and youactually be able to have a
conversation with me, and so I'mso grateful that you're doing
this for us today.
You mentioned to me that theadults in your life did not talk
about the hard things.
Your generation is called thesilent generation for the same
(09:47):
reason.
Yes, did you just learn that byby what you watched?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
well, you watched your adults and that was, that
was a normal day for you.
If they didn't talk aboutwhatever was bothering them, I
don't know if they just didn'twant to maybe burden a child, or
they were just very, as you say, very silent.
They didn't come out with her.
Now, I don't know what happenedwhen they had closed doors with
the husband and the wife I'msure they talked about stuff
(10:13):
then, but no, you just didwhatever you were told.
I would never in my lifetime asa little girl ever say why.
You just knew whatever theysaid, they meant it and you did
it.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, you taught us that and that's a good thing to
learn.
So, during that time and I'mwriting my dissertation on some
of this stuff and so learningthe history of how we treat
psychiatric illnesses becausethey existed then, right, yes,
they did, and what people did,and I don know if, if you have a
(10:45):
memory of this, but they sentthose people away yes, they did
do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
you don't remember that no, not till, I was older
got you and so as you.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
So you just kind of went through your life and hard
things happened, and so tell usabout, like, who raised you?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
well, you want me to start while.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I was there, okay, yeah, let me go back to that,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You didn't pay any attention to it, because that's
the everyday living.
You live with people thatdidn't talk about all this, so I
wouldn't hear about it.
We would just say, oh, okay,that's whatever it might be, but
no, they did not share.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Let me ask you, before you answer, who raised
you?
Do you remember struggling withanything as a child or as a
teenager, and then because Ilearned this from you pressing
things down?
Do you have any memories ofthat?
Well, I have to tell you what?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
what started the memories?
Well, when I was you want me totell that when I was three
years old, my mother passed away.
There were 11 children in ourfamily and I was the last one.
I was number 11 and, uh, aftershe was buried, my sister, who
was three years older than me.
They gave her to an aunt anduncle that lived in another town
(12:02):
.
With no explanation, she didn'tknow where she was going, she
just got in this car and theywent.
Well, I was supposed to go tothe other aunt and uncle because
I was three.
Well, my older sister took careof me.
She was like my mother, shebegged and she begged.
Please don't send her away.
(12:23):
Well, he, my dad, let me stay ayear longer.
But then, when I was four, Ihad to go to the aunt and uncles
.
Back then, you didn't even knowwhere you were going.
They came and got me and put mein a car, and I don't think I'd
ever been in a car.
Oh, I thought that was theneatest thing.
They let me sit in the frontseat and I thought, oh my.
(12:46):
And we stopped at an uncle whohad a store, a grocery store,
and they lived upstairs.
We went upstairs and my aunthad prepared lunch and I
remember, even while I ate thebest green beans I'd ever eaten,
they had green beans.
Well, they had more too, butthat's what I remember.
Then we went to the road overthe mountain to where I was
(13:09):
going to live.
So I didn't know anything, Ididn't know where we were going
and I didn't even ask, I justlooked at everything.
So we got there, we went up thesteps and we went in the front
door and I happened to see thatmy other aunt had a little box
and it had.
What little few clothes I hadwas in that box.
(13:31):
And when she set that box down,I knew, I knew I'd never go
back home because my clotheswere sitting right there and I
don't.
I remember the one thing thatnight they had my sister stay
with me.
So maybe, be comfort to me, Icried all night long.
(13:52):
I remember that's plain as day.
But I didn't cry for my mother,I cried for my sister, ruth
that took care of me all thetime.
And my aunt, oh, she had abeautiful doll.
She gave it to me and I threwit down.
It broke to smithereens and Ibet she thought I don't know
what I'm getting into with thischild.
That wasn't what I wanted.
I want my family, my brothersand sisters, and here I am in a
(14:16):
strange place.
I don't want to stay in thisplace.
But, needless to say, after thenext morning my sister had to go
to school.
So I sat out on the front porchby myself and my other aunt's
car drove up and Betty and mysister got in that car going to
school, and I watched it pullout and it was like the end of
(14:39):
the world.
I could tell you right now howI felt inside.
It was the most lonely, hurtingI can't even describe it of how
I felt.
But guess what?
I didn't cry anymore like that.
Very quickly, at four years old, I knew okay, I guess I'm going
(14:59):
to have to live in this house.
And the people were great.
You know it wasn't them, but itwasn't my family.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
It just wasn't your family, that's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
So anyway, that's how .
Speaker 1 (15:09):
I handled it.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I just went in and did whatever.
I was told they were very goodto me.
I don't want anybody to thinkthey weren't, but they weren't
my home and they weren't with myfamily.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
But, I said okay to myself, I just went ahead and
did whatever they told me to do,and so you have done very well.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I pushed down all my feelings.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You pushed down all your feelings.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Well, they don't go away.
I'll say this, and I don't meanto interrupt you, but you know,
god works in mysterious ways andit says the things that have
happened to us is for thefurtherance of the gospel.
And so what happened to me?
As a child, I used to beingable to help children at the
(15:53):
children's home, but you know,know what?
I kept that same feeling andfinally I thanked the Lord for
it because I really knew whatthey felt like when they came in
there.
So God's hand was even insomething that wasn't, I thought
at the time, good.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, and I remember when I first got to the
children's home and I've toldthe story on this podcast about
how I first met you I was hidingin a little alcove and I
remember you just kind of pokingyour head in there.
But I knew in that moment thatyou understood, because my mom
had given me away, not at fouryears old, but my mom had given
(16:29):
me away.
But I definitely emulated how Isaw you deal with things and I
so I have a propensity to pushthings down and pretend that
they don't exist not, and Ithink that that served us both
well.
Right like we, you and I bothsurvived well into it.
I mean, you're 91 and I'm I'llbe 53 in a couple days, and so
(16:52):
we we did all right.
But have you seen any times inyour adult life when you've kind
of had to go back and and dealwith some things and and not
push things down?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
probably it was at the children.
Someone would get new childrenand I could see they were.
You know they did it too and Ithought you know this is not a
good thing to do, but I stilldid it and I'll tell you later
on how I came out of it go aheadand tell us now well, I married
the most wonderful man in theworld.
Yes, I was 16 years old and hewas 21 and we, the night of the
(17:28):
senior prom, we went to getmarried.
But anyway, this wonderful manthat I married, he taught
Because if we'd have adiscussion about something, and
maybe I didn't, we didn't argue.
But maybe I would like to havesaid something, I didn't say it.
So he taught me we wouldn't getup from the table until I
(17:48):
expressed my feelings Very hardfor me to do, but gradually he
really helped me.
Okay me, okay.
You know he wouldn't let me notdo it so.
I give the credit to him.
That helped me to realize thatyou can talk about things, and
maybe you don't want to, but youshould, so, yeah, he was my
(18:10):
mentor when it came to that andhow cool is that?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
you know dad, dad mc McGowan and plenty of children's
home people will be listeningto this podcast, but Dad McGowan
would cry at the drop of a hatand I remember you and I looking
at him like, oh no, there's Dadcrying again and we never did,
that's right.
Now I'm different.
Now I'll cry now, but that'sbecause I had to deal with some
(18:34):
of that stuff that I pushed downand I am glad that I learned to
to cope later because it wasjust too much right, like that
four year old memory that youhave, I have at 15 or 14 and
it's the same right and it'sjust, it's just too much.
And so I'm not at alladvocating that people not deal
(18:58):
with their trauma and notdealing with things like being
abandoned, but I am advocatingthat if people that are
listening to this podcast knowpeople like us, they need to be
the dad my gallon and comealongside and say, no, look,
we're going to talk about this.
Be the dad my gallon and comealongside and say, no, look,
we're going to talk about this.
(19:19):
I'm here, I'm a safe place foryou to talk to me, and so that's
what I want listeners to takeaway from.
This is like you and I used therepression of those those, those
bad things as a copingmechanism because we just went
on and you know, you got marriedto dad and you guys had a full
life.
You have two beautiful girlsand grandchildren and
(19:40):
great-grandchildren, and I justthink it's so cool that dad
McGowan, part of the greatestgeneration, probably also taught
not to talk about his feelings,had the wisdom that could have
only come from the Lord to sayno, this is not how we are going
to operate.
And so at the children's homeit was a little bit like we had
mom, who, kind of you, had astoic face and just kind of
(20:03):
always moved forward and youknow all other things, and then
we had dad and it was just thisgreat balance for us to look at
and be like.
There are times when it's justtoo much and you can't talk
about it, you might not even beable to deal with it, but then
there was Dad on the other side.
Right, definitely, yeah, so hewas definitely a gift.
(20:24):
I did not know that you guys gotmarried on your senior prom
night that's fantastic or on hissenior prom night, I'm guessing
, no, it was mine, oh, yours.
Okay, so you guys get married.
Okay, so you guys get married.
Dad's in the army.
You know you have children, oneof whom was born when dad was
still in Korea.
Dad came back and you guysestablished your life.
(20:45):
How did your upbringinginfluence the way you raised
your kids?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I have to think about that a minute.
It taught me the three wordsthat you whoever's listening and
do it if you just say I loveyou, and then hard times, I'm
telling you this because I loveyou.
Yeah, of course, as theyprobably thought.
No, it stuck with me and tothis day, if I talk to either
(21:17):
one of them on the phone, wealways end it with I love you,
and that breaks a lot ofbarriers down.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah it really does, and you shouldn't be able to do
that with your upbringing.
For those of us that are superspecial, we get.
Has anyone told you today, likeI, probably once a week get
that text from you.
Has anyone told you today, likeI, probably once a week get at
that text from you?
Has anyone told you today, andthat's, and that I know what
that means?
It means?
Has anyone told you that youlook, that they love you and
that was life-changing for meand so it.
(21:47):
So I'm so grateful that dad camealong and said hey, we're not
going to stuff, or you knowwe're gonna, as things can't
come up, because things wouldhave come up right, like you
would have had a fear of himleaving, for example, because
you had been abandoned, and sofor dad to sit and be, set that
steady hand for you, I think itchanged the story, because the
(22:09):
story so often with people ofyour generation is they raised
baby boomers and of course, thebaby boomers went and rebelled
and did all kinds of things thatwas never even thought of in
your generation.
Um, but you, but dad, kind ofbroke that.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
We don't talk about it well, let me tell you what he
would say.
And they'd say why did you getmarried and her so young?
He said I wanted to raise herthe way I wanted her to be.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
And he did a good job in doing that, and so I love
that for those of you peoplelistening if you were part of,
or if you have parents, mostpeople, a lot of people
listening, will have parentsthat are of your generation and
I think that you did the bestyou could with hardly anything
right.
Like you raised your own twogirls and then you raised all of
(22:57):
us having not really beenraised.
You did not have a mother'spresence in your life, and how
remarkable that is and that canonly be the hand of the Lord.
Like you have that strongmemory at four years old and yet
thousands of children in thisworld are better off because you
(23:18):
understood what it was likewhen they came in.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You know well, that's why I settled with being given
away and not be bitter as I was,you know, adult and all.
I did think about that and Ithank the lord that he let me be
in a bad situation.
All things work for good, butit doesn't say all things are
good can you say that again?
Well, because the bible saysall things are good to him.
(23:44):
That love the lord.
It doesn't say they are good.
They all things aren't good,but they are work for here.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
The good of you, right and that's that is so huge
.
Huge, because people like toquote that verse a lot.
All things work together forgood to them that love God and
are called according to.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
His service.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
But it doesn't say all things are good and I think
that's a real sticking point aswe talk about on this podcast
lots of people dealing with hardthings is probably the reason
why that verse in Philippiansthat you quoted a few minutes
ago is my life versus, becauseyou probably beat it into me.
But that verse says Paul says Iwant you to know that the
things have happened to me havereally happened to further the
(24:27):
gospel, and that was true withme, because I'm living proof of
that the first time we went intothe ministry in Georgia, this
little three-year-old girl wasleft.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Her mother had left her, and she just cried and
cried and it was getting darkand I knew the stars would be
coming out.
So I said, hey, you want to gowith me outside and we'll look
at the stars?
And she just cried and cried.
I said, let's go look.
Well she, let me take her bythe hand.
And we walked down this walkwayand her name was Kathy and I
(25:00):
said, kathy, you know what, whenI was a little girl your age,
just like you, my mother went toheaven too.
I said see those stars up there.
I said they're up there inheaven and I know it's very sad
for you.
And she looked up at me withher big old eyes and she said
(25:21):
your mother died too.
And I said, yes, yes, she didhoney.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
And then I said some more things to her, but she
bonded with me immediatelybecause she said she really, oh,
okay so and I know I have, I Ibonded with you immediately for
that reason and one of thequestions I had written down to
ask you and we really alreadykind of talked about it was that
how did that experienceinfluence your experience at the
(25:47):
children's home?
And you know, I think that youjust knew and you understood.
Well, that's why it happened tome.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
And you know, as I was an adult and then went into
the children's home ministry, Ithanked the Lord for what I went
through, but I hadn't thankedhim for that.
I hadn't figured it out untilthen.
Right, I got a slow learner.
But then, when I went in there,I thought you know what the
things that were meant badturned out to be good?
Oh man, like Joseph, you knowwhat the things that were meant
(26:17):
bad turned out to be good.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Like joseph, you know when he would they got rid of
him, and then they had thephantom and he gave him food and
so things.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
The lord uses all these things.
At the time you, you're hurt,you don't want to be that way.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And then, as time goes on, then you, eventually,
you figure it out and I thinkthat the difference between
overcoming difficult things likethat and not overcoming
difficult things like that isthat that attitude of this
(26:52):
happened.
God doesn't say it is good, buthe said he'll work it for my
good and I think justsurrendering to him like this is
a really horror.
I mean to hear you tell thatstory 86 years later, that vivid
memory of that four-year-old,five-year-old little girl.
Clearly it still imprints onyour heart.
(27:13):
But I think the difference whenwe have stories like yours and
we have stories like mine isthat decision to not let it
define us right, exactly, andthat takes a while it just
doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It just comes little by little and as you mature in
the Lord too.
Of course that's a big thing.
But yes, you realize.
Okay, okay, god, thank you forthat.
And when you can get to theplace where you have the bad
things that's happened to you,but they're in the past, you can
honestly go to the Lord and saythank you, jesus, for allowing
(27:51):
this to happen.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, I believe that with my whole heart.
That's what you taught me and Ithink that was a difference
maker for me.
It was, yeah, my situation wasbad, your situation was bad, but
that we don't have to be notonly defined by it, but we could
be and this is going to sound alittle cliche and I don't mean
it to but we can be refined byit and it definitely, looking at
(28:15):
it through the lens of, I mightnot ever understand why this
happened on this side of heaven,with the exception of things
like you can see, you had achildren's home ministry.
I can see I have this podcastministry and what I'm doing for
work and things like that.
I can see God's hand in it.
But that doesn't necessarilytake away the pain and I just
(28:39):
remember you teaching me Amyyou've got to take that to Jesus
.
Like I got chills because Iremember you and I have a very
fond memory of sitting on thesebig steps.
I remember the church wasColonial Heights Baptist Church
in Colonial Heights, virginia.
I looked it up because I wantedto try to see if I can get a
picture of that steps and Icould not find it.
(29:00):
But that was the day that yourtrauma and your pain helped me
heal from mine, because I hadnot told anybody some of those
things and my generation is alittle bit different.
We're not quite as tough asyour generation and so you guys
can put your head down and nottalk about the things that
(29:21):
happened to you.
And it was a different time.
Right, it was a much differenttime Because by the time I came
along along, we weren't worriedabout wars.
You've lived through World WarII, korea, vietnam, all the
conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia.
You've lived through the GulfWars.
We're getting on two hands whenwe talk about the stuff that
(29:45):
you've seen in your lifetime.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
You're talking about wars, world War II, I had a
brother, his name was James Well, he was in Manila when the
Pearl Harbor happened and henever came home after that.
He had just joined up.
Anyway, to make a story short,he fought and he was in the
Bataan Death March which was Idon't even remember how long,
(30:07):
but it was very, very long putinto prisoner of war camp and I
won't go into all of that, butthat's where he passed away.
Oh, my goodness, I don't knowthat.
I'm visiting.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
He was 25 years old.
And how old were you when?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
he died.
Well, let's say, world War II,I was probably nine, okay,
because the Red Cross sent to usa certain kind of paper.
It was thin and that's what youcould write to your brother or
whoever on.
That very, very thin paper iswhat they used and it was very
(30:40):
short, because I can rememberthat my aunt sat me down at the
table and she said now here issome paper and I told you, james
is a prisoner of war, which Idon't know if I really got all
that she said, but you're towrite him and they will give him
the letters.
So she got all the family.
He never got them, he diedbefore they did.
(31:02):
But I can remember that veryvividly.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Do you remember how the adults responded to that
knock on the door, saying Jamesis gone?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I wasn't there because they went to my dad.
See, I didn't live with my dadso he got it.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I got it from my aunt that they told, and I want to
step back to your dad for just asecond.
How old were you when he died?
Do you remember?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
no, I really don't okay.
He probably in my 30s.
Oh wow, okay I thought no,maybe even I don't know, I'm
trying to remember but you weremarried to dad.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Pardon me, you were married to dad oh yes, I had
children, wow.
So did you have anycommunication with him or any
relationship with him at allafter you got to be an adult?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
not really.
If I went to went to see him,we'd just chit-chat, that was it
.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
No.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I never had a conversation with him.
Do you wish that you had?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I don't know, maybe, maybe, but I just accepted that
too Right, and this is the pointof this series that I'm doing
with the podcast is how everygeneration is different, and so
you just kind of moved on.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I did not have any respect for him and I never felt
like he was quote my dad.
He might have been my father,but I never looked at him as a
dad.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
So a lot of people that have issues like their dad
abandoned them struggle with arelationship with god.
Was that ever?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
understanding.
No, I didn't have that and Ididn't have hatred.
I guess I learned from my auntand uncle.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I just accepted okay, the lord took him home and this
is what your generation does,and did you accept, like you
said, and I think that do.
I think that that thatgeneration later needed to
figure out how topsychologically handle things
differently and better, I'm sure, because you can always learn.
(32:58):
You can always learn absolutely, but at the same time, what?
What a generation?
It is your generation, rightand and and so you guys, you
know, just have this tenacityabout you that I'm grateful that
you taught me, but mygeneration doesn't have it
(33:18):
normally, and so I remember youjust teaching us, and me in
particular, and those steps thatwe talked about.
I remember you saying somethingto me and this has always stuck
with me and I've heard it otherplaces.
But I remember you saying to meAmy, you said it two ways.
You said, amy, you can let thethings that have happened to you
make you bitter or you can letit make you better.
(33:39):
So you even know.
I remember and and you made itbetter.
But because, like you, justdidn't give up on me.
You know, know, you understand,and I think that, to your point
of all things working togetherfor good, your dad leaving you
was not good, but the thousands.
(33:59):
I think by the time you and dadleft the children's home, there
were four or five thousandchildren that had come through
those three homes.
I happen to be one of them.
I happen to be one of them andI am so grateful for that,
because your pain absolutelyturned into a ministry to us and
to me.
And I also remember you sayingabout bitterness.
You said, amy, because when Igot to the children's home, it
(34:20):
didn't that, this stuff didn'tstop, the pain didn't stop.
My mom was still, you know,doing what she did and and I
remember you teach it telling meevery time something like that
happens, think of it as a brickand you can either build a
bridge with that or you canbuild a wall with that.
And I just remember you lookingat me saying please don't build
a wall.
And I never was able to makethings right with my mom just
(34:44):
because of those circumstancesbeen well covered on this
podcast, but I remember justthinking that's the way I want
to be with these things that arepainful, and I didn't want to
be bitter.
I didn't want to be bitter andthere and there's so many people
are, and I believe that I wouldhave been one of those people
had you not invested in my lifeand said when bitterness is not
(35:07):
going to make it better, youknow and that's a choice,
because I had a sister that wasthe other one that was getting
right and she never got past.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I mean, she just didn't get past it yeah, and,
and, and she was a wonderfullady.
Now she went to your other auntand uncle, right?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
so I don't know.
That's very interesting was wasit pretty good for her with her
, with your other aunt and uncle, as far as she was?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
made different than me.
She was very quiet where Iguess I wasn't.
And, yes, well, after she wasover there then the uncle that
had her passed away, so it wasreally the aunt that really
raised her no, she she was fine,I mean, you would never have
known it.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Right, because she Pushed it down.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
But it always stayed with her.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I'm really glad you said that because that helps us,
it helps the listenersunderstand.
So you did eventually talkabout the things to Dad and so
if she didn't, and if she justkind of never talked about it
and never dealt with it, thenyou can see why that would, why
there's the and and, honestly,you know, my sister there is not
, and I don't have a problemsaying it on this podcast,
(36:18):
because she is who she is andshe's done what she's done and
she's made the decisions thatshe's made.
But we could not be anydifferent if we tried, and I I
firmly believe it's because notonly you but dad and house
parents at the children's homeand later, when I went to
Clearwater Christian College,people just kept pounding into
(36:40):
me that I could not let thoseexperiences make me bitter, and
I'm grateful for that becauseI'm not bitter.
Even to this day I'm not bitter, and I'm grateful for that
because I'm not bitter.
Even to this day I'm not bitter.
I have my issues.
I have my issues, butbitterness is not one of them.
Okay, mom, so as we get towardsthe end and I definitely want to
(37:00):
give the microphone to you atthe very end, but I did want to
ask you a question because thisopportunity is gold for me to
have.
I will always remember thisnight, the night before
Thanksgiving, when you and I satdown in your house and we
talked about this and I'll havethis on audio forever.
But I, I, I'm jealous of peoplethat didn't have you in their
life.
(37:20):
Some of my friends have perfectfamilies not perfect families,
but they grew up in two parenthomes but they don't have this,
you ask about and this is just avery small thing of how you
deal with things.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
When I went to live with my last name, miss Snyder
well, the uncles were Snyder, soI didn't have to have a
different name, but they wereolder and they had not had
children, although they lovedthem and had other kids just
come and stay and all.
But this is so funny.
It was cold.
Well, I had to wear those longsocks that you turn down at the
(37:57):
knee and I looked at all thegirls that was going to school
with me and they had theirs downto their ankles and I thought
I'm not wearing these socks likethat.
So I went in the bathroom and Irolled them all the way down,
make them look like the sockswere down there, and then,
before I got home, I rolled themback up.
I mean that's just something ofa kid.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
But it was important to me at the time.
I didn't want to be different.
Well, I already felt somedifference, because they all
have mothers and fathers and allthat you know, but I can
remember the sock issue.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
That's hilarious and what I think is really funny
about that, michelle will listento this podcast.
So remember when, michelle, shewas like 12 years old and she
was still and you had to be 13to wear the, to wear hose yes
and and so Michelle had to wearthose socks that you're talking
about, where you pull all theway up to your knees.
So she's going to really laughat the fact that you went to
school and pushed yours down.
(38:54):
But I think you just bring.
A good point is that, eventhough your mom gave you away
and you were living with youraunt and uncle, you were still a
normal child.
But I didn't feel normal.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
But you didn't feel normal, normal that you didn't
feel, not that that's at thattime.
No, I didn't.
I wanted to be, wanted to belike the others.
Well, you know, that can begood or bad, right right, right,
and I had great friends and allbut that.
That was a vivid thing in mylife.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
How did you come to know the lord well?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
we.
I went to sunday school inchurch every sunday from the
time I.
I did when I was home, but myaunt and uncle sent me they
didn't go, but I did and Iremember very clearly.
My sister said you're 12 yearsold now, you need to quote join
the church.
So I did Not.
A Bible was open.
(39:42):
This was a big church, southernBaptist Church, and they knew
how to say it.
I never read a Bible verse.
They just filled out what'syour address, what's your phone,
church, and they knew how tosay it.
I never read a Bible verse.
They just filled out what'syour address, what's your phone
number and all that stuff, butthey never asked anything.
They didn't have the Bible.
So what happened to me?
I thought, well, if I died I'dgo to heaven, because I did all
this stuff at 12 years old.
Well, certainly that's not true, but I thought it was so.
(40:06):
Anyway, after we were marriedand all, and we had children and
we moved to Indiana, we went tothe First Baptist Church of
Covington, Indiana, had awonderful pastor.
Well, he preached the gospelvery plainly, what you do, how
you get saved, and, da-da-da,Well, I had never done that.
So that just bugged me andbugged me and I didn't do it.
Then I reverted back.
(40:27):
I'd like to talk about this,but I don't think I will, I'll
just have to listen.
So, anyway, then it hit me andI can remember very plain my
husband was at work and thegirls were in school and I had a
green chair with the big armsand I knelt by that green chair
and I asked the Lord to comeinto my heart and save me.
(40:47):
And that's how I got saved, bymyself.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
By yourself.
You led yourself to the Lord.
No.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
But I didn't get baptized right away.
And then we had to move.
Well, the Lord called us atGeorgia in the ministry, and my
brother-in-law had the church.
And then it started botheringme because I had been baptized,
but it was on the wrong side ofsalvation.
So I thought I better getbaptized.
So I went forward that day andhe said what are you coming for?
And I said I need to bebaptized.
(41:14):
And so, anyway, he baptized me.
So I've I said okay, now I canmeet the Lord and meet the Lord.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
You did I.
I mean, wow, that's somind-blowing to me.
Um, because you made thatdecision, so many lives were
changed a long time ago, a verylong time ago, but, but it just,
it speaks to the perseveranceof the gospel.
It does right like that was along time ago and we're sitting
(41:42):
across from each other with youknow, 38 years in between us.
I only know that because youwere were, you were born the
exact same year.
My own mom was born, my, my, mymother, you are my mom, my
mother was born and, and so 38years later, you know, a kid is
born, uh, in Jacksonville,florida, that one day is going
to come under your ministry, andum had a very similar situation
(42:06):
, similar Um.
I'm not even sure I've ever evensaid how I got saved on on the
podcast, but but I, as you know,was a good kid and came from
from a church in Jacksonvillewhere I was very active in the
youth group and I knew all thescriptures and everything, and
in those days they just scaredus to death, half to death, and
so I remember going to sleepevery night.
Lord, if I'm not saved, save me.
(42:27):
But I have a very distinctmemory of us being in Hartsville
, south Carolina, on tour atJohn Wesley United Methodist
Church and you always had mestand up on the front row with
the little girls and I remembercalling somebody to come up and
going down and kneeling down andyou came to pray with me and
(42:50):
you asked me and I said, mom, Ithink I need to be saved.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
And everybody was shocked because I was like,
because you were the good girl,I was the good kid.
The good girls don't make thedifference.
Jesus Christ is the difference.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
That's right, and I do think that after that I was
able to, because then that wasthat same summer, we went to a
camp meeting where I cannotremember the pastor's name in
Pennsylvania, lancaster,pennsylvania.
I can see him in my head.
He fell in the shower, butanyway, he preached a sermon on
bitterness, and between you andhim I decided you know that I
(43:21):
would not let these thingsdestroy me.
And so I just think it's sointeresting that someone of your
generation, who you'reliterally called the silent
generation, because you learnfrom the greatest generation, we
just don't talk about thesethings.
It is what it is like, what yousaid, but yet, uh, dad mcgowan
comes along and says no, um, I'm, I, we're married and I'm your
(43:44):
husband and we're not getting upfrom this table until you talk.
And so that's the takeaway Ithink from my perspective in
this conversation is Well, onething I wanted to say too.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
You asked me about raising my girls and all.
There's one thing Always say,whatever the situation is, first
, no matter if you have tocorrect them or whatever it is.
First just say I love you andthen go into, you know, maybe
the correction or what youneeded to do.
I never heard the word I loveyou till I met my husband, you
(44:20):
met dad and that, and I thought,did he say that you know?
But no, there again.
I guess they just didn't say itand I knew my aunt and uncle
loved each other, just by theway they.
I surprised that they, but Inever heard any affectionate
word, particularly, but I knewthey did.
So you know.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
And I'm glad you brought that up, because that is
part of the, I was going to say, the issue with your generation
.
I don't mean that.
I know what you mean, but butit defines like you were just,
you just knew.
That's that they loved you,right well, I'll have to enter.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I'll say this one thing I guess that made me it.
I couldn't figure it out.
And then again I thought Iguess they really love each
other.
They didn't call each other bytheir names.
She called him old man and hecalled her old women a woman.
But it was a sweet.
I mean, what are you a woman?
I?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
mean, it was a sweet time.
It wasn't a beautiful woman, itwas so sweet.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
That's what they called each other, and I thought
that was so strange.
I just never heard anybody saythat to each other, but it was a
show of their love.
That's just the way they did it.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
It's just remarkable.
It's remarkable that, with avivid memory of being given away
that young, that you just movedon through life and that you
hadn't heard anybody say youloved, now I was thinking I
don't remember, with theexception of maybe my aunt and
uncle being told that they lovedme until I came to the
(45:43):
children's home.
And so I think that lovechanges so many things it does
absolutely.
You know it can cover a lot ofhurt and a lot of wrongs, and I
think that's what happened foryou and for me.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
And I like that short verse God is love.
Yeah exactly, and that's thegreatest love we can have is
God's love.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And he is not silent right?
Speaker 2 (46:08):
No, he is not.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
And so, while I'm talking to someone who was
basically brought up to not talkabout things and later learn to
talk about things, it's just,it's remarkable to me that the
Lord is just so faithful in allof these things, and so go ahead
.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
One thing that I heard our pastor say here one
time.
He was preaching a sermon andhe said when God is silent, it
doesn't mean he's still.
He's still working behind thescenes, and that helped me a lot
, Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
When God is silent, it doesn't mean that he's not
working, and oftentimes probablymeans that he is.
You know, and and so I.
Just, this whole episode speaksto the difference that jesus
can make absolutely and thelives.
I mean, we're sitting here onthe wednesday night before
thanksgiving two, two peoplethat were given away by the
person that well, your momdidn't give you away, but given
(47:04):
away by a parent and, um, ourlives are drastically different
because of the completed work ofjesus on the cross well, I
never would have made it if Ihadn't had jesus right and that
might lead into your answer forthe.
For the final question is youare 91 years old.
This, this will this podcastwill be listened to, you know,
(47:26):
and as long as I decide to leaveit up, which will probably be
forever, what advice would yougive to those younger than you
as it pertains to these hardthings and how we deal with them
now?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
First of all, you have to realize it's okay that
you think that, but you don'twant to stay that.
And I think the most thing, ofcourse, when you get saved and
you ask Jesus to come into yourheart and then whenever an issue
comes up, he's right therebeside us.
But we just have to rememberthat he's there.
And we all face hard things,even though we're saved.
(48:00):
That doesn't save us from hardliving and hard things that
happen.
But I can tell you right nowevery time I've had to face
something like that, I haveknown I have felt that Jesus was
by my side.
So you have to communicate withhim.
You can't wait until just.
Oh, I need you, jesus.
I mean you just on a daily basis.
(48:21):
I know everyone's so busy, butjust take time.
For me it's of a morning, butit might not be for whoever.
But take time and just talk tojesus, read the scripture and
then, if you have questionsabout what you just read, ask
him and the holy spirit willreveal that, what it means to
(48:42):
you personally and that is mylife thing that has carried me
through 91.
You've done that 91, but in 91.
But, it, just it works.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Well, and you found something, and people on the
podcast have heard me say whatDad taught us.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Oh, I've told it to.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
When I walked in the door you showed me where Dad had
written On that yellow piece ofpaper.
On that yellow piece of paperstay in church, stay in the word
and stay on your knees.
I have one more question foryou.
So, mom, thank you First of allfor being here today and I
think that, uh, what you've said, and I will that that, that
(49:21):
line that you said he didn't sayit is good, but it doesn't mean
it is good, but it will allwork together for good.
I think it's so powerful.
So, thank you for being heretoday.
You're very welcome.
I take it an honor to be heretoday.
Well, thank you, and so I onlyhave one more question for you.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Has anybody told you today, I gratefully can say yes,
I've heard those words today.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Okay, well, I'm going to.
Nobody's told me.
So I'm going to tell you that Ilove you and I love you very
much.
I know you do, and I'm sograteful.
Hey guys, thank you so much forlistening.
I hope that you enjoyed thatconversation with Mama Gallen as
much as I enjoyed interviewingher.
It was quite the honor, andthis is something that I will
(50:08):
forever be glad that I have.
I also hope that you listenedto her when she said that their
type of their way, their brandof dealing with trauma didn't
work, that she ultimately had tofind her way through that, and
we all have to ultimately findour way through this.
And so now we are wondering thesilent generation raise, a group
of people that we know as BabyBoomers, and we will likely have
(50:32):
a couple Baby Boomers on thepodcast to tell us how they
experienced trauma, and I reallywould like to try to find a
family that we can pick up atBaby Boomers and go all the way
down through the generations.
And so these are things andideas that I have.
As you guys know, I am in gradschool writing a dissertation,
so what comes next will be ababy boomer episode, yet to be
(50:52):
determined, and so we arehanging in there with the
Wednesdays with Watson podcastthrough grad school.
It has not been easy, so thankyou for those of you who do
listen If you are inclined andyou see something on social
media, share about the podcastso that other people can also
learn how to navigate theseroads of trauma.
(51:13):
So we will be back in two weeksand before I leave, you know
what I'm going to say.
You are seen, you are known, youare heard, you're loved and
you're oh, so, so valued.
See you guys in two weeks.
So glad with every breath thatI am in.
(51:41):
Oh, I'm gonna sing of thegoodness of God.
I'm gonna sing, I'm gonna sing.
(52:02):
Oh God, there's no more lifeyou have been made for.
(52:29):
Oh, I'm gonna sing Of thegoodness of God.
Oh, I'm gonna sing Of thegoodness of God.
Yeah, I love your praise Forall my days.
(52:52):
Thank you, lord, for all mydays.
And all my life, you have been faith.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
And all my life you have been so.
So, hey everybody, and welcomeback to the Wednesdays with
Watson podcast.
If you don't know by now, myname is Amy Watson and I am your
host.
We are in our seventh season sohard to believe.
And today begins a journeythrough the generations that I
(00:33):
wanted to do.
I wanted us to evaluate in thisseason, trauma and you, how
each generation experiencedtrauma and how that probably was
passed down to the generationbeneath them.
And so today a very specialepisode, certainly a special
episode for me we will drop intothis conversation with Mama
(00:54):
Gallen, who is 91 years old, andfor those of you who don't know
who Mama Gallen is, she and herhusband, dad McGowan, started
the children's home that I grewup in and, quite frankly, saved
my life.
Today we talked to mom abouthow not only she experienced
trauma and how she had to learnhow to change, based on some
generational things that shelearned from the greatest
(01:16):
generation, as mom is part ofthe silent generation, and so I
hope that you will gain todayfrom this conversation, because
there's so much that is said inbetween the lines and this
interview with this 91-year-oldhuman being one of the best on
planet Earth, but she tells ushow she got from pushing things
down to actively sharing thingsin family and in community.
(01:41):
And so let's drop into thisconversation with Mama Gowan.
One of the greatest honors ofmy life is this interview with
her.
Okay, so my first question toyou is so you are part of the
(02:03):
silent generation?
What year were you born?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
1933 1933.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
That was a long time ago, guys years ago almost.
I mean like 91 year, 91 and ahalf years ago, so you are 91
years old, right and guys, whenI tell you that she is
remarkable, she texts me thingsthat I can't even figure out how
to text, and so, um, but thankyou for being here, mom.
(02:32):
I've been, I've been tellingeverybody that we were going to
do this forever and, um, wereally want to get your
perspective because you have somuch wisdom, and so thank you
for doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
You know that I I got my training at the children's
home doing this stuff, gettingbehind microphones and talking,
and so it's kind of a fullcircle moment, so we're just
going to jump right into it.
So your caretakers and we'regoing to get to that in a few
minutes about your story, butyour caretakers were part of the
greatest generation, theDepression era, yeah, so tell us
(03:07):
what you remember about theadults in your life,
particularly the Depression orin general, in general, or
whatever you want to sharereally.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, the adults in our life were very much.
You respected them and youwould never question anything.
They told you and you just hadtotal confidence in their wisdom
.
And it was a hard time becauseit was getting toward the end of
depression when I was born.
(03:36):
But they went through a reallyrough time.
There just wasn't food and butI was fortunate and well, I
don't remember it because I wasat the tail end of depression,
but I've heard them talk aboutit and how they had to manage
food and and what, how they didand it was amazing.
They, they, the old, sayingthat they say now it is what it
(04:01):
is.
They took that and they neversaid that is what it is.
They lived it that and theynever said that it is what it is
.
They lived it and that's howthey got through it.
They didn't question.
They just it is what it is.
We would say.
And my aunt would say whateveryou have to do, God will give
you the strength to do it.
So that's why I grew up underthat.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I love that because they call them the greatest
generation because they did gothrough so much.
They went, like you said wentthrough the Depression, the
First World War and then latersome of them fought in the
Second World War.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Most of them of my age.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Well, I was born during that Right you're kind of
in between, yeah, in between,so I can remember a little of
both.
Yeah, I love that.
You know.
Unfortunately, like I couldn'tfind somebody from the greatest
generation to come on to thepodcast because they'd be not.
Dad would have been part of thegreatest generation because he
was enough years older than youthat, yeah, so he was five years
(04:56):
older than you, so dad couldhave come on from the greatest
generation.
He's who I remember.
When I hear people talk aboutthe greatest generation, I think
of dad because, like, he livedthis whole life being in the
military he was military, policeand all of that before he came
to the children's home, and so Ican see why they call them the
greatest generation, becausethey just had this umph about
(05:19):
them that I don't know that mygeneration or the ones behind me
have today, like, just this,put your head down and do it,
and there's some not so greatthings about that philosophy,
but yeah, just really hardworkers, and so when I think of
the greatest generation, I thinkof dad for sure.
How do you remember the adultsin your life dealing with hard
(05:42):
things and you just kind ofalluded to it a few minutes ago
but how would they deal withthings like death and hard
things?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, let me say this they didn't share their
feelings at all.
Now, they may when they gotbehind closed doors, but they
didn't share things and theydidn't go in detail.
So when something happened,they just went ahead and did
what they needed to do.
During World War two.
I was eight years old when thethe war started at Pearl Harbor.
(06:16):
I couldn't remember hearing itover the radio, but I didn't
understand it.
Of course I was seven or eightyears old, but I did find out.
The rationing started.
The gas was rationed, the eggsand milk and butter, and the
ladies had to give up theirhosiery, their nylon hose and
(06:39):
just so many things that youdidn't have.
You know, you just made do andyou didn't have the real butter.
Anything you had is probablygeneric, as we would say today,
but they, it was all rationedand you were.
Then they gave it.
You had a booklet, they gaveout rationing stamps, and so
they gave the rationing books tohow many was in the family?
(07:02):
So?
So that's how they was able tosay, okay, now this family gets
da-da-da, and the next familymaybe not so much.
So I remember those rationingbooks, seeing them, and they had
them, and then when they went,but once they spent all that
book they couldn't get any moreuntil the next time they gave
them out.
So they really took care andwere very careful with that
(07:25):
rationing book to try to stretchit to make it worse.
It's just I'll have to.
This is funny.
Butter was rationed well.
I had an uncle, though, and hewas a butter love butter, and so
of course he couldn't getbutter.
So they had this thing thatthey had.
I forget the name of it was.
It was a white glob, is the wayI looked at it, and you put
(07:48):
yellow coloring in it.
And then my aunt had one ofthose molds, the old-timey molds
that you make a mold of butter.
She'd put that in there and putit on the table, and he ate
that every single time.
He never knew.
Never even noticed thedifference one time I, after he
was elderly, I had to share withhim you like that, didn't you,
(08:11):
uncle luther?
And he'd say wasn't mad.
I said I hate to tell you and II shouldn't have told him, I
just had to see his reaction.
He went.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
That's not true yeah, that that is fantastic and so,
yeah, so, so you remember, and II've always wondered, because
of the rationing, like you know,I think of teenage boys and I
know that you you had brothers,but they but there's so much of
an age difference, but I thinkhow in the world did they feed
(08:40):
the teenage boys?
Like it was rationing, you know?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
well, a lot of people back then too lived on farms
and they were able to.
That's how they supplied theirfood, and then, if they had any
at all left over, they couldgive it to somebody else or sell
it or whatever wow, that's thatI just can't and I don't know
that anybody in this part of whywe're doing this podcast?
Speaker 1 (09:03):
because we want people of today.
My generation, I'm gen x, yourgrandkids generation, they're
millennials and the great grandand great grandchildren that are
gen gen z and then so, like inyour family alone, you have like
five generations, and so Ithink that we can learn from you
and and there's not very many91-year-olds that I can bring my
(09:26):
podcast stuff to and youactually be able to have a
conversation with me, and so I'mso grateful that you're doing
this for us today.
You mentioned to me that theadults in your life did not talk
about the hard things.
Your generation is called thesilent generation for the same
(09:47):
reason.
Yes, did you just learn that byby what you watched?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
well, you watched your adults and that was, that
was a normal day for you.
If they didn't talk aboutwhatever was bothering them, I
don't know if they just didn'twant to maybe burden a child, or
they were just very, as you say, very silent.
They didn't come out with her.
Now, I don't know what happenedwhen they had closed doors with
the husband and the wife I'msure they talked about stuff
(10:13):
then, but no, you just didwhatever you were told.
I would never in my lifetime asa little girl ever say why.
You just knew whatever theysaid, they meant it and you did
it.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Well, you taught us that and that's a good thing to
learn.
So, during that time and I'mwriting my dissertation on some
of this stuff and so learningthe history of how we treat
psychiatric illnesses becausethey existed then, right, yes,
they did, and what people did,and I don know if, if you have a
(10:45):
memory of this, but they sentthose people away yes, they did
do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
you don't remember that no, not till, I was older
got you and so as you.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
So you just kind of went through your life and hard
things happened, and so tell usabout, like, who raised you?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
well, you want me to start while.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I was there, okay, yeah, let me go back to that,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You didn't pay any attention to it, because that's
the everyday living.
You live with people thatdidn't talk about all this, so I
wouldn't hear about it.
We would just say, oh, okay,that's whatever it might be, but
no, they did not share.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Let me ask you, before you answer, who raised
you?
Do you remember struggling withanything as a child or as a
teenager, and then because Ilearned this from you pressing
things down?
Do you have any memories ofthat?
Well, I have to tell you what?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
what started the memories?
Well, when I was you want me totell that when I was three
years old, my mother passed away.
There were 11 children in ourfamily and I was the last one.
I was number 11 and, uh, aftershe was buried, my sister, who
was three years older than me.
They gave her to an aunt anduncle that lived in another town
(12:02):
.
With no explanation, she didn'tknow where she was going, she
just got in this car and theywent.
Well, I was supposed to go tothe other aunt and uncle because
I was three.
Well, my older sister took careof me.
She was like my mother, shebegged and she begged.
Please don't send her away.
(12:23):
Well, he, my dad, let me stay ayear longer.
But then, when I was four, Ihad to go to the aunt and uncles
.
Back then, you didn't even knowwhere you were going.
They came and got me and put mein a car, and I don't think I'd
ever been in a car.
Oh, I thought that was theneatest thing.
They let me sit in the frontseat and I thought, oh my.
(12:46):
And we stopped at an uncle whohad a store, a grocery store,
and they lived upstairs.
We went upstairs and my aunthad prepared lunch and I
remember, even while I ate thebest green beans I'd ever eaten,
they had green beans.
Well, they had more too, butthat's what I remember.
Then we went to the road overthe mountain to where I was
(13:09):
going to live.
So I didn't know anything, Ididn't know where we were going
and I didn't even ask, I justlooked at everything.
So we got there, we went up thesteps and we went in the front
door and I happened to see thatmy other aunt had a little box
and it had.
What little few clothes I hadwas in that box.
(13:31):
And when she set that box down,I knew, I knew I'd never go
back home because my clotheswere sitting right there and I
don't.
I remember the one thing thatnight they had my sister stay
with me.
So maybe, be comfort to me, Icried all night long.
(13:52):
I remember that's plain as day.
But I didn't cry for my mother,I cried for my sister, ruth
that took care of me all thetime.
And my aunt, oh, she had abeautiful doll.
She gave it to me and I threwit down.
It broke to smithereens and Ibet she thought I don't know
what I'm getting into with thischild.
That wasn't what I wanted.
I want my family, my brothersand sisters, and here I am in a
(14:16):
strange place.
I don't want to stay in thisplace.
But, needless to say, after thenext morning my sister had to go
to school.
So I sat out on the front porchby myself and my other aunt's
car drove up and Betty and mysister got in that car going to
school, and I watched it pullout and it was like the end of
(14:39):
the world.
I could tell you right now howI felt inside.
It was the most lonely, hurtingI can't even describe it of how
I felt.
But guess what?
I didn't cry anymore like that.
Very quickly, at four years old, I knew okay, I guess I'm going
(14:59):
to have to live in this house.
And the people were great.
You know it wasn't them, but itwasn't my family.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
It just wasn't your family, that's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
So anyway, that's how .
Speaker 1 (15:09):
I handled it.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I just went in and did whatever.
I was told they were very goodto me.
I don't want anybody to thinkthey weren't, but they weren't
my home and they weren't with myfamily.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
But, I said okay to myself, I just went ahead and
did whatever they told me to do,and so you have done very well.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I pushed down all my feelings.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You pushed down all your feelings.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Well, they don't go away.
I'll say this, and I don't meanto interrupt you, but you know,
god works in mysterious ways andit says the things that have
happened to us is for thefurtherance of the gospel.
And so what happened to me?
As a child, I used to beingable to help children at the
(15:53):
children's home, but you know,know what?
I kept that same feeling andfinally I thanked the Lord for
it because I really knew whatthey felt like when they came in
there.
So God's hand was even insomething that wasn't, I thought
at the time, good.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, and I remember when I first got to the
children's home and I've toldthe story on this podcast about
how I first met you I was hidingin a little alcove and I
remember you just kind of pokingyour head in there.
But I knew in that moment thatyou understood, because my mom
had given me away, not at fouryears old, but my mom had given
(16:29):
me away.
But I definitely emulated how Isaw you deal with things and I
so I have a propensity to pushthings down and pretend that
they don't exist not, and Ithink that that served us both
well.
Right like we, you and I bothsurvived well into it.
I mean, you're 91 and I'm I'llbe 53 in a couple days, and so
(16:52):
we we did all right.
But have you seen any times inyour adult life when you've kind
of had to go back and and dealwith some things and and not
push things down?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
probably it was at the children.
Someone would get new childrenand I could see they were.
You know they did it too and Ithought you know this is not a
good thing to do, but I stilldid it and I'll tell you later
on how I came out of it go aheadand tell us now well, I married
the most wonderful man in theworld.
Yes, I was 16 years old and hewas 21 and we, the night of the
(17:28):
senior prom, we went to getmarried.
But anyway, this wonderful manthat I married, he taught
Because if we'd have adiscussion about something, and
maybe I didn't, we didn't argue.
But maybe I would like to havesaid something, I didn't say it.
So he taught me we wouldn't getup from the table until I
(17:48):
expressed my feelings Very hardfor me to do, but gradually he
really helped me.
Okay me, okay.
You know he wouldn't let me notdo it so.
I give the credit to him.
That helped me to realize thatyou can talk about things, and
maybe you don't want to, but youshould, so, yeah, he was my
(18:10):
mentor when it came to that andhow cool is that?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
you know dad, dad mc McGowan and plenty of children's
home people will be listeningto this podcast, but Dad McGowan
would cry at the drop of a hatand I remember you and I looking
at him like, oh no, there's Dadcrying again and we never did,
that's right.
Now I'm different.
Now I'll cry now, but that'sbecause I had to deal with some
(18:34):
of that stuff that I pushed downand I am glad that I learned to
to cope later because it wasjust too much right, like that
four year old memory that youhave, I have at 15 or 14 and
it's the same right and it'sjust, it's just too much.
And so I'm not at alladvocating that people not deal
(18:58):
with their trauma and notdealing with things like being
abandoned, but I am advocatingthat if people that are
listening to this podcast knowpeople like us, they need to be
the dad my gallon and comealongside and say, no, look,
we're going to talk about this.
Be the dad my gallon and comealongside and say, no, look,
we're going to talk about this.
(19:19):
I'm here, I'm a safe place foryou to talk to me, and so that's
what I want listeners to takeaway from.
This is like you and I used therepression of those those, those
bad things as a copingmechanism because we just went
on and you know, you got marriedto dad and you guys had a full
life.
You have two beautiful girlsand grandchildren and
(19:40):
great-grandchildren, and I justthink it's so cool that dad
McGowan, part of the greatestgeneration, probably also taught
not to talk about his feelings,had the wisdom that could have
only come from the Lord to sayno, this is not how we are going
to operate.
And so at the children's homeit was a little bit like we had
mom, who, kind of you, had astoic face and just kind of
(20:03):
always moved forward and youknow all other things, and then
we had dad and it was just thisgreat balance for us to look at
and be like.
There are times when it's justtoo much and you can't talk
about it, you might not even beable to deal with it, but then
there was Dad on the other side.
Right, definitely, yeah, so hewas definitely a gift.
(20:24):
I did not know that you guys gotmarried on your senior prom
night that's fantastic or on hissenior prom night, I'm guessing
, no, it was mine, oh, yours.
Okay, so you guys get married.
Okay, so you guys get married.
Dad's in the army.
You know you have children, oneof whom was born when dad was
still in Korea.
Dad came back and you guysestablished your life.
(20:45):
How did your upbringinginfluence the way you raised
your kids?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I have to think about that a minute.
It taught me the three wordsthat you whoever's listening and
do it if you just say I loveyou, and then hard times, I'm
telling you this because I loveyou.
Yeah, of course, as theyprobably thought.
No, it stuck with me and tothis day, if I talk to either
(21:17):
one of them on the phone, wealways end it with I love you,
and that breaks a lot ofbarriers down.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah it really does, and you shouldn't be able to do
that with your upbringing.
For those of us that are superspecial, we get.
Has anyone told you today, likeI, probably once a week get
that text from you.
Has anyone told you today, likeI, probably once a week get at
that text from you?
Has anyone told you today, andthat's, and that I know what
that means?
It means?
Has anyone told you that youlook, that they love you and
that was life-changing for meand so it.
(21:47):
So I'm so grateful that dad camealong and said hey, we're not
going to stuff, or you knowwe're gonna, as things can't
come up, because things wouldhave come up right, like you
would have had a fear of himleaving, for example, because
you had been abandoned, and sofor dad to sit and be, set that
steady hand for you, I think itchanged the story, because the
(22:09):
story so often with people ofyour generation is they raised
baby boomers and of course, thebaby boomers went and rebelled
and did all kinds of things thatwas never even thought of in
your generation.
Um, but you, but dad, kind ofbroke that.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
We don't talk about it well, let me tell you what he
would say.
And they'd say why did you getmarried and her so young?
He said I wanted to raise herthe way I wanted her to be.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
And he did a good job in doing that, and so I love
that for those of you peoplelistening if you were part of,
or if you have parents, mostpeople, a lot of people
listening, will have parentsthat are of your generation and
I think that you did the bestyou could with hardly anything
right.
Like you raised your own twogirls and then you raised all of
(22:57):
us having not really beenraised.
You did not have a mother'spresence in your life, and how
remarkable that is and that canonly be the hand of the Lord.
Like you have that strongmemory at four years old and yet
thousands of children in thisworld are better off because you
(23:18):
understood what it was likewhen they came in.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You know well, that's why I settled with being given
away and not be bitter as I was,you know, adult and all.
I did think about that and Ithank the lord that he let me be
in a bad situation.
All things work for good, butit doesn't say all things are
good can you say that again?
Well, because the bible saysall things are good to him.
(23:44):
That love the lord.
It doesn't say they are good.
They all things aren't good,but they are work for here.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
The good of you, right and that's that is so huge
.
Huge, because people like toquote that verse a lot.
All things work together forgood to them that love God and
are called according to.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
His service.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
But it doesn't say all things are good and I think
that's a real sticking point aswe talk about on this podcast
lots of people dealing with hardthings is probably the reason
why that verse in Philippiansthat you quoted a few minutes
ago is my life versus, becauseyou probably beat it into me.
But that verse says Paul says Iwant you to know that the
things have happened to me havereally happened to further the
(24:27):
gospel, and that was true withme, because I'm living proof of
that the first time we went intothe ministry in Georgia, this
little three-year-old girl wasleft.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Her mother had left her, and she just cried and
cried and it was getting darkand I knew the stars would be
coming out.
So I said, hey, you want to gowith me outside and we'll look
at the stars?
And she just cried and cried.
I said, let's go look.
Well she, let me take her bythe hand.
And we walked down this walkwayand her name was Kathy and I
(25:00):
said, kathy, you know what, whenI was a little girl your age,
just like you, my mother went toheaven too.
I said see those stars up there.
I said they're up there inheaven and I know it's very sad
for you.
And she looked up at me withher big old eyes and she said
(25:21):
your mother died too.
And I said, yes, yes, she didhoney.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
And then I said some more things to her, but she
bonded with me immediatelybecause she said she really, oh,
okay so and I know I have, I Ibonded with you immediately for
that reason and one of thequestions I had written down to
ask you and we really alreadykind of talked about it was that
how did that experienceinfluence your experience at the
(25:47):
children's home?
And you know, I think that youjust knew and you understood.
Well, that's why it happened tome.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
And you know, as I was an adult and then went into
the children's home ministry, Ithanked the Lord for what I went
through, but I hadn't thankedhim for that.
I hadn't figured it out untilthen.
Right, I got a slow learner.
But then, when I went in there,I thought you know what the
things that were meant badturned out to be good?
Oh man, like Joseph, you knowwhat the things that were meant
(26:17):
bad turned out to be good.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Like joseph, you know when he would they got rid of
him, and then they had thephantom and he gave him food and
so things.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
The lord uses all these things.
At the time you, you're hurt,you don't want to be that way.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And then, as time goes on, then you, eventually,
you figure it out and I thinkthat the difference between
overcoming difficult things likethat and not overcoming
difficult things like that isthat that attitude of this
(26:52):
happened.
God doesn't say it is good, buthe said he'll work it for my
good and I think justsurrendering to him like this is
a really horror.
I mean to hear you tell thatstory 86 years later, that vivid
memory of that four-year-old,five-year-old little girl.
Clearly it still imprints onyour heart.
(27:13):
But I think the difference whenwe have stories like yours and
we have stories like mine isthat decision to not let it
define us right, exactly, andthat takes a while it just
doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It just comes little by little and as you mature in
the Lord too.
Of course that's a big thing.
But yes, you realize.
Okay, okay, god, thank you forthat.
And when you can get to theplace where you have the bad
things that's happened to you,but they're in the past, you can
honestly go to the Lord and saythank you, jesus, for allowing
(27:51):
this to happen.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, I believe that with my whole heart.
That's what you taught me and Ithink that was a difference
maker for me.
It was, yeah, my situation wasbad, your situation was bad, but
that we don't have to be notonly defined by it, but we could
be and this is going to sound alittle cliche and I don't mean
it to but we can be refined byit and it definitely, looking at
(28:15):
it through the lens of, I mightnot ever understand why this
happened on this side of heaven,with the exception of things
like you can see, you had achildren's home ministry.
I can see I have this podcastministry and what I'm doing for
work and things like that.
I can see God's hand in it.
But that doesn't necessarilytake away the pain and I just
(28:39):
remember you teaching me Amyyou've got to take that to Jesus
.
Like I got chills because Iremember you and I have a very
fond memory of sitting on thesebig steps.
I remember the church wasColonial Heights Baptist Church
in Colonial Heights, virginia.
I looked it up because I wantedto try to see if I can get a
picture of that steps and Icould not find it.
(29:00):
But that was the day that yourtrauma and your pain helped me
heal from mine, because I hadnot told anybody some of those
things and my generation is alittle bit different.
We're not quite as tough asyour generation and so you guys
can put your head down and nottalk about the things that
(29:21):
happened to you.
And it was a different time.
Right, it was a much differenttime Because by the time I came
along along, we weren't worriedabout wars.
You've lived through World WarII, korea, vietnam, all the
conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia.
You've lived through the GulfWars.
We're getting on two hands whenwe talk about the stuff that
(29:45):
you've seen in your lifetime.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
You're talking about wars, world War II, I had a
brother, his name was James Well, he was in Manila when the
Pearl Harbor happened and henever came home after that.
He had just joined up.
Anyway, to make a story short,he fought and he was in the
Bataan Death March which was Idon't even remember how long,
(30:07):
but it was very, very long putinto prisoner of war camp and I
won't go into all of that, butthat's where he passed away.
Oh, my goodness, I don't knowthat.
I'm visiting.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
He was 25 years old.
And how old were you when?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
he died.
Well, let's say, world War II,I was probably nine, okay,
because the Red Cross sent to usa certain kind of paper.
It was thin and that's what youcould write to your brother or
whoever on.
That very, very thin paper iswhat they used and it was very
(30:40):
short, because I can rememberthat my aunt sat me down at the
table and she said now here issome paper and I told you, james
is a prisoner of war, which Idon't know if I really got all
that she said, but you're towrite him and they will give him
the letters.
So she got all the family.
He never got them, he diedbefore they did.
(31:02):
But I can remember that veryvividly.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Do you remember how the adults responded to that
knock on the door, saying Jamesis gone?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I wasn't there because they went to my dad.
See, I didn't live with my dadso he got it.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I got it from my aunt that they told, and I want to
step back to your dad for just asecond.
How old were you when he died?
Do you remember?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
no, I really don't okay.
He probably in my 30s.
Oh wow, okay I thought no,maybe even I don't know, I'm
trying to remember but you weremarried to dad.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Pardon me, you were married to dad oh yes, I had
children, wow.
So did you have anycommunication with him or any
relationship with him at allafter you got to be an adult?
Speaker 2 (31:46):
not really.
If I went to went to see him,we'd just chit-chat, that was it
.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
No.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I never had a conversation with him.
Do you wish that you had?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I don't know, maybe, maybe, but I just accepted that
too Right, and this is the pointof this series that I'm doing
with the podcast is how everygeneration is different, and so
you just kind of moved on.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I did not have any respect for him and I never felt
like he was quote my dad.
He might have been my father,but I never looked at him as a
dad.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
So a lot of people that have issues like their dad
abandoned them struggle with arelationship with god.
Was that ever?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
understanding.
No, I didn't have that and Ididn't have hatred.
I guess I learned from my auntand uncle.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I just accepted okay, the lord took him home and this
is what your generation does,and did you accept, like you
said, and I think that do.
I think that that thatgeneration later needed to
figure out how topsychologically handle things
differently and better, I'm sure, because you can always learn.
(32:58):
You can always learn absolutely, but at the same time, what?
What a generation?
It is your generation, rightand and and so you guys, you
know, just have this tenacityabout you that I'm grateful that
you taught me, but mygeneration doesn't have it
(33:18):
normally, and so I remember youjust teaching us, and me in
particular, and those steps thatwe talked about.
I remember you saying somethingto me and this has always stuck
with me and I've heard it otherplaces.
But I remember you saying to meAmy, you said it two ways.
You said, amy, you can let thethings that have happened to you
make you bitter or you can letit make you better.
(33:39):
So you even know.
I remember and and you made itbetter.
But because, like you, justdidn't give up on me.
You know, know, you understand,and I think that, to your point
of all things working togetherfor good, your dad leaving you
was not good, but the thousands.
(33:59):
I think by the time you and dadleft the children's home, there
were four or five thousandchildren that had come through
those three homes.
I happen to be one of them.
I happen to be one of them andI am so grateful for that,
because your pain absolutelyturned into a ministry to us and
to me.
And I also remember you sayingabout bitterness.
You said, amy, because when Igot to the children's home, it
(34:20):
didn't that, this stuff didn'tstop, the pain didn't stop.
My mom was still, you know,doing what she did and and I
remember you teach it telling meevery time something like that
happens, think of it as a brickand you can either build a
bridge with that or you canbuild a wall with that.
And I just remember you lookingat me saying please don't build
a wall.
And I never was able to makethings right with my mom just
(34:44):
because of those circumstancesbeen well covered on this
podcast, but I remember justthinking that's the way I want
to be with these things that arepainful, and I didn't want to
be bitter.
I didn't want to be bitter andthere and there's so many people
are, and I believe that I wouldhave been one of those people
had you not invested in my lifeand said when bitterness is not
(35:07):
going to make it better, youknow and that's a choice,
because I had a sister that wasthe other one that was getting
right and she never got past.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I mean, she just didn't get past it yeah, and,
and, and she was a wonderfullady.
Now she went to your other auntand uncle, right?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
so I don't know.
That's very interesting was wasit pretty good for her with her
, with your other aunt and uncle, as far as she was?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
made different than me.
She was very quiet where Iguess I wasn't.
And, yes, well, after she wasover there then the uncle that
had her passed away, so it wasreally the aunt that really
raised her no, she she was fine,I mean, you would never have
known it.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Right, because she Pushed it down.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
But it always stayed with her.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I'm really glad you said that because that helps us,
it helps the listenersunderstand.
So you did eventually talkabout the things to Dad and so
if she didn't, and if she justkind of never talked about it
and never dealt with it, thenyou can see why that would, why
there's the and and, honestly,you know, my sister there is not
, and I don't have a problemsaying it on this podcast,
(36:18):
because she is who she is andshe's done what she's done and
she's made the decisions thatshe's made.
But we could not be anydifferent if we tried, and I I
firmly believe it's because notonly you but dad and house
parents at the children's homeand later, when I went to
Clearwater Christian College,people just kept pounding into
(36:40):
me that I could not let thoseexperiences make me bitter, and
I'm grateful for that becauseI'm not bitter.
Even to this day I'm not bitter, and I'm grateful for that
because I'm not bitter.
Even to this day I'm not bitter.
I have my issues.
I have my issues, butbitterness is not one of them.
Okay, mom, so as we get towardsthe end and I definitely want to
(37:00):
give the microphone to you atthe very end, but I did want to
ask you a question because thisopportunity is gold for me to
have.
I will always remember thisnight, the night before
Thanksgiving, when you and I satdown in your house and we
talked about this and I'll havethis on audio forever.
But I, I, I'm jealous of peoplethat didn't have you in their
life.
(37:20):
Some of my friends have perfectfamilies not perfect families,
but they grew up in two parenthomes but they don't have this,
you ask about and this is just avery small thing of how you
deal with things.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
When I went to live with my last name, miss Snyder
well, the uncles were Snyder, soI didn't have to have a
different name, but they wereolder and they had not had
children, although they lovedthem and had other kids just
come and stay and all.
But this is so funny.
It was cold.
Well, I had to wear those longsocks that you turn down at the
(37:57):
knee and I looked at all thegirls that was going to school
with me and they had theirs downto their ankles and I thought
I'm not wearing these socks likethat.
So I went in the bathroom and Irolled them all the way down,
make them look like the sockswere down there, and then,
before I got home, I rolled themback up.
I mean that's just something ofa kid.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
But it was important to me at the time.
I didn't want to be different.
Well, I already felt somedifference, because they all
have mothers and fathers and allthat you know, but I can
remember the sock issue.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
That's hilarious and what I think is really funny
about that, michelle will listento this podcast.
So remember when, michelle, shewas like 12 years old and she
was still and you had to be 13to wear the, to wear hose yes
and and so Michelle had to wearthose socks that you're talking
about, where you pull all theway up to your knees.
So she's going to really laughat the fact that you went to
school and pushed yours down.
(38:54):
But I think you just bring.
A good point is that, eventhough your mom gave you away
and you were living with youraunt and uncle, you were still a
normal child.
But I didn't feel normal.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
But you didn't feel normal, normal that you didn't
feel, not that that's at thattime.
No, I didn't.
I wanted to be, wanted to belike the others.
Well, you know, that can begood or bad, right right, right,
and I had great friends and allbut that.
That was a vivid thing in mylife.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
How did you come to know the lord well?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
we.
I went to sunday school inchurch every sunday from the
time I.
I did when I was home, but myaunt and uncle sent me they
didn't go, but I did and Iremember very clearly.
My sister said you're 12 yearsold now, you need to quote join
the church.
So I did Not.
A Bible was open.
(39:42):
This was a big church, southernBaptist Church, and they knew
how to say it.
I never read a Bible verse.
They just filled out what'syour address, what's your phone,
church, and they knew how tosay it.
I never read a Bible verse.
They just filled out what'syour address, what's your phone
number and all that stuff, butthey never asked anything.
They didn't have the Bible.
So what happened to me?
I thought, well, if I died I'dgo to heaven, because I did all
this stuff at 12 years old.
Well, certainly that's not true, but I thought it was so.
(40:06):
Anyway, after we were marriedand all, and we had children and
we moved to Indiana, we went tothe First Baptist Church of
Covington, Indiana, had awonderful pastor.
Well, he preached the gospelvery plainly, what you do, how
you get saved, and, da-da-da,Well, I had never done that.
So that just bugged me andbugged me and I didn't do it.
Then I reverted back.
(40:27):
I'd like to talk about this,but I don't think I will, I'll
just have to listen.
So, anyway, then it hit me andI can remember very plain my
husband was at work and thegirls were in school and I had a
green chair with the big armsand I knelt by that green chair
and I asked the Lord to comeinto my heart and save me.
(40:47):
And that's how I got saved, bymyself.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
By yourself.
You led yourself to the Lord.
No.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
But I didn't get baptized right away.
And then we had to move.
Well, the Lord called us atGeorgia in the ministry, and my
brother-in-law had the church.
And then it started botheringme because I had been baptized,
but it was on the wrong side ofsalvation.
So I thought I better getbaptized.
So I went forward that day andhe said what are you coming for?
And I said I need to bebaptized.
(41:14):
And so, anyway, he baptized me.
So I've I said okay, now I canmeet the Lord and meet the Lord.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
You did I.
I mean, wow, that's somind-blowing to me.
Um, because you made thatdecision, so many lives were
changed a long time ago, a verylong time ago, but, but it just,
it speaks to the perseveranceof the gospel.
It does right like that was along time ago and we're sitting
(41:42):
across from each other with youknow, 38 years in between us.
I only know that because youwere were, you were born the
exact same year.
My own mom was born, my, my, mymother, you are my mom, my
mother was born and, and so 38years later, you know, a kid is
born, uh, in Jacksonville,florida, that one day is going
to come under your ministry, andum had a very similar situation
(42:06):
, similar Um.
I'm not even sure I've ever evensaid how I got saved on on the
podcast, but but I, as you know,was a good kid and came from
from a church in Jacksonvillewhere I was very active in the
youth group and I knew all thescriptures and everything, and
in those days they just scaredus to death, half to death, and
so I remember going to sleepevery night.
Lord, if I'm not saved, save me.
(42:27):
But I have a very distinctmemory of us being in Hartsville
, south Carolina, on tour atJohn Wesley United Methodist
Church and you always had mestand up on the front row with
the little girls and I remembercalling somebody to come up and
going down and kneeling down andyou came to pray with me and
(42:50):
you asked me and I said, mom, Ithink I need to be saved.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
And everybody was shocked because I was like,
because you were the good girl,I was the good kid.
The good girls don't make thedifference.
Jesus Christ is the difference.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
That's right, and I do think that after that I was
able to, because then that wasthat same summer, we went to a
camp meeting where I cannotremember the pastor's name in
Pennsylvania, lancaster,pennsylvania.
I can see him in my head.
He fell in the shower, butanyway, he preached a sermon on
bitterness, and between you andhim I decided you know that I
(43:21):
would not let these thingsdestroy me.
And so I just think it's sointeresting that someone of your
generation, who you'reliterally called the silent
generation, because you learnfrom the greatest generation, we
just don't talk about thesethings.
It is what it is like, what yousaid, but yet, uh, dad mcgowan
comes along and says no, um, I'm, I, we're married and I'm your
(43:44):
husband and we're not getting upfrom this table until you talk.
And so that's the takeaway Ithink from my perspective in
this conversation is Well, onething I wanted to say too.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
You asked me about raising my girls and all.
There's one thing Always say,whatever the situation is, first
, no matter if you have tocorrect them or whatever it is.
First just say I love you andthen go into, you know, maybe
the correction or what youneeded to do.
I never heard the word I loveyou till I met my husband, you
(44:20):
met dad and that, and I thought,did he say that you know?
But no, there again.
I guess they just didn't say itand I knew my aunt and uncle
loved each other, just by theway they.
I surprised that they, but Inever heard any affectionate
word, particularly, but I knewthey did.
So you know.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
And I'm glad you brought that up, because that is
part of the, I was going to say, the issue with your generation
.
I don't mean that.
I know what you mean, but butit defines like you were just,
you just knew.
That's that they loved you,right well, I'll have to enter.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I'll say this one thing I guess that made me it.
I couldn't figure it out.
And then again I thought Iguess they really love each
other.
They didn't call each other bytheir names.
She called him old man and hecalled her old women a woman.
But it was a sweet.
I mean, what are you a woman?
I?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
mean, it was a sweet time.
It wasn't a beautiful woman, itwas so sweet.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
That's what they called each other, and I thought
that was so strange.
I just never heard anybody saythat to each other, but it was a
show of their love.
That's just the way they did it.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
It's just remarkable.
It's remarkable that, with avivid memory of being given away
that young, that you just movedon through life and that you
hadn't heard anybody say youloved, now I was thinking I
don't remember, with theexception of maybe my aunt and
uncle being told that they lovedme until I came to the
(45:43):
children's home.
And so I think that lovechanges so many things it does
absolutely.
You know it can cover a lot ofhurt and a lot of wrongs, and I
think that's what happened foryou and for me.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
And I like that short verse God is love.
Yeah exactly, and that's thegreatest love we can have is
God's love.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And he is not silent right?
Speaker 2 (46:08):
No, he is not.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
And so, while I'm talking to someone who was
basically brought up to not talkabout things and later learn to
talk about things, it's just,it's remarkable to me that the
Lord is just so faithful in allof these things, and so go ahead
.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
One thing that I heard our pastor say here one
time.
He was preaching a sermon andhe said when God is silent, it
doesn't mean he's still.
He's still working behind thescenes, and that helped me a lot
, Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
When God is silent, it doesn't mean that he's not
working, and oftentimes probablymeans that he is.
You know, and and so I.
Just, this whole episode speaksto the difference that jesus
can make absolutely and thelives.
I mean, we're sitting here onthe wednesday night before
thanksgiving two, two peoplethat were given away by the
person that well, your momdidn't give you away, but given
(47:04):
away by a parent and, um, ourlives are drastically different
because of the completed work ofjesus on the cross well, I
never would have made it if Ihadn't had jesus right and that
might lead into your answer forthe.
For the final question is youare 91 years old.
This, this will this podcastwill be listened to, you know,
(47:26):
and as long as I decide to leaveit up, which will probably be
forever, what advice would yougive to those younger than you
as it pertains to these hardthings and how we deal with them
now?
Speaker 2 (47:39):
First of all, you have to realize it's okay that
you think that, but you don'twant to stay that.
And I think the most thing, ofcourse, when you get saved and
you ask Jesus to come into yourheart and then whenever an issue
comes up, he's right therebeside us.
But we just have to rememberthat he's there.
And we all face hard things,even though we're saved.
(48:00):
That doesn't save us from hardliving and hard things that
happen.
But I can tell you right nowevery time I've had to face
something like that, I haveknown I have felt that Jesus was
by my side.
So you have to communicate withhim.
You can't wait until just.
Oh, I need you, jesus.
I mean you just on a daily basis.
(48:21):
I know everyone's so busy, butjust take time.
For me it's of a morning, butit might not be for whoever.
But take time and just talk tojesus, read the scripture and
then, if you have questionsabout what you just read, ask
him and the holy spirit willreveal that, what it means to
(48:42):
you personally and that is mylife thing that has carried me
through 91.
You've done that 91, but in 91.
But, it, just it works.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Well, and you found something, and people on the
podcast have heard me say whatDad taught us.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Oh, I've told it to.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
When I walked in the door you showed me where Dad had
written On that yellow piece ofpaper.
On that yellow piece of paperstay in church, stay in the word
and stay on your knees.
I have one more question foryou.
So, mom, thank you First of allfor being here today and I
think that, uh, what you've said, and I will that that, that
(49:21):
line that you said he didn't sayit is good, but it doesn't mean
it is good, but it will allwork together for good.
I think it's so powerful.
So, thank you for being heretoday.
You're very welcome.
I take it an honor to be heretoday.
Well, thank you, and so I onlyhave one more question for you.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Has anybody told you today, I gratefully can say yes,
I've heard those words today.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Okay, well, I'm going to.
Nobody's told me.
So I'm going to tell you that Ilove you and I love you very
much.
I know you do, and I'm sograteful.
Hey guys, thank you so much forlistening.
I hope that you enjoyed thatconversation with Mama Gallen as
much as I enjoyed interviewingher.
It was quite the honor, andthis is something that I will
(50:08):
forever be glad that I have.
I also hope that you listenedto her when she said that their
type of their way, their brandof dealing with trauma didn't
work, that she ultimately had tofind her way through that, and
we all have to ultimately findour way through this.
And so now we are wondering thesilent generation raise, a group
of people that we know as BabyBoomers, and we will likely have
(50:32):
a couple Baby Boomers on thepodcast to tell us how they
experienced trauma, and I reallywould like to try to find a
family that we can pick up atBaby Boomers and go all the way
down through the generations.
And so these are things andideas that I have.
As you guys know, I am in gradschool writing a dissertation,
so what comes next will be ababy boomer episode, yet to be
(50:52):
determined, and so we arehanging in there with the
Wednesdays with Watson podcastthrough grad school.
It has not been easy, so thankyou for those of you who do
listen If you are inclined andyou see something on social
media, share about the podcastso that other people can also
learn how to navigate theseroads of trauma.
(51:13):
So we will be back in two weeksand before I leave, you know
what I'm going to say.
You are seen, you are known, youare heard, you're loved and
you're oh, so, so valued.
See you guys in two weeks.
So glad with every breath thatI am in.
(51:41):
Oh, I'm gonna sing of thegoodness of God.
I'm gonna sing, I'm gonna sing.
(52:02):
Oh God, there's no more lifeyou have been made for.
(52:29):
Oh, I'm gonna sing Of thegoodness of God.
Oh, I'm gonna sing Of thegoodness of God.
Yeah, I love your praise Forall my days.
(52:52):
Thank you, lord, for all mydays.
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