July 9, 2025 • 49 mins
We’re throwing it back to our interview with Julie Murray this week in anticipation of our trip to Boston for the 2025 True Crime Podcast Festival.
Julie’s sister, Maura Murray, disappeared in Haverhill, New Hampshire on February 9, 2004, and her family has been searching for answers for over 20 years.
In the second half of our interview, we’re breaking down what happened that night in Haverhill, conflicting timelines, weird findings at the crash site, and other confusing events that led to crucial time wasted and unanswered questions.
Julie clarifies rumors and speculation around Maura’s actions and her disappearance, and discusses what it’s like to live with a missing family member while navigating the true crime space.
Find out more about Maura Murray’s case by visiting: mauramurraymissing.org
📢 Follow & Subscribe:
Subscribe on Patreon: www.patreon.com/weirdtruecrime
Website: www.weirdtruecrime.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/weirdtruecrime
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/weirdtruecrime
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@weirdtruecrime
Email: weirdtruecrime@gmail.com
Edited by - djaudio22@gmail.com
Leave us a review and share your thoughts — it helps so much!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-true-crime--5679751/support.
Julie’s sister, Maura Murray, disappeared in Haverhill, New Hampshire on February 9, 2004, and her family has been searching for answers for over 20 years.
In the second half of our interview, we’re breaking down what happened that night in Haverhill, conflicting timelines, weird findings at the crash site, and other confusing events that led to crucial time wasted and unanswered questions.
Julie clarifies rumors and speculation around Maura’s actions and her disappearance, and discusses what it’s like to live with a missing family member while navigating the true crime space.
Find out more about Maura Murray’s case by visiting: mauramurraymissing.org
📢 Follow & Subscribe:
Subscribe on Patreon: www.patreon.com/weirdtruecrime
Website: www.weirdtruecrime.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/weirdtruecrime
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/weirdtruecrime
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@weirdtruecrime
Email: weirdtruecrime@gmail.com
Edited by - djaudio22@gmail.com
Leave us a review and share your thoughts — it helps so much!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-true-crime--5679751/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, friends, We're back with part two of the replay
of our interview with Julie Murray, the sister an advocate
of Mara Murray, who went missing in February of two
thousand and four.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Julie decided to join TikTok and start telling her own
story after dealing with the ridiculous theories that the media
and content creators had been spreading for years.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Besides hosting the hit podcast Media Pressure in twenty twenty four,
Julie advocates for other families and speaks about how showing
empathy to families in the true crime space is desperately needed.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Julie speaks at events like the True Crime Podcast Festival,
which is where you can find us from July eighteenth
through twentieth on Boston's North Shore. Grab your tickets at
Truecrime Podcast Festival dot com and use the code Weird
twenty for twenty percent off. Can't wait to see you there.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Be sure you're following us on Instagram and TikTok at
Weird true Crime and please consider leaving us a five
star rating and review. Wherever you're listening, we will be
sure to give you a shout out on socials. Good
reviews and kind words help us grow, and we can't
do this podcast without your support.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.
Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
It until next time.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Stay safe and make good choices. Bye bye, Fire Eyes Media.
Welcome to part two of our series covering the disappearance
of Maura Murray. If you missed the first part, I
highly recommend listening before diving into this episode. Julie Murray,
(01:41):
Mora's older sister, shared childhood memories about growing up together
in Hanson, Massachusetts, MOA's time at West Point and New
mass and insights into Morea's state of mind when she
went missing. Mara had a lot on her plate at
the time of her disappearance, and that's putting it lightly.
She had recently transferred schools and had gotten into trouble
(02:03):
for using someone else's credit card, which landed her on
three months of probation. She was also trying to support
her older sister, Kathleen, who was fighting her own battle
with addiction and a less than supportive partner. To top
it off, two days before she went missing, she wrecked
her dad's car after leaving a dorm party. Which left
(02:25):
her feeling guilty and ashamed. Needless to say, she was
going through it.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
We know the last episode and did pretty abruptly in
the timeline of events, but I promise we had good
reason see things get fuzzy very quickly the night more
I disappeared, and we didn't want to start treading that
path at the end of the first half and confuse you,
so we're going to confuse you now instead. Julie helped
(02:54):
to break down the events in an understandable way, as
well as point out the poor investigation, missteps and misinformation
surrounding Morris's disappearance. She also shared with us what life
is like for her family living with a missing family member,
current happenings in the case, and her engage with Empathy campaign,
along with what is planned for the twenty year vigil
(03:17):
in February of twenty twenty four. I'm Gina and I'm
Amber and this is Part two of the Disappearance of
Mora Murray.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
At the end of part one, we learned that, according
to official documents, Cecil Smith arrived on the scene at
seven forty six pm and found Mora's abandoned black Saturn,
but he later stated that he arrived around seven thirty
five pm, which means he have been there when Butch Atwood,
the bus driver, placed his call at seven forty two pm.
(04:06):
Butch's home was only about one hundred meters from the
accident site and he could see Mora's car from his house,
so if he saw a police officer on the scene,
why would you call for help. That's not the only
issue with this initial timeline either.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
The other issue is that there's another witness that drove
by the scene of where morris car was found, but
she had been passed by a police SUV with their
lights on, and she was passed twice, which is weird
and based on her time line from when she got
(04:44):
finally got into cell service on the other side of
Route one twelve up towards Lincoln, east of where Morris
car respound, it wouldn't have been possible for her to
have passed the accident scene at seven forty six because
the all that she made when she first got cell
service on the east side of one twelve was at
(05:06):
seven point fifty two, so it's at least fourteen to
fifteen minutes to get from where Morris car was found
to that point where you first get cell service, so
she could not have possibly passed by the scene at
seven forty six when Cecil said that he was there,
So that would put somebody there, an officer there much earlier,
(05:31):
about ten minutes before Cecil Smith clocked in. So I
don't want to rewrite history, and I want to go
with what's documented. And what's documented is the seven forty
six timestamp where Cecil clocks in and says I'm there.
Whether he broke protocol or not and was on the
scene ten minutes before and never called in, that's just
(05:52):
speculation because we can't prove that. All we can prove
is that he clocked in at seven forty six, So
that leads us to, well, who was this other officer
speeding down, passing this other witness twice it so's it's
very confusing, and this is the night up. So you know,
(06:16):
we've had twenty years to kind of think about this
and go over all the possibilities. But my family couldn't
and still hasn't gotten a straight answer from day one,
and now we're twenty years down the road and we
still don't have a concrete answer as to what actually happened.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Cecil Smith initially searched More's car and noted in his
report that the car was locked. However, there was another
witness who said she drove by and the car doors
were open. We don't know which damon is true because
the car was towed away the same night. There was
damage to the car, a small dint in the hood
(06:59):
on the driver's side, a cracked windshield that looks like
someone might have hit their head, and a white scuff
mark on the driver's side rear bumper. Julia is clarified
on TikTok that Maura didn't hit a tree because the
DNT it's too bumpy and doesn't resemble that kind of damage. Interestingly,
the car had a black box that tracked two events
(07:21):
that occurred within two hundreds of a second from each other.
The first event is the black box waking up, and
the second event is the deployment of the airbags. Julie
theorizes that maybe the sensors activated when the car went
into the ravine and then tracked the impact. The black
box data also indicated that Mara was only going about
(07:42):
twenty miles per hour at the time of the accident.
We know Morris steered the car back out of the
ravine because it was found facing the wrong direction on
the road. This factor led investigators to initially clock it
as a dui walk away, meaning someone had been drunk
and wreck their car and took off to avoid being arrested.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
There were several items found inside Mora's car. In the
front seat, there was an open sky Blue cooler in
the backseat. Some of the items found included an open
box of Phranzia wine from the previous Saturday night, a
suitcase filled with clothes, black gloves, a stuffed monkey, a
diamond necklace, two textbooks, a book called Not Without Peril,
(08:29):
the accident form she picked up for Fred, and a
broken Chrysler car part that kind of resembles a side mirror.
To this day, the Murray still don't know why the
broken part was in the car or who it belonged to.
Other crucial items were found inside the car, but we'll
talk more about that later in the episode. There was
(08:51):
also a rag found in the tailpipe. When Mora's car
began smoking due to the poor state it was in,
fred her dad told her to put a rag in
the tailpipe as a temporary way to block smoke. In
a pinch if she had to drive it in order
not to be stopped by police. So did Mara put
the rag in the tailpipe after the crash in an
(09:13):
attempt to clog any smoke if a police officer arrived
on scene, or had she been driving with it in
the tailpipe for an extended period of time. Fred was
asked to remove the rag from the tailpipe when he
saw four days after the accident and immediately recognized it
as one of his old work, tells the Murrays don't
(09:34):
know if it has ever been tested.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
When Fred checked out Mara's car after the accident, he
used a hidden spare key and started the car right up.
It was still drivable, So that begs the question why
didn't she drive to the closest gas station. Maybe she
decided her car was too unsafe to keep driving with
the blown cylinder, so she stayed put to call Triple
A and wait for help instead. There is a dark,
(10:01):
dirty mark on the interior of the A pillar the
bar between the driver's side window in the windshield. Julie
has spoken about this on TikTok and theorizes that it
looks like maybe a dirty handprint or even a shoe print.
If Mara had been pulled from the car, could this
be the sign of a struggle. Julie did share that
(10:23):
she does have some more insight into this, but it's
not something she can share publicly for obvious reasons. Something
significant was missing from the car, the rear view mirror.
That style of mirror is attached with a screw, so
it would have required some force to remove it. Not
(10:44):
only was it not in the car, it's still never
been found, and it's unknown if the mirror was on
the scene when the car initially crashed. Mara's backpack, keys,
cell phone, and the vodka and Klua she purchased we're
also missing from the car. Many different sources have stated
(11:04):
that Mora packed a bag like she was going on
a trip, but Julie takes issue with the word pack.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Here's why I take issue with the word pack because
if you look at the items that were found in
Mars car, if in fact she did pack, she did
a horrible job because what she had was and I'll
just go down some of the items. She had one
(11:34):
singular sock, not a pair of socks. One singular sock. Okay,
that right there is huge to me because you know
that makes no sense, especially if you're going into New Hampshire,
Northern New Hampshire in February and she's familiar with the area,
she knows that she needs socks. You need socks to
(11:56):
be up in that area in February. She had one
singular sock. She had no underwear zero another huge red flag,
like what college a's woman doesn't you know pack that?
She had two bras, she had an assortment of random shirts.
(12:21):
She had five gloves, so two pairs and then a
singular glove. No hat, no heavy winter gear, no winter jacket,
no boots, nothing like that. So it's just so random
the things that she had. And you know, people say
(12:43):
that she was going to meet someone, and I know
my sister and when I look at what she had
in the car, there's no chance she was going to
meet someone, especially a guy, with that list of items.
She would have at least had some sort of blouse
or maybe some sort of dressier clothes, because she would
(13:03):
always have that. And I'm speaking from experience, you know,
I've seen her go on trips before and I know
what she would pack, and she didn't have any of that.
Now I don't know exactly what she took with her,
because her backpack was missing, so perhaps she had a
pile of socks in her backpack and some underwear, which
(13:24):
would make all of this make sense. But as I
see it, and based on what I know, it doesn't
make sense the items that she had.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
When a person goes missing, the first forty eight hours
are crucial. Unfortunately, for Maura, there was quite a bit
of inaction and missed opportunity. As soon as Cecil Smith
arrived on the scene. The Saturn was registered to Fred
and had a Massachusetts license plate and a UMass parking
sticker on one of the windows. When Smith saw it
(14:00):
was an out of state car, he should have immediately
run the tags. Julie said they were told they ran
the tags, but if that were true, why wasn't the
family notified that Mora was missing until late Tuesday, almost
a full day later. Fire and ams were called to
the scene, but were sent away after only six minutes
(14:23):
when the driver of the car couldn't be found. It's
hard to know what the protocol is in this situation,
but the air bags had been deployed and the windshield
was cracked in a way that showed the driver may
have hit their head. There was also an open alcohol
container in the car, so we're talking about a person
who might be intoxicated with a head injury in freezing temperatures.
(14:47):
Six minutes is not enough time to thoroughly search the
surrounding area for a potentially injured driver. This is a
huge missed opportunity and a complete failure by the responders.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Because the Murrays didn't learn of Morri's disappearance until late Tuesday,
Fred wasn't able to make a behavirol until dawn on
Wednesday the eleventh. He arrived expecting to get an update
on the status of the investigation and search, but no
search had started. This immediately set the tone between the
(15:21):
Murrays and law enforcement. I want to take a detour
for a second here. Some sources say the Fred refused
to cooperate or talk with investigators and even hired lawyers
in his defense, but that's just not true. Fred was
constantly trying to meet with them but was repeatedly met
(15:41):
with resistance or given the standard. We've looked into that.
He did bring on two lawyers, but it was to
go after the police for the case files under the
Freedom of Information Act. He was suing them for information
about his own daughter's case because they wouldn't tell him anything.
(16:03):
That is infuriating. Okay, back to the evidence. There was
a coke bottle found on the scene under Mara's car
that followers of this case have always assumed was hers,
but the truth is it's not that clear.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Well, the responding officer said that he noticed a strong
odor of alcohol. I don't know, it's not clear to
me whether it was actually tested or this is just
based on his word. So it's weird because he claims
(16:45):
that the bottle was under the car, but he wouldn't
have seen the bottle until, you know, I'm assuming until
after the car was towed. I'm not sure that the timeline.
I don't know if they tested the bottle to see
if it was even more is if you know, we're
just making a huge assumption here that it was Mars
because she had the wine in the car and it
(17:06):
was in the vicinity of the car. But unless you
test it for her DNA, which they have, then how
can we be sure. So it's like Mar's case, we
can't be sure of anything, and that's what's so frustrating.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And did they ever give you the results of that.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
No, I don't know if they tested it. I think
they did, Okay, you would think that that would yeah,
you would think.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
And the red stains that are in the car, I
think it's so hard. I've heard that the box of
wines billed. Was that proven to be true? Or do
we even know what those stains were from or if
they even haven't in the crash or were they already there?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, So the assumption is that they were from wine,
but not from the box of wine. The box of
wine was in the back seat, so it would have
been hard for the wine to spill on the driver's
side door panel and the ceiling. So the assumption is
that there is some sort of open container that kind
(18:11):
of exploded into those areas upon impact and when the
airbags deployed.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And have those ever been tested to figure out what
it was?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I don't know. I don't know. I would assume I
would hope so, because that would be investigation one oh one, but.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Because I mean, I don't know if Fred had seen
the interior of the car lately, did he know if
any of the scoffs or marks had already been there
prior to her having that accident.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, it was definitely new, so the red standing had
not been there before. So the respuny officer did take
pictures of the vehicle that night. They haven't been made public,
but I've seen them, and from what I've seen, that
spill happened very closely to when he took those pictures.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
If the coke bottle or the stain on the door
had been tested, it could have provided more clarification about
who the bottle belonged to and if it even had
anything to do with Mora at all. There were also
two backpacks found on the scene. One was gone by
the time law enforcement went to look into it, and
the other one wasn't Mora's. We don't know if any
(19:29):
testing has been done on the rogue backpack that was found.
These aren't the only glaring missteps in the first days
of the investigation, though. A search warrant was issued on
the morning of Tuesday, February ninth to determine the driver
of the car. At that point, they should have known
it was registered to Fred From running the license, investigators
(19:51):
found several items with Mora's name, address, and phone number
on them, which pointed to her more than likely being
the driver of the Va Hickel, But that wasn't the
only name and number found inside of the car.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Another thing that was found inside Mars carr was a
handwritten name and number. And I just recently, within this
past year, saw the search warrant for the first time.
And so when I look at the items that were
(20:26):
taken pursue it to that warrant Tuesday morning, and I'm
reading the fact that this name and number was in
Mars car, I'm like, oh, well, of course law enforcement
reached out and kind of got to the bottom of
that name and number, and I said, you know what,
I'm just going to go ahead and call this number.
(20:46):
And of course the number was a landline wasn't connected.
So I did some research and I had some people
help me, and I was able to figure out who
the owner of that number was. Called that person that
was the first time that person had ever been contacted.
So police didn't even call the name and number that
(21:07):
was found inside Mars car that they took possession of
on Tuesday. So people wonder why my family's frustrated. There's
one example. You know, this woman is missing and you
don't even dial that number to figure out if they
have any information. So and so that's why it's you know,
(21:34):
people are like, well, just you know, let the investigation happen.
But for families in my position, we cannot just sit
back and wait for something to happen, because then you
find out there's so many lost opportunities, mishandled pieces of
information that we have to do our own investigation just
(21:56):
to have peace of mind, you know what I mean.
So that's the biggest The biggest thing is, you know,
finding out that that number was never called, finding out
that Mara called that condo owner in Bartlett, New Hampshire,
and police never called her until months and months later,
(22:20):
only after my family called her and said, hey, your
numbers in Mara's phone records from the day she disappeared.
Do you remember what the conversation was? And the woman
Linda was like, that was months ago. If you had
asked me months ago, I would have had a better
answer for you. But I just don't remember. And so
(22:42):
there another lost opportunity. Why was why weren't all the
numbers associated with this missing woman called? Why did it
take my family to call and then raise hell for
them to act.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
The number in Mara's car belonged to longtime friends of
the Murray family. Her phone records indicate that she talked
to someone with that phone number in January. Even if
it was nothing, it's their job to follow up on it.
When asked if she had any idea why Mara would
take a last minute trip on a school night, Julie
(23:24):
genuinely has no clue. It doesn't make sense for her
to go up to that area during a school week
right after a winter break. Yes, she had been stressed
out and struggling, but would that be enough of a
reason to jeopardize her nursing program. Julie shared that the
things more packed were not her standard attire when meeting
(23:47):
up with someone. She had seen her pack for trips before.
There were no blouses, dresses, or any of the other
normal items she would take when meeting someone else, And
if she were meeting someone when they have become concerned
when she never showed up. No one has come forward
saying they were meeting her that night, or if they have,
(24:09):
the Murrays aren't aware of it.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
As we've mentioned, there have been many theories and stories
spread about Maura's upbringing, her actions, and what was or
was not found after she went missing. We aren't going
to discuss those here because they hold no weight and
do nothing but hurt Mara and her family. There has
been quite a bit of victim blaming and tearing a
(24:33):
part of Mara's character because of the mistakes she made
in her young life, But honestly, who among us didn't
make some poor choices as very young adults, No, we did.
Mara's case is intriguing enough on its own. We don't
need to sensationalize it. The Murrays are already navigating life
with this horrible trauma, and now they have to defend
(24:55):
themselves against things that never happened. It doesn't help the
investigation and causes them more harm.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
So some of Mara's mistakes and missteps as a twenty
one year old kid trying to navigate life are put
under a microscope, and when you look at them in isolation,
they don't look good. You know, they're dumb. She made
some poor decisions, you know. But when you just look
(25:29):
at them in isolation and you don't look at the
full total picture of who this human was, who is
way more than just a single decision she made as
a twenty one year old, then it gets distorted, and
then that allows for people to rationalize exploitation. You know,
(25:49):
so ooh, Mara was drinking underage, Okay. You know if
you look at things like that and you see it
in all these cases, you know how you know she
was asking for it by wearing a certain thing, and
it's this whole victim blamey thing and it's disgusting, but
it's a way for people to rationalize their exploitation, which
(26:13):
is hurtful because then it makes the actual victim seem
less than. And when a victim is seen as less than,
what does that do to the investigation and the public.
It makes them not worthy of resources. And in a
missing person case, in unsolved murdered cases, when you classify
(26:34):
and bucket a victim as being less than and somehow
undeserving of the resources, then the cases don't get solved
and they're cold, and then twenty years later you've got
no forward progress. So that's something that's definitely had an
impact on Marra's case, where you know, it's almost as
(26:59):
if this straw man argument is made that my family
said that Marrow is this perfect, all American, flawless person.
But if you go back and you look, you'll never
be able to quote anybody in my family saying Mara
(27:19):
was perfect, all American and flawless. It's just this fake
argument that was made so that somebody else could tear
it down to get to that more sensationalized content, to
where you can talk about this person as if they're
less than you know, she's you know, the family is
(27:41):
saying that she's perfect. Where have I ever said that
Marrow is perfect? You can't find it because it doesn't exist.
Did Marra have amazing scores on our SATs? Yes, it's documented.
I can prove that. Did she hold all kinds of
records in running and cross country? Was she an amazing athlete? Yes,
(28:04):
I can document that. But just because you look at
that and you build this person up to be this,
you know, like goddess, doesn't mean it's my family saying
that she was this flawless person. And it's just like
this little game that people play to try to make
a better story.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Professionals are supposed to be objective and do their homework
with multiple sources and copious amounts of fact checking. In
Julie's words, you have to balance the public interest with
what could be emotionally harmful to the people you're talking about,
the Murrays have kind of been thrown to the wolves
in a way. Things about their family that have absolutely
(28:48):
nothing to do with Mari's disappearance have been put on
the Internet for the world to see. That isn't professionalism.
That's tabloid level content that pulls people away from the
facts of Mara's disappearance and hurts a family that's already hurting.
There have been multiple theories about what happened to Maura,
(29:09):
but there's one that has been particularly harmful.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
You know, people that insinuating that my family helped Maura
escape or helped her disappear, or we know that where
she is, or we are the reason why she disappeared
just nonsensical crazy talk, because anyone that knows my family
(29:39):
knows that that couldn't possibly be true. But more importantly,
why the hell would my family put ourselves through this
for twenty years if we this is all just a ruse?
You know, I'm just what am I I'm doing this
for my own health, you know, or my own selfish reasons.
(30:01):
It's like it's nonsensical and so, you know, you could
kind of get away with that kind of talk early on,
but come on We're twenty years down the road. We
don't know where Mara is. We didn't help her escape
to wherever you think she is.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
These theories make people think that Maura is undeserving of attention.
An example of this is the fact that Julie says
she sees comments online from people saying they're sick of
hearing about the Maura Murray case. It's hurtful. You're talking
about a human being that is loved and missed by
so many people. The constant speculation and rumor mill saying
(30:42):
she's just off somewhere are the reasons why people who
consume this content believe that finding her isn't all that important.
Julie mentioned the crazy insinuations about their dad being abusive
as another example of sensationalism that takes away from Mara's investigation.
She said, if there's evidence of that, let's see it.
(31:04):
But it doesn't exist, so there's no point in bringing
it up if there's nothing to support it. Online trolls
aren't the only people the Murrays have to contend with.
There have been several strange things that have happened to
them over the years. At a vigil for Mara, one year,
there was a man who called the venue and asked
for Julie specifically, he had pertinent information for her about
(31:29):
Mara's disappearance, but Julie had to meet him alone at
his car in the parking lot. Needless to say, she
didn't go. Here's Julie giving a few more examples of
the weirder things they've dealt with.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Y'all get emails saying they only will talk to my dad,
and they will only talk to him in person, and
he has to come alone to their residence, and it's
just like, you know, my dad's going to do it
because he's desperate, and he has done it, and I'm like,
I don't like this. I don't like this deab so
(32:07):
things like that. And you know, I got a message
on a YouTube video that was covering the case, and
that's the guy and he says he has information and
he needs to get in touch with me. And it's
not like I'm hard to find. I'm all over social media,
(32:29):
and so I eventually reach out to him and he
sends a response back saying he's got this information, but
he's on vacation and I'll get back to me in
a week. And of course a week comes and goes,
he doesn't respond, and then he just totally disappears and
I've never heard from him again. So it's just bizarre.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Besides the damage all of the misconceptions and rumors do
to Morri's investigation, it is also so forced Julie to
create boundaries for herself when it comes to who she
talks to in the information she shares. She has done
a lot of interviews for various projects where she was
told that the narrative will be fact based, but it
(33:14):
ends up being sensational fluff or full of the creator's
own personal theories and untrue statements. Now, she cringes. It's
some of the things she's been a part of. She
shared that in the beginning, you are so vulnerable and
it makes you an easy target. People take advantage of that,
and it opens you up for getting hurt. Creators in
(33:35):
the true crime space should want to help lift up families,
not hurt them more. Living with a murdered or missing
family member is a big enough battle as it is.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
It's something that you cannot prepare for. It's something that
you couldn't possibly understand unless you've had it happen to you.
Words aren't adequate be able to describe what it feels like.
But you know, I didn't ask for this, I learned
(34:10):
along the way. I didn't get a guidebook. I didn't
get rules and processes and to do list or anything
like that. You know, Families like mine are just kind
of thrust into the middle of it and we just
have to sink or swim and figure it out. And
so as the years progress, you kind of get better
(34:32):
at compartmentalizing what you're dealing with in terms of the investigation,
what you're dealing with, in terms of your emotions, what
you're dealing with in terms of distractions. And so in
my mind, I feel like it's this big file cabinet,
and I've been able to compartmentalize each aspect of it.
(34:53):
And one of those foul cabinets is, oh, hey, yeah,
like your own life, you know. And it's it's crazy
how many foul cabinets that I have in my mind
that are just dedicated to this thing that happened to me.
My sister vanished, and I still have to be a
functioning human. I still have to contribute to society, and
(35:17):
I still need to be able to find purpose in
what happened, and I can't just sit around and think
of woe as me and you know, kind of just
not be productive because if I just go down a
self destructive path, I'm not going to be able to
(35:39):
be effective in terms of figuring out what happened to
my sister. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that
goes into it. But the hardest thing is the ambiguity
of it all. And so when people deal with loss
and traditional loss, they are able to go through the
stages of loss and sort of this linear process, and
(36:03):
with ambiguous loss, like not knowing what happened and having
no answers, you're not able to go through that grieving process.
So you're kind of get you get stuck. And that
is really really hard mentally, psychologically, emotionally to try to
(36:24):
live what your new normal life is and always constantly
in the back of your head think about what if
and I just don't know and you know, and blame
yourself and second guess. And that's the hardest part is
the unknowing and living with the unknowing.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Do you find yourself having to force yourself to make
make time for yourself and give yourself some grace you know.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's it's something that the military
helped me with. And you know, I talked early on
about how I'm all this structure and discipline and I
love all that and time management. That's actually really really
been helpful for me, and I think it's allowed me
to be as effective as I have been in terms
(37:17):
of managing all of the stress and emotions that go
with This is my military and my leadership training from
the Army in West Point. So I'm thinking, oh, there
was a purpose for me to have to go through
all this BS and it's because eventually this tragedy is
gonna happen to me, and I'm going to need to
(37:38):
be able to be good at time management. I'm going
to need to be good at handling my emotions and
not being impulsive and not lashing out, you know, because
if I don't know if you've seen some of the
things that are written about my family online, but if
I was to just emotionally respond to all of this
(37:59):
stuff online, it would be so bad and such a
huge distraction to the goal, which is to find my sister.
And so my ability to kind of distance myself from
that has been very helpful.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
In addition to working her day job and spending the
rest of her time advocating for Maura, Julie recently founded
the New Hampshire Murdered and Missing Unsolved Coalition with Jane Borowski,
the only survivor of the Connecticut Green River Valley killer
and her friend Amanda.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
I was connected to Jane Borowski, who is the only
survivor of the Connecticut River Valley killings, which happened in
the eighties in New Hampshire and Vermont area. And so
I linked up with Jane and we just started talking
and she's an amazing person. And invited her to Mar's
(39:02):
vigil up in New Hampshire and so she was like absolutely,
and she follows Mar's case and all that, and she's
up there in New Hampshire. She lives locally, so she
shows up to Mar's vigil and I introduced her to
everyone and we're chit chatting it up and I say
to her and her friend Amanda, who is another amazing human,
(39:22):
I said, wouldn't it be awesome if we kind of
banded together? And I don't know whether it was my idea.
I don't want to take full credit for it, but
It was a conversation that we had collectively between the
three of us about hey, we should join forces and
try to make some change and get some answers because
her case is still unsolved as well. And I was like, cool,
(39:44):
like let's do this. And so then we set up
zoom meetings and we got together and we were just
chit chatting it up and we're like, let's do something,
and let's march to the AG's office. And so that's
kind of how it's started. And then we got connected
to other victims and survivors that had missing and unsolved
(40:05):
cases in the state of New Hampshire and we just
came up with this march and we started this coalition
and it's been amazing to connect with other people and
not feel as alone because we all have different circumstances
in terms of our cases, but we all share the
same grievances. Until it's good to just have that community
(40:31):
of people that are in this club that no one
wants to be in, and to kind of be able
to lean on each other. So we marched to the
AG's office this past August and able to voice our
concerns and that was just step one. And so since
that time, We've connected with other families who wanted to
(40:55):
join the coalition, and so there'll be other events and
efforts in the future, but it was it's amazing and
something that I'm proud to be a part of. That's
very cool.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
So do you have any other events planned right now?
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, in the works. We need to figure out what
our next steps are.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Julie also began her Engage with Empathy campaign in twenty
twenty two after seeing the empathy crisis happening in the
true crime space. In her experience, this lack of empathy
has allowed creators and consumers to take in the worst
days of people's lives as entertainment and passively consume their
(41:38):
tragedies during their morning commute or daily chores. She made
the decision to be more vulnerable and saw that by
talking to people face to face over zoom or on
the phone, they were able to put themselves in her
shoes a little bit better, rather than passively consuming her
story on their way to work.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
That little spark of empathy made Julie realized that people
in the true crime community can be a force for good,
and they want to be. We just need to allow
them to consume information through a more empathetic lens, which
is going to require people like Julie to be more vulnerable.
This realization created a positive change in the way she
(42:19):
viewed the true crime space and inspired her to create
the Engage with Empathy campaign.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
I instantly felt better and I'm making these connections and
people are saying, oh, I always thought this about you,
but now I talk to you and I don't think
that anymore. And I'm like, oh, that's because you see
me as a human and not this character that you
read about. Isn't that crazy That that's how that happened.
So I said, you know, enough is enough. I'm going
(42:45):
to do this Engage with Empathy campaign. And so I
created this little acronym and it's called care and it's
really simple and easy to remember, and it's kind of
the roadmap for how people should be consuming and creating
in my mind from my experience true crime. And the
(43:07):
first pillar I guess should say is the sea and
that center the victim. And you know we've talked about
that at nauseum. Obviously the victim should be the centerpiece
in these stories other than you know, otherwise why are
you doing it? And then a is avoid harmful speculation.
(43:27):
We talked about how speculation is hurtful in terms of
the investigation as well as for the families left behind
in terms of resource allocations and things like that, and
energy allocations, emotional energy allocations on the side of the
family members that are just struggling to.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Make it.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
And then our is research responsibly. This is a big
one in my sister Mars case, because there's so much
misinformation and people feel like if they just read it
somewhere that it's it must be true. And people need
to take a more active role in what they're doing
(44:09):
and don't just assume that everything on the internet is true,
because I can tell you it's not. And then E
engage with empathy because families like mine didn't choose these
paths and we don't have a way out, and so
engaging us with a little bit of empathy is going
(44:30):
to help us be more vulnerable and share more to
hopefully move the investigation forward, because a lot of times
people developed this mistrust for creators and the media and
are just kind of turtle up and don't want to
(44:50):
share and don't want to talk about and that's really
really problematic, especially for these voiceless victims. If the people
that knew them the best are now not able to
trust creators and media types, then their stories are going
to get lost and people aren't going to pay attention.
(45:14):
And that's the worst possible outcome for the victims. And
so that's why it's so important to just be a
good human. It's not hard, there's no cost involved to
just be a good human and treat these tragedies with
a little bit of empathy.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
As for what we as creators can do for the
families who shut down and don't want to talk to us,
it's simple. We just need to listen.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
A lot of times people approach these families or victims
or survivors as potential content. And having been in this
space for two decades now, I know when people are
only talking to me because they want to land and
interview or they want to create an episode and they
(46:06):
need my voice behind it. It's very very evident, and
I'm able to kind of weed through those. But you know,
there's tragedy is happening all the time, and you've got
these vulnerable families that are just vying for attention and
they'll say yes to anything and anybody. And people take
(46:28):
advantage of that, and so it's important to treat them
as if they're humans and not content and it shouldn't
be that difficult to do. And don't treat them as
if you know, you know, I've had situations where people
(46:51):
just want to ask me those questions to get me
to cry, and it's like, oh, that just doesn't feel right,
and it's not like this magical formula that you need
to just listen. Just listen and treat them as if
you know that they are who they are and they're human,
(47:12):
they're going through a tragedy and they're not content. And
if at the end of you you know, you spend
an hour talking to a family member and at the
end they're like, you know what, I don't want any
of that on record. That's their choice. You know, you
shouldn't be angry at them and be like I just
wasted my time. No, they opened up and let you
(47:33):
in for an hour of their life and at the
end they just didn't feel comfortable. And that's fine.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Victims' families don't owe the media or other content creators anything.
It's really not fair that Julie had to create a
TikTok account to dispel the ridiculousness around Mara's case and
constantly put herself out there. It's important that she does it, though,
because it creates a safe pathway for other people in
her position, to show them that it can be a
(48:00):
safe space, and there are other people who care and
want to support them. Speaking of wanting to show support,
Mara's twenty year vigil will be held next February in
New Hampshire. There's a tentative plan and Julie will release
more information in the next few months. We'll be sure
to share it here as well. Every year, Julie tells
(48:23):
her brothers and her dad how tired she is of
holding the vigil, but there are people who want to
be there and hold space for the Murrays, so they'll
keep doing it until Moa is found and brought back home.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
We are so thankful to Julie for letting us share
more's story and focus on who Maura was and what
it has been like to navigate life with a missing
family member. When consuming true crime content, it's important to
remember that you are listening to a story about a
real human being, and I think it's easy to lose
sight of that when we're taking in so much of it.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
For more information about moraa's d disappearance, visit Maura Murray
missing dot org or follow Julie on TikTok at Maura
Murray Missing. Whatever you do, avoid Reddit, forums or any
other websites full of the opinions of random people on
the Internet. One thing you can do is tell a
(49:18):
friend about the podcast.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Until next time, stay safe and make good choices.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Bye.
Hi, friends, We're back with part two of the replay
of our interview with Julie Murray, the sister an advocate
of Mara Murray, who went missing in February of two
thousand and four.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Julie decided to join TikTok and start telling her own
story after dealing with the ridiculous theories that the media
and content creators had been spreading for years.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Besides hosting the hit podcast Media Pressure in twenty twenty four,
Julie advocates for other families and speaks about how showing
empathy to families in the true crime space is desperately needed.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Julie speaks at events like the True Crime Podcast Festival,
which is where you can find us from July eighteenth
through twentieth on Boston's North Shore. Grab your tickets at
Truecrime Podcast Festival dot com and use the code Weird
twenty for twenty percent off. Can't wait to see you there.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Be sure you're following us on Instagram and TikTok at
Weird true Crime and please consider leaving us a five
star rating and review. Wherever you're listening, we will be
sure to give you a shout out on socials. Good
reviews and kind words help us grow, and we can't
do this podcast without your support.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.
Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
It until next time.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Stay safe and make good choices. Bye bye, Fire Eyes Media.
Welcome to part two of our series covering the disappearance
of Maura Murray. If you missed the first part, I
highly recommend listening before diving into this episode. Julie Murray,
(01:41):
Mora's older sister, shared childhood memories about growing up together
in Hanson, Massachusetts, MOA's time at West Point and New
mass and insights into Morea's state of mind when she
went missing. Mara had a lot on her plate at
the time of her disappearance, and that's putting it lightly.
She had recently transferred schools and had gotten into trouble
(02:03):
for using someone else's credit card, which landed her on
three months of probation. She was also trying to support
her older sister, Kathleen, who was fighting her own battle
with addiction and a less than supportive partner. To top
it off, two days before she went missing, she wrecked
her dad's car after leaving a dorm party. Which left
(02:25):
her feeling guilty and ashamed. Needless to say, she was
going through it.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
We know the last episode and did pretty abruptly in
the timeline of events, but I promise we had good
reason see things get fuzzy very quickly the night more
I disappeared, and we didn't want to start treading that
path at the end of the first half and confuse you,
so we're going to confuse you now instead. Julie helped
(02:54):
to break down the events in an understandable way, as
well as point out the poor investigation, missteps and misinformation
surrounding Morris's disappearance. She also shared with us what life
is like for her family living with a missing family member,
current happenings in the case, and her engage with Empathy campaign,
along with what is planned for the twenty year vigil
(03:17):
in February of twenty twenty four. I'm Gina and I'm
Amber and this is Part two of the Disappearance of
Mora Murray.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
At the end of part one, we learned that, according
to official documents, Cecil Smith arrived on the scene at
seven forty six pm and found Mora's abandoned black Saturn,
but he later stated that he arrived around seven thirty
five pm, which means he have been there when Butch Atwood,
the bus driver, placed his call at seven forty two pm.
(04:06):
Butch's home was only about one hundred meters from the
accident site and he could see Mora's car from his house,
so if he saw a police officer on the scene,
why would you call for help. That's not the only
issue with this initial timeline either.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
The other issue is that there's another witness that drove
by the scene of where morris car was found, but
she had been passed by a police SUV with their
lights on, and she was passed twice, which is weird
and based on her time line from when she got
(04:44):
finally got into cell service on the other side of
Route one twelve up towards Lincoln, east of where Morris
car respound, it wouldn't have been possible for her to
have passed the accident scene at seven forty six because
the all that she made when she first got cell
service on the east side of one twelve was at
(05:06):
seven point fifty two, so it's at least fourteen to
fifteen minutes to get from where Morris car was found
to that point where you first get cell service, so
she could not have possibly passed by the scene at
seven forty six when Cecil said that he was there,
So that would put somebody there, an officer there much earlier,
(05:31):
about ten minutes before Cecil Smith clocked in. So I
don't want to rewrite history, and I want to go
with what's documented. And what's documented is the seven forty
six timestamp where Cecil clocks in and says I'm there.
Whether he broke protocol or not and was on the
scene ten minutes before and never called in, that's just
(05:52):
speculation because we can't prove that. All we can prove
is that he clocked in at seven forty six, So
that leads us to, well, who was this other officer
speeding down, passing this other witness twice it so's it's
very confusing, and this is the night up. So you know,
(06:16):
we've had twenty years to kind of think about this
and go over all the possibilities. But my family couldn't
and still hasn't gotten a straight answer from day one,
and now we're twenty years down the road and we
still don't have a concrete answer as to what actually happened.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Cecil Smith initially searched More's car and noted in his
report that the car was locked. However, there was another
witness who said she drove by and the car doors
were open. We don't know which damon is true because
the car was towed away the same night. There was
damage to the car, a small dint in the hood
(06:59):
on the driver's side, a cracked windshield that looks like
someone might have hit their head, and a white scuff
mark on the driver's side rear bumper. Julia is clarified
on TikTok that Maura didn't hit a tree because the
DNT it's too bumpy and doesn't resemble that kind of damage. Interestingly,
the car had a black box that tracked two events
(07:21):
that occurred within two hundreds of a second from each other.
The first event is the black box waking up, and
the second event is the deployment of the airbags. Julie
theorizes that maybe the sensors activated when the car went
into the ravine and then tracked the impact. The black
box data also indicated that Mara was only going about
(07:42):
twenty miles per hour at the time of the accident.
We know Morris steered the car back out of the
ravine because it was found facing the wrong direction on
the road. This factor led investigators to initially clock it
as a dui walk away, meaning someone had been drunk
and wreck their car and took off to avoid being arrested.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
There were several items found inside Mora's car. In the
front seat, there was an open sky Blue cooler in
the backseat. Some of the items found included an open
box of Phranzia wine from the previous Saturday night, a
suitcase filled with clothes, black gloves, a stuffed monkey, a
diamond necklace, two textbooks, a book called Not Without Peril,
(08:29):
the accident form she picked up for Fred, and a
broken Chrysler car part that kind of resembles a side mirror.
To this day, the Murray still don't know why the
broken part was in the car or who it belonged to.
Other crucial items were found inside the car, but we'll
talk more about that later in the episode. There was
(08:51):
also a rag found in the tailpipe. When Mora's car
began smoking due to the poor state it was in,
fred her dad told her to put a rag in
the tailpipe as a temporary way to block smoke. In
a pinch if she had to drive it in order
not to be stopped by police. So did Mara put
the rag in the tailpipe after the crash in an
(09:13):
attempt to clog any smoke if a police officer arrived
on scene, or had she been driving with it in
the tailpipe for an extended period of time. Fred was
asked to remove the rag from the tailpipe when he
saw four days after the accident and immediately recognized it
as one of his old work, tells the Murrays don't
(09:34):
know if it has ever been tested.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
When Fred checked out Mara's car after the accident, he
used a hidden spare key and started the car right up.
It was still drivable, So that begs the question why
didn't she drive to the closest gas station. Maybe she
decided her car was too unsafe to keep driving with
the blown cylinder, so she stayed put to call Triple
A and wait for help instead. There is a dark,
(10:01):
dirty mark on the interior of the A pillar the
bar between the driver's side window in the windshield. Julie
has spoken about this on TikTok and theorizes that it
looks like maybe a dirty handprint or even a shoe print.
If Mara had been pulled from the car, could this
be the sign of a struggle. Julie did share that
(10:23):
she does have some more insight into this, but it's
not something she can share publicly for obvious reasons. Something
significant was missing from the car, the rear view mirror.
That style of mirror is attached with a screw, so
it would have required some force to remove it. Not
(10:44):
only was it not in the car, it's still never
been found, and it's unknown if the mirror was on
the scene when the car initially crashed. Mara's backpack, keys,
cell phone, and the vodka and Klua she purchased we're
also missing from the car. Many different sources have stated
(11:04):
that Mora packed a bag like she was going on
a trip, but Julie takes issue with the word pack.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Here's why I take issue with the word pack because
if you look at the items that were found in
Mars car, if in fact she did pack, she did
a horrible job because what she had was and I'll
just go down some of the items. She had one
(11:34):
singular sock, not a pair of socks. One singular sock. Okay,
that right there is huge to me because you know
that makes no sense, especially if you're going into New Hampshire,
Northern New Hampshire in February and she's familiar with the area,
she knows that she needs socks. You need socks to
(11:56):
be up in that area in February. She had one
singular sock. She had no underwear zero another huge red flag,
like what college a's woman doesn't you know pack that?
She had two bras, she had an assortment of random shirts.
(12:21):
She had five gloves, so two pairs and then a
singular glove. No hat, no heavy winter gear, no winter jacket,
no boots, nothing like that. So it's just so random
the things that she had. And you know, people say
(12:43):
that she was going to meet someone, and I know
my sister and when I look at what she had
in the car, there's no chance she was going to
meet someone, especially a guy, with that list of items.
She would have at least had some sort of blouse
or maybe some sort of dressier clothes, because she would
(13:03):
always have that. And I'm speaking from experience, you know,
I've seen her go on trips before and I know
what she would pack, and she didn't have any of that.
Now I don't know exactly what she took with her,
because her backpack was missing, so perhaps she had a
pile of socks in her backpack and some underwear, which
(13:24):
would make all of this make sense. But as I
see it, and based on what I know, it doesn't
make sense the items that she had.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
When a person goes missing, the first forty eight hours
are crucial. Unfortunately, for Maura, there was quite a bit
of inaction and missed opportunity. As soon as Cecil Smith
arrived on the scene. The Saturn was registered to Fred
and had a Massachusetts license plate and a UMass parking
sticker on one of the windows. When Smith saw it
(14:00):
was an out of state car, he should have immediately
run the tags. Julie said they were told they ran
the tags, but if that were true, why wasn't the
family notified that Mora was missing until late Tuesday, almost
a full day later. Fire and ams were called to
the scene, but were sent away after only six minutes
(14:23):
when the driver of the car couldn't be found. It's
hard to know what the protocol is in this situation,
but the air bags had been deployed and the windshield
was cracked in a way that showed the driver may
have hit their head. There was also an open alcohol
container in the car, so we're talking about a person
who might be intoxicated with a head injury in freezing temperatures.
(14:47):
Six minutes is not enough time to thoroughly search the
surrounding area for a potentially injured driver. This is a
huge missed opportunity and a complete failure by the responders.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Because the Murrays didn't learn of Morri's disappearance until late Tuesday,
Fred wasn't able to make a behavirol until dawn on
Wednesday the eleventh. He arrived expecting to get an update
on the status of the investigation and search, but no
search had started. This immediately set the tone between the
(15:21):
Murrays and law enforcement. I want to take a detour
for a second here. Some sources say the Fred refused
to cooperate or talk with investigators and even hired lawyers
in his defense, but that's just not true. Fred was
constantly trying to meet with them but was repeatedly met
(15:41):
with resistance or given the standard. We've looked into that.
He did bring on two lawyers, but it was to
go after the police for the case files under the
Freedom of Information Act. He was suing them for information
about his own daughter's case because they wouldn't tell him anything.
(16:03):
That is infuriating. Okay, back to the evidence. There was
a coke bottle found on the scene under Mara's car
that followers of this case have always assumed was hers,
but the truth is it's not that clear.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Well, the responding officer said that he noticed a strong
odor of alcohol. I don't know, it's not clear to
me whether it was actually tested or this is just
based on his word. So it's weird because he claims
(16:45):
that the bottle was under the car, but he wouldn't
have seen the bottle until, you know, I'm assuming until
after the car was towed. I'm not sure that the timeline.
I don't know if they tested the bottle to see
if it was even more is if you know, we're
just making a huge assumption here that it was Mars
because she had the wine in the car and it
(17:06):
was in the vicinity of the car. But unless you
test it for her DNA, which they have, then how
can we be sure. So it's like Mar's case, we
can't be sure of anything, and that's what's so frustrating.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And did they ever give you the results of that.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
No, I don't know if they tested it. I think
they did, Okay, you would think that that would yeah,
you would think.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
And the red stains that are in the car, I
think it's so hard. I've heard that the box of
wines billed. Was that proven to be true? Or do
we even know what those stains were from or if
they even haven't in the crash or were they already there?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, So the assumption is that they were from wine,
but not from the box of wine. The box of
wine was in the back seat, so it would have
been hard for the wine to spill on the driver's
side door panel and the ceiling. So the assumption is
that there is some sort of open container that kind
(18:11):
of exploded into those areas upon impact and when the
airbags deployed.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And have those ever been tested to figure out what
it was?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I don't know. I don't know. I would assume I
would hope so, because that would be investigation one oh one, but.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Because I mean, I don't know if Fred had seen
the interior of the car lately, did he know if
any of the scoffs or marks had already been there
prior to her having that accident.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, it was definitely new, so the red standing had
not been there before. So the respuny officer did take
pictures of the vehicle that night. They haven't been made public,
but I've seen them, and from what I've seen, that
spill happened very closely to when he took those pictures.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
If the coke bottle or the stain on the door
had been tested, it could have provided more clarification about
who the bottle belonged to and if it even had
anything to do with Mora at all. There were also
two backpacks found on the scene. One was gone by
the time law enforcement went to look into it, and
the other one wasn't Mora's. We don't know if any
(19:29):
testing has been done on the rogue backpack that was found.
These aren't the only glaring missteps in the first days
of the investigation, though. A search warrant was issued on
the morning of Tuesday, February ninth to determine the driver
of the car. At that point, they should have known
it was registered to Fred From running the license, investigators
(19:51):
found several items with Mora's name, address, and phone number
on them, which pointed to her more than likely being
the driver of the Va Hickel, But that wasn't the
only name and number found inside of the car.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Another thing that was found inside Mars carr was a
handwritten name and number. And I just recently, within this
past year, saw the search warrant for the first time.
And so when I look at the items that were
(20:26):
taken pursue it to that warrant Tuesday morning, and I'm
reading the fact that this name and number was in
Mars car, I'm like, oh, well, of course law enforcement
reached out and kind of got to the bottom of
that name and number, and I said, you know what,
I'm just going to go ahead and call this number.
(20:46):
And of course the number was a landline wasn't connected.
So I did some research and I had some people
help me, and I was able to figure out who
the owner of that number was. Called that person that
was the first time that person had ever been contacted.
So police didn't even call the name and number that
(21:07):
was found inside Mars car that they took possession of
on Tuesday. So people wonder why my family's frustrated. There's
one example. You know, this woman is missing and you
don't even dial that number to figure out if they
have any information. So and so that's why it's you know,
(21:34):
people are like, well, just you know, let the investigation happen.
But for families in my position, we cannot just sit
back and wait for something to happen, because then you
find out there's so many lost opportunities, mishandled pieces of
information that we have to do our own investigation just
(21:56):
to have peace of mind, you know what I mean.
So that's the biggest The biggest thing is, you know,
finding out that that number was never called, finding out
that Mara called that condo owner in Bartlett, New Hampshire,
and police never called her until months and months later,
(22:20):
only after my family called her and said, hey, your
numbers in Mara's phone records from the day she disappeared.
Do you remember what the conversation was? And the woman
Linda was like, that was months ago. If you had
asked me months ago, I would have had a better
answer for you. But I just don't remember. And so
(22:42):
there another lost opportunity. Why was why weren't all the
numbers associated with this missing woman called? Why did it
take my family to call and then raise hell for
them to act.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
The number in Mara's car belonged to longtime friends of
the Murray family. Her phone records indicate that she talked
to someone with that phone number in January. Even if
it was nothing, it's their job to follow up on it.
When asked if she had any idea why Mara would
take a last minute trip on a school night, Julie
(23:24):
genuinely has no clue. It doesn't make sense for her
to go up to that area during a school week
right after a winter break. Yes, she had been stressed
out and struggling, but would that be enough of a
reason to jeopardize her nursing program. Julie shared that the
things more packed were not her standard attire when meeting
(23:47):
up with someone. She had seen her pack for trips before.
There were no blouses, dresses, or any of the other
normal items she would take when meeting someone else, And
if she were meeting someone when they have become concerned
when she never showed up. No one has come forward
saying they were meeting her that night, or if they have,
(24:09):
the Murrays aren't aware of it.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
As we've mentioned, there have been many theories and stories
spread about Maura's upbringing, her actions, and what was or
was not found after she went missing. We aren't going
to discuss those here because they hold no weight and
do nothing but hurt Mara and her family. There has
been quite a bit of victim blaming and tearing a
(24:33):
part of Mara's character because of the mistakes she made
in her young life, But honestly, who among us didn't
make some poor choices as very young adults, No, we did.
Mara's case is intriguing enough on its own. We don't
need to sensationalize it. The Murrays are already navigating life
with this horrible trauma, and now they have to defend
(24:55):
themselves against things that never happened. It doesn't help the
investigation and causes them more harm.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
So some of Mara's mistakes and missteps as a twenty
one year old kid trying to navigate life are put
under a microscope, and when you look at them in isolation,
they don't look good. You know, they're dumb. She made
some poor decisions, you know. But when you just look
(25:29):
at them in isolation and you don't look at the
full total picture of who this human was, who is
way more than just a single decision she made as
a twenty one year old, then it gets distorted, and
then that allows for people to rationalize exploitation. You know,
(25:49):
so ooh, Mara was drinking underage, Okay. You know if
you look at things like that and you see it
in all these cases, you know how you know she
was asking for it by wearing a certain thing, and
it's this whole victim blamey thing and it's disgusting, but
it's a way for people to rationalize their exploitation, which
(26:13):
is hurtful because then it makes the actual victim seem
less than. And when a victim is seen as less than,
what does that do to the investigation and the public.
It makes them not worthy of resources. And in a
missing person case, in unsolved murdered cases, when you classify
(26:34):
and bucket a victim as being less than and somehow
undeserving of the resources, then the cases don't get solved
and they're cold, and then twenty years later you've got
no forward progress. So that's something that's definitely had an
impact on Marra's case, where you know, it's almost as
(26:59):
if this straw man argument is made that my family
said that Marrow is this perfect, all American, flawless person.
But if you go back and you look, you'll never
be able to quote anybody in my family saying Mara
(27:19):
was perfect, all American and flawless. It's just this fake
argument that was made so that somebody else could tear
it down to get to that more sensationalized content, to
where you can talk about this person as if they're
less than you know, she's you know, the family is
(27:41):
saying that she's perfect. Where have I ever said that
Marrow is perfect? You can't find it because it doesn't exist.
Did Marra have amazing scores on our SATs? Yes, it's documented.
I can prove that. Did she hold all kinds of
records in running and cross country? Was she an amazing athlete? Yes,
(28:04):
I can document that. But just because you look at
that and you build this person up to be this,
you know, like goddess, doesn't mean it's my family saying
that she was this flawless person. And it's just like
this little game that people play to try to make
a better story.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Professionals are supposed to be objective and do their homework
with multiple sources and copious amounts of fact checking. In
Julie's words, you have to balance the public interest with
what could be emotionally harmful to the people you're talking about,
the Murrays have kind of been thrown to the wolves
in a way. Things about their family that have absolutely
(28:48):
nothing to do with Mari's disappearance have been put on
the Internet for the world to see. That isn't professionalism.
That's tabloid level content that pulls people away from the
facts of Mara's disappearance and hurts a family that's already hurting.
There have been multiple theories about what happened to Maura,
(29:09):
but there's one that has been particularly harmful.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
You know, people that insinuating that my family helped Maura
escape or helped her disappear, or we know that where
she is, or we are the reason why she disappeared
just nonsensical crazy talk, because anyone that knows my family
(29:39):
knows that that couldn't possibly be true. But more importantly,
why the hell would my family put ourselves through this
for twenty years if we this is all just a ruse?
You know, I'm just what am I I'm doing this
for my own health, you know, or my own selfish reasons.
(30:01):
It's like it's nonsensical and so, you know, you could
kind of get away with that kind of talk early on,
but come on We're twenty years down the road. We
don't know where Mara is. We didn't help her escape
to wherever you think she is.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
These theories make people think that Maura is undeserving of attention.
An example of this is the fact that Julie says
she sees comments online from people saying they're sick of
hearing about the Maura Murray case. It's hurtful. You're talking
about a human being that is loved and missed by
so many people. The constant speculation and rumor mill saying
(30:42):
she's just off somewhere are the reasons why people who
consume this content believe that finding her isn't all that important.
Julie mentioned the crazy insinuations about their dad being abusive
as another example of sensationalism that takes away from Mara's investigation.
She said, if there's evidence of that, let's see it.
(31:04):
But it doesn't exist, so there's no point in bringing
it up if there's nothing to support it. Online trolls
aren't the only people the Murrays have to contend with.
There have been several strange things that have happened to
them over the years. At a vigil for Mara, one year,
there was a man who called the venue and asked
for Julie specifically, he had pertinent information for her about
(31:29):
Mara's disappearance, but Julie had to meet him alone at
his car in the parking lot. Needless to say, she
didn't go. Here's Julie giving a few more examples of
the weirder things they've dealt with.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Y'all get emails saying they only will talk to my dad,
and they will only talk to him in person, and
he has to come alone to their residence, and it's
just like, you know, my dad's going to do it
because he's desperate, and he has done it, and I'm like,
I don't like this. I don't like this deab so
(32:07):
things like that. And you know, I got a message
on a YouTube video that was covering the case, and
that's the guy and he says he has information and
he needs to get in touch with me. And it's
not like I'm hard to find. I'm all over social media,
(32:29):
and so I eventually reach out to him and he
sends a response back saying he's got this information, but
he's on vacation and I'll get back to me in
a week. And of course a week comes and goes,
he doesn't respond, and then he just totally disappears and
I've never heard from him again. So it's just bizarre.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Besides the damage all of the misconceptions and rumors do
to Morri's investigation, it is also so forced Julie to
create boundaries for herself when it comes to who she
talks to in the information she shares. She has done
a lot of interviews for various projects where she was
told that the narrative will be fact based, but it
(33:14):
ends up being sensational fluff or full of the creator's
own personal theories and untrue statements. Now, she cringes. It's
some of the things she's been a part of. She
shared that in the beginning, you are so vulnerable and
it makes you an easy target. People take advantage of that,
and it opens you up for getting hurt. Creators in
(33:35):
the true crime space should want to help lift up families,
not hurt them more. Living with a murdered or missing
family member is a big enough battle as it is.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
It's something that you cannot prepare for. It's something that
you couldn't possibly understand unless you've had it happen to you.
Words aren't adequate be able to describe what it feels like.
But you know, I didn't ask for this, I learned
(34:10):
along the way. I didn't get a guidebook. I didn't
get rules and processes and to do list or anything
like that. You know, Families like mine are just kind
of thrust into the middle of it and we just
have to sink or swim and figure it out. And
so as the years progress, you kind of get better
(34:32):
at compartmentalizing what you're dealing with in terms of the investigation,
what you're dealing with, in terms of your emotions, what
you're dealing with in terms of distractions. And so in
my mind, I feel like it's this big file cabinet,
and I've been able to compartmentalize each aspect of it.
(34:53):
And one of those foul cabinets is, oh, hey, yeah,
like your own life, you know. And it's it's crazy
how many foul cabinets that I have in my mind
that are just dedicated to this thing that happened to me.
My sister vanished, and I still have to be a
functioning human. I still have to contribute to society, and
(35:17):
I still need to be able to find purpose in
what happened, and I can't just sit around and think
of woe as me and you know, kind of just
not be productive because if I just go down a
self destructive path, I'm not going to be able to
(35:39):
be effective in terms of figuring out what happened to
my sister. So there's a whole bunch of stuff that
goes into it. But the hardest thing is the ambiguity
of it all. And so when people deal with loss
and traditional loss, they are able to go through the
stages of loss and sort of this linear process, and
(36:03):
with ambiguous loss, like not knowing what happened and having
no answers, you're not able to go through that grieving process.
So you're kind of get you get stuck. And that
is really really hard mentally, psychologically, emotionally to try to
(36:24):
live what your new normal life is and always constantly
in the back of your head think about what if
and I just don't know and you know, and blame
yourself and second guess. And that's the hardest part is
the unknowing and living with the unknowing.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Do you find yourself having to force yourself to make
make time for yourself and give yourself some grace you know.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's it's something that the military
helped me with. And you know, I talked early on
about how I'm all this structure and discipline and I
love all that and time management. That's actually really really
been helpful for me, and I think it's allowed me
to be as effective as I have been in terms
(37:17):
of managing all of the stress and emotions that go
with This is my military and my leadership training from
the Army in West Point. So I'm thinking, oh, there
was a purpose for me to have to go through
all this BS and it's because eventually this tragedy is
gonna happen to me, and I'm going to need to
(37:38):
be able to be good at time management. I'm going
to need to be good at handling my emotions and
not being impulsive and not lashing out, you know, because
if I don't know if you've seen some of the
things that are written about my family online, but if
I was to just emotionally respond to all of this
(37:59):
stuff online, it would be so bad and such a
huge distraction to the goal, which is to find my sister.
And so my ability to kind of distance myself from
that has been very helpful.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
In addition to working her day job and spending the
rest of her time advocating for Maura, Julie recently founded
the New Hampshire Murdered and Missing Unsolved Coalition with Jane Borowski,
the only survivor of the Connecticut Green River Valley killer
and her friend Amanda.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
I was connected to Jane Borowski, who is the only
survivor of the Connecticut River Valley killings, which happened in
the eighties in New Hampshire and Vermont area. And so
I linked up with Jane and we just started talking
and she's an amazing person. And invited her to Mar's
(39:02):
vigil up in New Hampshire and so she was like absolutely,
and she follows Mar's case and all that, and she's
up there in New Hampshire. She lives locally, so she
shows up to Mar's vigil and I introduced her to
everyone and we're chit chatting it up and I say
to her and her friend Amanda, who is another amazing human,
(39:22):
I said, wouldn't it be awesome if we kind of
banded together? And I don't know whether it was my idea.
I don't want to take full credit for it, but
It was a conversation that we had collectively between the
three of us about hey, we should join forces and
try to make some change and get some answers because
her case is still unsolved as well. And I was like, cool,
(39:44):
like let's do this. And so then we set up
zoom meetings and we got together and we were just
chit chatting it up and we're like, let's do something,
and let's march to the AG's office. And so that's
kind of how it's started. And then we got connected
to other victims and survivors that had missing and unsolved
(40:05):
cases in the state of New Hampshire and we just
came up with this march and we started this coalition
and it's been amazing to connect with other people and
not feel as alone because we all have different circumstances
in terms of our cases, but we all share the
same grievances. Until it's good to just have that community
(40:31):
of people that are in this club that no one
wants to be in, and to kind of be able
to lean on each other. So we marched to the
AG's office this past August and able to voice our
concerns and that was just step one. And so since
that time, We've connected with other families who wanted to
(40:55):
join the coalition, and so there'll be other events and
efforts in the future, but it was it's amazing and
something that I'm proud to be a part of. That's
very cool.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
So do you have any other events planned right now?
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, in the works. We need to figure out what
our next steps are.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Julie also began her Engage with Empathy campaign in twenty
twenty two after seeing the empathy crisis happening in the
true crime space. In her experience, this lack of empathy
has allowed creators and consumers to take in the worst
days of people's lives as entertainment and passively consume their
(41:38):
tragedies during their morning commute or daily chores. She made
the decision to be more vulnerable and saw that by
talking to people face to face over zoom or on
the phone, they were able to put themselves in her
shoes a little bit better, rather than passively consuming her
story on their way to work.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
That little spark of empathy made Julie realized that people
in the true crime community can be a force for good,
and they want to be. We just need to allow
them to consume information through a more empathetic lens, which
is going to require people like Julie to be more vulnerable.
This realization created a positive change in the way she
(42:19):
viewed the true crime space and inspired her to create
the Engage with Empathy campaign.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
I instantly felt better and I'm making these connections and
people are saying, oh, I always thought this about you,
but now I talk to you and I don't think
that anymore. And I'm like, oh, that's because you see
me as a human and not this character that you
read about. Isn't that crazy That that's how that happened.
So I said, you know, enough is enough. I'm going
(42:45):
to do this Engage with Empathy campaign. And so I
created this little acronym and it's called care and it's
really simple and easy to remember, and it's kind of
the roadmap for how people should be consuming and creating
in my mind from my experience true crime. And the
(43:07):
first pillar I guess should say is the sea and
that center the victim. And you know we've talked about
that at nauseum. Obviously the victim should be the centerpiece
in these stories other than you know, otherwise why are
you doing it? And then a is avoid harmful speculation.
(43:27):
We talked about how speculation is hurtful in terms of
the investigation as well as for the families left behind
in terms of resource allocations and things like that, and
energy allocations, emotional energy allocations on the side of the
family members that are just struggling to.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Make it.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
And then our is research responsibly. This is a big
one in my sister Mars case, because there's so much
misinformation and people feel like if they just read it
somewhere that it's it must be true. And people need
to take a more active role in what they're doing
(44:09):
and don't just assume that everything on the internet is true,
because I can tell you it's not. And then E
engage with empathy because families like mine didn't choose these
paths and we don't have a way out, and so
engaging us with a little bit of empathy is going
(44:30):
to help us be more vulnerable and share more to
hopefully move the investigation forward, because a lot of times
people developed this mistrust for creators and the media and
are just kind of turtle up and don't want to
(44:50):
share and don't want to talk about and that's really
really problematic, especially for these voiceless victims. If the people
that knew them the best are now not able to
trust creators and media types, then their stories are going
to get lost and people aren't going to pay attention.
(45:14):
And that's the worst possible outcome for the victims. And
so that's why it's so important to just be a
good human. It's not hard, there's no cost involved to
just be a good human and treat these tragedies with
a little bit of empathy.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
As for what we as creators can do for the
families who shut down and don't want to talk to us,
it's simple. We just need to listen.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
A lot of times people approach these families or victims
or survivors as potential content. And having been in this
space for two decades now, I know when people are
only talking to me because they want to land and
interview or they want to create an episode and they
(46:06):
need my voice behind it. It's very very evident, and
I'm able to kind of weed through those. But you know,
there's tragedy is happening all the time, and you've got
these vulnerable families that are just vying for attention and
they'll say yes to anything and anybody. And people take
(46:28):
advantage of that, and so it's important to treat them
as if they're humans and not content and it shouldn't
be that difficult to do. And don't treat them as
if you know, you know, I've had situations where people
(46:51):
just want to ask me those questions to get me
to cry, and it's like, oh, that just doesn't feel right,
and it's not like this magical formula that you need
to just listen. Just listen and treat them as if
you know that they are who they are and they're human,
(47:12):
they're going through a tragedy and they're not content. And
if at the end of you you know, you spend
an hour talking to a family member and at the
end they're like, you know what, I don't want any
of that on record. That's their choice. You know, you
shouldn't be angry at them and be like I just
wasted my time. No, they opened up and let you
(47:33):
in for an hour of their life and at the
end they just didn't feel comfortable. And that's fine.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Victims' families don't owe the media or other content creators anything.
It's really not fair that Julie had to create a
TikTok account to dispel the ridiculousness around Mara's case and
constantly put herself out there. It's important that she does it, though,
because it creates a safe pathway for other people in
her position, to show them that it can be a
(48:00):
safe space, and there are other people who care and
want to support them. Speaking of wanting to show support,
Mara's twenty year vigil will be held next February in
New Hampshire. There's a tentative plan and Julie will release
more information in the next few months. We'll be sure
to share it here as well. Every year, Julie tells
(48:23):
her brothers and her dad how tired she is of
holding the vigil, but there are people who want to
be there and hold space for the Murrays, so they'll
keep doing it until Moa is found and brought back home.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
We are so thankful to Julie for letting us share
more's story and focus on who Maura was and what
it has been like to navigate life with a missing
family member. When consuming true crime content, it's important to
remember that you are listening to a story about a
real human being, and I think it's easy to lose
sight of that when we're taking in so much of it.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
For more information about moraa's d disappearance, visit Maura Murray
missing dot org or follow Julie on TikTok at Maura
Murray Missing. Whatever you do, avoid Reddit, forums or any
other websites full of the opinions of random people on
the Internet. One thing you can do is tell a
(49:18):
friend about the podcast.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Until next time, stay safe and make good choices.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!