March 24, 2025 • 44 mins
A rare conversation with Frank Phillips, one of the original "plank owners" of SEAL Team 6 and Red Cell, takes us behind the curtain of America's elite counter-terrorism unit and reveals startling truths about national security vulnerabilities that later became tragic realities.
Frank shares his remarkable journey from being a restless 17-year-old who "just wanted to be a warrior" to becoming part of the legendary unit personally selected by Commander Richard Marcinko in 1980. With candor and humility, he recounts the grueling selection process, intense training regimens, and the unique culture that made SEAL Team 6 revolutionary in special operations.
Perhaps most compelling are Frank's revelations about his work with "Red Cell" – a specialized team tasked with testing security at America's most sensitive facilities by simulating terrorist attacks. "It was a lot easier than it should be," Frank admits about penetrating nuclear sites, embassies, and military installations. His account of flying a plane near a submarine during a security exercise in the 1980s feels eerily prescient, given later events.
Throughout our conversation, Frank offers a nuanced perspective on the controversial Commander Marcinko, describing him as "a visionary" who was "light years ahead of everyone else" in understanding emerging threats. "It was never about him," Frank insists, countering public perceptions of his former leader. The deep bonds formed among these elite warriors shine through as Frank reflects on old team photos, noting with poignancy that many teammates are now deceased: "Every one of those 80 of us created a bond that will never, ever be broken."
Ready to hear more incredible stories from those who've served at the highest levels? Subscribe to our podcast and join us each week as we honor the experiences of America's veterans.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larry Zilliox (00:00):
Good morning.
I'm your host, larry Ziliox,Director of Culinary Services
here at the Warrior Retreat atBull Run, and thanks to
everybody joining us today forour 100th episode.
We're pretty excited about it.
We have a very special guestwith us today and that's Frank
Phillips, a longtime familyfriend of ours, who is an
(00:22):
original SEAL Team 6 member.
A couple months ago over dinnerhe grudgingly agreed to come on
to be our guest for the 100thepisode.
So, frank, welcome to thepodcast.
We're really excited to haveyou here.
Frank Phillips (00:37):
Well, thank you, Larry, and congratulations on
your 100th podcast session.
Not sure why you asked me, butI'm honored to be honest with
you, so thank you.
Larry Zilliox (00:46):
Well, I was certain you would make an
awesome guest because there'ssuch a mystique around SEAL Team
6 and you're a plank owner,which, if you would just take a
minute to describe to ourlisteners what it means when
they hear plank owner as a Navyterm related to different units-
(01:08):
Well, plank owner, as itpertains in a Navy, is basically
when they would build thewooden ships and so on, the
first sailors that were assignedto that ship, that command, if
you will, actually received apiece of a plank that the ship
was built out of.
Frank Phillips (01:23):
hence the term plank owner.
Nowadays they're steel shipsand we don't get to take a piece
of that home with us, but we dohave the honor of being the
original members, foundingmembers, of that organization or
that command.
Larry Zilliox (01:36):
That would mean in 1980, commander Marchenko
chose you as one of a largegroup of original SEAL Team 6
members and that is now bestowedon everybody who joined the
unit at that time.
Is that right?
Frank Phillips (01:53):
That is correct.
Back then, Commander Marcinkowent throughout the SEAL Teams
and the UDTs and chose 80 men tobegin the new command, SEAL
Team 6.
And I was fortunate enough tobe chosen as one of those 80 men
.
Larry Zilliox (02:10):
So we'll talk a little bit about that process in
which you get chosen to be partof such a unique special unit.
But let's start with a littlebit about how you came to join
the Navy and what your initialtraining was like.
So that would be UDT and thenBUDS and then into one of the
(02:33):
SEAL teams.
So why did you join the Navy?
Frank Phillips (02:37):
Well, I was a young, restless young man that
thought he could do more outsideof my age group at the time.
My parents weren't content withthat, so we had a lot of home
struggles and I figured I wasmuch older and more prepared to
go into the world than theythought I was.
So I got in.
A lot of trouble is the bottomline.
(02:57):
I was a big sports enthusiast.
All the high school sports Iparticipated in, and I just
wanted to be a warrior, so tospeak.
I didn't even know about theSEAL teams or the UDTs at the
time, but I did know I wanted tojoin the Navy, and I wanted to
do it sooner than later.
(03:18):
I wasn't a big fan of theschool system.
I seemed to.
The sports I enjoyed, but theacademics I got through, but I
didn't want to spend a whole lotof time in school.
I wanted to get out in theworld and do something.
So at age 17, I basicallydropped out, based on the
trouble I was getting into withthe family and the community,
(03:41):
and joined the Navy.
Originally, I didn't join tojoin the SEAL teams, because I
did not know they existed.
While in boot camp, though, Isaw a wonderful film, men with
Green Faces, which was a Vietnamera recruiting film for SEALs
and frogmen, and at that point Iwanted to do that.
I went to the recruiters and Isaid I'd like to go there.
(04:05):
They said you don't have achance of making it, so please
choose five other items that youwant to excel at.
A little backstory on that.
Growing up I was not a big fanof airplanes, but my brother, 17
months younger than me, lovedairplanes, built every model of
airplane there was and I wouldbreak it, he would build it, I
(04:27):
would break it and I'd get introuble.
Anyway, the bottom line to thatis in the Navy I chose four
trades that were allconstruction trades bulldozer
operator, carpenter and I ranout of a fifth choice and a Navy
recruiter at the time said andI ran out of a fifth choice and
a Navy recruiter at the timesaid why don't you consider
(04:47):
being a jet mechanic?
And I said no way, I don't likeairplanes, I don't want
anything to do with them, Idon't want to choose that.
He said well, put it down, youwon't get it anyway.
That's your fifth choice.
Needless to say, I ended upbecoming a jet engine mechanic
out of boot camp.
I didn't make it to SEALtraining at that time Was
assigned to a squadron at NASNorth Highland, which is just
(05:11):
north of the BUDS BasicUnderwater Demolition SEAL
training unit.
So I'd have to pass through theunit every day, going to and
from work.
As an aviation person.
That I wasn't pleased about,and then in the evenings I lived
right on the beach.
I grew up in Los Angeles and Igrew up surfing a lot.
So after work I'd hit the beach, I'd surf in the morning, I'd
(05:34):
surf before work, and one dayout there a couple of guys that
I got to know that were surfingas well happened to be frogmen
and seals.
So they said, hey, you're outhere all the time.
It appears you like the water.
You know why don't you try outfor the teams?
And I said, well, I did onceand they told me I'd never make
(05:55):
it.
So I moved on.
They said, well, you don't knowunless you try.
So I thought about it.
I said, yep, I'm going to giveit a shot.
I went into my commandingofficer Monday morning and I
requested the opportunity to goto SEAL training and he just
flat denied it.
And the reason was was it was abrand new aircraft coming to
(06:16):
the squadron.
I was one of the six jet enginemechanics that had been trained
specifically on this aircraft.
So the Navy had alreadyinvested in me to do this
process and they weren't goingto cut me loose, at least for
four years, until I helped trainother mechanics, and at that
time I had a uncle-in-law in thePentagon, a captain, navy
(06:36):
captain.
So that was Monday.
I got rejected from mycommanding officer.
I went home and I dialed thetelephone up.
Officer.
I went home and I dialed thetelephone up.
I said hey, captain, so-and-so.
I said I'd really like to dothis in the Navy, but I've been
denied the opportunity.
Is there anything that youpossibly could do?
And he said I'm not sure I can,but we'll see.
(06:58):
That same Friday I went into mycommand and as soon as I
reported to work I was called tothe captain's office and I was
chewed out royally.
He had a yeah, it was, it was atough uh 15 minutes in front of
him and basically the bottomline was he said I don't know
who.
You know who you think you are,but you do have orders to seal
(07:20):
training and when you fail andwill fail, young man, you're
coming right back to my squadronand you'll pay the price.
Anyway, I said aye, aye,captain, and out I went and I
reported to SEAL training orBUDS training and once I
graduated from that I did goback to the squadron and I
actually went and visited myformer commanding officer and I
(07:42):
thanked him for the motivation,went and visited my former
commanding officer and I thankedhim for the motivation and he
wished me well and was glad thatI did make it.
So no hard feelings.
In the end, what year?
was that that was 1975.
Wow, okay, and I joined theNavy in 1973.
Right.
Larry Zilliox (08:02):
Okay.
Frank Phillips (08:25):
So yeah, and I'll be honest with you, there
are times it's spiritual, quitehonestly, but it takes all of
that and it takes all of thatand they purposely put you
through those various realms ofelements to find out who you
really are, because, as we know,when we're alone out there
doing something later in lifeyou need to call on all those
(08:48):
resources.
The neat thing was I not onlywent through BUDS, but
eventually I became a BUDSinstructor, so I got to see it
from both sides.
Larry Zilliox (08:59):
Wow, and so you're through BUDS and you get
assigned to a team.
What team did you go tooriginally?
Frank Phillips (09:04):
Well, I went to UDT 11, Underwater Demolition
Team 11, which was on the WestCoast Right.
Larry Zilliox (09:09):
Okay At San Diego .
Frank Phillips (09:10):
Yes, Colorado yeah.
Larry Zilliox (09:12):
How long?
Frank Phillips (09:12):
were you there.
I was in UDT 11, probably 18months.
What I did there was, as soonas I graduated BUDS, they put me
in a seagoing platoon.
So I went from Buzz, I wentthrough jump school, army jump
school and then immediately intowhat they call an ORE
operational readiness evaluation.
(09:33):
The platoon was alreadytogether and there was four of
us, as they call FNGs, friendlynew guys.
Okay, in this platoon of allVietnam veterans, I mean heroes,
good men.
So we were the four newbies andas soon as I got back from jump
school, they threw me in thisoperational readiness exercise
(09:56):
to where we had to do all thethings that we were going to do
on our deployment and pass sothat we could go together as a
platoon.
So we got thrown right intothis mix of these senior, senior
vets, well-respected men.
So that was wonderful for mebecause I learned a whole lot.
But we got abused throughoutthat platoon as well.
(10:18):
I bet yeah, but it was a goodcruise.
Larry Zilliox (10:22):
And so were you an instructor at the time that
you were contacted about comingon board with SEAL Team 6, or
were you in a team?
Frank Phillips (10:32):
No, I was actually at Buzz as an
instructor when CommanderMarcinko went out and started
the interviews.
That is correct, yeah.
Larry Zilliox (10:40):
Had you served with him in any capacity prior
to that, or how did he becomeaware of you and how did it come
up that you were a prospect forthe team?
Frank Phillips (10:51):
So what happened after Team 11, I went back to
SEAL Team 2 on the East Coastand there I was in a platoon and
we had some new guys come inand in our platoon a new
teammate came in by the name ofLarry, and Larry was a former
Marine and got out of theMarines, went into the SEALs,
(11:14):
went through BUDS, graduated andwas a new teammate in SEAL Team
2 in our deploying platoon atthe time and I was designated as
the ordnance department rep forour platoon and I needed to
have someone assist me.
So when I was going through themanpower selections we had
(11:34):
Larry was a Marine, figured heknew weapons well I asked to
have him as my assistantordnance teammate and that was
approved.
He became my assistant.
We became really close friendsthroughout our deployments out
of SEAL Team 2.
And then at some point in SEALTeam 2, I had my father passed
(11:55):
away and I came back for hisfuneral.
At the time I had athree-year-old daughter who was
having some medical issues andwe took her to the Naval
Hospital and found out shedidn't have long to live either.
So the Navy was kind enough,generous enough, asked me what
did I want to do in that periodof time we had left with her.
(12:17):
So I asked to be transferred tothe West Coast where I grew up
with my family, to SEAL Team 1,and allow her to pass and then,
you know, remain at SEAL Team 1.
So Larry and I became veryclose friends in that deployment
and time we spent together inTeam 2.
(12:38):
Once I went to the West Coastand my daughter passed and I got
back into SEAL Team 1.
I made a deployment with them.
Larry and I stayed in contact.
But then when I came back fromthe deployment to do shore duty,
I went to the training centerBUDS, and Larry called me up one
(12:58):
night and he said I'm nottalking to you, but if you get a
request to interview withCommander Marcinko, who used to
be CEO of SEAL Team 2, take it.
So that's everything we've everdreamed about doing as warriors
in the teams and this is anopportunity to be on the front
(13:18):
line in helping and developingthat process.
So I said don't ask questions,just say yes and go, okay.
Larry Zilliox (13:25):
So for those of our listeners who have read the
commander's book Rogue One,you'll know Frank and Larry to
be the Gold Dust Twins and it'sa fascinating book and I
encourage everybody to read itbecause it's really interesting
the whole way that the commanderstood up the team and fought
(13:48):
for everything that you guysused and and what was it like
you, having been in SEAL Team 2on the East Coast, then to 1 and
then now into 6, whicheverything that I read about it
in in the commander's book andany place else it?
It was just light years aheadof the other teams as far as
(14:11):
budget, as far as equipment, asfar as the ability to develop
your own equipment and figureout what works best for you and
not having to work withoff-the-shelf kind of stuff,
switching over to weapons madenot by the United States, just
(14:31):
things that other units justdreamed about.
So all of a sudden it wasreally different for you.
What did you think about that?
Frank Phillips (14:40):
Well, let me say , first and foremost, it was
incredible.
I mean to sum it all up, it wasjust an incredible experience,
once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,and what I want to say is that
the men are the men across theboard, and Commander Marcinko
decided to choose who he chose.
For whatever reasons and youknow that's a whole other story
(15:03):
he chose, you know, seasonedvets for purposes.
He chose non-combat vets forother purposes and he chose
rogues, if you will, forpurposes of going beyond what is
allowed.
But what he did that reallyhelped get us light years ahead,
(15:25):
if you will, was the equipmentbeing able to acquire or being
able to develop and testequipment that wasn't on the
shelf, that wasn't in themilitary system.
We went outside, basically forthe experts, worldwide experts
to help us develop, design andutilize equipment for new
(15:45):
tactics and techniques that wewere developing as well,
techniques that we weredeveloping as well.
So I think he provided thepurse and we provided the wants.
Hey, if we could have this orif we could do that, you know we
could accomplish so-and-so.
And he'd say, well, do it.
And he relied, like I said,there was 80 men to start with
(16:08):
and every one of us had triple,quadruple duties to go out and
find something that was outsidethe norm.
How do we perfect this, how dowe make you know, how do we go
faster, how do we go deeper, howdo we go farther, harder, and
so on.
And I think that the people thathe selected had that mindset,
(16:30):
which is what helped propel usthrough developing these new
things.
In fact, somewhere in ouroriginal designation I think we
were kind of a T&E outfit testand evaluate outfit.
I think that's how he helpedsell some of the things he sold.
You know, you guys build it,we'll break it and then we'll
help you make it better, andthat's what we did.
You know, we were instrumentalin the Ram Air parachutes for
(16:54):
the military across the board.
They weren't using squareparachutes at the time and we
started using those.
We actually began the processby towing each other behind a
Jeep, like flying a kite at 500feet of rope.
You know, wow, at 500 feet ofrope, you know Wow.
That was interesting and we hadsome failures on that as well,
(17:17):
but that's how we did things.
We just figured it out andtried it and made it work.
Larry Zilliox (17:24):
And if it didn't work we moved on to the next.
So I also got the sense, inreading the book too, that
almost everything that thecommander did was done with sort
of training in mind, and eventhe simplest things like we're
going from point A to point B,we're leaving Little Creek and
we're going to Louisiana, butwe're going to make the trip to
(17:45):
Louisiana.
Training in the sense of how wetransport, how we look, how we
operate as groups of guystraveling one way.
And I know when you deployedoverseas sometimes some would
fly, some would take the trainfrom an operational security
(18:05):
standpoint, I understand thatyou don't travel as a group of
80 guys it would be prettyobvious what was going on, but
it seemed like everything he didhe was so focused, laser
focused on how can I use thistime and this, what we're about
to do, as training to makethings better for the team?
(18:26):
Do you get the sense that?
Was there ever any overtraining?
Was there ever anything?
Can't we just get in the carand drive?
Frank Phillips (18:34):
He put us at such a fast pace from day one,
day one, the initial muster andformation of the team.
Once we checked in, everybodylooked at each other.
We spent the next seven, eightweeks and almost a 24-hour a day
, six to seven days a week,training just to get up to speed
(18:58):
, to operate according to him.
Like I said, he multitasked allof us with multiple things, but
every moment of every day wasintentional.
It really was.
We were divided into two teams.
Each team had six to eight boatcrews of six to eight men
(19:19):
apiece and that would be ourelements, how we function.
And, yes, when we traveled, itwas always operational and back
then, you know, terrorism was abig event.
So we all had cover stories, ifyou will.
We all had different names thatwe were asked to use when it
(19:39):
was appropriate times.
So, wherever we were, you hadto be in that element and ready
to go.
As an example, we got throughthis seven to eight weeks of
extremely intensive training andwe all had actually conics
boxes per boat crew.
That was set up with ouroperational gear loadout.
So at any given time we had anX number of hours, if you will,
(20:03):
to be recalled, pack up and beon the tarmac ready to go.
So all of us had a conics box,wooden cubicles in it, so you
would have your weaponsequipment, you would have your
parachuted, whatever was allstaged there.
So, whatever the operation was,you'd be called in gather it up
(20:24):
, and off you go.
So we got through the seven oreight weeks of intensive
training and everybody wasextremely exhausted.
I mean, we were beat down tonothing and we knew it was the
index.
So everybody decided we'regoing to have a night on the
town.
So the entire team blue team,gold team finished training and
off we went downtown to thelocal local clubs and bars and
(20:48):
we just got smashed, okay.
And about 3 o'clock thatmorning he held a recall,
knowing what we were doing.
Some people didn't even make it, some fell asleep under their
cars trying to get—anyway, itwas crazy.
But he made a point.
He said if you're going to bepart of this organization, if
(21:10):
you're going to do the things wewant you to do and the things
that you want to do, you betterbe ready, first and foremost, to
have your priorities right.
Yeah, don't ever, don't, everlet it happen again.
Wow.
Larry Zilliox (21:20):
Wow, that was an eye opener.
Yeah, I can't imagine Thinkingback to your time in there.
What did you like best aboutwhat you did Shooting, blowing
stuff up, diving parachuting.
Did you have a favoriteactivity that you were excited
(21:40):
about when it came time to dothat?
Frank Phillips (21:43):
So I enjoyed, larry, all of it, to be honest
with you, and it was nicebecause it wasn't a routine but
I did, I truly enjoyed all of it.
But I'm going to share with youand it was nice because it
wasn't a routine, but I did, Itruly enjoyed all of it.
But I'm going to share with youand I'm going to go back to the
beginning of all this to make apoint here.
But we ended up being our bowcrew within Blue Team, ended up
(22:04):
being the Air Ops team Becauseour skill sets with the people
we had in our crew Larry willdeny this because he hated
jumping and he got stuck in theair ops boat crew, but anyway.
So we helped develop and trainthe guys with the new free fall
equipment and so on, and wewould test it, throwing boats
(22:27):
out of the airplane withparachutes and us following it,
jumping on oil rigs and landingon the helicopter platform,
which is a 50-foot square on thetop of the 120, 140-foot rig.
Larry Zilliox (22:41):
If you miss that, you're in pretty deep ocean.
Frank Phillips (22:44):
Right and we didn't always make it.
Some missed and hopefully theyjust fell in the ocean,
Hopefully they didn't getwrapped up in the oil rig
structure on the way down.
But anyway, those are thethings that we did.
So to answer your question, um,I truly enjoyed all of it.
I enjoyed being pushed to excelat every item and then at one
(23:05):
point I was approached and askedif you will if there's such a
thing in the military uh, to bea pilot for the team.
Now I go back and I shared withmy senior chief at the time.
I said I don't like airplanes,I don't want to fly airplanes, I
don't mind jumping out of them,but I don't want to be a pilot.
(23:27):
He says, well, you're going tobe one, and we thank you for
that.
So I ended up becoming a pilot,for he says, well, you're going
to be one, and we thank you forthat.
So I ended up becoming a pilotfor the team actually both fixed
wing and helicopter for theteam and I enjoyed that.
But, to be honest with you, whatI enjoyed the most out of it
was being given a plan, amission, and figuring out how
(23:49):
we're going to get through itsuccessfully.
Yeah, so the planning, puttingall these pieces together.
That's what I enjoyed doing themost in that team and we had.
We were given the authority,the responsibility, to do that
for JSOC at a time.
So myself and other youngenlisted men, Marseille, gave us
(24:09):
the responsibility to say, hey,plan it out guys, brief it to
the generals and let's go.
Larry Zilliox (24:16):
Yeah.
So there comes a time where youget into Red Cell, so could you
just briefly explain to ourlisteners who aren't familiar
with that what it involved andwhat Red Cell was all about?
Frank Phillips (24:32):
So, as we know, seal Team 6 was designed to be a
counterterrorist team.
Counterterrorism is basicallybeing prepared, being capable,
able to go in and bring backthose that have been taken or
the high-value targets that needto be taken.
And Marcinko had a thought ifwe've got counterterrorism going
(24:55):
here, we should have ananti-terrorism program
complementing the two.
So Red Cell was created as aNavy security coordination team
was a legal title of thatcommand, of that command, and
the purpose of Red Cell was tohelp avoid another Iran hostage
(25:16):
situation.
So you know, our hostages weretaken but we had no intelligence
of the embassy, the structure,the surrounding areas and so on.
(25:37):
So Red Cell was created to goout and test and evaluate the
high areas of probability thatterrorists would target, so
nuclear sites, embassies, youknow, sub-grotten, connecticut,
sub-pens.
So that was the charter for that.
So we he took 13 members fromsix and we became plank owners
of Red Cell and created thisteam that went around the world
(26:02):
exercising these key facilitiesas a terrorist known in that
territory would be able to do.
We weren't allowed to use allthe high-tech equipment and
tactics that we had developed atTeam 6.
We could only use whatever wasavailable to the local group
that we were protecting against.
So we would go in and we wouldexercise that facility and they
(26:24):
would get warning.
You know, in the next month tosix weeks you know we're coming
in and we're just going to dowhat we can do to penetrate and
see what your defenses are andat the end of that each exercise
we would give them what we calla quick look.
So whatever was most prominentlack of defense, we would stay
(26:47):
behind and help them shore thatup, train their people and fix
it, basically before we get thefull report back to them.
And they would take longer toimplement the recommended
changes, did you?
Larry Zilliox (26:59):
find that in most cases the security was not good
at all.
Or was this an easy thing topenetrate, or were there
embassies and God help usnuclear facilities that were
really secure that you couldn'tpenetrate?
Frank Phillips (27:20):
What I'm going to say is it was a lot easier
than we thought.
It was a lot easier than itshould be.
Yeah, and I can sit here today,and what we represented to
these various locations that wewent to, each and every one of
those things that we applied atthose areas did in fact become
(27:40):
fact, which is a shame, becausein the mid-80s, late 80s, when
we were doing this, in the early90s and mid 90s, the things
that we exposed did in fact takeplace.
You go back to you asked meabout Morseco and always
(28:02):
preparing, always moving ahead,and honestly, in my opinion, he
was light years ahead ofeveryone else as it pertained
potential issues in problemsolving.
So we did that, I mean as anexample.
It's kind of a funny story aswell, but it's not.
In the end.
We're in Groton, connecticut,where the nuclear subpans are,
(28:27):
and that was one of ourexercises, and I was given the
task of flying an airplane intoone of the submarines that was
Pearside, as a representation offlying an aircraft into a
valuable target.
So Larry and I jumped in theplane one day, flew up, flew
down to Thames River and Ibuzzed the top of the deck of
(28:50):
the sub that was Pearside, andthen I pulled up before the
bridge and made another bombingrun, if you will, and went and
landed the plane at some pointthere.
One of the local citizens inthe community thought the plane
had crashed into the water andthe local police and so on were
(29:10):
alerted and my commander at thetime called me up and he said
hey, frank, did you fly thatmission?
I asked you to fly earliertoday.
I said yes, we did.
He said well, it's reportedthat the plane crashed in the
river.
Did you guys crash?
I had to laugh and I said no,duke, we didn't crash.
(29:33):
You're talking to me, but thoseare the examples of what we did
, which again later ended up,unfortunately, being real life.
Larry Zilliox (29:42):
Yeah, how long were you in?
When did you separate?
Frank Phillips (29:46):
So I was in 18 years and I left in the 90, in
1990, and went on to civilianlife.
Larry Zilliox (29:59):
So two years away from 20,.
Why 18 years?
Frank Phillips (30:06):
Well, if you know the history behind
Commander Marcinko, if you knowthe books and again, people
either love them or they hatethem.
I don't think there's many thatare just in between.
But from my personal experiencehe was a wonderful commander,
he created things that were notpossible by many others and he
(30:30):
was a good man.
He was a great leader and Irespected and I befriended him
for many years leader and Irespected and I befriended him
for many years.
We did an operation in Red Cellwhere DOD Department of Defense
employee was involved as asecurity officer for the base
and he was taken hostage.
(30:51):
If you will, part of theexercise, I'm the one that did
it and anyway it became alawsuit from that which
generated some legal issues forthe command and for Commander
Marcinko.
In addition to that, the Navywent after Commander Marcinko
for anything and everything theycould possibly find, in my
(31:14):
opinion because he just ruffledtoo many feathers in the process
of doing what he did.
So where I came in on this,having been part of that
operation in Red Cell, they putme under a pretty intensive
investigation for about threeyears.
Everything, bank accounts,phone calls.
I mean it was pretty intenseand at the end of it all,
(31:37):
nothing really turned up.
And when I say nothing reallyturned up, they had a potential
travel claim that statute oflimitations had expired.
I think it was in the amount of$500 in question, god.
(32:00):
Bottom line was NIS approachedme and they said we want you to
provide evidence againstCommander Marcinko for things
that he has done.
And I said, honestly, I can'tdo that because I'm not aware of
anything and I'm not going togenerate, create something, for
fear of my own well-being.
And they didn't believe that.
Anyway, the bottom line was Isaid no, I'm not going to do
that.
And then they reminded me I wasin the military and you fix
(32:23):
that Just get out of themilitary.
Well, they had a senior officercome in and give me a direct
order to cooperate.
So I did.
I cooperated with the samething that I had previously done
the same statement about thefacts of the incident.
And they didn't like thatbecause it wasn't anything new
and it wasn't going to harm thecommander.
(32:44):
So they said, fine, we're justgoing to put you out there and
if we need more, we'll come backand talk to you more.
I said so, I'm through with you.
All right, you're good withwhat I've done.
They said, yeah, but don't goanywhere.
So I learned that my EOS, myexit date, was like 60 days away
(33:06):
and it wasn't known or I thinkthey didn't assume that I would
actually exit at 18 years.
And I just said I'm done, I'vehad enough.
You know I've been a goodactually exit at 18 years.
And I just said I'm done, I'vehad enough.
You know I've been a goodsailor all these years.
I believe in what I'm doing, Ibelieve in what was done, I
believe in Commander Marcinkoand the teams and the process,
(33:27):
but I'm not going to wait aroundfor 19 years and 11 months and
29 days for you to come up withsomething for some reason
similar to what you did toMarcinko, that would eliminate
my retirement at that point.
Sure, so I said I've had enough.
Adios.
Larry Zilliox (33:44):
Well, I don't blame you.
I mean, it just was a hugerailroad job.
Frank Phillips (33:51):
It truly was and , like I said, in Team 6 and Red
Cell it wasn't a regularmilitary command in the sense of
you know the officer goes oneway and the elicit go the other
way.
We were actually enmeshed witheach other, constantly, friends,
and you know we knew eachother's business is my point, is
(34:19):
my point, and at no time did Iever see the things take place
or happen that were suggestedthat Marcinko had done.
So I'm just, I'm not a believerin that.
Larry Zilliox (34:23):
Yeah, Well, for any of our listeners who've been
in the military, they know Idon't care what your job is,
they'll find something.
You didn't fill something outright, they'll find something.
If they really want fillsomething out right, they'll
find something.
If they really want to put thescrews to you.
And there's really no way toavoid that other than separate
(34:43):
and say, look, I'm done with youand don't bother me anymore,
really.
So I wish our listeners werehere in the room with us,
because you brought some reallycool mementos of your time in
the teams, one of which is apicture of the entire team
without, like, little black barsacross their eyes or anything
(35:06):
like that, which is reallysomething.
There's also a photo of yourboat crew, and Larry is in there
, and are you still in touchwith those guys, or I know you
go to the reunions.
Frank Phillips (35:20):
Yeah, no, I'm in touch, Larry.
Larry and I stay in touch.
Well, we all do, for the mostpart, yeah, and every year we
have a reunion and we're old now, we're old, we're old guys.
I mean, 1980 was a long timeago, oh, I know.
Uh, and the reason I say thatis once I separated, you know, I
never looked back, yeah, and infact I just I didn't make
(35:40):
contact either, I just went onmy merry way.
But our 30th reunion, I didattend 30 years.
I attended and it was wonderfuland we were treated very well by
the guys you know their greenteams and new guys into that
organization, you know, escortedus and just made us feel great.
(36:03):
But when I left there I wasdepressed for probably at least
a week, because all those guysdown there now are much bigger,
they're smarter, they're harder.
I mean, these guys are monstersand they've got equipment that
we didn't even dream about backthen.
But no, we stay in touch.
I go more often now becausethings have settled down.
But the boat crew picture Ihave here, you know Larry's
(36:25):
there, we've got Donnie andBrian and Ray and Dave, and half
of them are deceased now.
Oh, wow, yeah, so it's, asMarcinko used to say, fond
memories of all this, yeah,including Marcinko.
You know he died a couple ofDecembers ago.
Larry Zilliox (36:44):
Yeah, we have a brick here at the retreat that
was placed by his family.
It was really a wonderful daywhen they came out and put a
brick down to honor him and kindof a memorial area we have
around our flagpole for thosewho are closely associated with
(37:05):
the retreat no longer with us.
The other thing you have whichI find fascinating is all your
ID cards and of course, I'venever seen you with a beard.
That looks pretty crazy whenyou look at it.
When you look at the teampicture, what do you miss the
most?
Frank Phillips (37:24):
Well, I think you said it's the team, Every
one of those members there,every one of the 80 of us
created a bond that will never,ever be broken.
And it didn't matter.
If I mean in the book you'retalking about Rogue Warrior, you
know, I was yelled at the firstday we mustered, you know, by
Marcinko, because I was wearinga SEAL Team 1 t-shirt in a new
(37:48):
command that was supposed to be,you know, Anyway, but every one
of those men, they're ourbrothers and truly the
brotherhood.
The funny things that havehappened, the sad things that
have happened, just lifetogether.
And the point I was getting,you know, Marcenco and I and
(38:08):
many of us have remained friends, even though we didn't all
retire together or all moveforward in professional areas in
our lives.
But we remain friends to thisday and beyond is what I'll tell
you.
But yeah, I miss the guys, thetribe, you got it.
Larry Zilliox (38:25):
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm still in touch with
guys and women that I servedwith and talk to them regularly,
because it's not a connectionyou find in the civilian world.
You can sometimes come close.
In the civilian world we tend totake oh, they're kind of like
our second family, but in themilitary they're like our first
(38:47):
family because you're there andyou're with people that you know
have your back no matter whatand you're willing to have their
back no matter what.
And it is tribe.
It's probably the thing thatmost veterans miss the most and
(39:09):
have the most trouble dealingwith really is they find
themselves on a journey or asearch to recreate it or find it
in the civilian world, and whenit's not attainable, it can
lead to problems in their lifefor sure, and I think it's just
(39:29):
wonderful that you got toexperience a once
inin-a-lifetime thing, as yousaid.
But I will tell our listenersthat one of the things Frank
would probably be the lastperson in the world to tell you
is that since his time in theteams, he has spent most of his
(39:51):
civilian career and life sharingknowledge and helping others
not only veterans but lawenforcement and government of
individuals and training andmaking sure that they have
skills that help them and helpus as a country.
(40:13):
You know, I know I reallyappreciate that you could have
went off and could have had areally miserable life as an
accountant or a pilot orsomething but you chose to have
a career and create a businessin which you help the right
people that then help thecommunity and are the ones that
(40:37):
stand in the breach.
Those are the ones that protectus that we don't even really
know about.
That's something.
Just to be able to have thatknowledge and to be willing to
share it with others is reallyphenomenal.
So I know I really appreciatethat, and I'm sure all of our
listeners do as well, as we kindof wrap up here what's the one
(41:00):
thing you want our listeners toknow?
That might not be in the book,might not be in Rogue One, but,
based on your personalexperience, what's the one thing
you want them to know aboutCommander Marcinko?
Frank Phillips (41:15):
Well, he was a visionary and he did it for us,
not for him.
It was never about him.
A lot of people don't believethat, but I know him and it
wasn't about him.
It was about how he could makeus better and in turn us protect
our country better and thwartthe evils that are out there.
(41:36):
That's what he lived for and wespent a lot of time together
before his passing, and he wasalready designing the space
warrior process.
What are we going to do fromspace and for the rest of us?
The last thing on our minds.
But he was working forward, asalways.
(41:58):
And again, it wasn't for him,it was for our country and for
our warriors.
And that's how I remember himand that's what I would hope
others remember him as.
Larry Zilliox (42:09):
Yeah for sure.
Well, listen, thank you so muchfor coming sitting down with us
for this 100th episode.
I'm glad you're willing to makeyourself available to us and
we'll just kind of book you nowfor our 200th episode.
I think that'd be great.
That will be more of a videoone soon, but thanks so much.
(42:35):
I really appreciate you joiningus.
Frank Phillips (42:37):
Well, larry, I want to thank you and I want to
thank the Willing Warriors forall you're doing, and you asked
me a key question what do I missfrom these days?
And that's what we all miss,and you're providing.
The Willing Warriors areproviding an opportunity for our
brothers and sisters to cometogether again and share their
(42:58):
stories and their experiencesamongst those that understand
those.
So well done to you and theorganization and, as you know,
we're supporters.
Larry Zilliox (43:07):
Oh yeah, you guys are big supporters and we
really appreciate that, not onlypersonally, but your business
supports us and, yeah, we can'tthank you enough for that.
Really really appreciate thesupport.
Frank Phillips (43:19):
So, yeah, thank you so much, but just keep doing
what you're doing because it'sworking and we're appreciative,
so thank you.
Larry Zilliox (43:26):
Yeah, well for our listeners.
We'll have another episode nextMonday morning.
If you have any questions orsuggestions, you can reach us at
podcast at willingwarriorsorg.
Until then, thanks forlistening.
Good morning.
I'm your host, larry Ziliox,Director of Culinary Services
here at the Warrior Retreat atBull Run, and thanks to
everybody joining us today forour 100th episode.
We're pretty excited about it.
We have a very special guestwith us today and that's Frank
Phillips, a longtime familyfriend of ours, who is an
(00:22):
original SEAL Team 6 member.
A couple months ago over dinnerhe grudgingly agreed to come on
to be our guest for the 100thepisode.
So, frank, welcome to thepodcast.
We're really excited to haveyou here.
Frank Phillips (00:37):
Well, thank you, Larry, and congratulations on
your 100th podcast session.
Not sure why you asked me, butI'm honored to be honest with
you, so thank you.
Larry Zilliox (00:46):
Well, I was certain you would make an
awesome guest because there'ssuch a mystique around SEAL Team
6 and you're a plank owner,which, if you would just take a
minute to describe to ourlisteners what it means when
they hear plank owner as a Navyterm related to different units-
(01:08):
Well, plank owner, as itpertains in a Navy, is basically
when they would build thewooden ships and so on, the
first sailors that were assignedto that ship, that command, if
you will, actually received apiece of a plank that the ship
was built out of.
Frank Phillips (01:23):
hence the term plank owner.
Nowadays they're steel shipsand we don't get to take a piece
of that home with us, but we dohave the honor of being the
original members, foundingmembers, of that organization or
that command.
Larry Zilliox (01:36):
That would mean in 1980, commander Marchenko
chose you as one of a largegroup of original SEAL Team 6
members and that is now bestowedon everybody who joined the
unit at that time.
Is that right?
Frank Phillips (01:53):
That is correct.
Back then, Commander Marcinkowent throughout the SEAL Teams
and the UDTs and chose 80 men tobegin the new command, SEAL
Team 6.
And I was fortunate enough tobe chosen as one of those 80 men
.
Larry Zilliox (02:10):
So we'll talk a little bit about that process in
which you get chosen to be partof such a unique special unit.
But let's start with a littlebit about how you came to join
the Navy and what your initialtraining was like.
So that would be UDT and thenBUDS and then into one of the
(02:33):
SEAL teams.
So why did you join the Navy?
Frank Phillips (02:37):
Well, I was a young, restless young man that
thought he could do more outsideof my age group at the time.
My parents weren't content withthat, so we had a lot of home
struggles and I figured I wasmuch older and more prepared to
go into the world than theythought I was.
So I got in.
A lot of trouble is the bottomline.
(02:57):
I was a big sports enthusiast.
All the high school sports Iparticipated in, and I just
wanted to be a warrior, so tospeak.
I didn't even know about theSEAL teams or the UDTs at the
time, but I did know I wanted tojoin the Navy, and I wanted to
do it sooner than later.
(03:18):
I wasn't a big fan of theschool system.
I seemed to.
The sports I enjoyed, but theacademics I got through, but I
didn't want to spend a whole lotof time in school.
I wanted to get out in theworld and do something.
So at age 17, I basicallydropped out, based on the
trouble I was getting into withthe family and the community,
(03:41):
and joined the Navy.
Originally, I didn't join tojoin the SEAL teams, because I
did not know they existed.
While in boot camp, though, Isaw a wonderful film, men with
Green Faces, which was a Vietnamera recruiting film for SEALs
and frogmen, and at that point Iwanted to do that.
I went to the recruiters and Isaid I'd like to go there.
(04:05):
They said you don't have achance of making it, so please
choose five other items that youwant to excel at.
A little backstory on that.
Growing up I was not a big fanof airplanes, but my brother, 17
months younger than me, lovedairplanes, built every model of
airplane there was and I wouldbreak it, he would build it, I
(04:27):
would break it and I'd get introuble.
Anyway, the bottom line to thatis in the Navy I chose four
trades that were allconstruction trades bulldozer
operator, carpenter and I ranout of a fifth choice and a Navy
recruiter at the time said andI ran out of a fifth choice and
a Navy recruiter at the timesaid why don't you consider
(04:47):
being a jet mechanic?
And I said no way, I don't likeairplanes, I don't want
anything to do with them, Idon't want to choose that.
He said well, put it down, youwon't get it anyway.
That's your fifth choice.
Needless to say, I ended upbecoming a jet engine mechanic
out of boot camp.
I didn't make it to SEALtraining at that time Was
assigned to a squadron at NASNorth Highland, which is just
(05:11):
north of the BUDS BasicUnderwater Demolition SEAL
training unit.
So I'd have to pass through theunit every day, going to and
from work.
As an aviation person.
That I wasn't pleased about,and then in the evenings I lived
right on the beach.
I grew up in Los Angeles and Igrew up surfing a lot.
So after work I'd hit the beach, I'd surf in the morning, I'd
(05:34):
surf before work, and one dayout there a couple of guys that
I got to know that were surfingas well happened to be frogmen
and seals.
So they said, hey, you're outhere all the time.
It appears you like the water.
You know why don't you try outfor the teams?
And I said, well, I did onceand they told me I'd never make
(05:55):
it.
So I moved on.
They said, well, you don't knowunless you try.
So I thought about it.
I said, yep, I'm going to giveit a shot.
I went into my commandingofficer Monday morning and I
requested the opportunity to goto SEAL training and he just
flat denied it.
And the reason was was it was abrand new aircraft coming to
(06:16):
the squadron.
I was one of the six jet enginemechanics that had been trained
specifically on this aircraft.
So the Navy had alreadyinvested in me to do this
process and they weren't goingto cut me loose, at least for
four years, until I helped trainother mechanics, and at that
time I had a uncle-in-law in thePentagon, a captain, navy
(06:36):
captain.
So that was Monday.
I got rejected from mycommanding officer.
I went home and I dialed thetelephone up.
Officer.
I went home and I dialed thetelephone up.
I said hey, captain, so-and-so.
I said I'd really like to dothis in the Navy, but I've been
denied the opportunity.
Is there anything that youpossibly could do?
And he said I'm not sure I can,but we'll see.
(06:58):
That same Friday I went into mycommand and as soon as I
reported to work I was called tothe captain's office and I was
chewed out royally.
He had a yeah, it was, it was atough uh 15 minutes in front of
him and basically the bottomline was he said I don't know
who.
You know who you think you are,but you do have orders to seal
(07:20):
training and when you fail andwill fail, young man, you're
coming right back to my squadronand you'll pay the price.
Anyway, I said aye, aye,captain, and out I went and I
reported to SEAL training orBUDS training and once I
graduated from that I did goback to the squadron and I
actually went and visited myformer commanding officer and I
(07:42):
thanked him for the motivation,went and visited my former
commanding officer and I thankedhim for the motivation and he
wished me well and was glad thatI did make it.
So no hard feelings.
In the end, what year?
was that that was 1975.
Wow, okay, and I joined theNavy in 1973.
Right.
Larry Zilliox (08:02):
Okay.
Frank Phillips (08:25):
So yeah, and I'll be honest with you, there
are times it's spiritual, quitehonestly, but it takes all of
that and it takes all of thatand they purposely put you
through those various realms ofelements to find out who you
really are, because, as we know,when we're alone out there
doing something later in lifeyou need to call on all those
(08:48):
resources.
The neat thing was I not onlywent through BUDS, but
eventually I became a BUDSinstructor, so I got to see it
from both sides.
Larry Zilliox (08:59):
Wow, and so you're through BUDS and you get
assigned to a team.
What team did you go tooriginally?
Frank Phillips (09:04):
Well, I went to UDT 11, Underwater Demolition
Team 11, which was on the WestCoast Right.
Larry Zilliox (09:09):
Okay At San Diego .
Frank Phillips (09:10):
Yes, Colorado yeah.
Larry Zilliox (09:12):
How long?
Frank Phillips (09:12):
were you there.
I was in UDT 11, probably 18months.
What I did there was, as soonas I graduated BUDS, they put me
in a seagoing platoon.
So I went from Buzz, I wentthrough jump school, army jump
school and then immediately intowhat they call an ORE
operational readiness evaluation.
(09:33):
The platoon was alreadytogether and there was four of
us, as they call FNGs, friendlynew guys.
Okay, in this platoon of allVietnam veterans, I mean heroes,
good men.
So we were the four newbies andas soon as I got back from jump
school, they threw me in thisoperational readiness exercise
(09:56):
to where we had to do all thethings that we were going to do
on our deployment and pass sothat we could go together as a
platoon.
So we got thrown right intothis mix of these senior, senior
vets, well-respected men.
So that was wonderful for mebecause I learned a whole lot.
But we got abused throughoutthat platoon as well.
(10:18):
I bet yeah, but it was a goodcruise.
Larry Zilliox (10:22):
And so were you an instructor at the time that
you were contacted about comingon board with SEAL Team 6, or
were you in a team?
Frank Phillips (10:32):
No, I was actually at Buzz as an
instructor when CommanderMarcinko went out and started
the interviews.
That is correct, yeah.
Larry Zilliox (10:40):
Had you served with him in any capacity prior
to that, or how did he becomeaware of you and how did it come
up that you were a prospect forthe team?
Frank Phillips (10:51):
So what happened after Team 11, I went back to
SEAL Team 2 on the East Coastand there I was in a platoon and
we had some new guys come inand in our platoon a new
teammate came in by the name ofLarry, and Larry was a former
Marine and got out of theMarines, went into the SEALs,
(11:14):
went through BUDS, graduated andwas a new teammate in SEAL Team
2 in our deploying platoon atthe time and I was designated as
the ordnance department rep forour platoon and I needed to
have someone assist me.
So when I was going through themanpower selections we had
(11:34):
Larry was a Marine, figured heknew weapons well I asked to
have him as my assistantordnance teammate and that was
approved.
He became my assistant.
We became really close friendsthroughout our deployments out
of SEAL Team 2.
And then at some point in SEALTeam 2, I had my father passed
(11:55):
away and I came back for hisfuneral.
At the time I had athree-year-old daughter who was
having some medical issues andwe took her to the Naval
Hospital and found out shedidn't have long to live either.
So the Navy was kind enough,generous enough, asked me what
did I want to do in that periodof time we had left with her.
(12:17):
So I asked to be transferred tothe West Coast where I grew up
with my family, to SEAL Team 1,and allow her to pass and then,
you know, remain at SEAL Team 1.
So Larry and I became veryclose friends in that deployment
and time we spent together inTeam 2.
(12:38):
Once I went to the West Coastand my daughter passed and I got
back into SEAL Team 1.
I made a deployment with them.
Larry and I stayed in contact.
But then when I came back fromthe deployment to do shore duty,
I went to the training centerBUDS, and Larry called me up one
(12:58):
night and he said I'm nottalking to you, but if you get a
request to interview withCommander Marcinko, who used to
be CEO of SEAL Team 2, take it.
So that's everything we've everdreamed about doing as warriors
in the teams and this is anopportunity to be on the front
(13:18):
line in helping and developingthat process.
So I said don't ask questions,just say yes and go, okay.
Larry Zilliox (13:25):
So for those of our listeners who have read the
commander's book Rogue One,you'll know Frank and Larry to
be the Gold Dust Twins and it'sa fascinating book and I
encourage everybody to read itbecause it's really interesting
the whole way that the commanderstood up the team and fought
(13:48):
for everything that you guysused and and what was it like
you, having been in SEAL Team 2on the East Coast, then to 1 and
then now into 6, whicheverything that I read about it
in in the commander's book andany place else it?
It was just light years aheadof the other teams as far as
(14:11):
budget, as far as equipment, asfar as the ability to develop
your own equipment and figureout what works best for you and
not having to work withoff-the-shelf kind of stuff,
switching over to weapons madenot by the United States, just
(14:31):
things that other units justdreamed about.
So all of a sudden it wasreally different for you.
What did you think about that?
Frank Phillips (14:40):
Well, let me say , first and foremost, it was
incredible.
I mean to sum it all up, it wasjust an incredible experience,
once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,and what I want to say is that
the men are the men across theboard, and Commander Marcinko
decided to choose who he chose.
For whatever reasons and youknow that's a whole other story
(15:03):
he chose, you know, seasonedvets for purposes.
He chose non-combat vets forother purposes and he chose
rogues, if you will, forpurposes of going beyond what is
allowed.
But what he did that reallyhelped get us light years ahead,
(15:25):
if you will, was the equipmentbeing able to acquire or being
able to develop and testequipment that wasn't on the
shelf, that wasn't in themilitary system.
We went outside, basically forthe experts, worldwide experts
to help us develop, design andutilize equipment for new
(15:45):
tactics and techniques that wewere developing as well,
techniques that we weredeveloping as well.
So I think he provided thepurse and we provided the wants.
Hey, if we could have this orif we could do that, you know we
could accomplish so-and-so.
And he'd say, well, do it.
And he relied, like I said,there was 80 men to start with
(16:08):
and every one of us had triple,quadruple duties to go out and
find something that was outsidethe norm.
How do we perfect this, how dowe make you know, how do we go
faster, how do we go deeper, howdo we go farther, harder, and
so on.
And I think that the people thathe selected had that mindset,
(16:30):
which is what helped propel usthrough developing these new
things.
In fact, somewhere in ouroriginal designation I think we
were kind of a T&E outfit testand evaluate outfit.
I think that's how he helpedsell some of the things he sold.
You know, you guys build it,we'll break it and then we'll
help you make it better, andthat's what we did.
You know, we were instrumentalin the Ram Air parachutes for
(16:54):
the military across the board.
They weren't using squareparachutes at the time and we
started using those.
We actually began the processby towing each other behind a
Jeep, like flying a kite at 500feet of rope.
You know, wow, at 500 feet ofrope, you know Wow.
That was interesting and we hadsome failures on that as well,
(17:17):
but that's how we did things.
We just figured it out andtried it and made it work.
Larry Zilliox (17:24):
And if it didn't work we moved on to the next.
So I also got the sense, inreading the book too, that
almost everything that thecommander did was done with sort
of training in mind, and eventhe simplest things like we're
going from point A to point B,we're leaving Little Creek and
we're going to Louisiana, butwe're going to make the trip to
(17:45):
Louisiana.
Training in the sense of how wetransport, how we look, how we
operate as groups of guystraveling one way.
And I know when you deployedoverseas sometimes some would
fly, some would take the trainfrom an operational security
(18:05):
standpoint, I understand thatyou don't travel as a group of
80 guys it would be prettyobvious what was going on, but
it seemed like everything he didhe was so focused, laser
focused on how can I use thistime and this, what we're about
to do, as training to makethings better for the team?
(18:26):
Do you get the sense that?
Was there ever any overtraining?
Was there ever anything?
Can't we just get in the carand drive?
Frank Phillips (18:34):
He put us at such a fast pace from day one,
day one, the initial muster andformation of the team.
Once we checked in, everybodylooked at each other.
We spent the next seven, eightweeks and almost a 24-hour a day
, six to seven days a week,training just to get up to speed
(18:58):
, to operate according to him.
Like I said, he multitasked allof us with multiple things, but
every moment of every day wasintentional.
It really was.
We were divided into two teams.
Each team had six to eight boatcrews of six to eight men
(19:19):
apiece and that would be ourelements, how we function.
And, yes, when we traveled, itwas always operational and back
then, you know, terrorism was abig event.
So we all had cover stories, ifyou will.
We all had different names thatwe were asked to use when it
(19:39):
was appropriate times.
So, wherever we were, you hadto be in that element and ready
to go.
As an example, we got throughthis seven to eight weeks of
extremely intensive training andwe all had actually conics
boxes per boat crew.
That was set up with ouroperational gear loadout.
So at any given time we had anX number of hours, if you will,
(20:03):
to be recalled, pack up and beon the tarmac ready to go.
So all of us had a conics box,wooden cubicles in it, so you
would have your weaponsequipment, you would have your
parachuted, whatever was allstaged there.
So, whatever the operation was,you'd be called in gather it up
(20:24):
, and off you go.
So we got through the seven oreight weeks of intensive
training and everybody wasextremely exhausted.
I mean, we were beat down tonothing and we knew it was the
index.
So everybody decided we'regoing to have a night on the
town.
So the entire team blue team,gold team finished training and
off we went downtown to thelocal local clubs and bars and
(20:48):
we just got smashed, okay.
And about 3 o'clock thatmorning he held a recall,
knowing what we were doing.
Some people didn't even make it, some fell asleep under their
cars trying to get—anyway, itwas crazy.
But he made a point.
He said if you're going to bepart of this organization, if
(21:10):
you're going to do the things wewant you to do and the things
that you want to do, you betterbe ready, first and foremost, to
have your priorities right.
Yeah, don't ever, don't, everlet it happen again.
Wow.
Larry Zilliox (21:20):
Wow, that was an eye opener.
Yeah, I can't imagine Thinkingback to your time in there.
What did you like best aboutwhat you did Shooting, blowing
stuff up, diving parachuting.
Did you have a favoriteactivity that you were excited
(21:40):
about when it came time to dothat?
Frank Phillips (21:43):
So I enjoyed, larry, all of it, to be honest
with you, and it was nicebecause it wasn't a routine but
I did, I truly enjoyed all of it.
But I'm going to share with youand it was nice because it
wasn't a routine, but I did, Itruly enjoyed all of it.
But I'm going to share with youand I'm going to go back to the
beginning of all this to make apoint here.
But we ended up being our bowcrew within Blue Team, ended up
(22:04):
being the Air Ops team Becauseour skill sets with the people
we had in our crew Larry willdeny this because he hated
jumping and he got stuck in theair ops boat crew, but anyway.
So we helped develop and trainthe guys with the new free fall
equipment and so on, and wewould test it, throwing boats
(22:27):
out of the airplane withparachutes and us following it,
jumping on oil rigs and landingon the helicopter platform,
which is a 50-foot square on thetop of the 120, 140-foot rig.
Larry Zilliox (22:41):
If you miss that, you're in pretty deep ocean.
Frank Phillips (22:44):
Right and we didn't always make it.
Some missed and hopefully theyjust fell in the ocean,
Hopefully they didn't getwrapped up in the oil rig
structure on the way down.
But anyway, those are thethings that we did.
So to answer your question, um,I truly enjoyed all of it.
I enjoyed being pushed to excelat every item and then at one
(23:05):
point I was approached and askedif you will if there's such a
thing in the military uh, to bea pilot for the team.
Now I go back and I shared withmy senior chief at the time.
I said I don't like airplanes,I don't want to fly airplanes, I
don't mind jumping out of them,but I don't want to be a pilot.
(23:27):
He says, well, you're going tobe one, and we thank you for
that.
So I ended up becoming a pilot,for he says, well, you're going
to be one, and we thank you forthat.
So I ended up becoming a pilotfor the team actually both fixed
wing and helicopter for theteam and I enjoyed that.
But, to be honest with you, whatI enjoyed the most out of it
was being given a plan, amission, and figuring out how
(23:49):
we're going to get through itsuccessfully.
Yeah, so the planning, puttingall these pieces together.
That's what I enjoyed doing themost in that team and we had.
We were given the authority,the responsibility, to do that
for JSOC at a time.
So myself and other youngenlisted men, Marseille, gave us
(24:09):
the responsibility to say, hey,plan it out guys, brief it to
the generals and let's go.
Larry Zilliox (24:16):
Yeah.
So there comes a time where youget into Red Cell, so could you
just briefly explain to ourlisteners who aren't familiar
with that what it involved andwhat Red Cell was all about?
Frank Phillips (24:32):
So, as we know, seal Team 6 was designed to be a
counterterrorist team.
Counterterrorism is basicallybeing prepared, being capable,
able to go in and bring backthose that have been taken or
the high-value targets that needto be taken.
And Marcinko had a thought ifwe've got counterterrorism going
(24:55):
here, we should have ananti-terrorism program
complementing the two.
So Red Cell was created as aNavy security coordination team
was a legal title of thatcommand, of that command, and
the purpose of Red Cell was tohelp avoid another Iran hostage
(25:16):
situation.
So you know, our hostages weretaken but we had no intelligence
of the embassy, the structure,the surrounding areas and so on.
(25:37):
So Red Cell was created to goout and test and evaluate the
high areas of probability thatterrorists would target, so
nuclear sites, embassies, youknow, sub-grotten, connecticut,
sub-pens.
So that was the charter for that.
So we he took 13 members fromsix and we became plank owners
of Red Cell and created thisteam that went around the world
(26:02):
exercising these key facilitiesas a terrorist known in that
territory would be able to do.
We weren't allowed to use allthe high-tech equipment and
tactics that we had developed atTeam 6.
We could only use whatever wasavailable to the local group
that we were protecting against.
So we would go in and we wouldexercise that facility and they
(26:24):
would get warning.
You know, in the next month tosix weeks you know we're coming
in and we're just going to dowhat we can do to penetrate and
see what your defenses are andat the end of that each exercise
we would give them what we calla quick look.
So whatever was most prominentlack of defense, we would stay
(26:47):
behind and help them shore thatup, train their people and fix
it, basically before we get thefull report back to them.
And they would take longer toimplement the recommended
changes, did you?
Larry Zilliox (26:59):
find that in most cases the security was not good
at all.
Or was this an easy thing topenetrate, or were there
embassies and God help usnuclear facilities that were
really secure that you couldn'tpenetrate?
Frank Phillips (27:20):
What I'm going to say is it was a lot easier
than we thought.
It was a lot easier than itshould be.
Yeah, and I can sit here today,and what we represented to
these various locations that wewent to, each and every one of
those things that we applied atthose areas did in fact become
(27:40):
fact, which is a shame, becausein the mid-80s, late 80s, when
we were doing this, in the early90s and mid 90s, the things
that we exposed did in fact takeplace.
You go back to you asked meabout Morseco and always
(28:02):
preparing, always moving ahead,and honestly, in my opinion, he
was light years ahead ofeveryone else as it pertained
potential issues in problemsolving.
So we did that, I mean as anexample.
It's kind of a funny story aswell, but it's not.
In the end.
We're in Groton, connecticut,where the nuclear subpans are,
(28:27):
and that was one of ourexercises, and I was given the
task of flying an airplane intoone of the submarines that was
Pearside, as a representation offlying an aircraft into a
valuable target.
So Larry and I jumped in theplane one day, flew up, flew
down to Thames River and Ibuzzed the top of the deck of
(28:50):
the sub that was Pearside, andthen I pulled up before the
bridge and made another bombingrun, if you will, and went and
landed the plane at some pointthere.
One of the local citizens inthe community thought the plane
had crashed into the water andthe local police and so on were
(29:10):
alerted and my commander at thetime called me up and he said
hey, frank, did you fly thatmission?
I asked you to fly earliertoday.
I said yes, we did.
He said well, it's reportedthat the plane crashed in the
river.
Did you guys crash?
I had to laugh and I said no,duke, we didn't crash.
(29:33):
You're talking to me, but thoseare the examples of what we did
, which again later ended up,unfortunately, being real life.
Larry Zilliox (29:42):
Yeah, how long were you in?
When did you separate?
Frank Phillips (29:46):
So I was in 18 years and I left in the 90, in
1990, and went on to civilianlife.
Larry Zilliox (29:59):
So two years away from 20,.
Why 18 years?
Frank Phillips (30:06):
Well, if you know the history behind
Commander Marcinko, if you knowthe books and again, people
either love them or they hatethem.
I don't think there's many thatare just in between.
But from my personal experiencehe was a wonderful commander,
he created things that were notpossible by many others and he
(30:30):
was a good man.
He was a great leader and Irespected and I befriended him
for many years leader and Irespected and I befriended him
for many years.
We did an operation in Red Cellwhere DOD Department of Defense
employee was involved as asecurity officer for the base
and he was taken hostage.
(30:51):
If you will, part of theexercise, I'm the one that did
it and anyway it became alawsuit from that which
generated some legal issues forthe command and for Commander
Marcinko.
In addition to that, the Navywent after Commander Marcinko
for anything and everything theycould possibly find, in my
(31:14):
opinion because he just ruffledtoo many feathers in the process
of doing what he did.
So where I came in on this,having been part of that
operation in Red Cell, they putme under a pretty intensive
investigation for about threeyears.
Everything, bank accounts,phone calls.
I mean it was pretty intenseand at the end of it all,
(31:37):
nothing really turned up.
And when I say nothing reallyturned up, they had a potential
travel claim that statute oflimitations had expired.
I think it was in the amount of$500 in question, god.
(32:00):
Bottom line was NIS approachedme and they said we want you to
provide evidence againstCommander Marcinko for things
that he has done.
And I said, honestly, I can'tdo that because I'm not aware of
anything and I'm not going togenerate, create something, for
fear of my own well-being.
And they didn't believe that.
Anyway, the bottom line was Isaid no, I'm not going to do
that.
And then they reminded me I wasin the military and you fix
(32:23):
that Just get out of themilitary.
Well, they had a senior officercome in and give me a direct
order to cooperate.
So I did.
I cooperated with the samething that I had previously done
the same statement about thefacts of the incident.
And they didn't like thatbecause it wasn't anything new
and it wasn't going to harm thecommander.
(32:44):
So they said, fine, we're justgoing to put you out there and
if we need more, we'll come backand talk to you more.
I said so, I'm through with you.
All right, you're good withwhat I've done.
They said, yeah, but don't goanywhere.
So I learned that my EOS, myexit date, was like 60 days away
(33:06):
and it wasn't known or I thinkthey didn't assume that I would
actually exit at 18 years.
And I just said I'm done, I'vehad enough.
You know I've been a goodactually exit at 18 years.
And I just said I'm done, I'vehad enough.
You know I've been a goodsailor all these years.
I believe in what I'm doing, Ibelieve in what was done, I
believe in Commander Marcinkoand the teams and the process,
(33:27):
but I'm not going to wait aroundfor 19 years and 11 months and
29 days for you to come up withsomething for some reason
similar to what you did toMarcinko, that would eliminate
my retirement at that point.
Sure, so I said I've had enough.
Adios.
Larry Zilliox (33:44):
Well, I don't blame you.
I mean, it just was a hugerailroad job.
Frank Phillips (33:51):
It truly was and , like I said, in Team 6 and Red
Cell it wasn't a regularmilitary command in the sense of
you know the officer goes oneway and the elicit go the other
way.
We were actually enmeshed witheach other, constantly, friends,
and you know we knew eachother's business is my point, is
(34:19):
my point, and at no time did Iever see the things take place
or happen that were suggestedthat Marcinko had done.
So I'm just, I'm not a believerin that.
Larry Zilliox (34:23):
Yeah, Well, for any of our listeners who've been
in the military, they know Idon't care what your job is,
they'll find something.
You didn't fill something outright, they'll find something.
If they really want fillsomething out right, they'll
find something.
If they really want to put thescrews to you.
And there's really no way toavoid that other than separate
(34:43):
and say, look, I'm done with youand don't bother me anymore,
really.
So I wish our listeners werehere in the room with us,
because you brought some reallycool mementos of your time in
the teams, one of which is apicture of the entire team
without, like, little black barsacross their eyes or anything
(35:06):
like that, which is reallysomething.
There's also a photo of yourboat crew, and Larry is in there
, and are you still in touchwith those guys, or I know you
go to the reunions.
Frank Phillips (35:20):
Yeah, no, I'm in touch, Larry.
Larry and I stay in touch.
Well, we all do, for the mostpart, yeah, and every year we
have a reunion and we're old now, we're old, we're old guys.
I mean, 1980 was a long timeago, oh, I know.
Uh, and the reason I say thatis once I separated, you know, I
never looked back, yeah, and infact I just I didn't make
(35:40):
contact either, I just went onmy merry way.
But our 30th reunion, I didattend 30 years.
I attended and it was wonderfuland we were treated very well by
the guys you know their greenteams and new guys into that
organization, you know, escortedus and just made us feel great.
(36:03):
But when I left there I wasdepressed for probably at least
a week, because all those guysdown there now are much bigger,
they're smarter, they're harder.
I mean, these guys are monstersand they've got equipment that
we didn't even dream about backthen.
But no, we stay in touch.
I go more often now becausethings have settled down.
But the boat crew picture Ihave here, you know Larry's
(36:25):
there, we've got Donnie andBrian and Ray and Dave, and half
of them are deceased now.
Oh, wow, yeah, so it's, asMarcinko used to say, fond
memories of all this, yeah,including Marcinko.
You know he died a couple ofDecembers ago.
Larry Zilliox (36:44):
Yeah, we have a brick here at the retreat that
was placed by his family.
It was really a wonderful daywhen they came out and put a
brick down to honor him and kindof a memorial area we have
around our flagpole for thosewho are closely associated with
(37:05):
the retreat no longer with us.
The other thing you have whichI find fascinating is all your
ID cards and of course, I'venever seen you with a beard.
That looks pretty crazy whenyou look at it.
When you look at the teampicture, what do you miss the
most?
Frank Phillips (37:24):
Well, I think you said it's the team, Every
one of those members there,every one of the 80 of us
created a bond that will never,ever be broken.
And it didn't matter.
If I mean in the book you'retalking about Rogue Warrior, you
know, I was yelled at the firstday we mustered, you know, by
Marcinko, because I was wearinga SEAL Team 1 t-shirt in a new
(37:48):
command that was supposed to be,you know, Anyway, but every one
of those men, they're ourbrothers and truly the
brotherhood.
The funny things that havehappened, the sad things that
have happened, just lifetogether.
And the point I was getting,you know, Marcenco and I and
(38:08):
many of us have remained friends, even though we didn't all
retire together or all moveforward in professional areas in
our lives.
But we remain friends to thisday and beyond is what I'll tell
you.
But yeah, I miss the guys, thetribe, you got it.
Larry Zilliox (38:25):
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm still in touch with
guys and women that I servedwith and talk to them regularly,
because it's not a connectionyou find in the civilian world.
You can sometimes come close.
In the civilian world we tend totake oh, they're kind of like
our second family, but in themilitary they're like our first
(38:47):
family because you're there andyou're with people that you know
have your back no matter whatand you're willing to have their
back no matter what.
And it is tribe.
It's probably the thing thatmost veterans miss the most and
(39:09):
have the most trouble dealingwith really is they find
themselves on a journey or asearch to recreate it or find it
in the civilian world, and whenit's not attainable, it can
lead to problems in their lifefor sure, and I think it's just
(39:29):
wonderful that you got toexperience a once
inin-a-lifetime thing, as yousaid.
But I will tell our listenersthat one of the things Frank
would probably be the lastperson in the world to tell you
is that since his time in theteams, he has spent most of his
(39:51):
civilian career and life sharingknowledge and helping others
not only veterans but lawenforcement and government of
individuals and training andmaking sure that they have
skills that help them and helpus as a country.
(40:13):
You know, I know I reallyappreciate that you could have
went off and could have had areally miserable life as an
accountant or a pilot orsomething but you chose to have
a career and create a businessin which you help the right
people that then help thecommunity and are the ones that
(40:37):
stand in the breach.
Those are the ones that protectus that we don't even really
know about.
That's something.
Just to be able to have thatknowledge and to be willing to
share it with others is reallyphenomenal.
So I know I really appreciatethat, and I'm sure all of our
listeners do as well, as we kindof wrap up here what's the one
(41:00):
thing you want our listeners toknow?
That might not be in the book,might not be in Rogue One, but,
based on your personalexperience, what's the one thing
you want them to know aboutCommander Marcinko?
Frank Phillips (41:15):
Well, he was a visionary and he did it for us,
not for him.
It was never about him.
A lot of people don't believethat, but I know him and it
wasn't about him.
It was about how he could makeus better and in turn us protect
our country better and thwartthe evils that are out there.
(41:36):
That's what he lived for and wespent a lot of time together
before his passing, and he wasalready designing the space
warrior process.
What are we going to do fromspace and for the rest of us?
The last thing on our minds.
But he was working forward, asalways.
(41:58):
And again, it wasn't for him,it was for our country and for
our warriors.
And that's how I remember himand that's what I would hope
others remember him as.
Larry Zilliox (42:09):
Yeah for sure.
Well, listen, thank you so muchfor coming sitting down with us
for this 100th episode.
I'm glad you're willing to makeyourself available to us and
we'll just kind of book you nowfor our 200th episode.
I think that'd be great.
That will be more of a videoone soon, but thanks so much.
(42:35):
I really appreciate you joiningus.
Frank Phillips (42:37):
Well, larry, I want to thank you and I want to
thank the Willing Warriors forall you're doing, and you asked
me a key question what do I missfrom these days?
And that's what we all miss,and you're providing.
The Willing Warriors areproviding an opportunity for our
brothers and sisters to cometogether again and share their
(42:58):
stories and their experiencesamongst those that understand
those.
So well done to you and theorganization and, as you know,
we're supporters.
Larry Zilliox (43:07):
Oh yeah, you guys are big supporters and we
really appreciate that, not onlypersonally, but your business
supports us and, yeah, we can'tthank you enough for that.
Really really appreciate thesupport.
Frank Phillips (43:19):
So, yeah, thank you so much, but just keep doing
what you're doing because it'sworking and we're appreciative,
so thank you.
Larry Zilliox (43:26):
Yeah, well for our listeners.
We'll have another episode nextMonday morning.
If you have any questions orsuggestions, you can reach us at
podcast at willingwarriorsorg.
Until then, thanks forlistening.
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