November 10, 2025 • 31 mins
Moral injury isn’t a buzzword or a rebrand of Post Traumatic Stress. It’s what happens when military service members face actions and events that violate their core values, or when the institutions and leaders they trusted fail them. We sit down with Air Force Reserve chaplain and Moral Injury Support Network for Servicewomen (MISNS) board member Lindsay Moser to unpack why women in uniform are uniquely vulnerable to moral injury, how military sexual trauma and institutional betrayal compound the harm, and what real, practical healing looks like when chaplains, clinicians, social workers, and commanders work together.
We walk through concrete distinctions between fear-based PTS and value-based moral injury, highlighting why standard PTS protocols often miss grief, shame, and the profound identity disruption that follows betrayal. Lindsay shares how the Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women—through the Harriet Tubman matching network, free leader guidebooks, continuing education, and research—connects women with tailored support that meets spiritual, psychological, and practical needs. From transfers that remove a member from a harmful command climate to food and utility assistance that stabilizes life, we explore how addressing root causes and basic needs unlocks deeper recovery.
We also tackle under-discussed realities, such as breastfeeding in the military, operational tempo, postpartum fitness standards, and the subtle ways culture can either uphold dignity or intensify distress. Along the way, we discuss creative healing modalities—such as writing, art, and music—that help service women process complex stories when words alone are insufficient. If you’re a leader, provider, or battle buddy, you’ll come away with language to recognize moral injury, steps to build an interdisciplinary web of care, and resources to share immediately.
Explore MISNS resources at msns.org, learn about the Tubman Network, and consider supporting this work for women who’ve borne the weight of service. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share it with a leader or teammate, and leave a review so more listeners can find it. Your voice helps move this from quiet pain to collective repair.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larry Zilliox (00:15):
Good morning.
I'm your host, Larry Zilliox,Director of Culinary Services
here at the Warrior Retreat atBull Run.
This week, our guest is LindsayMoser.
She's on the board of directorsof the Moral Injury Support
Network for Service Women.
We are very, very interested inany organization that is
(00:35):
helping our veterans deal withmoral injury.
Many of them don't recognizethat they have it, or it is what
they have, but they're beingtreated uh for PTSD because it's
the only thing treatment-wisethat practitioners can think of.
I was very intrigued when I sawthat this was a support network
(00:56):
dedicated to service women,because as we know, on all
levels, women who have served inthe military are underserved,
not only by the VA, but prettymuch every organization out
there.
And so I'm always veryinterested in in groups that are
focusing in on deliveringservices that are needed to
female service members.
(01:16):
So uh Lindsay, welcome to thepodcast.
Lindsey Moser (01:19):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
Larry Zilliox (01:21):
If you would, uh are you prior service or um I am
prior service as well ascurrent service.
Lindsey Moser (01:26):
I'm in the Air Force Reserve.
Okay.
Larry Zilliox (01:28):
All right.
And what's your job in the AirForce Reserve?
I'm a chaplain.
Okay.
Tell us a little bit about theorganization and how it got
started.
Lindsey Moser (01:36):
Yeah.
So the organization really gotits roots started in uh 2015,
um, when Dr.
Daniel Roberts, um, who's thepresident and CEO of our long
name is the Moral Injury SupportNetwork for Service Women
Incorporated.
Just save a little bit of time,we say missions, um, because we
believe that we are on amission to provide critical
(01:59):
support for women servicemembers as well as their
families and people that supportthem as they transition from
the military into the next stepin their life and also as they
navigate the military if they'recurrently serving.
So Dan identified a need forservice women to have more
(02:21):
targeted care in terms ofdealing with moral injury.
And, you know, as you'vediscussed on the podcast before,
and, you know, as people kindof in the field are aware, uh,
moral injury is similar to PTSD.
It's sort of like those twocircles on a Venn diagram.
There are some definite areasof overlap, but treating it as
(02:42):
the same as PTSD was leading tosome gaps in care.
And so missions kind of comesalongside service women through
training, continuing educationfor practitioners and people in
direct care to service women, aswell as educational workshops
and conferences.
And then we also have umbasically a matching network
where service women can apply tobe matched with a counselor, a
(03:06):
social worker, chaplain who isable to provide more tailored
support.
So that's like one-on-onevolunteer support.
Um, but we are a nonprofit.
Um I got involved with missionsback at the end of 2019, and
then I came on their board ofdirectors in 2020.
Have really enjoyed learningfrom really people that are kind
(03:26):
of leading the charge in thisarea of not only moral injury
support, but research as well.
So we we've had a number of uhpublications um as well as a
recently released guidebook formilitary leaders to identify
moral injury and provide supportin a way that is um not only
empathetic and emotionallyintelligent, but effective.
Larry Zilliox (03:50):
Well, our listeners will be familiar with
the issue.
We did a wonderful podcast withuh Captain Wooten, who was the
chaplain for the SoldierRecovery Unit at Fort Belvoir.
She's now um the chaplain up atuh West Point.
And uh she uh had been bringingout uh active duty soldiers in
(04:11):
the SRU for a week of counselingrelated to moral injury, and
then came out with families, andthen came out with cadre.
So it is something that canaffect uh people across a broad
spectrum.
It's not just only peoplewho've been in combat.
It can be command abandonment,it can be things that happen in
(04:33):
their personal life.
That's so I want our listenersto understand that this is not
just a combat injury.
Now, a lot of moral injuryresults from being in a combat
theater, having to makedecisions that go against your
moral code.
You can find moral injuryacross the entire spectrum, not
only of service members that wesee, but also in the private
(04:57):
sector when it comes to lawenforcement, EMS, frontline
healthcare workers.
You can find it, I mean, Ithink about COVID and I think
about decisions that frontlinehealthcare workers needed to
make in a hospital setting uhabout who received what
treatment and and that kind ofthing.
And clearly they many wereprobably plagued with moral
(05:19):
injury.
Listeners, I want to directyour attention to the uh
webpage, which is misns.org,O-R-G.
There's plenty of resourcesthere.
Want you to go and check itout.
There's also a podcast by Dr.
Dr.
Daniel Roberts.
He does a uh podcast and hasfascinating guests.
(05:42):
I I can I can't wait to startlistening to them.
What do you see is the numberone issue for female service
members that they come to youwith as far as it doesn't even
have to be moral injury, but butit almost always winds up with
some aspect of it.
But what are what are theissues that are really prevalent
(06:04):
for female service members andveterans?
Lindsey Moser (06:07):
That's a great question.
I think that with moral injuryin general, what we see most
often is this profound sense ofgrief and loss because with a
morally injurious experience,the individual has been
destabilized.
And so the person that theyknew themselves to be has
(06:30):
somehow changed.
This can either be because theywitnessed something that
transgressed their moralcompass, or that they were
complicit in that, or that theyhad to be the one to carry out
the order or make the decision,um, or that something was done
to them.
Another layer that we see withspecifically women and women
(06:51):
identifying service members thatcome to our organization is um
military sexual trauma, MST.
So events of sexual violencethat are gender-based are um
definitely tied and wrapped upin moral injury.
Because really at the core, andyou know, Jonathan Jonathan
Shade discusses this in histreatment of moral injury, sort
(07:14):
of the classic kind oftraditional treatment of, you
know, what is moral injury andhow do we sort of define it is
that it's the sense of uhsomething happened that wasn't
supposed to happen.
There's something that thatisn't right.
And that sense of not rightnessis something that occurs with
MST and events of gender-basedand sexual violence against
(07:36):
women's service members.
That we have this expectation,you know, in as a woman service
member myself, like I expect formy fellows in arms to respect
me, not only because of my, youknow, rank or military identity,
but as a person because we, youknow, we preach this message of
(07:57):
respect.
And so when that is not upheld,it can be extremely
destabilizing.
It brings a sense of betrayal.
I think that also somethingthat is um maybe understudied,
but definitely emerging withinmoral injury and definitely
something that we've seen withthe people that use our network
or who attend our conferences ismoral injury as it evolves in
(08:22):
um institutional situations,like that institutional
betrayal, that sense of Itrusted the system and I got
burned, I trusted my commanderand I was betrayed.
That's also something that umwe're starting to talk a lot
more about and raise awarenessabout because it is definitely
um uh, you know, moral injury umthat occurs not only in the
(08:45):
military, but as you say, inother contexts as well.
Larry Zilliox (08:49):
You know, I see that it really is the chaplain
corps that's at the forefront ofidentifying moral injury and
trying to boost awareness uhwithin the commands and to look
for an avenue of treatment.
I wonder what you think aboutthat as far as should it be in
(09:14):
up to chaplains or or shouldthere be a treatment, a medical
treatment approach to this?
I I know that the medical sideis struggling to understand it
and all they do is just put itoff as PTSD and we'll deal with
it like that.
But as you said earlier, it'sjust not the answer.
Do you think that the chaplaincorps should be the the tip of
(09:40):
the spear for dealing with thisissue?
Lindsey Moser (09:43):
I think that chaplains and um, you know, in
in the Air Force we call ourenlisted, our enlisted um
partners uh religious affairsairmen.
Um I think that chaplains andreligious affairs airmen can
help provide some of thatlanguage so that we're all on
the same page.
But I think the approach has tobe interdisciplinary.
(10:07):
One thing that we're reallyproud about with missions is
that our continuing educationopportunities, conferences and
workshops have started toattract a lot of people in the
medical professional, um, themedical profession, um, as well
as social workers and umpsychologists and really, you
(10:27):
know, people that are maybeseeing moral injury in in
different contexts than themilitary chaplains are.
And in our research and inconversations that we've had
with these partners about whatdoes moral injury look like in
your practice and in your field,is that there are so many
components that translate acrossdisciplines.
(10:48):
And because of that, andbecause of the complexity and
the way that it presents,particularly compared to PTSD
and related to PTSD, ourapproach to address it and
facilitate spaces for sealingfor healing, I think has have to
also be interdisciplinary.
So I think that the chaplaincore can definitely provide a
(11:12):
valuable voice in that fightagainst moral injury going
unnoticed and untreated.
I think that one thing toothat's specific to moral injury
is that it has a definite andoften common spiritual
component.
And so for the chaplain core,that's also something that we
(11:32):
focus on intensely is how can wecare for you in your spiritual
self?
Like how can we support thatspiritual component?
Because we believe that, youknow, the spiritual pillar is,
you know, one of one of theessential pillars, just like
your physical body needs care,your spiritual self also needs
(11:54):
care.
And moral injury impacts thespiritual self in a really
profound way.
And if we can address that andcome alongside people to provide
that spiritual care, then Ithink that that is definitely a
part of facilitating healing.
And at the end of the day, it'sonly one piece of the pie.
Larry Zilliox (12:12):
Do you think that from a command level that
they're sort of giving this tothe chaplain core to deal with?
Or is there any associatedfunding?
Are they recognizing that moreresearch needs to be done, or
this just can't be another thingthat's offloaded on the
chaplain core?
Lindsey Moser (12:33):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
Because I have experienceddifferent orientations to it
depending on our MAGCOM in theAir Force, you know, there there
might be more of an emphasis inone MADCOM versus another and
even down to the base level.
I think one of the things Iwill say, like I think that may
(12:54):
be a shortfall that we can domore to address is that if moral
injury is part of theconversation in care, and you
know, if if the Chaplain Corps,for example, are the ones
expected to be um targeting andand leading care and the only
ones sort of dealing with itamong the service members, I
(13:15):
think that commanders, ifthey're aware, would do more.
I think it's a matter ofbringing that message very
broadly so that commanders andand those, you know, senior
enlisted um personnel, um, ourcivilian leaders, like there's
making the message so broad andwidely known that there's no
(13:36):
excuse not to provide that careso that they can also have the
question or at least begin theconversation.
You know, one of the thingsthat I experienced um in the Air
Force was that we're the onlyconfidential resource on the
base.
And so in a given day, I couldhear everything from I'm
stressing out because I can'tmanage my time, like I'm really
(13:56):
stressed out with all thesetaskers, to I have really
serious suicidal ideations and Ibasically need a best friend
right now, or I'm not gonna gohome tonight.
So in a in the course of agiven day, it was quite the
diverse spectrum of issues thatwere presenting among the
service members that I directlyserved.
And I think that if someone,for example, had a great
(14:19):
relationship with their firstsergeant, had a great
relationship with um, you know,their their battle buddy or like
somebody in the shop with them,um, if someone was, or even a
commander, like to go to whoeveris above them and say, like,
hey, I'm dealing with this setof things, for that person to
not only be the confidant, butto say, like, hey, this sounds
(14:42):
like moral injury, I think thatthat would be exponentially
powerful because then we havethis common language, we can
start to identify it.
And even at the end of the day,like the treatment needs to
look like, oh, you go to mentalhealth or you get connected with
a VA or you get connected witha nonprofit in the community
that you know is is doing workthat you um can benefit from, no
(15:04):
matter kind of what the outcomelooks like, if we can at least
start the ball rolling and startthat conversation, I think that
that can only help.
Larry Zilliox (15:11):
Well, listeners, I'm in the middle of reading the
chaplain's handbook on moralinjury, which is a really great
uh book.
It really lays out what moralinjury is and and the different
contexts that it it canmaterialize.
And if you know a chaplain, askthem about moral injury and ask
them about whether or notthey've talked to their command
(15:35):
about moral injury.
And if you know anybody at thePentagon, ask them about moral
injury because it's great that acommander on a base is
knowledgeable about it andwilling to help, but they only
ha can affect those individualson that base.
(15:56):
When we're talking about uppercommand, when we're talking
about Pentagon level, we'retalking about changes that could
be made that could affect alarge number of service members
across the services.
Think about that.
Anytime you have a conversationthat you know of with a colonel
buddy, a major, a general, askthem about moral injury, what
(16:20):
they know about moral injury andwhat they think should be done
about moral injury.
Because more than anything, theconversation just needs to be
out there about it.
And the more that people talkabout it, I think the more
interest will grow.
And hopefully at some pointthere will be this synergy
between the chaplain corps andthe medical corps that says we
(16:43):
both need to be involved.
Right now I feel like it's morebeing pushed off on the
chaplain corps than than uhmedical uh commands,
unfortunately.
And I think that's they bothneed to be involved.
I I just feel like our servicemembers aren't being fully
served when they're not gettingthe proper treatment or they're
(17:07):
just getting the wrong treatmentbecause they're being shuffled
into a PTS program.
Lindsey Moser (17:12):
Yeah, and I mean that I think the best care is
holistic.
So again, thinking about thatwhole person concept or like,
you know, we'll use the verbiagelike the whole uh airmen
concept um concept, we can't, Ithink, effectively address just
one piece and kind of ignore allthe rest.
And so if a service member issurrounded by a network, I'll
(17:33):
providing holistic support, Ithink so much the better.
Like that would go that wouldgo so far into facilitating
healing that uh is effective andlasting and in actually
addressing the needs that theyhave.
Larry Zilliox (17:45):
I think the root causes sometimes need to be
addressed.
When you have a service memberwho has moral injury uh because
of command abandonment, theyneed to be transferred.
They're never going to trustthe command again.
They need a transfer to anotherbase or another installation,
or they can't be expected tofunction within a command or at
(18:12):
a base where that you know theywere a whistleblower that did
not get protection.
Those things, I mean, you yougotta look at the root cause
too, and say, okay, are wemaking sure we're addressing
that and correcting that becauseyou can't have that ongoing
while somebody is trying totreat or deal with moral injury,
(18:33):
but we're not really separatingthem from the root cause.
Lindsey Moser (18:37):
Yeah.
And even with, you know, ourour veteran support, one of the
things that um missions has doneum to support veterans
specifically is in the pastthree months, we've helped 180
women receive counseling throughour Harriet Tubman network,
where, you know, you're matchedwith someone who's able to
(18:57):
provide tailored care.
But it's not only counseling,we've been able to provide them
with access to tangible goodsand um as well as utility bill
assistance.
And that's something that Ithink about a lot, sort of
thinking back to like Maslow'shierarchy of needs.
Like you can't really reachthat self-actualization realm if
(19:17):
you're worried about whatyou're gonna eat and where
you're gonna sleep and yoursafety.
And so I think that even justresource sharing, I think is is
gonna be really important inthat conversation and that sort
of trickle down that you'redescribing, I think would go
such a long way if we just wereaware of the resources to begin
(19:39):
with.
But then as you say, you know,another example that comes to
mind in terms of what is theroot cause, sometimes it's
something that doesn't seem likeit has a direct correlation on,
for example, amilitary-specific experience
like combat.
And you said that kind of atthe beginning, you know,
although the research sort ofpromulgated from um combat
veterans who are coming back andit's like, well, it's not quite
(20:00):
PTSD, but it's similar.
And so the research has kind ofevolved from there.
Um, but even something that'sspecific to women service
members is breastfeeding.
Um, this is something that I'mreally passionate about.
I'm a military lactationcounselor through a program that
provides inclusivebreastfeeding education and also
looks at some of the nuancesthat service women have to go
(20:22):
through to successfullybreastfeed or chest feed a baby.
And so part of it is navigatingthe healthcare system while
you're on active duty, even youknow, if you're um in the guard
or in the reserve, um, managingmilitary insurance and then
finding a good provider to helpyou, such as an IBCLC or an MLC
(20:44):
to help you figure out, youknow, your plan for
breastfeeding and meet yourgoals.
But then also pumping with theops tempo in your shop or in
your unit, if you're a flyer, ifyou get deployed, if you have
training, um, either whileyou're pregnant and you're
hoping to breastfeed, or um,while you're postpartum,
sufficient postpartum leave.
And, you know, do you um go TDYor do you deploy while you're
(21:07):
postpartum?
And then what does fitness looklike after that?
And can you meet your fitnessgoals while also meeting
breastfeeding goals?
And that's something that wedon't, you know, probably think
of like right off the top of ourhead, like, oh yeah.
But I can say like sort offirsthand experience, the
support that I received or thelack of support had a direct
impact on my morale and like mysense of identity.
(21:29):
And I think that that'ssomething that uh is really
important and also uh unique toservice women is that, you know,
the the lack of support thatthey might potentially receive
in their unit or say from acommander or even from somebody
that is supposed to be there andyou know that hey, this is my
battle buddy, like this is theperson that I go to work with
(21:51):
every day and I'm you knowserving our country alongside.
And if they don't understandthe importance of this or they
denigrate it somehow or theycreate a barrier where I can't
meet this goal, then that can bereally destabilizing for that
sense of self, but also likethis is my ability to provide
for my child in a really uniqueand intimate way.
And so that's something that,you know, hopefully on the
(22:12):
horizon, like even withmissions, we've talked a little
bit about some projects, even ifit's just a research project,
if we publish a journal articlethat deals directly, you know,
with that, I think that that'san example of something that,
you know, it's not on thesurface, or if it's not probably
something that we're talkingabout in a lot of the the
research meetings, but it it isdefinitely um a piece of that
(22:34):
puzzle.
Larry Zilliox (22:36):
And what's the best way for uh a female service
member to reach out to theorganization to get counseling
or help?
Lindsey Moser (22:44):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So, like I mentioned, ourHarriet Tubman network is our
network run by chaplain ColonelCare and Meeker.
If you're interested inserving, for example, as a
volunteer for that network andyour your provider, so a social
worker, a counselor, a chaplain,we would love to hear from you.
If you're somebody who islooking to get care, then you
(23:05):
can get connected just throughour main website.
We also are on all the socialmedia platforms, and it's just
called um the Tubman Network.
We also have um moral injuryguidebooks that we distribute
for free.
I think we gave out um about280 since last May.
And this is specifically formilitary leaders, again, to kind
(23:26):
of help them um just continuethat conversation and be
familiar with the language andwhat moral injury looks like as
it presents in their servicemembers.
Um, but I think it's also areally great resource just for
anybody who doesn't really knowmuch about moral injury to learn
more.
And then we also providecontinuing education and we've
worked with over 600 licensedcounselors in the last couple of
months.
(23:46):
We do a lot of work with umgrants and also hosting, holding
an annual conference and thensome regional um sort of mini
conferences and workshops.
We work a lot with veteransupport groups and other
nonprofits who are also on thefront line doing the work of
support.
Really, the the easiest way,though, to get in touch is we
have um Dr.
(24:06):
Roberts' email address.
We also have like a support,you know, get in touch form at
the bottom of our website.
If you fill that out, then areal person will turn around and
get in touch with you in uh avery short amount of time.
We we really pride ourselves inhaving excellent sort of
customer service.
You know, all of our all of ourefforts are, you know,
volunteer.
Again, we're a nonprofit.
(24:27):
We want to be able to providethese things completely free,
sort of no barrier to to thepeople that come to us.
Um, if you're interested inattending a conference, for
example, and you're not able toum pay the conference fee, then
we have scholarships available.
So pretty much with anysituation, we take it very case
by case.
Um and if if you're looking forsomething, even if it's like
(24:49):
one of us can come and sit downand have coffee and like talk
with you and say, okay, what isthe need that is presenting?
Like, how can we support you?
Can we match you with somebodyin your area?
Maybe you just need somebody tokind of talk through your um
your stressors in in real time,like somebody literally sitting
across a table from you.
Like we can make that happen.
When is the conference?
Um, so check our website forthe um the most up-to-date
(25:13):
details on that.
I remember when I first gotinvolved with missions, that was
right as we were going intoCOVID.
And so we were it was a reallyinteresting experience having to
pivot and basically hold holdthat virtually.
We do have a lot of um sort ofmini conferences and and
workshop opportunities that arevirtual though.
So if travel is not doable forsomebody, we do have um several
(25:35):
virtual opportunities throughoutthe year.
Okay.
Um, and we also um have anewsletter that comes out that
you can sign up for to uh stayup to date with those dates.
Larry Zilliox (25:45):
Okay, great.
Well, listeners, the uh webpageagain is msns.org.
I want everybody to go and takea look at it.
If you know a female servicemember, please shoot them the
URL, shoot them the link to thiswebpage, tell them to take a
(26:06):
look at it, and our regularlisteners will know what I'm
gonna say.
Right up there in thatright-hand corner, you know what
it is.
It's the donate button.
So donate, please.
This is a a really worthycause.
I mean, there aren't manyorganizations out there that are
specifically geared towardsproviding resources and services
(26:29):
for female service members.
They are underserved across theboard, and this is a way for
you to donate and help thisorganization help other uh
female service members.
So please give what you can,uh, make sure you donate, visit
the webpage and check on uh uhDr.
(26:50):
Roberts uh podcast and give ita listen.
I saw some very interestingguests that he had, and uh I
know I'm gonna add it to my listof podcasts, but uh Lindsay,
where do you see theorganization say in five years?
Lindsey Moser (27:10):
I know that we've talked about continuing our
partnerships with other umorganizations that are
supporting military members andtheir families.
I would love to see thatcontinue to grow.
I would love to see umpartnerships with um really
interesting creativeorganizations that use the arts
specifically.
That's kind of my background,is like English and creative
(27:33):
spirituality.
I think that would befascinating to continue research
on moral injury and how the artmodalities are able to
facilitate healing andself-exploration.
I think that would be fabulous.
I would love to see moreregional conferences.
That's definitely a directionthat we're hoping to go in the
(27:53):
next few years, is um smallerregional conferences so that
people don't have to travel veryfar, but they get a sense of
there's a community locally thatthey can plug into so that
they're not alone.
Because I think that's a bigpart of this is when you've
experienced moral injury, youfeel very isolated and you feel
(28:13):
like you're the only one.
And part of understanding notonly the injury, but how to move
forward in a way that bringsthe self-dignity is bearing
witness with other people.
So you have a sense ofcommunity.
And for military members andand for our service women, this
(28:34):
is also something that willalready be familiar to them is
that sense of community thatkind of automatically comes with
a military um tribe.
Yeah, exactly.
And and that's part of whatmakes it so hard is you know,
when when you've experiencedbetrayal by that community or
you've run up against somethingthat violates the moral compass
(28:55):
in the community that you've,you know, really written your
whole self over to that that canbe that can be really
significant.
And so replicating community ina really positive way with
people that understand a littlebit maybe of what you've gone
through or in some cases havehad the same type of experience
(29:17):
and and bear that same moralinjury and want to walk with you
through that experience, Ithink that is key.
And so focusing our effortsregionally, I think will will
continue to help propel us in anew direction.
And I think other than that,just continuing our research.
I'm really proud to serve withmissions because I think our
research is reallygroundbreaking.
(29:39):
We focus on different aspectsof moral injury as it presents
for families, spouses, as itrelates to MST.
So just a lot of really greatresearch that I think will
continue, make the continue tomake the information more
accessible.
Larry Zilliox (29:53):
Wow.
Well, uh, we wish you all theluck.
I mean, you guys are doingphenomenal work.
Again, listeners, the webpageis MISNS.org.
Check it out, make a donation,help them out as much as you
can.
Uh, Lindsay, I can't thank youenough for stopping by and
(30:13):
sitting down with us and Tellingus all about the wonderful
organization.
Lindsey Moser (30:17):
Thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure.
Larry Zilliox (30:20):
Well, listeners, we'll have another episode next
Monday morning at 0500.
If you have any questions orsuggestions, you can reach us at
podcast at willingwarriors.org.
You can find us on all themajor podcast platforms.
We're on YouTube and WreathsAcross America Radio.
Until then, thanks forlistening.
Good morning.
I'm your host, Larry Zilliox,Director of Culinary Services
here at the Warrior Retreat atBull Run.
This week, our guest is LindsayMoser.
She's on the board of directorsof the Moral Injury Support
Network for Service Women.
We are very, very interested inany organization that is
(00:35):
helping our veterans deal withmoral injury.
Many of them don't recognizethat they have it, or it is what
they have, but they're beingtreated uh for PTSD because it's
the only thing treatment-wisethat practitioners can think of.
I was very intrigued when I sawthat this was a support network
(00:56):
dedicated to service women,because as we know, on all
levels, women who have served inthe military are underserved,
not only by the VA, but prettymuch every organization out
there.
And so I'm always veryinterested in in groups that are
focusing in on deliveringservices that are needed to
female service members.
(01:16):
So uh Lindsay, welcome to thepodcast.
Lindsey Moser (01:19):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
Larry Zilliox (01:21):
If you would, uh are you prior service or um I am
prior service as well ascurrent service.
Lindsey Moser (01:26):
I'm in the Air Force Reserve.
Okay.
Larry Zilliox (01:28):
All right.
And what's your job in the AirForce Reserve?
I'm a chaplain.
Okay.
Tell us a little bit about theorganization and how it got
started.
Lindsey Moser (01:36):
Yeah.
So the organization really gotits roots started in uh 2015,
um, when Dr.
Daniel Roberts, um, who's thepresident and CEO of our long
name is the Moral Injury SupportNetwork for Service Women
Incorporated.
Just save a little bit of time,we say missions, um, because we
believe that we are on amission to provide critical
(01:59):
support for women servicemembers as well as their
families and people that supportthem as they transition from
the military into the next stepin their life and also as they
navigate the military if they'recurrently serving.
So Dan identified a need forservice women to have more
(02:21):
targeted care in terms ofdealing with moral injury.
And, you know, as you'vediscussed on the podcast before,
and, you know, as people kindof in the field are aware, uh,
moral injury is similar to PTSD.
It's sort of like those twocircles on a Venn diagram.
There are some definite areasof overlap, but treating it as
(02:42):
the same as PTSD was leading tosome gaps in care.
And so missions kind of comesalongside service women through
training, continuing educationfor practitioners and people in
direct care to service women, aswell as educational workshops
and conferences.
And then we also have umbasically a matching network
where service women can apply tobe matched with a counselor, a
(03:06):
social worker, chaplain who isable to provide more tailored
support.
So that's like one-on-onevolunteer support.
Um, but we are a nonprofit.
Um I got involved with missionsback at the end of 2019, and
then I came on their board ofdirectors in 2020.
Have really enjoyed learningfrom really people that are kind
(03:26):
of leading the charge in thisarea of not only moral injury
support, but research as well.
So we we've had a number of uhpublications um as well as a
recently released guidebook formilitary leaders to identify
moral injury and provide supportin a way that is um not only
empathetic and emotionallyintelligent, but effective.
Larry Zilliox (03:50):
Well, our listeners will be familiar with
the issue.
We did a wonderful podcast withuh Captain Wooten, who was the
chaplain for the SoldierRecovery Unit at Fort Belvoir.
She's now um the chaplain up atuh West Point.
And uh she uh had been bringingout uh active duty soldiers in
(04:11):
the SRU for a week of counselingrelated to moral injury, and
then came out with families, andthen came out with cadre.
So it is something that canaffect uh people across a broad
spectrum.
It's not just only peoplewho've been in combat.
It can be command abandonment,it can be things that happen in
(04:33):
their personal life.
That's so I want our listenersto understand that this is not
just a combat injury.
Now, a lot of moral injuryresults from being in a combat
theater, having to makedecisions that go against your
moral code.
You can find moral injuryacross the entire spectrum, not
only of service members that wesee, but also in the private
(04:57):
sector when it comes to lawenforcement, EMS, frontline
healthcare workers.
You can find it, I mean, Ithink about COVID and I think
about decisions that frontlinehealthcare workers needed to
make in a hospital setting uhabout who received what
treatment and and that kind ofthing.
And clearly they many wereprobably plagued with moral
(05:19):
injury.
Listeners, I want to directyour attention to the uh
webpage, which is misns.org,O-R-G.
There's plenty of resourcesthere.
Want you to go and check itout.
There's also a podcast by Dr.
Dr.
Daniel Roberts.
He does a uh podcast and hasfascinating guests.
(05:42):
I I can I can't wait to startlistening to them.
What do you see is the numberone issue for female service
members that they come to youwith as far as it doesn't even
have to be moral injury, but butit almost always winds up with
some aspect of it.
But what are what are theissues that are really prevalent
(06:04):
for female service members andveterans?
Lindsey Moser (06:07):
That's a great question.
I think that with moral injuryin general, what we see most
often is this profound sense ofgrief and loss because with a
morally injurious experience,the individual has been
destabilized.
And so the person that theyknew themselves to be has
(06:30):
somehow changed.
This can either be because theywitnessed something that
transgressed their moralcompass, or that they were
complicit in that, or that theyhad to be the one to carry out
the order or make the decision,um, or that something was done
to them.
Another layer that we see withspecifically women and women
(06:51):
identifying service members thatcome to our organization is um
military sexual trauma, MST.
So events of sexual violencethat are gender-based are um
definitely tied and wrapped upin moral injury.
Because really at the core, andyou know, Jonathan Jonathan
Shade discusses this in histreatment of moral injury, sort
(07:14):
of the classic kind oftraditional treatment of, you
know, what is moral injury andhow do we sort of define it is
that it's the sense of uhsomething happened that wasn't
supposed to happen.
There's something that thatisn't right.
And that sense of not rightnessis something that occurs with
MST and events of gender-basedand sexual violence against
(07:36):
women's service members.
That we have this expectation,you know, in as a woman service
member myself, like I expect formy fellows in arms to respect
me, not only because of my, youknow, rank or military identity,
but as a person because we, youknow, we preach this message of
(07:57):
respect.
And so when that is not upheld,it can be extremely
destabilizing.
It brings a sense of betrayal.
I think that also somethingthat is um maybe understudied,
but definitely emerging withinmoral injury and definitely
something that we've seen withthe people that use our network
or who attend our conferences ismoral injury as it evolves in
(08:22):
um institutional situations,like that institutional
betrayal, that sense of Itrusted the system and I got
burned, I trusted my commanderand I was betrayed.
That's also something that umwe're starting to talk a lot
more about and raise awarenessabout because it is definitely
um uh, you know, moral injury umthat occurs not only in the
(08:45):
military, but as you say, inother contexts as well.
Larry Zilliox (08:49):
You know, I see that it really is the chaplain
corps that's at the forefront ofidentifying moral injury and
trying to boost awareness uhwithin the commands and to look
for an avenue of treatment.
I wonder what you think aboutthat as far as should it be in
(09:14):
up to chaplains or or shouldthere be a treatment, a medical
treatment approach to this?
I I know that the medical sideis struggling to understand it
and all they do is just put itoff as PTSD and we'll deal with
it like that.
But as you said earlier, it'sjust not the answer.
Do you think that the chaplaincorps should be the the tip of
(09:40):
the spear for dealing with thisissue?
Lindsey Moser (09:43):
I think that chaplains and um, you know, in
in the Air Force we call ourenlisted, our enlisted um
partners uh religious affairsairmen.
Um I think that chaplains andreligious affairs airmen can
help provide some of thatlanguage so that we're all on
the same page.
But I think the approach has tobe interdisciplinary.
(10:07):
One thing that we're reallyproud about with missions is
that our continuing educationopportunities, conferences and
workshops have started toattract a lot of people in the
medical professional, um, themedical profession, um, as well
as social workers and umpsychologists and really, you
(10:27):
know, people that are maybeseeing moral injury in in
different contexts than themilitary chaplains are.
And in our research and inconversations that we've had
with these partners about whatdoes moral injury look like in
your practice and in your field,is that there are so many
components that translate acrossdisciplines.
(10:48):
And because of that, andbecause of the complexity and
the way that it presents,particularly compared to PTSD
and related to PTSD, ourapproach to address it and
facilitate spaces for sealingfor healing, I think has have to
also be interdisciplinary.
So I think that the chaplaincore can definitely provide a
(11:12):
valuable voice in that fightagainst moral injury going
unnoticed and untreated.
I think that one thing toothat's specific to moral injury
is that it has a definite andoften common spiritual
component.
And so for the chaplain core,that's also something that we
(11:32):
focus on intensely is how can wecare for you in your spiritual
self?
Like how can we support thatspiritual component?
Because we believe that, youknow, the spiritual pillar is,
you know, one of one of theessential pillars, just like
your physical body needs care,your spiritual self also needs
(11:54):
care.
And moral injury impacts thespiritual self in a really
profound way.
And if we can address that andcome alongside people to provide
that spiritual care, then Ithink that that is definitely a
part of facilitating healing.
And at the end of the day, it'sonly one piece of the pie.
Larry Zilliox (12:12):
Do you think that from a command level that
they're sort of giving this tothe chaplain core to deal with?
Or is there any associatedfunding?
Are they recognizing that moreresearch needs to be done, or
this just can't be another thingthat's offloaded on the
chaplain core?
Lindsey Moser (12:33):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
Because I have experienceddifferent orientations to it
depending on our MAGCOM in theAir Force, you know, there there
might be more of an emphasis inone MADCOM versus another and
even down to the base level.
I think one of the things Iwill say, like I think that may
(12:54):
be a shortfall that we can domore to address is that if moral
injury is part of theconversation in care, and you
know, if if the Chaplain Corps,for example, are the ones
expected to be um targeting andand leading care and the only
ones sort of dealing with itamong the service members, I
(13:15):
think that commanders, ifthey're aware, would do more.
I think it's a matter ofbringing that message very
broadly so that commanders andand those, you know, senior
enlisted um personnel, um, ourcivilian leaders, like there's
making the message so broad andwidely known that there's no
(13:36):
excuse not to provide that careso that they can also have the
question or at least begin theconversation.
You know, one of the thingsthat I experienced um in the Air
Force was that we're the onlyconfidential resource on the
base.
And so in a given day, I couldhear everything from I'm
stressing out because I can'tmanage my time, like I'm really
(13:56):
stressed out with all thesetaskers, to I have really
serious suicidal ideations and Ibasically need a best friend
right now, or I'm not gonna gohome tonight.
So in a in the course of agiven day, it was quite the
diverse spectrum of issues thatwere presenting among the
service members that I directlyserved.
And I think that if someone,for example, had a great
(14:19):
relationship with their firstsergeant, had a great
relationship with um, you know,their their battle buddy or like
somebody in the shop with them,um, if someone was, or even a
commander, like to go to whoeveris above them and say, like,
hey, I'm dealing with this setof things, for that person to
not only be the confidant, butto say, like, hey, this sounds
(14:42):
like moral injury, I think thatthat would be exponentially
powerful because then we havethis common language, we can
start to identify it.
And even at the end of the day,like the treatment needs to
look like, oh, you go to mentalhealth or you get connected with
a VA or you get connected witha nonprofit in the community
that you know is is doing workthat you um can benefit from, no
(15:04):
matter kind of what the outcomelooks like, if we can at least
start the ball rolling and startthat conversation, I think that
that can only help.
Larry Zilliox (15:11):
Well, listeners, I'm in the middle of reading the
chaplain's handbook on moralinjury, which is a really great
uh book.
It really lays out what moralinjury is and and the different
contexts that it it canmaterialize.
And if you know a chaplain, askthem about moral injury and ask
them about whether or notthey've talked to their command
(15:35):
about moral injury.
And if you know anybody at thePentagon, ask them about moral
injury because it's great that acommander on a base is
knowledgeable about it andwilling to help, but they only
ha can affect those individualson that base.
(15:56):
When we're talking about uppercommand, when we're talking
about Pentagon level, we'retalking about changes that could
be made that could affect alarge number of service members
across the services.
Think about that.
Anytime you have a conversationthat you know of with a colonel
buddy, a major, a general, askthem about moral injury, what
(16:20):
they know about moral injury andwhat they think should be done
about moral injury.
Because more than anything, theconversation just needs to be
out there about it.
And the more that people talkabout it, I think the more
interest will grow.
And hopefully at some pointthere will be this synergy
between the chaplain corps andthe medical corps that says we
(16:43):
both need to be involved.
Right now I feel like it's morebeing pushed off on the
chaplain corps than than uhmedical uh commands,
unfortunately.
And I think that's they bothneed to be involved.
I I just feel like our servicemembers aren't being fully
served when they're not gettingthe proper treatment or they're
(17:07):
just getting the wrong treatmentbecause they're being shuffled
into a PTS program.
Lindsey Moser (17:12):
Yeah, and I mean that I think the best care is
holistic.
So again, thinking about thatwhole person concept or like,
you know, we'll use the verbiagelike the whole uh airmen
concept um concept, we can't, Ithink, effectively address just
one piece and kind of ignore allthe rest.
And so if a service member issurrounded by a network, I'll
(17:33):
providing holistic support, Ithink so much the better.
Like that would go that wouldgo so far into facilitating
healing that uh is effective andlasting and in actually
addressing the needs that theyhave.
Larry Zilliox (17:45):
I think the root causes sometimes need to be
addressed.
When you have a service memberwho has moral injury uh because
of command abandonment, theyneed to be transferred.
They're never going to trustthe command again.
They need a transfer to anotherbase or another installation,
or they can't be expected tofunction within a command or at
(18:12):
a base where that you know theywere a whistleblower that did
not get protection.
Those things, I mean, you yougotta look at the root cause
too, and say, okay, are wemaking sure we're addressing
that and correcting that becauseyou can't have that ongoing
while somebody is trying totreat or deal with moral injury,
(18:33):
but we're not really separatingthem from the root cause.
Lindsey Moser (18:37):
Yeah.
And even with, you know, ourour veteran support, one of the
things that um missions has doneum to support veterans
specifically is in the pastthree months, we've helped 180
women receive counseling throughour Harriet Tubman network,
where, you know, you're matchedwith someone who's able to
(18:57):
provide tailored care.
But it's not only counseling,we've been able to provide them
with access to tangible goodsand um as well as utility bill
assistance.
And that's something that Ithink about a lot, sort of
thinking back to like Maslow'shierarchy of needs.
Like you can't really reachthat self-actualization realm if
(19:17):
you're worried about whatyou're gonna eat and where
you're gonna sleep and yoursafety.
And so I think that even justresource sharing, I think is is
gonna be really important inthat conversation and that sort
of trickle down that you'redescribing, I think would go
such a long way if we just wereaware of the resources to begin
(19:39):
with.
But then as you say, you know,another example that comes to
mind in terms of what is theroot cause, sometimes it's
something that doesn't seem likeit has a direct correlation on,
for example, amilitary-specific experience
like combat.
And you said that kind of atthe beginning, you know,
although the research sort ofpromulgated from um combat
veterans who are coming back andit's like, well, it's not quite
(20:00):
PTSD, but it's similar.
And so the research has kind ofevolved from there.
Um, but even something that'sspecific to women service
members is breastfeeding.
Um, this is something that I'mreally passionate about.
I'm a military lactationcounselor through a program that
provides inclusivebreastfeeding education and also
looks at some of the nuancesthat service women have to go
(20:22):
through to successfullybreastfeed or chest feed a baby.
And so part of it is navigatingthe healthcare system while
you're on active duty, even youknow, if you're um in the guard
or in the reserve, um, managingmilitary insurance and then
finding a good provider to helpyou, such as an IBCLC or an MLC
(20:44):
to help you figure out, youknow, your plan for
breastfeeding and meet yourgoals.
But then also pumping with theops tempo in your shop or in
your unit, if you're a flyer, ifyou get deployed, if you have
training, um, either whileyou're pregnant and you're
hoping to breastfeed, or um,while you're postpartum,
sufficient postpartum leave.
And, you know, do you um go TDYor do you deploy while you're
(21:07):
postpartum?
And then what does fitness looklike after that?
And can you meet your fitnessgoals while also meeting
breastfeeding goals?
And that's something that wedon't, you know, probably think
of like right off the top of ourhead, like, oh yeah.
But I can say like sort offirsthand experience, the
support that I received or thelack of support had a direct
impact on my morale and like mysense of identity.
(21:29):
And I think that that'ssomething that uh is really
important and also uh unique toservice women is that, you know,
the the lack of support thatthey might potentially receive
in their unit or say from acommander or even from somebody
that is supposed to be there andyou know that hey, this is my
battle buddy, like this is theperson that I go to work with
(21:51):
every day and I'm you knowserving our country alongside.
And if they don't understandthe importance of this or they
denigrate it somehow or theycreate a barrier where I can't
meet this goal, then that can bereally destabilizing for that
sense of self, but also likethis is my ability to provide
for my child in a really uniqueand intimate way.
And so that's something that,you know, hopefully on the
(22:12):
horizon, like even withmissions, we've talked a little
bit about some projects, even ifit's just a research project,
if we publish a journal articlethat deals directly, you know,
with that, I think that that'san example of something that,
you know, it's not on thesurface, or if it's not probably
something that we're talkingabout in a lot of the the
research meetings, but it it isdefinitely um a piece of that
(22:34):
puzzle.
Larry Zilliox (22:36):
And what's the best way for uh a female service
member to reach out to theorganization to get counseling
or help?
Lindsey Moser (22:44):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So, like I mentioned, ourHarriet Tubman network is our
network run by chaplain ColonelCare and Meeker.
If you're interested inserving, for example, as a
volunteer for that network andyour your provider, so a social
worker, a counselor, a chaplain,we would love to hear from you.
If you're somebody who islooking to get care, then you
(23:05):
can get connected just throughour main website.
We also are on all the socialmedia platforms, and it's just
called um the Tubman Network.
We also have um moral injuryguidebooks that we distribute
for free.
I think we gave out um about280 since last May.
And this is specifically formilitary leaders, again, to kind
(23:26):
of help them um just continuethat conversation and be
familiar with the language andwhat moral injury looks like as
it presents in their servicemembers.
Um, but I think it's also areally great resource just for
anybody who doesn't really knowmuch about moral injury to learn
more.
And then we also providecontinuing education and we've
worked with over 600 licensedcounselors in the last couple of
months.
(23:46):
We do a lot of work with umgrants and also hosting, holding
an annual conference and thensome regional um sort of mini
conferences and workshops.
We work a lot with veteransupport groups and other
nonprofits who are also on thefront line doing the work of
support.
Really, the the easiest way,though, to get in touch is we
have um Dr.
(24:06):
Roberts' email address.
We also have like a support,you know, get in touch form at
the bottom of our website.
If you fill that out, then areal person will turn around and
get in touch with you in uh avery short amount of time.
We we really pride ourselves inhaving excellent sort of
customer service.
You know, all of our all of ourefforts are, you know,
volunteer.
Again, we're a nonprofit.
(24:27):
We want to be able to providethese things completely free,
sort of no barrier to to thepeople that come to us.
Um, if you're interested inattending a conference, for
example, and you're not able toum pay the conference fee, then
we have scholarships available.
So pretty much with anysituation, we take it very case
by case.
Um and if if you're looking forsomething, even if it's like
(24:49):
one of us can come and sit downand have coffee and like talk
with you and say, okay, what isthe need that is presenting?
Like, how can we support you?
Can we match you with somebodyin your area?
Maybe you just need somebody tokind of talk through your um
your stressors in in real time,like somebody literally sitting
across a table from you.
Like we can make that happen.
When is the conference?
Um, so check our website forthe um the most up-to-date
(25:13):
details on that.
I remember when I first gotinvolved with missions, that was
right as we were going intoCOVID.
And so we were it was a reallyinteresting experience having to
pivot and basically hold holdthat virtually.
We do have a lot of um sort ofmini conferences and and
workshop opportunities that arevirtual though.
So if travel is not doable forsomebody, we do have um several
(25:35):
virtual opportunities throughoutthe year.
Okay.
Um, and we also um have anewsletter that comes out that
you can sign up for to uh stayup to date with those dates.
Larry Zilliox (25:45):
Okay, great.
Well, listeners, the uh webpageagain is msns.org.
I want everybody to go and takea look at it.
If you know a female servicemember, please shoot them the
URL, shoot them the link to thiswebpage, tell them to take a
(26:06):
look at it, and our regularlisteners will know what I'm
gonna say.
Right up there in thatright-hand corner, you know what
it is.
It's the donate button.
So donate, please.
This is a a really worthycause.
I mean, there aren't manyorganizations out there that are
specifically geared towardsproviding resources and services
(26:29):
for female service members.
They are underserved across theboard, and this is a way for
you to donate and help thisorganization help other uh
female service members.
So please give what you can,uh, make sure you donate, visit
the webpage and check on uh uhDr.
(26:50):
Roberts uh podcast and give ita listen.
I saw some very interestingguests that he had, and uh I
know I'm gonna add it to my listof podcasts, but uh Lindsay,
where do you see theorganization say in five years?
Lindsey Moser (27:10):
I know that we've talked about continuing our
partnerships with other umorganizations that are
supporting military members andtheir families.
I would love to see thatcontinue to grow.
I would love to see umpartnerships with um really
interesting creativeorganizations that use the arts
specifically.
That's kind of my background,is like English and creative
(27:33):
spirituality.
I think that would befascinating to continue research
on moral injury and how the artmodalities are able to
facilitate healing andself-exploration.
I think that would be fabulous.
I would love to see moreregional conferences.
That's definitely a directionthat we're hoping to go in the
(27:53):
next few years, is um smallerregional conferences so that
people don't have to travel veryfar, but they get a sense of
there's a community locally thatthey can plug into so that
they're not alone.
Because I think that's a bigpart of this is when you've
experienced moral injury, youfeel very isolated and you feel
(28:13):
like you're the only one.
And part of understanding notonly the injury, but how to move
forward in a way that bringsthe self-dignity is bearing
witness with other people.
So you have a sense ofcommunity.
And for military members andand for our service women, this
(28:34):
is also something that willalready be familiar to them is
that sense of community thatkind of automatically comes with
a military um tribe.
Yeah, exactly.
And and that's part of whatmakes it so hard is you know,
when when you've experiencedbetrayal by that community or
you've run up against somethingthat violates the moral compass
(28:55):
in the community that you've,you know, really written your
whole self over to that that canbe that can be really
significant.
And so replicating community ina really positive way with
people that understand a littlebit maybe of what you've gone
through or in some cases havehad the same type of experience
(29:17):
and and bear that same moralinjury and want to walk with you
through that experience, Ithink that is key.
And so focusing our effortsregionally, I think will will
continue to help propel us in anew direction.
And I think other than that,just continuing our research.
I'm really proud to serve withmissions because I think our
research is reallygroundbreaking.
(29:39):
We focus on different aspectsof moral injury as it presents
for families, spouses, as itrelates to MST.
So just a lot of really greatresearch that I think will
continue, make the continue tomake the information more
accessible.
Larry Zilliox (29:53):
Wow.
Well, uh, we wish you all theluck.
I mean, you guys are doingphenomenal work.
Again, listeners, the webpageis MISNS.org.
Check it out, make a donation,help them out as much as you
can.
Uh, Lindsay, I can't thank youenough for stopping by and
(30:13):
sitting down with us and Tellingus all about the wonderful
organization.
Lindsey Moser (30:17):
Thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure.
Larry Zilliox (30:20):
Well, listeners, we'll have another episode next
Monday morning at 0500.
If you have any questions orsuggestions, you can reach us at
podcast at willingwarriors.org.
You can find us on all themajor podcast platforms.
We're on YouTube and WreathsAcross America Radio.
Until then, thanks forlistening.
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