November 3, 2025 • 28 mins
The moment a service member transitions, the family’s support web can evaporate. We sat down with Hannah O’Brien, Program Director of the Veteran Spouse Network (VSN) at the University of Texas, to map out a better way forward: peer-led groups, practical suicide prevention tools, and data that actually reflects what spouses and caregivers need right now. If you’ve ever wondered how to rebuild the tribe after the military, this conversation brings the blueprint.
Hannah traces VSN’s roots from Texas-based research to a national network that runs mostly virtual, peer-facilitated groups. These are structured, welcoming spaces for spouses and caregivers navigating PTS at home, identity shifts after service, and the everyday frictions of life post-uniform. We dig into the evidence behind the model—measurable gains in quality of life, reduced anxiety and depression, and stronger social support—and how VSN refines its curriculum using ongoing evaluation and feedback from leaders in the field.
We also look at suicide prevention for families. Many veterans aren’t in treatment, which means loved ones often see the first red flags. VSN equips households with free monthly trainings like Mental Health First Aid, guidance on lethal means safety, and step-by-step safety planning. It’s clear, actionable, and built for non-clinicians—think CPR for mental health—focused on buying time and staying safe while help is secured. Plus, Hannah shares insights from the new Military and Veteran Spouse Wellness Survey, a national snapshot across eight domains that helps VSOs, funders, and communities design services families actually use.
You’ll leave with links to VSN’s podcast, a robust resource hub, and ways to get involved—from joining a group to sharing trainings with a caregiver you love. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share it with your network, and leave a quick review. Your support helps more families find the community, tools, and hope they deserve.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larry Zilliox (00:15):
Good morning.
I'm your host, Larry Zilliox,Director of Culinary Services
here at the Warrior Retreat atBull Run.
This week our guest is HannahO'Brien.
She's the program director ofthe Veteran Spouse Network,
which is part of the Institutefor Military and Veteran Family
Wellness at the University ofAustin, Texas, in Austin.
(00:36):
Sorry.
Um Hannah welcome to thepodcast.
Hannah O'Brien (00:40):
Thanks so much for having me.
Larry Zilliox (00:42):
So I ran across the uh institute.
Uh you guys were listed as aresource on a number of things
that I was looking at, and Ihadn't heard about them.
Um, I think most people, mostof my listeners probably have
heard about the uh the instituteat uh University of uh
Syracuse, up in Syracuse.
(01:03):
Um, but uh how long have youguys been around?
Hannah O'Brien (01:07):
Yeah, so we've been around informally and
formally.
My uh our institute director,Dr.
Lisa Bora, has been at UT doingwork in this space for about
the last decade.
She's been at the School ofSocial Work doing, you know,
research and projects related tothe military and veteran family
(01:29):
for that long, but we didn'treally formalize as uh our own
institute um until a few yearsafter that, as we really built
more projects and realized, youknow what, this is like a
untapped area of research.
Um, and you know, we could be aplayer in this space if we
really kind of built our ownthing.
So we did.
Larry Zilliox (01:49):
Yeah.
How do you like working whereyou went to school and living in
Austin?
Hannah O'Brien (01:55):
Well, I am actually uh born and raised in
Austin, Texas, and my parentsmet at the university in Texas.
So I um, you know, I bleedburnt orange.
So I I love it.
I knew at some point I wantedto go to school here, and I
literally started um workingthis job about a week before I
graduated from their social workprogram.
Larry Zilliox (02:17):
So and uh I believe your husband is a uh
Marine veteran, is that correct?
He is, he is.
Now, were you uh a militaryspouse?
Uh, were you married to himwhile he was on active duty?
Hannah O'Brien (02:30):
I was not.
Um, he got out in 2010 and wemet in 2015.
So I'm what we refer to oftenas post-service veteran spouse,
and there are actually a lot ofus out here.
Larry Zilliox (02:43):
Yeah.
Right away, I want to directour listeners to the webpage.
It's pretty easy.
It's veteranspousnetwork.org.
And take a look at all thedifferent programs.
And one of the things thatjumps out at me is your work
with peer-to-peer support aswell as your uh suicide
(03:07):
prevention program.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout how those came to be and
what each of those is?
Hannah O'Brien (03:14):
Yes, absolutely.
So I would certainly say thatlike peer support is our bread
and butter.
That's really what where westarted, what we do the most of,
what I'd say we're we're trulyexperts in, both from the
program side and the researchside.
Um, and that really came aboutuh from Dr.
Bora.
She was doing, in addition todoing her own work, um, or you
(03:37):
know, her own studies that shewas interested in 15 years ago
or so, she was also doingconsultant work for other orgs.
And one of those organizationshappened to be uh here in Texas,
we have the uh Texas VeteransCommission and they run a huge
program called the MilitaryVeteran Peer Network, uh, which
does peer support for veterans,families as well, but mostly
(04:00):
focused on the veteran.
And they brought her in to, youknow, conduct focus groups and
things like that with theveterans in their program to see
how they were liking theprogram, what could be uh
improved.
And she goes across the state,and sure enough, tons and tons
of spouses were showing up tothese focus groups despite not
(04:22):
being a audience of services.
And she talked to them.
She's a veteran spouse herselfas well.
They just said, you know what?
This is such a transportedprogram.
This like whole peer supportmodel is so supportive of our
veterans.
Where is this for us?
We need this too.
From there, that's really whereshe kind of shifted some of her
(04:43):
focus more into looking at, youknow, peer support for the
veteran spouse community.
And that's about the time thatI came on and joined her in
2017.
And we built, you know, aprogram, a curriculum-based
program that we still run todaycalled our veteran spouse
resiliency group program.
And that really just got usstarted.
And we just expanded and justreally being able to see both
(05:08):
anecdotally, just hearingparticipant feedback, but also
from the research that we'reconducting, how big of an impact
peer support really makes inthe lives of most people,
period, no matter what you'regoing through, but certainly
this spouse community who soused to like relying on peers in
their community for support.
(05:29):
And then also going throughsomething really unique that a
huge proportion of the civiliancommunity just doesn't
understand and can't relate to.
Um, so that's really where welike found our being.
I don't know if you have anymore questions about that, but I
can also talk about uh suicideprevention, which is newer for
us.
Larry Zilliox (05:46):
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the peer
support network.
Is it it's virtual?
Hannah O'Brien (05:51):
Largely.
Um, when we started reallyrunning groups back in like
2018, um, we were doing fullyin-person, just in the state of
Texas.
And we were really lucky, Iguess you'd say, that actually
prior to the pandemic, westarted doing virtual groups
across the state of Texasbecause, you know, no matter
what we do, Texas is huge.
(06:12):
We can't possibly have anin-person group in every
community.
So we started doing virtualgroups in addition to in-person
groups in about 2019, whichreally uh made things a lot
easier for us to pivot um andadjust in the pandemic.
And then in the pan, we hadconstantly getting people from
(06:32):
all over the country being like,hey, where's the you know,
South Carolina chapter of theVeterans Spouse Network?
They're like, oh, you know,we're not a chapter, we're just
us.
And so when the pandemic hit,uh, we we got our money from the
state of Texas and we justsaid, Hey, you know, would y'all
be at all willing to allow usto open our groups nationally
(06:54):
with your funding?
And they were just so generousand they said yes.
And so, really, since thepandemic, we've been a national
organization.
And so I would say about 98% ofour groups are virtual.
And then depending on where wehave, you know, peer leaders
across the country, we do somein-person groups as well.
Larry Zilliox (07:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I understand how popularthe program could be because for
military spouses of activeduty, they're used to that
support network that was justlanded on them when they arrived
at an installation.
So uh there's always uh spouseclubs and and like the army
(07:38):
spouses network, or you know,they they have them on the
installation.
And when these soldiers show upand they have a brand new bride
who doesn't know anything aboutthe military, the officers'
wives club and the networkthat's already there is there to
support them, to walk themthrough what they need to know.
And so, and then they they'repart of that, and then mentor
(08:02):
other new arrival wives and andspouses.
And um, it it's really it'sreally great because I see it as
a direct extension of that.
And and you know, that's one ofthe biggest problems that our
veterans have is that when theyleave the military, that they're
leaving that tribe behind.
And the same goes for spouses,you know, they they're used to
(08:25):
that support network from baseto base they would join and be
part of it, and and that goesaway as well.
So this is an amazing programthat you have.
It's really uh uh I hope you'regenerating um valuable data
about how important it is.
Do you do you guys do researchbased around the program?
Hannah O'Brien (08:45):
We do.
Um that that is the beauty ofyou know, my our our director,
who's our director of ourinstitute, and then the veteran
spouse network, uh although it'spart of the institute, we
almost kind of run it like aseparate national organization.
And she's our our researchdirector.
So she's a social worker, uhresearch researcher by trade.
So this is like her, this isalways what she wanted to do.
(09:07):
She jokes sometimes like, howdid I get to the point?
You know, before she kind ofturned uh the reins over to me
for Veterans Spouse Network,she's like, How did I get to the
point where I'm running anorganization?
Like, I'm a researcher.
Um, but because of that, youknow, having an evidence base
and collecting data andevaluating our programs is
incredibly important to usbecause we know how much that
(09:29):
one just makes sure that you'recreating program that actually
addresses the needs and doeswhat you're hoping it does,
right?
If we don't conduct um anevaluation, we don't know that
it's actually helping anyone.
So for especially for ourcurriculum-based program, which
started out as 12 weeks, now issix weeks, um, we've since 2018
(09:53):
been conducting pretty rigorousevaluations on that.
So we look at um participants'uh quality of life, um, mental
health symptoms like anxiety anddepression, um, as well as uh
their self-care practices andtheir kind of sense of social
support, really like thinkingthat those are the things we
think this group has the abilityto positively impact.
(10:15):
And yay, our research has shownthat it does positively impact
in all of those areas.
So it's doing what we hope it'sdoing.
And then, you know, weconstantly have those
conversations of like, arethings changing?
We also get a lot ofparticipant feedback in our
evaluation, as well as from ourpeer leaders who are actually,
you know, on the grounds, theones running these groups.
(10:37):
And we make changes as we needto to make sure that it's still
addressing the things that ourparticipants need it to, um, and
that we can get those thosepositive outcomes that we're
hoping to.
Larry Zilliox (10:48):
So does this data or this information, is it part
of the the military and veteranspouse wellness survey that the
institute does?
Hannah O'Brien (10:56):
No, so that's separate um and that's new.
Um, one of the things thatwe've always known and has been
hard is there's just so littledata about military and veteran
spouses, more so on active dutyspouses, but still a lot of gap
there.
Almost none about veteranspouses whatsoever.
(11:19):
And so, you know, us doing ourprogramming data and stuff like
that was a way to address that,at least from the side of what
we were doing with our programs.
But we had wanted to do more.
And so the wellness survey, weour our first annual was last uh
fall.
We ran it, and that's somethingwe just plan to keep doing to
(11:40):
really be able to have a bigger,wider picture of what is going
on in the lives of military andveteran spouses um in kind of
what we identified as like eightdomains of wellness, because
wellness is really our focus andbeing able to just better
understand where they're at andthen track that over time, you
know, as we the world ischanging.
(12:02):
Um, and so are they.
So we want to know and we wantto contribute to greater
understanding even outside ofus, right?
Being able to disseminate thisback out to the community so
that other organizations canunderstand um the population and
better address their needs.
Larry Zilliox (12:17):
Well, that's key right there, because uh uh
readers, you can find anddownload the uh results of the
survey on the uh institute'swebpage.
And I urge everybody uh todownload it and take a look at
it, especially if you are partof a veteran service
organization out there, andthere's about 55,000 of them.
(12:40):
And unfortunately, there are anumber of them that uh kind of
work the problem backwards andsay, hey, this is what we do,
let's give it to veterans andspouses and families, where they
don't really understand whatveterans, spouses, and families
need.
And so a lot of effort and alot of work goes into providing
(13:02):
sometimes services and productsthat uh families don't need.
As it can be geographic issues,it can be just just things that
that they just don't need.
And uh this kind of survey isextremely valuable, very similar
to the survey that Blue StarFamilies does, which is really
(13:23):
valuable to the VSO community.
So that's an awesome servicethat you all provide.
Tell me a little bit about theanti-suicide program, because
everywhere you look, there's alot of programs that are out
there, and I'm always interestedin ones that work.
Hannah O'Brien (13:41):
Yes.
So that's been a newer focusarea of ours and one that we've
been really excited to beinvolved in.
We'd always done some suicideprevention work, but mostly
focused on like equipping ourpeer leaders with the skills
they need to like identify ifsomeone's in crisis, right?
So we've been doing sometraining just of our leaders.
(14:01):
And when um, so we're we'regrantees of the Face the Fight
Collaborative, um, which is outof the um USAA's foundation, and
they have this, you know,almost 300-member coalition all
with the aim to end veteransuicide.
And so we started uh we're inour third year of funding with
(14:25):
them, just started this month,actually.
And that it's all about suicideprevention.
And what we really kind of ourniche in this is equipping the
family with the tools, thetraining, the support they need.
Because if you think about it,we know, right, that huge
(14:45):
percentage of veterans are notgetting care.
They're not seeing the doctor,they're not seeing the person at
the BA, they're not seeing acommunity clinician or anybody
like that.
They're reluctant to do thatfor whatever reason.
They are at home with theirfamily and their family are so
poised and positioned to be ableto notice those early warning
(15:06):
signs that something may behappening.
But if they don't know whatthose early warning signs are
and they don't know what to dowhen they see them, then what
are they gonna do?
How could they possibly help?
So we have really in the lasttwo years, like created a very
robust um suicide preventiontraining program aimed at
supporting families.
So we have monthly freetraining available and it's
(15:30):
really available to anyone.
So you don't have to be afamily member.
You could be a veteran, aservice member yourself, you
could be um a, you know, acivilian supporter, um, someone
who just cares about thiscommunity.
Maybe you have a lot ofveterans in your life that you
wanna, you know, look out for.
Maybe you're a provider, acommunity provider, and you just
want more training.
And so we do mental healthfirst aid training, which is uh
(15:54):
one of our favorites.
We've been doing it with ourleaders forever because it's
really geared towards like thelayperson's understanding of
like identifying mental healthcrisis symptoms and giving them
an actionable strategy tointervene in an appropriate way,
right?
We're not training anybody tobe a clinician.
That's that's not responsible.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Right.
Hannah O'Brien (16:17):
Um, but what can I do to keep someone safe?
Just like if I were to take amedical first aid, right?
I'm not, you know, doing openheart surgery, I'm doing CPR,
I'm, you know, keeping someonefrom bleeding out.
Same concept.
Uh so we've been doing a lot ofthat, as well as some um how to
talk about safe storage oflethal means um with your loved
(16:37):
one and how to create safetyplans.
So, how do you keep your familysafe so that if a crisis is to
arrive, you already know exactlywhat to look for and exactly
what to do.
And hopefully you can preventit from happening.
Larry Zilliox (16:53):
And these are online, they're virtual.
Anybody can sign up?
Hannah O'Brien (16:58):
Yes, and free.
Yes, and they these aretrainings that other places you
might have to pay for, socompletely free.
Larry Zilliox (17:05):
Well, yeah.
So listeners, again, theveteranswork.org.
You want to go there and take alook if you click on say the
the column conversations, whichis uh an excellent uh program
about uh access to lethal means,and we know statistically that
(17:25):
the majority of veterans thattake their life do so with a
firearm.
Um so we want to make sure thatuh the family is aware of uh
how it should properly be storedand to keep it it's always the
goal is to put a pause in theprocess.
And so properly storingfirearms and um ammunition is
(17:46):
key to putting that pause in theprocess if at all possible.
Wow.
So the idea that these you canthey're just sign up and
virtually take this class, andit's not only for veterans, um,
you might have a first responderin your family.
And we see uh moral injury as aserious issue with first
(18:08):
responders, both lawenforcement, fire department, um
uh frontline health careworkers in the ERs.
And uh uh so think aboutanybody who's in a position that
may become overwhelmed withwhat they see on their job.
And uh you might be seeing themexperience issues that might be
(18:31):
the result of moral injury oror just PTS in general.
Take these classes, take them,they're free.
Go there, send a link to otherrelatives, other friends that
you know, get as many people aspossible to spread the word
about it and take these classesbecause they're not long,
(18:52):
they're not hard to understand,it's not uh it's not loaded with
a bunch of medical jargon, it'smade for lay people, and
believe me, you're not gonnahave any trouble uh
understanding what this programis all about.
So please, uh listeners, theveterans spousnetwork.org, you
(19:12):
want to check it out.
Hannah, where do you see theVeterans Spouse Network in say
five years?
Hannah O'Brien (19:20):
I love this question.
Um, we have grown so much inthe last two years.
Um, when we started, it wasjust myself and Dr.
Bora.
Um, like added a team memberhere and there.
Uh in the last year, our teamhas doubled.
Oh, um, we now have about 10staff members, um, which when
(19:41):
you think of huge big nationalorganizations still seems small,
but for us, it's it's beenreally exciting to see what
we've been able to do.
Like, you know, kind of whenyou're when you're two people,
you're really kind of insurvival mode.
Like you're just like crankingit out, all right.
We're here for theparticipants, we're here for our
leaders, do it, doing whatneeds to be done.
And I feel like, especiallyjust in the last year, we've
(20:02):
really got into the point wherewe can start, you know, doing
those big dreams, looking fiveyears out and really feeling
equipped to to figure out whatit means.
Where do we want to go?
Um, and that's exciting.
And so we've been doing a lotof this national growth, a lot
of national partnership, becauseit is kind of weird being based
(20:23):
out of the University of Texasand having been a Texas only
organization for the firstseveral years of our existence.
So a lot of people, you know,still don't know we're out
there.
They still don't know thatwe're not just a Texas
organization.
And so we've been doing a lotof national partnerships and
making sure we're getting out inthe national community to
really make sure people knowlike we're here for you.
(20:45):
How can we um, you know, betterserve your community wherever
you may be?
Um, and so a lot of likestrategic partnership work is
what we've been doing, and it'sbeen really exciting.
Um, you know, I always jokeit's my favorite and least
favorite thing to hear when wemeet someone out in the
community and they're like, ohmy gosh, I I didn't know you
(21:06):
existed and I really wish I hadknown like two years ago.
Um, because you're like, oh,that probably means like, you
know, maybe some bad things werehappening, but but I'm so glad
you're here, right?
I'm so glad we're we'reconnecting now and you're aware
of us now.
So a lot of of targetednational expansion work is our
(21:27):
plan over the next several yearsso that we don't have that, you
know, we don't have peoplesaying, I didn't know you exist
and I really needed you fiveyears ago.
So that's really what we'redoing, and just you know,
continuing our our goodprograms.
We have a lot of programs.
I like to think we have alittle something for everyone.
And so just continuing to flushout and kind of adapt with the
changing needs of our community.
(21:48):
As they need us to change, wewill change.
Larry Zilliox (21:50):
So let's talk a minute about funding.
Where does the funding comefrom?
Hannah O'Brien (21:56):
Anywhere and everywhere.
No, you know.
Um wherever we can get it now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mentioned, you know, thisthe face the fight grant that
we're now in our third year of.
That's that has beentransformative for us to be able
to grow and really have thatfocus on on national growth.
And and so that's been great.
Prior to that, really, ourprimary funder, who they are
(22:19):
still one of our primaryfunders, is the state of Texas.
They have funded us through anamazing program called the Texas
Veteran Family Alliance GrantProgram since 2018.
Um, and and that's we've reallyloved that and enjoyed that
because, you know, I'll I'll behonest, Larry, like focus on the
(22:40):
family is not as few and farbetween.
So there is a lot, um, a lot offocus on veterans as they have
certainly earned.
But a lot of times when we're,you know, approaching funders or
looking for grants, they'resaying, Well, what do you mean
you don't serve the veteran?
You know, they're not servingthat directly, or maybe they'll
support our suicide preventionprogram because we keep we will
(23:02):
serve the veteran through that.
And so we do a lot of liketrying to educate and advocate
around, you know, spouses servedtoo, and spouses are affected
by their partner's service.
Even, you know, here I amtoday.
I did not serve alongside my myspouse, but he's a Marine Corps
veteran with PTSD.
Like, I am affected by hisservice, you know.
(23:24):
Um, I deserve support, and alsoI want to be equipped to
support him.
And so we have to do a lot ofthat kind of education, which
honestly I'd love to do.
That's I I hate that we have todo it, but I love to do it
because being able to seepeople's kind of eyes light up
and the you know, the thingsworking behind the brain of
(23:45):
like, oh, of course, it clicks.
Yes.
Larry Zilliox (23:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah O'Brien (23:50):
We do need to support them.
Larry Zilliox (23:51):
Well, you know, and uh I recently did an episode
with um uh one of the the C CEOor COO or uh one of the big
cheeses over at uh the ElizabethDole Foundation.
And they do a lot of work, ofcourse, with uh spouses and and
and children too.
And i it it is surprising thatso many people don't uh see the
(24:17):
impact uh one or two levelsremoved in the family.
So they just think, oh, the theveteran has a problem, or you
know, he has uh PTS or he's gota prosthetic and and they don't
they don't understand the tollthat that uh takes on the the
caregiver and then the childrenwho become caregivers and their
(24:40):
life is completely uh upended aswell.
And so um the you're right,there's there's so much uh focus
on the veteran, but verylimited focus on the family as a
whole or on the uh on the thecaregiver, the spouse.
So this is just uh an awesomeprogram that you have.
(25:01):
Um I also want to mention thatyou have a podcast, that you are
a podcaster.
Um I am, I am.
Yeah, well, it looked likeyou're doing an episode once a
month.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes.
Larry Zilliox (25:12):
Oh, okay.
That is uh is it available onall the major podcast platforms?
Hannah O'Brien (25:18):
It it is, it is.
Anywhere you can find apodcast, you should be able to
find ours.
Larry Zilliox (25:22):
Okay.
Well, listeners, it's theVeterans Spouse Network podcast.
So you just look it up on yourSpotify or it's really easy.
Everything is the veteranspousenetwork.org or podcast, or it's
easy to find uh Hannah and heramazing group of uh folks that
are doing such fantastic work.
(25:43):
So please listen to thepodcast, go to the webpage, and
my regular niss listeners knowwhat I'm gonna say now.
It's like any other veteranservice organization.
When you get to the webpage,you're gonna look up in the
right-hand corner, you're gonnasee that red donate button.
So bang on that button, givewhat you can, five dollars, five
thousand dollars.
They need all the money theycan get.
These programs are not cheap.
(26:05):
Uh, you have to pay staff, andhopefully they are paying staff
a reasonable uh amount of money,not a nonprofit kind of money,
but money that they deserve fortheir um knowledge and skills,
uh and the kind of money thatthey would make in the community
if they uh were out uh out atanother organization or another
(26:29):
company or something like that.
So please donate, give what youcan, look at all the resources.
So there's a really robustresource page there that'll take
you to all sorts oforganizations that uh might be
able to give you uh otherassistance that they can't.
But check it out, take that URLand send it to family and
(26:51):
friends and people that you knowthat need to um connect with
the resources that areavailable, all the virtual
programs that are available.
We want to make sure that we'regetting the word out as as much
as we can.
So please spread the word, youknow, link to it, put it on your
social media.
That is really, really gonnahelp a lot too.
(27:12):
Anna, I can't thank you enoughfor joining us today.
I really appreciate it.
Hannah O'Brien (27:17):
Oh, we appreciate it too.
And thank you for you know, allthe directions to all the
amazing different resources,donations, um, our programs.
Yeah, just connect, whateverthat means to you.
You know, we want to hear fromyou, wanting we want to see you,
want to serve you.
Larry Zilliox (27:32):
Great.
Well, thanks a lot.
And listeners, we'll haveanother episode next Monday
morning at 5 a.m.
If you have any questions orsuggestions, you can reach us at
podcast at willingwarriors.org.
You can reach us on find us onall the major podcast platforms.
We're also on YouTube andWreaths Across America Radio.
So until then, thanks forlistening.
Good morning.
I'm your host, Larry Zilliox,Director of Culinary Services
here at the Warrior Retreat atBull Run.
This week our guest is HannahO'Brien.
She's the program director ofthe Veteran Spouse Network,
which is part of the Institutefor Military and Veteran Family
Wellness at the University ofAustin, Texas, in Austin.
(00:36):
Sorry.
Um Hannah welcome to thepodcast.
Hannah O'Brien (00:40):
Thanks so much for having me.
Larry Zilliox (00:42):
So I ran across the uh institute.
Uh you guys were listed as aresource on a number of things
that I was looking at, and Ihadn't heard about them.
Um, I think most people, mostof my listeners probably have
heard about the uh the instituteat uh University of uh
Syracuse, up in Syracuse.
(01:03):
Um, but uh how long have youguys been around?
Hannah O'Brien (01:07):
Yeah, so we've been around informally and
formally.
My uh our institute director,Dr.
Lisa Bora, has been at UT doingwork in this space for about
the last decade.
She's been at the School ofSocial Work doing, you know,
research and projects related tothe military and veteran family
(01:29):
for that long, but we didn'treally formalize as uh our own
institute um until a few yearsafter that, as we really built
more projects and realized, youknow what, this is like a
untapped area of research.
Um, and you know, we could be aplayer in this space if we
really kind of built our ownthing.
So we did.
Larry Zilliox (01:49):
Yeah.
How do you like working whereyou went to school and living in
Austin?
Hannah O'Brien (01:55):
Well, I am actually uh born and raised in
Austin, Texas, and my parentsmet at the university in Texas.
So I um, you know, I bleedburnt orange.
So I I love it.
I knew at some point I wantedto go to school here, and I
literally started um workingthis job about a week before I
graduated from their social workprogram.
Larry Zilliox (02:17):
So and uh I believe your husband is a uh
Marine veteran, is that correct?
He is, he is.
Now, were you uh a militaryspouse?
Uh, were you married to himwhile he was on active duty?
Hannah O'Brien (02:30):
I was not.
Um, he got out in 2010 and wemet in 2015.
So I'm what we refer to oftenas post-service veteran spouse,
and there are actually a lot ofus out here.
Larry Zilliox (02:43):
Yeah.
Right away, I want to directour listeners to the webpage.
It's pretty easy.
It's veteranspousnetwork.org.
And take a look at all thedifferent programs.
And one of the things thatjumps out at me is your work
with peer-to-peer support aswell as your uh suicide
(03:07):
prevention program.
Um, can you talk a little bitabout how those came to be and
what each of those is?
Hannah O'Brien (03:14):
Yes, absolutely.
So I would certainly say thatlike peer support is our bread
and butter.
That's really what where westarted, what we do the most of,
what I'd say we're we're trulyexperts in, both from the
program side and the researchside.
Um, and that really came aboutuh from Dr.
Bora.
She was doing, in addition todoing her own work, um, or you
(03:37):
know, her own studies that shewas interested in 15 years ago
or so, she was also doingconsultant work for other orgs.
And one of those organizationshappened to be uh here in Texas,
we have the uh Texas VeteransCommission and they run a huge
program called the MilitaryVeteran Peer Network, uh, which
does peer support for veterans,families as well, but mostly
(04:00):
focused on the veteran.
And they brought her in to, youknow, conduct focus groups and
things like that with theveterans in their program to see
how they were liking theprogram, what could be uh
improved.
And she goes across the state,and sure enough, tons and tons
of spouses were showing up tothese focus groups despite not
(04:22):
being a audience of services.
And she talked to them.
She's a veteran spouse herselfas well.
They just said, you know what?
This is such a transportedprogram.
This like whole peer supportmodel is so supportive of our
veterans.
Where is this for us?
We need this too.
From there, that's really whereshe kind of shifted some of her
(04:43):
focus more into looking at, youknow, peer support for the
veteran spouse community.
And that's about the time thatI came on and joined her in
2017.
And we built, you know, aprogram, a curriculum-based
program that we still run todaycalled our veteran spouse
resiliency group program.
And that really just got usstarted.
And we just expanded and justreally being able to see both
(05:08):
anecdotally, just hearingparticipant feedback, but also
from the research that we'reconducting, how big of an impact
peer support really makes inthe lives of most people,
period, no matter what you'regoing through, but certainly
this spouse community who soused to like relying on peers in
their community for support.
(05:29):
And then also going throughsomething really unique that a
huge proportion of the civiliancommunity just doesn't
understand and can't relate to.
Um, so that's really where welike found our being.
I don't know if you have anymore questions about that, but I
can also talk about uh suicideprevention, which is newer for
us.
Larry Zilliox (05:46):
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the peer
support network.
Is it it's virtual?
Hannah O'Brien (05:51):
Largely.
Um, when we started reallyrunning groups back in like
2018, um, we were doing fullyin-person, just in the state of
Texas.
And we were really lucky, Iguess you'd say, that actually
prior to the pandemic, westarted doing virtual groups
across the state of Texasbecause, you know, no matter
what we do, Texas is huge.
(06:12):
We can't possibly have anin-person group in every
community.
So we started doing virtualgroups in addition to in-person
groups in about 2019, whichreally uh made things a lot
easier for us to pivot um andadjust in the pandemic.
And then in the pan, we hadconstantly getting people from
(06:32):
all over the country being like,hey, where's the you know,
South Carolina chapter of theVeterans Spouse Network?
They're like, oh, you know,we're not a chapter, we're just
us.
And so when the pandemic hit,uh, we we got our money from the
state of Texas and we justsaid, Hey, you know, would y'all
be at all willing to allow usto open our groups nationally
(06:54):
with your funding?
And they were just so generousand they said yes.
And so, really, since thepandemic, we've been a national
organization.
And so I would say about 98% ofour groups are virtual.
And then depending on where wehave, you know, peer leaders
across the country, we do somein-person groups as well.
Larry Zilliox (07:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I understand how popularthe program could be because for
military spouses of activeduty, they're used to that
support network that was justlanded on them when they arrived
at an installation.
So uh there's always uh spouseclubs and and like the army
(07:38):
spouses network, or you know,they they have them on the
installation.
And when these soldiers show upand they have a brand new bride
who doesn't know anything aboutthe military, the officers'
wives club and the networkthat's already there is there to
support them, to walk themthrough what they need to know.
And so, and then they they'repart of that, and then mentor
(08:02):
other new arrival wives and andspouses.
And um, it it's really it'sreally great because I see it as
a direct extension of that.
And and you know, that's one ofthe biggest problems that our
veterans have is that when theyleave the military, that they're
leaving that tribe behind.
And the same goes for spouses,you know, they they're used to
(08:25):
that support network from baseto base they would join and be
part of it, and and that goesaway as well.
So this is an amazing programthat you have.
It's really uh uh I hope you'regenerating um valuable data
about how important it is.
Do you do you guys do researchbased around the program?
Hannah O'Brien (08:45):
We do.
Um that that is the beauty ofyou know, my our our director,
who's our director of ourinstitute, and then the veteran
spouse network, uh although it'spart of the institute, we
almost kind of run it like aseparate national organization.
And she's our our researchdirector.
So she's a social worker, uhresearch researcher by trade.
So this is like her, this isalways what she wanted to do.
(09:07):
She jokes sometimes like, howdid I get to the point?
You know, before she kind ofturned uh the reins over to me
for Veterans Spouse Network,she's like, How did I get to the
point where I'm running anorganization?
Like, I'm a researcher.
Um, but because of that, youknow, having an evidence base
and collecting data andevaluating our programs is
incredibly important to usbecause we know how much that
(09:29):
one just makes sure that you'recreating program that actually
addresses the needs and doeswhat you're hoping it does,
right?
If we don't conduct um anevaluation, we don't know that
it's actually helping anyone.
So for especially for ourcurriculum-based program, which
started out as 12 weeks, now issix weeks, um, we've since 2018
(09:53):
been conducting pretty rigorousevaluations on that.
So we look at um participants'uh quality of life, um, mental
health symptoms like anxiety anddepression, um, as well as uh
their self-care practices andtheir kind of sense of social
support, really like thinkingthat those are the things we
think this group has the abilityto positively impact.
(10:15):
And yay, our research has shownthat it does positively impact
in all of those areas.
So it's doing what we hope it'sdoing.
And then, you know, weconstantly have those
conversations of like, arethings changing?
We also get a lot ofparticipant feedback in our
evaluation, as well as from ourpeer leaders who are actually,
you know, on the grounds, theones running these groups.
(10:37):
And we make changes as we needto to make sure that it's still
addressing the things that ourparticipants need it to, um, and
that we can get those thosepositive outcomes that we're
hoping to.
Larry Zilliox (10:48):
So does this data or this information, is it part
of the the military and veteranspouse wellness survey that the
institute does?
Hannah O'Brien (10:56):
No, so that's separate um and that's new.
Um, one of the things thatwe've always known and has been
hard is there's just so littledata about military and veteran
spouses, more so on active dutyspouses, but still a lot of gap
there.
Almost none about veteranspouses whatsoever.
(11:19):
And so, you know, us doing ourprogramming data and stuff like
that was a way to address that,at least from the side of what
we were doing with our programs.
But we had wanted to do more.
And so the wellness survey, weour our first annual was last uh
fall.
We ran it, and that's somethingwe just plan to keep doing to
(11:40):
really be able to have a bigger,wider picture of what is going
on in the lives of military andveteran spouses um in kind of
what we identified as like eightdomains of wellness, because
wellness is really our focus andbeing able to just better
understand where they're at andthen track that over time, you
know, as we the world ischanging.
(12:02):
Um, and so are they.
So we want to know and we wantto contribute to greater
understanding even outside ofus, right?
Being able to disseminate thisback out to the community so
that other organizations canunderstand um the population and
better address their needs.
Larry Zilliox (12:17):
Well, that's key right there, because uh uh
readers, you can find anddownload the uh results of the
survey on the uh institute'swebpage.
And I urge everybody uh todownload it and take a look at
it, especially if you are partof a veteran service
organization out there, andthere's about 55,000 of them.
(12:40):
And unfortunately, there are anumber of them that uh kind of
work the problem backwards andsay, hey, this is what we do,
let's give it to veterans andspouses and families, where they
don't really understand whatveterans, spouses, and families
need.
And so a lot of effort and alot of work goes into providing
(13:02):
sometimes services and productsthat uh families don't need.
As it can be geographic issues,it can be just just things that
that they just don't need.
And uh this kind of survey isextremely valuable, very similar
to the survey that Blue StarFamilies does, which is really
(13:23):
valuable to the VSO community.
So that's an awesome servicethat you all provide.
Tell me a little bit about theanti-suicide program, because
everywhere you look, there's alot of programs that are out
there, and I'm always interestedin ones that work.
Hannah O'Brien (13:41):
Yes.
So that's been a newer focusarea of ours and one that we've
been really excited to beinvolved in.
We'd always done some suicideprevention work, but mostly
focused on like equipping ourpeer leaders with the skills
they need to like identify ifsomeone's in crisis, right?
So we've been doing sometraining just of our leaders.
(14:01):
And when um, so we're we'regrantees of the Face the Fight
Collaborative, um, which is outof the um USAA's foundation, and
they have this, you know,almost 300-member coalition all
with the aim to end veteransuicide.
And so we started uh we're inour third year of funding with
(14:25):
them, just started this month,actually.
And that it's all about suicideprevention.
And what we really kind of ourniche in this is equipping the
family with the tools, thetraining, the support they need.
Because if you think about it,we know, right, that huge
(14:45):
percentage of veterans are notgetting care.
They're not seeing the doctor,they're not seeing the person at
the BA, they're not seeing acommunity clinician or anybody
like that.
They're reluctant to do thatfor whatever reason.
They are at home with theirfamily and their family are so
poised and positioned to be ableto notice those early warning
(15:06):
signs that something may behappening.
But if they don't know whatthose early warning signs are
and they don't know what to dowhen they see them, then what
are they gonna do?
How could they possibly help?
So we have really in the lasttwo years, like created a very
robust um suicide preventiontraining program aimed at
supporting families.
So we have monthly freetraining available and it's
(15:30):
really available to anyone.
So you don't have to be afamily member.
You could be a veteran, aservice member yourself, you
could be um a, you know, acivilian supporter, um, someone
who just cares about thiscommunity.
Maybe you have a lot ofveterans in your life that you
wanna, you know, look out for.
Maybe you're a provider, acommunity provider, and you just
want more training.
And so we do mental healthfirst aid training, which is uh
(15:54):
one of our favorites.
We've been doing it with ourleaders forever because it's
really geared towards like thelayperson's understanding of
like identifying mental healthcrisis symptoms and giving them
an actionable strategy tointervene in an appropriate way,
right?
We're not training anybody tobe a clinician.
That's that's not responsible.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Right.
Hannah O'Brien (16:17):
Um, but what can I do to keep someone safe?
Just like if I were to take amedical first aid, right?
I'm not, you know, doing openheart surgery, I'm doing CPR,
I'm, you know, keeping someonefrom bleeding out.
Same concept.
Uh so we've been doing a lot ofthat, as well as some um how to
talk about safe storage oflethal means um with your loved
(16:37):
one and how to create safetyplans.
So, how do you keep your familysafe so that if a crisis is to
arrive, you already know exactlywhat to look for and exactly
what to do.
And hopefully you can preventit from happening.
Larry Zilliox (16:53):
And these are online, they're virtual.
Anybody can sign up?
Hannah O'Brien (16:58):
Yes, and free.
Yes, and they these aretrainings that other places you
might have to pay for, socompletely free.
Larry Zilliox (17:05):
Well, yeah.
So listeners, again, theveteranswork.org.
You want to go there and take alook if you click on say the
the column conversations, whichis uh an excellent uh program
about uh access to lethal means,and we know statistically that
(17:25):
the majority of veterans thattake their life do so with a
firearm.
Um so we want to make sure thatuh the family is aware of uh
how it should properly be storedand to keep it it's always the
goal is to put a pause in theprocess.
And so properly storingfirearms and um ammunition is
(17:46):
key to putting that pause in theprocess if at all possible.
Wow.
So the idea that these you canthey're just sign up and
virtually take this class, andit's not only for veterans, um,
you might have a first responderin your family.
And we see uh moral injury as aserious issue with first
(18:08):
responders, both lawenforcement, fire department, um
uh frontline health careworkers in the ERs.
And uh uh so think aboutanybody who's in a position that
may become overwhelmed withwhat they see on their job.
And uh you might be seeing themexperience issues that might be
(18:31):
the result of moral injury oror just PTS in general.
Take these classes, take them,they're free.
Go there, send a link to otherrelatives, other friends that
you know, get as many people aspossible to spread the word
about it and take these classesbecause they're not long,
(18:52):
they're not hard to understand,it's not uh it's not loaded with
a bunch of medical jargon, it'smade for lay people, and
believe me, you're not gonnahave any trouble uh
understanding what this programis all about.
So please, uh listeners, theveterans spousnetwork.org, you
(19:12):
want to check it out.
Hannah, where do you see theVeterans Spouse Network in say
five years?
Hannah O'Brien (19:20):
I love this question.
Um, we have grown so much inthe last two years.
Um, when we started, it wasjust myself and Dr.
Bora.
Um, like added a team memberhere and there.
Uh in the last year, our teamhas doubled.
Oh, um, we now have about 10staff members, um, which when
(19:41):
you think of huge big nationalorganizations still seems small,
but for us, it's it's beenreally exciting to see what
we've been able to do.
Like, you know, kind of whenyou're when you're two people,
you're really kind of insurvival mode.
Like you're just like crankingit out, all right.
We're here for theparticipants, we're here for our
leaders, do it, doing whatneeds to be done.
And I feel like, especiallyjust in the last year, we've
(20:02):
really got into the point wherewe can start, you know, doing
those big dreams, looking fiveyears out and really feeling
equipped to to figure out whatit means.
Where do we want to go?
Um, and that's exciting.
And so we've been doing a lotof this national growth, a lot
of national partnership, becauseit is kind of weird being based
(20:23):
out of the University of Texasand having been a Texas only
organization for the firstseveral years of our existence.
So a lot of people, you know,still don't know we're out
there.
They still don't know thatwe're not just a Texas
organization.
And so we've been doing a lotof national partnerships and
making sure we're getting out inthe national community to
really make sure people knowlike we're here for you.
(20:45):
How can we um, you know, betterserve your community wherever
you may be?
Um, and so a lot of likestrategic partnership work is
what we've been doing, and it'sbeen really exciting.
Um, you know, I always jokeit's my favorite and least
favorite thing to hear when wemeet someone out in the
community and they're like, ohmy gosh, I I didn't know you
(21:06):
existed and I really wish I hadknown like two years ago.
Um, because you're like, oh,that probably means like, you
know, maybe some bad things werehappening, but but I'm so glad
you're here, right?
I'm so glad we're we'reconnecting now and you're aware
of us now.
So a lot of of targetednational expansion work is our
(21:27):
plan over the next several yearsso that we don't have that, you
know, we don't have peoplesaying, I didn't know you exist
and I really needed you fiveyears ago.
So that's really what we'redoing, and just you know,
continuing our our goodprograms.
We have a lot of programs.
I like to think we have alittle something for everyone.
And so just continuing to flushout and kind of adapt with the
changing needs of our community.
(21:48):
As they need us to change, wewill change.
Larry Zilliox (21:50):
So let's talk a minute about funding.
Where does the funding comefrom?
Hannah O'Brien (21:56):
Anywhere and everywhere.
No, you know.
Um wherever we can get it now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mentioned, you know, thisthe face the fight grant that
we're now in our third year of.
That's that has beentransformative for us to be able
to grow and really have thatfocus on on national growth.
And and so that's been great.
Prior to that, really, ourprimary funder, who they are
(22:19):
still one of our primaryfunders, is the state of Texas.
They have funded us through anamazing program called the Texas
Veteran Family Alliance GrantProgram since 2018.
Um, and and that's we've reallyloved that and enjoyed that
because, you know, I'll I'll behonest, Larry, like focus on the
(22:40):
family is not as few and farbetween.
So there is a lot, um, a lot offocus on veterans as they have
certainly earned.
But a lot of times when we're,you know, approaching funders or
looking for grants, they'resaying, Well, what do you mean
you don't serve the veteran?
You know, they're not servingthat directly, or maybe they'll
support our suicide preventionprogram because we keep we will
(23:02):
serve the veteran through that.
And so we do a lot of liketrying to educate and advocate
around, you know, spouses servedtoo, and spouses are affected
by their partner's service.
Even, you know, here I amtoday.
I did not serve alongside my myspouse, but he's a Marine Corps
veteran with PTSD.
Like, I am affected by hisservice, you know.
(23:24):
Um, I deserve support, and alsoI want to be equipped to
support him.
And so we have to do a lot ofthat kind of education, which
honestly I'd love to do.
That's I I hate that we have todo it, but I love to do it
because being able to seepeople's kind of eyes light up
and the you know, the thingsworking behind the brain of
(23:45):
like, oh, of course, it clicks.
Yes.
Larry Zilliox (23:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Hannah O'Brien (23:50):
We do need to support them.
Larry Zilliox (23:51):
Well, you know, and uh I recently did an episode
with um uh one of the the C CEOor COO or uh one of the big
cheeses over at uh the ElizabethDole Foundation.
And they do a lot of work, ofcourse, with uh spouses and and
and children too.
And i it it is surprising thatso many people don't uh see the
(24:17):
impact uh one or two levelsremoved in the family.
So they just think, oh, the theveteran has a problem, or you
know, he has uh PTS or he's gota prosthetic and and they don't
they don't understand the tollthat that uh takes on the the
caregiver and then the childrenwho become caregivers and their
(24:40):
life is completely uh upended aswell.
And so um the you're right,there's there's so much uh focus
on the veteran, but verylimited focus on the family as a
whole or on the uh on the thecaregiver, the spouse.
So this is just uh an awesomeprogram that you have.
(25:01):
Um I also want to mention thatyou have a podcast, that you are
a podcaster.
Um I am, I am.
Yeah, well, it looked likeyou're doing an episode once a
month.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yes.
Larry Zilliox (25:12):
Oh, okay.
That is uh is it available onall the major podcast platforms?
Hannah O'Brien (25:18):
It it is, it is.
Anywhere you can find apodcast, you should be able to
find ours.
Larry Zilliox (25:22):
Okay.
Well, listeners, it's theVeterans Spouse Network podcast.
So you just look it up on yourSpotify or it's really easy.
Everything is the veteranspousenetwork.org or podcast, or it's
easy to find uh Hannah and heramazing group of uh folks that
are doing such fantastic work.
(25:43):
So please listen to thepodcast, go to the webpage, and
my regular niss listeners knowwhat I'm gonna say now.
It's like any other veteranservice organization.
When you get to the webpage,you're gonna look up in the
right-hand corner, you're gonnasee that red donate button.
So bang on that button, givewhat you can, five dollars, five
thousand dollars.
They need all the money theycan get.
These programs are not cheap.
(26:05):
Uh, you have to pay staff, andhopefully they are paying staff
a reasonable uh amount of money,not a nonprofit kind of money,
but money that they deserve fortheir um knowledge and skills,
uh and the kind of money thatthey would make in the community
if they uh were out uh out atanother organization or another
(26:29):
company or something like that.
So please donate, give what youcan, look at all the resources.
So there's a really robustresource page there that'll take
you to all sorts oforganizations that uh might be
able to give you uh otherassistance that they can't.
But check it out, take that URLand send it to family and
(26:51):
friends and people that you knowthat need to um connect with
the resources that areavailable, all the virtual
programs that are available.
We want to make sure that we'regetting the word out as as much
as we can.
So please spread the word, youknow, link to it, put it on your
social media.
That is really, really gonnahelp a lot too.
(27:12):
Anna, I can't thank you enoughfor joining us today.
I really appreciate it.
Hannah O'Brien (27:17):
Oh, we appreciate it too.
And thank you for you know, allthe directions to all the
amazing different resources,donations, um, our programs.
Yeah, just connect, whateverthat means to you.
You know, we want to hear fromyou, wanting we want to see you,
want to serve you.
Larry Zilliox (27:32):
Great.
Well, thanks a lot.
And listeners, we'll haveanother episode next Monday
morning at 5 a.m.
If you have any questions orsuggestions, you can reach us at
podcast at willingwarriors.org.
You can reach us on find us onall the major podcast platforms.
We're also on YouTube andWreaths Across America Radio.
So until then, thanks forlistening.
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