September 1, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode, we talk with Antonio Williams about the power of the N-word. He is the founder and president of Leaders at Work Consulting. Antonio Williams has worked in education for over 25 years as a teacher, a department chair, and a senior administrator. We spoke with him at the 2024 White Privilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This episode contains the use of the N-word in its entirety, a known racial slur and derogatory language to refer to African Americans or people who are identified as Black. Please note that this racial slur could be potentially disturbing content for listeners. Listener discretion is advised.
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Antonio Williams (00:08):
If I can say it, but then my white counterpart can't say it,
then the word never lost its power, right?
So therefore, is it reallya term of endearment?
So that's, you know, engaging thatconversation and really getting
people to understand that there arepeople that died and that was the
last word they heard when they died.
Sam Fuqua (00:25):
That's Antonio Williams, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with AntonioWilliams about the power of the N word.
(00:51):
He is the founder and presidentof Leaders at Work Consulting.
Antonio Williams has worked ineducation for over 25 years as
a teacher, a department chair,and a senior administrator.
We spoke with him at the 2024 WhitePrivilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
And please note that the N word is usedseveral times in this conversation.
(01:17):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:21):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:22):
Great to be here at the 2024 White Privilege Conference
in Tulsa with Antonio Williams.
Hello, welcome.
Antonio Williams (01:29):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Sam Fuqua (01:30):
Great to have you with us.
Alexis Miles (01:32):
So Antonio, let's just jump right in here.
You gave a talk aboutthe power of the N word.
So, could you tell us howyou developed this talk?
Antonio Williams (01:47):
I've been in education for at least 30 years, and I would
say for the last 16, 17, 18 years,for whatever reason, there's always
been some incident around the N wordwithin the school, within a school.
And what I decided to do, and a lot ofthings happened in terms of like, the
(02:09):
students would say, well, I didn't know Icould say that, I didn't know the history.
I was like, really?
Is this what we're saying?
But I didn't necessarily believe it,but how can you argue with someone
when they said "I didn't know," right?
You cannot prove that, unless youyourself had taught them that, right?
So, what I decided to do wascreate this presentation.
And, it started small when I wasdoing it in classes like specifically
(02:31):
around English classes and then somehistory classes and then it evolved
where I started doing it for entirehigh schools, entire middle schools.
Did it on a university, universitylevel, um, for faculty, staff,
so it, it kind of grew from that.
But the idea here is that I wanted tomake sure that people understood the
history and the power of the word.
A lot of people don'tknow the history of it.
(02:51):
Um, so that, you know, I show, givethem a variety of different examples
and talk about how it's very difficultto find an American classic, um,
that does not have the word in it.
So, you talk about those things andthen engage in the conversation,
do you teach about this word priorto engaging in that book, right?
And a lot of times that doesn't happen.
So now, people that look likeme or identify as me, as a black
(03:14):
man, that they're sitting ina room uncomfortable, right?
So now, they're uncomfortable, now you'retaking away from their ability to learn.
Because now they have to address andbe conscious of every time the word
is being used and deal with theiremotions that are happening because
you chose not to deal with it.
Right?
So, those, all of those thingssort of came into my mind.
That's sort of like why Idecided, decided to do it.
Alexis Miles (03:36):
And could you say more about how the word was being used?
Is this in a school setting and studentsare using it and/or it's also in
the literature of the history books?
Antonio Williams (03:48):
Yes.
So you have both, right?
So you have, you know, studentsthat say it to each other, you know,
African American or black studentsthat may say it to one another.
You have other students thatdon't identify as black that
actually say it to blacks.
So, that's one aspect.
Um, and then you have students that areof color that say it as well, right?
So, sort of addressingthat, that part of it.
(04:10):
Um, and really getting them to understand,the ideology behind that and the
history and why it should not be used,regardless of how you're spelling it.
Um, regardless of if you feel like itis a term of endearment, because the
reality is that if I can say it, but thenmy white counterpart can't say it, then
the word never lost its power, right?
So therefore, is it reallya term of endearment?
(04:30):
So that's, you know, engage in thatconversation and really getting
people to understand that there arepeople that died and that was the
last word they heard when they died.
So, kind of talk about it from that end.
Um, from the literature perspective,again, the, the infamous, you know,
Huck Finn, Where, you know, the wordwas used 219 times within the book,
(04:50):
um, and really, you know, addressingthat con, that conversation or having
that conversation around the wordand the history and the power of it.
And many times, teachersdon't talk about that.
And, and that's a problem, right?
So, I am a black parent, right?
And my child comes home and this wordis here and it's not been addressed
and not been talked about in some way.
I'm a little annoyed.
(05:11):
Now, I have to go back and kindof talk about it even more.
But, again, as a black parent,you do talk about the word, right?
Because for black parents, we know thatit's not a matter of if, it's a matter
of when my child is going to be calledthat word, because it's going to happen.
Sam Fuqua (05:26):
What is the history of the word?
I mean, I think there's a lot ofpeople listening who, you know,
understand it as a derogatory term,but don't really know the origin.
Antonio Williams (05:35):
So the word, it goes back to, like, even in Europe,
there's documentation where in 1587that the word was actually being used.
And it was actually more, it comesfrom the Latin term niger, right?
So for black.
So, it was really used as a wayto describe a set of people.
Right?
Because we were black.
So they used that word to describe us.
(05:56):
It wasn't until, I would say, the1800s until, um, abolitionists in, in
the South really was making headway.
And then the term became, developedpower because they wanted to ensure
that they squashed or killed any slaverevolt or possibility of revolts.
So, because now it becomes apowerful word, um, to kind of
(06:18):
des, dehumanize people, right?
So, that was the idea behind itso that they empower themselves,
um, in a way that blacks areconstantly looking at themselves
in a, in a derogatory way, right?
So, there's this mentalimprisonment that happens, right?
So, it's not just the physical andemotional imprisonment of slavery,
it's the mental component as well.
(06:38):
And that's a huge part because nowthat mental emotional gets passed off
from generation to generation, right?
So now there, we all, you know,our parents told us stories, right?
Tell us stories about theirchildhood, about how they grew up.
Those same stories passed downfrom generation to generation and
impacts how we raise each other.
Right?
So those, all of those thingskind of come into play.
Alexis Miles (07:00):
So, it sounds like you're saying the use of that
word objectifies a human being.
And that human and other people looking atthat human start treating them as if they
are less than human because of the word.
Because they become allof a sudden objectified.
Antonio Williams (07:20):
It's the ultimate insult.
And that insult took somany different forms.
You know, whether it'sa white person, right?
They would say, I remember growingup with hip hop, and if there was
a white person that liked hip hop,they would be called a wigger.
So, the white version of that.
Or, they would say, excuse mylanguage, they would say sand niggers,
right, to something along that line.
(07:42):
So, there's the ultimate insult thatpeople use that word for, and it's,
and it's so powerful in terms of thereaction that you will always get.
It doesn't matter, like, who it is.
There's a reaction thatwe all have physically.
You know, we are a little uncomfortable.
We feel it in our chest.
Regardless of how you identify, like,there's a reaction that you have.
(08:03):
And that there's really no other wordthat actually is able to do that,
other than that particular word.
The word itself, believe it or not,in the 1800s, um, 1700s, yeah I would
say 1800s, where slaves actually usedthat to describe each other, right,
because it was, some slave ownerswould call other slaves that particular
(08:24):
word because they looked at them asrebellious as they fought the system.
So, they talked about them and from thatperspective and would call them that, so
what ended up happening is that slaveswould call themselves that because of the
fact that it was almost like an honor.
Like, you're fighting the system,you're bucking the system and you're
rebelling, so now it's a positivething because I'm, now I'm calling
you that from a positive perspective.
(08:45):
So, that's one.
I'm not going to put it on here.
Um, hip hop person, right?
I grew up with hip hop.
And so I'm not going to put it on hip hop.
Hip hop gives it media.
Our social media is really the issueand not necessarily just hip hop.
Um, but social media, because when youthink about it, Red Fox, Archie Bunker,
we're seeing it in the 70s on TV, right?
(09:07):
And it was okay.
No one had an issue with it.
If even today, if you think aboutit, you know, there are shows
where you may hear that word on TV.
You may hear someone say that,but you won't hear any other
slur without repercussions.
The question becomes, why is itokay for this particular word to be
(09:28):
used, and without necessarily havingrepercussions, and it's not okay
for these other words to be used.
Uh, so there's, there'san imbalance there.
What is that, what really is that about?
And when you think about theword itself, the word has not
necessarily evolved, right?
There are now substitutesthat are happening, right?
So, when you think about, like, you wouldwatch, you know, CNN, Fox, or whatever
(09:50):
the case is, or any news, news station,and the people would say thug, right?
When you think about the word thug, forthem it was equivalent, because you start
thinking about what is, when you envisiona thug, it's the same envision that you
have when you hear the word nigger, right?
So, it's the sameideology, the same concept.
Or now, because people know they can'tsay that word because it's suicide,
(10:11):
professional suicide, so they're notgoing to say it, so they substitute it.
Or substitute it with DEI.
They substitute it with CRT.
There are ways that they're substitutingit in place of that, right, because it's
the same mindset and the same thing.
Alexis Miles (10:24):
I think people like Ron DeSantis, for example, would argue with
you, no, I'm not substituting anything.
No, I say what I want to say.
And how would you respondto someone like that?
Antonio Williams (10:39):
So, you want the Brooklyn version or the correct version?
So, there are really two versions.
So, the correct version, I shouldn'tsay correct, but the version that
I'm going to share, I would say,one, we knew this is who he was.
He showed that before he was electedand he was still elected, right?
So that's, that's one,it was, it was clear.
(10:59):
For me, he, I alreadyidentified him as a racist.
So, I'm not necessarily surprisedby anything that he says and
everything and anything that he'sdone during, during his office.
Because he's displayed itthe entire time, right?
So you, whether you want to get ridof all of DEI that's at University of
Florida or any other Florida school,you want to look at the African American
history class or the AP African Americanhistory course and say it's not okay.
(11:24):
Like, I'm sorry, since when does apolitician, you're not even an educator.
You don't have that background.
So how are you actually going tohandle that and, or critique it?
Alexis Miles (11:34):
What would you like to see happen regarding the use of that word?
Antonio Williams (11:39):
A couple of things.
One, I would love for, you know, us asa race where we don't use it, right?
'Cause it, it happens.
It's, it's used, you know, you'd mentionedhip hop and it's used in hip hop.
You know, I went to KRS-One concert lastSunday and, loved it, he was great, he's
always, he's on top, my top five all time.
(12:01):
And, I listened to his lyrics, 'causehe's just a great lyricist, and he
never said the n word, whatsoever.
Right?
And it's, and it's amazingto me, but now, the N word is
just in every hip hop record.
And why is that?
Right?
Because again, it sells, it sells.
(12:22):
Right?
Cardi B said that she did a song andI don't remember the name of the song,
which was not a, you know, it wasn'tderogatory in any particular way.
It wasn't cursing.
It wasn't sexual, hypersexual,and it didn't sell.
And then she ended up doingWAP with Megan Thee Stallion
and everyone had a, had a fit.
(12:42):
And she said, well, guess what?
When I did a good song or aclean song, you didn't buy it.
But when I did this song, you bought it.
So at some point, like, it's about money.
So, someone, someone is encouraging thebehavior and the mindset to say, okay,
this is, this is, needs to continue.
But the problem that is ultimatelyhappening is that they are, and I said,
(13:03):
said this to my daughter years ago, whichis, you have children that are listening
to this and this is their model, andthey have no other model around them,
and the impact and systemic oppressionfrom that just continues to build.
So, at some point we have to addressthat and have to engage in a conversation
to eliminate that in some way.
(13:23):
Again, I don't know how you caneliminate it other than just helping
them evolve in terms of their lyrics,right, because again the freedom
of speech is freedom of speech.
But, at some point you have to takeresponsibility of, in terms of what
you're saying and how you're saying it.
Sam Fuqua (13:39):
In terms of the how you're saying it, what if an artist
says, I'm, I'm saying it in the waythat one enslaved person said it
to another enslaved person who wasstanding up against the, the enslaver?
Antonio Williams (13:52):
I would push, I would push back and say,
you're an incredible lyricist.
You're telling me that you can'tfind other ways to say that, right?
You're a lyricist.
That's what you do.
You can find different waysto say something, right?
And you think about LaurenHill, she said something about
defecating on the microphone.
She could have said another wordinstead of defecating, but she
(14:14):
showed her lyrical genius bysaying that particular line, right?
So, it behooves them to say, okay, Ican write this, I can say this, but if
I say this in a totally different way,it shows my ability to be a lyricist.
So, there are things that youcan do that doesn't take away
from your ability to be an emcee.
Right?
It just enhances who you are andyour, and your ability, right?
(14:36):
And you actually have more respectbecause people would sit there like,
wow, did he just say it that way?
Or did she just say it that way?
Did they just say it that way?
No, there are ways to do that.
Alexis Miles (14:46):
So, I want to be absolutely clear.
What you're saying is the N word,nigger, hurts both black people
and people who are not black.
Absolutely.
Antonio Williams (14:58):
Absolutely.
I mean, clearly it hurts us verydifferently, but it does have
an impact on everyoneinvolved,right, without a question.
Alexis Miles (15:06):
I work in a bookstore, and frequently I'm called to be the
person to de-escalate tense situations.
I was recently called because an olderwhite man kept repeatedly saying, "nigger,
nigger," and they asked me to come up.
And he, he looked at me and said,"Your people say the word all the time.
(15:30):
How come I can't say it?
Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger."
He said it about ten times ina row and felt he was totally
justified in saying it.
Then the people around who heard it, whowere other white people, came up to me
to apologize, you know, for that use ofthe word and to express that they felt
concern for me hearing it, not realizingthat it also hurt them to hear that word.
Antonio Williams (15:56):
And, and, it's fun because we're having this conversation
and in that scenario and a lot of thosescenarios, the question that I have,
is it really the power of the wordor is it really, are we talking about
who has the authority to say the word?
Right?
Because he said it in terms of like,well, you people say it all the time and
he's mad that he could not say the word.
(16:18):
So, that becomes, that goes backto privilege and power, right?
So, that's a very differentconversation, um, in terms of,
you know, being able to say that.
Like, I can't say it, why can'tI say it when you can say it?
Right?
There's a level of power andprivilege that, you know, he's
thinking from, that he's bothered by.
Like, I cannot say it, that's not right.
I've always been able to saywhatever I wanted to say.
(16:40):
That's ultimately the question.
Like, who has the authority to say it?
Sam Fuqua (16:44):
So, I have said something when another white person
used that term in my presence.
Said, you know, that's derogatory, racistword, and I'm not comfortable with it.
But, I have not said anything when I'veheard an African American person use
it in my presence because I didn't feellike it was my place to say anything.
Antonio Williams (17:11):
You know, and, and you're not the only one.
Um, there are many peoplethat feel that way.
Um, you know, as an educator, thereare many, my white colleagues that are
educators that, you know, are concerned orfeel, are not comfortable addressing it.
But the reality is that you cansay something as simple as like,
I'm not okay with this word.
I'm not okay with yousaying it in front of me.
(17:31):
Like, it's not okay, and it's notokay because somebody else might
be upset by you saying it, right?
A simple, I am not okay, can stop it.
And it will say so much to everyoneelse around that you heard it
and you wanted to address it.
The bigger issue is the word being saidand no one says anything about it, right?
Because now it sends a message to everyother student that, oh, maybe it is okay.
(17:55):
Um, maybe you feel, maybe not, andI'm not saying that you feel that
way, but maybe you feel like it'sokay that it's being said, right?
When deep down you'renot okay with it, right?
And being able to articulateit is important and it really
doesn't matter who says it.
It's just, you don't have togo into this whole dissertation
about it, but just something assimple as, you know what, man?
(18:16):
I'm, I'm not okay with you saying that.
Sam Fuqua (18:18):
And my silence, nobody knows the reason for that, really.
Antonio Williams (18:23):
When there's silence, that's, and I'm not saying that you're
doing that, but people interpretthat as you're co-signing it, right?
And that's the idea.
Sam Fuqua (18:34):
We always ask our guests, picking up on the name of the
show, to tell us about a time whensomething went sideways for you.
What happened, what you learned, howyou responded, what you learned from it?
Antonio Williams (18:46):
My first year as a senior administrator, I had the luxury
of having my daughter in the same school.
And in her ninth grade year, you know,she graduated, she graduated 3.9.
She's a beautiful young woman,um, who doesn't do anything wrong.
(19:07):
Like, her integrity is out of the roof.
Better person than I ever will be.
And, uh, her mother and I try to giveher a drink every now and then, and
she's like, no, I'm not drinking.
And I'm like, what have we done?
But, nevertheless, um, you know,our family's Caribbean, you know,
her mother's from New Orleans, soit is in our genes to drink alcohol.
So, but, clearly it's not, uh, in ourchild, in our daughter's gene, but, uh,
(19:30):
but I'd say that to give you backgroundof who she is and just her integrity
and, and, um, and heart that she has.
So, in her ninth grade year,there was a young man in her math
class that called her the N word.
And as a senior administrator, yourresponsibility, just like any other
(19:52):
educator and adult in the school,is to take care of every child.
My, I'm having lunch.
My daughter comes downstairs to tell me,"Dad, um, I need something to tell you."
And I said, "Okay."
And she said, she tells me whathappened and then tells me that
the black kids who I have greatrelationships with are taking it upon
(20:16):
themselves because they attacked Mr.
Williams daughter, and they'recoming downstairs to kick his behind.
So, at that point, I have to protect theboy that called my daughter a nigger.
And, I remember having, I took him tomy office and left him there and then
(20:43):
eventually was able to get anotheradministrator to remove him from my
office and continue that process.
And it became a bigger issue wheremy relationship actually with another
senior administrator who's actuallyno longer there, our relationship will
never recover because of things thatshe said and that I had to respond to.
(21:04):
As one, for example, that hermother and I did not prepare
her to be called the N word.
And I had to remind her that as a blackman, a black family, we have to prepare
our child for that because it's not amatter of if, it's a matter of when.
And that, I had a relationship withthe child's family that called her
(21:28):
the N word, um, taught his sister, andgreat relationship with his sister.
And she said to the, the otheradministrator said to me that I
didn't take a moment to believethe other kid or to believe the
story the kid wanted, was saying.
And I looked at her and said, one,you clearly don't know who my child
(21:50):
is because my child doesn't lie.
That's not who, even if she was gettingin trouble, she's not going to lie.
She's going to tell me.
But then I also said to her, I said,"You know, you have two daughters, God
forbid, they came home and said a manmolested her, molested them or raped them.
Are you questioning anything thatyour daughters are going to say
(22:12):
to you at that moment in time?
Or are you going to believe it?
So, why would you ask me to questionwhat my daughter says to me?"
So, we kept going back and forth.
So, I say all that to say, what Ilearned from that, is that I'm a father
first, and I will always be a father.
(22:33):
And that, I should have tried mybest to find someone else to address
the situation, or move the child,so I can focus totally on my child.
I think that's probably what I learnedfrom it, but I don't regret what I did.
But if I could have a split second todo it again, maybe I would have been
(22:58):
able to find someone, um, I just thoughtthere were too many kids coming down
to kick this kid's behind, that I can'tstop all of them, but I can remove him.
Alexis Miles (23:08):
I'd like to back up for a second to make sure I
understood something you said.
Did you say with your daughter, you had orhad not had conversations with her to, to
prepare her for being called the N word?
Antonio Williams (23:21):
Oh, I definitely had multiple
conversations with her about that.
I think what, what really did it forher was that it was said by someone
that she thought was a friend.
Alexis Miles (23:32):
I see.
I see.
Antonio Williams (23:34):
So that's really what it boiled down to.
Alexis Miles (23:38):
Earlier you said that that's the one word where there
are no repercussions for saying it.
Um, other words are treated differently.
I believe I got that right.
Antonio Williams (23:48):
Hm-mmm.
Yes.
Alexis Miles (23:49):
Why do you think that is?
Antonio Williams (23:51):
Honestly, because you have, that word
focuses on one specific race.
Any slur against our Jewish community,our LGBTQ community, you have individuals
that are in power, that can be, thatare impacted and have the power and
persuasion and influence to makesure that something happens, right?
(24:13):
So, I think that's a huge part ofit, um, that there is power and
control over, over things thatsome of us we don't, don't have.
So, I think ultimatelythat's what it boils down to.
Alexis Miles (24:26):
I'm thinking about some of my friends, personal friends,
long term friends, who use that word.
And I have been uncomfortable with themusing it, but I rationalize not saying
anything, thinking, well, they holdthe word differently than I hold it.
I think, though, after this conversation,I'm going to start saying, "I'm
(24:50):
uncomfortable when you use that word."
Yeah.
Because I, for me, it has notbeen decolonized, the word.
It still induces trauma.
And until it can be legitimatelyreclaimed, I think I'm just going to
(25:10):
start speaking up and speaking out.
Antonio Williams (25:13):
I mean, and the unfortunate piece is that it continues
to be used in a derogatory manner.
It is continued to be used in a waythat creates, uh, feelings of terror.
Right?
Right?
It's a form of terrorism.
You know, the, we, I had anopportunity to visit Black Wall Street.
And I was able to speak withone of the descendants, who
(25:35):
owns, happens to owns a store.
And, he said just two weeks ago, someoneactually spray painted it on his window.
So, I don't know if we're evergoing to be in a place where
that word doesn't have power.
Right?
Because there are so many peoplethat are still using it in the
way that it was, they intendedto use it when it was created.
Alexis Miles (25:58):
And some of my white friends talk about just hearing
the word constantly at the dinnertable as they were growing up.
Even now, hearing the word.
Antonio Williams (26:07):
And that's not long ago, right?
So, when you think about it,like, that's not long ago.
So, I don't know.
Um, I don't have an answer for it.
I mean, it's, it's sad, uh, but Ireally don't have an answer for it.
Or like, even for, you know, our blackcommunity, like it's, I remember,
and I'm, I'm laughing because it'slike you, I have friends that say it.
(26:30):
And, I did a presentation, a presentationon the N word at Fairleigh Dickinson
University, actually earlier this year.
And, I put it on socialmedia that I was doing it.
And one of my friends, um, who, you know,we've been friends since 14, 15 years old.
So, he's my friend, uh, he's my brother.
So, he, he saw it and youknow, he responded accordingly,
(26:52):
but he said the word.
He said the word when we initiallystarted having the conversation.
You're like, I mean, I laugh because itwas like, it was actually funny, but it
was just like, it just reinforced theidea, like, I don't know if this word
is ever going to, going to go away.
Even though he knew, he knows thatI'm doing a presentation on the
history and the power and agreed thatI need to do this, it has to be done,
(27:16):
but nevertheless, he still used it.
Alexis Miles (27:19):
And I guess some people would argue, well, I'm just talking
like the people around me talk.
Antonio Williams (27:24):
So, then my question would be, do you use
any other slur or hateful speech?
Why do you use this one?
Alexis Miles (27:33):
Is there anything else that you think it's important to
share right now related to that word?
Antonio Williams (27:40):
I think one is, for those that don't identify like me, or
a black person, to find the courage tosay, it's not okay to say it, right?
And, to do their own research aboutthe history of it and the power of it.
For those of us that identified likemyself, do your research and understand
(28:05):
why the word would never lose powerand that somehow, some way there are
our own ancestors within this countrythat were terrorized by that word and
survived so that we could survive andso we could be here, but would they be
(28:26):
okay with you saying the word knowingeverything that, their experience?
Everything that was done to themaround that particular word.
Would they be okay with you saying it?
Sam Fuqua (28:38):
Antonio Williams, thank you so much.
Antonio Williams (28:39):
Thank you.
Thank you both.
Appreciate it.
Sam Fuqua (28:43):
Antonio Williams is the founder and president
of Leaders at Work Consulting.
He's worked in education for over25 years as a teacher, department
chair, and senior administrator.
We spoke with him at the 2024 WhitePrivilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
(29:10):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
(29:31):
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
(29:52):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.
org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(30:14):
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
If I can say it, but then my white counterpart can't say it,
then the word never lost its power, right?
So therefore, is it reallya term of endearment?
So that's, you know, engaging thatconversation and really getting
people to understand that there arepeople that died and that was the
last word they heard when they died.
Sam Fuqua (00:25):
That's Antonio Williams, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with AntonioWilliams about the power of the N word.
(00:51):
He is the founder and presidentof Leaders at Work Consulting.
Antonio Williams has worked ineducation for over 25 years as
a teacher, a department chair,and a senior administrator.
We spoke with him at the 2024 WhitePrivilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
And please note that the N word is usedseveral times in this conversation.
(01:17):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:21):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:22):
Great to be here at the 2024 White Privilege Conference
in Tulsa with Antonio Williams.
Hello, welcome.
Antonio Williams (01:29):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Sam Fuqua (01:30):
Great to have you with us.
Alexis Miles (01:32):
So Antonio, let's just jump right in here.
You gave a talk aboutthe power of the N word.
So, could you tell us howyou developed this talk?
Antonio Williams (01:47):
I've been in education for at least 30 years, and I would
say for the last 16, 17, 18 years,for whatever reason, there's always
been some incident around the N wordwithin the school, within a school.
And what I decided to do, and a lot ofthings happened in terms of like, the
(02:09):
students would say, well, I didn't know Icould say that, I didn't know the history.
I was like, really?
Is this what we're saying?
But I didn't necessarily believe it,but how can you argue with someone
when they said "I didn't know," right?
You cannot prove that, unless youyourself had taught them that, right?
So, what I decided to do wascreate this presentation.
And, it started small when I wasdoing it in classes like specifically
(02:31):
around English classes and then somehistory classes and then it evolved
where I started doing it for entirehigh schools, entire middle schools.
Did it on a university, universitylevel, um, for faculty, staff,
so it, it kind of grew from that.
But the idea here is that I wanted tomake sure that people understood the
history and the power of the word.
A lot of people don'tknow the history of it.
(02:51):
Um, so that, you know, I show, givethem a variety of different examples
and talk about how it's very difficultto find an American classic, um,
that does not have the word in it.
So, you talk about those things andthen engage in the conversation,
do you teach about this word priorto engaging in that book, right?
And a lot of times that doesn't happen.
So now, people that look likeme or identify as me, as a black
(03:14):
man, that they're sitting ina room uncomfortable, right?
So now, they're uncomfortable, now you'retaking away from their ability to learn.
Because now they have to address andbe conscious of every time the word
is being used and deal with theiremotions that are happening because
you chose not to deal with it.
Right?
So, those, all of those thingssort of came into my mind.
That's sort of like why Idecided, decided to do it.
Alexis Miles (03:36):
And could you say more about how the word was being used?
Is this in a school setting and studentsare using it and/or it's also in
the literature of the history books?
Antonio Williams (03:48):
Yes.
So you have both, right?
So you have, you know, studentsthat say it to each other, you know,
African American or black studentsthat may say it to one another.
You have other students thatdon't identify as black that
actually say it to blacks.
So, that's one aspect.
Um, and then you have students that areof color that say it as well, right?
So, sort of addressingthat, that part of it.
(04:10):
Um, and really getting them to understand,the ideology behind that and the
history and why it should not be used,regardless of how you're spelling it.
Um, regardless of if you feel like itis a term of endearment, because the
reality is that if I can say it, but thenmy white counterpart can't say it, then
the word never lost its power, right?
So therefore, is it reallya term of endearment?
(04:30):
So that's, you know, engage in thatconversation and really getting
people to understand that there arepeople that died and that was the
last word they heard when they died.
So, kind of talk about it from that end.
Um, from the literature perspective,again, the, the infamous, you know,
Huck Finn, Where, you know, the wordwas used 219 times within the book,
(04:50):
um, and really, you know, addressingthat con, that conversation or having
that conversation around the wordand the history and the power of it.
And many times, teachersdon't talk about that.
And, and that's a problem, right?
So, I am a black parent, right?
And my child comes home and this wordis here and it's not been addressed
and not been talked about in some way.
I'm a little annoyed.
(05:11):
Now, I have to go back and kindof talk about it even more.
But, again, as a black parent,you do talk about the word, right?
Because for black parents, we know thatit's not a matter of if, it's a matter
of when my child is going to be calledthat word, because it's going to happen.
Sam Fuqua (05:26):
What is the history of the word?
I mean, I think there's a lot ofpeople listening who, you know,
understand it as a derogatory term,but don't really know the origin.
Antonio Williams (05:35):
So the word, it goes back to, like, even in Europe,
there's documentation where in 1587that the word was actually being used.
And it was actually more, it comesfrom the Latin term niger, right?
So for black.
So, it was really used as a wayto describe a set of people.
Right?
Because we were black.
So they used that word to describe us.
(05:56):
It wasn't until, I would say, the1800s until, um, abolitionists in, in
the South really was making headway.
And then the term became, developedpower because they wanted to ensure
that they squashed or killed any slaverevolt or possibility of revolts.
So, because now it becomes apowerful word, um, to kind of
(06:18):
des, dehumanize people, right?
So, that was the idea behind itso that they empower themselves,
um, in a way that blacks areconstantly looking at themselves
in a, in a derogatory way, right?
So, there's this mentalimprisonment that happens, right?
So, it's not just the physical andemotional imprisonment of slavery,
it's the mental component as well.
(06:38):
And that's a huge part because nowthat mental emotional gets passed off
from generation to generation, right?
So now there, we all, you know,our parents told us stories, right?
Tell us stories about theirchildhood, about how they grew up.
Those same stories passed downfrom generation to generation and
impacts how we raise each other.
Right?
So those, all of those thingskind of come into play.
Alexis Miles (07:00):
So, it sounds like you're saying the use of that
word objectifies a human being.
And that human and other people looking atthat human start treating them as if they
are less than human because of the word.
Because they become allof a sudden objectified.
Antonio Williams (07:20):
It's the ultimate insult.
And that insult took somany different forms.
You know, whether it'sa white person, right?
They would say, I remember growingup with hip hop, and if there was
a white person that liked hip hop,they would be called a wigger.
So, the white version of that.
Or, they would say, excuse mylanguage, they would say sand niggers,
right, to something along that line.
(07:42):
So, there's the ultimate insult thatpeople use that word for, and it's,
and it's so powerful in terms of thereaction that you will always get.
It doesn't matter, like, who it is.
There's a reaction thatwe all have physically.
You know, we are a little uncomfortable.
We feel it in our chest.
Regardless of how you identify, like,there's a reaction that you have.
(08:03):
And that there's really no other wordthat actually is able to do that,
other than that particular word.
The word itself, believe it or not,in the 1800s, um, 1700s, yeah I would
say 1800s, where slaves actually usedthat to describe each other, right,
because it was, some slave ownerswould call other slaves that particular
(08:24):
word because they looked at them asrebellious as they fought the system.
So, they talked about them and from thatperspective and would call them that, so
what ended up happening is that slaveswould call themselves that because of the
fact that it was almost like an honor.
Like, you're fighting the system,you're bucking the system and you're
rebelling, so now it's a positivething because I'm, now I'm calling
you that from a positive perspective.
(08:45):
So, that's one.
I'm not going to put it on here.
Um, hip hop person, right?
I grew up with hip hop.
And so I'm not going to put it on hip hop.
Hip hop gives it media.
Our social media is really the issueand not necessarily just hip hop.
Um, but social media, because when youthink about it, Red Fox, Archie Bunker,
we're seeing it in the 70s on TV, right?
(09:07):
And it was okay.
No one had an issue with it.
If even today, if you think aboutit, you know, there are shows
where you may hear that word on TV.
You may hear someone say that,but you won't hear any other
slur without repercussions.
The question becomes, why is itokay for this particular word to be
(09:28):
used, and without necessarily havingrepercussions, and it's not okay
for these other words to be used.
Uh, so there's, there'san imbalance there.
What is that, what really is that about?
And when you think about theword itself, the word has not
necessarily evolved, right?
There are now substitutesthat are happening, right?
So, when you think about, like, you wouldwatch, you know, CNN, Fox, or whatever
(09:50):
the case is, or any news, news station,and the people would say thug, right?
When you think about the word thug, forthem it was equivalent, because you start
thinking about what is, when you envisiona thug, it's the same envision that you
have when you hear the word nigger, right?
So, it's the sameideology, the same concept.
Or now, because people know they can'tsay that word because it's suicide,
(10:11):
professional suicide, so they're notgoing to say it, so they substitute it.
Or substitute it with DEI.
They substitute it with CRT.
There are ways that they're substitutingit in place of that, right, because it's
the same mindset and the same thing.
Alexis Miles (10:24):
I think people like Ron DeSantis, for example, would argue with
you, no, I'm not substituting anything.
No, I say what I want to say.
And how would you respondto someone like that?
Antonio Williams (10:39):
So, you want the Brooklyn version or the correct version?
So, there are really two versions.
So, the correct version, I shouldn'tsay correct, but the version that
I'm going to share, I would say,one, we knew this is who he was.
He showed that before he was electedand he was still elected, right?
So that's, that's one,it was, it was clear.
(10:59):
For me, he, I alreadyidentified him as a racist.
So, I'm not necessarily surprisedby anything that he says and
everything and anything that he'sdone during, during his office.
Because he's displayed itthe entire time, right?
So you, whether you want to get ridof all of DEI that's at University of
Florida or any other Florida school,you want to look at the African American
history class or the AP African Americanhistory course and say it's not okay.
(11:24):
Like, I'm sorry, since when does apolitician, you're not even an educator.
You don't have that background.
So how are you actually going tohandle that and, or critique it?
Alexis Miles (11:34):
What would you like to see happen regarding the use of that word?
Antonio Williams (11:39):
A couple of things.
One, I would love for, you know, us asa race where we don't use it, right?
'Cause it, it happens.
It's, it's used, you know, you'd mentionedhip hop and it's used in hip hop.
You know, I went to KRS-One concert lastSunday and, loved it, he was great, he's
always, he's on top, my top five all time.
(12:01):
And, I listened to his lyrics, 'causehe's just a great lyricist, and he
never said the n word, whatsoever.
Right?
And it's, and it's amazingto me, but now, the N word is
just in every hip hop record.
And why is that?
Right?
Because again, it sells, it sells.
(12:22):
Right?
Cardi B said that she did a song andI don't remember the name of the song,
which was not a, you know, it wasn'tderogatory in any particular way.
It wasn't cursing.
It wasn't sexual, hypersexual,and it didn't sell.
And then she ended up doingWAP with Megan Thee Stallion
and everyone had a, had a fit.
(12:42):
And she said, well, guess what?
When I did a good song or aclean song, you didn't buy it.
But when I did this song, you bought it.
So at some point, like, it's about money.
So, someone, someone is encouraging thebehavior and the mindset to say, okay,
this is, this is, needs to continue.
But the problem that is ultimatelyhappening is that they are, and I said,
(13:03):
said this to my daughter years ago, whichis, you have children that are listening
to this and this is their model, andthey have no other model around them,
and the impact and systemic oppressionfrom that just continues to build.
So, at some point we have to addressthat and have to engage in a conversation
to eliminate that in some way.
(13:23):
Again, I don't know how you caneliminate it other than just helping
them evolve in terms of their lyrics,right, because again the freedom
of speech is freedom of speech.
But, at some point you have to takeresponsibility of, in terms of what
you're saying and how you're saying it.
Sam Fuqua (13:39):
In terms of the how you're saying it, what if an artist
says, I'm, I'm saying it in the waythat one enslaved person said it
to another enslaved person who wasstanding up against the, the enslaver?
Antonio Williams (13:52):
I would push, I would push back and say,
you're an incredible lyricist.
You're telling me that you can'tfind other ways to say that, right?
You're a lyricist.
That's what you do.
You can find different waysto say something, right?
And you think about LaurenHill, she said something about
defecating on the microphone.
She could have said another wordinstead of defecating, but she
(14:14):
showed her lyrical genius bysaying that particular line, right?
So, it behooves them to say, okay, Ican write this, I can say this, but if
I say this in a totally different way,it shows my ability to be a lyricist.
So, there are things that youcan do that doesn't take away
from your ability to be an emcee.
Right?
It just enhances who you are andyour, and your ability, right?
(14:36):
And you actually have more respectbecause people would sit there like,
wow, did he just say it that way?
Or did she just say it that way?
Did they just say it that way?
No, there are ways to do that.
Alexis Miles (14:46):
So, I want to be absolutely clear.
What you're saying is the N word,nigger, hurts both black people
and people who are not black.
Absolutely.
Antonio Williams (14:58):
Absolutely.
I mean, clearly it hurts us verydifferently, but it does have
an impact on everyoneinvolved,right, without a question.
Alexis Miles (15:06):
I work in a bookstore, and frequently I'm called to be the
person to de-escalate tense situations.
I was recently called because an olderwhite man kept repeatedly saying, "nigger,
nigger," and they asked me to come up.
And he, he looked at me and said,"Your people say the word all the time.
(15:30):
How come I can't say it?
Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger."
He said it about ten times ina row and felt he was totally
justified in saying it.
Then the people around who heard it, whowere other white people, came up to me
to apologize, you know, for that use ofthe word and to express that they felt
concern for me hearing it, not realizingthat it also hurt them to hear that word.
Antonio Williams (15:56):
And, and, it's fun because we're having this conversation
and in that scenario and a lot of thosescenarios, the question that I have,
is it really the power of the wordor is it really, are we talking about
who has the authority to say the word?
Right?
Because he said it in terms of like,well, you people say it all the time and
he's mad that he could not say the word.
(16:18):
So, that becomes, that goes backto privilege and power, right?
So, that's a very differentconversation, um, in terms of,
you know, being able to say that.
Like, I can't say it, why can'tI say it when you can say it?
Right?
There's a level of power andprivilege that, you know, he's
thinking from, that he's bothered by.
Like, I cannot say it, that's not right.
I've always been able to saywhatever I wanted to say.
(16:40):
That's ultimately the question.
Like, who has the authority to say it?
Sam Fuqua (16:44):
So, I have said something when another white person
used that term in my presence.
Said, you know, that's derogatory, racistword, and I'm not comfortable with it.
But, I have not said anything when I'veheard an African American person use
it in my presence because I didn't feellike it was my place to say anything.
Antonio Williams (17:11):
You know, and, and you're not the only one.
Um, there are many peoplethat feel that way.
Um, you know, as an educator, thereare many, my white colleagues that are
educators that, you know, are concerned orfeel, are not comfortable addressing it.
But the reality is that you cansay something as simple as like,
I'm not okay with this word.
I'm not okay with yousaying it in front of me.
(17:31):
Like, it's not okay, and it's notokay because somebody else might
be upset by you saying it, right?
A simple, I am not okay, can stop it.
And it will say so much to everyoneelse around that you heard it
and you wanted to address it.
The bigger issue is the word being saidand no one says anything about it, right?
Because now it sends a message to everyother student that, oh, maybe it is okay.
(17:55):
Um, maybe you feel, maybe not, andI'm not saying that you feel that
way, but maybe you feel like it'sokay that it's being said, right?
When deep down you'renot okay with it, right?
And being able to articulateit is important and it really
doesn't matter who says it.
It's just, you don't have togo into this whole dissertation
about it, but just something assimple as, you know what, man?
(18:16):
I'm, I'm not okay with you saying that.
Sam Fuqua (18:18):
And my silence, nobody knows the reason for that, really.
Antonio Williams (18:23):
When there's silence, that's, and I'm not saying that you're
doing that, but people interpretthat as you're co-signing it, right?
And that's the idea.
Sam Fuqua (18:34):
We always ask our guests, picking up on the name of the
show, to tell us about a time whensomething went sideways for you.
What happened, what you learned, howyou responded, what you learned from it?
Antonio Williams (18:46):
My first year as a senior administrator, I had the luxury
of having my daughter in the same school.
And in her ninth grade year, you know,she graduated, she graduated 3.9.
She's a beautiful young woman,um, who doesn't do anything wrong.
(19:07):
Like, her integrity is out of the roof.
Better person than I ever will be.
And, uh, her mother and I try to giveher a drink every now and then, and
she's like, no, I'm not drinking.
And I'm like, what have we done?
But, nevertheless, um, you know,our family's Caribbean, you know,
her mother's from New Orleans, soit is in our genes to drink alcohol.
So, but, clearly it's not, uh, in ourchild, in our daughter's gene, but, uh,
(19:30):
but I'd say that to give you backgroundof who she is and just her integrity
and, and, um, and heart that she has.
So, in her ninth grade year,there was a young man in her math
class that called her the N word.
And as a senior administrator, yourresponsibility, just like any other
(19:52):
educator and adult in the school,is to take care of every child.
My, I'm having lunch.
My daughter comes downstairs to tell me,"Dad, um, I need something to tell you."
And I said, "Okay."
And she said, she tells me whathappened and then tells me that
the black kids who I have greatrelationships with are taking it upon
(20:16):
themselves because they attacked Mr.
Williams daughter, and they'recoming downstairs to kick his behind.
So, at that point, I have to protect theboy that called my daughter a nigger.
And, I remember having, I took him tomy office and left him there and then
(20:43):
eventually was able to get anotheradministrator to remove him from my
office and continue that process.
And it became a bigger issue wheremy relationship actually with another
senior administrator who's actuallyno longer there, our relationship will
never recover because of things thatshe said and that I had to respond to.
(21:04):
As one, for example, that hermother and I did not prepare
her to be called the N word.
And I had to remind her that as a blackman, a black family, we have to prepare
our child for that because it's not amatter of if, it's a matter of when.
And that, I had a relationship withthe child's family that called her
(21:28):
the N word, um, taught his sister, andgreat relationship with his sister.
And she said to the, the otheradministrator said to me that I
didn't take a moment to believethe other kid or to believe the
story the kid wanted, was saying.
And I looked at her and said, one,you clearly don't know who my child
(21:50):
is because my child doesn't lie.
That's not who, even if she was gettingin trouble, she's not going to lie.
She's going to tell me.
But then I also said to her, I said,"You know, you have two daughters, God
forbid, they came home and said a manmolested her, molested them or raped them.
Are you questioning anything thatyour daughters are going to say
(22:12):
to you at that moment in time?
Or are you going to believe it?
So, why would you ask me to questionwhat my daughter says to me?"
So, we kept going back and forth.
So, I say all that to say, what Ilearned from that, is that I'm a father
first, and I will always be a father.
(22:33):
And that, I should have tried mybest to find someone else to address
the situation, or move the child,so I can focus totally on my child.
I think that's probably what I learnedfrom it, but I don't regret what I did.
But if I could have a split second todo it again, maybe I would have been
(22:58):
able to find someone, um, I just thoughtthere were too many kids coming down
to kick this kid's behind, that I can'tstop all of them, but I can remove him.
Alexis Miles (23:08):
I'd like to back up for a second to make sure I
understood something you said.
Did you say with your daughter, you had orhad not had conversations with her to, to
prepare her for being called the N word?
Antonio Williams (23:21):
Oh, I definitely had multiple
conversations with her about that.
I think what, what really did it forher was that it was said by someone
that she thought was a friend.
Alexis Miles (23:32):
I see.
I see.
Antonio Williams (23:34):
So that's really what it boiled down to.
Alexis Miles (23:38):
Earlier you said that that's the one word where there
are no repercussions for saying it.
Um, other words are treated differently.
I believe I got that right.
Antonio Williams (23:48):
Hm-mmm.
Yes.
Alexis Miles (23:49):
Why do you think that is?
Antonio Williams (23:51):
Honestly, because you have, that word
focuses on one specific race.
Any slur against our Jewish community,our LGBTQ community, you have individuals
that are in power, that can be, thatare impacted and have the power and
persuasion and influence to makesure that something happens, right?
(24:13):
So, I think that's a huge part ofit, um, that there is power and
control over, over things thatsome of us we don't, don't have.
So, I think ultimatelythat's what it boils down to.
Alexis Miles (24:26):
I'm thinking about some of my friends, personal friends,
long term friends, who use that word.
And I have been uncomfortable with themusing it, but I rationalize not saying
anything, thinking, well, they holdthe word differently than I hold it.
I think, though, after this conversation,I'm going to start saying, "I'm
(24:50):
uncomfortable when you use that word."
Yeah.
Because I, for me, it has notbeen decolonized, the word.
It still induces trauma.
And until it can be legitimatelyreclaimed, I think I'm just going to
(25:10):
start speaking up and speaking out.
Antonio Williams (25:13):
I mean, and the unfortunate piece is that it continues
to be used in a derogatory manner.
It is continued to be used in a waythat creates, uh, feelings of terror.
Right?
Right?
It's a form of terrorism.
You know, the, we, I had anopportunity to visit Black Wall Street.
And I was able to speak withone of the descendants, who
(25:35):
owns, happens to owns a store.
And, he said just two weeks ago, someoneactually spray painted it on his window.
So, I don't know if we're evergoing to be in a place where
that word doesn't have power.
Right?
Because there are so many peoplethat are still using it in the
way that it was, they intendedto use it when it was created.
Alexis Miles (25:58):
And some of my white friends talk about just hearing
the word constantly at the dinnertable as they were growing up.
Even now, hearing the word.
Antonio Williams (26:07):
And that's not long ago, right?
So, when you think about it,like, that's not long ago.
So, I don't know.
Um, I don't have an answer for it.
I mean, it's, it's sad, uh, but Ireally don't have an answer for it.
Or like, even for, you know, our blackcommunity, like it's, I remember,
and I'm, I'm laughing because it'slike you, I have friends that say it.
(26:30):
And, I did a presentation, a presentationon the N word at Fairleigh Dickinson
University, actually earlier this year.
And, I put it on socialmedia that I was doing it.
And one of my friends, um, who, you know,we've been friends since 14, 15 years old.
So, he's my friend, uh, he's my brother.
So, he, he saw it and youknow, he responded accordingly,
(26:52):
but he said the word.
He said the word when we initiallystarted having the conversation.
You're like, I mean, I laugh because itwas like, it was actually funny, but it
was just like, it just reinforced theidea, like, I don't know if this word
is ever going to, going to go away.
Even though he knew, he knows thatI'm doing a presentation on the
history and the power and agreed thatI need to do this, it has to be done,
(27:16):
but nevertheless, he still used it.
Alexis Miles (27:19):
And I guess some people would argue, well, I'm just talking
like the people around me talk.
Antonio Williams (27:24):
So, then my question would be, do you use
any other slur or hateful speech?
Why do you use this one?
Alexis Miles (27:33):
Is there anything else that you think it's important to
share right now related to that word?
Antonio Williams (27:40):
I think one is, for those that don't identify like me, or
a black person, to find the courage tosay, it's not okay to say it, right?
And, to do their own research aboutthe history of it and the power of it.
For those of us that identified likemyself, do your research and understand
(28:05):
why the word would never lose powerand that somehow, some way there are
our own ancestors within this countrythat were terrorized by that word and
survived so that we could survive andso we could be here, but would they be
(28:26):
okay with you saying the word knowingeverything that, their experience?
Everything that was done to themaround that particular word.
Would they be okay with you saying it?
Sam Fuqua (28:38):
Antonio Williams, thank you so much.
Antonio Williams (28:39):
Thank you.
Thank you both.
Appreciate it.
Sam Fuqua (28:43):
Antonio Williams is the founder and president
of Leaders at Work Consulting.
He's worked in education for over25 years as a teacher, department
chair, and senior administrator.
We spoke with him at the 2024 WhitePrivilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
(29:10):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts, and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
(29:31):
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
(29:52):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.
org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(30:14):
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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