June 27, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, we talk with Curtis Ogden and with Liz Broussard-Red about ways to organize people and strengthen local food systems in Mississippi and New England. This is the second in our two-part series, exploring how to deal with the conflict between a food system that has the capacity to produce enough food to feed everyone, and the fact that 47 million people in the US are food insecure. Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward of the Mississippi Center for Food Systems. Curtis Ogden is a senior associate with the Interaction Institute for Social Change, and the lead facilitator for Food Solutions New England. We spoke with them at the 2025 White Privilege Conference in Hartford, Connecticut.
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Curtis Ogden (00:07):
But when you get people to really sit down, and the benefit of
the work we get to do is around food.
So breaking bread is a naturalpart of, of what we do.
And you know, food and storytelling.
Our ancestors have been sittingaround tables for centuries, right?
Or some form of that, sharing food,having conversation, and you get to
know more, more about one another.
And you see each other beyond maybethe first assumptions you might
(00:30):
make, or if you only know somebodyin an official role and their
title, it makes you more curious.
That can go a long way towards creatingthe ground where you can hold tension
and still walk away with some respect.
Sam Fuqua (00:46):
That's Curtis Ogden, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with Curtis Ogdenand with Liz Broussard-Red about ways to
(01:12):
organize people and strengthen local foodsystems in Mississippi and New England.
This is the second in our two-part series,exploring how to deal with the conflict
between a food system that has thecapacity to produce enough food to feed
everyone, and the fact that 47 millionpeople in the US are food insecure.
(01:35):
Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward ofthe Mississippi Center for Food Systems.
Curtis Ogden is a senior associatewith the Interaction Institute for
Social Change, and the lead facilitatorfor Food Solutions New England.
We spoke with them at the 2025White Privilege Conference
(01:55):
in Hartford, Connecticut.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (02:02):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (02:03):
We're very pleased to be joined for this episode
of Well, That Went Sideways!
by Liz Broussard-Red and Curtis Ogden,both of whom work on food justice issues.
Regular listeners to the program willrecall that in our last episode, we spoke
with Alison Cohen and, uh, Liz and Curtis,Alison really gave us a good overview
(02:24):
of some of the structural problemswithin the food system writ, large.
So, we're really looking forward totalking with both of you about the
work that you're doing on the groundin New England and Mississippi.
Welcome.
Thank you for being here.
Curtis Ogden (02:37):
Thank you.
Liz Broussard-Red: Thank you for having us. (02:37):
undefined
Sam Fuqua (02:38):
And we're at the 2025 White Privilege Conference.
So, the first question some peoplemight be wondering is, what is the
connection between white privilege,anti-racism work and food justice?
And either of you can take that.
Liz Broussard-Red (02:50):
There are a, a lot of connections.
The work that I do with the Center forMississippi Food Systems, um, we're an
ecosystem of partners in Mississippiof, um, farmers and fishers and
teachers and, um, policy makers andcommunity members and nonprofits that
are all working together to transformMississippi's food systems and economies.
(03:11):
And, we've been really intentionalabout doing that work in a way
that centers our shared values,beliefs, values and principles.
And one of the values that guides ourwork is racial equity, specifically.
And that was incredibly important, um,to name that as a shared value in our
work because, uh, folks of color, blackfolks, indigenous folks, um, Vietnamese
folks, Latinx folks in Mississippi,bear some of the, bear the brunt of
(03:36):
our, of food insecurity in Mississippi,of wealth inequality, um, and a lot
of the issues that Mississippi faces.
You know, centering values in ourwork is also a way to build trust.
And so, to be explicit about our valueof racial equity helps us, kind of,
on that journey of learning together,um, and of trying to be better.
It helps, uh, grow our relationships, uh,to be able to build the power necessary
(03:59):
to change Mississippi's food systems.
Sam Fuqua (04:01):
Do you encounter any, I don't know if resistance is the word or, or
perhaps a puzzlement like, like, I'm justgetting involved to feed hungry people.
Why are we having to wade into allthis difficult racial justice work?
Liz Broussard-Red (04:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, this work has, hastaken some, it's taken us some
time to get to this point.
Um, so I'll share, you know, my journey.
I'm originally from New Hampshire.
Um, I went to school in Iowa.
Um, I ended up in the south and there'vebeen a lot of different spaces I've
been in where even personally kind,I've, you know, I've always been drawn
(04:36):
to food work, but I've seen this workfrom a lot of different lenses from
sort of, um, you know, uh, farm toschool work where the priority for
folks is really about healthy kids and,um, healthy families and nutrition.
Um, I've done this, done work withnonprofits that are really about
training farmers on new farmer practicesor diversifying what farmers grow.
(04:56):
There are so many, there have been somany different spaces I've been in where
people have, kind of, framed their missionand values in different ways, and there
have been a lot of disagreements along theway in some of the spaces that I've been
in about what should be prioritized oversomething else that, you know, whether
hunger should be the specific issue, um,or, or more broadly food sovereignty.
(05:17):
So yes, absolutely, there have beena lot of instances where conflict
has emerged from groups seeing eachother as, as, as pitted against each
other instead of us all, um, workingtogether towards a common goal.
Sam Fuqua (05:30):
So what are, what processes do you go through to, uh, to bring
people to that point of trust andrealization that it's all connected?
Liz Broussard-Red (05:38):
Uh, one thing that comes to mind is, you know, at an earlier
phase in my work, I remember reallybeing drawn to food as sort of this
like big tent issue, like an issue thatcould, that really anyone could engage
with and it would bring people together.
Um, but what hap, what happens sometimesis spaces that I thought were inclusive
because everyone was in the room,weren't actually inclusive because there
(06:00):
were voices in the room that were morepowerful than others, and there were
folks that still weren't being heard.
You know, for me personally, I, kindof, had to reflect about who I really
wanted to be in relationship with andwho I felt had common shared values.
One of the practices, yeah, that wehave used that was modeled in that
earlier workshop was, was story circles.
Story circles can be a powerfulway of really listening to one
(06:24):
another and hearing one another.
And, you know, we did it in, in theexercise earlier today, we had, um,
folks split off into groups of four.
Um, each person sharing, you know,no interrupting, but you, you know,
you deeply listen to the, um, personsharing with the prompt question.
And it's, yeah, it's, it's apowerful way to hear one another.
And, um, my co-steward, Noelle, wassharing about, uh, the roots of the
(06:46):
story circle being used, uh, you know,during the civil rights time to, to
help folks really, when there wasconflict for folks to really be able
to hear, um, and listen to one another.
Curtis Ogden (06:56):
We do know that story has been, uh, a part of a lot of
different social movements, um,throughout the world, uh, and this
way of engaging at the level of, um,relationship that sees each other not
in these roles, but as our full selves.
And so, we know that sometimes, uh,conflict is rooted in the ability to,
(07:16):
sort of, make abstractions of one another.
It's almost like we make cartooncharacters out of each other, and then
make a lot of assumptions and thatcan justify, I don't know, a catharsis
of anger or something like that.
But when you get people to reallysit down and the benefit of the
work we get to do is around food.
So, breaking bread is anatural part of, of what we do.
(07:37):
And you know, food and storytelling.
Like we've been, our ancestorshave been sitting around
tables for centuries, right?
Or some form of that, sharing food,having conversation, and you get to
know more, more about one another, andyou see each other beyond maybe the
first assumptions you might make, or ifyou only know somebody in an official
role and their title, it gives you,it, it, it makes you more curious.
(07:59):
Um, and so, that can go a long waytowards, um, creating the ground where
you can hold tension and still walk awaywith some respect, which is what Dr.
Moore, Eddie Moore, right, kicked off thisconference saying, he says, "We're fam!
We're family! Uh, and we're gonna get intoit and at the end of the day, we're gonna
be good, but we're gonna get into it." Andso, uh, creating those conditions is about
(08:24):
that love, that relationship, the story.
All of those things go a long way.
Alexis Miles (08:30):
And it seems to me, in this process that is predicated on
being totally honest and authentic andnot conceptual, so people are telling
stories of their direct lived experience,I'm guessing, in these settings.
And being listened towith no interruption.
I mean, how powerful is that?
Curtis Ogden (08:51):
Absolutely.
Well, it's interesting you saythat because sometimes when we
invite people into storytelling,you can see literally their wheels
turning, well, what should I say?
Right?
What should I say here?
What would be as oppo, and, and theinvitation we try to make is drop
down into here for those who can'tsee, I'm saying come down into the
heart, and what do you, what doyou feel like you want to share?
(09:12):
Right.
Don't, don't think through what is theright thing here, but what what wants
to come up right here because our, ourbodies, our heart sense, I think what is
around us and can guide us to, towardswhat we might wanna share in that moment.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Drop in below the neck lineinto the heart, into the gut.
Very helpful.
Alexis Miles (09:31):
Can you think of a story that you can share that was very
moving or instructional or meaningfulfrom the story circles about food?
Curtis Ogden (09:44):
I mean, there are so many, honestly.
You know, very recently, and I won't,you know, say her name, uh, but, uh, a
dear colleague who works in Oklahoma,uh, was sharing the story that she
still carries with her about growingup in poverty and being hungry.
And, I don't know what it was aboutthat moment, but I've known her for
(10:07):
a number of years and, um, you know,she's a "professional," uh, very put
together, and in that moment of justhearing her tell her story, it sort
of hit me at another level of what shehas had to do in her life to get to
where she is, and an aha about why shedoes what she does, because she does
(10:30):
it in a place that is very difficult,just like Liz and Mississippi, and yet
there's just a part of her experiencethat explains why she continues to be
this warrior for justice where she is.
So, that's recent and, you know,again, somebody I've known for a
while, but, but that story told veryvulnerably and with some emotion
(10:56):
really helped me see this person I'veknown for a while in a new light.
Alexis Miles (11:00):
And to your point, you earlier talked about that, the need
to bring our full humanity into thiswork, and not just conceptual ideas.
Liz Broussard-Red (11:11):
I was thinking about how we've been doing story
circles within our network, um, withour Mississippi Food Systems fellows.
These are groups of leaders.
We have a Mississippi Food Systemsfellowship program that works, um, across
central Mississippi, the MississippiDelta, Mississippi Gulf Coast, and
Choctaw, Mississippi, and we've been ona journey with the same group of, um,
fellows over the past five years as tonurture their leadership in this food
(11:33):
systems work, and build the type ofleadership that Mississippi deserves.
And, we've been reflecting on thepast five years of work and we've
used story circles to do that.
And, I've been amazed by theway that stories evoke memories.
And so, there are pieces of the pastfive years that I've forgotten and
pieces of how our relationships cametogether in the first place in these
(11:54):
story circles by hearing other peopleshare me, their own memories of me and
them first meeting me, it's helping mereflect and learn myself better and help,
help me see how far we've come togetherand we've strengthened our relationship.
So, there are folks that, uh, thathave been in conflict within that
group, but just through this storycircle process, um, there's been
(12:16):
spaces for, for healing and forgivenessand progression of relationships.
It's been really powerful.
Curtis Ogden (12:23):
And, you sharing that makes me think the last session that we
just did with Dr. Gabriela Pereira, uh,she was telling, um, the story of, of,
uh, black, indigenous, other people ofcolor, um, producers, farmers, and the
need to really reclaim stories because,of course, for generations, for certain
(12:44):
people, relationship to the land has meantslavery, has meant, you know, forced labor
of some kind, has meant not making anymoney, has meant, uh, physical, I mean
real physical toil, um, and mistreatment.
And so, uh, storytelling can also bea way of reclaiming a relationship
and trying to set it right.
Sam Fuqua (13:07):
Liz, can you say more about the work in Mississippi?
Like, what does it look likeday to day, week to week?
Liz Broussard-Red (13:14):
So, the Center for Mississippi Food Systems, um, includes
a few different groups that kind ofhave come together in this formation.
So, I mentioned the MississippiFood Systems fellowship,
that's the leadership pipeline.
Um, we also have the MississippiFood Justice Collaborative.
That's a group of nine organizationsaround the state that work with farmers
of color, black farmers, Vietnamese,uh, fishermen, indigenous farmers.
(13:36):
And then we have the Mississippi FoodPolicy Council that's been really
focused on, um, really people-centeredpolicy and kind of engaging communities
in imagining what policies couldlook like that would actually support
the wellbeing of their communities.
And so, it's a lot of relationshipbuilding work, I would say is a lot
of our day-to-day is, is figuring outhow to convene people in right ways,
(13:58):
and also to, kind of, model being inright relationship with each other.
It's a big part of the work we do.
Um, we also focus on narrativework, kind of, how we share our
stories and share our histories.
Focus on policy.
Work and visioning, kind of, whatfuture infrastructure for food systems
could look like in Mississippi.
Alexis Miles (14:17):
Is your work being impacted by some of the
current political movements?
Curtis Ogden (14:25):
Absolutely.
What's been happening to differentfederal agencies, the freezing of
aid, the pulling back of aid, wasdirectly felt by, uh, some producers,
farmers, especially small scale, uh,a lot that is built around farmers.
And, you know, there's beena, a growing interest in food
systems and local food systems.
(14:46):
A lot of that infrastructurewas funded through various kinds
of USDA grants and otherwise.
So that pullback has been, yeah,pretty devastating for many, many
people, and many, many institutions.
And the question is, of course, whatis the vision now for our food system?
Where do they plan oninvesting that money?
(15:06):
One can imagine.
Our hope was that wewould continue to see.
As the work in Mississippi and ourwork in New England is about, is
ensuring that small scale, mediumscale farmers and fishers can
make a living, not just scrape by.
That they're understood to be valuablecontributors to society and culture
'cause if we don't eat, we don't live.
(15:27):
And, increasingly adopting techniquesthat help to sequester carbon.
So, in terms of tending to climatechange or even reversing climate change.
I mean, these people are realcraftspeople, and we need more of them.
Alexis Miles (15:44):
So, it's not just an idea, an abstract, it's real.
And it impacts people abilities to feedtheir families, to have food themselves.
Is that correct?
Liz Broussard-Red (15:55):
Yeah.
Mississippi is, um, one of the pooreststates in the nation and one of
the most food insecure, and alreadythere are not enough, uh, resources.
You know, folks are, are severely,um, divested in, in terms of
schools, in terms of food needs.
So yes, I think this justmakes the issues even worse.
On the one hand, um, we were talking,um, having a conversation earlier
(16:17):
and, and, you know, in other ways, um,unfortunately, I think Mississippians
are also, kind of, accustomed to nothaving the kind of, uh, fed, state
and federal resources that are needed.
So, in some ways, you know, our,our, this doesn't change our work.
Um, you know, at the center we're,we still have the same commitments
that we did before, and we'restill gonna fight for the resources
that Mississippians deserve.
(16:39):
Whereas I, I think there's a, beena big shock factor in, in some
states and regions, in particular.
I think unfortunately a lot ofmississippians are kinda, this
feels like business as usual.
Alexis Miles (16:50):
And New England, is it a similar situation?
Curtis Ogden (16:52):
It is, yeah.
I mean, there's so much that dependson federal funding, uh, coming
through to support farmers and youknow, the infrastructure around them.
So, you know, we are a, a richerregion, so in some ways maybe
the shocks are felt more, right?
Uh, I'm not quite sure, but we, we areclear that the ripples will continue to
come, and we don't know where the otheraxes are going to fall and what the
(17:15):
plan is to fill in those, those gaps.
There are time delays in systems, sowho knows what's coming down the road.
And we already knew that hungerwas a problem in this country.
And the idea is not just to feed peopleany old thing, because we don't just
talk about rectifying hunger, but thereis such a thing as nutrition equity in
(17:36):
terms of who gets food that's not justcaloric, but that's nutritious, that,
you know, gets to all different partsof our bodies and gets us the minerals,
the vitamins we need, the nutrients.
Sam Fuqua (17:47):
So, we mentioned that we spoke with Alison Cohen and uh, they outlined
a lot of the structural issues, butjust to drill down into one structural
problem, you know, when I think of whatyou've just been talking about, both of
you, I just want fresh produce raised bythe black farmers of Mississippi or any
farmers of Mississippi to be in the schoolcafeterias in Jackson, or fresh seafood
(18:14):
caught by the Vietnamese fishermen to bein the cafeterias in Biloxi, you know?
And why can't that happen?
Liz Broussard-Red: Yeah, and it can happen. (18:23):
undefined
It can happen, and it has happened.
There have been programs thathave really supported that.
The Mississippi Farm to School Networkdoes some incredible work, trying
to encourage those connections.
Uh, what first brought me to Mississippiat the time I was serving with Food
Corps, which is, um, in that role, itwas really heavily trying to make those
connections between farmers and schools.
(18:43):
You know, um, schools have a very smallbudget to work with and purchasing food
to feed a lot of children, and they do.
Food service directors across the statedo an amazing job at feeding children
with the resources that they have,and to incorporate an extra hurdle of
having fresh produce that's harvestedfrom a farm that might not be chopped
to the right specifications already,uh, or delivered in quite the right way
(19:08):
that they're accustomed to collecting.
They're just logistics in therethat add, kind of, extra work
and in some cases, extra cost.
You know, we also, uh, know thatfarmers don't make, uh, a lot
of the money that is made off offood does not go to the farmer.
Um, and with our local farmers, we'relooking for outlets where they really can
make money from what they, what they sell.
(19:29):
And sometimes, uh, school districtswithout additional resources have a
hard time paying the value of what,um, fresh produce is really worth.
And there have been some incredible grantprograms that have helped fill in the gap.
States, um, across the country areinvesting in, uh, in farmers to make local
food purchases, seeing that it pays off inthe local economy, that those dollars will
stay, uh, within a state's local economy.
(19:51):
And there, there are so many benefits forchildren and families, um, that can come
from that, but it require, it requires,uh, uh, policies and, and extra funding
in some cases to make that happen.
Alexis Miles (20:03):
Could you say more about this?
Is there a disparity in, let'ssay food and nutrition outcomes
based on race and economics?
Curtis Ogden (20:15):
Just pure and simple.
Yes.
I mean, some of that may be changing alittle bit in terms of, um, demographic
shifts, but when, uh, Food SolutionsNew England, our network got started
about 14 years ago, uh, we were lookingnot just at ensuring that there was
more local, regionally produced food,but that everybody could have access
(20:35):
to it, that everybody could afford it.
And, um, we dis, disaggregated thepoverty rates by state, by race, and it
was pretty predictable that if you werea person of color, black, indigenous,
the rates were going to be higher.
In a place like New England, we have stillmore white folk than people of color.
And so, in aggregate you wouldsee more white people in poverty.
(20:56):
But again, when you break it downproportionally, you would see that there,
the suggestion is both race and classare pretty predictive of poverty and
other negative outcomes from systems.
So, uh, hunger, nutritioninequities, and the like.
Alexis Miles (21:14):
Some people say that that's because some people work hard
and, to ensure that their familiesare fed, and some people don't.
So, these inequities area result of lack of merit.
That we live in a system that's basedon meritocracy, and that if you don't
(21:34):
have food, if you don't have accessto nutritious food, it's your own
fault because you didn't work hard,you didn't do the right things to
ensure you had the money to get it.
Is that true or not?
Curtis Ogden (21:45):
I mean, there of course are differences between individuals.
Some work harder than others, but it's apreposterous statement to say that systems
don't have anything to do with this.
And, you know, Liz and her colleaguesare, are still confronting the legacy of
plantation economy, plantation economics.
You want to talk about whoworked hard on plantations?
(22:05):
And what did they get?
You wanna still talk about whoworks hard, you know, working class
Americans, and what do they get?
You don't look at the systems that,kind of, collude to keep them down.
Public housing not available.
You're trying to workthree different jobs.
You have to commute from far away.
Is there public transportation?
To say nothing of the traumas andthe psychology that gets passed
(22:27):
down generation to generationthat some of people also dismiss.
Right?
But they're not really, yeah, I,I just have to say either they,
they can't or they don't wantto think in terms of systems.
And of course, individual effort matters.
So, we don't want toget into an either/or.
And, there are extraordinarystories of people overcoming
incredible, incredible circumstances.
(22:49):
But is that what it should require?
And is that what it, which shouldrequire of certain people who
look a certain way or are of acertain socioeconomic standing?
I mean, basically we're sayingyes right now, in this country.
Alexis Miles (23:03):
And it does seem that nutritious food should be a human
right, a universal human right.
Liz Broussard-Red (23:11):
Yes, absolutely.
Alexis Miles (23:14):
What do you think people need to really understand
about food justice, food equity?
One of the things thatpeople can begin to consider.
Curtis Ogden (23:28):
I'll repeat some of the things I hear coming outta my mouth
at times with people, which is, itwould really be helpful if more people
understood that food is a system.
Doesn't just show up at the grocerystore or on your plate in a restaurant.
That there's a whole food web, food chainthat gets there, and it all has to work.
(23:48):
And, it may work, but it may notwork treating people's human dignity
along the way, and treating the, theEarth in such a way that it's gonna
continue to generate what we need.
So, I would start there thatfood is a system and, uh,
it's not just a conveyor belt.
It's built on humans.
(24:08):
And, uh, we gotta ask fundamentalquestions about their treatment
and how we're treating the planetif we have, uh, an interest in our
long-term viability as a species.
Liz Broussard-Red (24:20):
Yeah, I was also thinking about, um, food as medicine.
Um, Mississippi was home to oneof the, um, first community health
centers, um, in the country.
And, during the sixties when there weresick people going to hospitals, there were
doctors that, that had the wherewithalto think about, well, what do these,
what do these folks need to get healthy?
And, um, in many cases it was that theywere malnourished, that they didn't
(24:42):
have access to the food that theyneeded, and that still resonates today.
Um, a lot of sickness, um, resultsfrom not having access to quality,
culturally appropriate foods.
And so, just the connection between whatwe eat, and where that food comes from,
and our bodies, I think, is an importantconnection to make food as medicine.
Curtis Ogden (25:03):
Another thing I would just add is just to have,
help everybody understand that youdon't have to work in the sys, in,
in the system, the food system.
As an eater, you, you, you are a partof the system, and you, sort of, vote
for the kind of system you want withthe choices you make about who you
purchase from, uh, what you purchase.
(25:25):
Of course, some of us have morechoice than others or have to work
less hard, uh, to expand our choices.
That was one thing I was gonna say.
And the other is just our foodsystems are full of power.
And, uh, it gets very eyeopening whenyou ask yourself, so where is the power?
Where is the money in our food system?
(25:46):
So eyeopening for me to go to Mississippiand learn, you know, that the plantation
economy has morphed and essentiallyyou have now grocery chains that
are owned by a lot of those people.
It's, sort of, changed and what usedto be the, uh, rations given out at the
general store, uh, the plantation hasnow turned into like food stamps and what
(26:07):
you're allowed to buy at a grocery store.
And, there are too few of thosewith too few nutritious choices.
And, that's increasingly the casein a lot of places in our country,
uh, that are impoverished in ruralAmerica and, and urban America.
So history, Yeah, we're,we're part of that flow.
And those dynamics, manyof them are still with us.
Sam Fuqua (26:29):
Liz Broussard-Red and Curtis Ogden.
We appreciate your time today andwe really appreciate your work.
Thank you.
Curtis Ogden is a senior associatewith the Interaction Institute for
Social Change, and the lead facilitatorfor Food Solutions New England.
Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward ofthe Mississippi Center for Food Systems.
(26:52):
We spoke with them at the 2025White Privilege Conference.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
(27:15):
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
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And, we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
(27:40):
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website sidewayspod.org.
(28:03):
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
But when you get people to really sit down, and the benefit of
the work we get to do is around food.
So breaking bread is a naturalpart of, of what we do.
And you know, food and storytelling.
Our ancestors have been sittingaround tables for centuries, right?
Or some form of that, sharing food,having conversation, and you get to
know more, more about one another.
And you see each other beyond maybethe first assumptions you might
(00:30):
make, or if you only know somebodyin an official role and their
title, it makes you more curious.
That can go a long way towards creatingthe ground where you can hold tension
and still walk away with some respect.
Sam Fuqua (00:46):
That's Curtis Ogden, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with Curtis Ogdenand with Liz Broussard-Red about ways to
(01:12):
organize people and strengthen local foodsystems in Mississippi and New England.
This is the second in our two-part series,exploring how to deal with the conflict
between a food system that has thecapacity to produce enough food to feed
everyone, and the fact that 47 millionpeople in the US are food insecure.
(01:35):
Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward ofthe Mississippi Center for Food Systems.
Curtis Ogden is a senior associatewith the Interaction Institute for
Social Change, and the lead facilitatorfor Food Solutions New England.
We spoke with them at the 2025White Privilege Conference
(01:55):
in Hartford, Connecticut.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (02:02):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (02:03):
We're very pleased to be joined for this episode
of Well, That Went Sideways!
by Liz Broussard-Red and Curtis Ogden,both of whom work on food justice issues.
Regular listeners to the program willrecall that in our last episode, we spoke
with Alison Cohen and, uh, Liz and Curtis,Alison really gave us a good overview
(02:24):
of some of the structural problemswithin the food system writ, large.
So, we're really looking forward totalking with both of you about the
work that you're doing on the groundin New England and Mississippi.
Welcome.
Thank you for being here.
Curtis Ogden (02:37):
Thank you.
Liz Broussard-Red: Thank you for having us. (02:37):
undefined
Sam Fuqua (02:38):
And we're at the 2025 White Privilege Conference.
So, the first question some peoplemight be wondering is, what is the
connection between white privilege,anti-racism work and food justice?
And either of you can take that.
Liz Broussard-Red (02:50):
There are a, a lot of connections.
The work that I do with the Center forMississippi Food Systems, um, we're an
ecosystem of partners in Mississippiof, um, farmers and fishers and
teachers and, um, policy makers andcommunity members and nonprofits that
are all working together to transformMississippi's food systems and economies.
(03:11):
And, we've been really intentionalabout doing that work in a way
that centers our shared values,beliefs, values and principles.
And one of the values that guides ourwork is racial equity, specifically.
And that was incredibly important, um,to name that as a shared value in our
work because, uh, folks of color, blackfolks, indigenous folks, um, Vietnamese
folks, Latinx folks in Mississippi,bear some of the, bear the brunt of
(03:36):
our, of food insecurity in Mississippi,of wealth inequality, um, and a lot
of the issues that Mississippi faces.
You know, centering values in ourwork is also a way to build trust.
And so, to be explicit about our valueof racial equity helps us, kind of,
on that journey of learning together,um, and of trying to be better.
It helps, uh, grow our relationships, uh,to be able to build the power necessary
(03:59):
to change Mississippi's food systems.
Sam Fuqua (04:01):
Do you encounter any, I don't know if resistance is the word or, or
perhaps a puzzlement like, like, I'm justgetting involved to feed hungry people.
Why are we having to wade into allthis difficult racial justice work?
Liz Broussard-Red (04:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, this work has, hastaken some, it's taken us some
time to get to this point.
Um, so I'll share, you know, my journey.
I'm originally from New Hampshire.
Um, I went to school in Iowa.
Um, I ended up in the south and there'vebeen a lot of different spaces I've
been in where even personally kind,I've, you know, I've always been drawn
(04:36):
to food work, but I've seen this workfrom a lot of different lenses from
sort of, um, you know, uh, farm toschool work where the priority for
folks is really about healthy kids and,um, healthy families and nutrition.
Um, I've done this, done work withnonprofits that are really about
training farmers on new farmer practicesor diversifying what farmers grow.
(04:56):
There are so many, there have been somany different spaces I've been in where
people have, kind of, framed their missionand values in different ways, and there
have been a lot of disagreements along theway in some of the spaces that I've been
in about what should be prioritized oversomething else that, you know, whether
hunger should be the specific issue, um,or, or more broadly food sovereignty.
(05:17):
So yes, absolutely, there have beena lot of instances where conflict
has emerged from groups seeing eachother as, as, as pitted against each
other instead of us all, um, workingtogether towards a common goal.
Sam Fuqua (05:30):
So what are, what processes do you go through to, uh, to bring
people to that point of trust andrealization that it's all connected?
Liz Broussard-Red (05:38):
Uh, one thing that comes to mind is, you know, at an earlier
phase in my work, I remember reallybeing drawn to food as sort of this
like big tent issue, like an issue thatcould, that really anyone could engage
with and it would bring people together.
Um, but what hap, what happens sometimesis spaces that I thought were inclusive
because everyone was in the room,weren't actually inclusive because there
(06:00):
were voices in the room that were morepowerful than others, and there were
folks that still weren't being heard.
You know, for me personally, I, kindof, had to reflect about who I really
wanted to be in relationship with andwho I felt had common shared values.
One of the practices, yeah, that wehave used that was modeled in that
earlier workshop was, was story circles.
Story circles can be a powerfulway of really listening to one
(06:24):
another and hearing one another.
And, you know, we did it in, in theexercise earlier today, we had, um,
folks split off into groups of four.
Um, each person sharing, you know,no interrupting, but you, you know,
you deeply listen to the, um, personsharing with the prompt question.
And it's, yeah, it's, it's apowerful way to hear one another.
And, um, my co-steward, Noelle, wassharing about, uh, the roots of the
(06:46):
story circle being used, uh, you know,during the civil rights time to, to
help folks really, when there wasconflict for folks to really be able
to hear, um, and listen to one another.
Curtis Ogden (06:56):
We do know that story has been, uh, a part of a lot of
different social movements, um,throughout the world, uh, and this
way of engaging at the level of, um,relationship that sees each other not
in these roles, but as our full selves.
And so, we know that sometimes, uh,conflict is rooted in the ability to,
(07:16):
sort of, make abstractions of one another.
It's almost like we make cartooncharacters out of each other, and then
make a lot of assumptions and thatcan justify, I don't know, a catharsis
of anger or something like that.
But when you get people to reallysit down and the benefit of the
work we get to do is around food.
So, breaking bread is anatural part of, of what we do.
(07:37):
And you know, food and storytelling.
Like we've been, our ancestorshave been sitting around
tables for centuries, right?
Or some form of that, sharing food,having conversation, and you get to
know more, more about one another, andyou see each other beyond maybe the
first assumptions you might make, or ifyou only know somebody in an official
role and their title, it gives you,it, it, it makes you more curious.
(07:59):
Um, and so, that can go a long waytowards, um, creating the ground where
you can hold tension and still walk awaywith some respect, which is what Dr.
Moore, Eddie Moore, right, kicked off thisconference saying, he says, "We're fam!
We're family! Uh, and we're gonna get intoit and at the end of the day, we're gonna
be good, but we're gonna get into it." Andso, uh, creating those conditions is about
(08:24):
that love, that relationship, the story.
All of those things go a long way.
Alexis Miles (08:30):
And it seems to me, in this process that is predicated on
being totally honest and authentic andnot conceptual, so people are telling
stories of their direct lived experience,I'm guessing, in these settings.
And being listened towith no interruption.
I mean, how powerful is that?
Curtis Ogden (08:51):
Absolutely.
Well, it's interesting you saythat because sometimes when we
invite people into storytelling,you can see literally their wheels
turning, well, what should I say?
Right?
What should I say here?
What would be as oppo, and, and theinvitation we try to make is drop
down into here for those who can'tsee, I'm saying come down into the
heart, and what do you, what doyou feel like you want to share?
(09:12):
Right.
Don't, don't think through what is theright thing here, but what what wants
to come up right here because our, ourbodies, our heart sense, I think what is
around us and can guide us to, towardswhat we might wanna share in that moment.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Drop in below the neck lineinto the heart, into the gut.
Very helpful.
Alexis Miles (09:31):
Can you think of a story that you can share that was very
moving or instructional or meaningfulfrom the story circles about food?
Curtis Ogden (09:44):
I mean, there are so many, honestly.
You know, very recently, and I won't,you know, say her name, uh, but, uh, a
dear colleague who works in Oklahoma,uh, was sharing the story that she
still carries with her about growingup in poverty and being hungry.
And, I don't know what it was aboutthat moment, but I've known her for
(10:07):
a number of years and, um, you know,she's a "professional," uh, very put
together, and in that moment of justhearing her tell her story, it sort
of hit me at another level of what shehas had to do in her life to get to
where she is, and an aha about why shedoes what she does, because she does
(10:30):
it in a place that is very difficult,just like Liz and Mississippi, and yet
there's just a part of her experiencethat explains why she continues to be
this warrior for justice where she is.
So, that's recent and, you know,again, somebody I've known for a
while, but, but that story told veryvulnerably and with some emotion
(10:56):
really helped me see this person I'veknown for a while in a new light.
Alexis Miles (11:00):
And to your point, you earlier talked about that, the need
to bring our full humanity into thiswork, and not just conceptual ideas.
Liz Broussard-Red (11:11):
I was thinking about how we've been doing story
circles within our network, um, withour Mississippi Food Systems fellows.
These are groups of leaders.
We have a Mississippi Food Systemsfellowship program that works, um, across
central Mississippi, the MississippiDelta, Mississippi Gulf Coast, and
Choctaw, Mississippi, and we've been ona journey with the same group of, um,
fellows over the past five years as tonurture their leadership in this food
(11:33):
systems work, and build the type ofleadership that Mississippi deserves.
And, we've been reflecting on thepast five years of work and we've
used story circles to do that.
And, I've been amazed by theway that stories evoke memories.
And so, there are pieces of the pastfive years that I've forgotten and
pieces of how our relationships cametogether in the first place in these
(11:54):
story circles by hearing other peopleshare me, their own memories of me and
them first meeting me, it's helping mereflect and learn myself better and help,
help me see how far we've come togetherand we've strengthened our relationship.
So, there are folks that, uh, thathave been in conflict within that
group, but just through this storycircle process, um, there's been
(12:16):
spaces for, for healing and forgivenessand progression of relationships.
It's been really powerful.
Curtis Ogden (12:23):
And, you sharing that makes me think the last session that we
just did with Dr. Gabriela Pereira, uh,she was telling, um, the story of, of,
uh, black, indigenous, other people ofcolor, um, producers, farmers, and the
need to really reclaim stories because,of course, for generations, for certain
(12:44):
people, relationship to the land has meantslavery, has meant, you know, forced labor
of some kind, has meant not making anymoney, has meant, uh, physical, I mean
real physical toil, um, and mistreatment.
And so, uh, storytelling can also bea way of reclaiming a relationship
and trying to set it right.
Sam Fuqua (13:07):
Liz, can you say more about the work in Mississippi?
Like, what does it look likeday to day, week to week?
Liz Broussard-Red (13:14):
So, the Center for Mississippi Food Systems, um, includes
a few different groups that kind ofhave come together in this formation.
So, I mentioned the MississippiFood Systems fellowship,
that's the leadership pipeline.
Um, we also have the MississippiFood Justice Collaborative.
That's a group of nine organizationsaround the state that work with farmers
of color, black farmers, Vietnamese,uh, fishermen, indigenous farmers.
(13:36):
And then we have the Mississippi FoodPolicy Council that's been really
focused on, um, really people-centeredpolicy and kind of engaging communities
in imagining what policies couldlook like that would actually support
the wellbeing of their communities.
And so, it's a lot of relationshipbuilding work, I would say is a lot
of our day-to-day is, is figuring outhow to convene people in right ways,
(13:58):
and also to, kind of, model being inright relationship with each other.
It's a big part of the work we do.
Um, we also focus on narrativework, kind of, how we share our
stories and share our histories.
Focus on policy.
Work and visioning, kind of, whatfuture infrastructure for food systems
could look like in Mississippi.
Alexis Miles (14:17):
Is your work being impacted by some of the
current political movements?
Curtis Ogden (14:25):
Absolutely.
What's been happening to differentfederal agencies, the freezing of
aid, the pulling back of aid, wasdirectly felt by, uh, some producers,
farmers, especially small scale, uh,a lot that is built around farmers.
And, you know, there's beena, a growing interest in food
systems and local food systems.
(14:46):
A lot of that infrastructurewas funded through various kinds
of USDA grants and otherwise.
So that pullback has been, yeah,pretty devastating for many, many
people, and many, many institutions.
And the question is, of course, whatis the vision now for our food system?
Where do they plan oninvesting that money?
(15:06):
One can imagine.
Our hope was that wewould continue to see.
As the work in Mississippi and ourwork in New England is about, is
ensuring that small scale, mediumscale farmers and fishers can
make a living, not just scrape by.
That they're understood to be valuablecontributors to society and culture
'cause if we don't eat, we don't live.
(15:27):
And, increasingly adopting techniquesthat help to sequester carbon.
So, in terms of tending to climatechange or even reversing climate change.
I mean, these people are realcraftspeople, and we need more of them.
Alexis Miles (15:44):
So, it's not just an idea, an abstract, it's real.
And it impacts people abilities to feedtheir families, to have food themselves.
Is that correct?
Liz Broussard-Red (15:55):
Yeah.
Mississippi is, um, one of the pooreststates in the nation and one of
the most food insecure, and alreadythere are not enough, uh, resources.
You know, folks are, are severely,um, divested in, in terms of
schools, in terms of food needs.
So yes, I think this justmakes the issues even worse.
On the one hand, um, we were talking,um, having a conversation earlier
(16:17):
and, and, you know, in other ways, um,unfortunately, I think Mississippians
are also, kind of, accustomed to nothaving the kind of, uh, fed, state
and federal resources that are needed.
So, in some ways, you know, our,our, this doesn't change our work.
Um, you know, at the center we're,we still have the same commitments
that we did before, and we'restill gonna fight for the resources
that Mississippians deserve.
(16:39):
Whereas I, I think there's a, beena big shock factor in, in some
states and regions, in particular.
I think unfortunately a lot ofmississippians are kinda, this
feels like business as usual.
Alexis Miles (16:50):
And New England, is it a similar situation?
Curtis Ogden (16:52):
It is, yeah.
I mean, there's so much that dependson federal funding, uh, coming
through to support farmers and youknow, the infrastructure around them.
So, you know, we are a, a richerregion, so in some ways maybe
the shocks are felt more, right?
Uh, I'm not quite sure, but we, we areclear that the ripples will continue to
come, and we don't know where the otheraxes are going to fall and what the
(17:15):
plan is to fill in those, those gaps.
There are time delays in systems, sowho knows what's coming down the road.
And we already knew that hungerwas a problem in this country.
And the idea is not just to feed peopleany old thing, because we don't just
talk about rectifying hunger, but thereis such a thing as nutrition equity in
(17:36):
terms of who gets food that's not justcaloric, but that's nutritious, that,
you know, gets to all different partsof our bodies and gets us the minerals,
the vitamins we need, the nutrients.
Sam Fuqua (17:47):
So, we mentioned that we spoke with Alison Cohen and uh, they outlined
a lot of the structural issues, butjust to drill down into one structural
problem, you know, when I think of whatyou've just been talking about, both of
you, I just want fresh produce raised bythe black farmers of Mississippi or any
farmers of Mississippi to be in the schoolcafeterias in Jackson, or fresh seafood
(18:14):
caught by the Vietnamese fishermen to bein the cafeterias in Biloxi, you know?
And why can't that happen?
Liz Broussard-Red: Yeah, and it can happen. (18:23):
undefined
It can happen, and it has happened.
There have been programs thathave really supported that.
The Mississippi Farm to School Networkdoes some incredible work, trying
to encourage those connections.
Uh, what first brought me to Mississippiat the time I was serving with Food
Corps, which is, um, in that role, itwas really heavily trying to make those
connections between farmers and schools.
(18:43):
You know, um, schools have a very smallbudget to work with and purchasing food
to feed a lot of children, and they do.
Food service directors across the statedo an amazing job at feeding children
with the resources that they have,and to incorporate an extra hurdle of
having fresh produce that's harvestedfrom a farm that might not be chopped
to the right specifications already,uh, or delivered in quite the right way
(19:08):
that they're accustomed to collecting.
They're just logistics in therethat add, kind of, extra work
and in some cases, extra cost.
You know, we also, uh, know thatfarmers don't make, uh, a lot
of the money that is made off offood does not go to the farmer.
Um, and with our local farmers, we'relooking for outlets where they really can
make money from what they, what they sell.
(19:29):
And sometimes, uh, school districtswithout additional resources have a
hard time paying the value of what,um, fresh produce is really worth.
And there have been some incredible grantprograms that have helped fill in the gap.
States, um, across the country areinvesting in, uh, in farmers to make local
food purchases, seeing that it pays off inthe local economy, that those dollars will
stay, uh, within a state's local economy.
(19:51):
And there, there are so many benefits forchildren and families, um, that can come
from that, but it require, it requires,uh, uh, policies and, and extra funding
in some cases to make that happen.
Alexis Miles (20:03):
Could you say more about this?
Is there a disparity in, let'ssay food and nutrition outcomes
based on race and economics?
Curtis Ogden (20:15):
Just pure and simple.
Yes.
I mean, some of that may be changing alittle bit in terms of, um, demographic
shifts, but when, uh, Food SolutionsNew England, our network got started
about 14 years ago, uh, we were lookingnot just at ensuring that there was
more local, regionally produced food,but that everybody could have access
(20:35):
to it, that everybody could afford it.
And, um, we dis, disaggregated thepoverty rates by state, by race, and it
was pretty predictable that if you werea person of color, black, indigenous,
the rates were going to be higher.
In a place like New England, we have stillmore white folk than people of color.
And so, in aggregate you wouldsee more white people in poverty.
(20:56):
But again, when you break it downproportionally, you would see that there,
the suggestion is both race and classare pretty predictive of poverty and
other negative outcomes from systems.
So, uh, hunger, nutritioninequities, and the like.
Alexis Miles (21:14):
Some people say that that's because some people work hard
and, to ensure that their familiesare fed, and some people don't.
So, these inequities area result of lack of merit.
That we live in a system that's basedon meritocracy, and that if you don't
(21:34):
have food, if you don't have accessto nutritious food, it's your own
fault because you didn't work hard,you didn't do the right things to
ensure you had the money to get it.
Is that true or not?
Curtis Ogden (21:45):
I mean, there of course are differences between individuals.
Some work harder than others, but it's apreposterous statement to say that systems
don't have anything to do with this.
And, you know, Liz and her colleaguesare, are still confronting the legacy of
plantation economy, plantation economics.
You want to talk about whoworked hard on plantations?
(22:05):
And what did they get?
You wanna still talk about whoworks hard, you know, working class
Americans, and what do they get?
You don't look at the systems that,kind of, collude to keep them down.
Public housing not available.
You're trying to workthree different jobs.
You have to commute from far away.
Is there public transportation?
To say nothing of the traumas andthe psychology that gets passed
(22:27):
down generation to generationthat some of people also dismiss.
Right?
But they're not really, yeah, I,I just have to say either they,
they can't or they don't wantto think in terms of systems.
And of course, individual effort matters.
So, we don't want toget into an either/or.
And, there are extraordinarystories of people overcoming
incredible, incredible circumstances.
(22:49):
But is that what it should require?
And is that what it, which shouldrequire of certain people who
look a certain way or are of acertain socioeconomic standing?
I mean, basically we're sayingyes right now, in this country.
Alexis Miles (23:03):
And it does seem that nutritious food should be a human
right, a universal human right.
Liz Broussard-Red (23:11):
Yes, absolutely.
Alexis Miles (23:14):
What do you think people need to really understand
about food justice, food equity?
One of the things thatpeople can begin to consider.
Curtis Ogden (23:28):
I'll repeat some of the things I hear coming outta my mouth
at times with people, which is, itwould really be helpful if more people
understood that food is a system.
Doesn't just show up at the grocerystore or on your plate in a restaurant.
That there's a whole food web, food chainthat gets there, and it all has to work.
(23:48):
And, it may work, but it may notwork treating people's human dignity
along the way, and treating the, theEarth in such a way that it's gonna
continue to generate what we need.
So, I would start there thatfood is a system and, uh,
it's not just a conveyor belt.
It's built on humans.
(24:08):
And, uh, we gotta ask fundamentalquestions about their treatment
and how we're treating the planetif we have, uh, an interest in our
long-term viability as a species.
Liz Broussard-Red (24:20):
Yeah, I was also thinking about, um, food as medicine.
Um, Mississippi was home to oneof the, um, first community health
centers, um, in the country.
And, during the sixties when there weresick people going to hospitals, there were
doctors that, that had the wherewithalto think about, well, what do these,
what do these folks need to get healthy?
And, um, in many cases it was that theywere malnourished, that they didn't
(24:42):
have access to the food that theyneeded, and that still resonates today.
Um, a lot of sickness, um, resultsfrom not having access to quality,
culturally appropriate foods.
And so, just the connection between whatwe eat, and where that food comes from,
and our bodies, I think, is an importantconnection to make food as medicine.
Curtis Ogden (25:03):
Another thing I would just add is just to have,
help everybody understand that youdon't have to work in the sys, in,
in the system, the food system.
As an eater, you, you, you are a partof the system, and you, sort of, vote
for the kind of system you want withthe choices you make about who you
purchase from, uh, what you purchase.
(25:25):
Of course, some of us have morechoice than others or have to work
less hard, uh, to expand our choices.
That was one thing I was gonna say.
And the other is just our foodsystems are full of power.
And, uh, it gets very eyeopening whenyou ask yourself, so where is the power?
Where is the money in our food system?
(25:46):
So eyeopening for me to go to Mississippiand learn, you know, that the plantation
economy has morphed and essentiallyyou have now grocery chains that
are owned by a lot of those people.
It's, sort of, changed and what usedto be the, uh, rations given out at the
general store, uh, the plantation hasnow turned into like food stamps and what
(26:07):
you're allowed to buy at a grocery store.
And, there are too few of thosewith too few nutritious choices.
And, that's increasingly the casein a lot of places in our country,
uh, that are impoverished in ruralAmerica and, and urban America.
So history, Yeah, we're,we're part of that flow.
And those dynamics, manyof them are still with us.
Sam Fuqua (26:29):
Liz Broussard-Red and Curtis Ogden.
We appreciate your time today andwe really appreciate your work.
Thank you.
Curtis Ogden is a senior associatewith the Interaction Institute for
Social Change, and the lead facilitatorfor Food Solutions New England.
Liz Broussard-Red is a co-steward ofthe Mississippi Center for Food Systems.
(26:52):
We spoke with them at the 2025White Privilege Conference.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
(27:15):
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
And, we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
(27:40):
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website sidewayspod.org.
(28:03):
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.