October 4, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, we talk with Mary Zinn about strategies for having difficult conversations and about how engaging in conflict can help us learn and grow. She's been involved in conflict resolution for well over 30 years as an activist, educator, and mediator. Mary Zinn is also a member of the Well That Went Sideways! production team.
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Mary Zinn (00:08):
Collaboration makes all the difference, that when you really
want to hear someone else's thoughts,and you're not afraid that they
will undo whatever you believe in.
So, there's um, this mantra that I use,"To open your heart and be unafraid."
Sam Fuqua (00:32):
That's Mary Zinn, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with Mary Zinnabout strategies for having difficult
(00:55):
conversations and about how engagingin conflict can help us learn and grow.
She's been involved in conflictresolution for well over 30 years as
an activist, educator, and mediator.
Mary Zinn is also a member ofthe Well That Went Sideways!
Production team.
(01:16):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:20):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:22):
And we are really excited to have another member of the Sideways team
as our guest for this episode, Mary Zinn.
Hi, Mary.
Mary Zinn (01:29):
Hi, Alexis.
Hi, Sam.
Alexis Miles (01:31):
Hello, Mary.
Sam Fuqua (01:33):
Great to have you with us.
Mary, your, your passion for conflictresolution, I have to say, I don't know
anyone with more passion for this topic.
And so, I wanted to start by askingyou, where does that start for you?
How did you become so passionateabout conflict resolution?
Mary Zinn (01:52):
I believe it started when I met Liz Loescher who founded The
Conflict Center in Denver, Colorado.
It may have always been there, but Lizmade it possible for me to put it into
action through The Conflict Center.
My quick answer to why do I care aboutthis, the very quickest answer, would
(02:15):
be that I came from a dysfunctionalfamily, and maybe everybody comes from
a dysfunctional family, so it's my hopethat there was a better way to do it.
And I was really happy to know thatthere were people who taught the skills
around how to do conflict better.
(02:36):
When you first
Sam Fuqua (02:36):
started learning those skills, was there something that you
heard from Liz Loescher or, uh, anotherteacher that just made you go, "Ah ha!"?
So many things,
Mary Zinn (02:47):
so many things.
They emphasize listening.
And I know in a lot of what wehear today, there's this emphasis
about how important it is tolisten and what that really means.
How important it is not to betelling your story while you're
listening to someone else.
To really hear their story ortheir situation, their experience.
(03:10):
That is so hard for people to do.
It's really tough to listen withoutframing what you want to say in response.
Alexis Miles (03:21):
Well, Mary, what advice would you want to give people who really
want to learn how to listen better?
Mary Zinn (03:28):
Practice.
It's like anything else.
Practice and check yourself.
Am I listening or am I figuringout what to say to convince the
other person that I'm right?
There's so many steps, Alexis, to this,that knowing that you don't always have
(03:49):
the right answer, letting go of being theperson who's right, so that you can really
have a conversation about varying ideas.
More ideas than just yourown, or a right answer.
Collaboration makes all the differencethat you, when you really want
(04:09):
to hear someone else's thoughtsand you're not afraid that they
will undo whatever you believe in.
So, there's this mantra that I use,"To open your heart and be unafraid,"
and that's been a practice for me.
(04:30):
How do you do that?
How are you not afraid of what conflictmight turn out to be in a negative way
so that you can go into conflict, embraceit, look for the good outcomes that are
possible only because of the conflict?
Alexis Miles (04:49):
That's interesting that there is something
positive inherent in conflict.
Mary Zinn (04:57):
That's where the learning and the growth is.
If you think about it, um, even mothernature, I use this visual that the
tiniest seed comes up through theground, and it has to move things
out of the way to become a plant.
Everything can't stay the samefor that growth to happen.
(05:20):
And I believe we're all living inthat possibility of what can change
and what can happen if we're opento those possibilities, and working
with other people to explore them.
Alexis Miles (05:34):
So Mary, I am curious to hear a story from you about
one of the most profound changesor, or skillful resolution of
conflict that you've witnessed.
Mary Zinn (05:48):
One that I remember from mediation, Alexis, is the story of two
sisters who came into mediation becausethey'd gotten into a physical fight.
And, after they talked to each other with,with me at the table, they were able to
(06:09):
discover that it was, one of the sisterswas so hurt because her other sister
was giving so much attention to the newboyfriend that the sister was dismissed
or felt dismissed and no longer important.
(06:31):
It took that being together andhaving the conversation with
the whole heart to discover theyneeded just to hear, "I love you!
I still love you!
I haven't gone anywhere."
So, the change from the momentthey came into the mediation
(06:55):
furious with each other,
just the pivot of how they wereable to discover what was really
going on made all the difference.
I know that in these conversationsmiscommunication or lack
(07:16):
of information is critical.
So many times, people would say, ifI had only known that, and then they
can go on with the conversation.
Sam Fuqua (07:29):
Mary, I wanted to go back to something you said earlier about being
afraid to wade into conflict or to addressconflict and, and I'm that way often
too, I have been throughout my life,and part of getting over that for me was
understanding where that fear came from.
Have you done the, uh, thelooking back or the analysis to
(07:54):
determine why you had that fear?
Mary Zinn (07:57):
I suspect most of us are afraid to be shamed and diminished and
to look like we don't know what we'redoing or that we have the wrong answer.
So, one of the most challengingexperiences that I've had, and I
had it more than once, was beingin conflict with Liz Loescher.
(08:22):
She had an amazingly strong personality,and what I learned from her was that
no matter what the conflict was,if you have the skills, you can go
work with another willing person.
Some people are intractable.
(08:43):
Problems aren't, she taughtme, but the people might be.
So, if you have another willingcolleague or partner to walk through
the conflict and explore it with you,you can get to such a good outcome.
You can understand each other better.
And the conflict actuallyoffers that opportunity.
(09:06):
There was one time we had a staff retreat,and the issue of Liz smoking came up.
And she felt attacked.
She felt like we brought this upwithout giving her fair warning.
And later, maybe we'll talkabout surprising people.
(09:27):
Really not a good idea ina negative or conflict way.
So, anyway, she wanted to talk to meafter the retreat, and I was afraid.
I was just afraid tohave the conversation.
And having the conversation,and others like it, helped
(09:47):
me learn that I can do this.
I can get through these.
I can listen.
I can say what I need to say to be heard.
I can apologize if I really meanit, and choose to change behavior.
So, actually engaging in theconflict helps you grow the skills.
(10:11):
I wonder how many people are afraid andwhen you don't know that it's going to
be better after the conversation or afteryou move forward, you're afraid to try it.
It's too risky.
Alexis Miles (10:28):
I'm wondering about situations where one person is afraid,
but willing to move forward, and theother person is not willing to move
forward because they are afraid.
Mary Zinn (10:42):
Or for whatever reason, Alexis.
There are other reasonsperhaps not to move forward,
not to risk what might happen.
If there is a way to approach the personwho is more afraid or unwilling, and let
(11:02):
them know that the relationship mattersto you or the solution matters to you,
that you are not there to intimidate them,or shame them, or make their life worse
in some way, how can you engage them?
And it's probably rightback to listening, you know.
(11:26):
How can I hear your story without acounterattack, without hurting you,
regardless of what I'm feeling, sothat we can stay in the conversation?
It is challenging to stay in theconversation when you are listening
(11:47):
to things you really don't want tohear, and the other person needs
to say them in order to be heard.
Alexis Miles (11:56):
It reminds me of those situations where instead of focusing
on the matter at hand, or trying toget to the root of it, people start
bringing up things from 10 yearsago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
Mary Zinn (12:12):
They do, and there's a lot of garbage behind you that you may or
may not bring into the conversation.
You may want to keep the goal in mind.
What are we trying to do here?
What's the task?
Instead of all of those things that arepainful, how do we really move forward?
(12:38):
And not too fast, becausepeople need to be heard.
Their stories need to be heard sothat they can do maybe the healing
that they need to do to move forward,and to have agreements or changes
of behavior after the conversation.
And know that if it didn't workthis time, we'll revisit it.
(13:03):
We'll go back to it.
There's no problem with revisiting, goingback again and saying, "You know, part of
that worked for me, but all of it didn't.
So, let's make another adjustment."
Alexis Miles (13:17):
I like that approach.
It sounds like it can be incremental.
So, the resolution doesn't have tohappen all at one time, but the agreement
can be, "We're going to keep at this."
Mary Zinn (13:28):
We have, in our family, an agreement, I'm so glad you mentioned
that word, that over the years, we havelearned that we will hurt each other.
That will happen.
We will make mistakes.
There will be miscommunications.
And, we have figured out, took somedoing to figure this out, that we
(13:52):
don't hurt each other intentionally.
It happens accidentally, or withoutthought, or we surprise each
other by not sharing information.
Some of those things happenand somebody gets hurt.
So, now that we have agreed that itwould not be intentional, we can go
(14:14):
ask the other person, "What happened?"
"What was that?"
"That really didn't feel good to me."
"I find out that you're going tovisit someone and I'm not included.
What's that about?"
Maybe you take that tone out ofit and say, "What's that about?"
Knowing that there are answers, andwe will work it out, but I never did
(14:40):
this thing to hurt you on purpose.
Sam Fuqua (14:45):
That's very helpful.
What about coming back to another typeof person, a person who is reluctant
to talk about whatever is botheringthem or to say more about a conflict?
What techniques do you useto draw the person out?
Mary Zinn (15:02):
As you describe it, Sam, I do want to mention that
there are some conflicts and thepeople are not going to be willing.
And it's really important not to engagein an honest and open way with someone
who is not able to tell the truth.
(15:23):
In one mediation, we foundthat this particular man
really couldn't tell the truth.
And he was going through adivorce and he would offer, "Oh
yeah, I'll pay that bill," andthen the money would never come.
Or, "I'll pick up thekids," and then he wouldn't.
And he literally couldn't tell the truth.
So, a caution to say, knowwho you're dealing with.
(15:48):
You always want to trust thatthere's good intention, and you
want to watch to see the otherperson's choices and their behaviors.
So, once you've done that and you feellike there is a possibility to work
through this, the business of askingsomeone what would work for them,
(16:13):
starting with their position, we getreally confused about our positions.
I absolutely have to have this,instead of why I have to have that.
What are our needs?
So, if you can get to a person'sneeds, then you probably can work
(16:36):
toward accommodating them, as long asyou're also looking at your own needs.
I will mention that having afacilitated conversation, having a
mediator, will make a difference.
If you feel like you want supportand help with this conversation,
(16:57):
find someone who can do that.
These people are trained to do it.
And you might ask, if you wish, tobring a support person with you.
If you're feeling like you don't wantto do that alone, you can bring someone
with you, and so can the other party,so that the conversation can take place.
(17:19):
It's worth a try.
It's better than not havingforward motion, having the
problem escalate even further.
Alexis Miles (17:30):
How do you distinguish between a position and a need?
Mary Zinn (17:35):
Well, there's the story about the orange, and I
suspect all of your listeners haveheard this, but I'll retell it.
That, um, two people werefighting over an orange because
they both wanted the orange.
Ultimately, the positionis, I need this orange.
I have to have this orange.
(17:56):
And ultimately came to discoverthat one of them needed the orange
juice and the other one neededthe orange peel for the zest.
They didn't need the orange.
They had very specific needs.
And it would work out just fine if theycould discover, why do you need that?
(18:20):
How do you want to use it?
Why is it important in your life?
And how can I help you get there?
How can I help you do thatrecipe or whatever you're doing?
What can I do to support you inthat instead of being obstinate
about the orange that I must have?
Alexis Miles (18:42):
So probing, those kinds of probing questions that
you just named would be helpful.
Mary Zinn (18:48):
Right.
And knowing or believing that you willdiscover the solution or a solution is
really helpful because it's a treasure.
You go after it.
You look for it.
And it has truly been my experiencethat the solutions are out there.
(19:11):
And if you look long enough, hardenough and get some support, work
together, you will find them.
Absolutely.
That's been my experience.
Alexis Miles (19:24):
Well, I like how you characterize the solution
as a treasure, something thatpeople would want to experience.
And it seems that that might helppeople keep their eyes on the
goal, as opposed to just gettinglost in the past or in the weeds.
Mary Zinn (19:41):
Definitely.
And, I will offer one other idea.
I've mentioned it before, andthat is that surprising someone
can undermine your best efforts.
When you are able to share informationahead of time, people are less likely to
(20:03):
get triggered, less likely to escalateif they know what the situation is and,
and what the different aspects are.
So keep people informed.
Keeping information to yourself may feellike you're guarding something valuable.
(20:26):
On the other hand, if you're keepingsomeone in the dark, that will come back
to be less productive, to bite you insome body part that you don't want bitten.
Sam Fuqua (20:40):
So you have to have some level of trust there, or maybe you
just have to trust that you can takea risk in sharing certain things.
Mary Zinn (20:49):
Thank you, Sam.
Absolutely.
If you don't trust the person completely,can you get into the process enough
because you trust the process will work?
As long as you're dealingwith an honest person.
I still want to go back to that.
If they aren't able to tell you what theirgoals are or what their needs are, they
(21:11):
may need to do some thinking about that.
One of the tools that I found helpful,and I still do, is what we used to
call an I message, and the formula is,I feel, and then a blank line, when
something happens, whatever that is, andbecause, and then another blank line.
(21:35):
So, I feel hurt when someonedoesn't include me because I think
I'm a pretty valuable person.
That's a sample.
I took that I message and I useit in a little different way.
When something happens that I can'tcomprehend, and I can't see that it is
(21:58):
in my best interest, and I'm not happyabout, I use that I message to try
and figure out what I'm threatened bybefore I ever talk to the other person.
I try to figure out what's going onwith me, and sometimes that's enough.
I don't even need to go to the otherperson because I've figured out what
(22:20):
I'm feeling uncomfortable about.
And if there is something that needsattention, then I can have a clear
explanation to the other person.
What is really bothering me?
What am I feeling?
And it doesn't matter that thatperson is doing it, I would feel
(22:42):
that way no matter who does it.
If I'm going to be left out, anynumber of people can do that.
It happened to be this personI'm talking to in this instance.
And I just need to know thatthat's what's bothering me.
What a great piece of informationto have before you talk to someone.
Alexis Miles (23:04):
As I listen to you, it seems that it requires at least
some degree of self awareness.
Mary Zinn (23:12):
Yes, I would say that it does.
And a lot of people, I believe inthis field, study themselves, figure
out what's going on with them beforethey solve their own problems, perhaps
with family or neighbors, and beforethey help other people, you know.
(23:38):
You want to be sure as a mediatorthat your stuff, what's going on in
your head, doesn't interfere withthe process when you're helping two
other people talk to each other.
They're going to solve the problem.
They're going to figure it out.
Your job is to facilitate theirconversation and help them find
(24:00):
information to move them forwardand to open possibilities.
But if your stuff gets in the way,then that's counterproductive.
So Alexis, I would say yes.
And it's a learned skill.
So, you can learn how to keepyour voice low and slow to
(24:26):
keep things from escalating.
You can learn how to listenand how to speak without
threatening the other person.
I also want to go back to lettinggo because it's so important.
I believe that you don't assumethat you have all the right answers.
(24:50):
When you believe you have all the rightanswers, you're not really listening for
possible solutions from someone else.
And the story that I think besttells my letting go aha moment
was when my son Michael was born.
And, um, I kind of celebratewhen I'm giving birth.
(25:14):
So, there was, kind of, a potential party.
There were balloons and things likethat, but he came out really quickly
and he came out not breathing.
So that moment for me was letting go.
I was not a doctor.
I was not in charge.
(25:34):
There was literally nothing Icould do to change that situation.
And I had to trust that other peopleor the universe, the power of the
universe, would take care of Michaeland our family at that moment.
And the sensation, the physical sensationof letting go was so powerful that I have
(25:59):
found that in conflicts to let go of beingright is so important and productive.
It doesn't mean the otherperson is doing the same thing.
If you, or if I, can let go of beingright, then we can move forward
and discover ideas that wouldn'thave come out if I stand in my
(26:24):
position and am unwilling to move.
Sam Fuqua (26:28):
Mary, we've talked with other guests on the program about
the, the physical aspects of someof this, taking a pause, breathing.
I'm curious as to your observationsabout your own physical
being and what works for you.
Mary Zinn (26:46):
When you discover that your body will give you signals,
all you have to do is listen.
Again, it's, you know, paying attention.
If you start to sweat, your hands startto sweat, uh, your heart starts to go
fast, you turn, my face turns bright red.
So, it's a dead giveaway that if yousee me turn bright red, something's
(27:10):
going on and I can feel it.
I can feel the heat.
I stop myself at that momentand ask, what's going on?
What is happening to cause that?
There have been many times that Ihave had to say to someone, I need
(27:31):
a few minutes, something's going on.
I'm not sure exactly what it is, andI need a few minutes to figure it out.
I don't say we have tostop the conversation.
I may say I need until tomorrow.
And let's come back at that time.
(27:52):
So, I'm not saying I'm notgoing to talk to you anymore.
We're done here.
Because when you get that heated andupset, that's what you really want
to do is get the heck out of there.
If you can have the presence of mind andbody, listen to your body, and know that
you need to take some time to figure outwhat's going on so that you can proceed,
(28:16):
you can share that with the other person.
It's fine.
And it gives them permissionto do the same thing.
So take a break if you need to.
Alexis Miles (28:28):
Is that one of the reasons you said a facilitator can be useful?
Because they might notice reactionsthat people are having and be able
to slow down the conversation,do some probing of the reactions.
Is that part of what you meant?
Mary Zinn (28:44):
Definitely.
There are many, many skills aroundkeeping the conversation productive,
keeping people in the conversationwithout, uh, lashing out at each
other, which is not productive.
A skilled mediator or facilitator,how many skills they bring to
(29:07):
the conversation is so important.
And you'll notice themreframing questions.
So, someone asks a question and thefacilitator or mediator can help
the question be said in differentwords so that it can be heard by the
(29:31):
other person in a more receptive way.
They'll reframe questions, they'llback the conversation up as
you are asking questions of me.
You're revisiting somethings that were mentioned.
There are many, many skills.
And if people had themthemselves, they could do that.
(29:53):
When it is your own problem, it isreally hard to stay in a place that is
about how to handle the conversation,rather than how to get what I want.
So having someone elsecan be very, very helpful.
And, it also gives you a format, aroadmap, as it were, we need to do this
(30:20):
and this and this, and it sets someboundaries or norms about how we're
going to be in the room together, howto make this a courageous space, so that
you can tell your story, and you won'tbe attacked during this conversation.
That's an important safety assurance.
Alexis Miles (30:43):
I am curious about the varieties of conflicts that you've seen.
Mary Zinn (30:49):
That's funny.
When you say that, my head went to thevariety of conflicts I've experienced.
And certainly I've seena variety of conflicts.
In all of our lives, weexperience conflict all the time.
Talk about neighbors, um, peopleinteracting with the police.
I had the privilege of being afacilitator for conversations
(31:13):
between citizens and police.
Individual conversations where theyneeded to deal with an incident.
And interpersonal.
I never, um, did divorce.
I did family.
In fact, I was a little annoyed thatfamily law is what we call divorce
(31:35):
when family law or family issuesare so much more than divorce.
Certainly, people who arefamily in business together.
We did a number of those.
Or, or the staff that we taught how todeal with conflict in the workplace.
Those sorts of things, Alexis.
(31:55):
So there's this huge variety.
Again, without conflict, we won't grow.
We won't change.
So, the happiest of circumstancesis conflict everywhere.
Engaging in conflict to learn and grow.
As Liz would say, "What a concept!"
(32:18):
That's another one ofLiz Loescher's quotes.
Speaking of which, she used this quote,which I often bring to mind and encourage
others to use, "People are doing thebest they can given their givens.
(32:38):
You and I are doing the bestwe can given our givens."
My history plays the role of coloringeverything I choose, do, believe.
So I have to understand that peoplewith a different history, people who
(33:00):
grew up in a different family setting,people of different faiths, people
who grew up in a different country,there is no way they will come to the
same conclusion that I will come to.
And yet, I have the expectationthat they should agree with me,
because of course, I'm right.
(33:21):
Yeah.
So, knowing that other people's experienceleads them down the path that they have
taken, they're perfectly "correct," intheir conclusion, given their givens.
It's such an interesting way to look athow people come to different conclusions,
(33:46):
not because they're good or bad people,educated or uneducated, nice or not
nice, it has to do with their experience.
Sam Fuqua (33:55):
Mary Zinn is an activist, an educator, and a mediator
who's been involved in conflictresolution for over 30 years.
She's also a member of theWell, That Went Sideways!
production team.
(34:15):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
(34:36):
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
(34:57):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgment, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(35:20):
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
Collaboration makes all the difference, that when you really
want to hear someone else's thoughts,and you're not afraid that they
will undo whatever you believe in.
So, there's um, this mantra that I use,"To open your heart and be unafraid."
Sam Fuqua (00:32):
That's Mary Zinn, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with Mary Zinnabout strategies for having difficult
(00:55):
conversations and about how engagingin conflict can help us learn and grow.
She's been involved in conflictresolution for well over 30 years as
an activist, educator, and mediator.
Mary Zinn is also a member ofthe Well That Went Sideways!
Production team.
(01:16):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:20):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:22):
And we are really excited to have another member of the Sideways team
as our guest for this episode, Mary Zinn.
Hi, Mary.
Mary Zinn (01:29):
Hi, Alexis.
Hi, Sam.
Alexis Miles (01:31):
Hello, Mary.
Sam Fuqua (01:33):
Great to have you with us.
Mary, your, your passion for conflictresolution, I have to say, I don't know
anyone with more passion for this topic.
And so, I wanted to start by askingyou, where does that start for you?
How did you become so passionateabout conflict resolution?
Mary Zinn (01:52):
I believe it started when I met Liz Loescher who founded The
Conflict Center in Denver, Colorado.
It may have always been there, but Lizmade it possible for me to put it into
action through The Conflict Center.
My quick answer to why do I care aboutthis, the very quickest answer, would
(02:15):
be that I came from a dysfunctionalfamily, and maybe everybody comes from
a dysfunctional family, so it's my hopethat there was a better way to do it.
And I was really happy to know thatthere were people who taught the skills
around how to do conflict better.
(02:36):
When you first
Sam Fuqua (02:36):
started learning those skills, was there something that you
heard from Liz Loescher or, uh, anotherteacher that just made you go, "Ah ha!"?
So many things,
Mary Zinn (02:47):
so many things.
They emphasize listening.
And I know in a lot of what wehear today, there's this emphasis
about how important it is tolisten and what that really means.
How important it is not to betelling your story while you're
listening to someone else.
To really hear their story ortheir situation, their experience.
(03:10):
That is so hard for people to do.
It's really tough to listen withoutframing what you want to say in response.
Alexis Miles (03:21):
Well, Mary, what advice would you want to give people who really
want to learn how to listen better?
Mary Zinn (03:28):
Practice.
It's like anything else.
Practice and check yourself.
Am I listening or am I figuringout what to say to convince the
other person that I'm right?
There's so many steps, Alexis, to this,that knowing that you don't always have
(03:49):
the right answer, letting go of being theperson who's right, so that you can really
have a conversation about varying ideas.
More ideas than just yourown, or a right answer.
Collaboration makes all the differencethat you, when you really want
(04:09):
to hear someone else's thoughtsand you're not afraid that they
will undo whatever you believe in.
So, there's this mantra that I use,"To open your heart and be unafraid,"
and that's been a practice for me.
(04:30):
How do you do that?
How are you not afraid of what conflictmight turn out to be in a negative way
so that you can go into conflict, embraceit, look for the good outcomes that are
possible only because of the conflict?
Alexis Miles (04:49):
That's interesting that there is something
positive inherent in conflict.
Mary Zinn (04:57):
That's where the learning and the growth is.
If you think about it, um, even mothernature, I use this visual that the
tiniest seed comes up through theground, and it has to move things
out of the way to become a plant.
Everything can't stay the samefor that growth to happen.
(05:20):
And I believe we're all living inthat possibility of what can change
and what can happen if we're opento those possibilities, and working
with other people to explore them.
Alexis Miles (05:34):
So Mary, I am curious to hear a story from you about
one of the most profound changesor, or skillful resolution of
conflict that you've witnessed.
Mary Zinn (05:48):
One that I remember from mediation, Alexis, is the story of two
sisters who came into mediation becausethey'd gotten into a physical fight.
And, after they talked to each other with,with me at the table, they were able to
(06:09):
discover that it was, one of the sisterswas so hurt because her other sister
was giving so much attention to the newboyfriend that the sister was dismissed
or felt dismissed and no longer important.
(06:31):
It took that being together andhaving the conversation with
the whole heart to discover theyneeded just to hear, "I love you!
I still love you!
I haven't gone anywhere."
So, the change from the momentthey came into the mediation
(06:55):
furious with each other,
just the pivot of how they wereable to discover what was really
going on made all the difference.
I know that in these conversationsmiscommunication or lack
(07:16):
of information is critical.
So many times, people would say, ifI had only known that, and then they
can go on with the conversation.
Sam Fuqua (07:29):
Mary, I wanted to go back to something you said earlier about being
afraid to wade into conflict or to addressconflict and, and I'm that way often
too, I have been throughout my life,and part of getting over that for me was
understanding where that fear came from.
Have you done the, uh, thelooking back or the analysis to
(07:54):
determine why you had that fear?
Mary Zinn (07:57):
I suspect most of us are afraid to be shamed and diminished and
to look like we don't know what we'redoing or that we have the wrong answer.
So, one of the most challengingexperiences that I've had, and I
had it more than once, was beingin conflict with Liz Loescher.
(08:22):
She had an amazingly strong personality,and what I learned from her was that
no matter what the conflict was,if you have the skills, you can go
work with another willing person.
Some people are intractable.
(08:43):
Problems aren't, she taughtme, but the people might be.
So, if you have another willingcolleague or partner to walk through
the conflict and explore it with you,you can get to such a good outcome.
You can understand each other better.
And the conflict actuallyoffers that opportunity.
(09:06):
There was one time we had a staff retreat,and the issue of Liz smoking came up.
And she felt attacked.
She felt like we brought this upwithout giving her fair warning.
And later, maybe we'll talkabout surprising people.
(09:27):
Really not a good idea ina negative or conflict way.
So, anyway, she wanted to talk to meafter the retreat, and I was afraid.
I was just afraid tohave the conversation.
And having the conversation,and others like it, helped
(09:47):
me learn that I can do this.
I can get through these.
I can listen.
I can say what I need to say to be heard.
I can apologize if I really meanit, and choose to change behavior.
So, actually engaging in theconflict helps you grow the skills.
(10:11):
I wonder how many people are afraid andwhen you don't know that it's going to
be better after the conversation or afteryou move forward, you're afraid to try it.
It's too risky.
Alexis Miles (10:28):
I'm wondering about situations where one person is afraid,
but willing to move forward, and theother person is not willing to move
forward because they are afraid.
Mary Zinn (10:42):
Or for whatever reason, Alexis.
There are other reasonsperhaps not to move forward,
not to risk what might happen.
If there is a way to approach the personwho is more afraid or unwilling, and let
(11:02):
them know that the relationship mattersto you or the solution matters to you,
that you are not there to intimidate them,or shame them, or make their life worse
in some way, how can you engage them?
And it's probably rightback to listening, you know.
(11:26):
How can I hear your story without acounterattack, without hurting you,
regardless of what I'm feeling, sothat we can stay in the conversation?
It is challenging to stay in theconversation when you are listening
(11:47):
to things you really don't want tohear, and the other person needs
to say them in order to be heard.
Alexis Miles (11:56):
It reminds me of those situations where instead of focusing
on the matter at hand, or trying toget to the root of it, people start
bringing up things from 10 yearsago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago.
Mary Zinn (12:12):
They do, and there's a lot of garbage behind you that you may or
may not bring into the conversation.
You may want to keep the goal in mind.
What are we trying to do here?
What's the task?
Instead of all of those things that arepainful, how do we really move forward?
(12:38):
And not too fast, becausepeople need to be heard.
Their stories need to be heard sothat they can do maybe the healing
that they need to do to move forward,and to have agreements or changes
of behavior after the conversation.
And know that if it didn't workthis time, we'll revisit it.
(13:03):
We'll go back to it.
There's no problem with revisiting, goingback again and saying, "You know, part of
that worked for me, but all of it didn't.
So, let's make another adjustment."
Alexis Miles (13:17):
I like that approach.
It sounds like it can be incremental.
So, the resolution doesn't have tohappen all at one time, but the agreement
can be, "We're going to keep at this."
Mary Zinn (13:28):
We have, in our family, an agreement, I'm so glad you mentioned
that word, that over the years, we havelearned that we will hurt each other.
That will happen.
We will make mistakes.
There will be miscommunications.
And, we have figured out, took somedoing to figure this out, that we
(13:52):
don't hurt each other intentionally.
It happens accidentally, or withoutthought, or we surprise each
other by not sharing information.
Some of those things happenand somebody gets hurt.
So, now that we have agreed that itwould not be intentional, we can go
(14:14):
ask the other person, "What happened?"
"What was that?"
"That really didn't feel good to me."
"I find out that you're going tovisit someone and I'm not included.
What's that about?"
Maybe you take that tone out ofit and say, "What's that about?"
Knowing that there are answers, andwe will work it out, but I never did
(14:40):
this thing to hurt you on purpose.
Sam Fuqua (14:45):
That's very helpful.
What about coming back to another typeof person, a person who is reluctant
to talk about whatever is botheringthem or to say more about a conflict?
What techniques do you useto draw the person out?
Mary Zinn (15:02):
As you describe it, Sam, I do want to mention that
there are some conflicts and thepeople are not going to be willing.
And it's really important not to engagein an honest and open way with someone
who is not able to tell the truth.
(15:23):
In one mediation, we foundthat this particular man
really couldn't tell the truth.
And he was going through adivorce and he would offer, "Oh
yeah, I'll pay that bill," andthen the money would never come.
Or, "I'll pick up thekids," and then he wouldn't.
And he literally couldn't tell the truth.
So, a caution to say, knowwho you're dealing with.
(15:48):
You always want to trust thatthere's good intention, and you
want to watch to see the otherperson's choices and their behaviors.
So, once you've done that and you feellike there is a possibility to work
through this, the business of askingsomeone what would work for them,
(16:13):
starting with their position, we getreally confused about our positions.
I absolutely have to have this,instead of why I have to have that.
What are our needs?
So, if you can get to a person'sneeds, then you probably can work
(16:36):
toward accommodating them, as long asyou're also looking at your own needs.
I will mention that having afacilitated conversation, having a
mediator, will make a difference.
If you feel like you want supportand help with this conversation,
(16:57):
find someone who can do that.
These people are trained to do it.
And you might ask, if you wish, tobring a support person with you.
If you're feeling like you don't wantto do that alone, you can bring someone
with you, and so can the other party,so that the conversation can take place.
(17:19):
It's worth a try.
It's better than not havingforward motion, having the
problem escalate even further.
Alexis Miles (17:30):
How do you distinguish between a position and a need?
Mary Zinn (17:35):
Well, there's the story about the orange, and I
suspect all of your listeners haveheard this, but I'll retell it.
That, um, two people werefighting over an orange because
they both wanted the orange.
Ultimately, the positionis, I need this orange.
I have to have this orange.
(17:56):
And ultimately came to discoverthat one of them needed the orange
juice and the other one neededthe orange peel for the zest.
They didn't need the orange.
They had very specific needs.
And it would work out just fine if theycould discover, why do you need that?
(18:20):
How do you want to use it?
Why is it important in your life?
And how can I help you get there?
How can I help you do thatrecipe or whatever you're doing?
What can I do to support you inthat instead of being obstinate
about the orange that I must have?
Alexis Miles (18:42):
So probing, those kinds of probing questions that
you just named would be helpful.
Mary Zinn (18:48):
Right.
And knowing or believing that you willdiscover the solution or a solution is
really helpful because it's a treasure.
You go after it.
You look for it.
And it has truly been my experiencethat the solutions are out there.
(19:11):
And if you look long enough, hardenough and get some support, work
together, you will find them.
Absolutely.
That's been my experience.
Alexis Miles (19:24):
Well, I like how you characterize the solution
as a treasure, something thatpeople would want to experience.
And it seems that that might helppeople keep their eyes on the
goal, as opposed to just gettinglost in the past or in the weeds.
Mary Zinn (19:41):
Definitely.
And, I will offer one other idea.
I've mentioned it before, andthat is that surprising someone
can undermine your best efforts.
When you are able to share informationahead of time, people are less likely to
(20:03):
get triggered, less likely to escalateif they know what the situation is and,
and what the different aspects are.
So keep people informed.
Keeping information to yourself may feellike you're guarding something valuable.
(20:26):
On the other hand, if you're keepingsomeone in the dark, that will come back
to be less productive, to bite you insome body part that you don't want bitten.
Sam Fuqua (20:40):
So you have to have some level of trust there, or maybe you
just have to trust that you can takea risk in sharing certain things.
Mary Zinn (20:49):
Thank you, Sam.
Absolutely.
If you don't trust the person completely,can you get into the process enough
because you trust the process will work?
As long as you're dealingwith an honest person.
I still want to go back to that.
If they aren't able to tell you what theirgoals are or what their needs are, they
(21:11):
may need to do some thinking about that.
One of the tools that I found helpful,and I still do, is what we used to
call an I message, and the formula is,I feel, and then a blank line, when
something happens, whatever that is, andbecause, and then another blank line.
(21:35):
So, I feel hurt when someonedoesn't include me because I think
I'm a pretty valuable person.
That's a sample.
I took that I message and I useit in a little different way.
When something happens that I can'tcomprehend, and I can't see that it is
(21:58):
in my best interest, and I'm not happyabout, I use that I message to try
and figure out what I'm threatened bybefore I ever talk to the other person.
I try to figure out what's going onwith me, and sometimes that's enough.
I don't even need to go to the otherperson because I've figured out what
(22:20):
I'm feeling uncomfortable about.
And if there is something that needsattention, then I can have a clear
explanation to the other person.
What is really bothering me?
What am I feeling?
And it doesn't matter that thatperson is doing it, I would feel
(22:42):
that way no matter who does it.
If I'm going to be left out, anynumber of people can do that.
It happened to be this personI'm talking to in this instance.
And I just need to know thatthat's what's bothering me.
What a great piece of informationto have before you talk to someone.
Alexis Miles (23:04):
As I listen to you, it seems that it requires at least
some degree of self awareness.
Mary Zinn (23:12):
Yes, I would say that it does.
And a lot of people, I believe inthis field, study themselves, figure
out what's going on with them beforethey solve their own problems, perhaps
with family or neighbors, and beforethey help other people, you know.
(23:38):
You want to be sure as a mediatorthat your stuff, what's going on in
your head, doesn't interfere withthe process when you're helping two
other people talk to each other.
They're going to solve the problem.
They're going to figure it out.
Your job is to facilitate theirconversation and help them find
(24:00):
information to move them forwardand to open possibilities.
But if your stuff gets in the way,then that's counterproductive.
So Alexis, I would say yes.
And it's a learned skill.
So, you can learn how to keepyour voice low and slow to
(24:26):
keep things from escalating.
You can learn how to listenand how to speak without
threatening the other person.
I also want to go back to lettinggo because it's so important.
I believe that you don't assumethat you have all the right answers.
(24:50):
When you believe you have all the rightanswers, you're not really listening for
possible solutions from someone else.
And the story that I think besttells my letting go aha moment
was when my son Michael was born.
And, um, I kind of celebratewhen I'm giving birth.
(25:14):
So, there was, kind of, a potential party.
There were balloons and things likethat, but he came out really quickly
and he came out not breathing.
So that moment for me was letting go.
I was not a doctor.
I was not in charge.
(25:34):
There was literally nothing Icould do to change that situation.
And I had to trust that other peopleor the universe, the power of the
universe, would take care of Michaeland our family at that moment.
And the sensation, the physical sensationof letting go was so powerful that I have
(25:59):
found that in conflicts to let go of beingright is so important and productive.
It doesn't mean the otherperson is doing the same thing.
If you, or if I, can let go of beingright, then we can move forward
and discover ideas that wouldn'thave come out if I stand in my
(26:24):
position and am unwilling to move.
Sam Fuqua (26:28):
Mary, we've talked with other guests on the program about
the, the physical aspects of someof this, taking a pause, breathing.
I'm curious as to your observationsabout your own physical
being and what works for you.
Mary Zinn (26:46):
When you discover that your body will give you signals,
all you have to do is listen.
Again, it's, you know, paying attention.
If you start to sweat, your hands startto sweat, uh, your heart starts to go
fast, you turn, my face turns bright red.
So, it's a dead giveaway that if yousee me turn bright red, something's
(27:10):
going on and I can feel it.
I can feel the heat.
I stop myself at that momentand ask, what's going on?
What is happening to cause that?
There have been many times that Ihave had to say to someone, I need
(27:31):
a few minutes, something's going on.
I'm not sure exactly what it is, andI need a few minutes to figure it out.
I don't say we have tostop the conversation.
I may say I need until tomorrow.
And let's come back at that time.
(27:52):
So, I'm not saying I'm notgoing to talk to you anymore.
We're done here.
Because when you get that heated andupset, that's what you really want
to do is get the heck out of there.
If you can have the presence of mind andbody, listen to your body, and know that
you need to take some time to figure outwhat's going on so that you can proceed,
(28:16):
you can share that with the other person.
It's fine.
And it gives them permissionto do the same thing.
So take a break if you need to.
Alexis Miles (28:28):
Is that one of the reasons you said a facilitator can be useful?
Because they might notice reactionsthat people are having and be able
to slow down the conversation,do some probing of the reactions.
Is that part of what you meant?
Mary Zinn (28:44):
Definitely.
There are many, many skills aroundkeeping the conversation productive,
keeping people in the conversationwithout, uh, lashing out at each
other, which is not productive.
A skilled mediator or facilitator,how many skills they bring to
(29:07):
the conversation is so important.
And you'll notice themreframing questions.
So, someone asks a question and thefacilitator or mediator can help
the question be said in differentwords so that it can be heard by the
(29:31):
other person in a more receptive way.
They'll reframe questions, they'llback the conversation up as
you are asking questions of me.
You're revisiting somethings that were mentioned.
There are many, many skills.
And if people had themthemselves, they could do that.
(29:53):
When it is your own problem, it isreally hard to stay in a place that is
about how to handle the conversation,rather than how to get what I want.
So having someone elsecan be very, very helpful.
And, it also gives you a format, aroadmap, as it were, we need to do this
(30:20):
and this and this, and it sets someboundaries or norms about how we're
going to be in the room together, howto make this a courageous space, so that
you can tell your story, and you won'tbe attacked during this conversation.
That's an important safety assurance.
Alexis Miles (30:43):
I am curious about the varieties of conflicts that you've seen.
Mary Zinn (30:49):
That's funny.
When you say that, my head went to thevariety of conflicts I've experienced.
And certainly I've seena variety of conflicts.
In all of our lives, weexperience conflict all the time.
Talk about neighbors, um, peopleinteracting with the police.
I had the privilege of being afacilitator for conversations
(31:13):
between citizens and police.
Individual conversations where theyneeded to deal with an incident.
And interpersonal.
I never, um, did divorce.
I did family.
In fact, I was a little annoyed thatfamily law is what we call divorce
(31:35):
when family law or family issuesare so much more than divorce.
Certainly, people who arefamily in business together.
We did a number of those.
Or, or the staff that we taught how todeal with conflict in the workplace.
Those sorts of things, Alexis.
(31:55):
So there's this huge variety.
Again, without conflict, we won't grow.
We won't change.
So, the happiest of circumstancesis conflict everywhere.
Engaging in conflict to learn and grow.
As Liz would say, "What a concept!"
(32:18):
That's another one ofLiz Loescher's quotes.
Speaking of which, she used this quote,which I often bring to mind and encourage
others to use, "People are doing thebest they can given their givens.
(32:38):
You and I are doing the bestwe can given our givens."
My history plays the role of coloringeverything I choose, do, believe.
So I have to understand that peoplewith a different history, people who
(33:00):
grew up in a different family setting,people of different faiths, people
who grew up in a different country,there is no way they will come to the
same conclusion that I will come to.
And yet, I have the expectationthat they should agree with me,
because of course, I'm right.
(33:21):
Yeah.
So, knowing that other people's experienceleads them down the path that they have
taken, they're perfectly "correct," intheir conclusion, given their givens.
It's such an interesting way to look athow people come to different conclusions,
(33:46):
not because they're good or bad people,educated or uneducated, nice or not
nice, it has to do with their experience.
Sam Fuqua (33:55):
Mary Zinn is an activist, an educator, and a mediator
who's been involved in conflictresolution for over 30 years.
She's also a member of theWell, That Went Sideways!
production team.
(34:15):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
(34:36):
That's sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
(34:57):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgment, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(35:20):
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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