December 19, 2024 • 37 mins
Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with naturopaths Brett O'Brien and Darren Sassal as they unveil their innovative approach to adaptive medicine. Learn how they're revolutionising healthcare by integrating cutting-edge technology with traditional naturopathic practices to enhance the body's natural resilience and adaptability.
From exploring the potential of AI in healthcare to discussing advanced biohacking techniques, this episode offers practitioners a glimpse into the future of integrative medicine. Brett and Darren share their expertise on leveraging modern technology to create more personalised and effective treatment strategies.
Key Episode Highlights:
- Understanding adaptive medicine's unique approach to health, focusing on enhancing the body's resilience rather than just addressing deficiencies.
- Insights into innovative treatments like hyperbaric and hypoxic therapies, and how they utilize controlled stressors for improved health outcomes.
- The revolutionary integration of AI in healthcare, including development of a holistic platform that maintains patient privacy while optimizing treatment decisions.
- Practical applications of wearable technology and biohacking techniques in monitoring and improving patient health outcomes.
- The role of modern stress management techniques, including Wim Hof breathing methods, in maintaining homeostasis.
- How this new paradigm differs from traditional functional medicine, offering a more dynamic approach to healthcare.
This episode is essential listening for practitioners interested in staying at the forefront of healthcare innovation and understanding how technology can enhance their clinical practice.
Connect with Brett & Darren
Website: Core Naturopathics
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DISCLAIMER: The Information provided in the Wellness by Designs podcast is for educational purposes only; the information presented is not intended to be used as medical advice; please seek the advice of a qualified healthcare professional if what you have heard here today raises questions or concerns relating to your health
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is BrettO'Brien and Darren Sassel, two
naturopaths taking a newdirection in adaptive medicine.
That's what we'll be discussingtoday.
Welcome, brett and Darren.
How are you both?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, thank you, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Great.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Now let's first define what isadaptive medicine.
Darren, could I start with youhere?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, sure, Andrew, For us it's really built off the
back of, you know, Naturopathy101.
It's all root cause-based, butof recent times there's really
been an explosion of you knowtech advances and it's really
(01:13):
providing, like in so many otherindustries, a really a real
disruptive opportunity fornaturopathy.
And you know being sort of ourbent uh, we like playing with
toys and things in the clinicand um, uh, Brett's really got
us onto this pretty early, um,so we're really uh, as well as
(01:34):
your traditional uh base ofnaturopathic uh therapies, you
know we we're drawing onemerging fields, you know, in
biohacking, in functionaldiagnostics.
You know the wearables arereally you know many clients now
are coming in with you knowuntapped data like on their
(01:56):
wrists, and then we've got AIreally coming to the fore and
available to everybody now.
So there's really a lot goingon in the space and a lot of
it's pretty well understood byprackeys.
You know nootropics andnutrigenomics and diet and
(02:18):
lifestyle and all that sort ofcore or key naturopathic tools.
But then we've got stuff that'smaybe not so quite well
understood around hyperbaricsand the use of these sort of
things in wellness centres andclinics that are popping up.
So there's PEM, Pulse,Electromagnetic Field devices,
(02:39):
and there's hypothermia, andthere's low-level laser
therapies and intermittenthypoxic and hyperoxic therapies.
There's all sorts of stuffcoming around for people to
choose and to assist in theirhealth journeys, and our concept
(02:59):
of adaptive medicine is lookingto pull all of those things
together into a coherent, usableform, if you like.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Britt, can I follow on with you?
So, darren, just mentioned thisuntapped data that we have at
our fingertips or our wrists,and I totally agree with you.
People are using it personally,but what you're doing is taking
that data to help them,basically in a formed framework.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, and so it's recording people when they come
into the clinics, in very simpleactivities it might be.
You know, we're using heartrate variability, we're using
heart monitors, we're takingbaselines, we're working out
shifts.
So I guess that's where theidea about adaptive medicine
comes from, because what wecould see is if people could
(03:48):
adapt more efficiently, theytend to get better results.
It gives that traction andmomentum out of that chronic
state.
So I guess the key to it is, Iguess the disease is that lack
of adaptability.
If we can use, you know, herbs,nutrition, devices to create a
(04:09):
shift, even if it's anartificial shift, then the body
then starts to relearn thiscapacity of adaptation.
And I think that's what we'reseeing just in, even with the
data.
We're seeing this as we'reseeing people's symptoms improve
.
We're seeing that data, thatadaptability improve alongside
it, and that's been over thelast 15 years.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Gotcha, can I follow on with you then as well?
How is adaptive medicinedifferent from, say, functional
medicine?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, I guess it was looking for a term that we could
sort of redefine, I guess thebiohacking model.
I guess you know we've beendoing this for 15 years, pre the
term biohacking.
So we really wanted to showthat there was a very functional
way that this strategy, thisbiohacking, can be used, and to
(05:03):
define it in a very clinicalmodel.
And so we were looking for whatwe were noticing with people's
health and it wasn't a way thatwe thought the system was then
creating plasticity.
And so as we create moreplasticity, we see the body's
(05:26):
capacity to adapt and I guessthat's what I guess the
measurements are actuallyshowing.
Where functional medicine,you're actually looking at
what's out, what's not working,and supplementing or supporting
that process, we're able to addin equipment, herbs,
nutritionals, any device that wecan use, and actually see this
plasticity start to come back into the framework for people.
(05:48):
If you're not in a position ofrecovery, the body won't put any
resources towards it.
So what we're noticing is youmay have all the best intention
with the client and they mayhave trying all the devices and
everything possible, but if thesystem can't allocate that as a
resource, it doesn't tend to beeffective.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I love the way that you guys talk about the
framework, like if the system isin the system of the patient's
resources, of like, and I'm notsort of saying that you're
taking the personalpersonability out of it, but
you're looking at it as a systemso that you can address certain
points along that framework.
I think it's a reallyinteresting way to work.
(06:39):
Darren, can I ask you?
You mentioned before hyperbaricand then hypoxic therapy as
well.
This is obviously a stressor tohelp the person cope with
adaptation.
Can I ask you firstly toexplain those, but also to go a
little bit into how you assesswhether a patient is able, ready
(07:01):
, to cope with that stressor ofhypoxia able, ready, to cope
with that stress of hypoxia.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, so we're very keen or big on measuring.
We don't like to guess too muchin the clinic.
So part of the system thatwe've developed is looking at
the person when they come infrom the perspective of balance
or homeostasis, more than justthe pathology or the set of
(07:30):
symptoms that they're coming inwith.
So we're looking and we'remeasuring urine and saliva and
parameters from those and weutilize bioimpedance and we
utilize microscopes.
We do, you know there's a wholerange of tests that you can go
deep with with your differentorganic acid profiles and your
genetic profiles and stool etcetera.
(07:52):
So when people are coming in,we want to get a little snapshot
or a fingerprint of who theyare biochemically and that's
giving us an assessment of howfar from balance they are, if
you like.
So we know from the tools thatwe have what balance or
homeostasis looks like and we'remeasuring clients when they're
(08:14):
coming in.
Against that you know how farfrom balance are they?
And then part of the clinicalaspects or skills there is okay.
Well, what do you need?
How much of it, how often, howlong, to assist in moving them
back to balance?
So more to your question therewith the hyperbarics and the
(08:35):
hypoxic training.
Those two are very interestingassists where one, in the form
of hyperbarics, will directlymake available oxygen available
to a cell if it's become, youknow, unable to transport or
utilize, so that mild pressurejust allows oxygen, for example,
(08:59):
to get to the mitochondria, sothat then they can make energy,
and then the cell's got half achance of getting on with, you
know, whatever it was supposedto be doing.
Um, the hypoxic training is alittle bit different, where it's
teaching the body how toutilize oxygen better.
So one provides and one teachesso I love that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That simple there.
But basically you're talkingabout, as you say, you know,
provide and then teach.
But with the teaching bityou're stressing, if you want to
go right down to thebiochemistry, you're stressing
the mitochondria to become, tocome back to aerobic metabolism
from anaerobic metabolism.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes, yeah, it upregulates all the enzyme
systems and things.
Is that correct?
Yes, yeah, it upregulates allthe enzyme systems and things.
Yeah, so it assists.
But so when we're assessing forindividuals, that's sort of why
we utilise both technologies.
If the load we perceive wouldbe too much using the hypoxic
therapy, then we'll use thehyperbarics, you know, and to
(10:07):
assist until we say, okay, well,given the set of data that
we're looking at, yeah, now wethink that you're in a position
that the body can adapt to thatstressor.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right Brett, anything to add there, I guess?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
yeah, again, it's about that adaptation and I
guess what we're really lookingat is always how we affect the
mitochondria.
So really you touched on thatpoint and really what our
science is is always focused onthat mitochondrial capacity and
how effective it's able toproduce ATP and create the
(10:47):
capacity to form energypotential.
And then so really, when you'relooking at hypoxic training,
it's really trying to re-educatethe system.
So it's saying well, thenervous system in particular,
you can exist with reducedoxygen and the nervous system
(11:07):
can respond effectively.
And then that has an overridingeffect of creating this
adaptive potential and rightdown to the cellular level, it's
not just a physical, mentallevel.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Can I ask as well is this forgive me if I'm wrong,
correct me if I'm wrong, but isthis indeed what breathing
techniques teach us that youknow, like box breathing and
things like that?
Is that teaching us to handle asmall level of you know we say
hypoxia, hypercapnia or whatever, so that our bodies can adapt
(11:43):
to that?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
happening or whatever , so that our bodies can adapt
to that.
Yeah, and if you look at whatsomeone like Wim Hof is actually
trying to explain, when helooks, when he teaches his
theory or his practicality, he'sactually saying this improves
adaptability.
So that's what it does.
It allows your system to relaxwhen it needs to relax and fire
(12:06):
up when it needs to fire up, andhave that adaptability when
either one is needed.
But as long as the brain andthe body is you know, I guess
it's at the whim of the mindthen they're just responding to
what they perceive as the risk.
So the mind fantasizes, thebrain, the body just responds if
(12:28):
it's real, and then you canlock yourself into a system of
survival.
And so what you actually wantto do is create some
adaptability out of that.
Once you're in survival, all theresources will go into that
survival capacity.
It's not meant to last verylong.
It'll sacrifice all the workit's meant to be doing.
So all the recovery work willbe put on hold until the body
(12:50):
and the brain knows that it'ssafe again.
And then we know now in modernlife that that's becoming much
more difficult for the system tosort of self-regulate.
And that's all that this breathwork is actually doing the
system to sort of self-regulate,and that's all that.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
This breath work is actually doing.
It's interesting that you know,archaeologically, humans' main
job was to survive and once yougot over that it was like you
know, go out, hunt, don't beeaten, come back and eat and
rest and play and procreate,whatever.
Now we've got so many fingersin so many pies, stressors
(13:36):
attacking us from so many points.
You know not just emotionalstress, but physical stressors.
You've got, you know, theCOVIDs and the RSVs and the.
You know the seasonalinfections, and then you've got
the emotional stressors and thenyou've got pollutants and blah,
blah, blah.
So can I ask, how does thislook, this adaptive medicine
(13:56):
picture?
How does it look in the clinic?
To tease apart, what is themain assault on the patient
facing you?
What are the main thingsthrowing the system out of
balance?
If you like, darren, how aboutI start with you again?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, thanks, andrew.
That comes back to the set ofdiagnostics or screening tools
that we use.
So we're looking at, I guess,to make it real simple, you're
looking at, okay, what are theinflammatory drivers?
If any, is that whatpredominates for people?
Is it oxidative?
Is it an immunological issue?
(14:35):
Is it detoxing?
Where's the block?
What's overwhelmed orunder-resourced?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And then if you're looking at the autonomic nervous
, system.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
well then, we're using heart rate variability,
we're measuring that, so thatgives you a direct insight, and
then we're going.
Okay.
So for the individual, who arethey biochemically?
What resources do they have?
How do we, how can we help themto modify the load?
And then the tools that we haveis all about assisting the body
(15:07):
to move back towards balancewhere it's been pushed out yeah,
brett continuing on yeah, it'sa.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
It's a really simple naturopathic philosophy.
We all know about homeostasisand so really what we're doing
is the baselines are really justmeasuring how far someone is
from homeostasis, and then it'slike, okay, then what can we
measure?
Then, if we remove what we canmeasure, what we can see, then
the body will self-regulate.
(15:38):
So we're just reducing load.
As Darren said, it's not lookingfor a diagnosis, and I guess
this is what I guess is thegreat thing about naturopathy is
we say we can't diagnose.
But we don't have to because,based on homeostasis, all we
need to do is reduce and removeroadblocks and the body will do
itself.
The system will do itself andit'll go into this recovery
(15:58):
process.
So we're looking for roadblocks.
We might have a limitedcapacity, but if we can remove
the roadblocks we can see, thenthe body will recover and that's
what we see over and over again.
Some people need diet,lifestyle you know really simple
indications.
Other people need reallycomplex, you know, pieces of
(16:19):
equipment and time and effortand money need to go into it.
But we can measure that overtime and we can provide that
capacity to remove the roadblock.
That's what we're reallylooking at.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So take us through some of the conditions you treat
.
I mean, one thing that's justpinging in my head with this
forgive me, the hyperbaric,hypoxic sort of therapy is long
COVID.
I have a picture in my headfrom this YouTuber.
You know Diana Cohen, who'sjust been through the ringer
with this condition, from such avital human being teaching.
(16:53):
You know her whole thing wasabout helping women, young girls
, to explore science, and it wasmore than that she helped
humans.
But just to see what this poorwoman has gone through is
devastating.
It's heartbreaking to me.
Can you take us through?
Forgive me for harping on aboutlong COVID, but can you take us
(17:20):
through, like an entry, anassessment and then a treatment
phase, maybe with a patient orwith that or a similar condition
?
Brett, could I start with you?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah.
So we start off with our basictesting and then you know I
guess we've got some reallyfascinating tools to measure
with and I think when you'relooking at blood you can
actually start to see some ofthe drivers.
You can see sort of what whiteblood cells are doing.
You know that there's anupregulation of some of these
(17:52):
systems.
You can see inflammation.
So we know inflammation is thebiggest driver.
If you can see it like un itand after seeing like hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds ofclients around, you know
potential long COVID or COVIDimpacts, then you can get to see
what's actually happening.
That's consistent.
And so again, you'reidentifying what you can see
(18:16):
that's outside of homeostasisand you're working on removing
that.
So I guess the great thing thatwe were doing five years ago
when we're looking at COVID iswe could see this increased
production of fibrin, and so wedidn't know the science of what
was happening, but we could seefibrin.
We knew that was part of aninflammatory cascade.
We knew that was generated fromthe you know, the liver because
(18:38):
of viral load.
If we remove that type ofinflammation, what actually
happens.
And so then you get now forlong COVID.
You get the classic nataconazole, you know bromelain, turmeric,
you know these are the classickind of treatments, but we were
seeing that and addressing thatwith our simple you know.
We're seeing that andaddressing that with our simple
(19:02):
indicators five years ago.
And so really, again, it's justremoving what we can see and
seeing what those impacts are.
And we're in a really luckyposition just to be able to see
this cascade of events that wecould just see as naturopaths
and we just had techniques touse, events that we could just
see as naturopaths and we justhad techniques to use.
And we know now that theprotocol that we were using five
years ago is the standardizedprotocol today.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
But we could only see it because we were just from a
naturopath's point of view,because we're removing
roadblocks, really simple right,but you're also capturing the
data so that they um anonymously, so that you can then say, okay
, this therapy works and thattherapy doesn't.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, so each client we're measuring again and again
over time.
So we're not just saying, okay,this is what we're going to do.
We're going to, you know, someclients we might measure weekly,
daily, fortnightly, monthly,depending on how much data we
need to capture, and so we'reusing again maybe one or many of
(20:06):
these baseline tests.
So before when they first comein, we're measuring baseline
what do they look like beforethey go under treatment?
Then what happens if they havetreatment for a week?
Do we see any change in that?
If they go for a fortnight, dowe see any change in that?
Do they month six months?
You know we go for years now.
So we've got data right back to2012, 2011.
So we can get a client comingin and we can look at them, we
(20:27):
can compare their data to whenthey're, you know, 2012.
So we can look at thisprogression over time and
strategize.
So it's just measuring the dataand if the data improves, then
we know we're on the right track.
If it doesn't, then why not?
Then that's when we start.
That intuitive mind is kind oflike okay, what do we need?
(20:48):
What does this person need tohelp them get over the line, to
get that traction and momentumto actually start to see these
parameters start to shift.
And then that's where thisconsistent measuring actually
occurs and that's, I guess, whenwe develop the confidence to
know that the strategies thatwe're using are actually
effective, because we see it inmultiple cases, not just
(21:11):
singular cases, and we cancompare that data.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Darren, this is going to be a bit of a list.
I'm going to ask you, but canyou run off a few of the types
of conditions that you've seenin clinic that have most
benefited from this approach?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Well, I guess we, where we're looking at the
individual and theirpresentation and what they bring
, we're not so interested in thelabel, so we'll treat all
comers, if you like.
So how we sort of got to thisposition a bit of background for
(21:52):
us and why we sort of moved inthe direction we had is because
we were finding for some clientsthat, if you like, were having
catastrophic problems withself-regulation, how the tools
that we were traditionallyworking with weren't getting us
that traction and momentum.
(22:12):
We weren't getting them back,we couldn't shift them in that
or couldn't assist in shifting.
So we went looking for othertools and that's where we
started to adapt.
You know, pulsedelectromagnetic field therapies
and the hyperbarics and thehypothermia and different ways
(22:33):
of helping, you know, initiatechange for people.
And you know we can see, andit's well understood that if you
can't get something in and outof a cell, well, you can provide
whatever you like.
But if the body's notsignalling, or it can't
(22:54):
transport, or it can't absorb,or it can't eliminate toxins, or
you know there's some otherbarrier, or it's otherwise
occupied thinking it's needingto, you know, fight a tiger or
you know, on the battlefieldsomewhere, unless you're having
them come back to a position ofease and the autonomic nervous
system is signaling the restrepair, recover, digest hormones
(23:17):
, neurotransmitters, immunefunction, et cetera then you can
have the best of everything orthe best of anything, but the
body's not using it.
So many of the tools we'recovering, based on client need
and what we can see and measurefor them, is it a cell transport
(23:39):
issue?
Is it a?
Is it?
And if it is, well, what's?
Why is that?
Is it inflammatory?
Is it oxidative?
Is it?
You know, is it a?
Is it a toxin load?
Is it an endotoxin?
What's going on for that person?
So, without needing or lookingfor a diagnosis or a label which
is a descriptor, obviouslywe're trying to.
(24:01):
We unpack that, we're trying toreverse engineer the process
for people.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Right, I've got to say I love the words you used,
the initiate change, because weall want change for our patients
to move away from a diseasemodel to a wellness model, but
compliance is the big, you know,elephant in the room that we
don't like to address, and Ithink your approach seems to
(24:24):
basically passive isn't theright word, but it's almost like
a nudge to help initiate thatchange using these machines and
things like that, the therapieslike hyperbaric versus hypoxic.
Darren and Brett, you have bothembraced artificial
(24:47):
intelligence, ai, and we oftenthink about AI, about you know,
being useful for writing a storyand helping us with you know a
framework for an article wemight want to write, or
something like that.
There have been issues thathave been pulled out from AI,
though, about being able totrick AI.
For instance, if it takes twohours to dry two towels, how
(25:09):
many hours does it take to dryfour towels?
And the AI will say four hours,but you're not using it in that
way, I understand.
Can you take us through, brett?
Could you take us through howyou're using AI to benefit your
patients?
What sort of data are youcollecting?
What are you coming up with?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, so I guess we're in that unique position
that really early on we decidedto keep all our data, and so the
unique then position we're inis that one day it'll be useful.
We don't know how that's goingto look, and now we've got
something called AI and so weput that data through this
system and really it's just achip that has greater capacity
(25:53):
to sort through information, andthen we can bring much more
clear indicators about what'shappening.
So the problem is is that allour tests and our equipment
don't actually talk with eachother.
They're all very separate, kindof individual tests and
individual processes.
But what happens when you bringthose all together and then
(26:14):
there's an individual way topull the information and to
categorize it for an individual.
So AI for us.
And firstly, the beautiful thingabout the AI that we're going
to be using is it's a closedsystem, so it's not accessing,
at this point, a massive, youknow database.
(26:34):
It's not accessing Google.
It's actually accessing theinformation within the clinic
and it's bringing up far betterresults, and that will then
increase.
So then we have morepractitioners using the same
system, and so we're all sharingthe data.
So you might have someonethat's you know, an individual
practitioner using the systemand they're accessing a clinic
(26:55):
that's on a larger scale or anintegrative practice using the
same the system and they'reaccessing a clinic that's on a
larger scale or an integrativepractice using the same
technology and they're able toaccess the same information or
database that we can and bringin that information much more
holistic as far as the data thatwe're choosing.
So it'll bring in pathology andit'll bring in functional
(27:17):
testing and it'll bring in thevalues of equipment and it'll
bring in the client's individualinformation that they're
recording.
They can punch in their dataaround what they're eating and
it'll start to then organise theinformation to produce best
outcomes, and I guess that'swhat we're all looking for.
(27:37):
Is this outcome-based sort oftreatment strategy?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I love that Outcome-based rather than
treatment-based.
I also am very reassured by theway that it's a closed system,
so that it's this true anonymityfor the patient data and
patient protection.
So I love that.
But how then, is the invitationgoing to be to other
(28:02):
practitioners?
How are you going to maintain aclosed system with that?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, I guess what you've got is a provider who's
providing that AI technology,providing that AI technology,
and then they can add data in sothey can then input information
so they may put in a laterstudy, so there may be new
(28:30):
findings and they have beenclarified and that'll go into
the system.
Again, it's about thepractitioner's discretion as
well, so it's a guide.
You're not taking thepractitioner out of the decision
making.
You're actually bringing a muchmore coherent system together
to work out strategies,primarily for the client.
So you're looking for outcomesfor the client, so the system
won't be like a closed doorprocess.
(28:53):
It's actually being able toscreen it, so it's not accessing
the World Wide Web to work outsolutions.
It's actually looking able toscreen it, so it's not accessing
the World Wide Web to work outsolutions.
It's actually looking at theparticipants working out
solutions, adding informationthat's relevant and then having
that in the mix.
That information, you know, maychange over time, we'll see.
So it's dynamic.
It's not two-dimensional, it'sactually three-dimensional.
(29:17):
So it's much more kind of likea world-wide that you can access
, rather than this kind of flatscreen kind of dashboard kind of
idea.
It's much more dynamic for thepractitioner and for the client
as far as how they can use itand interface with it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Darren, I need to ask you.
So this has obviously got to dowith data capture, and you've
obviously done that from thevery get-go to capture, and
you've obviously done that fromthe very get-go.
But when we're doing that andthen you're transferring it over
to an AI system, who has to dothe legwork with regards to data
transfer?
Or is it something that justdraws?
Or do you guys just sit theretyping all night?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Thankfully, not Thankfully not the team that's
sort of behind the developmentof the AI platform.
They've been deep into it.
You know they're affiliatedwith one of the universities in
New South Wales and the guysthat are in the background have
(30:27):
been deep into it with Amazon.
I believe, if I think that'sright, or Google was one of them
.
So they're bringing a wealth ofexperience and knowledge of how
to frame it all but thenbringing it to and applying it
for a holistic medicine model.
So yeah, I'm just great andkeen using it.
(30:53):
I don't know how they put ittogether in the background, I
don't know how the phone works,I just use it.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
But with regards to you using that data to help your
patients, like what springs outat you, how is it presented to
you so that you can then go?
This is our direction oftherapy.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Okay, yeah, so myself and Brett and practitioners you
know we've been around for alittle while.
You know, previously we've hadto do it.
Bring in 25 years of you know,knowledge and expertise on.
You know, know we can read agenetic profile.
We can read omics, we can dogeomaps, we you know, but new
(31:34):
practitioners don't, and you umfunctional practitioners to the
space don't have that experience.
And so it's being able at yourfingertips to bring hints or
guides, or what does all thisinformation mean?
Because your clients arebringing in folders full of data
that they've collected over theyears, and if this is already
(31:58):
in the system, it's beenuploaded, and the tool of the
system can read that for you.
It can extract what you needfrom it, based on when we're
looking at.
Well, you know the blocks andthe resources, and so is it
(32:20):
inflammatory?
Is it oxidating?
Is it detoxing?
Is it all a detox?
You know, is it all?
And it's helping to rapidly andaccurately pull together that
data, and then it's just at yourfingertips, brett, anything to
follow on from there.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah.
So it's really looking at again, creating that baseline and
then seeing it shift and seeingif it's shifting in the right
direction based on theinformation that's being
provided.
We're getting clients that areall individuals.
They'll all bring thatuniqueness into their profiling
and it's just collaborating withmultiple different sources to
(33:02):
really narrow the strategy down.
So it's, as Darren was saying,like there's a lot of work that
goes into thinking about aclient and how to navigate for
them.
So I describe really what we donow is we manage people's
health.
Once upon a time we had all theinformation you can get the
information, information, not aproblem about any kind of
(33:25):
disorder.
It's how you manage that.
So how do you get from a personwho's at point A and getting
them to point B?
And then what this does is itallows that transition, it
allows that journey, it allowsfor better road mapping, it
allows for better signaling toget to that ideal map for that
particular client, and that datawill allow people to just
(33:47):
navigate more effectively.
Don't forget, we've got theclient, who has access to this
the whole time.
So it's not a closed systemjust for practitioners, it's an
interaction between thepractitioner and the client, and
so there's these discussionsthat will go ahead talking about
well, what about this way?
Well, I can see this Well.
How about if I change that Well, in actual fact?
Well, I can see this well.
How about if I change that?
Well, in actual fact, you cansee.
(34:08):
Then, when there was a drop, Iactually didn't eat all day and
so, therefore, you see, thesesort of stress response may hate
my hrv shoot through the roof.
So, for me, one of theindicators maybe I need to eat a
little bit more regularly.
These are things that they'relearning, that they're learning
that roadmap as well, along withthe practitioner.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So it's an integrated system between the two.
Beautiful.
And what's the end game to thisapproach, this adaptive
medicine approach?
Brett, I'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I guess we're.
For some reason.
We've constantly been throwninto this.
In actual fact, we're not geeky, we don't like machines and we
don't like gadgets True, buteach step that we go we see
necessity for the client.
So we're always driven by whatthe client needs and what I
(35:04):
guess our industry needs as awhole to be much more efficient
in what we actually do.
And the end game is always toshake that client's hand when
they say thank you very much,and that's where the reward is,
when you get people to thedestination that they're looking
for.
That's the end goal.
So all we do is providingroadmaps for people and really
(35:26):
having that handshake.
There's nothing better thansomeone saying thank you very
much, and that's really the endgoal.
It's really quite simple.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Darren anything to add?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah, no, it's a joy and it's why, you know, myself
and Brett do what we do.
You know we like to think we'reuseful in some way.
So we've just found ourselvesbeing pushed and challenged with
the clients that have beencoming to see us.
Well, how do we facilitate thisfor you?
(36:02):
And we come to a roadblock andwe go, oh, how do we get around
it?
And it's been a steep learningcurve for us and it's continuing
.
You know, this AI stuff's areally steep learning curve, but
we've managed to.
You know, have some reallyclever people and some fantastic
people come into our orbit andassist us to pull it all
(36:24):
together, sisters, to pull itall together, and we think it's.
You know, we're sort of flyinga little bit, you know, outside
our comfort zone at some time,but we keep getting reinforced
and we keep getting yeah, keepgoing boys.
So, while we're still gettingoutcomes, which is the end goal
(36:45):
for us, all then we're happy tocontinue while everyone's happy
with us.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Darren Cecil and Brett O'Brien.
I can't thank you enough forsharing.
I'm getting that this is thetip of the iceberg for what you
guys do.
But thank you so much forsharing a little bit of adaptive
medicine and your approach,because I've got to say I love
this, what you're saying.
You know initiating change andit's all for outcome.
It's not about input, it's allabout at the end you want them
(37:16):
to shake your hand and say thankyou and that to me is
sacrosanct the patient care.
I thank you so much for takingus through this model of
adaptive medicine and how youfunction in this space.
Thank you so much for joiningus today on Wellness of adaptive
medicine and how you functionin this space.
Thank you so much for joiningus today on Wellness by Designs.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Wonderful Thanks, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And thank you everyone for joining us.
Remember you can catch up onthis and the other podcasts on
the Designs for Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is BrettO'Brien and Darren Sassel, two
naturopaths taking a newdirection in adaptive medicine.
That's what we'll be discussingtoday.
Welcome, brett and Darren.
How are you both?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, thank you, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Great.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
Now let's first define what isadaptive medicine.
Darren, could I start with youhere?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, sure, Andrew, For us it's really built off the
back of, you know, Naturopathy101.
It's all root cause-based, butof recent times there's really
been an explosion of you knowtech advances and it's really
(01:13):
providing, like in so many otherindustries, a really a real
disruptive opportunity fornaturopathy.
And you know being sort of ourbent uh, we like playing with
toys and things in the clinicand um, uh, Brett's really got
us onto this pretty early, um,so we're really uh, as well as
(01:34):
your traditional uh base ofnaturopathic uh therapies, you
know we we're drawing onemerging fields, you know, in
biohacking, in functionaldiagnostics.
You know the wearables arereally you know many clients now
are coming in with you knowuntapped data like on their
(01:56):
wrists, and then we've got AIreally coming to the fore and
available to everybody now.
So there's really a lot goingon in the space and a lot of
it's pretty well understood byprackeys.
You know nootropics andnutrigenomics and diet and
(02:18):
lifestyle and all that sort ofcore or key naturopathic tools.
But then we've got stuff that'smaybe not so quite well
understood around hyperbaricsand the use of these sort of
things in wellness centres andclinics that are popping up.
So there's PEM, Pulse,Electromagnetic Field devices,
(02:39):
and there's hypothermia, andthere's low-level laser
therapies and intermittenthypoxic and hyperoxic therapies.
There's all sorts of stuffcoming around for people to
choose and to assist in theirhealth journeys, and our concept
(02:59):
of adaptive medicine is lookingto pull all of those things
together into a coherent, usableform, if you like.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Britt, can I follow on with you?
So, darren, just mentioned thisuntapped data that we have at
our fingertips or our wrists,and I totally agree with you.
People are using it personally,but what you're doing is taking
that data to help them,basically in a formed framework.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, and so it's recording people when they come
into the clinics, in very simpleactivities it might be.
You know, we're using heartrate variability, we're using
heart monitors, we're takingbaselines, we're working out
shifts.
So I guess that's where theidea about adaptive medicine
comes from, because what wecould see is if people could
(03:48):
adapt more efficiently, theytend to get better results.
It gives that traction andmomentum out of that chronic
state.
So I guess the key to it is, Iguess the disease is that lack
of adaptability.
If we can use, you know, herbs,nutrition, devices to create a
(04:09):
shift, even if it's anartificial shift, then the body
then starts to relearn thiscapacity of adaptation.
And I think that's what we'reseeing just in, even with the
data.
We're seeing this as we'reseeing people's symptoms improve
.
We're seeing that data, thatadaptability improve alongside
it, and that's been over thelast 15 years.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Gotcha, can I follow on with you then as well?
How is adaptive medicinedifferent from, say, functional
medicine?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, I guess it was looking for a term that we could
sort of redefine, I guess thebiohacking model.
I guess you know we've beendoing this for 15 years, pre the
term biohacking.
So we really wanted to showthat there was a very functional
way that this strategy, thisbiohacking, can be used, and to
(05:03):
define it in a very clinicalmodel.
And so we were looking for whatwe were noticing with people's
health and it wasn't a way thatwe thought the system was then
creating plasticity.
And so as we create moreplasticity, we see the body's
(05:26):
capacity to adapt and I guessthat's what I guess the
measurements are actuallyshowing.
Where functional medicine,you're actually looking at
what's out, what's not working,and supplementing or supporting
that process, we're able to addin equipment, herbs,
nutritionals, any device that wecan use, and actually see this
plasticity start to come back into the framework for people.
(05:48):
If you're not in a position ofrecovery, the body won't put any
resources towards it.
So what we're noticing is youmay have all the best intention
with the client and they mayhave trying all the devices and
everything possible, but if thesystem can't allocate that as a
resource, it doesn't tend to beeffective.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I love the way that you guys talk about the
framework, like if the system isin the system of the patient's
resources, of like, and I'm notsort of saying that you're
taking the personalpersonability out of it, but
you're looking at it as a systemso that you can address certain
points along that framework.
I think it's a reallyinteresting way to work.
(06:39):
Darren, can I ask you?
You mentioned before hyperbaricand then hypoxic therapy as
well.
This is obviously a stressor tohelp the person cope with
adaptation.
Can I ask you firstly toexplain those, but also to go a
little bit into how you assesswhether a patient is able, ready
(07:01):
, to cope with that stressor ofhypoxia able, ready, to cope
with that stress of hypoxia.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, so we're very keen or big on measuring.
We don't like to guess too muchin the clinic.
So part of the system thatwe've developed is looking at
the person when they come infrom the perspective of balance
or homeostasis, more than justthe pathology or the set of
(07:30):
symptoms that they're coming inwith.
So we're looking and we'remeasuring urine and saliva and
parameters from those and weutilize bioimpedance and we
utilize microscopes.
We do, you know there's a wholerange of tests that you can go
deep with with your differentorganic acid profiles and your
genetic profiles and stool etcetera.
(07:52):
So when people are coming in,we want to get a little snapshot
or a fingerprint of who theyare biochemically and that's
giving us an assessment of howfar from balance they are, if
you like.
So we know from the tools thatwe have what balance or
homeostasis looks like and we'remeasuring clients when they're
(08:14):
coming in.
Against that you know how farfrom balance are they?
And then part of the clinicalaspects or skills there is okay.
Well, what do you need?
How much of it, how often, howlong, to assist in moving them
back to balance?
So more to your question therewith the hyperbarics and the
(08:35):
hypoxic training.
Those two are very interestingassists where one, in the form
of hyperbarics, will directlymake available oxygen available
to a cell if it's become, youknow, unable to transport or
utilize, so that mild pressurejust allows oxygen, for example,
(08:59):
to get to the mitochondria, sothat then they can make energy,
and then the cell's got half achance of getting on with, you
know, whatever it was supposedto be doing.
Um, the hypoxic training is alittle bit different, where it's
teaching the body how toutilize oxygen better.
So one provides and one teachesso I love that.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That simple there.
But basically you're talkingabout, as you say, you know,
provide and then teach.
But with the teaching bityou're stressing, if you want to
go right down to thebiochemistry, you're stressing
the mitochondria to become, tocome back to aerobic metabolism
from anaerobic metabolism.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes, yeah, it upregulates all the enzyme
systems and things.
Is that correct?
Yes, yeah, it upregulates allthe enzyme systems and things.
Yeah, so it assists.
But so when we're assessing forindividuals, that's sort of why
we utilise both technologies.
If the load we perceive wouldbe too much using the hypoxic
therapy, then we'll use thehyperbarics, you know, and to
(10:07):
assist until we say, okay, well,given the set of data that
we're looking at, yeah, now wethink that you're in a position
that the body can adapt to thatstressor.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right Brett, anything to add there, I guess?
Speaker 2 (10:23):
yeah, again, it's about that adaptation and I
guess what we're really lookingat is always how we affect the
mitochondria.
So really you touched on thatpoint and really what our
science is is always focused onthat mitochondrial capacity and
how effective it's able toproduce ATP and create the
(10:47):
capacity to form energypotential.
And then so really, when you'relooking at hypoxic training,
it's really trying to re-educatethe system.
So it's saying well, thenervous system in particular,
you can exist with reducedoxygen and the nervous system
(11:07):
can respond effectively.
And then that has an overridingeffect of creating this
adaptive potential and rightdown to the cellular level, it's
not just a physical, mentallevel.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Can I ask as well is this forgive me if I'm wrong,
correct me if I'm wrong, but isthis indeed what breathing
techniques teach us that youknow, like box breathing and
things like that?
Is that teaching us to handle asmall level of you know we say
hypoxia, hypercapnia or whatever, so that our bodies can adapt
(11:43):
to that?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
happening or whatever , so that our bodies can adapt
to that.
Yeah, and if you look at whatsomeone like Wim Hof is actually
trying to explain, when helooks, when he teaches his
theory or his practicality, he'sactually saying this improves
adaptability.
So that's what it does.
It allows your system to relaxwhen it needs to relax and fire
(12:06):
up when it needs to fire up, andhave that adaptability when
either one is needed.
But as long as the brain andthe body is you know, I guess
it's at the whim of the mindthen they're just responding to
what they perceive as the risk.
So the mind fantasizes, thebrain, the body just responds if
(12:28):
it's real, and then you canlock yourself into a system of
survival.
And so what you actually wantto do is create some
adaptability out of that.
Once you're in survival, all theresources will go into that
survival capacity.
It's not meant to last verylong.
It'll sacrifice all the workit's meant to be doing.
So all the recovery work willbe put on hold until the body
(12:50):
and the brain knows that it'ssafe again.
And then we know now in modernlife that that's becoming much
more difficult for the system tosort of self-regulate.
And that's all that this breathwork is actually doing the
system to sort of self-regulate,and that's all that.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
This breath work is actually doing.
It's interesting that you know,archaeologically, humans' main
job was to survive and once yougot over that it was like you
know, go out, hunt, don't beeaten, come back and eat and
rest and play and procreate,whatever.
Now we've got so many fingersin so many pies, stressors
(13:36):
attacking us from so many points.
You know not just emotionalstress, but physical stressors.
You've got, you know, theCOVIDs and the RSVs and the.
You know the seasonalinfections, and then you've got
the emotional stressors and thenyou've got pollutants and blah,
blah, blah.
So can I ask, how does thislook, this adaptive medicine
(13:56):
picture?
How does it look in the clinic?
To tease apart, what is themain assault on the patient
facing you?
What are the main thingsthrowing the system out of
balance?
If you like, darren, how aboutI start with you again?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, thanks, andrew.
That comes back to the set ofdiagnostics or screening tools
that we use.
So we're looking at, I guess,to make it real simple, you're
looking at, okay, what are theinflammatory drivers?
If any, is that whatpredominates for people?
Is it oxidative?
Is it an immunological issue?
(14:35):
Is it detoxing?
Where's the block?
What's overwhelmed orunder-resourced?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And then if you're looking at the autonomic nervous
, system.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
well then, we're using heart rate variability,
we're measuring that, so thatgives you a direct insight, and
then we're going.
Okay.
So for the individual, who arethey biochemically?
What resources do they have?
How do we, how can we help themto modify the load?
And then the tools that we haveis all about assisting the body
(15:07):
to move back towards balancewhere it's been pushed out yeah,
brett continuing on yeah, it'sa.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
It's a really simple naturopathic philosophy.
We all know about homeostasisand so really what we're doing
is the baselines are really justmeasuring how far someone is
from homeostasis, and then it'slike, okay, then what can we
measure?
Then, if we remove what we canmeasure, what we can see, then
the body will self-regulate.
(15:38):
So we're just reducing load.
As Darren said, it's not lookingfor a diagnosis, and I guess
this is what I guess is thegreat thing about naturopathy is
we say we can't diagnose.
But we don't have to because,based on homeostasis, all we
need to do is reduce and removeroadblocks and the body will do
itself.
The system will do itself andit'll go into this recovery
(15:58):
process.
So we're looking for roadblocks.
We might have a limitedcapacity, but if we can remove
the roadblocks we can see, thenthe body will recover and that's
what we see over and over again.
Some people need diet,lifestyle you know really simple
indications.
Other people need reallycomplex, you know, pieces of
(16:19):
equipment and time and effortand money need to go into it.
But we can measure that overtime and we can provide that
capacity to remove the roadblock.
That's what we're reallylooking at.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So take us through some of the conditions you treat
.
I mean, one thing that's justpinging in my head with this
forgive me, the hyperbaric,hypoxic sort of therapy is long
COVID.
I have a picture in my headfrom this YouTuber.
You know Diana Cohen, who'sjust been through the ringer
with this condition, from such avital human being teaching.
(16:53):
You know her whole thing wasabout helping women, young girls
, to explore science, and it wasmore than that she helped
humans.
But just to see what this poorwoman has gone through is
devastating.
It's heartbreaking to me.
Can you take us through?
Forgive me for harping on aboutlong COVID, but can you take us
(17:20):
through, like an entry, anassessment and then a treatment
phase, maybe with a patient orwith that or a similar condition
?
Brett, could I start with you?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah.
So we start off with our basictesting and then you know I
guess we've got some reallyfascinating tools to measure
with and I think when you'relooking at blood you can
actually start to see some ofthe drivers.
You can see sort of what whiteblood cells are doing.
You know that there's anupregulation of some of these
(17:52):
systems.
You can see inflammation.
So we know inflammation is thebiggest driver.
If you can see it like un itand after seeing like hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds ofclients around, you know
potential long COVID or COVIDimpacts, then you can get to see
what's actually happening.
That's consistent.
And so again, you'reidentifying what you can see
(18:16):
that's outside of homeostasisand you're working on removing
that.
So I guess the great thing thatwe were doing five years ago
when we're looking at COVID iswe could see this increased
production of fibrin, and so wedidn't know the science of what
was happening, but we could seefibrin.
We knew that was part of aninflammatory cascade.
We knew that was generated fromthe you know, the liver because
(18:38):
of viral load.
If we remove that type ofinflammation, what actually
happens.
And so then you get now forlong COVID.
You get the classic nataconazole, you know bromelain, turmeric,
you know these are the classickind of treatments, but we were
seeing that and addressing thatwith our simple you know.
We're seeing that andaddressing that with our simple
(19:02):
indicators five years ago.
And so really, again, it's justremoving what we can see and
seeing what those impacts are.
And we're in a really luckyposition just to be able to see
this cascade of events that wecould just see as naturopaths
and we just had techniques touse, events that we could just
see as naturopaths and we justhad techniques to use.
And we know now that theprotocol that we were using five
years ago is the standardizedprotocol today.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
But we could only see it because we were just from a
naturopath's point of view,because we're removing
roadblocks, really simple right,but you're also capturing the
data so that they um anonymously, so that you can then say, okay
, this therapy works and thattherapy doesn't.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, so each client we're measuring again and again
over time.
So we're not just saying, okay,this is what we're going to do.
We're going to, you know, someclients we might measure weekly,
daily, fortnightly, monthly,depending on how much data we
need to capture, and so we'reusing again maybe one or many of
(20:06):
these baseline tests.
So before when they first comein, we're measuring baseline
what do they look like beforethey go under treatment?
Then what happens if they havetreatment for a week?
Do we see any change in that?
If they go for a fortnight, dowe see any change in that?
Do they month six months?
You know we go for years now.
So we've got data right back to2012, 2011.
So we can get a client comingin and we can look at them, we
(20:27):
can compare their data to whenthey're, you know, 2012.
So we can look at thisprogression over time and
strategize.
So it's just measuring the dataand if the data improves, then
we know we're on the right track.
If it doesn't, then why not?
Then that's when we start.
That intuitive mind is kind oflike okay, what do we need?
(20:48):
What does this person need tohelp them get over the line, to
get that traction and momentumto actually start to see these
parameters start to shift.
And then that's where thisconsistent measuring actually
occurs and that's, I guess, whenwe develop the confidence to
know that the strategies thatwe're using are actually
effective, because we see it inmultiple cases, not just
(21:11):
singular cases, and we cancompare that data.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Darren, this is going to be a bit of a list.
I'm going to ask you, but canyou run off a few of the types
of conditions that you've seenin clinic that have most
benefited from this approach?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Well, I guess we, where we're looking at the
individual and theirpresentation and what they bring
, we're not so interested in thelabel, so we'll treat all
comers, if you like.
So how we sort of got to thisposition a bit of background for
(21:52):
us and why we sort of moved inthe direction we had is because
we were finding for some clientsthat, if you like, were having
catastrophic problems withself-regulation, how the tools
that we were traditionallyworking with weren't getting us
that traction and momentum.
(22:12):
We weren't getting them back,we couldn't shift them in that
or couldn't assist in shifting.
So we went looking for othertools and that's where we
started to adapt.
You know, pulsedelectromagnetic field therapies
and the hyperbarics and thehypothermia and different ways
(22:33):
of helping, you know, initiatechange for people.
And you know we can see, andit's well understood that if you
can't get something in and outof a cell, well, you can provide
whatever you like.
But if the body's notsignalling, or it can't
(22:54):
transport, or it can't absorb,or it can't eliminate toxins, or
you know there's some otherbarrier, or it's otherwise
occupied thinking it's needingto, you know, fight a tiger or
you know, on the battlefieldsomewhere, unless you're having
them come back to a position ofease and the autonomic nervous
system is signaling the restrepair, recover, digest hormones
(23:17):
, neurotransmitters, immunefunction, et cetera then you can
have the best of everything orthe best of anything, but the
body's not using it.
So many of the tools we'recovering, based on client need
and what we can see and measurefor them, is it a cell transport
(23:39):
issue?
Is it a?
Is it?
And if it is, well, what's?
Why is that?
Is it inflammatory?
Is it oxidative?
Is it?
You know, is it a?
Is it a toxin load?
Is it an endotoxin?
What's going on for that person?
So, without needing or lookingfor a diagnosis or a label which
is a descriptor, obviouslywe're trying to.
(24:01):
We unpack that, we're trying toreverse engineer the process
for people.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Right, I've got to say I love the words you used,
the initiate change, because weall want change for our patients
to move away from a diseasemodel to a wellness model, but
compliance is the big, you know,elephant in the room that we
don't like to address, and Ithink your approach seems to
(24:24):
basically passive isn't theright word, but it's almost like
a nudge to help initiate thatchange using these machines and
things like that, the therapieslike hyperbaric versus hypoxic.
Darren and Brett, you have bothembraced artificial
(24:47):
intelligence, ai, and we oftenthink about AI, about you know,
being useful for writing a storyand helping us with you know a
framework for an article wemight want to write, or
something like that.
There have been issues thathave been pulled out from AI,
though, about being able totrick AI.
For instance, if it takes twohours to dry two towels, how
(25:09):
many hours does it take to dryfour towels?
And the AI will say four hours,but you're not using it in that
way, I understand.
Can you take us through, brett?
Could you take us through howyou're using AI to benefit your
patients?
What sort of data are youcollecting?
What are you coming up with?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, so I guess we're in that unique position
that really early on we decidedto keep all our data, and so the
unique then position we're inis that one day it'll be useful.
We don't know how that's goingto look, and now we've got
something called AI and so weput that data through this
system and really it's just achip that has greater capacity
(25:53):
to sort through information, andthen we can bring much more
clear indicators about what'shappening.
So the problem is is that allour tests and our equipment
don't actually talk with eachother.
They're all very separate, kindof individual tests and
individual processes.
But what happens when you bringthose all together and then
(26:14):
there's an individual way topull the information and to
categorize it for an individual.
So AI for us.
And firstly, the beautiful thingabout the AI that we're going
to be using is it's a closedsystem, so it's not accessing,
at this point, a massive, youknow database.
(26:34):
It's not accessing Google.
It's actually accessing theinformation within the clinic
and it's bringing up far betterresults, and that will then
increase.
So then we have morepractitioners using the same
system, and so we're all sharingthe data.
So you might have someonethat's you know, an individual
practitioner using the systemand they're accessing a clinic
(26:55):
that's on a larger scale or anintegrative practice using the
same the system and they'reaccessing a clinic that's on a
larger scale or an integrativepractice using the same
technology and they're able toaccess the same information or
database that we can and bringin that information much more
holistic as far as the data thatwe're choosing.
So it'll bring in pathology andit'll bring in functional
(27:17):
testing and it'll bring in thevalues of equipment and it'll
bring in the client's individualinformation that they're
recording.
They can punch in their dataaround what they're eating and
it'll start to then organise theinformation to produce best
outcomes, and I guess that'swhat we're all looking for.
(27:37):
Is this outcome-based sort oftreatment strategy?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I love that Outcome-based rather than
treatment-based.
I also am very reassured by theway that it's a closed system,
so that it's this true anonymityfor the patient data and
patient protection.
So I love that.
But how then, is the invitationgoing to be to other
(28:02):
practitioners?
How are you going to maintain aclosed system with that?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, I guess what you've got is a provider who's
providing that AI technology,providing that AI technology,
and then they can add data in sothey can then input information
so they may put in a laterstudy, so there may be new
(28:30):
findings and they have beenclarified and that'll go into
the system.
Again, it's about thepractitioner's discretion as
well, so it's a guide.
You're not taking thepractitioner out of the decision
making.
You're actually bringing a muchmore coherent system together
to work out strategies,primarily for the client.
So you're looking for outcomesfor the client, so the system
won't be like a closed doorprocess.
(28:53):
It's actually being able toscreen it, so it's not accessing
the World Wide Web to work outsolutions.
It's actually looking able toscreen it, so it's not accessing
the World Wide Web to work outsolutions.
It's actually looking at theparticipants working out
solutions, adding informationthat's relevant and then having
that in the mix.
That information, you know, maychange over time, we'll see.
So it's dynamic.
It's not two-dimensional, it'sactually three-dimensional.
(29:17):
So it's much more kind of likea world-wide that you can access
, rather than this kind of flatscreen kind of dashboard kind of
idea.
It's much more dynamic for thepractitioner and for the client
as far as how they can use itand interface with it.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Darren, I need to ask you.
So this has obviously got to dowith data capture, and you've
obviously done that from thevery get-go to capture, and
you've obviously done that fromthe very get-go.
But when we're doing that andthen you're transferring it over
to an AI system, who has to dothe legwork with regards to data
transfer?
Or is it something that justdraws?
Or do you guys just sit theretyping all night?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Thankfully, not Thankfully not the team that's
sort of behind the developmentof the AI platform.
They've been deep into it.
You know they're affiliatedwith one of the universities in
New South Wales and the guysthat are in the background have
(30:27):
been deep into it with Amazon.
I believe, if I think that'sright, or Google was one of them
.
So they're bringing a wealth ofexperience and knowledge of how
to frame it all but thenbringing it to and applying it
for a holistic medicine model.
So yeah, I'm just great andkeen using it.
(30:53):
I don't know how they put ittogether in the background, I
don't know how the phone works,I just use it.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
But with regards to you using that data to help your
patients, like what springs outat you, how is it presented to
you so that you can then go?
This is our direction oftherapy.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Okay, yeah, so myself and Brett and practitioners you
know we've been around for alittle while.
You know, previously we've hadto do it.
Bring in 25 years of you know,knowledge and expertise on.
You know, know we can read agenetic profile.
We can read omics, we can dogeomaps, we you know, but new
(31:34):
practitioners don't, and you umfunctional practitioners to the
space don't have that experience.
And so it's being able at yourfingertips to bring hints or
guides, or what does all thisinformation mean?
Because your clients arebringing in folders full of data
that they've collected over theyears, and if this is already
(31:58):
in the system, it's beenuploaded, and the tool of the
system can read that for you.
It can extract what you needfrom it, based on when we're
looking at.
Well, you know the blocks andthe resources, and so is it
(32:20):
inflammatory?
Is it oxidating?
Is it detoxing?
Is it all a detox?
You know, is it all?
And it's helping to rapidly andaccurately pull together that
data, and then it's just at yourfingertips, brett, anything to
follow on from there.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah.
So it's really looking at again, creating that baseline and
then seeing it shift and seeingif it's shifting in the right
direction based on theinformation that's being
provided.
We're getting clients that areall individuals.
They'll all bring thatuniqueness into their profiling
and it's just collaborating withmultiple different sources to
(33:02):
really narrow the strategy down.
So it's, as Darren was saying,like there's a lot of work that
goes into thinking about aclient and how to navigate for
them.
So I describe really what we donow is we manage people's
health.
Once upon a time we had all theinformation you can get the
information, information, not aproblem about any kind of
(33:25):
disorder.
It's how you manage that.
So how do you get from a personwho's at point A and getting
them to point B?
And then what this does is itallows that transition, it
allows that journey, it allowsfor better road mapping, it
allows for better signaling toget to that ideal map for that
particular client, and that datawill allow people to just
(33:47):
navigate more effectively.
Don't forget, we've got theclient, who has access to this
the whole time.
So it's not a closed systemjust for practitioners, it's an
interaction between thepractitioner and the client, and
so there's these discussionsthat will go ahead talking about
well, what about this way?
Well, I can see this Well.
How about if I change that Well, in actual fact?
Well, I can see this well.
How about if I change that?
Well, in actual fact, you cansee.
(34:08):
Then, when there was a drop, Iactually didn't eat all day and
so, therefore, you see, thesesort of stress response may hate
my hrv shoot through the roof.
So, for me, one of theindicators maybe I need to eat a
little bit more regularly.
These are things that they'relearning, that they're learning
that roadmap as well, along withthe practitioner.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So it's an integrated system between the two.
Beautiful.
And what's the end game to thisapproach, this adaptive
medicine approach?
Brett, I'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I guess we're.
For some reason.
We've constantly been throwninto this.
In actual fact, we're not geeky, we don't like machines and we
don't like gadgets True, buteach step that we go we see
necessity for the client.
So we're always driven by whatthe client needs and what I
(35:04):
guess our industry needs as awhole to be much more efficient
in what we actually do.
And the end game is always toshake that client's hand when
they say thank you very much,and that's where the reward is,
when you get people to thedestination that they're looking
for.
That's the end goal.
So all we do is providingroadmaps for people and really
(35:26):
having that handshake.
There's nothing better thansomeone saying thank you very
much, and that's really the endgoal.
It's really quite simple.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Darren anything to add?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah, no, it's a joy and it's why, you know, myself
and Brett do what we do.
You know we like to think we'reuseful in some way.
So we've just found ourselvesbeing pushed and challenged with
the clients that have beencoming to see us.
Well, how do we facilitate thisfor you?
(36:02):
And we come to a roadblock andwe go, oh, how do we get around
it?
And it's been a steep learningcurve for us and it's continuing
.
You know, this AI stuff's areally steep learning curve, but
we've managed to.
You know, have some reallyclever people and some fantastic
people come into our orbit andassist us to pull it all
(36:24):
together, sisters, to pull itall together, and we think it's.
You know, we're sort of flyinga little bit, you know, outside
our comfort zone at some time,but we keep getting reinforced
and we keep getting yeah, keepgoing boys.
So, while we're still gettingoutcomes, which is the end goal
(36:45):
for us, all then we're happy tocontinue while everyone's happy
with us.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Darren Cecil and Brett O'Brien.
I can't thank you enough forsharing.
I'm getting that this is thetip of the iceberg for what you
guys do.
But thank you so much forsharing a little bit of adaptive
medicine and your approach,because I've got to say I love
this, what you're saying.
You know initiating change andit's all for outcome.
It's not about input, it's allabout at the end you want them
(37:16):
to shake your hand and say thankyou and that to me is
sacrosanct the patient care.
I thank you so much for takingus through this model of
adaptive medicine and how youfunction in this space.
Thank you so much for joiningus today on Wellness of adaptive
medicine and how you functionin this space.
Thank you so much for joiningus today on Wellness by Designs.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Wonderful Thanks, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And thank you everyone for joining us.
Remember you can catch up onthis and the other podcasts on
the Designs for Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
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