September 12, 2024 • 34 mins
Explore corporate burnout solutions with experts Kath McFarlane and Jo Cooper, who transitioned from high-stress careers to functional medicine. Learn about burnout's impact on mental health, productivity, and business costs. Discover strategies to combat burnout through holistic wellness approaches, focusing on nutrition, movement, and emotional well-being.
Episode highlights:
- Personal burnout experiences in investment banking and law
- Remote work's role in exacerbating burnout
- Gen Z and millennial burnout trends
- Health Reflex: A holistic approach to corporate wellness
- Nutrition and supplementation for burnout recovery
- Integrating wellness into daily work routines
- The fertility-burnout connection
- Creating resilient, productive workplaces
About Jo:
- 8+ years as a corporate lawyer with HSBC, AEGIS Research and AAPT, in Hong Kong and Sydney
- 4+ years owning and running a cooking school centered on healthy living with a Euro-Asian focus
- Entrepreneur, Cookbook author “Our Tamarama Kitchen”
- LLB (UTS), MIntRel (Sydney University), BScNutrDiet (Endeavour) – ongoing 2018-24, Dip Putonghua (Beijing Language & Cultural University)
About Kath:
- 15 + years as a Naturopathic Practitioner
- Previously, 10+ years investment banking with Société Générale Australia Ltd, SG London Commodity Derivates, SG Singapore and UBS
- 5+ years commercial experience with CSR and TNT
- B. Bus (UTS), Adv Dip Naturopathy
About Health Reflex
The Health Reflex is a game-changing preventative health and wellness company that has developed personalised programs to help individuals such as you live and work to your potential. Our core principles are rooted in evidence-based medicine, with an unwavering dedication to proactive healthcare, enabling individuals to set their own path to health and wellbeing. We base our approach on four key pillars: nutrition, physical activity, social connections and emotional wellbeing.
Connect with Health Reflex: Wellness Programs | The Health Reflex
Shownotes and references are available on the Designs for Health website
Register as a Designs for Health Practitioner and discover quality practitioner- only supplements at www.designsforhealth.com.au
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DISCLAIMER: The Information provided in the Wellness by Designs podcast is for educational purposes only; the information presented is not intended to be used as medical advice; please seek the advice of a qualified healthcare professional if what you have heard here today raises questions or concerns relating to your health
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is KathMcFarlane and Jo Cooper, both
from the corporate world, whoare both now functional medicine
practitioners.
Kath is a naturopath and Jo isa nutritionist, and today we're
(00:37):
talking about navigating burnout.
Welcome to you both.
How are you?
Great, great, thank you.
Thanks for having us Ourpleasure.
Now could we start a little bitwith your backgrounds, because
you both come from thatcorporate world.
Kath, if I could start with you, where do you come from?
(00:58):
What was your trigger?
What on earth made you leavethat behind to move into
naturopathy?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
earth made you leave that behind to move into
naturopathy.
Well, I've been a naturopath inclinic for about 15 years, and
prior to that I was ininvestment banking with a French
bank and a Swiss bank tradingcommodity derivatives, and I did
that for a long period of time.
But I guess that it wasn't mytrue calling and and in that
time I actually experiencedburnout myself.
(01:31):
So I know what it feels like tobe exhausted, lose your
motivation and and your sense ofvalue in yourself yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, that's really key.
So you have a poignantappreciation of what patients or
people are going through.
So who are coming to seek helpfrom you?
Jo, how about yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
I have a corporate lawyer background, so I worked
in the corporate world as atransaction lawyer for HSBC in
Hong Kong and also in Singaporeand Sydney, and whilst I enjoyed
it, I found it pretty toughonce I had children.
(02:19):
So when I had babies, I gave upthe corporate world and then
decided to concentrate on thechildren and then got into
cooking in a big way.
I have a real passion for food,and so I ended up setting up a
cooking school, followed bywriting a cookbook that was
(02:40):
published in about 2015.
Published in about 2015.
So after that, I then decidedto study nutrition, because my
passion was so great andeveryone kept asking me for
advice on food and nutrition, sothat's how I pivoted.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Law is a pretty high pressure job as well.
Any issues of burnout yourselfthat made you aware of what was
going on.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Definitely around me.
So in banking and finance, youknow the hours are really long,
and especially in Asia, workingin Asia, where people you know
you're at the office at six inthe morning and leaving at seven
, eight o'clock at night.
So it's go, go, go.
And when I did it there wasvery much a face value.
(03:31):
Like you had to be in theoffice, you know, a lot of the
time you had to show your face.
Whether you're productive ornot was another question.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
But you had to actually be there, gotcha.
So how big an issue is burnoutin the corporate world and what
are the costs associated withburnout?
Jo, I'll start with you thistime.
Could you go first?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah well, burnout is huge, to the point that in 2019
, the World Health Organizationhas actually categorized it as a
syndrome, and they'vecategorized it.
It's it's under they underinternational classification of
(04:18):
diseases, number 11, and theyhave characterized it using
three criteria, and the first isfeelings of energy depletion
and exhaustion increase.
The second is increased mentaldistance from one's job, or
feelings of being negative orcynicism related to one's job,
(04:42):
and also that reducedprofessional efficacy.
And you know we see this allthe time and part of this has
been exacerbated even further.
So that was in 2019, sort ofpre-pandemic, and that's just
been exacerbated since COVID,where you know we're living in
(05:05):
this hyper-virtualised world.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
And we found some research that the WHO studied in
2019 that they estimated thatthe cost of burnout by 2030
would be $16 trillion, which isabsolutely phenomenal.
And in 2016, the World EconomicForum was estimating that the
(05:36):
cost of absenteeism andpresenteeism which is where
people might show up to work butthey're actually not fully
engaged in their work or they'lltake time off work and it's not
related to injury or illness,and that in 2016 alone was
costing the global economy $332billion a year.
(05:58):
So you can only imagine thatthat has really escalated post
the pandemic.
And when you ask the question,how big is it?
As Joe was sort of alluding tobefore, with this
hyper-virtualised world,post-pandemic, we're seeing more
people on the screen and weknow that from the literature,
(06:19):
excessive screen time isassociated with mental health
issues and greater risk ofburnout.
And we know, too, that workingfrom home, whilst it's got its
benefits, it's not all positiveand we are concerned because we
can see it when we speak tothese corporates that there's
(06:44):
more risk of people gettingburnout.
And you look at working fromhome, for example, a lot of
people are actually just workingback-to-back meetings, so
they'll start at eight andthey'll end at 6.
And often clients will say toJoe and I oh, I didn't have
lunch until 4 o'clock, I justgot caught up in my work.
(07:05):
Or they'll say I haven't goneoutside so they see no sunlight.
Their steps are probably lessthan 500 per day and for some
people, especially those wholove working from home,
sometimes there's a tendency forsocial isolation.
And we know, speaking to someHR departments, that they're now
(07:30):
starting to implement systemswhere they monitor their staff
more closely and they'll belooking at their keystrokes per
hour and clients and workers aresaying to us that creates a lot
more stress.
So, prior to the burnout sorry,prior to COVID burnout was a big
(07:51):
issue 2019.
But we believe that it'sExacerbated.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's growing, yeah, since COVID because of the whole
change in the landscape ofworking.
Yeah, and if you throw into themix, it's really a mix.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Figure me, you go.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
No, I was just going to say.
If you throw into the mixartificial intelligence, which
has escalated in the last 10months, that's a big thing that
we all need to be mindful of too.
That's all about speed ofprocessing and scalability, and
that's good for a machine, ordoable for a machine, but us
humans needing to achieve moreproductivity in a shorter amount
(08:36):
of time, is a recipe for a lotof stress.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
But you know, one of the issues I see here is this
the metrics that are used.
For instance, you spoke aboutkeystrokes.
Okay, I can do keystrokes, Ican just do that.
Heaps of keystrokes.
It's going to be gobbledygook,it's not going to be quality
output.
So I wonder if part of themessage that these corporate and
(09:03):
measurers need to learn isquality of output, not numeracy
of output.
You know, in the end it's gotto be for the benefit of the
company they're working with,surely?
But who measures these things?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
end.
It's got to be for the benefitof the company they're working
with, surely?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But who measures these things Like?
It's accountants?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Sorry, accountants, I'm lambasting you a bit.
Kath, you said a veryinteresting word there.
You said hyper-virtualised.
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, well, you see, we even see it in children.
You look at prior to isolation,kids were, yes, they were on
their phone, but isolation.
When we were locked down athome, the only way that children
could interact and communicatewas through Snapchat or WhatsApp
(10:02):
or what have you.
And then we've come out ofisolation and we've seen it even
as mothers.
We've seen it in our childrenand their friends that they are
just addicted to their phones somuch more than, say, five or
ten years ago.
And that's for the children.
And then you look at theworkers as well.
(10:22):
What one of our clients said tous recently prior to COVID,
she's a high level executive.
Prior to COVID, I didn't evenknow what Skype was.
Now she does 10 team meetings aday.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
And obviously it's starting sorry, I was just going
to say it's starting childrenat a really young age to not
switch off, which is part ofthis hyper-virtualised world
that we live in.
And an interesting study byAsana in 2022 looked at over
10,000 knowledge workers acrossseven countries and they found
(11:01):
that approximately 70% ofworkers experiencing burnout
last year so 21, were Gen Z andthen 74% of those were
millennials.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Wow, and I found that a really interesting fact which
is only going to get worse withthis later generation as well.
I take the point my eldest sonwas at uni and he's a very
(11:35):
confident man.
He stands upright and he waswalking through uni going g'day
how are you going?
And people were looking up fromtheir phones and going what
Like this?
They couldn't believe thatsomebody would actually say
hello.
It was the weirdest explanationof interpersonal communication.
(11:55):
It was so strange to me.
But anyway, guys, when we'retalking about your approach
versus others' approach toburnout, tell us what you do
differently compared to othersin the corporate world.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, we created our wellness company called the
Health Reflex, and one of ourmain goals is to focus on
corporate wellness and helpworkers and senior executives
understand what burnout is andsee those little white flags
that they're getting asindividuals before they hit the
(12:39):
brick wall, and Jo and I have areally shared passion there
around that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Coming from the corporate space, we understand
the pressures that we're all onthat we're all on, and so that's
, and part of that also isworking with the CEO and the
(13:05):
executive team to help them toidentify within their team
members and co-workers andemployees the little white flags
that can lead to burnout.
And that's really criticalbecause you know when you're
looking at a corporate, yourcorporate's only as good as your
employees.
Your greatest asset, theirgreatest asset are their
employees and you know if youremployees aren't working to
(13:28):
optimum potential, then yourcompany's not going to perform
to optimum potential.
So if we can get in there andprovide a toolkit as such for
top level management, for themto actually experience it and to
know and to have these toolkitson how to live a better life
(13:52):
and how to improve mentalresilience and physical
resilience and to improvequality of life, which is what
we all want, what everybodywants then you know that's a
really good thing.
And then to help identifywithin their team when
somebody's falling off the wagonor when you know one of those
(14:13):
three things that the WorldHealth Organisation have
identified sort of that apathyand that loss of interest or,
you know, identifying thefatigue and the exhaustion then
they can step in there beforethat person gets burnt out.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And one of the things that we believe makes our
program, or our corporatefoundation program, different is
that it's targeting the fourpillars of health, and that's
nutrition, movement, emotionalwell-being and social connection
.
And we're also making apersonalized approach and we're
(14:53):
trying to take it away from thescreens, because that's part of
what's causing the problem.
And we now know that a lot ofthe wellness companies in this
space that are app-based orplatform-based they're not
successful, and there was anarticle that came out in the New
(15:13):
York Times in January this yearthat was looking at the
research around that.
And we know, too, when we speakto CEOs and HR departments,
that they're saying that theiremployee engagement in app-based
wellness programs or one-offseminar at lunchtime about sleep
(15:34):
or nutrition doesn't havelong-lasting effects.
So what we're working to do isgive our clients self-health
literacy and support them.
Give them, make themaccountable while they're doing
our programs, because they arethe recipes for success and it's
it's helping people understandtheir bodies and improve their
(15:58):
connection between the brain andthe body, because when we're
all on the screens, we're all inthe head.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Do you find that your approach, being a nutritionist
and a naturopath, let's say,rather than a psychologist or an
occupational therapist,something like that that your
love of food, love of herbs,love of being in and being part
of nature, let's say do you findthat having that lens gives you
(16:28):
a unique perspective, that theygo oh, hang on, this is a
really different way of lookingat things.
Do you find that the CEOs, thatthe executive teams, they sit
up and listen because you'redifferent?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, we've had a comprehensive it's a holistic
approach to health and a lot ofpeople haven't ever come across
that before, so it's somethingnew.
And we've been surprisedbecause they do listen, because
what we do is evidence-based,it's not soft or fringe or
(17:07):
kumbaya-ish.
We're actually providing themwith evidence-based practice.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And then a lot of the people that we're speaking to,
those high executives.
They want to perform reallywell.
They're often those a typepersonalities and we hear with
burnout that they're more highlyrepresented in the burnout
because they'll go that extramile and they'll work those
(17:38):
extra hours.
Yeah, so it's worth mentioningthat too.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Take us through how this looks like.
In a program, you obviously geta meeting to talk about your
program.
Tell us how that looks, aboutincorporating that into the
workers' lives.
To say, okay, you have to taketime out from being productive
(18:07):
or less productive, you have tostop that, take time out and
then do these things to becomemore productive.
Take us through how thisactually looks.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Well, part of it we want to create, you know, health
reflexes for them.
So not necessarily taking timeout of their own productivity,
but actually, if they are takingtime out, it's teaching them to
take time out for self-care,basically, and actually
(18:40):
understanding the why, why weare asking them to do something
and to implement veryincrementally little things into
their day-to-day life.
So you know, for example, a lotof these workers are on their
screens the whole time.
(19:01):
So setting an alarm or beingmindful okay, after an hour of
solid work, setting an alarm for10, 15 minutes just to even
walk around the office and sayhello to some fellow co-workers
you know, have that socialconnection or, if they're
working from home, to walkaround the block or take their
(19:21):
dog for a walk or to just engagewith nature in a way, so just
being mindful of the reallylittle things that they can do
to help their wellbeing.
I mean, that's just one example.
We also give them a therapeuticmeal plan and we've crafted
that really carefully to try andmake it as easy and possible
(19:45):
for them to prepare nutritiousmeals so they're not skipping
breakfast and that they can graband go, and also understanding
the ingredients in the in themeals that they're preparing and
how they're going to help theirbody and help their mind and
make them more productive at theend of the day and increase
that quality of life.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Kath, you're a naturopath.
Do you get a chance toincorporate your love of
naturopathic medicines, like,for instance, herbs, in this
practice?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Oh yes for sure, for sure.
I mean when I think aboutburnout.
One of the top herbs that I goto is beautiful withania, that
non-stimulating adaptogenic herb.
I really love using that, andtime and time again I'll hear
patients come back after abouttwo weeks and they'll say my
(20:40):
energy's better, I'm no longertwo out of 10.
I'm not crying at the drop of ahat or short fuse and my focus
and my mental processing is alittle bit better.
And another beautiful herb thatI'll use in that typical
burnout patient might be saffron, and saffron is a lovely
(21:03):
example of plant medicine andone of the active constituents
that makes saffronneuroprotective is the yellow
colour of saffron.
And we know in addition tosaffron being neuroprotective,
it's also anti-inflammatory andit's a beautiful antioxidant too
.
So it's perfect for that brainthat's on fire, which is often
(21:27):
the case in some presentationsof burnout.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Do you ever get the chance to do any testing prior
to instigating treatment?
And I know this can be anexpense, but I'm just wondering
about those people that might bereally flagging, really lagging
, forgive me, in their workenjoyment, their work
performance.
Do you ever get, maybe thechance to perhaps do a CAR, a
(21:54):
cortisol awakening response test?
So, for instance, if somebodyhad really high cortisol you
might use phosphatidylserine fora short term just to blast it,
you know, just to get that down,and then move over to these
beautiful nourishing herbs likeashwagandha and afron and things
like that.
Do you ever get the chance todo testing?
(22:16):
Or is that an expense that somepeople might shirk away from?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, when we work with the corporate, we have our
corporate foundation program,but within that we're working
with individuals and we willformulate a treatment plan for
each individual.
So whether that involves somecortisol testing or it might
(22:43):
just maybe just some basicnutritional testing or some
hormonal testing, gut testing,microbiome map, we treat them
the same way that we would inour nutritional practice or our
naturopath, natural healthpractice.
But you generally find thatoften the senior executives that
(23:04):
they want to cover everything.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Sometimes they might consider dna testing as well
okay now forgive me, kath, I cutyou off and you were in the
middle of teaching us about whatherbs he used.
Let's go back to that.
So, ashwagandha saffron whatelse do you use?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I'll also consider lemon balm, and again I love
that for its calming action, butit's also got that antiviral
action too, and we know withpeople who are burnt out that if
that's been going on for a longperiod of time that can affect
their, their immune system, andone of the typical presentations
(23:43):
of burnout will will often besomeone that gets sick four or
five times a year, just thatconstant bronchitis or sinus
infection, and they never reallyget over it.
So immune herbs are alsobeautiful too, and that's why I
also consider the reishi andshiitake again beautiful for
(24:03):
immune modulating, but alsowonderful in states of
exhaustion, and we see that inthe literature too the mushrooms
.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Uh, whenever, whenever I forget about
incorporating mushrooms, I beatmyself over my head, over my
head, with a piece of wood.
They're just so far reaching intheir effect.
Joe, can I move to you here?
Do you use some nutritionalfoundation with people who are
(24:36):
just exhausted, like, forinstance, b vitamins at all?
Do you tend to go a multi?
Do you tend to use punchy doses.
How do you instigate this?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well, definitely B vitamins, for sure, because when
people are lacking energy, bvitamins are crucial, are
crucial.
And CoQ10, you know, bothcofactors in the citric acid
cycle and energy production.
So definitely the B vitaminsare a really good one.
(25:08):
And also vitamin C crucialbecause our adrenal glands
require vitamin C and when we'reburnt out or you know, it's
adrenal fatigue, so we need toincrease those amounts.
So you know that's reallyimportant.
And, of course, magnesium,magnesium is required in you
(25:32):
know, over 300 enzymaticreactions in our body.
But when we're burnt out or ourbody's under pressure,
obviously we're using a lot more, so we need to replenish that.
So you know that'd be my go-tokey nutraceuticals that I would
use definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I've got to say because you know you've met with
the executive team, uppermanagement.
They now give you thepermissions to deal with both
themselves and the workers whoare great at greatest need, but
then you have a personalisedplan for every single one of
those people that you engagewith.
That's a significant amount oftime to invest your time in them
(26:20):
.
So I'm going to ask thequestion who looks after you
guys?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, we try.
It's great having Joe as apartner, because we're always
there.
We try to practise what wepreach.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
And a lot of how we've come up with this
corporate foundation program isthrough our own experience and
whether that's throughmeditation or breath work or
mindset or eating well or herbs,we try to practise what we
preach and we're not saying that.
(27:02):
You know, we're sitting hereand we don't get stressed from
time to time and, yes, it is alot of work, but we want to make
sure that we're practising whatwe preach.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, a point that I was going to ask earlier I
forgot, and that is you know, wetalk about these things that we
can do around the office have abreak every half an hour, move
around the office and go and sayhello to people.
That's wonderful, that's great.
But for those people who aresitting in a chair, locked in a
position, one of the worstpositions you can be, separate
(27:42):
evidence on the effects ofseating, of sitting, on
longevity, heart disease, evencancers.
I think there's some evidence.
But then we might say, oh okay,I've got a standing desk, but
then people just stand, theydon't move, they just simply
stand in a static position.
Do you have to awaken people tothe benefits of not just moving
(28:07):
but say, stretching those tensemuscles, so like stretching
backs out, stretching glutes,shoulders, things like that,
when they're feeling stressed?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, absolutely, shoulders things like that when
they're feeling stressed.
Yeah, absolutely, and we evenhave, you know, a routine that
they can do with bands.
So taking, you know taking someTheraBands to work they're so
small and they're easy and youcan have them at your desk and
do all sorts of great exercises.
And if you've, you're workingwith a corporate and a team and
(28:38):
everyone's got those bands ontheir desk, you know they can
all set a time and go okay, guys, 15 minutes, let's do our band
routine, all of them together,which is quite fun and, you know
, breaks it up.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So, yeah, we have little hats.
I have this vision of an officewhere somebody you know they're
doing a stretch with an arm anda let's go.
So you see all these bandsflying across the office.
It would be rather colourful.
Now you guys are.
Forgive me, you go, jo.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Oh sorry, I was just going to say you know a lot of
people in the corporate world.
They're quite competitive, sothey want to be using that black
band or the red band and who'susing what colour band.
So you know, it can be quitefun and engaging if we you know,
if the corporates are into thatsort of thing.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Is there anything we haven't covered that you do,
that you incorporate in yourtoolkit?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
you do that, you incorporate in your toolkit
Probably the mindfulness aspect,so that emotional well-being,
looking at breathwork andmindfulness and all the evidence
we talk about that a lot withcorporates, because that's the
aspect where a lot of them sortof glaze over, especially, you
know, certain generations at thetop um, they look at meditation
as a bit soft.
(30:02):
But once you start talkingabout the key benefits and the
evidence to back this up, whichthere is quite a lot now, then
they sort of take more of a,they sit up and they go okay,
right, or, and we give themdifferent, different types of
practices so that they can findone that's right for them,
because you know, meditation isnot for everybody, but maybe
(30:24):
breath work is, or physiologicalsighing, or you know something
like that.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Another thing that we a big part of our program is
around education.
So it's really important to setup the why are you doing this,
so the motivation, but also thehow and the why is it important
that you have protein threetimes a day?
Or why is it important that youget outside and you get your
(30:55):
steps up?
For example, why is itimportant that we cut fried food
down?
Or sugar?
Why is it important to behydrated?
So once you really explain someof those concepts, people
people are a lot more compliant.
Yeah so, and the other thingthat is really important in our
(31:18):
program is teaching people tounderstand what their body's
trying to tell them, because somany people these days have no
idea what their digestion islike or their bowel motions are
like.
They don't take any notice.
So, a big part of it, we spendtime helping people understand
(31:39):
if you do this, you're going tofeel this way.
If you do this, you're going tofeel this way.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
And sort of getting them to understand that mind gut
connection as well and toidentify, through our module and
how we teach them of, howcertain things make them react.
So, whether it's, you know,food, or whether it's before
(32:04):
they're about to do apresentation or anything, to
actually get that mind-brainconnection going.
So they really have a better bythe time they leave our program
.
They have a really goodunderstanding of their body and
that's great, you know, that'sfantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That's fantastic.
Now you guys are doing aseminar.
Am I correct in saying this?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
yes, we will be doing a webinar um a little bit down
the track, um on fertility,which is a whole other issue and
sort of the fertility in apolluted world, because, you
(32:55):
know, a lot of people don'tunderstand the impact of
infertility that we'reexperiencing today.
One in six globally areinfertile, which has grown
exponentially, you know, overthe last 50 years and how our
environment impacts ourfertility status.
But also burnout is part ofthat as well.
(33:16):
Burnout really impactsfertility as well, for the you
know, 34-year-old worker, a-typepersonality.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Absolutely so.
Where can people find out moreabout this?
Is it your website, the HealthReflex?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Yes, yes, the Health Reflex.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Is that a comau?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
It is.
It is a comau.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Fantastic.
I look forward to seeing that.
It's such a big issue.
Fertility and burnout.
I mean, if you couldn't thinkabout two culprits that coexist
in the corporate world, hand inhand.
Um horrible stuff that's goingon there.
Um kath mcfarlane, um JoeCooper.
Thank you so much for taking usthrough this today.
It's such an it's a pervasiveissue.
(34:11):
It's an sadly, it's aburgeoning issue.
But I'm glad there's people atthe forefront of the coalface,
like yourselves, who've got adifferent slant on how to affect
change in a positive way, in atruly healthful way for their
patients.
So I really can't thank youenough for what you're doing for
the corporate workers.
Well done to you both.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Thank you so much for having us, Andrew.
We've really enjoyed it.
Yeah, thanks, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
Remember you can find all theother podcasts and indeed the
show notes for this podcast onthe Designs for Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is KathMcFarlane and Jo Cooper, both
from the corporate world, whoare both now functional medicine
practitioners.
Kath is a naturopath and Jo isa nutritionist, and today we're
(00:37):
talking about navigating burnout.
Welcome to you both.
How are you?
Great, great, thank you.
Thanks for having us Ourpleasure.
Now could we start a little bitwith your backgrounds, because
you both come from thatcorporate world.
Kath, if I could start with you, where do you come from?
(00:58):
What was your trigger?
What on earth made you leavethat behind to move into
naturopathy?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
earth made you leave that behind to move into
naturopathy.
Well, I've been a naturopath inclinic for about 15 years, and
prior to that I was ininvestment banking with a French
bank and a Swiss bank tradingcommodity derivatives, and I did
that for a long period of time.
But I guess that it wasn't mytrue calling and and in that
time I actually experiencedburnout myself.
(01:31):
So I know what it feels like tobe exhausted, lose your
motivation and and your sense ofvalue in yourself yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, that's really key.
So you have a poignantappreciation of what patients or
people are going through.
So who are coming to seek helpfrom you?
Jo, how about yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
I have a corporate lawyer background, so I worked
in the corporate world as atransaction lawyer for HSBC in
Hong Kong and also in Singaporeand Sydney, and whilst I enjoyed
it, I found it pretty toughonce I had children.
(02:19):
So when I had babies, I gave upthe corporate world and then
decided to concentrate on thechildren and then got into
cooking in a big way.
I have a real passion for food,and so I ended up setting up a
cooking school, followed bywriting a cookbook that was
(02:40):
published in about 2015.
Published in about 2015.
So after that, I then decidedto study nutrition, because my
passion was so great andeveryone kept asking me for
advice on food and nutrition, sothat's how I pivoted.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Law is a pretty high pressure job as well.
Any issues of burnout yourselfthat made you aware of what was
going on.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Definitely around me.
So in banking and finance, youknow the hours are really long,
and especially in Asia, workingin Asia, where people you know
you're at the office at six inthe morning and leaving at seven
, eight o'clock at night.
So it's go, go, go.
And when I did it there wasvery much a face value.
(03:31):
Like you had to be in theoffice, you know, a lot of the
time you had to show your face.
Whether you're productive ornot was another question.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
But you had to actually be there, gotcha.
So how big an issue is burnoutin the corporate world and what
are the costs associated withburnout?
Jo, I'll start with you thistime.
Could you go first?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah well, burnout is huge, to the point that in 2019
, the World Health Organizationhas actually categorized it as a
syndrome, and they'vecategorized it.
It's it's under they underinternational classification of
(04:18):
diseases, number 11, and theyhave characterized it using
three criteria, and the first isfeelings of energy depletion
and exhaustion increase.
The second is increased mentaldistance from one's job, or
feelings of being negative orcynicism related to one's job,
(04:42):
and also that reducedprofessional efficacy.
And you know we see this allthe time and part of this has
been exacerbated even further.
So that was in 2019, sort ofpre-pandemic, and that's just
been exacerbated since COVID,where you know we're living in
(05:05):
this hyper-virtualised world.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
And we found some research that the WHO studied in
2019 that they estimated thatthe cost of burnout by 2030
would be $16 trillion, which isabsolutely phenomenal.
And in 2016, the World EconomicForum was estimating that the
(05:36):
cost of absenteeism andpresenteeism which is where
people might show up to work butthey're actually not fully
engaged in their work or they'lltake time off work and it's not
related to injury or illness,and that in 2016 alone was
costing the global economy $332billion a year.
(05:58):
So you can only imagine thatthat has really escalated post
the pandemic.
And when you ask the question,how big is it?
As Joe was sort of alluding tobefore, with this
hyper-virtualised world,post-pandemic, we're seeing more
people on the screen and weknow that from the literature,
(06:19):
excessive screen time isassociated with mental health
issues and greater risk ofburnout.
And we know, too, that workingfrom home, whilst it's got its
benefits, it's not all positiveand we are concerned because we
can see it when we speak tothese corporates that there's
(06:44):
more risk of people gettingburnout.
And you look at working fromhome, for example, a lot of
people are actually just workingback-to-back meetings, so
they'll start at eight andthey'll end at 6.
And often clients will say toJoe and I oh, I didn't have
lunch until 4 o'clock, I justgot caught up in my work.
(07:05):
Or they'll say I haven't goneoutside so they see no sunlight.
Their steps are probably lessthan 500 per day and for some
people, especially those wholove working from home,
sometimes there's a tendency forsocial isolation.
And we know, speaking to someHR departments, that they're now
(07:30):
starting to implement systemswhere they monitor their staff
more closely and they'll belooking at their keystrokes per
hour and clients and workers aresaying to us that creates a lot
more stress.
So, prior to the burnout sorry,prior to COVID burnout was a big
(07:51):
issue 2019.
But we believe that it'sExacerbated.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's growing, yeah, since COVID because of the whole
change in the landscape ofworking.
Yeah, and if you throw into themix, it's really a mix.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Figure me, you go.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
No, I was just going to say.
If you throw into the mixartificial intelligence, which
has escalated in the last 10months, that's a big thing that
we all need to be mindful of too.
That's all about speed ofprocessing and scalability, and
that's good for a machine, ordoable for a machine, but us
humans needing to achieve moreproductivity in a shorter amount
(08:36):
of time, is a recipe for a lotof stress.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
But you know, one of the issues I see here is this
the metrics that are used.
For instance, you spoke aboutkeystrokes.
Okay, I can do keystrokes, Ican just do that.
Heaps of keystrokes.
It's going to be gobbledygook,it's not going to be quality
output.
So I wonder if part of themessage that these corporate and
(09:03):
measurers need to learn isquality of output, not numeracy
of output.
You know, in the end it's gotto be for the benefit of the
company they're working with,surely?
But who measures these things?
Speaker 3 (09:16):
end.
It's got to be for the benefitof the company they're working
with, surely?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
But who measures these things Like?
It's accountants?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Sorry, accountants, I'm lambasting you a bit.
Kath, you said a veryinteresting word there.
You said hyper-virtualised.
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, well, you see, we even see it in children.
You look at prior to isolation,kids were, yes, they were on
their phone, but isolation.
When we were locked down athome, the only way that children
could interact and communicatewas through Snapchat or WhatsApp
(10:02):
or what have you.
And then we've come out ofisolation and we've seen it even
as mothers.
We've seen it in our childrenand their friends that they are
just addicted to their phones somuch more than, say, five or
ten years ago.
And that's for the children.
And then you look at theworkers as well.
(10:22):
What one of our clients said tous recently prior to COVID,
she's a high level executive.
Prior to COVID, I didn't evenknow what Skype was.
Now she does 10 team meetings aday.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
And obviously it's starting sorry, I was just going
to say it's starting childrenat a really young age to not
switch off, which is part ofthis hyper-virtualised world
that we live in.
And an interesting study byAsana in 2022 looked at over
10,000 knowledge workers acrossseven countries and they found
(11:01):
that approximately 70% ofworkers experiencing burnout
last year so 21, were Gen Z andthen 74% of those were
millennials.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Wow, and I found that a really interesting fact which
is only going to get worse withthis later generation as well.
I take the point my eldest sonwas at uni and he's a very
(11:35):
confident man.
He stands upright and he waswalking through uni going g'day
how are you going?
And people were looking up fromtheir phones and going what
Like this?
They couldn't believe thatsomebody would actually say
hello.
It was the weirdest explanationof interpersonal communication.
(11:55):
It was so strange to me.
But anyway, guys, when we'retalking about your approach
versus others' approach toburnout, tell us what you do
differently compared to othersin the corporate world.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, we created our wellness company called the
Health Reflex, and one of ourmain goals is to focus on
corporate wellness and helpworkers and senior executives
understand what burnout is andsee those little white flags
that they're getting asindividuals before they hit the
(12:39):
brick wall, and Jo and I have areally shared passion there
around that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Coming from the corporate space, we understand
the pressures that we're all onthat we're all on, and so that's
, and part of that also isworking with the CEO and the
(13:05):
executive team to help them toidentify within their team
members and co-workers andemployees the little white flags
that can lead to burnout.
And that's really criticalbecause you know when you're
looking at a corporate, yourcorporate's only as good as your
employees.
Your greatest asset, theirgreatest asset are their
employees and you know if youremployees aren't working to
(13:28):
optimum potential, then yourcompany's not going to perform
to optimum potential.
So if we can get in there andprovide a toolkit as such for
top level management, for themto actually experience it and to
know and to have these toolkitson how to live a better life
(13:52):
and how to improve mentalresilience and physical
resilience and to improvequality of life, which is what
we all want, what everybodywants then you know that's a
really good thing.
And then to help identifywithin their team when
somebody's falling off the wagonor when you know one of those
(14:13):
three things that the WorldHealth Organisation have
identified sort of that apathyand that loss of interest or,
you know, identifying thefatigue and the exhaustion then
they can step in there beforethat person gets burnt out.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And one of the things that we believe makes our
program, or our corporatefoundation program, different is
that it's targeting the fourpillars of health, and that's
nutrition, movement, emotionalwell-being and social connection
.
And we're also making apersonalized approach and we're
(14:53):
trying to take it away from thescreens, because that's part of
what's causing the problem.
And we now know that a lot ofthe wellness companies in this
space that are app-based orplatform-based they're not
successful, and there was anarticle that came out in the New
(15:13):
York Times in January this yearthat was looking at the
research around that.
And we know, too, when we speakto CEOs and HR departments,
that they're saying that theiremployee engagement in app-based
wellness programs or one-offseminar at lunchtime about sleep
(15:34):
or nutrition doesn't havelong-lasting effects.
So what we're working to do isgive our clients self-health
literacy and support them.
Give them, make themaccountable while they're doing
our programs, because they arethe recipes for success and it's
it's helping people understandtheir bodies and improve their
(15:58):
connection between the brain andthe body, because when we're
all on the screens, we're all inthe head.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Do you find that your approach, being a nutritionist
and a naturopath, let's say,rather than a psychologist or an
occupational therapist,something like that that your
love of food, love of herbs,love of being in and being part
of nature, let's say do you findthat having that lens gives you
(16:28):
a unique perspective, that theygo oh, hang on, this is a
really different way of lookingat things.
Do you find that the CEOs, thatthe executive teams, they sit
up and listen because you'redifferent?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, we've had a comprehensive it's a holistic
approach to health and a lot ofpeople haven't ever come across
that before, so it's somethingnew.
And we've been surprisedbecause they do listen, because
what we do is evidence-based,it's not soft or fringe or
(17:07):
kumbaya-ish.
We're actually providing themwith evidence-based practice.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And then a lot of the people that we're speaking to,
those high executives.
They want to perform reallywell.
They're often those a typepersonalities and we hear with
burnout that they're more highlyrepresented in the burnout
because they'll go that extramile and they'll work those
(17:38):
extra hours.
Yeah, so it's worth mentioningthat too.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Take us through how this looks like.
In a program, you obviously geta meeting to talk about your
program.
Tell us how that looks, aboutincorporating that into the
workers' lives.
To say, okay, you have to taketime out from being productive
(18:07):
or less productive, you have tostop that, take time out and
then do these things to becomemore productive.
Take us through how thisactually looks.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Well, part of it we want to create, you know, health
reflexes for them.
So not necessarily taking timeout of their own productivity,
but actually, if they are takingtime out, it's teaching them to
take time out for self-care,basically, and actually
(18:40):
understanding the why, why weare asking them to do something
and to implement veryincrementally little things into
their day-to-day life.
So you know, for example, a lotof these workers are on their
screens the whole time.
(19:01):
So setting an alarm or beingmindful okay, after an hour of
solid work, setting an alarm for10, 15 minutes just to even
walk around the office and sayhello to some fellow co-workers
you know, have that socialconnection or, if they're
working from home, to walkaround the block or take their
(19:21):
dog for a walk or to just engagewith nature in a way, so just
being mindful of the reallylittle things that they can do
to help their wellbeing.
I mean, that's just one example.
We also give them a therapeuticmeal plan and we've crafted
that really carefully to try andmake it as easy and possible
(19:45):
for them to prepare nutritiousmeals so they're not skipping
breakfast and that they can graband go, and also understanding
the ingredients in the in themeals that they're preparing and
how they're going to help theirbody and help their mind and
make them more productive at theend of the day and increase
that quality of life.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Kath, you're a naturopath.
Do you get a chance toincorporate your love of
naturopathic medicines, like,for instance, herbs, in this
practice?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Oh yes for sure, for sure.
I mean when I think aboutburnout.
One of the top herbs that I goto is beautiful withania, that
non-stimulating adaptogenic herb.
I really love using that, andtime and time again I'll hear
patients come back after abouttwo weeks and they'll say my
(20:40):
energy's better, I'm no longertwo out of 10.
I'm not crying at the drop of ahat or short fuse and my focus
and my mental processing is alittle bit better.
And another beautiful herb thatI'll use in that typical
burnout patient might be saffron, and saffron is a lovely
(21:03):
example of plant medicine andone of the active constituents
that makes saffronneuroprotective is the yellow
colour of saffron.
And we know in addition tosaffron being neuroprotective,
it's also anti-inflammatory andit's a beautiful antioxidant too
.
So it's perfect for that brainthat's on fire, which is often
(21:27):
the case in some presentationsof burnout.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Do you ever get the chance to do any testing prior
to instigating treatment?
And I know this can be anexpense, but I'm just wondering
about those people that might bereally flagging, really lagging
, forgive me, in their workenjoyment, their work
performance.
Do you ever get, maybe thechance to perhaps do a CAR, a
(21:54):
cortisol awakening response test?
So, for instance, if somebodyhad really high cortisol you
might use phosphatidylserine fora short term just to blast it,
you know, just to get that down,and then move over to these
beautiful nourishing herbs likeashwagandha and afron and things
like that.
Do you ever get the chance todo testing?
(22:16):
Or is that an expense that somepeople might shirk away from?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, when we work with the corporate, we have our
corporate foundation program,but within that we're working
with individuals and we willformulate a treatment plan for
each individual.
So whether that involves somecortisol testing or it might
(22:43):
just maybe just some basicnutritional testing or some
hormonal testing, gut testing,microbiome map, we treat them
the same way that we would inour nutritional practice or our
naturopath, natural healthpractice.
But you generally find thatoften the senior executives that
(23:04):
they want to cover everything.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Sometimes they might consider dna testing as well
okay now forgive me, kath, I cutyou off and you were in the
middle of teaching us about whatherbs he used.
Let's go back to that.
So, ashwagandha saffron whatelse do you use?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I'll also consider lemon balm, and again I love
that for its calming action, butit's also got that antiviral
action too, and we know withpeople who are burnt out that if
that's been going on for a longperiod of time that can affect
their, their immune system, andone of the typical presentations
(23:43):
of burnout will will often besomeone that gets sick four or
five times a year, just thatconstant bronchitis or sinus
infection, and they never reallyget over it.
So immune herbs are alsobeautiful too, and that's why I
also consider the reishi andshiitake again beautiful for
(24:03):
immune modulating, but alsowonderful in states of
exhaustion, and we see that inthe literature too the mushrooms
.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Uh, whenever, whenever I forget about
incorporating mushrooms, I beatmyself over my head, over my
head, with a piece of wood.
They're just so far reaching intheir effect.
Joe, can I move to you here?
Do you use some nutritionalfoundation with people who are
(24:36):
just exhausted, like, forinstance, b vitamins at all?
Do you tend to go a multi?
Do you tend to use punchy doses.
How do you instigate this?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Well, definitely B vitamins, for sure, because when
people are lacking energy, bvitamins are crucial, are
crucial.
And CoQ10, you know, bothcofactors in the citric acid
cycle and energy production.
So definitely the B vitaminsare a really good one.
(25:08):
And also vitamin C crucialbecause our adrenal glands
require vitamin C and when we'reburnt out or you know, it's
adrenal fatigue, so we need toincrease those amounts.
So you know that's reallyimportant.
And, of course, magnesium,magnesium is required in you
(25:32):
know, over 300 enzymaticreactions in our body.
But when we're burnt out or ourbody's under pressure,
obviously we're using a lot more, so we need to replenish that.
So you know that'd be my go-tokey nutraceuticals that I would
use definitely.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I've got to say because you know you've met with
the executive team, uppermanagement.
They now give you thepermissions to deal with both
themselves and the workers whoare great at greatest need, but
then you have a personalisedplan for every single one of
those people that you engagewith.
That's a significant amount oftime to invest your time in them
(26:20):
.
So I'm going to ask thequestion who looks after you
guys?
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, we try.
It's great having Joe as apartner, because we're always
there.
We try to practise what wepreach.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
And a lot of how we've come up with this
corporate foundation program isthrough our own experience and
whether that's throughmeditation or breath work or
mindset or eating well or herbs,we try to practise what we
preach and we're not saying that.
(27:02):
You know, we're sitting hereand we don't get stressed from
time to time and, yes, it is alot of work, but we want to make
sure that we're practising whatwe preach.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, a point that I was going to ask earlier I
forgot, and that is you know, wetalk about these things that we
can do around the office have abreak every half an hour, move
around the office and go and sayhello to people.
That's wonderful, that's great.
But for those people who aresitting in a chair, locked in a
position, one of the worstpositions you can be, separate
(27:42):
evidence on the effects ofseating, of sitting, on
longevity, heart disease, evencancers.
I think there's some evidence.
But then we might say, oh okay,I've got a standing desk, but
then people just stand, theydon't move, they just simply
stand in a static position.
Do you have to awaken people tothe benefits of not just moving
(28:07):
but say, stretching those tensemuscles, so like stretching
backs out, stretching glutes,shoulders, things like that,
when they're feeling stressed?
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, absolutely, shoulders things like that when
they're feeling stressed.
Yeah, absolutely, and we evenhave, you know, a routine that
they can do with bands.
So taking, you know taking someTheraBands to work they're so
small and they're easy and youcan have them at your desk and
do all sorts of great exercises.
And if you've, you're workingwith a corporate and a team and
(28:38):
everyone's got those bands ontheir desk, you know they can
all set a time and go okay, guys, 15 minutes, let's do our band
routine, all of them together,which is quite fun and, you know
, breaks it up.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So, yeah, we have little hats.
I have this vision of an officewhere somebody you know they're
doing a stretch with an arm anda let's go.
So you see all these bandsflying across the office.
It would be rather colourful.
Now you guys are.
Forgive me, you go, jo.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Oh sorry, I was just going to say you know a lot of
people in the corporate world.
They're quite competitive, sothey want to be using that black
band or the red band and who'susing what colour band.
So you know, it can be quitefun and engaging if we you know,
if the corporates are into thatsort of thing.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Is there anything we haven't covered that you do,
that you incorporate in yourtoolkit?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
you do that, you incorporate in your toolkit
Probably the mindfulness aspect,so that emotional well-being,
looking at breathwork andmindfulness and all the evidence
we talk about that a lot withcorporates, because that's the
aspect where a lot of them sortof glaze over, especially, you
know, certain generations at thetop um, they look at meditation
as a bit soft.
(30:02):
But once you start talkingabout the key benefits and the
evidence to back this up, whichthere is quite a lot now, then
they sort of take more of a,they sit up and they go okay,
right, or, and we give themdifferent, different types of
practices so that they can findone that's right for them,
because you know, meditation isnot for everybody, but maybe
(30:24):
breath work is, or physiologicalsighing, or you know something
like that.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Another thing that we a big part of our program is
around education.
So it's really important to setup the why are you doing this,
so the motivation, but also thehow and the why is it important
that you have protein threetimes a day?
Or why is it important that youget outside and you get your
(30:55):
steps up?
For example, why is itimportant that we cut fried food
down?
Or sugar?
Why is it important to behydrated?
So once you really explain someof those concepts, people
people are a lot more compliant.
Yeah so, and the other thingthat is really important in our
(31:18):
program is teaching people tounderstand what their body's
trying to tell them, because somany people these days have no
idea what their digestion islike or their bowel motions are
like.
They don't take any notice.
So, a big part of it, we spendtime helping people understand
(31:39):
if you do this, you're going tofeel this way.
If you do this, you're going tofeel this way.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
And sort of getting them to understand that mind gut
connection as well and toidentify, through our module and
how we teach them of, howcertain things make them react.
So, whether it's, you know,food, or whether it's before
(32:04):
they're about to do apresentation or anything, to
actually get that mind-brainconnection going.
So they really have a better bythe time they leave our program
.
They have a really goodunderstanding of their body and
that's great, you know, that'sfantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That's fantastic.
Now you guys are doing aseminar.
Am I correct in saying this?
Speaker 3 (32:34):
yes, we will be doing a webinar um a little bit down
the track, um on fertility,which is a whole other issue and
sort of the fertility in apolluted world, because, you
(32:55):
know, a lot of people don'tunderstand the impact of
infertility that we'reexperiencing today.
One in six globally areinfertile, which has grown
exponentially, you know, overthe last 50 years and how our
environment impacts ourfertility status.
But also burnout is part ofthat as well.
(33:16):
Burnout really impactsfertility as well, for the you
know, 34-year-old worker, a-typepersonality.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Absolutely so.
Where can people find out moreabout this?
Is it your website, the HealthReflex?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Yes, yes, the Health Reflex.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Is that a comau?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
It is.
It is a comau.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Fantastic.
I look forward to seeing that.
It's such a big issue.
Fertility and burnout.
I mean, if you couldn't thinkabout two culprits that coexist
in the corporate world, hand inhand.
Um horrible stuff that's goingon there.
Um kath mcfarlane, um JoeCooper.
Thank you so much for taking usthrough this today.
It's such an it's a pervasiveissue.
(34:11):
It's an sadly, it's aburgeoning issue.
But I'm glad there's people atthe forefront of the coalface,
like yourselves, who've got adifferent slant on how to affect
change in a positive way, in atruly healthful way for their
patients.
So I really can't thank youenough for what you're doing for
the corporate workers.
Well done to you both.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Thank you so much for having us, Andrew.
We've really enjoyed it.
Yeah, thanks, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
Remember you can find all theother podcasts and indeed the
show notes for this podcast onthe Designs for Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
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