May 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Gut Health, Food as Medicine, and the Power of Simplicity with Lee Holmes
Clinical nutritionist Lee Holmes shares her personal journey from Crohn’s disease and fibromyalgia to vibrant health—and how gut healing became the foundation of her clinical philosophy.
In this heartfelt and practical episode, Lee explores the therapeutic power of whole foods, the impact of stress on the microbiome, and why gentle, digestible nutrition is often the most powerful intervention.
Practitioners will gain insights into restoring microbial balance, supporting gut lining integrity, and helping patients adopt sustainable habits without triggering restriction or anxiety.
From prebiotic-rich foods to the importance of mindful eating and family meals, this conversation offers a refreshing, real-world approach to digestive healing—grounded in both evidence and compassion.
Connect with Lee: Supercharged Food – Supercharged Food, gluten, sugar and dairy free anti-inflammatory recipes to heal
Discover Lee's latest books: Bookshelf – Supercharged Food
Shownotes and references are available on the Designs for Health website
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DISCLAIMER: The Information provided in the Wellness by Designs podcast is for educational purposes only; the information presented is not intended to be used as medical advice; please seek the advice of a qualified healthcare professional if what you have heard here today raises questions or concerns relating to your health
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs andI'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is LeighHolmes, who's a clinical
nutritionist, a yoga teacher, awhole foods chef and an author.
Leigh also runs a four-weekonline program called Heal your
(00:38):
Gut.
Welcome to Wellness by Designs,leigh.
How are you?
I'm great.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's really good to be here.
Absolute pleasure to have youon the show Now, lee.
Firstly, I've got to thank youfor your time today.
I know you're very busy, butlet's go back into history.
What first got you interestedin gut health?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, I've always kind of been interested in
health.
But I was working at the ABC inSydney about 12 years ago and I
got really sick, sort of reallyquite rapidly Lost a lot of
weight.
My hair was falling out, I wascovered in hives, I kept on
going to work as you do I was aparent kept on pushing myself
till eventually I couldn'treally go on any further and I
(01:20):
went through the medical system,which I found to be really
quite complex because I feltlike I was being pushed from one
doctor to another with no realanswers to anything at all.
So then what happened was Ieventually was diagnosed with an
autoimmune disease which eightyears later was diagnosed as
Crohn's, and something calledfibromyalgia, which was, I felt,
(01:42):
really achy and stiff when Igot up.
So from there I was put on thisconcoction of different
prescription medications whichreally messed me and threw me
around a lot and I started toget really interested in gut
health.
Back then I said to them do youthink you know this has
anything to do with diet?
Because I noticed when I eatcertain things my symptoms
really flare up, especiallythings like MSG and a lot of the
(02:04):
preservatives in foods.
I was putting lean cuisine inthe microwave and, you know, for
lunch at work and it would justmake me feel really itchy and
tired after eating.
And they said, no, no, nothingto do with your gut whatsoever,
even though I have since beendiagnosed with Crohn's.
So I was sort of on that sort ofjourney of learning about
(02:25):
natural health and I reallyintrinsically thought it was my
gut.
So I went home after being inhospital at St Vincent's for a
little bit and started to cookreally simple foods, because I
just felt like I needed to justpare everything back and just go
back to simple eating and wholefoods and things like that.
And I did that and it reallyhelped a lot.
And I was using garlic insteadof a lot of the antibiotics I
(02:47):
was given and curcumin andturmeric and, as you know, even
my gastroenterologist isprescribing them to his patients
now, which is amazing.
So I started to look atdifferent food and food
ingredients and it really helpedme and I got so passionate
about gut health.
I went back to study.
For six years I studiedclinical nutrition and I did two
courses in clinical nutritionand then I started my blog,
(03:09):
supercharged Food, and yeah, Ikind of just went from there and
I really do feel like the gutis the epicenter to health and
that was kind of where I kneweverything was stemming from.
That's how I got into it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Lee, can I ask you because this has been something
of interest to me for some yearsyou mentioned pairing back the
foods for a certain time, sokeeping them simpler.
I've seen um, agastroenterologist, for instance
, uh, in the mid north coast ofnew south wales.
(03:43):
Uh, uh, putting his now I thinkit was ulcerative colitis
patients on.
Yeah, and, and this was amilk-based, uh protein, high
calorie, uh liquid, but it was.
It was only for a short periodof time.
(04:03):
Now, admittedly, it wasdairy-based and a lot of people
react to dairy.
I get it.
I get our preponderance to tryand avoid dairy, but I wonder if
all of these different types ofthings, even like the carnivore
diet for autoimmune disease,whatever sort of diet it is,
(04:24):
when they're paired back into asimple thing, is it that it's
oligoantigenic?
Is it that part of this restfor the gut is just saying can
you just leave me alone for abit and just give me one or two
things to think about, ratherthan 20 million?
yeah but then the job of healingbegins.
What take me through this?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
I I actually completely agree with that and
everything that you're saying.
I know for me personally and alot of my clients.
When you pare things back, Ithink less is more we can really
overwhelm our gut andespecially with taking things
and lots of different things andit's just the the system.
When it's when you, when youhave in a basis of inflammatory
(05:04):
issues or you have immunedysregulation, which obviously
you know the immune system, alot of it is kind of produced.
Your immune cells are producedin the gut.
When you think about that,pairing it back and going really
simple with food for medefinitely helped me so much.
And then trying to do thingsthat are cooked or or, um, like
(05:26):
smoothies, just something reallygentle on the digestion, so
you're not then digesting lotsof salads and nuts and really
harsh things.
I found for me that reallyhelped as well with things like
bloating and things like painafter eating and things like
that.
So I think just going back tobasics and very, a very simple
diet, even just for a littleperiod of time, allows the body
(05:47):
and the gut to sort of resetitself and calm down and really
calm down any inflammation andwhat have you for the Crohn's.
It really helped me a lot, andthen trying to eat more sort of
whole foods, if you can.
I found that that was reallyhelpful because I wasn't then
trying to process artificialsugars and all these other
things that kind of are quitedifficult for the body to
(06:08):
actually process.
So, yeah, I completely agreewith you.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, and so obviously, though, at some stage
you have to start reintroducingfoods, and you know we need to
think about healthy choicesrather than unhealthy choices.
So so how do you do that withpatients, particularly when
they've got bad habits thatthey've hopefully we'd love to
(06:34):
say they've left them behind,but their habits you know.
How do you prevent patients?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
from falling back into the same old rut.
Yeah, I think certainly, if yougive them too many things to do
, it's overwhelming for them.
So I try and change one thing aday.
So, whether it's getting up inthe morning and having a
smoothie with lots of differentlike fibre-rich veggies or some
fruit or some good fats,flaxseed, that kind of thing I
find that that kind of sets themup for the day, whereas if they
(07:03):
start going back to their oldhabits some flaxseed that kind
of thing I find that that kindof sets them up for the day,
Whereas if they start going backto their old habits and in the
morning especially, just eatingcereal with lots of sugar and
lots of dairy and what have youit kind of just they're like oh,
I feel terrible.
Anyway, I may as well just eatwhat I want.
So I try and just start withsimple things.
Simple things like just havinga smoothie, or maybe just
cooking meals ahead, or maybejust having a food prepared, or
(07:28):
just very, very simple things,and definitely nothing too much
for them.
I find that they just they'rebusy, everyone's busy and
working, and they have familiesand things like that.
So it is very difficult.
So, yeah, pairing it back,going back again to simplicity.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, I totally agree with you, like the.
I mean, we know from historicaldata that people who tried and
break a habit very often fallback into the same habit.
And I think you're right inthat.
People try and change the wholething, the whole thing in one
fell swoop, and then they getconfused and fall off the wagon.
(08:08):
So this gentle change, you know, and I think also a knowledge
of why they're changing thatthing a day or even every week,
whatever they're doing aboutokay, this is why I'm doing that
, that's why I'm doing this thenthat can give them the
reasoning for changing theirhabits to healthy habits.
(08:30):
Yeah, lee, can I ask you, can Iask you?
At the beginning you mentionedthe two diagnoses.
One of them was Crohn's and,forgive me, I missed the other
one.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Oh, fibromyalgia, which is sort of like feels like
arthritis.
So I was waking up in themorning so stiff I felt like a
99-year-old woman.
I was like, why am I so stiff?
And fibromyalgia is a reallyfunny one, because you can also
feel it when the weather changesor the barometric pressure
changes.
(09:02):
It's a really bizarre thing.
You feel stiff and you feelachy, a little bit like
arthritis.
So yeah, and you also you havegut issues with it too.
It was all kind of interrelatedand I feel that I've done a lot
of research on this and Crohn's, and you also have gut issues
with it too.
It was all kind of interrelatedand I feel that I've done a lot
of research on this and Crohn's, and it's almost like a
triangle where you have somekind of irritable bowel disease
(09:23):
and then you have fibromyalgiaon top of that and some kind of
inflammatory issue or a bladderissue as well.
It's like a triangle.
I've noticed with clients aswell.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, you were mentioning also, you know, being
a mother trying to push throughonce the symptoms appeared and,
of course, it just ran yourbody into the ground, this whole
stress response being one ofthe major drivers of
inflammation, certainly in the21st century.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, take us through that.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
How do you talk to your patients?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
yeah, um, I think that stress is.
There's research out there, asyou know, that stress can
actually strip the body of good,of good bacteria, so your
microbiome goes out of balance.
And when your microbiome goesout of balance and your gut's
out of whack, there are so manythings that happen.
Your sleep's affected, as youknow, your skin, you many things
that happen.
Your sleep's affected, as youknow, your skin.
You get skin disruptions, allof that sort of stuff.
(10:17):
So what I say to them is justto, yeah, again, just go back to
basics.
And I became a yoga andmeditation teacher when I was
kind of like learning nutritionand I found that Vedic
meditation, which is somethingthat I do for like 20 minutes a
day, was just a little thingthat I could do in the morning.
(10:37):
That really set me up for theday and really helped with any
kind of nervous systemdysregulation, because I feel
like nervous systemdysregulation and feeling wired,
a lot of people are stressedand anxious and wired.
If we can get to sort of thebottom of that, it's going to
help all of the other thingsthat happen.
So for me, it's like littlethings like breathing, doing
(11:00):
some deep breaths, a bit ofmeditation, also mindful eating.
So I do talk to my clients alot about mindful eating and
also you know when a lot of themare, you know, working, they
eat on on the run, they don'tsit down, they don't chew their
food properly, and then they'rebloated, they gassy afterwards
and they're like, oh, why am Iso?
Why have I got all thesesymptoms?
(11:22):
So sometimes it's just simplethings like that, like mindful
eating and paying a little bitmore attention to sitting down
and chewing better, and thatdefinitely those little things
actually do really helpdigestion as well, I've found.
And also the other thing isgoing for a little walk after
eating, which can help stimulatedigestion, and that's that
those little things have beenvery helpful for my clients and
(11:43):
they find them easier thanhaving a whole regime of things
to do, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
One of the interesting symptoms I've seen
in is they'll eat in asympathetically stimulated state
, but the feeling of bloatednessis not in the stomach area.
(12:10):
The feeling of bloatedness thatthey get immediately after a
meal is actually in their lowerabdomen.
Right, okay, that's a goodpoint and I find that, hmm, like
, are we talking aboutsympathetic, parasympathetic
nervous stimulation?
Are we talking about, like, animmediate effect on fermentation
?
Yeah, do we have an answerthere?
(12:33):
Do we have any?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
clues.
I don't know.
Is it to do with the smallintestine and um the b12 and
iron that you're kind of tryingto get from your food, and
because some, a lot of peoplelike with microns, it's actually
in the small intestine, so alot of people have issues there
and then you do get that likelower loading from that as well.
(12:57):
So it could be that, um, yeah,perhaps yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
So I remember going through this conundrum, going
okay, do I give her a digestiveenzyme because she's eating in
the paris in a sympatheticallystimulated state and talk about
stress and vagus nervestimulation and things like this
.
Or do I give her something forthe lower bowel like a uh, you
know, an anti-bloating type?
(13:21):
Uh, uh yeah what do we call it?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
a carminative, you know yeah, carminative yeah, um
yeah, that's a good point.
A lot of people just stage me.
I feel like I'm pregnant.
I'm six months pregnant.
My tummy's so distended.
They haven't really made thedistinction between the two.
So, yeah, that's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Do you ever favour, like always starting at the top,
or no, let's get things movingfirst and then we'll go back to
digestion later.
Do you ever favour one over theother?
You know what?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I feel like everyone is so different and when I see
that it's a stress-relatedresponse or a nervous system
dysregulation, I kind of workmore on getting them to try and
relax and have more calmativeapproaches to what they're
actually doing, rather thanimmediately jumping to things to
(14:17):
give them, like supplements andthings like that.
I try and work more on that, ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
What about, though, herbs thatsupport the nervous system
during times of stress?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, I think a lot of people are now looking to
ashwagandha like a lot.
You know how a lot of peopletalk about that at the moment.
Um, I think that that's beenquite helpful for people.
Some people like if they'reconstipated and things like that
and have a nervous thingsometimes.
Magnesium is something that Ilook to for clients as well.
(14:54):
Also, when looking at the wholemicrobiome, I would look at like
a symbiotic type product with aprobiotic, prebiotic, digestive
enzyme and dietary fiber in one, because I feel like fiber is
very underrated when it comes togut health and you know a lot
of people have been on paleodiets as well and they're not
getting enough prebiotic richfibers.
(15:15):
They're going, oh, I can't eatthat sweet potato because I'm
paleo, but then they're allcoming to me with gut issues
going oh, I was on paleo and nowmy gut's not working properly
and they're not getting enoughprebiotic rich fibers.
So, yeah, I talk to them abouttheir diet a little bit.
We'll go through what they'reeating and make a few little
tweaks.
To start with, Do you know?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
one of the things about paleo that interested me
is that when I need to keep aperson's name out of this, out
(16:02):
of this, this person basicallyformulated the dietary
requirements for a symposium,and when I went out there
expecting to see meat upon meatupon meat upon meat, I was met
with salad upon salad upon saladupon salad and there's some
meat.
It was not the carnivore dietat all.
The paleo diet was largelyplant-based and I thought about
it and I thought hang on.
(16:23):
So while these neolithic humanswere chasing down the meat
prize, they had to eat along theway, and the things that were
along the way were berries andtubers, and things like that.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, I thought so.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Is it that we actually got what we thought
something was paleo diet?
Is it that we've just beendoing it wrong?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I think, like I don't subscribe to any particular
diets, like keto, paleo.
For me it's all about balance,whole foods, rainbow, eat the
rainbow, things like that wrongand right like.
For me it's like the angeldevil thing.
I think for a lot of my clientsas well, they have that
thinking and so it's very blackand white like they, they're
(17:10):
very much like them.
I can't eat this and it setsyou up for a bit of, you know,
eating disorder um territory.
When they're, they're kind ofgoing down that road.
So I basically try and makethings.
I don't try to subscribe to anydiets and say we're doing it
right or wrong sort of thing.
Does that make sense?
yeah, absolutely, and it's avery salient point about point
(17:35):
about you make about thelanguage that we use that can,
in a susceptible person, leadthem down an eating disorder
time, um sort of framework yeah,I agree, and things like
orthorexia, where I have someclients who they don't just eat
clean, they eat squeaky cleanand because of that they're
anxious about what they eat, andthen that anxiety sets them up
(17:56):
for more dysregulation and it'sjust a cycle I've found.
So, yeah, I try and just keepthings nice and gentle.
I'm a very gentle nutritionistand I just try and get them to
choose for themselves and thinka bit more for themselves, give
them the options and and thatkind of thing, but just say to
them you know, don't be toostrict on yourself, because
(18:17):
that's just who wants to livelike that.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Well, it's a good point.
You know Like it's somethingthat certain cultures really get
right.
You know the Mediterraneanculture, it's not just about the
food, it's about the socialinteraction.
In fact, amanda Arch archibald,she said the best word, and it
was conviviality I like thatthere's this.
(18:41):
I love the word.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
So, yeah, each meal was this family getting together
and talking, discussing, evenfighting and yelling and getting
rid of energy and, and you know, like that sort of um I love
that it's a real interestingword, yeah I don't know if you
were the same, but remembergrowing up and like six o'clock
(19:05):
was dinner and you would sitaround the table and even if you
were arguing with your siblingsor whatever, you knew that six
o'clock was dinner and you wouldsit down around a table and
you'd maybe talk about your dayor whatever, or have an argument
with your sister or whatever,but still there was that
beautiful coming together andconnection around food, and I,
(19:25):
for me, food is so important andit's something to really
connect all of us, no matterwhat diet you just prescribe to
or anything like that.
I feel like just coming togetherand enjoying food is so, so
important for us as a societyand I feel like we've really
lost that because these days youlook at a table and even if
they're sitting down, there'ssomeone on a mobile phone, there
(19:47):
could be a computer opensomeone's TV.
We're kind of disconnected,don't you think?
Sometimes, in some places,Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We can go into the causes of that.
Started with TV maybe, but yeah, it's amazing, it's absolutely
amazing this disconnection.
And so to ask a question abouthow do you approach that
challenge with families.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah.
So what I try and do is, itdepends on, you know, whether
they've got young kids, likewith younger kids it's a bit
easier, I think, because youknow they do have that sort of
meal time, but with older kidsolder kids at school and things
like that they're kind of allover the place.
So what I say to them is oneday a week, why don't you just
(20:35):
cook a meal at home and then allhave it together if it's a
Friday night or a Thursday night, and just have that one day a
week where you're all together?
At least that's startingsomething, something good, I
think that.
So I just, yeah, that's how Ikind of talk to them about it
and they do enjoy it.
Yeah, I've had really goodfeedback on that.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, my wife, being the incredible human that she is
, very early on got our well sheis, she's amazing Very early on
, got our kids interested inpreparing meals and helping and
seeing how you you know thislovely salad doesn't make itself
(21:17):
.
There's a, there's a, a processyou have to go through to to do
this and you know you don'tmulch it up, you just it's a
light toss and you know whenyou're doing this, don't stir it
in so there was this realinterest and, um, both of my
sons have taken that and theyeat so healthily.
(21:38):
Now, they went through theirtime.
They did go through their time,but you know the sugar and the
milk and all that sort of thing,but both of them are, so
they're not, as you say, squeaky, but they're appreciative of
good, healthy food and theyenjoy.
It.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh, that's really good.
I think food culture there's alot to be said for food culture
and passing down beautifulthings, like your wife is, to
your children and hopefullythey'll then pass it down to
their children.
I think that if you've grown upin a food culture where it's
instant pasta with a can oftomato sauce that you pour over
(22:17):
the top, it's really hard tobreak the culture.
However, at any time when I dotalks about this, actually at
any time you can change yourfood culture.
You don't have to be stuck on.
You know how you grew up and Ithink that what your wife is
doing is just so beautiful and Ithink it's really yeah, it's
lovely, it's really lovely.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
But it's missing.
Like I remember podcasting withLisa Moan, who's a I'm going to
get it wrong a feedingspecialist, sos feeding
specialist, a feeding specialist, um, sos feeding specialist,
and she was making really goodpoints to me.
(23:00):
That topsy-turvied what Ithought we should be doing to
help kids get to the table.
Yeah, and it was rich oh, shewas so interesting because, well
, I would say things like um youknow, for instance, uh, don't
feed the pet at the table.
And she said, no, no, no, I'llhave arguments with parents
about this.
She said, if that's a way thatthe child will enjoy food, that
(23:22):
will normalise food.
I don't care if the dog eats it, if the child says I'm going to
feed them.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, to get the good , nutritious food into our child
that might have issues withtexture or might have neuro
atypical behaviors that you knowheightens their anxiety and
stops them eating healthy meals.
I don't care about so-calledthese.
You know manners that we grewup with.
I'm all for breaking.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And also kids need to have a diverse microbiome.
So if they're like touching thedog and then eating, I mean
it's not too bad.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
That's how we get the diverse microbiome.
Well, there's a beautiful segueto our next question Tell us
more.
Tell us more about themicrobiome.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So the way that I look at it is like an Amazonian
rainforest, if you can imagine.
You know the birds and thebutterflies and the flora and
fauna and all that sort of stuff.
And I think when I talk topeople about the microbiome,
just in simple terms, I liken itto this rainforest where you've
got to look after the soil,because it all kind of starts
with the soil, don't you think?
(24:33):
So I talk to them about thingslike colostrum, zinc, vitamin d,
vitamin c, things to reallybuild that healthy soil, and
then you've got the trees thatare your probiotics.
So you want to be eating a lotof probiotic rich foods, if you
can.
I know there's all differentstrains and the problem with
probiotics, as you know, is someof them only last minutes in
(24:54):
the gut, some last days, somelast months.
There's everyone's got aparticular different strain,
different strains of them in thebody.
So that's where prebiotics Ithink is so important.
That's where they come in tofeed the good bacteria in the
gut.
So I just say that the treesare, like you know, little
babies with their mouths open.
You have to constantly feedthem with great prebiotic rich
(25:15):
foods sweet potato, chicory,dandelion, asparagus, onions,
peas, those kinds of foods, andthen your ecosystem will be
thriving because it's workingwell, and then things will
flourish, the trees willflourish and it is an ecosystem
in there, and that's kind of howI personally look at it.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree.
I was speaking with somebodyelse earlier and um mentioning a
paper, one of my favoritepapers, one of my favorite
authors, catherine Lozapone, andshe talks about how, um, we, we
have, uh, our microbiota and we, we like to think of that as
garden, even though it's not aflora.
(26:00):
But, anyway, we think about thatas a garden, and what she was
talking about in one of thesepapers was about it's not just
one insult.
One insult is, like you know, agolf swing taking a divot out
of the, out of the golf, um,fairway right, um.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
but it's these multiple insults that keep
chipping away at your garden, atyour soil, and that's what
changes the grass yeah, and Ithink for me a lot of and in
with a lot of my clients, someof the things that really throw
that balance off are things likesmoking, alcohol, antibiotics,
a high sugar diet, processedfoods, inflammatory sort of
(26:41):
foods and things like that.
So they can really throw thatbalance off and, yeah, I kind of
talk to them about that and tryand encourage them to eat a
little bit more fresh if theycan, and maybe look at a few
recipes online if they like them, or in books, and then, yeah,
try and start that way.
Just very simply yeah, whatabout?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
we spoke earlier about probiotics, single versus,
uh, you know mixtures, yeah,prebiotics included.
Um, do you have a, a phasewhere you might say, okay, let's
start off with the prebioticfirst, and where you might say,
okay, let's start off with theprebiotic first and add the
probiotic, or let's start offwith the probiotic?
you also mentioned colostrum, sothere's, there's now this non
(27:27):
non milk, non-dairy serum yeah,immunoglobulin which I like I've
fallen in love with it'sactually saved me from and and
it was and it was a dodgy prawn.
It seriously was the dodgyprawn thing wow now I'm
interested now in this oh, thisis great, but anyway.
(27:49):
So do you have a a time periodwhere you'll start off on
something and move to somethingelse, like pre-bite?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
first, yeah, a lot of my clients, um, you know
they're on a certain budget andthey don't um, want to go
overboard with a lot ofmicrobiome mapping and doing all
the expensive tests and thingslike that.
So I do try and start with foodto start with and take out some
of the things that aredisrupting their gut.
So, kind of, at a first thingwe'll look at food, we'll try
(28:21):
and do it through food and thensee how they're going and things
like that.
And then I would look toprobably some kind of just low
level multi-strain probioticjust to see whether that's going
to help the engine workproperly and get going and
refuel them and give them energyand and create a microbiome
that's actually generatingenergy for the body, which is
(28:43):
what you want.
And then there are some immunesystem based probiotics that I
am really interested in.
I'm learning more about themand I think they are good,
because when you think aboutinflammation and the link
between the immune cells talkingto your microbiota, that is a
real conversation that ishappening there between the two
(29:04):
and I think for me I would lookat maybe some kind of
multi-strain and see how they go, but definitely along the way,
fiber and prebiotics and tryingto get it through food.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I would recommend that soluble versus insoluble
fiber need to need to cover thatone I think, a balance of
everything I think soluble andso insoluble.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I think resistant starch is also really important,
like cooked and cooled rice isa good form of resistant starch.
Banana flour I would be lookingat those as well like sort of a
balance balance, sort of amountof fiber, but something easy
that they can pick up from thesupermarket, like banana fiber,
banana flour you can buy in thesupermarket now, which is really
(29:49):
good.
Make some pancakes up.
I've got loads of recipes on mywebsite for all these kind of
foods, which is really good.
Um yeah, simple ways to getfiber, not not necessarily
taking a big fiber supplementthat your body will kind of
start to get used to and rely on.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Um, yeah, okay.
So weaning off stuff, fiber,for instance.
You know like, for instance,you know, in the old days, when
it was the only thing that wehad fructo-oligosaccharides made
from chicory, 40 percent ofyour patients got excessive wind
and went nah and ibs yeah, sohow do you, how do you introduce
(30:29):
patients to fiber?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
but you know particularly what you've spoken
about banana, and for me it'sagain always goes back to the
smoothie or the soup and so it'slike fiber rich veggies or
fiber rich fruit and veggies.
So when I make a smoothie, I'llput rocket in there, I'll put
carrot in there, I'll put um.
I also put sometimes likecoriander in there, and I put a
(30:52):
little flat leaf parsley inthere.
I do cucumber in there, I do.
Yeah, I try and kind of mix itup with something simple that
they can just throw into ablender.
That's how I kind of start andthen trying to have more fiber
at each meal if they can.
So fiber rich veg or maybe somealso like things like some
lentils if they can manage them.
(31:13):
A lot of people with gut issuesI've noticed lentils and and
things like that are quite hardfor them to digest, so we go
really slowly with that yeah,what about chickpeas?
chickpeas as well.
Sometimes bloating causebloating, a bit hard to digest,
but making them into a hummusand adding sometimes garlic as
(31:36):
well is a bit hard for people.
But if they've got thatmicrobiome which is unbalanced,
sometimes garlic is actuallyquite good for them.
So it's just finding a balancewith ingredients and I'll give
them some little recipes to tryand see how they go.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Do you ever find that adding things like turmeric
into your smoothie?
Helps to like.
Take that inflammatorycomponent that I'm going to be
wishy-washy and say upsettingcomponent out of sometimes those
gas-forming foods.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, I really do.
I really really do.
A lot of those Indian spicesare like that as well.
They're very farm-ad, farmative.
Ginger is also really good, soI'll throw ginger into a
smoothie.
Obviously, the curcumincomponent of the turmeric is the
potent ingredient that canreally help with inflammation.
There's so much research nowout there and I'm so happy about
all the research on turmeric.
(32:30):
I take turmeric myself, orcurcumin, every day, and I also
take fish oil, and I found thosetwo things are really great for
inflammation.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Personally, that was another one Fish.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Red Emperor, anyone, anyway.
So with regards to fish we'retalking mainly.
Fish is healthy.
Great.
There are some people who havegastroesophageal reflux disease
and fish sometimes upsets them,I agree.
There's a protein, I can'tremember.
What do you do in that sort ofinstance?
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, it's really hard for people with reflux,
especially with fish oil andfish oil capsules and
concentrated fish oil.
So if you're looking for thatanti-inflammatory component I
would give them.
I have this great flaxseedcracker recipe which I make, or
I'd give them something.
I'd get them to put flaxseed intheir smoothie and try and see
(33:33):
if they're okay with differenttypes of fish like whitefish or
salmon or things like that.
Maybe if they're okay with tunafor them, that could be helpful
for them as well sardines,those kinds of things.
So we just do it in stages.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Got it, and I also have a question about the
different forms of zinc.
It's like zinc karnnosine, forinstance.
Have you used this, yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
No, I haven't.
And zinc is normally when I'mspeaking to my patients, what I
try and do is because they aretrying to save money and they're
on a budget and things likethat.
I try and find if they've gotissues, I try and find a
supplement that will cut acrossa few different areas that they
need.
So magnesium, calcium, zinc,together with you know, maybe
(34:26):
something else with it as well,maybe turmeric, which is going
to kind of help them in a fewways.
That's what I do, but I don'tgenerally prescribe single
ingredient or single vitamins orminerals like that.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
And where can we learn more?
Leigh, you've got your bookright.
Yeah, I have my book.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Oh, my book is here.
This is my latest book.
I've got 11 books, but this isbook number 11.
Oh, my goodness, yeah, so it'scalled Nature's Way to Healing A
Long COVID Guide, because Icontracted long COVID after
getting COVID and this book isfor anyone that has post-viral
(35:09):
fatigue, chronic fatigue,post-viral issues, so it's a
really good one for that.
There's 30 recipes in there andthere's a protocol in there,
and I taught there's a protocolin there too.
So, and I worked with anaturopath on the book as well
and I've done a nutritionalcomponent of it and I've worked
with doctors from all over theworld on this book and
researched it.
So, yeah, that's it.
It's called nature's way tohealing along cover guide I love
(35:33):
your work, lee.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I love your practical approach to things about,
because our, our wholecivilization is based around
eating, around food we need torecapture healthy habits, rather
than the unhealthy habits thatwe see so often um so thank you
so much for taking us through.
How you know, having a joyfulexperience with food can impact
(35:57):
on our microbiota and thereforeour health.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Thank you so much for joining us on Wellness by
Design, my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
It's our pleasure to have you on board.
Remember, we'll put up all ofthe resources we've discussed in
today's podcast and there's theother podcasts on the Designs
for Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
Other podcasts on the Designsfor Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs andI'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is LeighHolmes, who's a clinical
nutritionist, a yoga teacher, awhole foods chef and an author.
Leigh also runs a four-weekonline program called Heal your
(00:38):
Gut.
Welcome to Wellness by Designs,leigh.
How are you?
I'm great.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's really good to be here.
Absolute pleasure to have youon the show Now, lee.
Firstly, I've got to thank youfor your time today.
I know you're very busy, butlet's go back into history.
What first got you interestedin gut health?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, I've always kind of been interested in
health.
But I was working at the ABC inSydney about 12 years ago and I
got really sick, sort of reallyquite rapidly Lost a lot of
weight.
My hair was falling out, I wascovered in hives, I kept on
going to work as you do I was aparent kept on pushing myself
till eventually I couldn'treally go on any further and I
(01:20):
went through the medical system,which I found to be really
quite complex because I feltlike I was being pushed from one
doctor to another with no realanswers to anything at all.
So then what happened was Ieventually was diagnosed with an
autoimmune disease which eightyears later was diagnosed as
Crohn's, and something calledfibromyalgia, which was, I felt,
(01:42):
really achy and stiff when Igot up.
So from there I was put on thisconcoction of different
prescription medications whichreally messed me and threw me
around a lot and I started toget really interested in gut
health.
Back then I said to them do youthink you know this has
anything to do with diet?
Because I noticed when I eatcertain things my symptoms
really flare up, especiallythings like MSG and a lot of the
(02:04):
preservatives in foods.
I was putting lean cuisine inthe microwave and, you know, for
lunch at work and it would justmake me feel really itchy and
tired after eating.
And they said, no, no, nothingto do with your gut whatsoever,
even though I have since beendiagnosed with Crohn's.
So I was sort of on that sort ofjourney of learning about
(02:25):
natural health and I reallyintrinsically thought it was my
gut.
So I went home after being inhospital at St Vincent's for a
little bit and started to cookreally simple foods, because I
just felt like I needed to justpare everything back and just go
back to simple eating and wholefoods and things like that.
And I did that and it reallyhelped a lot.
And I was using garlic insteadof a lot of the antibiotics I
(02:47):
was given and curcumin andturmeric and, as you know, even
my gastroenterologist isprescribing them to his patients
now, which is amazing.
So I started to look atdifferent food and food
ingredients and it really helpedme and I got so passionate
about gut health.
I went back to study.
For six years I studiedclinical nutrition and I did two
courses in clinical nutritionand then I started my blog,
(03:09):
supercharged Food, and yeah, Ikind of just went from there and
I really do feel like the gutis the epicenter to health and
that was kind of where I kneweverything was stemming from.
That's how I got into it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Lee, can I ask you because this has been something
of interest to me for some yearsyou mentioned pairing back the
foods for a certain time, sokeeping them simpler.
I've seen um, agastroenterologist, for instance
, uh, in the mid north coast ofnew south wales.
(03:43):
Uh, uh, putting his now I thinkit was ulcerative colitis
patients on.
Yeah, and, and this was amilk-based, uh protein, high
calorie, uh liquid, but it was.
It was only for a short periodof time.
(04:03):
Now, admittedly, it wasdairy-based and a lot of people
react to dairy.
I get it.
I get our preponderance to tryand avoid dairy, but I wonder if
all of these different types ofthings, even like the carnivore
diet for autoimmune disease,whatever sort of diet it is,
(04:24):
when they're paired back into asimple thing, is it that it's
oligoantigenic?
Is it that part of this restfor the gut is just saying can
you just leave me alone for abit and just give me one or two
things to think about, ratherthan 20 million?
yeah but then the job of healingbegins.
What take me through this?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
I I actually completely agree with that and
everything that you're saying.
I know for me personally and alot of my clients.
When you pare things back, Ithink less is more we can really
overwhelm our gut andespecially with taking things
and lots of different things andit's just the the system.
When it's when you, when youhave in a basis of inflammatory
(05:04):
issues or you have immunedysregulation, which obviously
you know the immune system, alot of it is kind of produced.
Your immune cells are producedin the gut.
When you think about that,pairing it back and going really
simple with food for medefinitely helped me so much.
And then trying to do thingsthat are cooked or or, um, like
(05:26):
smoothies, just something reallygentle on the digestion, so
you're not then digesting lotsof salads and nuts and really
harsh things.
I found for me that reallyhelped as well with things like
bloating and things like painafter eating and things like
that.
So I think just going back tobasics and very, a very simple
diet, even just for a littleperiod of time, allows the body
(05:47):
and the gut to sort of resetitself and calm down and really
calm down any inflammation andwhat have you for the Crohn's.
It really helped me a lot, andthen trying to eat more sort of
whole foods, if you can.
I found that that was reallyhelpful because I wasn't then
trying to process artificialsugars and all these other
things that kind of are quitedifficult for the body to
(06:08):
actually process.
So, yeah, I completely agreewith you.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, and so obviously, though, at some stage
you have to start reintroducingfoods, and you know we need to
think about healthy choicesrather than unhealthy choices.
So so how do you do that withpatients, particularly when
they've got bad habits thatthey've hopefully we'd love to
(06:34):
say they've left them behind,but their habits you know.
How do you prevent patients?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
from falling back into the same old rut.
Yeah, I think certainly, if yougive them too many things to do
, it's overwhelming for them.
So I try and change one thing aday.
So, whether it's getting up inthe morning and having a
smoothie with lots of differentlike fibre-rich veggies or some
fruit or some good fats,flaxseed, that kind of thing I
find that that kind of sets themup for the day, whereas if they
(07:03):
start going back to their oldhabits some flaxseed that kind
of thing I find that that kindof sets them up for the day,
Whereas if they start going backto their old habits and in the
morning especially, just eatingcereal with lots of sugar and
lots of dairy and what have youit kind of just they're like oh,
I feel terrible.
Anyway, I may as well just eatwhat I want.
So I try and just start withsimple things.
Simple things like just havinga smoothie, or maybe just
cooking meals ahead, or maybejust having a food prepared, or
(07:28):
just very, very simple things,and definitely nothing too much
for them.
I find that they just they'rebusy, everyone's busy and
working, and they have familiesand things like that.
So it is very difficult.
So, yeah, pairing it back,going back again to simplicity.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, I totally agree with you, like the.
I mean, we know from historicaldata that people who tried and
break a habit very often fallback into the same habit.
And I think you're right inthat.
People try and change the wholething, the whole thing in one
fell swoop, and then they getconfused and fall off the wagon.
(08:08):
So this gentle change, you know, and I think also a knowledge
of why they're changing thatthing a day or even every week,
whatever they're doing aboutokay, this is why I'm doing that
, that's why I'm doing this thenthat can give them the
reasoning for changing theirhabits to healthy habits.
(08:30):
Yeah, lee, can I ask you, can Iask you?
At the beginning you mentionedthe two diagnoses.
One of them was Crohn's and,forgive me, I missed the other
one.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Oh, fibromyalgia, which is sort of like feels like
arthritis.
So I was waking up in themorning so stiff I felt like a
99-year-old woman.
I was like, why am I so stiff?
And fibromyalgia is a reallyfunny one, because you can also
feel it when the weather changesor the barometric pressure
changes.
(09:02):
It's a really bizarre thing.
You feel stiff and you feelachy, a little bit like
arthritis.
So yeah, and you also you havegut issues with it too.
It was all kind of interrelatedand I feel that I've done a lot
of research on this and Crohn's, and you also have gut issues
with it too.
It was all kind of interrelatedand I feel that I've done a lot
of research on this and Crohn's, and it's almost like a
triangle where you have somekind of irritable bowel disease
(09:23):
and then you have fibromyalgiaon top of that and some kind of
inflammatory issue or a bladderissue as well.
It's like a triangle.
I've noticed with clients aswell.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, you were mentioning also, you know, being
a mother trying to push throughonce the symptoms appeared and,
of course, it just ran yourbody into the ground, this whole
stress response being one ofthe major drivers of
inflammation, certainly in the21st century.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, take us through that.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
How do you talk to your patients?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
yeah, um, I think that stress is.
There's research out there, asyou know, that stress can
actually strip the body of good,of good bacteria, so your
microbiome goes out of balance.
And when your microbiome goesout of balance and your gut's
out of whack, there are so manythings that happen.
Your sleep's affected, as youknow, your skin, you many things
that happen.
Your sleep's affected, as youknow, your skin.
You get skin disruptions, allof that sort of stuff.
(10:17):
So what I say to them is justto, yeah, again, just go back to
basics.
And I became a yoga andmeditation teacher when I was
kind of like learning nutritionand I found that Vedic
meditation, which is somethingthat I do for like 20 minutes a
day, was just a little thingthat I could do in the morning.
(10:37):
That really set me up for theday and really helped with any
kind of nervous systemdysregulation, because I feel
like nervous systemdysregulation and feeling wired,
a lot of people are stressedand anxious and wired.
If we can get to sort of thebottom of that, it's going to
help all of the other thingsthat happen.
So for me, it's like littlethings like breathing, doing
(11:00):
some deep breaths, a bit ofmeditation, also mindful eating.
So I do talk to my clients alot about mindful eating and
also you know when a lot of themare, you know, working, they
eat on on the run, they don'tsit down, they don't chew their
food properly, and then they'rebloated, they gassy afterwards
and they're like, oh, why am Iso?
Why have I got all thesesymptoms?
(11:22):
So sometimes it's just simplethings like that, like mindful
eating and paying a little bitmore attention to sitting down
and chewing better, and thatdefinitely those little things
actually do really helpdigestion as well, I've found.
And also the other thing isgoing for a little walk after
eating, which can help stimulatedigestion, and that's that
those little things have beenvery helpful for my clients and
(11:43):
they find them easier thanhaving a whole regime of things
to do, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
One of the interesting symptoms I've seen
in is they'll eat in asympathetically stimulated state
, but the feeling of bloatednessis not in the stomach area.
(12:10):
The feeling of bloatedness thatthey get immediately after a
meal is actually in their lowerabdomen.
Right, okay, that's a goodpoint and I find that, hmm, like
, are we talking aboutsympathetic, parasympathetic
nervous stimulation?
Are we talking about, like, animmediate effect on fermentation
?
Yeah, do we have an answerthere?
(12:33):
Do we have any?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
clues.
I don't know.
Is it to do with the smallintestine and um the b12 and
iron that you're kind of tryingto get from your food, and
because some, a lot of peoplelike with microns, it's actually
in the small intestine, so alot of people have issues there
and then you do get that likelower loading from that as well.
(12:57):
So it could be that, um, yeah,perhaps yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
So I remember going through this conundrum, going
okay, do I give her a digestiveenzyme because she's eating in
the paris in a sympatheticallystimulated state and talk about
stress and vagus nervestimulation and things like this
.
Or do I give her something forthe lower bowel like a uh, you
know, an anti-bloating type?
(13:21):
Uh, uh yeah what do we call it?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
a carminative, you know yeah, carminative yeah, um
yeah, that's a good point.
A lot of people just stage me.
I feel like I'm pregnant.
I'm six months pregnant.
My tummy's so distended.
They haven't really made thedistinction between the two.
So, yeah, that's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Do you ever favour, like always starting at the top,
or no, let's get things movingfirst and then we'll go back to
digestion later.
Do you ever favour one over theother?
You know what?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I feel like everyone is so different and when I see
that it's a stress-relatedresponse or a nervous system
dysregulation, I kind of workmore on getting them to try and
relax and have more calmativeapproaches to what they're
actually doing, rather thanimmediately jumping to things to
(14:17):
give them, like supplements andthings like that.
I try and work more on that, ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
What about, though, herbs thatsupport the nervous system
during times of stress?
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, I think a lot of people are now looking to
ashwagandha like a lot.
You know how a lot of peopletalk about that at the moment.
Um, I think that that's beenquite helpful for people.
Some people like if they'reconstipated and things like that
and have a nervous thingsometimes.
Magnesium is something that Ilook to for clients as well.
(14:54):
Also, when looking at the wholemicrobiome, I would look at like
a symbiotic type product with aprobiotic, prebiotic, digestive
enzyme and dietary fiber in one, because I feel like fiber is
very underrated when it comes togut health and you know a lot
of people have been on paleodiets as well and they're not
getting enough prebiotic richfibers.
(15:15):
They're going, oh, I can't eatthat sweet potato because I'm
paleo, but then they're allcoming to me with gut issues
going oh, I was on paleo and nowmy gut's not working properly
and they're not getting enoughprebiotic rich fibers.
So, yeah, I talk to them abouttheir diet a little bit.
We'll go through what they'reeating and make a few little
tweaks.
To start with, Do you know?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
one of the things about paleo that interested me
is that when I need to keep aperson's name out of this, out
(16:02):
of this, this person basicallyformulated the dietary
requirements for a symposium,and when I went out there
expecting to see meat upon meatupon meat upon meat, I was met
with salad upon salad upon saladupon salad and there's some
meat.
It was not the carnivore dietat all.
The paleo diet was largelyplant-based and I thought about
it and I thought hang on.
(16:23):
So while these neolithic humanswere chasing down the meat
prize, they had to eat along theway, and the things that were
along the way were berries andtubers, and things like that.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, I thought so.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Is it that we actually got what we thought
something was paleo diet?
Is it that we've just beendoing it wrong?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I think, like I don't subscribe to any particular
diets, like keto, paleo.
For me it's all about balance,whole foods, rainbow, eat the
rainbow, things like that wrongand right like.
For me it's like the angeldevil thing.
I think for a lot of my clientsas well, they have that
thinking and so it's very blackand white like they, they're
(17:10):
very much like them.
I can't eat this and it setsyou up for a bit of, you know,
eating disorder um territory.
When they're, they're kind ofgoing down that road.
So I basically try and makethings.
I don't try to subscribe to anydiets and say we're doing it
right or wrong sort of thing.
Does that make sense?
yeah, absolutely, and it's avery salient point about point
(17:35):
about you make about thelanguage that we use that can,
in a susceptible person, leadthem down an eating disorder
time, um sort of framework yeah,I agree, and things like
orthorexia, where I have someclients who they don't just eat
clean, they eat squeaky cleanand because of that they're
anxious about what they eat, andthen that anxiety sets them up
(17:56):
for more dysregulation and it'sjust a cycle I've found.
So, yeah, I try and just keepthings nice and gentle.
I'm a very gentle nutritionistand I just try and get them to
choose for themselves and thinka bit more for themselves, give
them the options and and thatkind of thing, but just say to
them you know, don't be toostrict on yourself, because
(18:17):
that's just who wants to livelike that.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Well, it's a good point.
You know Like it's somethingthat certain cultures really get
right.
You know the Mediterraneanculture, it's not just about the
food, it's about the socialinteraction.
In fact, amanda Arch archibald,she said the best word, and it
was conviviality I like thatthere's this.
(18:41):
I love the word.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
So, yeah, each meal was this family getting together
and talking, discussing, evenfighting and yelling and getting
rid of energy and, and you know, like that sort of um I love
that it's a real interestingword, yeah I don't know if you
were the same, but remembergrowing up and like six o'clock
(19:05):
was dinner and you would sitaround the table and even if you
were arguing with your siblingsor whatever, you knew that six
o'clock was dinner and you wouldsit down around a table and
you'd maybe talk about your dayor whatever, or have an argument
with your sister or whatever,but still there was that
beautiful coming together andconnection around food, and I,
(19:25):
for me, food is so important andit's something to really
connect all of us, no matterwhat diet you just prescribe to
or anything like that.
I feel like just coming togetherand enjoying food is so, so
important for us as a societyand I feel like we've really
lost that because these days youlook at a table and even if
they're sitting down, there'ssomeone on a mobile phone, there
(19:47):
could be a computer opensomeone's TV.
We're kind of disconnected,don't you think?
Sometimes, in some places,Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
We can go into the causes of that.
Started with TV maybe, but yeah, it's amazing, it's absolutely
amazing this disconnection.
And so to ask a question abouthow do you approach that
challenge with families.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah.
So what I try and do is, itdepends on, you know, whether
they've got young kids, likewith younger kids it's a bit
easier, I think, because youknow they do have that sort of
meal time, but with older kidsolder kids at school and things
like that they're kind of allover the place.
So what I say to them is oneday a week, why don't you just
(20:35):
cook a meal at home and then allhave it together if it's a
Friday night or a Thursday night, and just have that one day a
week where you're all together?
At least that's startingsomething, something good, I
think that.
So I just, yeah, that's how Ikind of talk to them about it
and they do enjoy it.
Yeah, I've had really goodfeedback on that.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, my wife, being the incredible human that she is
, very early on got our well sheis, she's amazing Very early on
, got our kids interested inpreparing meals and helping and
seeing how you you know thislovely salad doesn't make itself
(21:17):
.
There's a, there's a, a processyou have to go through to to do
this and you know you don'tmulch it up, you just it's a
light toss and you know whenyou're doing this, don't stir it
in so there was this realinterest and, um, both of my
sons have taken that and theyeat so healthily.
(21:38):
Now, they went through theirtime.
They did go through their time,but you know the sugar and the
milk and all that sort of thing,but both of them are, so
they're not, as you say, squeaky, but they're appreciative of
good, healthy food and theyenjoy.
It.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh, that's really good.
I think food culture there's alot to be said for food culture
and passing down beautifulthings, like your wife is, to
your children and hopefullythey'll then pass it down to
their children.
I think that if you've grown upin a food culture where it's
instant pasta with a can oftomato sauce that you pour over
(22:17):
the top, it's really hard tobreak the culture.
However, at any time when I dotalks about this, actually at
any time you can change yourfood culture.
You don't have to be stuck on.
You know how you grew up and Ithink that what your wife is
doing is just so beautiful and Ithink it's really yeah, it's
lovely, it's really lovely.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
But it's missing.
Like I remember podcasting withLisa Moan, who's a I'm going to
get it wrong a feedingspecialist, sos feeding
specialist, a feeding specialist, um, sos feeding specialist,
and she was making really goodpoints to me.
(23:00):
That topsy-turvied what Ithought we should be doing to
help kids get to the table.
Yeah, and it was rich oh, shewas so interesting because, well
, I would say things like um youknow, for instance, uh, don't
feed the pet at the table.
And she said, no, no, no, I'llhave arguments with parents
about this.
She said, if that's a way thatthe child will enjoy food, that
(23:22):
will normalise food.
I don't care if the dog eats it, if the child says I'm going to
feed them.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, to get the good , nutritious food into our child
that might have issues withtexture or might have neuro
atypical behaviors that you knowheightens their anxiety and
stops them eating healthy meals.
I don't care about so-calledthese.
You know manners that we grewup with.
I'm all for breaking.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And also kids need to have a diverse microbiome.
So if they're like touching thedog and then eating, I mean
it's not too bad.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
That's how we get the diverse microbiome.
Well, there's a beautiful segueto our next question Tell us
more.
Tell us more about themicrobiome.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So the way that I look at it is like an Amazonian
rainforest, if you can imagine.
You know the birds and thebutterflies and the flora and
fauna and all that sort of stuff.
And I think when I talk topeople about the microbiome,
just in simple terms, I liken itto this rainforest where you've
got to look after the soil,because it all kind of starts
with the soil, don't you think?
(24:33):
So I talk to them about thingslike colostrum, zinc, vitamin d,
vitamin c, things to reallybuild that healthy soil, and
then you've got the trees thatare your probiotics.
So you want to be eating a lotof probiotic rich foods, if you
can.
I know there's all differentstrains and the problem with
probiotics, as you know, is someof them only last minutes in
(24:54):
the gut, some last days, somelast months.
There's everyone's got aparticular different strain,
different strains of them in thebody.
So that's where prebiotics Ithink is so important.
That's where they come in tofeed the good bacteria in the
gut.
So I just say that the treesare, like you know, little
babies with their mouths open.
You have to constantly feedthem with great prebiotic rich
(25:15):
foods sweet potato, chicory,dandelion, asparagus, onions,
peas, those kinds of foods, andthen your ecosystem will be
thriving because it's workingwell, and then things will
flourish, the trees willflourish and it is an ecosystem
in there, and that's kind of howI personally look at it.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree.
I was speaking with somebodyelse earlier and um mentioning a
paper, one of my favoritepapers, one of my favorite
authors, catherine Lozapone, andshe talks about how, um, we, we
have, uh, our microbiota and we, we like to think of that as
garden, even though it's not aflora.
(26:00):
But, anyway, we think about thatas a garden, and what she was
talking about in one of thesepapers was about it's not just
one insult.
One insult is, like you know, agolf swing taking a divot out
of the, out of the golf, um,fairway right, um.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
but it's these multiple insults that keep
chipping away at your garden, atyour soil, and that's what
changes the grass yeah, and Ithink for me a lot of and in
with a lot of my clients, someof the things that really throw
that balance off are things likesmoking, alcohol, antibiotics,
a high sugar diet, processedfoods, inflammatory sort of
(26:41):
foods and things like that.
So they can really throw thatbalance off and, yeah, I kind of
talk to them about that and tryand encourage them to eat a
little bit more fresh if theycan, and maybe look at a few
recipes online if they like them, or in books, and then, yeah,
try and start that way.
Just very simply yeah, whatabout?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
we spoke earlier about probiotics, single versus,
uh, you know mixtures, yeah,prebiotics included.
Um, do you have a, a phasewhere you might say, okay, let's
start off with the prebioticfirst, and where you might say,
okay, let's start off with theprebiotic first and add the
probiotic, or let's start offwith the probiotic?
you also mentioned colostrum, sothere's, there's now this non
(27:27):
non milk, non-dairy serum yeah,immunoglobulin which I like I've
fallen in love with it'sactually saved me from and and
it was and it was a dodgy prawn.
It seriously was the dodgyprawn thing wow now I'm
interested now in this oh, thisis great, but anyway.
(27:49):
So do you have a a time periodwhere you'll start off on
something and move to somethingelse, like pre-bite?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
first, yeah, a lot of my clients, um, you know
they're on a certain budget andthey don't um, want to go
overboard with a lot ofmicrobiome mapping and doing all
the expensive tests and thingslike that.
So I do try and start with foodto start with and take out some
of the things that aredisrupting their gut.
So, kind of, at a first thingwe'll look at food, we'll try
(28:21):
and do it through food and thensee how they're going and things
like that.
And then I would look toprobably some kind of just low
level multi-strain probioticjust to see whether that's going
to help the engine workproperly and get going and
refuel them and give them energyand and create a microbiome
that's actually generatingenergy for the body, which is
(28:43):
what you want.
And then there are some immunesystem based probiotics that I
am really interested in.
I'm learning more about themand I think they are good,
because when you think aboutinflammation and the link
between the immune cells talkingto your microbiota, that is a
real conversation that ishappening there between the two
(29:04):
and I think for me I would lookat maybe some kind of
multi-strain and see how they go, but definitely along the way,
fiber and prebiotics and tryingto get it through food.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I would recommend that soluble versus insoluble
fiber need to need to cover thatone I think, a balance of
everything I think soluble andso insoluble.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I think resistant starch is also really important,
like cooked and cooled rice isa good form of resistant starch.
Banana flour I would be lookingat those as well like sort of a
balance balance, sort of amountof fiber, but something easy
that they can pick up from thesupermarket, like banana fiber,
banana flour you can buy in thesupermarket now, which is really
(29:49):
good.
Make some pancakes up.
I've got loads of recipes on mywebsite for all these kind of
foods, which is really good.
Um yeah, simple ways to getfiber, not not necessarily
taking a big fiber supplementthat your body will kind of
start to get used to and rely on.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Um, yeah, okay.
So weaning off stuff, fiber,for instance.
You know like, for instance,you know, in the old days, when
it was the only thing that wehad fructo-oligosaccharides made
from chicory, 40 percent ofyour patients got excessive wind
and went nah and ibs yeah, sohow do you, how do you introduce
(30:29):
patients to fiber?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
but you know particularly what you've spoken
about banana, and for me it'sagain always goes back to the
smoothie or the soup and so it'slike fiber rich veggies or
fiber rich fruit and veggies.
So when I make a smoothie, I'llput rocket in there, I'll put
carrot in there, I'll put um.
I also put sometimes likecoriander in there, and I put a
(30:52):
little flat leaf parsley inthere.
I do cucumber in there, I do.
Yeah, I try and kind of mix itup with something simple that
they can just throw into ablender.
That's how I kind of start andthen trying to have more fiber
at each meal if they can.
So fiber rich veg or maybe somealso like things like some
lentils if they can manage them.
(31:13):
A lot of people with gut issuesI've noticed lentils and and
things like that are quite hardfor them to digest, so we go
really slowly with that yeah,what about chickpeas?
chickpeas as well.
Sometimes bloating causebloating, a bit hard to digest,
but making them into a hummusand adding sometimes garlic as
(31:36):
well is a bit hard for people.
But if they've got thatmicrobiome which is unbalanced,
sometimes garlic is actuallyquite good for them.
So it's just finding a balancewith ingredients and I'll give
them some little recipes to tryand see how they go.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Do you ever find that adding things like turmeric
into your smoothie?
Helps to like.
Take that inflammatorycomponent that I'm going to be
wishy-washy and say upsettingcomponent out of sometimes those
gas-forming foods.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, I really do.
I really really do.
A lot of those Indian spicesare like that as well.
They're very farm-ad, farmative.
Ginger is also really good, soI'll throw ginger into a
smoothie.
Obviously, the curcumincomponent of the turmeric is the
potent ingredient that canreally help with inflammation.
There's so much research nowout there and I'm so happy about
all the research on turmeric.
(32:30):
I take turmeric myself, orcurcumin, every day, and I also
take fish oil, and I found thosetwo things are really great for
inflammation.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Personally, that was another one Fish.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Red Emperor, anyone, anyway.
So with regards to fish we'retalking mainly.
Fish is healthy.
Great.
There are some people who havegastroesophageal reflux disease
and fish sometimes upsets them,I agree.
There's a protein, I can'tremember.
What do you do in that sort ofinstance?
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, it's really hard for people with reflux,
especially with fish oil andfish oil capsules and
concentrated fish oil.
So if you're looking for thatanti-inflammatory component I
would give them.
I have this great flaxseedcracker recipe which I make, or
I'd give them something.
I'd get them to put flaxseed intheir smoothie and try and see
(33:33):
if they're okay with differenttypes of fish like whitefish or
salmon or things like that.
Maybe if they're okay with tunafor them, that could be helpful
for them as well sardines,those kinds of things.
So we just do it in stages.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Got it, and I also have a question about the
different forms of zinc.
It's like zinc karnnosine, forinstance.
Have you used this, yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
No, I haven't.
And zinc is normally when I'mspeaking to my patients, what I
try and do is because they aretrying to save money and they're
on a budget and things likethat.
I try and find if they've gotissues, I try and find a
supplement that will cut acrossa few different areas that they
need.
So magnesium, calcium, zinc,together with you know, maybe
(34:26):
something else with it as well,maybe turmeric, which is going
to kind of help them in a fewways.
That's what I do, but I don'tgenerally prescribe single
ingredient or single vitamins orminerals like that.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
And where can we learn more?
Leigh, you've got your bookright.
Yeah, I have my book.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Oh, my book is here.
This is my latest book.
I've got 11 books, but this isbook number 11.
Oh, my goodness, yeah, so it'scalled Nature's Way to Healing A
Long COVID Guide, because Icontracted long COVID after
getting COVID and this book isfor anyone that has post-viral
(35:09):
fatigue, chronic fatigue,post-viral issues, so it's a
really good one for that.
There's 30 recipes in there andthere's a protocol in there,
and I taught there's a protocolin there too.
So, and I worked with anaturopath on the book as well
and I've done a nutritionalcomponent of it and I've worked
with doctors from all over theworld on this book and
researched it.
So, yeah, that's it.
It's called nature's way tohealing along cover guide I love
(35:33):
your work, lee.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
I love your practical approach to things about,
because our, our wholecivilization is based around
eating, around food we need torecapture healthy habits, rather
than the unhealthy habits thatwe see so often um so thank you
so much for taking us through.
How you know, having a joyfulexperience with food can impact
(35:57):
on our microbiota and thereforeour health.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Thank you so much for joining us on Wellness by
Design, my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
It's our pleasure to have you on board.
Remember, we'll put up all ofthe resources we've discussed in
today's podcast and there's theother podcasts on the Designs
for Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
Other podcasts on the Designsfor Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
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