April 10, 2025 • 43 mins
Naturopath Anthia Koullouros explores the nervous system's critical role in healing and why repositioning from chronic stress into a regulated state creates the foundation for addressing persistent health issues.
Highlights from this episode:
• Understanding the four stress responses: fight, flight, freeze, and fawn
• How chronic stress directly prevents healing by prioritising survival mechanisms over repair
• Recognising when your nervous system is stuck in protective mode without your awareness
• The physiological impacts of stress responses on heart rate, breathing, digestion, and sleep
• Simple but effective first-aid techniques to create nervous system regulation
• Using nutritional support, adaptogens, and nervine herbs to create capacity for deeper healing
• The importance of meeting negative thoughts with curiosity rather than suppression
• Developing nervous system flexibility as the true marker of wellbeing
"When you love enough of something that you're taking care of, it'll love you back. When you pay it attention, it'll pay you attention back."
Connect with Anthia: Apotheca by Anthia
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DISCLAIMER: The Information provided in the Wellness by Designs podcast is for educational purposes only; the information presented is not intended to be used as medical advice; please seek the advice of a qualified healthcare professional if what you have heard here today raises questions or concerns relating to your health
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is AntheaKouralos, a naturopath,
(00:32):
homeopath and herbalist, andtoday we'll be speaking about
repositioning the nervous systemto heal.
Welcome to Wellness by Designs,anthea.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Very well, thank you, andrew.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is a fun topic to get towith you.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And so real in today's environment.
I've got to say and thank youso much for your time today.
I've got to say let's start off.
What do you mean?
What do we mean byrepositioning the nervous system
?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It means shifting from a state of chronic stress
and chronic stress and I knowwe're going to dive into this
the fight, flight, freeze andeven foreign response into a
more balanced, regulated nervoussystem, because it is in our
regulated nervous system that weheal.
So, quite simply, it's where wefind our most stable
(01:24):
foundations.
It's where our body willprioritize healing, digestion,
repair.
It's where we find ourselves inour most calmest state, our
most regulated state, becausewhen we're in a stress state, in
a non-regulated state, survivalis priority, it is not healing.
(01:48):
And so when we're healing, wewant to reposition the nervous
system to be in a non-reactive,regulated state, not just
survival mode.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I love what you say.
Like typically, we used toalways say fight, fright or
flight.
You've added two more things inthere, freeze, and what was
that?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
one fawn on, yes, like a deer.
So, yeah, in in fight, and mostpeople know fight or flight,
that's the part of the nervoussystem that acutely responds to
danger.
So it's positioning ourselvesto be able to quickly move, move
(02:32):
towards the stress or a threador move away in flight from that
stress.
And there's a lot of energy inthat state, lots of glucose,
oxygen and adrenaline to movereal quick in our um free state.
Different the free state feelslike it's more it's.
(02:55):
It is still a protectivemechanism in response to stress,
but it's where we feel a bitfrozen, dissociated.
It's an emergency state of thenervous system where we no
longer can fight or flight,where we go from an I can to an
I can't and we freeze, in asense, almost to hide, to
(03:19):
dissociate, to numb ourselves.
And fawn's a little bitdifferent and you've probably
seen people fawn.
I would say I'm an ex-fawner.
The people that people please.
They go into a submissivebehaviour as a means to deal
(03:39):
with a threat or a stress.
So it's quite, rather thanfighting or fleeing or freezing,
they'll, people please like,they'll give in, they'll comply.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Right, right, so forgive me.
So I was thinking about like afawn a baby deer would.
When the mother does a hiss Ithink it's a hiss they drop,
bang.
They just drop to the grass,bang.
That's this protectivemechanism to not be seen.
You're talking about somethingdifferent as into the
(04:11):
over-pleasing, the fawning oversomebody, sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Correct.
I think what you're talkingabout is that phrase.
Like a deer in headlights, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, got it Okay.
So that's an interesting one,that form thing that people
please as a, as a as a nervoussystem response yeah, to stress,
it's interesting how we can weall develop these different
maneuvers or mechanisms copingmechanisms, to stress.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
We either inherit these patterns, they've been
taught to us, we've seen them inaction, or we develop them from
a very, very young age as acoping mechanism.
We're very crafty human beings.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yes, but it's like I'm interested in where that
comes from, that pleasing sortof thing as a stress response
Very, very interesting.
Can you take us through, though, what happens to the nervous
system and body physiology whenwe come under chronic stress?
(05:18):
You were mentioning, you know,glucose and adrenaline in the
fright and the fight stages.
I get that Different indifferent stages.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
It is.
So in that fight or flightwe're activating the adrenals,
those stress hormones, so we canquickly move into action.
And what decreases is ourregulated state, our regulated
state.
When I say what decreases isour regulated state, our
regulated state, and when I saywhat decreases is digestion,
immunity, engagement, thatdecreases because that's not
(05:52):
necessary for survival In thatstress response.
The hypothalamus, pituitaryaccess will then release
cortisol to kind of maintainthat energy.
Over time we either produce toomuch or in the case of burnout
or adrenal exhaustion, there'snot enough.
And that's when we can testthat as practitioners In the
(06:14):
free state, when the statebecomes so overwhelmed and we've
been in fight flight for toolong, the free state, I think
think is this wonderfulemergency state of the nervous
system.
We shouldn't be there for toolong because it isn't healthy to
be there for too long.
Often people think freeze is acalm state, because it's just so
(06:35):
different to fight and flight,because you kind of feel a bit
numb to the actual stress ofwhat's happening.
So people often will say, ohyes, I'm in a calm state, but
they're actually in adissociated state.
In a, in a formed state, it'sstill activating, either a fight
flight or freeze response.
(06:57):
The difference with a regulatedstate of the nervous system is
that all blood flow shunts backto that digestive state, to that
rest and digest state.
It's the state where we feelreally calm and connected,
whereas fight, fight, freeze andform they're very protective
states.
Our regulated nervous system iscalled rest and digest.
(07:20):
It's also called socialengagement, where we feel so
safe and comfortable in our ownskin that we want to connect
socially with everyone.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So, anthea, can I ask with regards to adrenaline and
the adrenal glands being engagedin a stress response, whether
that be acute or chronic?
There's the term that has beencoined about adrenal burnout or
(07:53):
adrenal fatigue.
Does it happen in the adrenalsor are we really talking about
brain changes because of astressful response?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think it happens everywhere.
It's because of the nervoussystem's web and its connection
to every single body, organ andsystem.
So in the fight-flight responseit's like we always feel things
within our body, our senses.
So vision, taste, smell,hearing will sense or surveil
(08:24):
the scene.
We call that enteroception.
There is also interoception,where we're sensing our internal
world as well as our externalworld.
That feedback then comes backto the nervous system which then
activates the adrenals.
So it's all parts.
(08:45):
Because look what happens to ourheart rate in fight flight.
It speeds up.
In an exhausted or a freezenumbed out state heart rate
reduces.
In a fight flight breathingactivates and speeds up.
In a more freeze response oradrenally exhausted state the
(09:06):
breathing can slow down.
We will feel sensations ofnumbness in a freeze state,
whereas in a fight flight sensesbecome so heightened we can
acutely hear danger, smell,danger, feel danger in that
freeze adrenal exhausted.
When we're burnt through it all, when we go from that I can to
(09:28):
I can't, we don't sense anything.
Everything's quite dull andflat.
So we say it's a whole bodyexperience in fact, starting off
with our senses internal world,external world tying this in
with assessments that we can use, like the cortisol awakening
(09:48):
response to say the car right.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So we talk about people that have a high morning
and then they drop.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right, rather than coming down gracefully, let's
say, during the day withcortisol, then you get other
people that are flat.
Even if it's flat higher, it'sflat without the day with
cortisol.
Then you get other people thatare flat.
Even even if it's flat higher,it's flat without the variation
yes is, is the issue thatthere's no variation, then it's
not the level per se yeah, Ithink so.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I mean often when I see those kind of results in a,
in a person who's verydissociated, they're a free
state when they're exhausted,usually they have such low
cortisol it's really flat, itdoesn't peak at all.
The ones that are in this fightflight in this acute stress.
(10:39):
Their cortisol readings just goup and they'll stay up
throughout the whole day rightand it depends on the chronicity
as well.
It's really interesting to me.
So some people's results, theymight be just elevated but they
still follow the pattern andit's what they do to self-manage
it's.
It is interesting.
(10:59):
It's not a a regular thing thatyou.
It really all depends onpeople's starting points, how
long they've been stressed for,how they cope and manage with
that stress as well, and thatwill be reflected in those
results and also what melatoninis doing at the other end.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Ah well, let's talk about sleep then.
Yes, other end ah well, let'stalk about sleep then.
You know, you get again yourtwo responses to sleep.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Some people go somnolent and other people can't
get to sleep.
I think in the acute fight andflight people tend to have
trouble sleeping in the freezeresponse.
They're just so exhausted theycan sleep anywhere.
They're good at even usingsleep as a means of dissociating
.
Or they're just exhausted andthey're tired.
Many of my patients don't evenrealize they're in a stress
(11:54):
state.
It's a really interesting thing.
They're so used to it.
They're so used to operatingthat way that they don't realize
they're stressed until I makethem aware that they're acting
in an acute stressed out stateor that they've been in a
chronic ongoing state.
So it's not until that theybecome aware that that the way
(12:21):
they're living life or coping isactually not where they need to
be.
It's not conducive to healing,it's not conducive to living
because they're just in survival.
But they're so used to that wayof being.
I ask them sometimes I'll showthem a diagram of the regulated
state and they go.
I can't remember the last timeI was there.
I I operate from fight flightand if I want to dissociate or
(12:46):
break from that, I go intofreeze where I just numb out.
And people are so clever.
They social media scroll, theytake drugs, they eat.
They do all these behaviors todissociate, but their nervous
system will do it for themanyway when it becomes too much.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Can we investigate that?
How do you take a patientthrough what they should be
feeling and assess where they'reat?
How do you enlighten them as towhere they should be?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's a really good question.
I make them aware of theirnervous system responses.
So we take them through.
You know how they're feeling,what are they thinking, how they
cope with stress at any givenmoment.
So I make them aware of theirnervous system's response.
I usually show them thepolyvagal diagram, the Dr
(13:41):
Stephen Porges diagram, so theycan see where they're positioned
in that diagram, that 3Tdiagram.
I get them really up close andpersonal to the words that they
use and I know this is somethingthat you're really keen to talk
about as well which is thoseinternal stresses, that negative
(14:04):
self-talk that people have andhow we meet that part of
themselves, because that onlyperpetuates the stress that
doesn't position ourselves toheal.
And that's what I talk about.
Repositioning your nervoussystem is just, it's the
physical expression, but it'salso the mental, emotional
(14:26):
expressions of stress and wekind of find those words, the
symptoms, the story around thewords and the symptoms and walk
through that door and get toknow their nervous system's
response.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
This would be quite confronting for some people,
wouldn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
It is and it's also so.
It's revealing, confronting.
And so it's such great relieffor someone to actually meet
their emotions and feelings,because often patients will come
in and say I don't want to feelthis way anymore, I'm so sick
and tired, or I'm so sick ofthis, whatever it might be that
(15:15):
they're doing or managing.
So to have someone say this isa coping mechanism, you're
trying to survive a stress.
And what is stress?
Stress can be anything frominflammation, infection, pain,
but it can be emotional, it canbe environmental, too many
(15:37):
chemicals or smells, it could beglobal affairs, it could be
financial.
It could be global affairs, itcould be financial, it could be
relationship.
The body accumulates all thestresses and activates our
nervous system to fight, flight,freeze, fawn.
However, we cope all of theabove.
Some of them we do more thanothers, and so it is confronting
(16:00):
and so it is confronting.
But when you explain about thephysiological expression of
stress, then the people thenwill say well, no wonder I've
got gut issues, no wonder I'vegot high blood pressure, no
wonder I can't sleep at night,no wonder I feel numb and I
(16:22):
can't sense or feel something.
And so the big thing is tovalidate this.
These are coping mechanisms.
They're not bad.
This is what you've developedand what you've evolved into
coping.
These are your strategies.
However they've come about,what we need to do is understand
(16:44):
the strategy, the parts of youthat are acting this way, the
patterns that have evolved thisway that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I, I can.
I'm just in my mind.
I'm going through so manydifferent conditions from people
just feeling stressed from high, high pressure sorry workers in
high-pressure jobs from, youknow, emotional trauma, the
whole gamut like, oh man, thisis taxing to you, who looks
after you?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
If I don't do my deep work then I can't meet with
people.
But these are the deep-rootedunderlying causes and
contributing factors.
That's why repositioning thenervous system to be in a
position to heal or do we juststay in survival mode, I think
is one of the most importantunderlying areas when we're
looking at holistically healinga patient is the coping
(17:40):
mechanisms tell us a lot.
The coping mechanisms tell us alot.
They may be the underlyingcause or they may be just the
contributing factor.
They create the scene, thescenario, they contribute to
what's happening.
But chances are if someone's gotchronic, ongoing, persistent
symptoms, chronic disease, thereis an element of the nervous
(18:07):
system, of course, always thatis being activated in a
particular way to survivesomething.
So it's hard not to address thenervous system.
That's why it's such animportant factor is when I look
at people, I look at theirnervous system.
I look at whether they'relooking at me, whether they're
fawning.
Look at their nervous system.
I look at whether they'relooking at me, whether they're
fawning, whether they're peoplepleasing me, whether they're
acting in a frightened statesitting opposite me, whether
(18:30):
they're shut down.
They're not actually there.
They're in the clinic oppositeme but they're not really
present.
So I'm assessing how they look,how they feel.
My nervous system is sensingtheir nervous system.
I'm also assessing if they'vegot negative self-talk and that
tells me a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Let's dive into this one.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, we have a lot of negative self-talk.
Doesn't that beget more stress?
Like stress begets stress?
Negative self-talk begetsnegative self-talk.
It keeps us in this perpetualstraight state of stress.
Now, I'm not saying bypass itwith positive self-talk, because
that's bypassing how weactually feel.
(19:15):
But if I hear a part of aperson's voice that is critical,
negative, I hate this.
I don't want to feel like this.
I take that one little piece andI think, well, that part of you
that sounds so negative, thatis criticizing, that is
(19:39):
critiquing what is happening,that part of you is just another
coping mechanism.
It's a part of you that wantsto not feel scared anymore.
It's a part of you that wantsto feel relaxed.
It's a part of you that wantsto feel comfortable.
It's a part of you that wantsto feel safe.
It's acting in a not very nicemanner, but it's actually a part
(20:02):
of you that needs attention andneeds to be met.
So why don't we do that?
Rather than what we resistpersists, let's meet that part
of you, and this is the work ofDr Richard Schwartz Parts Theory
, Internal Family Systems wherewe validate and honour, not
(20:23):
reject or suppress or bypass anyfeeling or symptom.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I'm so with you there .
This whole thing about you know, fake it till you make it the
positive talk when you'refeeling down and things like
that doesn't address anything.
Might be great as a short-termrescue, possibly, but it doesn't
uproot the weed that'sfestering and causing the issues
.
I'm so glad you say that.
(20:52):
But I also look for functionsof things, even though they
might seem bad, even though wemight judge them as not not
being, um, desirable.
So, for instance, you speakabout survival mode and then
we're talking about negativeself-talk.
(21:12):
But that negative self-talkdoes it not have?
Let's go back from evolution,right that?
Ah, you know, keep away yourdopey day of don't do that again
, you don't?
Is that not protecting us fromtouching the hot stove twice,
reaching out for the snake thatwould bite us in the long grass
(21:33):
when we were cavemen and women?
Um, it does.
So the function of that ohsorry, there is a function to
that, but it's just overridingis that what's going on?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
no, see that's.
I see that as a function, I seethat as um acting accordingly.
I don't see that as negativeself-talk.
I think that's informing and Ithink that's great.
It is what it think, that'sgreat, it is what it is.
That's informing it's when we'refestering, it's when we're
having this dialogue withinourselves with our symptoms,
(22:10):
with our disease.
That keeps us in this perpetualstress state that we're not
actually looking at thesesymptoms and disease states and
stressed out feelings as reallya story that needs to be met, as
something that is popping upover and over again, a part of
ourselves that needs attention,a pattern that is well grooved
(22:34):
into our nervous system, that isrequiring some curious, kind,
compassionate attention.
And that's what we're meant todo as practitioners.
We're exploring what you'rethinking, how you're feeling,
how you present your symptoms,how you cope with your symptoms,
because that is the path tounpacking the underlying causes
(22:59):
and contributing factors, yourcoping strategies, your coping
mechanisms.
And yes, it sounds like youknow we're delving into
psychology, but we'renaturopaths and we're holistic
practitioners and so we'relooking at mind, body, spirit,
soul, environment, upbringing,culture, a whole kin and kibbutz
(23:28):
is how does one presentthemselves?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
well, it's all important, totally agree.
So how do we change this though?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
so rather than bypassing, so ignoring, wishing
it didn't exist, whatever the,the feeling, the stress response
, the inner critic, the negativeself-talk is, we bring
ourselves into somewhat of aspace.
That is curious.
That's hard when you're in afight-flight response.
(23:55):
So that's where we think ofwhat do we do for acute stress
then, just so we've got somecapacity, just so we've got some
space, before we look at theunderlying causes.
So in an acute stressed-outstate, someone might be
hyper-energised or have noenergy, especially if it's
chronic stress.
And so to create some capacity,maybe first-day treatment is we
(24:20):
find ways to create energy, wefind ways to calm energy and
stress.
So, whether it's supplements,breathing techniques,
mindfulness, herbal medicines,there is, there is these
different tools that we can usethat positions a person in a
place to have a little bit ofspace, more clarity if they've
(24:44):
got brain fog, more energy ifthey've got no energy, more
regulation if they'rehyperactive, just to then be
able to then get into that realmof.
Why am I feeling this?
Why do I keep having thesesymptoms?
Why do I keep responding inthis way?
Why does my outside worldalways look quite negative or
disastrous?
Sometimes we just need thatfirst aid until we can really
(25:07):
position the nervous system.
We need some first aid reliefyeah and that's what beautiful
tools of naturopathy exist yeah,so let's go into this.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I mean, one of my first sort of go-tos for what
we're talking about here wouldbe I mean, obviously diet is the
foundation.
So let's start with diet, let'sstart there yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So I think, if you know, if someone is seeing a
psychologist or apsychotherapist or even if
you're seeing any practitioner,is to get off the highs and lows
of stuff that you're doing tocope, because either you're
going to be diagnosed with ADHDor you're going to be diagnosed
(25:52):
with having some type of brainfog, and sometimes diet will
impact that greatly.
So if you're really addicted tosugar, do anything that you can
.
Obviously there's a component.
The addiction for sugar meansyou're trying to bomb something
or distract from something oryou're trying to find energy.
But if you're high as a kite oncaffeine and sugar and drugs
(26:14):
and those kinds of things andstimulating foods or soft drinks
or colors, whatever it might be, I think that's one of those
things that you do.
It wouldn't be the first thing,but it is a really important
foundation when we're looking atrepositioning the nervous
system.
So we're not responding in afight, flight, freeze or foreign
state.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
We can respond in a more regulated state and I have
to ask, you know, habits arehard to break.
When somebody's stressed,they're very resistant to change
.
So you know, take us throughthe journey of how you approach
this with patients yeah, so itis.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Isn't it tricky that?
Because it's the stress that'screating, contributing to the
addiction, and then theaddiction we employ to help us
cope with the stress.
So how do you break that cycle?
Is first, the awareness thatthat is what is happening and in
those given moments, what canwe do?
Do we need to like?
(27:14):
There's very, very acute thingsthat one can do to, you know,
calm the nervous system.
Splashing cold water on yourface, a cold compress, I know
it's so simple.
It could be shaking out ordancing out the adrenaline, that
excess adrenaline, instead ofjust saying go and sit in your
room or go and sit in the corner.
(27:35):
If we're in this activatedacute stress response, we need
to exercise, we need to completethat stress cycle and get rid
of all that excess adrenalinecould be.
Just, you know, if we've kindof left the room and we're
wanting to ground ourselves, itcould be.
I do a cute little techniquefive Around senses identify five
(27:57):
things that you see, fourthings that you feel, three
things that you smell, twothings you hear.
One thing you taste, it'swhatever activity.
So often I ask patients what isit that you do that helps you
get grounded?
Patients know there's stuffthat they do, that does, and if
(28:20):
they don't, then we give themthese exercises Again.
It's this acute stuff, theacute stress relief, that just
regulates, even for a shortperiod of time, so they don't
jump to the sugar, so they don'tjump to more caffeine, just to
widen that space from reactionto a response.
(28:43):
It's tricky, but it's so doable.
You're looking at itholistically, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Do you know?
You remind me what you'retalking about there reminds me
of a lady I interviewed someyears ago, megan Sheel, about
dialectical behaviour therapyInstead of CBT, this is DBT, and
she was talking about evenviolent offenders, domestic
violence and things like that,and she'd get them to splash
(29:15):
water onto their face to wakethem up.
But I love, I love what you'vesaid about five, four, three,
two, one.
That's brilliant, because fivethings you can go emergency.
What's my five things?
What's my four things?
Okay, what's it?
And it takes that time.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, so that you've got yeah that's really
interesting.
And it just brings some peoplemeditate.
Some people can meditate, somepeople do a deeper exhalation,
some people have mantras.
So sometimes you work with whata patient already does.
And if they don't do anythingand their coping strategy is
(29:54):
just sugar and caffeine, well,we kind of do some healthy swaps
, from coffee to maybe green tea.
And I talk about l-theanine.
We're not going to give it as asupplement.
It might be start takingmagnesium, it's.
It's a bunch of things.
It's so individual and it's sobespoke, so very prescriptive
(30:16):
what works for each individualperson.
But I think the goal is thiscreate some space, give them the
first aid.
If they've got brain fog, helpthem with clarity.
They've got no energy, givethem energy.
We're not really addressing theunderlying causes at that point
.
It's just creating somecapacity so they become aware
(30:38):
that their nervous system iswhat, and repositioning those
nervous system is what isactually going to put them into
that healing realm.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And other nutrients like, say, fish oils, for
instance, to help to feed theneurons in the brain.
What about things likephosphatidylserine?
Do you ever use that?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, all of those things I mean.
It depends.
Sometimes, as we know know,patients already come in with a
cocktail of things.
They're either not taking goodquality things, they're not
taking the right dose, butsimple things, and again, I
might not even have time to do ablood test because someone is
such in a state where I can'tgive them a list of 10 things to
(31:19):
do or even go and get a bloodtest because they don't have
capacity for it.
So we need to get them to feelbetter quickly.
So that's where I might givethem some activated bees
magnesium, zinc, c, l-theanineit might be those supplements
and then herbally it might bethings like and again, are they
on any prescriptive medication?
(31:39):
So we're not looking doing anydrug interactions, um,
ashwagandha or withania, itmight be saffron, it might be
all my herbal adaptogens andnervous system or nervine herbs
that I love california poppy andpassion.
If someone's not sleeping,let's help them sleep, because
(32:00):
then that creates again capacitypositioning of the nervous
system.
So we're moving from a reactivestate to a more responsive
state and that positioning isthen healing.
Often people think, oh, I feelbetter now.
But that's not.
We haven't addressed yourunderlying causes and
contributing factors.
We've just put you in the realmof healing.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
What about different things in the acute stage versus
the chronic stage, like forinstance licorice employed, you
know, when somebody's reallydepleted but not necessarily
favourable?
Am I correct in this in theacute stage?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, I mean, I like using licorice in both states, I
think, like the ginsengs I usefor those chronic, chronic
stresses, the medicinalmushrooms and astragalus and
things like this.
Um, yeah, it just depends againhow they present.
Are they in the fight flight,where they're so highly wired
they present?
Are they in the fight-flightwhere they're so highly wired
and not sleeping?
(33:02):
Are they in the freeze, brainfog, numb state where I need to
activate them?
So that's when we use different.
See the different stages and thedifferent reactions to stress.
Do we need activation?
Do we need to liven them,awaken them?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And what about toxicants, things like that?
So you know the heavy metals,for instance, persistent organic
pollutants, persistentorganochlorine pollutants.
How do you address this?
I mean, that's a heck of a lotof testing.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So we do that second or I, might you know, just do a
whole bunch of tests that Isuspect, through a really
thorough consultation, we think,oh, they've been exposed to
environmental toxins, they'vebeen exposed to mould.
It takes four weeks to getresults back.
It's what we do in that meantime.
I'm not going to just wait forresults.
What are you doing the meantime?
(34:01):
So when the results come in,that it can creating a stress in
the nervous system, can I dosome first aid to create some
capacity, some clarity, someenergy or some regulation if
they're hyperactive, so we wecan look at the results, so we
can implement a protocol.
So again, it's that positioningof the nervous system in any
(34:25):
which way possible to createcapacity to implement a protocol
.
Some people can only do thewhatever we do to make them feel
better immediately.
Some people we unpack enoughthat we think you know it's time
to see a psychotherapist or apsychologist now to do that
deeper work.
I can get them to the door, butthey need to see their
(34:47):
therapist to do the deeper work.
I get them to the door ofhaving enough capacity mentally,
physically, emotional to do thedeeper work, whether it is with
the naturopath and thepsychologist or psychotherapist,
but it's that first aid,positioning the nervous system,
creating energy, regulatingenergy, creating capacity,
(35:11):
clarity just a quick questionabout polyvagal therapy that you
spoke of earlier.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Do you get people to engage in like singing and
gargling and the what is it?
The external conker of the ear,sorry, pinna of the ear, um,
where they stimulate that to tohelp with stimulation of the
vagal nerve?
Do you do that?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
all of the above, yes , Right, Because they're the
most simplest exercises to tonethe vagus nerve.
But again, it's that once youbecome aware of I'm operating in
a fight-flight or a freezeresponse or a fawn response,
once people become aware oftheir nervous system positioning
(35:58):
, then we can then start havingthose conversations about
polyvagal the vagus nerve,fostering more parasympathetic
nervous system activity, movingfrom that sympathetic nervous
system state to that moreregulated state.
And these are all the differenttechniques.
There are so many techniques touse, which is the good news.
(36:21):
There are techniques that wecan offer to a patient and say
pick the thing that you relateto, the thing that makes you
feel most comfortable, Do thething that makes you feel like
you're regulating your nervoussystem repositioning your nerves
.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, do you know what I was very recently shown?
Just a very simple meditationtrick, if you like, and it's
more physical than mindful andit's a very short breathing
exercise.
That's all Something that youcould do before you pull up to a
(36:58):
meeting in a car, somethingthat you could do just outside
your boss's office, somethingthat you could do before you
pull up to a meeting in a car,something that you could do just
outside your boss's office,something that you could do just
outside your walk in the door.
Like there's a two-minute thing, it doesn't have to be this,
you know an hour-long meditationin a yoga position and things
like that.
I was very impressed with whoshowed me this Can you show us
(37:19):
now.
Oh, can you want me to show you?
So it is simply closing youreyes and taking a long, deep
breath in through your nose andthen exhaling through your mouth
(37:42):
and then completing, crunchingover so you push more air out
and then a big breath in Perfect, that's it.
That's it, you know, and withinthere is a pause in breathing.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
But this was actually taught to me by a dear friend
of mine just recently and I waslike wow, like that's something
that anybody can do in the carfor less than two minutes and
that's why we need these, liketechniques that you know,
because in those stages ofbecoming aware of our nervous
(38:30):
system, responses to stress,some people say, oh, now that I
know and I do this, is that itit's like no, because it's taken
you years to react in this way.
It's like via neuroscience.
And the wonder of neuroscienceis that we can wire in a new
response, a different way thatit's understanding.
(38:53):
It's getting to the roots ofwhy are we reacting that way?
Why are we fawning?
Why are we freezing?
Why are we fleeing?
Why are we reacting that way?
Why are we fawning?
Why are we freezing?
Why are we fleeing?
Why are we fighting?
And so these little techniquesare just so we can really feel
into what regulation means.
What does regulation feelwithin our nervous system?
Because that's ultimately wherewe want to be when we're
(39:17):
looking at healing.
Now, the goal isn't to alwaysbe in a regulated state, and
some patients will say what doyou mean?
Because we're not immune todanger, we're not immune to
stress.
We want to be able to have agreat active, fight, flight,
freeze response, but we alsowant to be able to regulate, not
just stay trapped in thesedifferent spaces.
(39:39):
Regulate, not just stay trappedin these different spaces.
So really the mark ofwell-being is being able to move
between the different states ofyour nervous system adaptation.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, I love your work.
It's brilliant.
Why don't we all do it?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I know I suppose you know what, andrew that people
don't expect it from yournaturopath.
But I think how this is, how dowe address any chronic,
persistent symptom and somehowseparate the nervous system and
stress when we know that isreally what's driving?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
all of it it's just what's.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
It's the why behind the why fight, flight and freeze
.
It's the why it's, and it'susually some type of trauma or
cumulative stress, or taughtpatterns or inherited three
generations the mark of the workof mark wolen.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
It didn't start with you, I have to ask one last
question what advice do you havefor people who want to find
equilibrium with their nervoussystem while navigating the
demands of modern life?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
So, andrew, that is an excellent question.
So you know, being apractitioner for as long as I
have been, the patients that getthe greatest healing response
are the ones that create timeand space to better understand
how their body works.
So, just as we tell them,understand how your digestive
system works if you've gotchronic constipation, how you
(41:16):
digest, absorb your gutmicrobiome.
Constipation, how you digest,absorb your gut microbiome do
the same with your nervoussystem.
Befriend the nervous system.
Understand at any given momentwhere you are in your nervous
system.
Are you reacting from a fightresponse, a flight response?
Are you in a freeze response?
Are you a perpetual fauna?
(41:38):
What is your coping mechanism?
When you understand how yournervous system works, then we
can work with it.
And we always say love what itis that you're looking at.
So when you love enough ofsomething that you're taking
care of, it'll love you back.
(41:59):
When you pay it enoughattention, it'll pay you
attention back.
So follow the love.
Love the thing that you'reworking on.
It will love you back.
Pay attention to the thing thatneeds paying attention to and
it will pay attention back atyou.
Meet the parts that are unmet.
Get to know the parts that areunmet.
(42:20):
Get to know the parts thatrequire attention, because
aren't they what symptoms areand what stress reactions are?
They're a cry for help.
It's look at me.
You're not paying any attentionto me.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Meet me anthea, I've learned so much from this
podcast.
So salient advice, fantastic.
Thank you so much for taking usthrough how you operate, how
you help people to not justnavigate but to, as you say, to
follow the love to their nervoussystem and to help them to to
(42:55):
reengage with life and withothers.
Thank you so much for taking usthrough this very important
topic today on Wellness byDesigns.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Thank you, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
We will put as much informationas we can about this crucial
topic up on the podcast notesand, of course, you can catch up
on all of the other podcastepisodes on the Designs for
Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
Music.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs,and I'm your host, andrew
Whitfield-Cook.
Joining us today is AntheaKouralos, a naturopath,
(00:32):
homeopath and herbalist, andtoday we'll be speaking about
repositioning the nervous systemto heal.
Welcome to Wellness by Designs,anthea.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Very well, thank you, andrew.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is a fun topic to get towith you.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And so real in today's environment.
I've got to say and thank youso much for your time today.
I've got to say let's start off.
What do you mean?
What do we mean byrepositioning the nervous system
?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It means shifting from a state of chronic stress
and chronic stress and I knowwe're going to dive into this
the fight, flight, freeze andeven foreign response into a
more balanced, regulated nervoussystem, because it is in our
regulated nervous system that weheal.
So, quite simply, it's where wefind our most stable
(01:24):
foundations.
It's where our body willprioritize healing, digestion,
repair.
It's where we find ourselves inour most calmest state, our
most regulated state, becausewhen we're in a stress state, in
a non-regulated state, survivalis priority, it is not healing.
(01:48):
And so when we're healing, wewant to reposition the nervous
system to be in a non-reactive,regulated state, not just
survival mode.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I love what you say.
Like typically, we used toalways say fight, fright or
flight.
You've added two more things inthere, freeze, and what was
that?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
one fawn on, yes, like a deer.
So, yeah, in in fight, and mostpeople know fight or flight,
that's the part of the nervoussystem that acutely responds to
danger.
So it's positioning ourselvesto be able to quickly move, move
(02:32):
towards the stress or a threador move away in flight from that
stress.
And there's a lot of energy inthat state, lots of glucose,
oxygen and adrenaline to movereal quick in our um free state.
Different the free state feelslike it's more it's.
(02:55):
It is still a protectivemechanism in response to stress,
but it's where we feel a bitfrozen, dissociated.
It's an emergency state of thenervous system where we no
longer can fight or flight,where we go from an I can to an
I can't and we freeze, in asense, almost to hide, to
(03:19):
dissociate, to numb ourselves.
And fawn's a little bitdifferent and you've probably
seen people fawn.
I would say I'm an ex-fawner.
The people that people please.
They go into a submissivebehaviour as a means to deal
(03:39):
with a threat or a stress.
So it's quite, rather thanfighting or fleeing or freezing,
they'll, people please like,they'll give in, they'll comply.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Right, right, so forgive me.
So I was thinking about like afawn a baby deer would.
When the mother does a hiss Ithink it's a hiss they drop,
bang.
They just drop to the grass,bang.
That's this protectivemechanism to not be seen.
You're talking about somethingdifferent as into the
(04:11):
over-pleasing, the fawning oversomebody, sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Correct.
I think what you're talkingabout is that phrase.
Like a deer in headlights, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, got it Okay.
So that's an interesting one,that form thing that people
please as a, as a as a nervoussystem response yeah, to stress,
it's interesting how we can weall develop these different
maneuvers or mechanisms copingmechanisms, to stress.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
We either inherit these patterns, they've been
taught to us, we've seen them inaction, or we develop them from
a very, very young age as acoping mechanism.
We're very crafty human beings.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yes, but it's like I'm interested in where that
comes from, that pleasing sortof thing as a stress response
Very, very interesting.
Can you take us through, though, what happens to the nervous
system and body physiology whenwe come under chronic stress?
(05:18):
You were mentioning, you know,glucose and adrenaline in the
fright and the fight stages.
I get that Different indifferent stages.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
It is.
So in that fight or flightwe're activating the adrenals,
those stress hormones, so we canquickly move into action.
And what decreases is ourregulated state, our regulated
state.
When I say what decreases isour regulated state, our
regulated state, and when I saywhat decreases is digestion,
immunity, engagement, thatdecreases because that's not
(05:52):
necessary for survival In thatstress response.
The hypothalamus, pituitaryaccess will then release
cortisol to kind of maintainthat energy.
Over time we either produce toomuch or in the case of burnout
or adrenal exhaustion, there'snot enough.
And that's when we can testthat as practitioners In the
(06:14):
free state, when the statebecomes so overwhelmed and we've
been in fight flight for toolong, the free state, I think
think is this wonderfulemergency state of the nervous
system.
We shouldn't be there for toolong because it isn't healthy to
be there for too long.
Often people think freeze is acalm state, because it's just so
(06:35):
different to fight and flight,because you kind of feel a bit
numb to the actual stress ofwhat's happening.
So people often will say, ohyes, I'm in a calm state, but
they're actually in adissociated state.
In a, in a formed state, it'sstill activating, either a fight
flight or freeze response.
(06:57):
The difference with a regulatedstate of the nervous system is
that all blood flow shunts backto that digestive state, to that
rest and digest state.
It's the state where we feelreally calm and connected,
whereas fight, fight, freeze andform they're very protective
states.
Our regulated nervous system iscalled rest and digest.
(07:20):
It's also called socialengagement, where we feel so
safe and comfortable in our ownskin that we want to connect
socially with everyone.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So, anthea, can I ask with regards to adrenaline and
the adrenal glands being engagedin a stress response, whether
that be acute or chronic?
There's the term that has beencoined about adrenal burnout or
(07:53):
adrenal fatigue.
Does it happen in the adrenalsor are we really talking about
brain changes because of astressful response?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think it happens everywhere.
It's because of the nervoussystem's web and its connection
to every single body, organ andsystem.
So in the fight-flight responseit's like we always feel things
within our body, our senses.
So vision, taste, smell,hearing will sense or surveil
(08:24):
the scene.
We call that enteroception.
There is also interoception,where we're sensing our internal
world as well as our externalworld.
That feedback then comes backto the nervous system which then
activates the adrenals.
So it's all parts.
(08:45):
Because look what happens to ourheart rate in fight flight.
It speeds up.
In an exhausted or a freezenumbed out state heart rate
reduces.
In a fight flight breathingactivates and speeds up.
In a more freeze response oradrenally exhausted state the
(09:06):
breathing can slow down.
We will feel sensations ofnumbness in a freeze state,
whereas in a fight flight sensesbecome so heightened we can
acutely hear danger, smell,danger, feel danger in that
freeze adrenal exhausted.
When we're burnt through it all, when we go from that I can to
(09:28):
I can't, we don't sense anything.
Everything's quite dull andflat.
So we say it's a whole bodyexperience in fact, starting off
with our senses internal world,external world tying this in
with assessments that we can use, like the cortisol awakening
(09:48):
response to say the car right.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So we talk about people that have a high morning
and then they drop.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right, rather than coming down gracefully, let's
say, during the day withcortisol, then you get other
people that are flat.
Even if it's flat higher, it'sflat without the day with
cortisol.
Then you get other people thatare flat.
Even even if it's flat higher,it's flat without the variation
yes is, is the issue thatthere's no variation, then it's
not the level per se yeah, Ithink so.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I mean often when I see those kind of results in a,
in a person who's verydissociated, they're a free
state when they're exhausted,usually they have such low
cortisol it's really flat, itdoesn't peak at all.
The ones that are in this fightflight in this acute stress.
(10:39):
Their cortisol readings just goup and they'll stay up
throughout the whole day rightand it depends on the chronicity
as well.
It's really interesting to me.
So some people's results, theymight be just elevated but they
still follow the pattern andit's what they do to self-manage
it's.
It is interesting.
(10:59):
It's not a a regular thing thatyou.
It really all depends onpeople's starting points, how
long they've been stressed for,how they cope and manage with
that stress as well, and thatwill be reflected in those
results and also what melatoninis doing at the other end.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Ah well, let's talk about sleep then.
Yes, other end ah well, let'stalk about sleep then.
You know, you get again yourtwo responses to sleep.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Some people go somnolent and other people can't
get to sleep.
I think in the acute fight andflight people tend to have
trouble sleeping in the freezeresponse.
They're just so exhausted theycan sleep anywhere.
They're good at even usingsleep as a means of dissociating
.
Or they're just exhausted andthey're tired.
Many of my patients don't evenrealize they're in a stress
(11:54):
state.
It's a really interesting thing.
They're so used to it.
They're so used to operatingthat way that they don't realize
they're stressed until I makethem aware that they're acting
in an acute stressed out stateor that they've been in a
chronic ongoing state.
So it's not until that theybecome aware that that the way
(12:21):
they're living life or coping isactually not where they need to
be.
It's not conducive to healing,it's not conducive to living
because they're just in survival.
But they're so used to that wayof being.
I ask them sometimes I'll showthem a diagram of the regulated
state and they go.
I can't remember the last timeI was there.
I I operate from fight flightand if I want to dissociate or
(12:46):
break from that, I go intofreeze where I just numb out.
And people are so clever.
They social media scroll, theytake drugs, they eat.
They do all these behaviors todissociate, but their nervous
system will do it for themanyway when it becomes too much.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Can we investigate that?
How do you take a patientthrough what they should be
feeling and assess where they'reat?
How do you enlighten them as towhere they should be?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's a really good question.
I make them aware of theirnervous system responses.
So we take them through.
You know how they're feeling,what are they thinking, how they
cope with stress at any givenmoment.
So I make them aware of theirnervous system's response.
I usually show them thepolyvagal diagram, the Dr
(13:41):
Stephen Porges diagram, so theycan see where they're positioned
in that diagram, that 3Tdiagram.
I get them really up close andpersonal to the words that they
use and I know this is somethingthat you're really keen to talk
about as well which is thoseinternal stresses, that negative
(14:04):
self-talk that people have andhow we meet that part of
themselves, because that onlyperpetuates the stress that
doesn't position ourselves toheal.
And that's what I talk about.
Repositioning your nervoussystem is just, it's the
physical expression, but it'salso the mental, emotional
(14:26):
expressions of stress and wekind of find those words, the
symptoms, the story around thewords and the symptoms and walk
through that door and get toknow their nervous system's
response.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
This would be quite confronting for some people,
wouldn't it?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
It is and it's also so.
It's revealing, confronting.
And so it's such great relieffor someone to actually meet
their emotions and feelings,because often patients will come
in and say I don't want to feelthis way anymore, I'm so sick
and tired, or I'm so sick ofthis, whatever it might be that
(15:15):
they're doing or managing.
So to have someone say this isa coping mechanism, you're
trying to survive a stress.
And what is stress?
Stress can be anything frominflammation, infection, pain,
but it can be emotional, it canbe environmental, too many
(15:37):
chemicals or smells, it could beglobal affairs, it could be
financial.
It could be global affairs, itcould be financial, it could be
relationship.
The body accumulates all thestresses and activates our
nervous system to fight, flight,freeze, fawn.
However, we cope all of theabove.
Some of them we do more thanothers, and so it is confronting
(16:00):
and so it is confronting.
But when you explain about thephysiological expression of
stress, then the people thenwill say well, no wonder I've
got gut issues, no wonder I'vegot high blood pressure, no
wonder I can't sleep at night,no wonder I feel numb and I
(16:22):
can't sense or feel something.
And so the big thing is tovalidate this.
These are coping mechanisms.
They're not bad.
This is what you've developedand what you've evolved into
coping.
These are your strategies.
However they've come about,what we need to do is understand
(16:44):
the strategy, the parts of youthat are acting this way, the
patterns that have evolved thisway that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I, I can.
I'm just in my mind.
I'm going through so manydifferent conditions from people
just feeling stressed from high, high pressure sorry workers in
high-pressure jobs from, youknow, emotional trauma, the
whole gamut like, oh man, thisis taxing to you, who looks
after you?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
If I don't do my deep work then I can't meet with
people.
But these are the deep-rootedunderlying causes and
contributing factors.
That's why repositioning thenervous system to be in a
position to heal or do we juststay in survival mode, I think
is one of the most importantunderlying areas when we're
looking at holistically healinga patient is the coping
(17:40):
mechanisms tell us a lot.
The coping mechanisms tell us alot.
They may be the underlyingcause or they may be just the
contributing factor.
They create the scene, thescenario, they contribute to
what's happening.
But chances are if someone's gotchronic, ongoing, persistent
symptoms, chronic disease, thereis an element of the nervous
(18:07):
system, of course, always thatis being activated in a
particular way to survivesomething.
So it's hard not to address thenervous system.
That's why it's such animportant factor is when I look
at people, I look at theirnervous system.
I look at whether they'relooking at me, whether they're
fawning.
Look at their nervous system.
I look at whether they'relooking at me, whether they're
fawning, whether they're peoplepleasing me, whether they're
acting in a frightened statesitting opposite me, whether
(18:30):
they're shut down.
They're not actually there.
They're in the clinic oppositeme but they're not really
present.
So I'm assessing how they look,how they feel.
My nervous system is sensingtheir nervous system.
I'm also assessing if they'vegot negative self-talk and that
tells me a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Let's dive into this one.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, we have a lot of negative self-talk.
Doesn't that beget more stress?
Like stress begets stress?
Negative self-talk begetsnegative self-talk.
It keeps us in this perpetualstraight state of stress.
Now, I'm not saying bypass itwith positive self-talk, because
that's bypassing how weactually feel.
(19:15):
But if I hear a part of aperson's voice that is critical,
negative, I hate this.
I don't want to feel like this.
I take that one little piece andI think, well, that part of you
that sounds so negative, thatis criticizing, that is
(19:39):
critiquing what is happening,that part of you is just another
coping mechanism.
It's a part of you that wantsto not feel scared anymore.
It's a part of you that wantsto feel relaxed.
It's a part of you that wantsto feel comfortable.
It's a part of you that wantsto feel safe.
It's acting in a not very nicemanner, but it's actually a part
(20:02):
of you that needs attention andneeds to be met.
So why don't we do that?
Rather than what we resistpersists, let's meet that part
of you, and this is the work ofDr Richard Schwartz Parts Theory
, Internal Family Systems wherewe validate and honour, not
(20:23):
reject or suppress or bypass anyfeeling or symptom.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I'm so with you there .
This whole thing about you know, fake it till you make it the
positive talk when you'refeeling down and things like
that doesn't address anything.
Might be great as a short-termrescue, possibly, but it doesn't
uproot the weed that'sfestering and causing the issues
.
I'm so glad you say that.
(20:52):
But I also look for functionsof things, even though they
might seem bad, even though wemight judge them as not not
being, um, desirable.
So, for instance, you speakabout survival mode and then
we're talking about negativeself-talk.
(21:12):
But that negative self-talkdoes it not have?
Let's go back from evolution,right that?
Ah, you know, keep away yourdopey day of don't do that again
, you don't?
Is that not protecting us fromtouching the hot stove twice,
reaching out for the snake thatwould bite us in the long grass
(21:33):
when we were cavemen and women?
Um, it does.
So the function of that ohsorry, there is a function to
that, but it's just overridingis that what's going on?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
no, see that's.
I see that as a function, I seethat as um acting accordingly.
I don't see that as negativeself-talk.
I think that's informing and Ithink that's great.
It is what it think, that'sgreat, it is what it is.
That's informing it's when we'refestering, it's when we're
having this dialogue withinourselves with our symptoms,
(22:10):
with our disease.
That keeps us in this perpetualstress state that we're not
actually looking at thesesymptoms and disease states and
stressed out feelings as reallya story that needs to be met, as
something that is popping upover and over again, a part of
ourselves that needs attention,a pattern that is well grooved
(22:34):
into our nervous system, that isrequiring some curious, kind,
compassionate attention.
And that's what we're meant todo as practitioners.
We're exploring what you'rethinking, how you're feeling,
how you present your symptoms,how you cope with your symptoms,
because that is the path tounpacking the underlying causes
(22:59):
and contributing factors, yourcoping strategies, your coping
mechanisms.
And yes, it sounds like youknow we're delving into
psychology, but we'renaturopaths and we're holistic
practitioners and so we'relooking at mind, body, spirit,
soul, environment, upbringing,culture, a whole kin and kibbutz
(23:28):
is how does one presentthemselves?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
well, it's all important, totally agree.
So how do we change this though?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
so rather than bypassing, so ignoring, wishing
it didn't exist, whatever the,the feeling, the stress response
, the inner critic, the negativeself-talk is, we bring
ourselves into somewhat of aspace.
That is curious.
That's hard when you're in afight-flight response.
(23:55):
So that's where we think ofwhat do we do for acute stress
then, just so we've got somecapacity, just so we've got some
space, before we look at theunderlying causes.
So in an acute stressed-outstate, someone might be
hyper-energised or have noenergy, especially if it's
chronic stress.
And so to create some capacity,maybe first-day treatment is we
(24:20):
find ways to create energy, wefind ways to calm energy and
stress.
So, whether it's supplements,breathing techniques,
mindfulness, herbal medicines,there is, there is these
different tools that we can usethat positions a person in a
place to have a little bit ofspace, more clarity if they've
(24:44):
got brain fog, more energy ifthey've got no energy, more
regulation if they'rehyperactive, just to then be
able to then get into that realmof.
Why am I feeling this?
Why do I keep having thesesymptoms?
Why do I keep responding inthis way?
Why does my outside worldalways look quite negative or
disastrous?
Sometimes we just need thatfirst aid until we can really
(25:07):
position the nervous system.
We need some first aid reliefyeah and that's what beautiful
tools of naturopathy exist yeah,so let's go into this.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I mean, one of my first sort of go-tos for what
we're talking about here wouldbe I mean, obviously diet is the
foundation.
So let's start with diet, let'sstart there yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So I think, if you know, if someone is seeing a
psychologist or apsychotherapist or even if
you're seeing any practitioner,is to get off the highs and lows
of stuff that you're doing tocope, because either you're
going to be diagnosed with ADHDor you're going to be diagnosed
(25:52):
with having some type of brainfog, and sometimes diet will
impact that greatly.
So if you're really addicted tosugar, do anything that you can
.
Obviously there's a component.
The addiction for sugar meansyou're trying to bomb something
or distract from something oryou're trying to find energy.
But if you're high as a kite oncaffeine and sugar and drugs
(26:14):
and those kinds of things andstimulating foods or soft drinks
or colors, whatever it might be, I think that's one of those
things that you do.
It wouldn't be the first thing,but it is a really important
foundation when we're looking atrepositioning the nervous
system.
So we're not responding in afight, flight, freeze or foreign
state.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
We can respond in a more regulated state and I have
to ask, you know, habits arehard to break.
When somebody's stressed,they're very resistant to change
.
So you know, take us throughthe journey of how you approach
this with patients yeah, so itis.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Isn't it tricky that?
Because it's the stress that'screating, contributing to the
addiction, and then theaddiction we employ to help us
cope with the stress.
So how do you break that cycle?
Is first, the awareness thatthat is what is happening and in
those given moments, what canwe do?
Do we need to like?
(27:14):
There's very, very acute thingsthat one can do to, you know,
calm the nervous system.
Splashing cold water on yourface, a cold compress, I know
it's so simple.
It could be shaking out ordancing out the adrenaline, that
excess adrenaline, instead ofjust saying go and sit in your
room or go and sit in the corner.
(27:35):
If we're in this activatedacute stress response, we need
to exercise, we need to completethat stress cycle and get rid
of all that excess adrenalinecould be.
Just, you know, if we've kindof left the room and we're
wanting to ground ourselves, itcould be.
I do a cute little techniquefive Around senses identify five
(27:57):
things that you see, fourthings that you feel, three
things that you smell, twothings you hear.
One thing you taste, it'swhatever activity.
So often I ask patients what isit that you do that helps you
get grounded?
Patients know there's stuffthat they do, that does, and if
(28:20):
they don't, then we give themthese exercises Again.
It's this acute stuff, theacute stress relief, that just
regulates, even for a shortperiod of time, so they don't
jump to the sugar, so they don'tjump to more caffeine, just to
widen that space from reactionto a response.
(28:43):
It's tricky, but it's so doable.
You're looking at itholistically, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Do you know?
You remind me what you'retalking about there reminds me
of a lady I interviewed someyears ago, megan Sheel, about
dialectical behaviour therapyInstead of CBT, this is DBT, and
she was talking about evenviolent offenders, domestic
violence and things like that,and she'd get them to splash
(29:15):
water onto their face to wakethem up.
But I love, I love what you'vesaid about five, four, three,
two, one.
That's brilliant, because fivethings you can go emergency.
What's my five things?
What's my four things?
Okay, what's it?
And it takes that time.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, so that you've got yeah that's really
interesting.
And it just brings some peoplemeditate.
Some people can meditate, somepeople do a deeper exhalation,
some people have mantras.
So sometimes you work with whata patient already does.
And if they don't do anythingand their coping strategy is
(29:54):
just sugar and caffeine, well,we kind of do some healthy swaps
, from coffee to maybe green tea.
And I talk about l-theanine.
We're not going to give it as asupplement.
It might be start takingmagnesium, it's.
It's a bunch of things.
It's so individual and it's sobespoke, so very prescriptive
(30:16):
what works for each individualperson.
But I think the goal is thiscreate some space, give them the
first aid.
If they've got brain fog, helpthem with clarity.
They've got no energy, givethem energy.
We're not really addressing theunderlying causes at that point
.
It's just creating somecapacity so they become aware
(30:38):
that their nervous system iswhat, and repositioning those
nervous system is what isactually going to put them into
that healing realm.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And other nutrients like, say, fish oils, for
instance, to help to feed theneurons in the brain.
What about things likephosphatidylserine?
Do you ever use that?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, all of those things I mean.
It depends.
Sometimes, as we know know,patients already come in with a
cocktail of things.
They're either not taking goodquality things, they're not
taking the right dose, butsimple things, and again, I
might not even have time to do ablood test because someone is
such in a state where I can'tgive them a list of 10 things to
(31:19):
do or even go and get a bloodtest because they don't have
capacity for it.
So we need to get them to feelbetter quickly.
So that's where I might givethem some activated bees
magnesium, zinc, c, l-theanineit might be those supplements
and then herbally it might bethings like and again, are they
on any prescriptive medication?
(31:39):
So we're not looking doing anydrug interactions, um,
ashwagandha or withania, itmight be saffron, it might be
all my herbal adaptogens andnervous system or nervine herbs
that I love california poppy andpassion.
If someone's not sleeping,let's help them sleep, because
(32:00):
then that creates again capacitypositioning of the nervous
system.
So we're moving from a reactivestate to a more responsive
state and that positioning isthen healing.
Often people think, oh, I feelbetter now.
But that's not.
We haven't addressed yourunderlying causes and
contributing factors.
We've just put you in the realmof healing.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
What about different things in the acute stage versus
the chronic stage, like forinstance licorice employed, you
know, when somebody's reallydepleted but not necessarily
favourable?
Am I correct in this in theacute stage?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, I mean, I like using licorice in both states, I
think, like the ginsengs I usefor those chronic, chronic
stresses, the medicinalmushrooms and astragalus and
things like this.
Um, yeah, it just depends againhow they present.
Are they in the fight flight,where they're so highly wired
they present?
Are they in the fight-flightwhere they're so highly wired
and not sleeping?
(33:02):
Are they in the freeze, brainfog, numb state where I need to
activate them?
So that's when we use different.
See the different stages and thedifferent reactions to stress.
Do we need activation?
Do we need to liven them,awaken them?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And what about toxicants, things like that?
So you know the heavy metals,for instance, persistent organic
pollutants, persistentorganochlorine pollutants.
How do you address this?
I mean, that's a heck of a lotof testing.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So we do that second or I, might you know, just do a
whole bunch of tests that Isuspect, through a really
thorough consultation, we think,oh, they've been exposed to
environmental toxins, they'vebeen exposed to mould.
It takes four weeks to getresults back.
It's what we do in that meantime.
I'm not going to just wait forresults.
What are you doing the meantime?
(34:01):
So when the results come in,that it can creating a stress in
the nervous system, can I dosome first aid to create some
capacity, some clarity, someenergy or some regulation if
they're hyperactive, so we wecan look at the results, so we
can implement a protocol.
So again, it's that positioningof the nervous system in any
(34:25):
which way possible to createcapacity to implement a protocol
.
Some people can only do thewhatever we do to make them feel
better immediately.
Some people we unpack enoughthat we think you know it's time
to see a psychotherapist or apsychologist now to do that
deeper work.
I can get them to the door, butthey need to see their
(34:47):
therapist to do the deeper work.
I get them to the door ofhaving enough capacity mentally,
physically, emotional to do thedeeper work, whether it is with
the naturopath and thepsychologist or psychotherapist,
but it's that first aid,positioning the nervous system,
creating energy, regulatingenergy, creating capacity,
(35:11):
clarity just a quick questionabout polyvagal therapy that you
spoke of earlier.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Do you get people to engage in like singing and
gargling and the what is it?
The external conker of the ear,sorry, pinna of the ear, um,
where they stimulate that to tohelp with stimulation of the
vagal nerve?
Do you do that?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
all of the above, yes , Right, Because they're the
most simplest exercises to tonethe vagus nerve.
But again, it's that once youbecome aware of I'm operating in
a fight-flight or a freezeresponse or a fawn response,
once people become aware oftheir nervous system positioning
(35:58):
, then we can then start havingthose conversations about
polyvagal the vagus nerve,fostering more parasympathetic
nervous system activity, movingfrom that sympathetic nervous
system state to that moreregulated state.
And these are all the differenttechniques.
There are so many techniques touse, which is the good news.
(36:21):
There are techniques that wecan offer to a patient and say
pick the thing that you relateto, the thing that makes you
feel most comfortable, Do thething that makes you feel like
you're regulating your nervoussystem repositioning your nerves
.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yeah, do you know what I was very recently shown?
Just a very simple meditationtrick, if you like, and it's
more physical than mindful andit's a very short breathing
exercise.
That's all Something that youcould do before you pull up to a
(36:58):
meeting in a car, somethingthat you could do just outside
your boss's office, somethingthat you could do before you
pull up to a meeting in a car,something that you could do just
outside your boss's office,something that you could do just
outside your walk in the door.
Like there's a two-minute thing, it doesn't have to be this,
you know an hour-long meditationin a yoga position and things
like that.
I was very impressed with whoshowed me this Can you show us
(37:19):
now.
Oh, can you want me to show you?
So it is simply closing youreyes and taking a long, deep
breath in through your nose andthen exhaling through your mouth
(37:42):
and then completing, crunchingover so you push more air out
and then a big breath in Perfect, that's it.
That's it, you know, and withinthere is a pause in breathing.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
But this was actually taught to me by a dear friend
of mine just recently and I waslike wow, like that's something
that anybody can do in the carfor less than two minutes and
that's why we need these, liketechniques that you know,
because in those stages ofbecoming aware of our nervous
(38:30):
system, responses to stress,some people say, oh, now that I
know and I do this, is that itit's like no, because it's taken
you years to react in this way.
It's like via neuroscience.
And the wonder of neuroscienceis that we can wire in a new
response, a different way thatit's understanding.
(38:53):
It's getting to the roots ofwhy are we reacting that way?
Why are we fawning?
Why are we freezing?
Why are we fleeing?
Why are we reacting that way?
Why are we fawning?
Why are we freezing?
Why are we fleeing?
Why are we fighting?
And so these little techniquesare just so we can really feel
into what regulation means.
What does regulation feelwithin our nervous system?
Because that's ultimately wherewe want to be when we're
(39:17):
looking at healing.
Now, the goal isn't to alwaysbe in a regulated state, and
some patients will say what doyou mean?
Because we're not immune todanger, we're not immune to
stress.
We want to be able to have agreat active, fight, flight,
freeze response, but we alsowant to be able to regulate, not
just stay trapped in thesedifferent spaces.
(39:39):
Regulate, not just stay trappedin these different spaces.
So really the mark ofwell-being is being able to move
between the different states ofyour nervous system adaptation.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yeah, I love your work.
It's brilliant.
Why don't we all do it?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I know I suppose you know what, andrew that people
don't expect it from yournaturopath.
But I think how this is, how dowe address any chronic,
persistent symptom and somehowseparate the nervous system and
stress when we know that isreally what's driving?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
all of it it's just what's.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
It's the why behind the why fight, flight and freeze
.
It's the why it's, and it'susually some type of trauma or
cumulative stress, or taughtpatterns or inherited three
generations the mark of the workof mark wolen.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
It didn't start with you, I have to ask one last
question what advice do you havefor people who want to find
equilibrium with their nervoussystem while navigating the
demands of modern life?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
So, andrew, that is an excellent question.
So you know, being apractitioner for as long as I
have been, the patients that getthe greatest healing response
are the ones that create timeand space to better understand
how their body works.
So, just as we tell them,understand how your digestive
system works if you've gotchronic constipation, how you
(41:16):
digest, absorb your gutmicrobiome.
Constipation, how you digest,absorb your gut microbiome do
the same with your nervoussystem.
Befriend the nervous system.
Understand at any given momentwhere you are in your nervous
system.
Are you reacting from a fightresponse, a flight response?
Are you in a freeze response?
Are you a perpetual fauna?
(41:38):
What is your coping mechanism?
When you understand how yournervous system works, then we
can work with it.
And we always say love what itis that you're looking at.
So when you love enough ofsomething that you're taking
care of, it'll love you back.
(41:59):
When you pay it enoughattention, it'll pay you
attention back.
So follow the love.
Love the thing that you'reworking on.
It will love you back.
Pay attention to the thing thatneeds paying attention to and
it will pay attention back atyou.
Meet the parts that are unmet.
Get to know the parts that areunmet.
(42:20):
Get to know the parts thatrequire attention, because
aren't they what symptoms areand what stress reactions are?
They're a cry for help.
It's look at me.
You're not paying any attentionto me.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Meet me anthea, I've learned so much from this
podcast.
So salient advice, fantastic.
Thank you so much for taking usthrough how you operate, how
you help people to not justnavigate but to, as you say, to
follow the love to their nervoussystem and to help them to to
(42:55):
reengage with life and withothers.
Thank you so much for taking usthrough this very important
topic today on Wellness byDesigns.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Thank you, Andrew.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
We will put as much informationas we can about this crucial
topic up on the podcast notesand, of course, you can catch up
on all of the other podcastepisodes on the Designs for
Health website.
I'm Andrew Whitfield-Cook.
This is Wellness by Designs.
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