Ready to uncover the real stories behind the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic? Join us for a compelling episode of the Wellness Musketeers podcast, where Dr. Richard Kennedy, Ketil Hviding, David Liss, and Aussie Mike James share their personal experiences with the virus. From Dr. Kennedy's severe first infection to Aussie Mike's own surprising evasion of COVID-19, this episode promises insights into the varied individual journeys we've faced. Learn how vaccination played a pivotal role in shaping our experiences and why public health measures remain crucial.
Curious about the enduring effects of long COVID and the importance of vaccination? Dr. Kennedy helps break down the complexities of long COVID, elucidating the wide range of symptoms and the new specialized clinics designed to help those affected. We'll explore the prevalence of long COVID, current research efforts, and tackle vaccine skepticism head-on. Through personal anecdotes and expert advice, we emphasize the safety and significance of getting vaccinated to avoid severe outcomes.
How has COVID-19 reshaped our society? In this episode, we compare the prolonged and unusual symptoms of COVID-19 to the flu, sharing our own experiences and their social implications. We highlight the critical need to protect vulnerable populations, especially children and those with underlying health conditions, through vaccination and booster shots. Get practical tools and advice to enhance your health and wellness in the age of COVID-19. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate us five stars, and share this enlightening episode with your loved ones!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aussie Mike James (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness
Musketeers podcast, where wediscuss health, wellness,
fitness and, more broadly, theart of living.
I'm your host, aussie MikeJames, a freelance writer and
speaker with over 30 years ofinternational experience
managing leading corporatefitness in Australia and in
Washington DC with C with theWorld Bank Group.
I'm joined by my fellowmusketeers Dr Richard Kennedy,
(00:30):
an internist, who has over 36years of clinical experience,
including the World Bankclinical services and private
practice.
Kettle Heiding, an economist,with 30 years of experience.
35 years of experience, mostrecently, 24 years with the IMS.
Kettle has a keen interest inhealth, wellness and the
(00:52):
intersection between wellness,society and how organizations
function.
And, last but certainly notleast, the handsome David Bliss,
a DC-based journalist and mediaprofessional.
Liss, a DC-based journalist andmedia professional.
So today, welcome WildersMusketeers to a special episode
where we're going to look at thecurrent state of COVID Now, as
(01:13):
we enter the fourth year of thepandemic.
The virus continues tochallenge us with new variants
and health impacts, and todaywe'll explore the latest
development, navigate commonconcerns.
And today we'll explore thelatest developments, navigate
(01:34):
common concerns, and try andequip our listeners with the
knowledge all safeguard ourwellness profiles or our
wellness futures.
So, I'd just like to get theball rolling a little bit, guys,
and full disclosure on ourpanel.
Could we give us a little bitof a history of?
Have you actually had COVID atthis point of the journey?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (01:48):
Dr K, what about you?
Yes, twice, twice.
I had it in 20, which wasprobably the worst of it, and I
knew I was going to get itbecause six or seven people in
the building and on our floor inthe clinic Got it.
So, it was a matter, and I knewwho the index case was.
(02:08):
So, there was a patient whocame in and said I'm not feeling
well, I have a fever, I'mcoughing, and we took her
temperature.
And then I asked her why don'tyou put a mask on it?
She said oh no, I've had acommon cold like this before.
I just want to make sure it'snot flu.
And back then we could testthem in the office for COVID.
(02:29):
Of course she had it.
So, then everybody else testedfor the next two days and I
was fine.
On the fourth day I got COVID,and back then, when you got
COVID, you had to be away fromeverybody for 14 days.
Back then, when you got COVID,you had to be away from
everybody for 14 days and fastforward to 20, potentially.
Three and a half weeks ago, outof the blue, without warning, I
(02:52):
developed a cough, and the onlyconnection was I had flown to
Mississippi to meet with mydaughter, and I flew back and
it's a short flight, like anhour flight from Jackson
Mississippi to Houston and I hadmy mask with me.
(03:13):
But I didn't.
And because it's such a shortflight and it's a small plane,
even that short period of timenobody was wearing a mask in the
plane except one person, theperson sitting in front of me.
Three days later I developed acough and that's, I'm assuming,
where I got COVID from.
At the time.
I just all I had was a cough Itook, got COVID and in two days
(03:39):
I was fine, had no othersymptoms.
I just wore a mask around thehouse with everybody and it was
fine.
So, if I compare the two, thesecond time was a very mild case
.
The first time I had four orfive symptoms cough, runny nose,
(04:00):
knees or headache, chills,diarrhea, runny nose, sneezer,
headache, chills, diarrhea, andall I had was a cough.
That was a dry cough for threedays actually, and then it was
good.
Ketil Hviding (04:13):
So, what about you Ketil?
I've had it once, as far as Iknow, and several in the family
had it.
We were traveling to ArgentinaI think this was like maybe a
year after COVID started gettingaround, so I was vaccinated,
probably twice, and my symptomswere quite mild.
(04:35):
I did, because of my age, takemedication, but after a week it
was pretty much gone, and that'sthe only time I know I've had
it.
David Liss (04:46):
What about you, dave ?
For me and COVID, about twoyears ago I had I know who I got
it from.
I worked out with this guyWednesday morning, and he said
Well, my wife has COVID and byFriday I had COVID, and I had a
relatively bad.
I had a horrendous cough forseveral months and I thought I
(05:09):
might have long-term COVID, andI had to go to a pulmonologist
because the cough just wasreally bad and wouldn't stop.
It was very strange.
I had, you know, fullyvaccinated.
I'm grateful for that and Ialways wonder to what degree
myself and many other peopleI've met we may have had some
(05:32):
episode of COVID and not had itregistered full-blown it's .
It was COVID.
Aussie Mike James (05:41):
All right.
Well, it's interesting all ofit because I haven't had it at
all.
And this is my question to you,Dr.
K, without going to a longexplanation, I just think, right
now that I'm retired and I'mnot looking after 3,000 members
of the World Bank Fitness Centeranymore, and knowing all of
your histories, I think I haveless people contact than most of
(06:01):
you and all three of you, andI'm not a recluse by any means.
I'm just thinking in mynon-medical logic here and I'd
like to get your opinion, Dr.
K, would that be the reason,or a major reason, for me not
getting it?
I just haven't had the peoplecontact that you three have had.
I'm fully vaccinated.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (06:21):
Well, that is a good point.
And there's truth in that Ifyou're not in a place where
you're being exposed, thenthere's less likely a chance
that you'll get it.
Now we also know, like anyother viral infection, such as
the flu or the new one that'sout and everybody's talking
(06:41):
about RS, we're all gettingexposed because they are all
airborne organisms.
They're in the air.
So that means is you don'tnecessarily have to be standing
next to the person who has thesymptoms.
Someone could cough on one sideof a store and by the time you
get there you inhale thoseparticulate matters and then it
(07:06):
typically will take two to threedays before the person will get
sick.
Now, depending on the responseof your immune system, if your
immune system recognizes oh,that's a foreign subject, and it
recruits all of the immunecells to come out there, you may
not get COVID.
So, I would almost say thatbecause you have traveled, you
(07:35):
have been with others.
I think when you werecelebrating your birthday and
everything out and about withfolks, I guarantee you were
around somebody who had it.
You were around somebody whohad it.
They may not have had anysymptoms, because we know that
it can take up to two to fivedays after exposure for a person
to develop symptoms.
So that's why, knowing likewith Dave saying that he worked
(08:01):
out with somebody whose spousehad COVID by default, if the
spouse had COVID, it's almostimpossible for that person to
not have been exposed.
So, by default, you spendingany time with that individual
means you are going to getexposed too.
And again, what we have seensince COVID has come because
(08:24):
it's the virus that has changedits stripes pretty frequently in
two periods of time, i.
e.
the different variants, becausesince COVID has come out, there
have been twenty-six variants.
Wow, so there are twenty-sixvariants.
(08:45):
But what has happened since theOmicron?
Omicron was worse than 2020,but as it has changed the amount
of typically a winter illness,all the other viruses COVID has
been a year round.
For the most part, it peaked inthe winter.
(09:16):
Why?
Because we're all indoors moreoften, we're all in enclosed
spaces with other people, and sowe've changed our habits.
Covid forced us all to look athygiene, personal hygiene, more
than the world has ever done.
The Asian community has alwayslooked at it that way, but the
(09:39):
rest of the world didn't.
So, when we started havingpeople use hand sanitizers
everywhere you looked, there wasa hand sanitizer.
Now people carry handsanitizers in their cars or in
their purse with them.
You still have people who carrymasks with them, and during the
winter season this year, thenumber of COVID cases went up in
(10:03):
the United States.
The number of hospitalizationsfor COVID went up in the United
States, but nothing like it wasin 2020 to 2022.
Nothing like it.
Now there are facts and reasonsfor that.
People got vaccinated.
The more people got boostersthe more people changed their
(10:27):
behavior.
People would.
If they knew they were going tobe in an enclosed space they
didn't feel uncomfortable toput a mask on, and so people
went out.
And you see people today here inTexas, like, for instance, they
go to the local Walmart here orthe supermarket Kroger's here
.
Half the staff that worked inthere is wearing a mask all day
(10:49):
long.
A great example.
For some reason, Valentine'sDay is a huge event in Texas.
I never saw anything like it.
I never saw so many flowers andgifts and things like that.
I never saw so many flowers andgifts and things like that.
They literally set up an entireplace where floral arrangements
are out in the parking lot Inparticular, pick up flowers and
(11:16):
candy.
But when that was happening.
You saw people who were workingwearing masks.
You know people Valentine'sthat Day is over and we're back
to sort of a regular routine.
The same people in thesupermarket who were wearing
masks aren't Right.
So it's a very selective sort ofthing and I think it has to do
with what your personalexperience has been with COVID.
(11:38):
So, as you mentioned earlier,some people don't ever bother to
get tested.
You mentioned earlier, somepeople don't ever bother to get
tested.
They just based on what theyknow from friends, family, what
they've read or heard.
I got COVID, I'm going to juststay home, I'm going to do it
and they go lucky.
That's all.
It is Even the amount of longCOVID, because typically we say
(12:00):
a person has long COVID If theyhave one or more symptoms for
more than a month.
So by definition, Dave, you hadlong COVID.
What we didn't know is how longthat might last.
David Liss (12:16):
Everybody's a little bit different.
Yeah well, there's this guy Imet.
I was hacking up almost acomplete long every day and I
was just hacking and then he wastelling me that he had long,
COVID.
He got in all these differentgroups to try and understand how
to work with the symptoms.
(12:37):
He had been unable to exercisefor a long period of time.
He gained weight, He'd hadfatigue, he had all these other
symptoms and then for him overtime, fortunately they started
to fade, and myself with thecough.
But I took an Uber and the guywho was my Uber driver I was
coughing at that time too, andwith a mask on in the back and
(13:01):
he said he almost died.
He, he had liver failure fromCOVID, and I had no idea that it
could affect a person in thatway it affects every system in
the body.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (13:15):
Again, which ones are primarily,
predominantly, predominate atthat time.
There are different reasons whyand this has to do with your
overall general health and it'ssort of why, you see, the
majority of people who havesuccumbed to COVID have been
(13:36):
people who've had concomitanthealth issues that attack their
own immune system.
So, things like diabetes,things like asthma, those things
are because they're constantlyin chronic.
Your immune system isconstantly fighting, and it
(13:57):
feels really if you arefighting one thing at a time.
Ketil Hviding (14:01):
I have a question .
So, david, are you free forlong COVID, you think.
And then the question to DrKennedy is what's the percentage
of people who get long COVID orthose who are infected?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (14:15):
So, I'd say the percentage of people who
get long COVID hard to say, butI'd probably say it's between
10% and 15%, which is a lot.
Ketil Hviding (14:25):
Yes, it's between 10% and 15%, which is a lot.
Yes, it's a lot, because whatdo we know about the causes and
treat to there ?
Because there is research anddifferent hypotheses out there.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (14:39):
Yes, there's a lot of research that
has been going on and they'vebeen studying the long COVID
case to the point where prettymuch all of the large medical
centers around the world, aswell as in this country, have
set up what we call the longCOVID clinics and what they
(15:01):
really are.
All of the specialties, be itcardiology, be it
gastroenterology, neurology,pulmonology, infectious diseases
, psychiatry, mental health allof them get together and they
take each individual case.
Look at what the symptoms are.
(15:24):
The first thing they do is okay, forget that it's COVID for a
moment.
What would I treat this with?
Just based on this person'ssymptoms and that we know it's a
viral infection.
So then they start thatparticular process and what they
find is that there peoplequickly are some recover and
(15:45):
then there are other people whoare a year in, a year and a half
out, still have remnants of thesymptoms.
So, these people get put intophysical therapy, occupational
therapy, respiratory therapy,all of that.
They go through all of thesethings and, at least the last
time I looked at the research, alot of the research doesn't
(16:07):
really understand why somepeople get long COVID and others
don't, because you also havepeople who have diabetes or has
been treated for cancer, thingslike that heart failure, and
they don't get COVID, or if theyget it, they get mild symptoms
and they're done.
The only caveat that peoplethink is that, since more and
(16:30):
more people in the world havegotten vaccinated and boosted,
and because, even though thevariants have changed the effect
of the boosters, even thoughthey change them, they're still
effective in countering, allthey're really trying to do is
to neutralize what the virus cando in the human host.
(16:53):
That's all of them.
David Liss (16:55):
Dr Kennedy, as a doctor, have you had people come
in as patients that didn'tbelieve it was real or didn't
believe in getting vaccines orthings like that?
Sure, how do you deal with that?
Or what do you say?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (17:13):
things like that.
How do you deal with that?
Or what do you say?
Well, you tell them.
So, most of the people whodon't believe it not that they
don't believe it's real, theybelieve it's an infection.
For sure It's kind of hardwhen the entire world is being
affected by it for you to notbelieve that it exists.
But what they'll say is thereare a lot of people who've just
been anti-vaxxers that thinkthat being vaccinated has caused
(17:34):
problems.
Vaccination is essentially amedication and, like any
medication that has ever beengiven to humans, even if over
the counter , it has thepotential to cause harm to
somebody.
The problem is you can't reallypredict who it's going to.
You kind of know based onstudies.
(17:56):
So, with all those people theyhad in the trial before they
initially released the Pfizer,the Moderna vaccines, was that
they found that okay, yeah,there were a few people, but the
percentage was less than 1% whohad bad reactions to the
vaccine.
(18:16):
Well, those people, you tellthem.
And I've had people who've hadfamily members who've gotten
COVID.
Remember I had a gentleman whohad gone to visit his daughter
in another got and COVID.
(18:36):
When he got back, washospitalized on a respirator and
then when he finally clearedand returned.
He had to get clearance to goback to work.
So, he came in to see me.
We start talking about gettingvaccinated.
Well, there was no reason tovaccinate him immediately
because his body had already,with all of the infection that
(19:00):
he had, the immune system hadalready produced.
But the recommendation was thatin six months, three months,
you should get vaccinated.
His argument was why should Iget vaccinated now?
I've already had it.
And I said Well, the problem isyou get this again and you've
(19:20):
already had a near-termexperience being on a
respiratory.
Why do you want it to happenagain?
And he said I'll take my chance.
David Liss (19:31):
I just don't want it to happen again.
And he said I'll take my chance.
I just don't understand that.
What's that line?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (19:36):
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt,
that's just I hope that you havepeople out there spewing that
it's not real, it's poison.
They're trying to put chipsinside of you and all this other
kind of nonsense.
They're spewing that it's notreal, it's poison.
They're trying to put chipsinside of you and all this other
kind of nonsense.
So, when you have thathappening and again people just
(20:01):
sometimes are looking for areason not to do something If
you give them an ethnic reason,they're good.
Ketil Hviding (20:09):
In the beginning it was rolled out as an
emergency measure, but thatchanged, so I could have some
sympathy with people who weresomewhat afraid because it was
an emergency measure, but sincethen there's lot a more
observations.
Oh yeah, so if you'reanti-vaxxer, of course it's an
easy thing, but then I think,unfortunately, some people have
(20:32):
become anti-vaxxers after this.
Very true.
David Liss (20:37):
Is COVID a crisis now?
Because I feel like people justput it away and they're done
with it for the most part, likeif I go to a gym, you don't
really need to wipe up afteryourself.
Or if you go, what's good?
If I go to a gym, you don'treally need to wipe up after
yourself.
Or if you go to a Well, I mean,it seems like people are kind
of half, but in many places yougo it's like it doesn't exist,
(20:58):
it's like it's gone.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (21:00):
Well, but again, first of all, it's not
gone, and any viral infectionsort of decides to express
itself to the world.
It never really leaves.
It will have quiet moments, butthe problem is we only react to
(21:21):
it when it a crisis.
It's not as much a crisis as itwas in 2020 and 2021, for sure,
but a lot of that has to dowith the fact that a large
percentage of the world has beenvaccinated.
A large percentage of the worldhas changed their hygiene
(21:43):
behavior, you know, and sotherefore, you've gotten away
from it being a crisis, but it'ssomething that is still here
why they continue to recommendthe vaccine?
Partly because the viruscontinues to change its stripes.
Ketil Hviding (22:06):
But if someone says that, oh, it's just like
the flu I mean, in flu you needa vaccine what would be your
response?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (22:17):
Well, the only time the flu killed as many
people as this did was in 1980.
That was before we had anyvaccine.
Since we've had a vaccineagainst the flu, and they've
been doing a good enough job ofbeing able to predict the newer
strains of flu that come eachyear.
(22:41):
The other thing is flu hasnever been, for the most part, a
year-round infection.
Covid is a year-round infection.
You can get it anytime,anywhere in any part of the year
.
It doesn't have to be flu.
It's mostly a winter, earlyspring infection.
Ketil Hviding (23:02):
But do we have in terms of data for the situation
now and comparing flu anddeaths to COVID?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (23:12):
Well, you mean in terms?
Ketil Hviding (23:13):
well, yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly how
to compare it, but I would thinkthat it's the probability.
If you're not, well, I don'tknow, I mean it basically that
makes sense.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (23:26):
The death toll from flu each year, for the
most part, has been consistentover the years.
It hasn't changed very much.
We're nowhere where we were,where a million people were
dying.
Sure, like it was at its height.
Yeah, was at its height.
(23:47):
It's just that when this is themost and the best way for me, I
look at it, it is still themost contagious thing the
world's ever seen.
And so, yes, the flu iscontagious, but not everybody
who gets exposed to the flu willget it.
(24:08):
Well, same thing with COVID.
The problem is that, whereas fluhas predominantly been an upper
respiratory to deep respiratoryproblem, covid, basically
because of what it does.
It attacks the body.
It increases clottingmechanisms, which normally is
(24:28):
not a good thing.
In other parts of the body, itincreases clotting mechanisms,
which normally is not a goodthing, in other parts of the
body, certain parts of the body,so it.
And that's why, when youmentioned earlier, someone could
have had liver failure.
They had someone who startedpassing blood through their
stool.
You could have had someonecoughing up blood.
(24:49):
You could have had someone whohad a stroke, someone having a
heart attack, someone's kidneyfailing, the pancreas being down
.
All of this can occur withCOVID.
You don't see that with the flu.
You just don't see that withthe flu.
Ketil Hviding (25:08):
And then long COVID as well, which we don't
know so much about.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (25:12):
You know most people that with the flu
and then long COVID as well,which we don't know so much
about, you won't see.
You know most people who getthe flu.
They'll be sick for a period oftime but they're going to
recover, they're going torecover, and they're done.
David Liss (25:24):
Is COVID?
Unusual in that there's a longCOVID.
There's no long flu necessarily, is there?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (25:28):
First, I've heard of it, there's no long
flu necessarily, is there?
First, I've heard of it thatthere's been a thing that has
legs that continue.
And look at it, those peoplehave long COVID.
If you test them, there may notbe any evidence that the COVID
is positive unless you do reallyspecific tests.
David Liss (25:48):
When I was going through the worst of it.
They didn't want to test me.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (25:57):
They expected you to be positive.
We knew that in the verybeginning.
We had people who would testpositive for COVID, have no
symptoms at all and staypositive for six months.
We had people who werecompletely asymptomatic, and
they only tested because asignificant other who they live
(26:19):
with tested positive and hadsymptoms.
So, they tested.
But we know that the body'sability to sort of wash it all
out so that you get a negativetest can be three to six months.
Aussie Mike James (26:33):
Let me ask you guys I mean, you've all had
it and, Dave, you sound likeyou've had it very badly what's
the major difference you foundwith COVID and flu, just in
terms of the visceral symptoms?
What made it?
David Liss (26:46):
Well, for me personally, it was this really
severe cough.
I mean I was in finally gettingsix-pack abs in my life, but it
was from coughing, I mean thatwas.
The only thing that upset meabout getting better from the
cough is that I thought mysix-pack is going to go away.
I've never experienced a coughlike that.
I've never experienced anillness that lingered for an
(27:08):
indeterminate, unpredictableperiod of time.
You know, I wasn't sure how toapproach work, on the sense of
going into the office or justbecause the cough was so bad.
I finally did go back but Ifound a way to isolate myself.
And it was kind of crazy too,because the same organizations
that were like not lettingpeople come in now was an
(27:31):
employment issue because youwanted to go out, because I
didn't know how to work with thecough that I had.
What?
Aussie Mike James (27:39):
What about you, Dr.
K, what was the difference youfeel between that and flu?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (27:44):
the two times I've had the flu in my
life.
I would acutely ill for a week,and I had all the typical I had
a cough, I had a runny nose, Ihad a headache, I was nauseated,
I had a fever, I had body achesand chills.
My whole body hurt.
(28:05):
I couldn't do anything for aweek but then when it stopped,
it stopped and a week, a day ortwo after, but I got back to
normal, whereas the first time Ihad COVID after I had no longer
had the cough, no longer hadthe aches and pains and things
(28:27):
like that, I was just tired fora month, I didn't have the level
of energy that I normally hadand just doing normal things
wore me out.
And also, covid was the firsttime I, as a clinician, I'd seen
people get a cold, and I'm surethere are other conditions that
do it but get a cold.
(28:48):
And I'm sure there are otherconditions that do it but get a
symptom.
They're only symptoms that Ican't feel anything anymore and
I can't taste.
I've seen that before, unlessyou have a specific sort of
thing, and it would linger forthe longest period of time.
So, it was odd to see that andagain, once again, something
(29:10):
I've not seen and that's thething about COVID is that,
because it affects the entirebody, any symptom, and it's why
when you go and look up symptomsof COVID, they give you the
sort of common sort of things.
But you could list a hundredand all be accurate Because
(29:31):
somebody could get it.
Aussie Mike James (29:34):
What about you, Kettle?
What's the difference you foundbetween COVID and the common
flu or cold?
Ketil Hviding (29:41):
I mean I didn't get very sick.
You know, when I had the flu,the fever was much higher and
also, I had the experience thatit was acute and then it goes
away.
Here it's, I mean it was morenot that clear what was really
going but , I did feelsomething and they kind of took
(30:01):
probably longer to go away.
I mean it's also I, I don'tknow, maybe I have some effects
of something.
I mean there's this doubt,because you also read about
things that it affects your bodyin a different way.
That's why I'm mostly concernedabout the long COVID.
I know people who lost theirmale and after, I think, a year,
(30:23):
still not there.
Aussie Mike James (30:26):
Rich, I wonder if you could comment on
this case.
It's got a bit of popular mediaattention when we talk about
being totally reclusive, as somepeople were and haven't gotten
over that.
It's still like that.
There was the case of HowardStoon.
They say he's almost a totalrecluse, lives in his huge
apartment in New York City, veryrarely gets out, but he got
(30:48):
COVID.
Very rarely gets out, but hegot covered.
Now the common theory for usnon-medical people is to say,
well, he didn't build up anynatural immunities because he's
staying inside the whole time.
Could you comment on that?
Is that any truth in that?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (31:00):
oh yeah, that's true you don't expose
their, your immune system won'tfeel a threat, so it won't try
to develop things that itdoesn't need to.
Now, that being said, remember,this is an airborne organism,
so he may not go out of hisapartment, but there are people
(31:22):
who may walk on the floor thathe lives on.
Yeah, there may be people whodeliver his meal on.
There may be people who deliverhis meal.
There may be people who pick uphis laundry and take his
laundry those things people arebreathing and so the air
circulates there.
His wife leads a normal life,so I guess that could be for
(31:46):
them.
So, everybody.
The issue is we're all going toget exposed.
The issue is will you havesymptoms?
If you're unlucky, you'll havesymptoms.
If you're really unlucky,you'll end up in the hospital.
Aussie Mike James (32:01):
I think it was Baba Booey's fault.
Myself I blame Baba Booey if Iwere Harold, like he always does
.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (32:10):
Well, like he always does, I have friends
who, when you know how, as weloosen the things up and we're
getting to some degree of normalwhere we can go out and we can
get together again in publicplaces, I have friends who
wouldn't do so.
For instance, I have fourfriends that I've known since
1970.
And we quarterly used to gettogether to have dinner, things
(32:36):
like that, all that kind ofstuff.
Well, one of them, he wouldn'tgo out and if he went anywhere,
he'd wear a mask.
Even if he was around otherpeople, he'd sit as far away
from everybody as he could.
He would text us his joke.
You know, we'd be sitting onthe other side of the restaurant
(32:58):
His joke.
Well, for some people and somepeople it's okay.
I'm afraid I don't want to getsick, I don't want to have to
deal with and we've all beentouched by somebody we know
who've gotten COVID and gottenit bad enough that we saw them
(33:20):
suffering.
Even if we weren't with them,we heard about it, we'd call
them, we'd see them on Zoom,we'd see them on a video.
And you know, when you seethose things, those things take
heart.
You feel that, and so humannature is protect myself.
You know how do I protectmyself?
So, for some people they'll dothe extremes and go okay, you
(33:44):
know me and the planet, okay,I'll come out if I absolutely
have to, but I'll, you know, I'mgoing to wear a glove, I'm
going to have a mask on, I'mwearing a hat.
You know my sleeves I neverwear short sleeves All the
little things for fear of thathappening.
(34:05):
When I first got covid the firsttime I got covid, because I'm
living with other people I livedin the basement, and I got all
my food.
You know they would knock onthe door and say your meal
meal's ready.
Wait till I leave.
They closed the door and I goup.
That's to ship my meal.
So, I was put in a basement aswell, you know.
(34:27):
That's why I say I never wantto hear the word mental again
Lost her really quickly.
Aussie Mike James (34:37):
One of my good colleagues at the World
Bank, a psychologist, said it'salso had the effect beyond the
physical and contributed to theloneliness epidemic out there
because people who had apredisposition, who would
probably go home and live theirown life, were led to the
loneliness instance.
It's exacerbated that becauseit's given them now more of a
(34:59):
fear of even going out.
Have you guys experienced thatYou'd seen people become more
likely?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a real problem in societybecause you think you'll just
never hear from these folks.
Ketil Hviding (35:13):
I haven't experienced it that much myself,
but maybe that's also becauseof the people I'm surrounded by,
but I've been particularlyconcerned about what we've seen
with children and lost years ofschooling.
One thing that's COVID isdifferent from some of the other
illnesses we talk about is howit affects people on the age
spectrum, so younger are lesslikely, and so maybe there was
(35:39):
some overreaction when it cameto children and youth, because
also the psychological impacthas been large.
David Liss (35:46):
There was a man I was talking with, and he was a
counselor in a high school andhe was talking about how you had
these kids that were all of asudden they're in high school
and when they left they were inhigh school, and when they left
they were in elementary schoolor something like that.
Because two years at home andall this time behind the screen
(36:07):
and then having to readjust andnot being able to just shut
something off when you're tryingto be in front of it and just
socialization.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (36:15):
Yeah.
David Liss (36:16):
Yeah exactly.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (36:18):
Yeah, I think that the children,
particularly the children underthe age of 10, they might suffer
a little bit more, becausethose are formative years where
you're learning socialization,how to interact with people, how
to engage yourself in theschool world, in the family
world, been in the school world,in the family world, learning
(36:43):
the sort of right from wrongkind of thing, whereas now you
give them a laptop and you givethem a computer or an iPad and
you say basically, look, this ishow we're going to communicate
with you.
And there are some of us who,as we grow up, we're more
comfortable being by ourselves.
Yes, for people who are morecomfortable, they need to be in
(37:03):
the crowd, they need to be inthe midst.
You lost that, so you literallyput an entire generation of
kids in this environment wheregetting used to your
communication is a screen.
David Liss (37:18):
Yeah, I mean I have friends and their kids have no
close friends in the physicalworld.
Their friends are all virtualfrom the game they play.
They could be in Kenya, Canadaor Kentucky and but they don't
have anyone.
They could go write a bike andget a sandwich with.
Yeah.
Aussie Mike James (37:39):
Which turned back to the vaccines a little
bit, the often quoted misgivingsof people who don't like
vaccines.
They say that there's a highincidence of myocarditis.
Could you comment on that fromthe vaccine?
Well, what is myocarditis?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (37:53):
It's inflammation of the heart muscle
, and so, first and foremost, Ialways say it depends on who's
making the statement Correct.
So, first and foremost, Ialways say it depends on who's
making the statement.
So, by definition, any sideeffect of anything is high if
you happen to be the individualor individuals who get it.
But if you know and I alwayssay, think of it from the
(38:13):
perspective they gave out 70 to100 million people got
vaccinated about 70 to 100million people got vaccinated in
the US, and maybe less than 1%of people got myocarditis.
So, you need to sort of labelit as the number kind of thing.
But the way we look at drugs andtheir safety profile, that it
(38:37):
can't be something that givessuch significant side effects
and I don't know the actualnumbers that they're talking
about but it's such a uniquething that they'll pull it off
the market if it's causing thatmany side effects, particularly
if the side effect is leading todeath.
They'll pull it off the marketin a heartbeat, leading to death
(39:02):
.
They'll pull it off the marketin a heartbeat.
But there are people who willtake aspirin or Tylenol and have
bleeding from taking that thanthe people who are taking this
vaccine, and you're sorry forthe people who do get the side
effects, but that's the thing isyou can't make one chemical
that is going to be suitable forthe entire global population,
(39:24):
because there's just enoughdifferences in all of us that
what one person might react toothers may not.
Aussie Mike James (39:33):
When we're talking about the children and
infants Rich and again.
It's purely anecdotal, but Ithink a lot of people might have
experienced this.
I had my little buddy Sammy,who you've both met.
He was only under two years ofage, and he fell asleep on my
shoulder for about an hour oneday.
The next day he got diagnosedhe had infant COVID.
I got absolutely nothingBecause I was vaccinated or
(39:54):
because his little system justcouldn't cope.
I had no idea.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (40:01):
It probably had something to do with you
being vaccinated for sure, right, and also for the most part
young kids, unless they hadagain certain health condition
if they got covid and you'veheard this again and again and
again.
My nephew he was eight at thetime he got COVID and he was
(40:26):
sick for a day and it was fineafter that.
But everybody his mother, hisfather, his grandmother, his
auntie, everybody else was sickfor three weeks and so they'd
all been vaccinated.
So, you're going to find casesthat don't mean most kids have
(40:50):
done well they have.
You know, the type 1 diabeticmight have a problem.
An asthmatic child might have aproblem.
Anyone with any of these blooddisorders like leukemia and
things like that.
They're more likely to have aproblem.
Anyone with any immunedeficiency.
(41:12):
You know the number of peoplewith HIV.
Percentage-wise there are morepeople maybe getting COVID and
their symptoms might last alittle longer, but they've
recovered and again it goes back.
This really still goes back.
What is the general basicwellness of the individual?
David Liss (41:36):
What do you think the world is going to be like
going forward?
Or how should we think aboutCOVID in the next year, two
years?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (41:43):
World Health Organization is that if
people have not been vaccinatedfor more than six months, they
(42:04):
probably should go and get abooster, because there are two
new variants out now.
One is E5 something and theother one is XTEC-B1.something.
They have caused mild symptoms,and it was in an accelerated
(42:25):
phase during the winter monthsDecember, January, February but
less so now, and so there's anexpectation that there'll be a
new variant soon, and so youwant to get a booster shot in
order to do that.
And again, it goes back tocommon sense General hand
(42:48):
hygiene, washing your hands,covering your mouth when you
cough or sneeze, or stayinghydrated, being as fit as you
can be, eating healthy all ofthese things.
This is for any infection, butit's .undefined for a cold
Aussie Mike James (43:06):
Dr.
K, You would recommend thebooster shot that's out there
now, even fully.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (43:10):
Yeah, you would recommend it well, what
fully vaccinated to me onlymeans that you've probably been
more than six months than mostpeople have gotten, so therefore
they expect that the strengthand the protection of the
vaccine starts to wane after sixmonths.
Aussie Mike James (43:30):
Okay, A booster definitely.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (43:33):
And I would say those of us who've been
with it kind of it is in theirbest interest to get a booster.
Yeah, okay, you already knowhow bad it could be for you and
how bad it was For me clinically, having seen my patients in the
(43:54):
hospital and I always saythey'd have shown what it looked
like for a patient to be on arespirator in a hospital with
COVID, unlike anything I'd everseen and we might not have had
the resistance that we had if wejust showed that.
Aussie Mike James (44:15):
So, this has been a great discussion.
We have covered all aspects anda lot of the anecdotes that I'm
sure a lot of our listenershave encountered.
Dr.
K, I guess, just to sum up,what would be your two or three
or four takeaways do you havefor our listeners regarding
Covid?
What will the future be likefor us living with Covid?
What are the best practices?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (44:37):
Well, I would say COVID is here to stay.
It's not going anywhere.
So, part of it is what can wedo with individuals and a
society in a world to mitigateit to the best of our ability?
One is getting vaccineappropriately, so doing
appropriate things.
(44:57):
Don't put yourself at risk.
In other words, if you don'tfeel well, stay home, stay safe.
So, we should not want toinfect others because, again it
is very contagious and we knowthat not everybody who's going
to be exposed is going to get it.
They may be the person to passit on to somebody who can't
(45:21):
fight it.
Well, you're not vaccinated andmakes it easier for that to
happen.
And the other important pointis most of the hospitalization
today and most of the cases ofthe more significant COVID
infections are still in peopleover sixty, or those with
(45:43):
concomitant health issues Asthmalike diabetes, heart disease,
things like that, more immunedeficiencies.
Those people are more at risk,not to say that the perfectly
healthy person can't get itbecause they do.
Aussie Mike James (46:02):
Yeah, no question about it and then
you're, of course you'rementioned hand hygiene and
general hygiene and exercisefitness or exercise water more
water, water okay, all right,I'll remember when I'm on my
fifth beer tonight.
There's water and beer.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (46:21):
There is, there is.
There's no water only.
Aussie Mike James (46:27):
All right.
Well, on that note, thanks guys.
It was great.
Thanks very much to my co-host,Dr.
Richard Kennedy, Ketil Hvidingand David Liss.
Thank you for joining usWellness Musketeers.
(46:50):
Tune in for upcoming episodesto gain the tools to improve
your health, work performanceand live with a greater
understanding of the world weexperience together.
Please subscribe, give us afive-star review, and share this
recording with your family andfriends.
You can make a contributionthrough a link provided in
program notes.
To allow this podcast to grow,let us know what you need to
(47:12):
learn to help you live your bestlife.
Send your questions and ideasfor future episodes to David
Liss at Davidmliss@gmail.
com.
Thank you very much, folks, andhave a wonderful day.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness
Musketeers podcast, where wediscuss health, wellness,
fitness and, more broadly, theart of living.
I'm your host, aussie MikeJames, a freelance writer and
speaker with over 30 years ofinternational experience
managing leading corporatefitness in Australia and in
Washington DC with C with theWorld Bank Group.
I'm joined by my fellowmusketeers Dr Richard Kennedy,
(00:30):
an internist, who has over 36years of clinical experience,
including the World Bankclinical services and private
practice.
Kettle Heiding, an economist,with 30 years of experience.
35 years of experience, mostrecently, 24 years with the IMS.
Kettle has a keen interest inhealth, wellness and the
(00:52):
intersection between wellness,society and how organizations
function.
And, last but certainly notleast, the handsome David Bliss,
a DC-based journalist and mediaprofessional.
Liss, a DC-based journalist andmedia professional.
So today, welcome WildersMusketeers to a special episode
where we're going to look at thecurrent state of COVID Now, as
(01:13):
we enter the fourth year of thepandemic.
The virus continues tochallenge us with new variants
and health impacts, and todaywe'll explore the latest
development, navigate commonconcerns.
And today we'll explore thelatest developments, navigate
(01:34):
common concerns, and try andequip our listeners with the
knowledge all safeguard ourwellness profiles or our
wellness futures.
So, I'd just like to get theball rolling a little bit, guys,
and full disclosure on ourpanel.
Could we give us a little bitof a history of?
Have you actually had COVID atthis point of the journey?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (01:48):
Dr K, what about you?
Yes, twice, twice.
I had it in 20, which wasprobably the worst of it, and I
knew I was going to get itbecause six or seven people in
the building and on our floor inthe clinic Got it.
So, it was a matter, and I knewwho the index case was.
(02:08):
So, there was a patient whocame in and said I'm not feeling
well, I have a fever, I'mcoughing, and we took her
temperature.
And then I asked her why don'tyou put a mask on it?
She said oh no, I've had acommon cold like this before.
I just want to make sure it'snot flu.
And back then we could testthem in the office for COVID.
(02:29):
Of course she had it.
So, then everybody else testedfor the next two days and I
was fine.
On the fourth day I got COVID,and back then, when you got
COVID, you had to be away fromeverybody for 14 days.
Back then, when you got COVID,you had to be away from
everybody for 14 days and fastforward to 20, potentially.
Three and a half weeks ago, outof the blue, without warning, I
(02:52):
developed a cough, and the onlyconnection was I had flown to
Mississippi to meet with mydaughter, and I flew back and
it's a short flight, like anhour flight from Jackson
Mississippi to Houston and I hadmy mask with me.
(03:13):
But I didn't.
And because it's such a shortflight and it's a small plane,
even that short period of timenobody was wearing a mask in the
plane except one person, theperson sitting in front of me.
Three days later I developed acough and that's, I'm assuming,
where I got COVID from.
At the time.
I just all I had was a cough Itook, got COVID and in two days
(03:39):
I was fine, had no othersymptoms.
I just wore a mask around thehouse with everybody and it was
fine.
So, if I compare the two, thesecond time was a very mild case
.
The first time I had four orfive symptoms cough, runny nose,
(04:00):
knees or headache, chills,diarrhea, runny nose, sneezer,
headache, chills, diarrhea, andall I had was a cough.
That was a dry cough for threedays actually, and then it was
good.
Ketil Hviding (04:13):
So, what about you Ketil?
I've had it once, as far as Iknow, and several in the family
had it.
We were traveling to ArgentinaI think this was like maybe a
year after COVID started gettingaround, so I was vaccinated,
probably twice, and my symptomswere quite mild.
(04:35):
I did, because of my age, takemedication, but after a week it
was pretty much gone, and that'sthe only time I know I've had
it.
David Liss (04:46):
What about you, dave ?
For me and COVID, about twoyears ago I had I know who I got
it from.
I worked out with this guyWednesday morning, and he said
Well, my wife has COVID and byFriday I had COVID, and I had a
relatively bad.
I had a horrendous cough forseveral months and I thought I
(05:09):
might have long-term COVID, andI had to go to a pulmonologist
because the cough just wasreally bad and wouldn't stop.
It was very strange.
I had, you know, fullyvaccinated.
I'm grateful for that and Ialways wonder to what degree
myself and many other peopleI've met we may have had some
(05:32):
episode of COVID and not had itregistered full-blown it's .
It was COVID.
Aussie Mike James (05:41):
All right.
Well, it's interesting all ofit because I haven't had it at
all.
And this is my question to you,Dr.
K, without going to a longexplanation, I just think, right
now that I'm retired and I'mnot looking after 3,000 members
of the World Bank Fitness Centeranymore, and knowing all of
your histories, I think I haveless people contact than most of
(06:01):
you and all three of you, andI'm not a recluse by any means.
I'm just thinking in mynon-medical logic here and I'd
like to get your opinion, Dr.
K, would that be the reason,or a major reason, for me not
getting it?
I just haven't had the peoplecontact that you three have had.
I'm fully vaccinated.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (06:21):
Well, that is a good point.
And there's truth in that Ifyou're not in a place where
you're being exposed, thenthere's less likely a chance
that you'll get it.
Now we also know, like anyother viral infection, such as
the flu or the new one that'sout and everybody's talking
(06:41):
about RS, we're all gettingexposed because they are all
airborne organisms.
They're in the air.
So that means is you don'tnecessarily have to be standing
next to the person who has thesymptoms.
Someone could cough on one sideof a store and by the time you
get there you inhale thoseparticulate matters and then it
(07:06):
typically will take two to threedays before the person will get
sick.
Now, depending on the responseof your immune system, if your
immune system recognizes oh,that's a foreign subject, and it
recruits all of the immunecells to come out there, you may
not get COVID.
So, I would almost say thatbecause you have traveled, you
(07:35):
have been with others.
I think when you werecelebrating your birthday and
everything out and about withfolks, I guarantee you were
around somebody who had it.
You were around somebody whohad it.
They may not have had anysymptoms, because we know that
it can take up to two to fivedays after exposure for a person
to develop symptoms.
So that's why, knowing likewith Dave saying that he worked
(08:01):
out with somebody whose spousehad COVID by default, if the
spouse had COVID, it's almostimpossible for that person to
not have been exposed.
So, by default, you spendingany time with that individual
means you are going to getexposed too.
And again, what we have seensince COVID has come because
(08:24):
it's the virus that has changedits stripes pretty frequently in
two periods of time, i.
e.
the different variants, becausesince COVID has come out, there
have been twenty-six variants.
Wow, so there are twenty-sixvariants.
(08:45):
But what has happened since theOmicron?
Omicron was worse than 2020,but as it has changed the amount
of typically a winter illness,all the other viruses COVID has
been a year round.
For the most part, it peaked inthe winter.
(09:16):
Why?
Because we're all indoors moreoften, we're all in enclosed
spaces with other people, and sowe've changed our habits.
Covid forced us all to look athygiene, personal hygiene, more
than the world has ever done.
The Asian community has alwayslooked at it that way, but the
(09:39):
rest of the world didn't.
So, when we started havingpeople use hand sanitizers
everywhere you looked, there wasa hand sanitizer.
Now people carry handsanitizers in their cars or in
their purse with them.
You still have people who carrymasks with them, and during the
winter season this year, thenumber of COVID cases went up in
(10:03):
the United States.
The number of hospitalizationsfor COVID went up in the United
States, but nothing like it wasin 2020 to 2022.
Nothing like it.
Now there are facts and reasonsfor that.
People got vaccinated.
The more people got boostersthe more people changed their
(10:27):
behavior.
People would.
If they knew they were going tobe in an enclosed space they
didn't feel uncomfortable toput a mask on, and so people
went out.
And you see people today here inTexas, like, for instance, they
go to the local Walmart here orthe supermarket Kroger's here
.
Half the staff that worked inthere is wearing a mask all day
(10:49):
long.
A great example.
For some reason, Valentine'sDay is a huge event in Texas.
I never saw anything like it.
I never saw so many flowers andgifts and things like that.
I never saw so many flowers andgifts and things like that.
They literally set up an entireplace where floral arrangements
are out in the parking lot Inparticular, pick up flowers and
(11:16):
candy.
But when that was happening.
You saw people who were workingwearing masks.
You know people Valentine'sthat Day is over and we're back
to sort of a regular routine.
The same people in thesupermarket who were wearing
masks aren't Right.
So it's a very selective sort ofthing and I think it has to do
with what your personalexperience has been with COVID.
(11:38):
So, as you mentioned earlier,some people don't ever bother to
get tested.
You mentioned earlier, somepeople don't ever bother to get
tested.
They just based on what theyknow from friends, family, what
they've read or heard.
I got COVID, I'm going to juststay home, I'm going to do it
and they go lucky.
That's all.
It is Even the amount of longCOVID, because typically we say
(12:00):
a person has long COVID If theyhave one or more symptoms for
more than a month.
So by definition, Dave, you hadlong COVID.
What we didn't know is how longthat might last.
David Liss (12:16):
Everybody's a little bit different.
Yeah well, there's this guy Imet.
I was hacking up almost acomplete long every day and I
was just hacking and then he wastelling me that he had long,
COVID.
He got in all these differentgroups to try and understand how
to work with the symptoms.
(12:37):
He had been unable to exercisefor a long period of time.
He gained weight, He'd hadfatigue, he had all these other
symptoms and then for him overtime, fortunately they started
to fade, and myself with thecough.
But I took an Uber and the guywho was my Uber driver I was
coughing at that time too, andwith a mask on in the back and
(13:01):
he said he almost died.
He, he had liver failure fromCOVID, and I had no idea that it
could affect a person in thatway it affects every system in
the body.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (13:15):
Again, which ones are primarily,
predominantly, predominate atthat time.
There are different reasons whyand this has to do with your
overall general health and it'ssort of why, you see, the
majority of people who havesuccumbed to COVID have been
(13:36):
people who've had concomitanthealth issues that attack their
own immune system.
So, things like diabetes,things like asthma, those things
are because they're constantlyin chronic.
Your immune system isconstantly fighting, and it
(13:57):
feels really if you arefighting one thing at a time.
Ketil Hviding (14:01):
I have a question .
So, david, are you free forlong COVID, you think.
And then the question to DrKennedy is what's the percentage
of people who get long COVID orthose who are infected?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (14:15):
So, I'd say the percentage of people who
get long COVID hard to say, butI'd probably say it's between
10% and 15%, which is a lot.
Ketil Hviding (14:25):
Yes, it's between 10% and 15%, which is a lot.
Yes, it's a lot, because whatdo we know about the causes and
treat to there ?
Because there is research anddifferent hypotheses out there.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (14:39):
Yes, there's a lot of research that
has been going on and they'vebeen studying the long COVID
case to the point where prettymuch all of the large medical
centers around the world, aswell as in this country, have
set up what we call the longCOVID clinics and what they
(15:01):
really are.
All of the specialties, be itcardiology, be it
gastroenterology, neurology,pulmonology, infectious diseases
, psychiatry, mental health allof them get together and they
take each individual case.
Look at what the symptoms are.
(15:24):
The first thing they do is okay, forget that it's COVID for a
moment.
What would I treat this with?
Just based on this person'ssymptoms and that we know it's a
viral infection.
So then they start thatparticular process and what they
find is that there peoplequickly are some recover and
(15:45):
then there are other people whoare a year in, a year and a half
out, still have remnants of thesymptoms.
So, these people get put intophysical therapy, occupational
therapy, respiratory therapy,all of that.
They go through all of thesethings and, at least the last
time I looked at the research, alot of the research doesn't
(16:07):
really understand why somepeople get long COVID and others
don't, because you also havepeople who have diabetes or has
been treated for cancer, thingslike that heart failure, and
they don't get COVID, or if theyget it, they get mild symptoms
and they're done.
The only caveat that peoplethink is that, since more and
(16:30):
more people in the world havegotten vaccinated and boosted,
and because, even though thevariants have changed the effect
of the boosters, even thoughthey change them, they're still
effective in countering, allthey're really trying to do is
to neutralize what the virus cando in the human host.
(16:53):
That's all of them.
David Liss (16:55):
Dr Kennedy, as a doctor, have you had people come
in as patients that didn'tbelieve it was real or didn't
believe in getting vaccines orthings like that?
Sure, how do you deal with that?
Or what do you say?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (17:13):
things like that.
How do you deal with that?
Or what do you say?
Well, you tell them.
So, most of the people whodon't believe it not that they
don't believe it's real, theybelieve it's an infection.
For sure It's kind of hardwhen the entire world is being
affected by it for you to notbelieve that it exists.
But what they'll say is thereare a lot of people who've just
been anti-vaxxers that thinkthat being vaccinated has caused
(17:34):
problems.
Vaccination is essentially amedication and, like any
medication that has ever beengiven to humans, even if over
the counter , it has thepotential to cause harm to
somebody.
The problem is you can't reallypredict who it's going to.
You kind of know based onstudies.
(17:56):
So, with all those people theyhad in the trial before they
initially released the Pfizer,the Moderna vaccines, was that
they found that okay, yeah,there were a few people, but the
percentage was less than 1% whohad bad reactions to the
vaccine.
(18:16):
Well, those people, you tellthem.
And I've had people who've hadfamily members who've gotten
COVID.
Remember I had a gentleman whohad gone to visit his daughter
in another got and COVID.
(18:36):
When he got back, washospitalized on a respirator and
then when he finally clearedand returned.
He had to get clearance to goback to work.
So, he came in to see me.
We start talking about gettingvaccinated.
Well, there was no reason tovaccinate him immediately
because his body had already,with all of the infection that
(19:00):
he had, the immune system hadalready produced.
But the recommendation was thatin six months, three months,
you should get vaccinated.
His argument was why should Iget vaccinated now?
I've already had it.
And I said Well, the problem isyou get this again and you've
(19:20):
already had a near-termexperience being on a
respiratory.
Why do you want it to happenagain?
And he said I'll take my chance.
David Liss (19:31):
I just don't want it to happen again.
And he said I'll take my chance.
I just don't understand that.
What's that line?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (19:36):
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt,
that's just I hope that you havepeople out there spewing that
it's not real, it's poison.
They're trying to put chipsinside of you and all this other
kind of nonsense.
They're spewing that it's notreal, it's poison.
They're trying to put chipsinside of you and all this other
kind of nonsense.
So, when you have thathappening and again people just
(20:01):
sometimes are looking for areason not to do something If
you give them an ethnic reason,they're good.
Ketil Hviding (20:09):
In the beginning it was rolled out as an
emergency measure, but thatchanged, so I could have some
sympathy with people who weresomewhat afraid because it was
an emergency measure, but sincethen there's lot a more
observations.
Oh yeah, so if you'reanti-vaxxer, of course it's an
easy thing, but then I think,unfortunately, some people have
(20:32):
become anti-vaxxers after this.
Very true.
David Liss (20:37):
Is COVID a crisis now?
Because I feel like people justput it away and they're done
with it for the most part, likeif I go to a gym, you don't
really need to wipe up afteryourself.
Or if you go, what's good?
If I go to a gym, you don'treally need to wipe up after
yourself.
Or if you go to a Well, I mean,it seems like people are kind
of half, but in many places yougo it's like it doesn't exist,
(20:58):
it's like it's gone.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (21:00):
Well, but again, first of all, it's not
gone, and any viral infectionsort of decides to express
itself to the world.
It never really leaves.
It will have quiet moments, butthe problem is we only react to
(21:21):
it when it a crisis.
It's not as much a crisis as itwas in 2020 and 2021, for sure,
but a lot of that has to dowith the fact that a large
percentage of the world has beenvaccinated.
A large percentage of the worldhas changed their hygiene
(21:43):
behavior, you know, and sotherefore, you've gotten away
from it being a crisis, but it'ssomething that is still here
why they continue to recommendthe vaccine?
Partly because the viruscontinues to change its stripes.
Ketil Hviding (22:06):
But if someone says that, oh, it's just like
the flu I mean, in flu you needa vaccine what would be your
response?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (22:17):
Well, the only time the flu killed as many
people as this did was in 1980.
That was before we had anyvaccine.
Since we've had a vaccineagainst the flu, and they've
been doing a good enough job ofbeing able to predict the newer
strains of flu that come eachyear.
(22:41):
The other thing is flu hasnever been, for the most part, a
year-round infection.
Covid is a year-round infection.
You can get it anytime,anywhere in any part of the year
.
It doesn't have to be flu.
It's mostly a winter, earlyspring infection.
Ketil Hviding (23:02):
But do we have in terms of data for the situation
now and comparing flu anddeaths to COVID?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (23:12):
Well, you mean in terms?
Ketil Hviding (23:13):
well, yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly how
to compare it, but I would thinkthat it's the probability.
If you're not, well, I don'tknow, I mean it basically that
makes sense.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (23:26):
The death toll from flu each year, for the
most part, has been consistentover the years.
It hasn't changed very much.
We're nowhere where we were,where a million people were
dying.
Sure, like it was at its height.
Yeah, was at its height.
(23:47):
It's just that when this is themost and the best way for me, I
look at it, it is still themost contagious thing the
world's ever seen.
And so, yes, the flu iscontagious, but not everybody
who gets exposed to the flu willget it.
(24:08):
Well, same thing with COVID.
The problem is that, whereas fluhas predominantly been an upper
respiratory to deep respiratoryproblem, covid, basically
because of what it does.
It attacks the body.
It increases clottingmechanisms, which normally is
(24:28):
not a good thing.
In other parts of the body, itincreases clotting mechanisms,
which normally is not a goodthing, in other parts of the
body, certain parts of the body,so it.
And that's why, when youmentioned earlier, someone could
have had liver failure.
They had someone who startedpassing blood through their
stool.
You could have had someonecoughing up blood.
(24:49):
You could have had someone whohad a stroke, someone having a
heart attack, someone's kidneyfailing, the pancreas being down
.
All of this can occur withCOVID.
You don't see that with the flu.
You just don't see that withthe flu.
Ketil Hviding (25:08):
And then long COVID as well, which we don't
know so much about.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (25:12):
You know most people that with the flu
and then long COVID as well,which we don't know so much
about, you won't see.
You know most people who getthe flu.
They'll be sick for a period oftime but they're going to
recover, they're going torecover, and they're done.
David Liss (25:24):
Is COVID?
Unusual in that there's a longCOVID.
There's no long flu necessarily, is there?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (25:28):
First, I've heard of it, there's no long
flu necessarily, is there?
First, I've heard of it thatthere's been a thing that has
legs that continue.
And look at it, those peoplehave long COVID.
If you test them, there may notbe any evidence that the COVID
is positive unless you do reallyspecific tests.
David Liss (25:48):
When I was going through the worst of it.
They didn't want to test me.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (25:57):
They expected you to be positive.
We knew that in the verybeginning.
We had people who would testpositive for COVID, have no
symptoms at all and staypositive for six months.
We had people who werecompletely asymptomatic, and
they only tested because asignificant other who they live
(26:19):
with tested positive and hadsymptoms.
So, they tested.
But we know that the body'sability to sort of wash it all
out so that you get a negativetest can be three to six months.
Aussie Mike James (26:33):
Let me ask you guys I mean, you've all had
it and, Dave, you sound likeyou've had it very badly what's
the major difference you foundwith COVID and flu, just in
terms of the visceral symptoms?
What made it?
David Liss (26:46):
Well, for me personally, it was this really
severe cough.
I mean I was in finally gettingsix-pack abs in my life, but it
was from coughing, I mean thatwas.
The only thing that upset meabout getting better from the
cough is that I thought mysix-pack is going to go away.
I've never experienced a coughlike that.
I've never experienced anillness that lingered for an
(27:08):
indeterminate, unpredictableperiod of time.
You know, I wasn't sure how toapproach work, on the sense of
going into the office or justbecause the cough was so bad.
I finally did go back but Ifound a way to isolate myself.
And it was kind of crazy too,because the same organizations
that were like not lettingpeople come in now was an
(27:31):
employment issue because youwanted to go out, because I
didn't know how to work with thecough that I had.
What?
Aussie Mike James (27:39):
What about you, Dr.
K, what was the difference youfeel between that and flu?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (27:44):
the two times I've had the flu in my
life.
I would acutely ill for a week,and I had all the typical I had
a cough, I had a runny nose, Ihad a headache, I was nauseated,
I had a fever, I had body achesand chills.
My whole body hurt.
(28:05):
I couldn't do anything for aweek but then when it stopped,
it stopped and a week, a day ortwo after, but I got back to
normal, whereas the first time Ihad COVID after I had no longer
had the cough, no longer hadthe aches and pains and things
(28:27):
like that, I was just tired fora month, I didn't have the level
of energy that I normally hadand just doing normal things
wore me out.
And also, covid was the firsttime I, as a clinician, I'd seen
people get a cold, and I'm surethere are other conditions that
do it but get a cold.
(28:48):
And I'm sure there are otherconditions that do it but get a
symptom.
They're only symptoms that Ican't feel anything anymore and
I can't taste.
I've seen that before, unlessyou have a specific sort of
thing, and it would linger forthe longest period of time.
So, it was odd to see that andagain, once again, something
(29:10):
I've not seen and that's thething about COVID is that,
because it affects the entirebody, any symptom, and it's why
when you go and look up symptomsof COVID, they give you the
sort of common sort of things.
But you could list a hundredand all be accurate Because
(29:31):
somebody could get it.
Aussie Mike James (29:34):
What about you, Kettle?
What's the difference you foundbetween COVID and the common
flu or cold?
Ketil Hviding (29:41):
I mean I didn't get very sick.
You know, when I had the flu,the fever was much higher and
also, I had the experience thatit was acute and then it goes
away.
Here it's, I mean it was morenot that clear what was really
going but , I did feelsomething and they kind of took
(30:01):
probably longer to go away.
I mean it's also I, I don'tknow, maybe I have some effects
of something.
I mean there's this doubt,because you also read about
things that it affects your bodyin a different way.
That's why I'm mostly concernedabout the long COVID.
I know people who lost theirmale and after, I think, a year,
(30:23):
still not there.
Aussie Mike James (30:26):
Rich, I wonder if you could comment on
this case.
It's got a bit of popular mediaattention when we talk about
being totally reclusive, as somepeople were and haven't gotten
over that.
It's still like that.
There was the case of HowardStoon.
They say he's almost a totalrecluse, lives in his huge
apartment in New York City, veryrarely gets out, but he got
(30:48):
COVID.
Very rarely gets out, but hegot covered.
Now the common theory for usnon-medical people is to say,
well, he didn't build up anynatural immunities because he's
staying inside the whole time.
Could you comment on that?
Is that any truth in that?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (31:00):
oh yeah, that's true you don't expose
their, your immune system won'tfeel a threat, so it won't try
to develop things that itdoesn't need to.
Now, that being said, remember,this is an airborne organism,
so he may not go out of hisapartment, but there are people
(31:22):
who may walk on the floor thathe lives on.
Yeah, there may be people whodeliver his meal on.
There may be people who deliverhis meal.
There may be people who pick uphis laundry and take his
laundry those things people arebreathing and so the air
circulates there.
His wife leads a normal life,so I guess that could be for
(31:46):
them.
So, everybody.
The issue is we're all going toget exposed.
The issue is will you havesymptoms?
If you're unlucky, you'll havesymptoms.
If you're really unlucky,you'll end up in the hospital.
Aussie Mike James (32:01):
I think it was Baba Booey's fault.
Myself I blame Baba Booey if Iwere Harold, like he always does
.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (32:10):
Well, like he always does, I have friends
who, when you know how, as weloosen the things up and we're
getting to some degree of normalwhere we can go out and we can
get together again in publicplaces, I have friends who
wouldn't do so.
For instance, I have fourfriends that I've known since
1970.
And we quarterly used to gettogether to have dinner, things
(32:36):
like that, all that kind ofstuff.
Well, one of them, he wouldn'tgo out and if he went anywhere,
he'd wear a mask.
Even if he was around otherpeople, he'd sit as far away
from everybody as he could.
He would text us his joke.
You know, we'd be sitting onthe other side of the restaurant
(32:58):
His joke.
Well, for some people and somepeople it's okay.
I'm afraid I don't want to getsick, I don't want to have to
deal with and we've all beentouched by somebody we know
who've gotten COVID and gottenit bad enough that we saw them
(33:20):
suffering.
Even if we weren't with them,we heard about it, we'd call
them, we'd see them on Zoom,we'd see them on a video.
And you know, when you seethose things, those things take
heart.
You feel that, and so humannature is protect myself.
You know how do I protectmyself?
So, for some people they'll dothe extremes and go okay, you
(33:44):
know me and the planet, okay,I'll come out if I absolutely
have to, but I'll, you know, I'mgoing to wear a glove, I'm
going to have a mask on, I'mwearing a hat.
You know my sleeves I neverwear short sleeves All the
little things for fear of thathappening.
(34:05):
When I first got covid the firsttime I got covid, because I'm
living with other people I livedin the basement, and I got all
my food.
You know they would knock onthe door and say your meal
meal's ready.
Wait till I leave.
They closed the door and I goup.
That's to ship my meal.
So, I was put in a basement aswell, you know.
(34:27):
That's why I say I never wantto hear the word mental again
Lost her really quickly.
Aussie Mike James (34:37):
One of my good colleagues at the World
Bank, a psychologist, said it'salso had the effect beyond the
physical and contributed to theloneliness epidemic out there
because people who had apredisposition, who would
probably go home and live theirown life, were led to the
loneliness instance.
It's exacerbated that becauseit's given them now more of a
(34:59):
fear of even going out.
Have you guys experienced thatYou'd seen people become more
likely?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's a real problem in societybecause you think you'll just
never hear from these folks.
Ketil Hviding (35:13):
I haven't experienced it that much myself,
but maybe that's also becauseof the people I'm surrounded by,
but I've been particularlyconcerned about what we've seen
with children and lost years ofschooling.
One thing that's COVID isdifferent from some of the other
illnesses we talk about is howit affects people on the age
spectrum, so younger are lesslikely, and so maybe there was
(35:39):
some overreaction when it cameto children and youth, because
also the psychological impacthas been large.
David Liss (35:46):
There was a man I was talking with, and he was a
counselor in a high school andhe was talking about how you had
these kids that were all of asudden they're in high school
and when they left they were inhigh school, and when they left
they were in elementary schoolor something like that.
Because two years at home andall this time behind the screen
(36:07):
and then having to readjust andnot being able to just shut
something off when you're tryingto be in front of it and just
socialization.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (36:15):
Yeah.
David Liss (36:16):
Yeah exactly.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (36:18):
Yeah, I think that the children,
particularly the children underthe age of 10, they might suffer
a little bit more, becausethose are formative years where
you're learning socialization,how to interact with people, how
to engage yourself in theschool world, in the family
world, been in the school world,in the family world, learning
(36:43):
the sort of right from wrongkind of thing, whereas now you
give them a laptop and you givethem a computer or an iPad and
you say basically, look, this ishow we're going to communicate
with you.
And there are some of us who,as we grow up, we're more
comfortable being by ourselves.
Yes, for people who are morecomfortable, they need to be in
(37:03):
the crowd, they need to be inthe midst.
You lost that, so you literallyput an entire generation of
kids in this environment wheregetting used to your
communication is a screen.
David Liss (37:18):
Yeah, I mean I have friends and their kids have no
close friends in the physicalworld.
Their friends are all virtualfrom the game they play.
They could be in Kenya, Canadaor Kentucky and but they don't
have anyone.
They could go write a bike andget a sandwich with.
Yeah.
Aussie Mike James (37:39):
Which turned back to the vaccines a little
bit, the often quoted misgivingsof people who don't like
vaccines.
They say that there's a highincidence of myocarditis.
Could you comment on that fromthe vaccine?
Well, what is myocarditis?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (37:53):
It's inflammation of the heart muscle
, and so, first and foremost, Ialways say it depends on who's
making the statement Correct.
So, first and foremost, Ialways say it depends on who's
making the statement.
So, by definition, any sideeffect of anything is high if
you happen to be the individualor individuals who get it.
But if you know and I alwayssay, think of it from the
(38:13):
perspective they gave out 70 to100 million people got
vaccinated about 70 to 100million people got vaccinated in
the US, and maybe less than 1%of people got myocarditis.
So, you need to sort of labelit as the number kind of thing.
But the way we look at drugs andtheir safety profile, that it
(38:37):
can't be something that givessuch significant side effects
and I don't know the actualnumbers that they're talking
about but it's such a uniquething that they'll pull it off
the market if it's causing thatmany side effects, particularly
if the side effect is leading todeath.
They'll pull it off the marketin a heartbeat, leading to death
(39:02):
.
They'll pull it off the marketin a heartbeat.
But there are people who willtake aspirin or Tylenol and have
bleeding from taking that thanthe people who are taking this
vaccine, and you're sorry forthe people who do get the side
effects, but that's the thing isyou can't make one chemical
that is going to be suitable forthe entire global population,
(39:24):
because there's just enoughdifferences in all of us that
what one person might react toothers may not.
Aussie Mike James (39:33):
When we're talking about the children and
infants Rich and again.
It's purely anecdotal, but Ithink a lot of people might have
experienced this.
I had my little buddy Sammy,who you've both met.
He was only under two years ofage, and he fell asleep on my
shoulder for about an hour oneday.
The next day he got diagnosedhe had infant COVID.
I got absolutely nothingBecause I was vaccinated or
(39:54):
because his little system justcouldn't cope.
I had no idea.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (40:01):
It probably had something to do with you
being vaccinated for sure, right, and also for the most part
young kids, unless they hadagain certain health condition
if they got covid and you'veheard this again and again and
again.
My nephew he was eight at thetime he got COVID and he was
(40:26):
sick for a day and it was fineafter that.
But everybody his mother, hisfather, his grandmother, his
auntie, everybody else was sickfor three weeks and so they'd
all been vaccinated.
So, you're going to find casesthat don't mean most kids have
(40:50):
done well they have.
You know, the type 1 diabeticmight have a problem.
An asthmatic child might have aproblem.
Anyone with any of these blooddisorders like leukemia and
things like that.
They're more likely to have aproblem.
Anyone with any immunedeficiency.
(41:12):
You know the number of peoplewith HIV.
Percentage-wise there are morepeople maybe getting COVID and
their symptoms might last alittle longer, but they've
recovered and again it goes back.
This really still goes back.
What is the general basicwellness of the individual?
David Liss (41:36):
What do you think the world is going to be like
going forward?
Or how should we think aboutCOVID in the next year, two
years?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (41:43):
World Health Organization is that if
people have not been vaccinatedfor more than six months, they
(42:04):
probably should go and get abooster, because there are two
new variants out now.
One is E5 something and theother one is XTEC-B1.something.
They have caused mild symptoms,and it was in an accelerated
(42:25):
phase during the winter monthsDecember, January, February but
less so now, and so there's anexpectation that there'll be a
new variant soon, and so youwant to get a booster shot in
order to do that.
And again, it goes back tocommon sense General hand
(42:48):
hygiene, washing your hands,covering your mouth when you
cough or sneeze, or stayinghydrated, being as fit as you
can be, eating healthy all ofthese things.
This is for any infection, butit's .undefined for a cold
Aussie Mike James (43:06):
Dr.
K, You would recommend thebooster shot that's out there
now, even fully.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (43:10):
Yeah, you would recommend it well, what
fully vaccinated to me onlymeans that you've probably been
more than six months than mostpeople have gotten, so therefore
they expect that the strengthand the protection of the
vaccine starts to wane after sixmonths.
Aussie Mike James (43:30):
Okay, A booster definitely.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (43:33):
And I would say those of us who've been
with it kind of it is in theirbest interest to get a booster.
Yeah, okay, you already knowhow bad it could be for you and
how bad it was For me clinically, having seen my patients in the
(43:54):
hospital and I always saythey'd have shown what it looked
like for a patient to be on arespirator in a hospital with
COVID, unlike anything I'd everseen and we might not have had
the resistance that we had if wejust showed that.
Aussie Mike James (44:15):
So, this has been a great discussion.
We have covered all aspects anda lot of the anecdotes that I'm
sure a lot of our listenershave encountered.
Dr.
K, I guess, just to sum up,what would be your two or three
or four takeaways do you havefor our listeners regarding
Covid?
What will the future be likefor us living with Covid?
What are the best practices?
Dr. Richard Kennedy (44:37):
Well, I would say COVID is here to stay.
It's not going anywhere.
So, part of it is what can wedo with individuals and a
society in a world to mitigateit to the best of our ability?
One is getting vaccineappropriately, so doing
appropriate things.
(44:57):
Don't put yourself at risk.
In other words, if you don'tfeel well, stay home, stay safe.
So, we should not want toinfect others because, again it
is very contagious and we knowthat not everybody who's going
to be exposed is going to get it.
They may be the person to passit on to somebody who can't
(45:21):
fight it.
Well, you're not vaccinated andmakes it easier for that to
happen.
And the other important pointis most of the hospitalization
today and most of the cases ofthe more significant COVID
infections are still in peopleover sixty, or those with
(45:43):
concomitant health issues Asthmalike diabetes, heart disease,
things like that, more immunedeficiencies.
Those people are more at risk,not to say that the perfectly
healthy person can't get itbecause they do.
Aussie Mike James (46:02):
Yeah, no question about it and then
you're, of course you'rementioned hand hygiene and
general hygiene and exercisefitness or exercise water more
water, water okay, all right,I'll remember when I'm on my
fifth beer tonight.
There's water and beer.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (46:21):
There is, there is.
There's no water only.
Aussie Mike James (46:27):
All right.
Well, on that note, thanks guys.
It was great.
Thanks very much to my co-host,Dr.
Richard Kennedy, Ketil Hvidingand David Liss.
Thank you for joining usWellness Musketeers.
(46:50):
Tune in for upcoming episodesto gain the tools to improve
your health, work performanceand live with a greater
understanding of the world weexperience together.
Please subscribe, give us afive-star review, and share this
recording with your family andfriends.
You can make a contributionthrough a link provided in
program notes.
To allow this podcast to grow,let us know what you need to
(47:12):
learn to help you live your bestlife.
Send your questions and ideasfor future episodes to David
Liss at Davidmliss@gmail.
com.
Thank you very much, folks, andhave a wonderful day.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.