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March 19, 2025 58 mins

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When Dr. Richard Kennedy took just three bites of a marijuana brownie years ago, he wasn't prepared for ceramic lions jumping across coffee tables and onto his lap. This vivid hallucination marked his first and last cannabis experience—but offers the perfect entry point into our comprehensive exploration of marijuana's complex role in modern society.

The Wellness Musketeers gather medical expert Dr. Kennedy, fitness expert and host "Aussie" Mike James, economist Kettle Hviding and wellness consultant Dave Liss examine cannabis through multiple lenses, creating a 360-degree view that challenges both prohibitionist fearmongering and uncritical enthusiasm. Each contributor shares personal experiences (or lack thereof) with marijuana, setting a tone of honesty that carries throughout this nuanced discussion.

We explore marijuana's medical applications, where evidence shows clear benefits for chemotherapy-induced nausea and specific pediatric seizure disorders, while other uses remain promising but less definitively proven. Dr. Kennedy explains the critical distinction between THC and CBD components and highlights how standardization issues complicate both research and patient experiences. The conversation doesn't shy away from concerns about youth marijuana use, cognitive effects, and the challenges of conducting rigorous scientific studies on a substance that remains federally prohibited.

The economic dimensions prove equally fascinating, as our panel unpacks how legalization has affected state revenues, created banking complications, and established a competitive but still-evolving marketplace. From security guards at cash-only dispensaries to the complications of marijuana tourism, the discussion highlights how policy decisions ripple through communities in unexpected ways.

Whether you're considering marijuana for medical purposes, curious about its economic impact, or simply wanting to understand this evolving aspect of our culture, this episode delivers thoughtful analysis without agenda or oversimplification. Join us for this enlightening conversation that respects your intelligence while expanding your understanding of a plant that's simultaneously ancient and at the cutting edge of social change.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (00:06):
I was a youngster adult, but a youngster
still.
My friends and I werecelebrating a birthday and we
were on our way to a party butbefore we did, his girlfriend
made us some brownies whichhappened to have some marijuana
in it.
We're sitting in the sort ofliving room.

(00:27):
There's a little coffee tablein there and on the coffee table
there's these ceramic figures,there's elephants, there's
giraffes, lions and tigers.
I'd say I must have taken threebites of that brownie but all
of a sudden those figuresstarted moving and, you know,

(00:48):
the lion, literally in my view,jumped across that little coffee
table onto my lap.
That was my first and lastexposure to my life.

"Aussie" Mike James (01:10):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness
Musketeers podcast, where wetackle complex health issues
from multiple angles.
I'm your host, aussie MikeJames, and today we're diving
into a topic that's beenlighting up conversations across
the globe marijuana use.
In this episode, we're bringingyou a comprehensive look at
cannabis through the lenses ofhealth, fitness, addiction and
economics.
Our team of musketeers is readyto cut through the smoke and

(01:31):
bring you clarity.
Dr Richard Kennedy will sharehis medical insights on
marijuana's effects on the bodyand mind, including the
potential therapeutic uses andhealth risks.
Welcome, dr K Good to see youguys.
Okay, david Lith and I will beexploring how cannabis use
intersects with fitness andoverall wellness strategies.

(01:51):
Welcome, dave.
Hello and, last but not least,our economist, kettle Heiding,
will break down the financialand societal impacts of
marijuana legalization andcommercialization.
Welcome, kettle.

Ketil Hviding (02:06):
Okay, you always get my name wrong.
That's okay, you're Australian.
You see things from the otherside of the world, I know, but
that should be a part of thisfantastic, fantastic,
clear-sighted panel.

"Aussie" Mike James (02:19):
Okay, on that note, before we think
you're curious about the medicalapplications of cannabis,
concerned about its potentialfor abuse or interested in its
economic implications, thisepisode promises to deliver a
well-rounded perspective on thiscomplex plant.
If you find value in ourdiscussions, please take a
moment to subscribe, share andleave a review.

(02:42):
It helps us reach more people.
So let's spark up thisdiscussion and explore the
multifaceted world of marijuanause, and I thought today panel
with the thought of fulldisclosure.
Here we might just reflect alittle on each of our use or
non-use of marijuana.
We'll start with you, dr K.

(03:02):
What's your experience withmarijuana?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (03:04):
You would start with me.
Well, way back when, beforetime, when I was a youngster
adult, but a youngster still wewere, my friends and I were
celebrating a birthday and wewere on our way to a party, but

(03:25):
before we did, his girlfriendmade us some brownies which
happened to have some marijuanain it, and so I'm going to set
the table.
This is we're sitting in thesort of living room.
There's a little coffee tablein there and on the coffee table
there's these ceramic figures,there's elephants, there's

(03:47):
giraffes, lions and tigers, andI'd say I'd say I must have
taken three bites of that brownit was delicious, by the way but
all of a sudden those figuresstarted moving and, and you know
, the lion, literally, in myview, jumped across that little

(04:09):
coffee table onto my lap.
That was my first and lastexposure to marijuana.

"Aussie" Mike James (04:19):
So scary.
But I'm guessing you've treatedpeople with marijuana who've
used marijuana quite a bit overthe years, over the years yeah.
What about you, Kettle?

Ketil Hviding (04:29):
Yeah, I mean I don't have these fantastic
stories really, but I tried alittle bit in my youth as well,
not very effective, but Iremember we were stopped for
drunk driving but they failedthe test for marijuana as well
back in Norway.
So I think that was kind ofinteresting.
And then since then no illegalactivity.

(04:50):
But once it's become legal, ofcourse I would have to try it.
So I've been trying a littleedibles and you know I tried
sometimes a little bit too muchand you know you feel like
you're amongst friends, you'rethere, but you're not there, and
that can be quite uncomfortable.
That's pretty much myexperience.
I used it a little bit to helpsleep.

(05:11):
It's a very low effect, lowdosage, but, you know, not
anything particular to writehome about.

"Aussie" Mike James (05:18):
Okay, what about you, david?

Dave Liss (05:19):
Yeah, I mean I've smoked occasionally over time,
done edibles occasionally overtime.
One time I took something, justlike Kettle said, I thought,
okay, I'll just take a littlebit of an edible and I'll go to
sleep, and I took it around 9,and the next morning I taught a
boxing class at 6.
And then midway through theboxing class I realized I was

(05:40):
still stoned.
I didn't understand thedifference between a round and
the break from the round.
I've had other experiences withedibles that were I thought I'd
left and gone to another planetin another country or something
.
It was just.
It was a frightening disaster.
But I repeated my mistake onceor twice.
But I think it should beavailable for people.

(06:01):
But you know, you gotta letyour conscience be your guide or
something.

"Aussie" Mike James (06:09):
Well, listeners, now for something
completely different.
My experience with it is zerozilch.
I've never had a smoke or anedible, and not because I'm some
great moralist, but I thinkbecause I was brought up in
Australia in the 70s and 80s.
We were very much a pub cultureand it just wasn't part of our
lexicon or our way of life.
For most of the group I hangaround with and alcohol was very

(06:32):
much a big, mind-alteringsubstance, so there was no need
for marijuana.
But we had the occasionalpeople who used it.
But I never experienced it.
But I think the biggest thingthat stopped me from using it on
a deeper level was the smokingaspect, because my father passed
away from smoking normalcigarettes too many of them.

(06:53):
He got emphysema, and my bestfriend's father the same thing,
another heavy smoker.
And if you've seen emphysema,that's not a good thing to die
from and so that's always put meoff from smoking any aspect of
smoking.
So it's always held it back.
But I've got an open mind.
I've dealt with people who'veused it athletes, people in the
Parkinson's area and so forth.

(07:13):
So I have an open mind about it.
But I've just got zeroexperience using it.
So that's our backgrounds,isn't it listeners.
So on to the actual discussion.
Just to start it off, kick thisoff with our first little
statement here Is marijuana amiracle cure or a dangerous drug
?
What's your views?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (07:32):
on that guys.
Dr K, I don't think anything'sa miracle cure.
Marijuana falls into thatgeneral category.
I don't.
You know, like anything else,anything in excess tends to be
more of a problem than it tendsto be a solution or benefit.
So I don't particularly thinkthat marijuana has good points

(07:55):
in the right circumstances forthe right people, but it's not
necessarily for everyone.

Ketil Hviding (08:01):
Maybe I can.
I mean Dr Kennedy, of course,of course is the expert.
But I'm pretty concerned aboutwhat you see in the industry,
and it's probably being pushedby the competition in the
industry as well.
They're putting forward, quiteoften, claims, substantiated
claims, about the benefits ofdifferent marijuana products and

(08:23):
uh, you, and that's notregulated in any way.
I mean, it's regulated in a way.
They are not allowed to do it.
But then you know, if it is acompetitive industry with a lot
of actors, it's very easy.
They put it out there and getclamped down and then they put
it back again.
So that's a concern.

"Aussie" Mike James (08:39):
Yeah, that speaks to our second question, I
guess, about the healthbenefits, and I can relate what
you're talking about there,kettle.
I think the popular presssometimes makes it a blanket
cure for everything withheadlines.
For a while they did that withone particular Parkinson's
patient whose tremors decreasedmarkedly when he took marijuana.

(09:00):
But the doctors and specialistssome of the best in the world
that I've spoken with at variousconferences have said that that
may work for that person, butit's not a blanket cure by any
means.
So these blanket sort ofstatements that it's a cure for
everything have got to be takenwith a little bit of balance, I
think.
So what would be the benefitsof taking marijuana Dr K?

(09:25):
What are the purported benefitsof taking marijuana Dr K?
What are the purported benefitsof it medically?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (09:35):
So medically.
So again we need to go back towhy would people, from a medical
standpoint, want to takemarijuana?
And there are many reasons whypeople would consider it.
And the basic issue is that themost common reason people
initially medically takemarijuana is for pain, to
relieve pain, to relieve spasm.

(09:55):
And so in the medical communityso, for instance, as you
mentioned earlier, parkinson'spatients or people who get
multiple sclerosis and end upwith spasticity, which means
they have periods where they'rereally stiff and can't sort of
move forward really well whatthey found and again big issue

(10:16):
is there aren't enough studiesthat have been done that where
you can give a person marijuanawho happens to have Parkinson's
or happens to have arthritis orhappens to have, you know, or
their ligament in their knee orsomething.

(10:38):
Because there aren't reallygood studies right now.
They're doing more and most ofthem are observational studies.
You give a person it and thedilemma is what works best?
Does smoking marijuana give thebenefit as well as a gummy or

(11:04):
an edible wood?
The only true studies where theyreally studied it clearly so
far, to my knowledge, has beenfor cancer, chemotherapy, the
results of chemotherapy.
One of the main side effects isnausea and vomiting, and what
they found was when they gavepeople marijuana and pretty much

(11:27):
all the formulations, smokingedibles, even tinctures that you
can rub on the skin or oils,the reduction in nausea and
vomiting was real to thosepatients, but like anything else
, the longer they used it.
But like anything else, thelonger they used it, the less

(11:47):
the benefit.
Now they've done somecomparable studies where they've
taken marijuana and given it toa group of patients who have
nausea and vomiting afterchemotherapy, and then they've
given it and then they've takenthe prescription drugs to give
them and compared the two to seewhich one got the most benefit

(12:07):
or relief of those symptoms.
Hard to say, partly because itwasn't a standardized way that
they got it, because they usepeople who went to their own
medicinal clinic and got theirtype of marijuana and one
medicinal clinic is not the sameas the next uh their type of
marijuana and one medicinalclinic is not the same as the

(12:29):
next.
The percentage of the differentcannabis and thc I, hydro
cannabinoid, cannabidor diol cannever pronounce it.
That's why we call it thc isthe one that has the more
euphoric, high sensation,relaxing sensation, whereas the
CBD or cannabinoid are the onesthat can have a benefit in

(12:52):
reducing things like anxiety.
So they have found that peoplewho take it to relieve
depression it has found benefitanxiety.
What about sleep?
Oh sorry, sleep as well.
But what the belief is is that,first of all, when it's people
who are using it for the veryfirst time, who aren't frequent

(13:14):
users, they tend to get much ofthose benefits initially.
But, like anything else, if youkeep using it, sometimes the
beneficial effect wears off, andit's some.
You actually get more of theeffect that you were trying to
prevent.
Therefore, people sleep nowinstead of it being relaxing.

(13:35):
Because if you think of whathappens when people get the
marijuana the THC portion of itit makes them feel relaxed, it
makes them feel calm, it makesthem feel calm, it makes them
feel comfortable.
So initially that makes sensethat the person next will be
able to sleep better, but itdoesn't.
You know, they haven't donestudies to compare.

(13:56):
Well, how is it in the mostimportant part of sleep, which
is REM sleep?
We don't, we don't really know.
At least I've not seen anything.
So, continuing to do studies totry and Do you think it's?
I mean, it must be verydifficult.

Dave Liss (14:12):
Sorry.
Do you think it's a good ideathat all these states are
legalizing marijuana formedicinal purposes?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (14:18):
I think it's Well.
The dilemma is that you havestates that are legalizing it,
but according to the federalgovernment it's still illegal
and that creates.
Now they're creating laws to dothat, but at the same time, we
don't have enough informationright now to say that it's you
know.
The only thing that it's beenproven really well is nausea and

(14:43):
vomiting from cancerchemotherapy.
It must be very difficult.

Ketil Hviding (14:47):
As you know, the gold standard for medical
testing is the double-blindrandom test.
So I mean, as long as you feelthe THC, then you know that
you've got it.
You know, if you have a verysmall dosage, maybe then you can
kind of have a placebo and theydon't know whether they get the
placebo or not, and then youcan actually got it.
If you have a very small dosagemaybe, then you can have a
placebo and they don't knowwhether they get the placebo or
not, and then you can actuallydo it.

(15:09):
So maybe they've done that forcancer patients, because you
need that in order to get theFDA approved.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (15:20):
Dr, there are two pediatric seizure
disorders that happen only inthe pediatric population, where
they found that marijuana, butspecifically two types of drugs
that they have approved and Icannot remember the name of them
right now.
But those two marijuana-typedrugs have been beneficial in

(15:41):
preventing seizures in thosechildren, but it hasn't been
effective in people who haveother seizures, like most adults
who have seizures, but in thatpediatric age group.
Yes, okay.

"Aussie" Mike James (15:53):
Dr K, when you talk about the calming
effect, I guess anecdotally fromwhat I've seen, people who have
rather aggressive or sometimesviolent dispositions, I've seen
good effects on those sort ofpeople because it sort of brings
them down a little.
In popular culture.
We've got Mike Tyson, I think,who sold marijuana now I believe
, but I think that's had a goodeffect on him, from afar at

(16:15):
least, and people I've knownwho've had that sort of
hyper-stroke violent disposition.
That's certainly helped themcalm down.
Is it something they would usein a psychological setting?
A psychiatrist would theyprescribe that, or is that still
an unknown?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (16:30):
I'm sure there are people who would be
willing to try it if they havefailed at everything else.
And again, this goes back tohow marijuana, particularly the
THC portion of it, works in thebrain.
There are receptors in thebrain for cannabinoids and so

(16:50):
what happens is and the goodexample is the person like you
sort of described who's hyperanxious, and those people, if
you give them marijuana, whytheir anxiety goes down, why
they calm themselves down, isbecause it affects the release
of dopamine into the system,which then makes people calm

(17:12):
down.
You know, same token for peoplewhere they try to get depressed
, who they give marijuana to,because the other side of
marijuana is that it makes youfeel good.
It makes you feel this releaseof I'm, I'm cool, I'm feeling
relaxed and everything else putspeople in a good mood.

(17:33):
Same thing with the release of,and the effects of, serotonin
and dopamine in the breath.
So from that perspective, itdoes that the dilemma is that
one medical medicinal marijuanasite versus another, the
dosaging and everything may bevery different.

Dave Liss (17:55):
Okay.
Is it like you're saying before, though, where the effects
diminish over time, theperceived benefits?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (18:03):
Well, that's one of the things that
they found is that the longeryou use it, what they found is
people's memory decreases.
Their ability to concentrateinto focus decreases, so
indirectly.
How does that affect an adultdown the road?
You know, one day they're thislevel of IQ and they've said

(18:23):
that people's iqs whochronically use marijuana will
decrease.
Now I've had friends who toldme I'm definitely not as smart
as I was, but I can't stoptaking the marijuana really well
and so, and so I, you know Ialways say well, why don't you
stop it for a while and see ifyou get smart again?

Ketil Hviding (18:43):
like, like when I took it and I had a discussion
and I couldn't really rememberwhat the other person had said.
That's not long-term use, butit shows a little bit of the
lack of concentration that youcan get and it was actually
quite powerful I, I thought youknow, like having al, you know,

(19:04):
like having Alzheimer's.

Dave Liss (19:06):
But it's funny because when you're with a group
of people everyone's stoned youkind of feel like you're being
really profound and thoughtfulwhen you're talking with other
people.

Ketil Hviding (19:16):
I haven't had that, but I've seen people in
that environment.
They look completely silly.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (19:21):
I have a friend and her sister smokes
every single day and that andher family says that she's, um,
she's an easier person to bearound, she it helps with her
anxiety, with depression, andand I just wonder and she also
smokes cigarettes and I'mthinking, is that what it points

(19:43):
out, and sort of what we'vebeen saying, is that it affects
different people differently,and so there are people who, can
you know, my first experiencewith it was not a good one, and
so, because of that experience,any time the thought of doing it
, I remember that experiencebecause it was so vivid and real

(20:07):
to me that I didn't want to doit.
Well, the same thing for theperson who, on the other side,
realized, if I take this everyday, I'm calmer.
So these are the people whohave attention deficit disorder
or hyper anxiety disorder.
They'll take it and they'lltell you they're much calmer,

(20:31):
and people who are around them,who know them, will say that
they're different yeah they'llthink that they're taking a
prescription drug.
But they may only be takingmarijuana because you know it's
like anything else.
Most of us don't go aroundtelling all our friends every
drug we take Not part of thenormal conversation to sort of

(20:51):
do that.
Now, when it's appropriate, youshare that information, but on
a normal basis Well, it'sdifferent if you're smoking,
because you can smell it a mileaway.
When it's there, it's easy toknow that it's in you somewhere.
You may not see the personsmoking, but it's in you you
walk down the street in New Yorkand you get it there.

"Aussie" Mike James (21:12):
You know, in DC oh yeah, in DC High, as we
used to go, you get an eye towalk down, but to be the devil's
advocate here, dr K, when youtalk about chronic use, I mean
if you're a chronic person,chronic alcohol use, you should
get the same things, thoughright, your memory goes, your
speech deteriorates, yourperformance deteriorates and so
forth.

(21:32):
So I guess it's a matter ofanything done to excess.
It has some consequences thataren't too good.
But I'll question yeah, theanalogy I've always used and
again, I'm not a smoker, butI've always said if you get a
group of young bucks or youngaggressive guys around drinking
alcohol, there's going to besomething happens later on.

(21:53):
I mean, there could be trouble,yeah, but a group of people
smoking marijuana, that won't bean issue.
I mean, is that too simplistic?
A sort of a?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (22:00):
Again this goes into.
Who are these people basicallybefore all of this?

Ketil Hviding (22:06):
happened, Controlling for the type of
people we're talking about.
I see the boxers.
Whatever they take, they'regoing to get into trouble.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (22:15):
And those are the slim nerds, yeah that's
what happened, and I think thatif nothing more we get out of
this is that it is important torecognize that the marijuana
that's out there is not uniform.

"Aussie" Mike James (22:31):
Right.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (22:33):
So the marijuana that's being sold in
DC is going to be different thanlikely than the marijuana in
Virginia or the marijuana inMassachusetts or in New York or
wherever.
And because it affects peopledifferently, now what?
We are creatures of habits sothat if we go to the same store

(22:56):
all the time to get the samething and we get the same
benefit from it, we tend torevisit it.
Well, it's no different thanmarijuana.
Go there and you're in thisterrible pain.
You got this terrible back painthat the opioids and that's one
of the things that they havefound that in people who have
been, they're paying so bad thatthey're on opioids when they

(23:19):
start taking marijuana.
Their use of opioids goes downand technically, the view that
opioids are a much moredangerous drug long term for use
.
So indirectly there's a benefitfrom it.
You get the person off of it.

Dave Liss (23:36):
Can you talk a little bit about the different kinds
of marijuana and the differencebetween smoking marijuana on the
body and eating marijuana onthe body, like sativa indica on
the couch or hybrids, that kindof thing?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (23:53):
So the smoking is the one that many
people back in the 60s and the70s was the thing that most
people were doing and mostpeople were doing Now.
It's a combination of becauseit's legal in 39 states now and
the District of Columbia thatyou can.

(24:14):
Now they're selling it asedibles in different forms, as
gummies.
I've even seen things wherethey've given it funny names to
attract.
I would say this is a negativepart of it to attract things
like calling it pot tarts andyou know it's a takeoff on pop

(24:36):
tarts.

"Aussie" Mike James (24:37):
Sure.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (24:37):
You know which indirectly.
Who are they indirectly tryingto sell this to?
Yes, and you know, and for onething so, but you can.
Smoking is the quickest waybecause you inhale it and it
goes in, gets into thebloodstream immediately and it
goes to every organ in the body,including the brain of giving

(25:02):
people treatment for it.
They found that people whenthey were taking the gummies or
the brownies or however they'retaking it by mouth, for those
people who have a condition wecall irritable bowel syndrome,
where people have periods wherethey have a lot of loose bowel
movements and crampy abdominalpain, or there's a form of it

(25:25):
where you have crampy abdominalpain and constipation, a form of
it where you have crampyabdominal pain and constipation,
or another.
There's four forms of that.
And what they found?
That some people who take itthat way get relief of their
symptoms.
But again, because it hasn'tbeen standardized how they
tested it, you don't know ifit's really that marijuana that

(25:50):
they took earlier in the day, oris it that they just changed
what they ate or that theirstress level is less.
We just don't know.
When you smoke it and inhale it, you know.
They see that it has a benefitwhere it gives people and, as
Kettle said earlier, once youinhale it, because it goes

(26:11):
directly, it's like alcohol.
It's why, when you go to a bar,they always put a little tiny,
tiny straw in the drink.
And what does that do is, ifyou sip it through there rather
than just drink it, you actuallyare sipping in, taking in
oxygen goes straight to thebrain.

Ketil Hviding (26:30):
That's why they had the straw.
You know the straw, I just sawintense.
I thought this was a girl.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (26:39):
I thought you know A quick way to get
people, because a lot of peoplethat go to bars don't really
drink a lot, so you do that inthere.
So the nip and stuff the bodyby eating it as opposed to
smoking it.

Dave Liss (27:09):
I don't know if that's because every place you
get it it's different.
It's not like you buy it andwatch the cookies.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (27:15):
Well, I guess indirectly.
The difference is that when youeat it and it's broken down and
put into the circulation, itgoes to every organ in the body
equally.
It just gets distributedequally Versus inhaling it.
It's first coming up here tothe head.
It's first coming up here tothe head, to the lungs and then

(27:36):
goes everywhere else.

Ketil Hviding (27:39):
I have a question related to what Mike said fear
of cancer, I guess, or the sameeffect of tobacco, but I do
think that smoking marijuana isless linked to Infusina.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (27:53):
I don't know what you have is.
You may have people who aremore at risk for having a
condition we call bronchitis,which is inflammation of the
upper lining of the lung andmarijuana.
So therefore, you may besomeone who now is developing a
chronic cough Because we used to, I you know, there are a lot of

(28:14):
people who smoke cigarettes whocough all the time, but there
are a lot of people who smokecigarettes who don't cough.
So is the belief is there'smore inflammation with inhaling
marijuana in the lungs itself,but there's been no close
association with cancer of thelung.

Dave Liss (28:36):
Okay, I mean, but you're not saying it's safe to
smoke, you're saying theyhaven't directly linked smoking
marijuana with increased risk ofcancer.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (28:46):
Yeah, that's all, that's a whole
science for it.
Part of it still is.
There aren't a lot of studiesout there literally testing that
theory?
Because, again, as Kevin saidearlier, you need to have a sort
of placebo-controlledenvironment where you have one
group who's actually getting themarijuana, environment where

(29:08):
you have one group who'sactually getting the marijuana.
Now, anybody who's smokedmarijuana and has smelled it you
kind of, even if you're not theone smoking, you know that, you
know that that person's smokingit.
So if you gave the placebogroup what was essentially
tobacco and had them inhale itand they don't get that same
aroma and smell and they don'tget that sort of same sort of

(29:29):
nice, euphoric, calm, relaxingsensation, they already know oh
wow, I'm in a placebo group, I'mnot getting anything.
So there there are difficultiesin even wanting to test that
from that perspective.
You know.
Now the other way you could doit is you.

(29:50):
You could take two groups ofpeople who smoke marijuana and
basically do serial chest X-rays, make them cough up sputum
stuff like that.
You might get something out ofthat, but it's, it's not
realistic and and you know, andagain, eventually the placebo
group's gonna know they're notgetting anything and

(30:13):
particularly if there's someonewho's all they really enlisted
in this because they wanted toget free red marijuana.
And after two weeks, you know,smoking two, two joints a day
and stuff.
I don't feel anything, I don'tfeel anything.
You know I'm up all night.

"Aussie" Mike James (30:34):
Like low-alcohol beer, Dr K, with the
medical.
What about for pregnancy andbreastfeeding and the effect on
fetal and infant development?
We know normal smoking has bigeffects on that.
What about marijuana?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (30:49):
It's probably the same thing Again.
The simple thing aboutpregnancy is that you know, and
the recommendations have alwaysbeen the same Don't give them
anything during pregnancy,because the particularly the
first three months, four monthsof the pregnancy, pregnancy when
the baby is developing all ofits organs, tissues and

(31:10):
everything.
If you do it then now, and youknow in theory, you would expect
that it might be an issue.
Now that brings up the pointwhat happens and why they are
against having young kids usingmarijuana.
They have definitely found thatthere's impaired attention,

(31:31):
difficulty to focus, memory andlearning problems, difficulty
thinking things through, poorIQs.
So they clearly have shown thatif people who were smoking
marijuana before they were 18years old, they tended not to be
as academically smart as thosewho didn't.

Dave Liss (31:57):
Does it affect people differently throughout their
life, like a teenager versus a40 year old, versus an 80 year
old?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (32:05):
versus a 40-year-old versus an
80-year-old.
Again, it depends on thereasons why.
So I always say you know, wehave to remember that under
normal circumstances most peoplearen't doing marijuana every
day like a person does acigarette, you know, or even a
person has a drink, you know, inmany ways it was started out as

(32:33):
a social.
It was part of a social thingto you know, get to hang out
with your buddies, your girlsand have a good time and and
then relax and enjoy.
So it's difficult to I wouldn'tthink that there's, for
whatever reason, older adults,when they start using it, for

(32:55):
the most part they're using itbecause they have a specific
need that they want to address.
Pain is one, nausea andvomiting is another.
Sleep has become another.
Now, as mentioned earlier,people who start taking smoking,
marijuana, using gummies andedibles, etc.

(33:17):
There have been reports andagain reports that they sleep
better.
They sleep better.
They notice, if I take my gummyat 7 pm, I sleep better that
night.
But if I take my gummy at 12noon, I don't necessarily sleep
any better at night because I'mprobably napping in the middle
of the day and this is very muchindividualized.

(33:42):
Everybody.
And again, there's no, at leastto my knowledge knowledge
there's no standardization ofmarijuana because the percentage
of the thc in each plant isdifferent.

"Aussie" Mike James (33:55):
So dr k, with those medical implications?
What about marijuana'sinteraction with other
medications?
What should the patients andhealth care providers be aware
of?
Is there anything?
You shouldn't mix it with them.
Your adduce and so forth, Idon't know.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (34:08):
Blood pressure, blood pressure
medication.
I take the same principle.
I'd say that's always.
You have to have thatdiscussion with your provider
Anytime you're going to try anew drug.
You know sort of and many timesit almost always say so.
For instance, you almost don'twant to mix marijuana with
opioids because it tends to one,because they both have the

(34:32):
potential for becoming addictingdrugs.
You know same principle.
You probably don't want to mixmarijuana with alcohol.
You know double whammy.
Yeah.
So same principle.
I would say that it's importantthat you should try not to mix
any drugs, that you haven't hada discussion with someone who's

(34:55):
more in line to give you someanswers remember in high school
health class they talked aboutthe potentiating effect.

Dave Liss (35:04):
It was alcohol.
That one drug intensifies theeffect of another.
Is that a good understanding?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (35:10):
Again, yeah , depending on the drug,
depending on what its mode ofaction is, yes, but everything
is different.
It's all very much up in theair.

Dave Liss (35:21):
I've heard some people say that you can't get
addicted to marijuana, and Idon't know about that.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (35:27):
I don't know about that one.
Anybody's entitled to sayanything.

Ketil Hviding (35:33):
That one's a little bit strange.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (35:35):
Yes, you know, I would always say I could
.
You know, it's no differentthan the person saying you can't
get addicted to sugar.

Ketil Hviding (35:44):
Sure, sure, maybe there's no withdrawal effects
in the same way as there arewith certain other drugs, or at
least not strong withdrawaleffects.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (35:53):
I would say for the person who uses it,
you'd almost have to be using itlike the person who smokes
cigarettes, that you're smokingevery day, or you're using
marijuana every day.
You're using it three or fourtimes during the day and then
you cut it off Because, remember, once the chemical gets in the

(36:14):
body, it goes to different cellswithin our body and has an
action effect.
It's either going to enhancethe release in the brain it
enhances the release of certainchemicals, which in some people
is a good thing, it calms themdown, um or in others, it
elevates their mood, makes themhappy, etc.

(36:36):
Same same principle.
So what you think?
If you've been doing somethingregularly for an extended period
of time and you take it away,it's no different.
Same thing would happen withalcohol.

Ketil Hviding (36:49):
There's a strong withdrawal effect and tobacco,
but maybe here too, I mean.
But you could probably measurethat I'm very skeptical.
I don't know what the studiesare for taking it as a sleep aid
on a regular basis, as I amwith any other medication, and

(37:09):
in particular because I don'tknow what the studies are.
But the REM sleep is for meimportant and I've felt that
when I've done it in the morningI'm a little, but that may be
just an imagination.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (37:26):
Well, I agree with you about the REM
sleep, because that's the mostimportant one.
And again, there have beenstudies where they've said where
people have gotten the benefitof better sleep with the use of
marijuana.
What we're not sure about iswhat kind of marijuana are they
having?
What's the dose of themarijuana?

(37:46):
Are they taking it to get themback to getting?
Because once you can get intoREM sleep you can have a good
sleep.
So if it takes three or fourdays where this person using the
marijuana to get good sleep,they may be able to stop and go
right into REM sleep.
But we don't know.

(38:07):
And again, this still pointsout, they still have to do a lot
of studies.
I know Harvard is doing.
The organization at Harvard iscalled MIND, m-i-n-d, and they
are doing studies.
They're doing a lot of studiesto to determine those effects,
to see what benefits there are,etc it's common to take for

(38:32):
sleep.
Now that is quite common forespecially older people to take
it for a sleep aid well, I willtell you, for older people
who've never done it, it is hardto get them to consider doing
something like that, becausepart of it is it for the longest
time our view of marijuanapublicly has.

(38:55):
No, you shouldn't do that.
No, you shouldn't do that.
And now that it's become legal,because they say most of the
people who go to the medicalmedicinal places are in their
30s, so the boomers are notboomers.

Dave Liss (39:13):
No, they just drink more.
Who must drink a lot.
I have a friend who works in aretirement community and they
have increasing things withmarijuana usage for the
residents and that's aretirement community for old
hippies, doug.

"Aussie" Mike James (39:33):
That's why and they can do it legally, I
sure will.

Dave Liss (39:39):
You got Dave's friends.
I guess it was the JimmyBuffett retirement community but
, that's different.

"Aussie" Mike James (39:47):
But I'd the old bugbear, the old pejorative
term that people who reallydidn't want you to take anything
they always said it was likethey used that term gateway drug
.
Yeah, yeah, that was thepopular term.
Yeah, is there any proof ofthat?
I'm a beer drinker.
It doesn't mean I'm going to bedrinking scotch, and lead me on
to it.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (40:05):
That's the way I view it.
Well, the simple answer is Idon't think it's any more
gateway drug than anything elseis yeah and again but this
always goes back to personallythat there there are, because I
think we all have the ability tobecome dependent on something
if we use it enough yeah and if,when using it, it gives us a

(40:30):
certain we use to constantly usethe same thing again.
You get, you get something fromit.
You get some reward when thatreward is no longer as intense.
This, this is nothing likeheroin, this is nothing like
speed cocaine, none of thosethings like that where you get

(40:50):
this immediate sort of sensationand when it's gone, you want
more of it.
It doesn't appear to be thatthat's the case, but I always
say that you're always going tofind an individual or
individuals who use it and nolonger get the benefit and
advance to something elsebecause they're looking for.

"Aussie" Mike James (41:12):
Right, a bigger hire, yeah, yeah.
But here's another one thatwasn't on our rundown actually.
I'll throw this out to all thedads in our group what about if
you have a youngster growing upwho starts experiencing
marijuana and things like that?
What's your advice onapproaching something like that
If you're a concerned parent oruncle or auntie or whatever,
firm and delicate?

Ketil Hviding (41:34):
Yeah, yeah, I mean in my family, and not only
because of me, but it was likeyou know, I never tried it,
which is not true.
Never tried it, which is nottrue.
No, I mean, you know.
So I think in a way, especiallywith the legal drug, you will
have this sort of discussionthat we have now about the.

(41:56):
You know, they probably alreadytried it.
When you have a discussion andthen you need to kind of figure
out a little bit in what contextand what actually was the uh,
the um, the effect?
And you know, there's always aaspect you know, illegal drug is
pretty straightforward.
It's like you don't know whatyou get.
You can get something reallydangerous there.
I think there's a big, actuallythe biggest danger, uh,

(42:19):
although there are other as well, but uh, and now with legal
it's a little bit the same.
You know, you go to a uh, oneof those gift shops in DC.
They can put a lot of things inthere, right, and again,
they're using it, maybe for somespecial benefit.

(42:40):
But I think in reality is thatI mean you have to kind of push
for the fact that you need toaffront the world as much with
kind of clear eyes as possibleas being sober.
Yeah, once in a while they trysomething else that you know.
It's not different from whatwe've done, but it's important

(43:01):
not to lock yourself out fromthe reality.

"Aussie" Mike James (43:05):
Right, yeah .

Ketil Hviding (43:05):
So you need to have a discussion about it, like
with sex, yeah.
It's not easy, you know, sex isprobably the more difficult
thing.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (43:14):
They're difficult discussions.
I remember having thediscussions, but it wasn't me
that initiated it.
Interesting, no, my kids askedme how old were you when you
tried this Interesting?
And I said why would you assumethat I tried it?

(43:37):
Because I know all my friends,all your friends who are my
uncles.

Ketil Hviding (43:45):
I know them right so did you give him the answer
then the effect that that had onyou yeah it sounds quite
impressive, actually, you gotgood stuff there, you don't you?
Yeah?
Yeah, it sounds quiteimpressive, actually, you've got
good stuff there.

"Aussie" Mike James (43:59):
You don't need this stuff anymore.
Avoid the dancing lions andelephants.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (44:03):
It was really interesting To the point
that we can't have any ceramicanything on our coffee table.
Really, really no.

Ketil Hviding (44:18):
The next podcast, I'm going to come up with some
ceramic and I've got to.

"Aussie" Mike James (44:23):
Look, we've covered a lot of the physical
aspects and so forth.
Anything we missed there, guys.
Dave, do you have anything elseto throw out there, because I
thought we'd move on to theeconomic and business
considerations.

Dave Liss (44:34):
Are we good to move on?
I think we've covered a lot ofareas.

"Aussie" Mike James (44:37):
So, all right, this might be right in
your area a lot more Kettle.
How has marijuana legislationimpacted state economies and
what are the potential long-termeconomic benefits and costs?

Ketil Hviding (44:49):
I mean there's shown to be some increase in
income in those states, inparticular the newcomers.
So they had a lot of tourism, alot of marijuana tourism, but
actually the impacts on theeconomy are not that really
large.
I mean, it's a very competitiveindustry, as you know.
Some effects on taxation, ofcourse.

(45:10):
You get increased taxation andactually it's quite interesting,
you also have federal taxation.
How?
does that work.
I was so surprised and Iactually talk about it being
taxed more than other businesses.
But again, you know, these areprobably, you know, things to
kind of sort out on uh, on, kindof so taxation is quite so.

(45:32):
So taxing goes up on marijuanabecause, on alcohol, because
there's some reduction inalcohol consumption when you
have it's been freed indifferent states.
That also impacts, it seems,driving under influence,
violations and traffic accidents.
Actually, a traffic accidentseems to have gone down
significantly, but not a lot.

(45:54):
The big question and big debateactually in some states and
being the effect on homelessnessand where things, like you know
, there was a report that thenumber of 35 increase in
homelessness, but then the dataare not significant as
economists will say it.
So there is a question ofsignificance.
But then, of course, there's aquestion what all these kind of

(46:15):
studies?
They are event studies.
They say you have a treatmentthey call it treatment actually
affecting, when actually youhave a deregulation or the
legalization, and then you seewhat's happening afterwards.
But a lot of things arehappening afterwards that you
don't control, for you're notable to control.
So I would say homelessness is,um, I would guess it's a
spurious or not really a realthing, but it definitely is

(46:38):
something being talked aboutbecause you have your typical
popular examples of SanFrancisco, homelessness in San
Francisco, even in Colorado andsome kind of and it might also
be that might be linked to thefact that the places that you
have the most earliestliberalization are also quite
liberal versus homelessness.

Dave Liss (47:00):
Was there anything about rates of drunk driving
decreasing or anything like that?

Ketil Hviding (47:04):
Rates.
Yeah, I mean, I don't havenumbers in my head, but there is
a reduction in drunk driving,but there is, of course, driving
under any influence on.
Marijuana is also dangerous.
It's not so easy to pick.
You need to protest.
You cannot just brutalize amarijuana drinker, I think,

(47:28):
especially if they've taken anedible.
But as you were when you weretaking, you had the impact and
you don't know what's going on.
You're gonna be off the road aswell.
I mean with marijuana or withalcohol, but so but, but overall
it seems like it's reducedsomewhat the basically driving

(47:50):
under influence, whatever it isthat impacts it, the basically
reduced traffic distance, butit's more effective.

"Aussie" Mike James (47:58):
Okay, so, ketel, you said it's an opening
in the burgeoning area.
What are the key challenges andopportunities for entrepreneurs
looking to enter the cannabisindustry?

Ketil Hviding (48:07):
It's that it's very competitive.
The margins are small, it's not, but it's also a competitive
industry in a way.
It is possible to enter.
So it doesn't take too much toset up a shop, you uh.
But then you will have to lookyour back for the kind of
cannabis products that's outthere, because there's a lot of
innovation and a lot ofdifferent things that comes out.

(48:31):
But you know, it's uh, it's ina.
You can enter the market.
Still it's not monopolized.
When the big tech companystarts entering, or maybe Trump
enters the market, then it mightnot be possible anymore.
But we're not there yet.

"Aussie" Mike James (48:47):
Okay, so what are the economic
implications of the currentfederal-state legal discrepancy
surrounding marijuana,particularly for banking and
interstate?

Ketil Hviding (48:56):
commerce.
Of course, the banks haveproblems legally.
So basically, the operatorscannot have bank accounts in the
same way I mean check accountsin the same way.
They might have a bank account,but they are really severely
limited using our banks andthat's why you have cash going
on and that increases the danger.

(49:17):
Of course, as you know, you seethese places, they have guards
outside because they have a lotof cash in there, in these shops
.

"Aussie" Mike James (49:24):
And that's a big time as well.

Ketil Hviding (49:26):
So having a legalization on a federal basis
would make a lot of sense interms of reducing these sort of
crime tendencies, make themarket more transparent, make it
easier to operate and maybeeven it would be easier to scale
up as well.
If you can have a good bankingrelationship, it's easier to
scale up the business.

Dave Liss (49:46):
First place I ever went in DC Sorry, the first
place I ever went to in DC tobuy pot.
I was anxious about going it'sjust been legal recently and I
went up the escalator and therewere two policemen.
I thought, god, I'm gonna gowalk up the stairs.
But they were there to help youfind this place where you're
gonna buy the dope when I have.

Ketil Hviding (50:10):
The few times I've done it, but I've gone in
and you will have a ratherstrong looking guy, maybe two,
looking at you in a rather kindof suspicious way.
Yes, I mean, if there's notpolice security, there's always
security.

Dave Liss (50:27):
I mean, it's a strange thing.
It's the only kind of place youcan physically go to as a store
, where you can't use plastic.
You can only pay cash, know,and why is that?

Ketil Hviding (50:39):
why, no, it's because it's federally, uh, it's
a little crime like the bankbecause I know, I've been.

Dave Liss (50:49):
I've been.
I was a coffee place thatopened near me and I went in
there and I I what?
I left my my card in the car,but I had cash and they wouldn't
accept cash.
They only took plastic.
What, what was that?

Ketil Hviding (51:01):
Where.

Dave Liss (51:01):
This place in Virginia.
So it's the opposite.
They only took plastic, yeah,and I think that, like with
marijuana, you can't use plasticand like this, no, no, no,
exactly.

Ketil Hviding (51:12):
And it's because, for a bank whose federal
charter is a federal, it's acrime to facilitate the purchase
of marijuana.

Dave Liss (51:24):
Well, this friend of mine, my friend's sister, was
talking about a place where shewent and she had so much cash.
If you want cash then you haveto pay the surcharge on the.
I don't know if that's relatedto the pot store or the bank
that they're using or both, butyeah, it's the same place with
Rob that I've gone to.

(51:44):
They had to move, yeah, sure,because all it was was cash More
than anything.

Ketil Hviding (51:48):
I mean it is also from state to state and from
district to.
I'm in DC.
It's a very it's not a verytransparent market.
What is actually going onchanged from month to month.
Now it's changing somewhat thelegislation here.
They're trying to clamp down onthose gift shops.

(52:09):
So basically, the gift shop isa place where you buy basically
an artwork that's valueless, butyou pay 20 or 30 bucks for that
and you get like some gummiesin exchange.
So moving more towardsdispensaries because the
dispensaries have beencomplaining that those gift
shops have been taking over themarket- taking their money

(52:29):
dispensaries and you can get themedical marijuana easily by
just filling in the form andsaying that you need it for
medical reasons.
So it's pretty much recreationalin effect.
So that's the sea, but you know, like two months the whole
situation might be changing.
So it's not the.
And again, you know, travelingwith this stuff is.

(52:50):
I know people been doing it andI know people who've done, but
they could be stopped at theairport and they could be
handcuffed.
Really Well, they don't.
They're not.
I mean, the reality is thatit's tolerated in the US in most
places and TSA is tolerating it.
But go abroad and then you'rereally more careful.

(53:10):
And you know there was thisathlete that got imprisoned in
russia.
Yeah, ridney grain.

"Aussie" Mike James (53:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely all right.
We've covered a lot of areasthere, guys.
I mean, if there's uh one tomake, if each of us had one
point we could bring up, or, tosummarize the discussion, my
view of all you've said thatthis is I'm not going to try it
anytime soon.
I'm sticking to where I've got.
Alcohol is enough for me.
But I do see I've learnt aboutthe different strengths which I

(53:39):
didn't know about.
And I'm not going to steal DrKennedy's thunder, but I would
say anyone who's contemplatingstarting it would be, especially
if they're about my age, intheir 60s would want to talk to
their doctor first to get a youknow, and work out where their
lifestyle is in terms ofmedication and so forth.
And work out where theirlifestyle is in terms of
medication and so forth.
Dr K, do you have any?

Dr. Richard Kennedy (53:58):
final words , I tend to agree with you, but
I'd say you have to decide whyyou want to do it.
It's not one of those thingsthat you know like.
It's like the person who isgoing to drink alcohol for the
first time.
Sometimes you do it justbecause you're just fitting in

(54:20):
with the crowd, the event, etcetera.
But then afterwards, when youhave the opportunity to do it
and it's legal, you ask yourselfwhy do I want to do this?
Now, I can understand theperson who has significant pain
using it, at least attempting touse it if other things have not
worked, and like so many otherthings in life, what you hear a

(54:43):
lot of times, you hear fromother people you know who've had
similar concerns about whateverit is.
If it's based for a medicinalpurpose, right, it is.
If it's based for a medicinalpurpose, recreationally well,
recreationally again, is if it'sgoing to be a very occasional

(55:04):
kind of thing, that's one thing.
But if it's now going to becomepart of it that every day I
need to take a lunch break andgo out and take two puffs, you
know then you kind of have toask yourself what is, what's the
reason why you really need todo that now, when you never used
to do it before, because thenwe start talking about other

(55:26):
concerns and you know so.
I think that it's you know.
There's so much up in the airabout it.
It would be nice if, somewheredown the line, they eventually
standardize it so that we know,first of all, you know what
you're getting and and you knowif it's it's, if they use

(55:47):
milligrams, if they usepercentage, however they do it,
it needs to be some consistency,because otherwise then you're a
prisoner to where youdispensary you go into and they
may you know, not to say thatanybody's trying to do anything
nefarious.
It's just the reality is wehave lots of products out there

(56:09):
in the open market that we canwalk into a drugstore
supermarket and purchase and wehave the expectation that it's
got what they say is in it.
Right, that is not necessarilyalways the case with marijuana,
particularly not that it's notmarijuana in it.
It may be marijuana, but it maybe much more than you might.

"Aussie" Mike James (56:32):
Much more potency.

Dr. Richard Kennedy (56:33):
Yeah.

"Aussie" Mike James (56:34):
That's a very big point.
I would never have known thatneophyte that I am.
But, Kettle, do you haveanything else to add?

Ketil Hviding (56:41):
I would really focus on that and because this
is a very unregulated market, Ithink we need much tighter
regulation of it,standardization.
We also need to get moreresearch on the effects.
Yes, to get more research onthe effects.
Yes, because this is and I'malso a little worried that in

(57:02):
certain states there's amarijuana lobby now, yes, right,
and they are pushing for letthem do whatever they want.
And again, it might not be thatthey are trying to kind of do
us harm, but they indirectly dous harm by trying to make profit
.
And that's an old story, as youknow Right, dave, do you have
anything else to add?

Dave Liss (57:22):
I think what Dr Kennedy and Kettle said and you
well said, I'll leave it there.
I think.

"Aussie" Mike James (57:28):
Okay, no problem, okay, so, folks, there
you have it.
That's a 360 degree view ofmarijuana use, from its effects
on individual health to itsripples across our economy and
society.
Covered a lot of ground today,from medical applications and
fitness considerations toaddiction concerns and economic

(57:49):
impacts.
We hope this episode has helpedclear the air on some of the
complexities surroundingcannabis use.
Remember, at WellnessMusketeers, we believe that
informed decisions lead tobetter health outcomes.
If you've found value intoday's discussion, we'd be
thrilled if you'd subscribe toour podcast and share this
episode with others who mightbenefit from this information.

(58:10):
Your support helps us continueto bring you comprehensive,
unbiased content on importanthealth and wellness topics.
Got any thoughts on today'sepisode or ideas for future
discussions?
We'd love to hear from you.
Reach out to us at davidmlissat gmailcom.
So until next time, this isOzzie, mike, james and the
Wellness Musketeers remindingyou to stay informed, stay well

(58:34):
and always consider the biggerpicture when it comes to your
health and wellness journey.
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Crime Junkie

Crime Junkie

Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.

24/7 News: The Latest

24/7 News: The Latest

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Stuff You Should Know

Stuff You Should Know

If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.

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