Sleep, The Ultimate Performance Hack

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Richard Kennedy (00:03):
Take a power nap less than 30 minutes
and earlier in the day, and it'sreally critical, do it before 3
p.m.
Otherwise, you would you'vewasted the nap.

"Aussie" Mike James (00:20):
Hello and welcome back to the Wellness
Musketeers.
I'm Ozzy Mike James, and todaywe're talking about something
that affects every single one ofus.
Sleep.
It's something we all do, butfew of us do well.
And the truth is, how you sleepaffects everything.
Your energy, your memory, yourmood, your fitness, and even how

(00:44):
long you live.
We've got our usual crew onboard.
Dr.
Richard Kennedy, our medicalexpert.
Hello, Rich.
Why yeah?
Good.
Our economist andwellness-minded thinker, Kettle
Vitting.
Hello, yes, you got the nameright this time.
I did.
I tell you what, it's onlytaken me taken me two years.

Ketil Hviding (01:07):
This is a good sleep.

Must have been the good sleeper had.

Yeah.

And David Liss, personal trainer, and our
resident podcast Wrangler.
And before we jump in, folks,don't forget to follow or
subscribe to the WellnessMusketeers on Apple or Spotify.
If you like what you hear,share this with a friend and
leave us a review.
Four-star review, of course.
It helps others discover us.

(01:30):
Let's dive right into thistopic of sleep and why it is the
most underrated superpower wehave.
Dr.
Kennedy, can you kick us off?
What actually happens when wesleep?
And why is it so critical forour health?

Thank you, Mike.
What happens when we sleep?
Simply put, sleeping is ourbody's way of tuning us up and
building us up for the next day.
I call it the recovery phase ofall that has happened the day
before.
What actually happens when wego to sleep as it gets dark, the

(02:05):
gland in the brain called thepineal gland releases a chemical
called melatonin, whichbasically makes us feel sleepy.
It helps us to prepare to getinto sleep.
And then once that happens, wefall asleep, we get into there

(02:27):
are basically four differentphases of sleep that we all go
through.
Stage one, which is just reallylight sleep.
And this is where we transitionfrom wakefulness, where our
muscles relax, our heart rateslows, but it's still easy to

(02:48):
wake us.
And that's typically about oneto five to ten minutes.
Then there's the next phase oflight sleep where our body
temperature drops, our eyemovements that we were having
slows down.
Our brain shows sleep spindles,which are these special things
inside the brain that gets usready.

(03:10):
Then we get into what we calldeep sleep, which is essentially
the most restorative stage ofsleep, where we get to have
tissue repair happening, ourimmune system gets boosted, and
it becomes harder to wake us.
And then stage four, what wecall REM sleep or REM, which is

(03:32):
rapid eye movement, is wherethat's where the dreaming occurs
for the most part for most ofus.
And it'll be vivid dreams.
It's where the brain activityspikes and the body is
paralyzed.
This typically happens overabout a 90-minute period and
then it recycles through thenight.

(03:53):
And that's where we get tonormal sleep weight pattern.
Okay.

Dr.
Kaye, I noticed there's anumber of apps that can track
that.
I don't know a lot about them,but I use the Apple Apple Watch.
That tracks your sleep prettywell.
Do any of the panel know of agood app that really tracks your
sleep other than the AppleWatch?
I think there are a bunch.

Dave Liss (04:14):
I've used them on Apple.
I think you can just look forsleep tracking on your at the
App Store.
I think they do variations.
I don't it's fascinating to mehow they work, how they know
what phase of sleep you're atwhen they're just laying next to
you in your bed.

But yeah, there's various devices now that
you can at least track that.
But when we're talking aboutquality sleep, Dr.
K, what are the signs we'remaybe not getting quality sleep?
Even if we've had long hoursand sleep, essentially asleep,
and we're still feeling jadedand not.

So do you mean this after we've already
awakened from sleep?
Yeah.
A lot of it has to do with howwe function during the day.
Are we alert?
Is our ability to focus like wenormally would during the
course of that early part of theday?
Are we irritable?
Do we have some level ofanxiety?

(05:07):
Do we become forgetful?
Those are the sort of earlythings that tell you that even
though you technically might besleeping six, seven, eight, nine
hours that you're not, and itbecomes a repetitive thing
because you, or the even moresimple thing is that you almost
feel like by midday you gottatake a nap.

unknown (05:30):
Okay.

So even though you've technically slept
for a long period of time, yourbody is still telling you're not
really awake.
Right.
And you're not really alert andfocused.

Okay.
So just on napping, is thatgood or bad or indifferent for
us, or does it attain theindividual?

Actually, napping is good up to a point.
Nobody should nap more than 30minutes.
Napping should occur before 3p.m.
Because if you do it after 3p.m., typically it will
interfere with your ability tosleep later in the evening.

unknown (06:09):
Okay.

And one of the ways you gain a benefit from
napping is that afterwards, andthey call it, we call it power
nap, where it's 10 to 30minutes.
And it's not something youshould be doing every day.
If you're napping every day,then it means that your
nighttime sleep is not, you'renot sleeping the way we would

(06:32):
expect you to sleep throughoutthe day.
If you're feeling that you gota nap every day, every now and
then.
And this is where people who,for whatever reason, instead of
you sleeping your normal sevenhours or eight hours, you only
slept six hours for two, threenights in a row.

(06:52):
And so what ends up happening,your body starts to say, uh, I
need to catch up.
I need to catch up.
And so sleeping, taking a quickpower nap will help you to
focus.
If you sleep too long, meaningif you take a nap that's an hour

(07:13):
and 15 minutes, typically afterthat happens, you're more
groggy as the day goes on.
You find yourself yawning morethroughout the day.
So although you took a nap andyou should have felt refreshed,
and that's what should happenafter you take a power nap of
less than 30 minutes and earlierin the day, and it's really

(07:34):
critical, do it before 3 p.m.
Otherwise, you'll you've wastedthe nap.

Dave Liss (07:42):
Can you two questions at once?
Can you catch up on sleep?
And you talk about don't take anap after 3 p.m.
by the same token.
Should when should you stopdrinking caffeine during the
day?

You probably should stop drinking
caffeine or any other thing.
Same thing with chocolate.
Probably not past four or five.
And partly because if you thinkabout it, the effects of
caffeine, any kind of caffeine,may last still be in your system
six hours later.
Wow.
And so if it's there six hourslater, then by default, when and

(08:20):
caffeine counters whatmelatonin is supposed to do.
Melatonin is that chemical thatis starting to prepare us, to
make us prepare for sleep.
If you take caffeine, or samething with alcohol, why you
don't drink alcohol late, whyyou don't do caffeine late, and

(08:42):
why you don't eat heavy meals,spicy meals, things like that,
because they all do the samething.
They all make your body, andwhat they do is they cause your
sugar to go up.
And when your sugar goes up,then it sends a chemical
reaction and it alters whathappens at night with our

(09:06):
cortisol and with our insulin.

Dave Liss (09:09):
Is it by the same token?
Should you not exercise tooclose to sleep?
Correct.

You should you there should be at least an
hour to two hours before whereyou have completed your physical
activity before you go tosleep.
Again, same principle.
Once you're exercising, you'vereleased all this the cortisol,

(09:37):
the growth hormone, theglucagon, the adrenaline, all of
those things actually, andagain, they don't go away all at
once.
They go away over time.
I always say, think of it thisway melatonin's job is to put us
into the mode where we want tosleep.

So that happens when you exercise?

Yeah.
When you exercise, thosechemicals get released.

Yeah, yeah.
Because I've seen that becausemy my wife had a glucose
monitor, like continuous one.
And actually, there was aninteresting thing when just
during or after exercise, thespike, it spiked.

unknown (10:28):
Yes.

And even that even yeah, she hadn't eaten.
And actually in the morning itspiked too.

Yeah, and that's again a physiological.
If you think about it, whenyou're exercising, you're using
your muscles.
And your muscles are breakingdown.
When they're breaking down,what are they releasing into the
circulation beside the aminoacids?
Is glucose.

Oh yeah.

Okay.
And so your sugar then tends togo up, which then sends a
signal to the brain to send asignal to the pancreas, we need
to push some insulin out there.
And you now have altered whatwould normally be happening when
we're sleeping.

Is there, you know, after I retired, I started
sleeping more, obviouslybecause I didn't need to get up
that early and I didn't havethat very clear activities.
I would hit easily eight hoursand sometimes even nine hours.
Can you sleep too much?
I think it's a hard question.

I think that's an individual thing,
because and then that leads intowhat for a person over 50, what
is the normal amount of hourswe should sleep?
And that typically is seven tonine hours.
For a person, for a person, for18 to 64, they say seven to

(11:48):
nine hours.
For 64 plus, 65 plus, they sayseven to eight hours.
Yeah.
And as we age, what ends uphappening, we start to get tired
earlier.
So we go to bed earlier, andthereby we wake up earlier.

(12:12):
And so you see, I see this withmy father-in-law, who's 92, is
that all of a sudden he's up at5 a.m.
religiously, and they've beenliving with us 10 years, and he
used to be getting up 6, 6:30,7.
And what it does is it altersyour sleep pattern.

(12:34):
And this goes to why it'simportant to get sunlight and to
go out in the sun.
Because we'll talk about it alittle bit more, the circadian
rhythm, which is the brain inthe body's cycle to a 24-hour
cycle.
And it's and it uses it basedon light and darkness.

(12:56):
And when we get light, when wego out in the light, that signal
goes into our brain.
And all of this happens at thewhat is that called?
It's called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is out
of the hypothalamus, a part ofthe brain.
That's scientific.

(13:16):
And it's supposed to, it is thethey call it the master
regulator of our circadianrhythm.

Oh, okay.
So what I use that you talkedabout light.
I use sometimes some eyeshields.
In the beginning, you think ahdoesn't, but it really works as
hard and really is strong.
Oh yeah, they when they work,yeah.
There's some light, not a lotof light, but there's a little

(13:46):
bit of light, and even keepingthat out is very important.

Dave Liss (13:50):
I have a couple of friends and they just got back
different trips, but they werein Norway near the Arctic
Circle.
And it was at when they were atthe Arctic Circle, it was 24
hours of sunlight.
And I don't know how thataffects people.
Have you lived in that kettle?

I spent a summer up there.
This problem you generally tendto spend more time during the
night, or so sleep less, atleast during the night.
But again, you need to havevery good shades for your room
and curtains.
So it keeps out the light.
And if not, it's very hard tosleep enough.

Dave Liss (14:27):
And then by the on the opposite side, if you if
it's 18-20 hours of darkness,how does that affect people?

Then you I when I grew up in Norway, I uh
generally in the morning I wouldhave to go always get up before
the light, and when you comehome in from school that's ended
quite early, it was dark.
And of course, it keeps youryou you see it in order to keep
going, you keep it it's a littleharder.
So people drink a lot ofcoffee.

(14:56):
Yeah.
And I also spent a winter up inthe north where it's actually
even darker.
There, I really drank a lot ofcoffee and I got kind of
problems because of in mystomach because of that.

Yeah.
Because it stimulates a lot ofacid release.

Yeah, no, I mean it's it's helpful to wake
yourself up, but it's nothelpful to stay awake, really.

And that brings up another thing is that
probably one of the best thingsevery person can do is to put
themselves on a sleep-wakeschedule.
Meaning that you get up acertain time every morning and
you go to bed pretty much at thesame time you typically, and if
you get into a routine likethat, your sleep tends to be

(15:39):
more regulated and improved.
And it's like here in the US,you have lots of people who are
shift workers.

unknown (15:45):
Yeah.

Who work 4 p.m.
to midnight and 12 a.m.
to 8 a.m.
Well, for them, because lightand darkness is all is almost
reverse, in order for them tostill get their seven to nine
hours of sleep, it's importantfor them to do that when uh they

(16:09):
have to, when they get off atmidnight, it's still dark, it's
easier for them to fall asleep.
But come 7 a.m.
when they're still asleep,still sleeping, in order for
them to stay asleep for thatseven hours, eight hours, that's
when an eye shield might beuseful.
It'd also be helpful to be in adark, cool room because

(16:34):
normally, and when we again,when we're falling asleep, our
body temperature, as we start tofall off the sleep, the body
slows itself down to begin theovernight repairs.
And so the heart rate goesdown, our breathing rate goes
down, the body temperature goesdown.
All of this in preparation forregenerating all of the things

(16:58):
that have been worn out over thecourse of the previous day.

Dave Liss (17:01):
How about our screen time?
If people we're all on ourphones or watching TV, is it bad
like for people to put a TV onin the background or is it all
that stuff?

Yes.
So your phone, so typicallyyour phone, your computer, your
laptop, your TV essentiallyemanates something called blue
light.
And that by itself falselythinks the body needs to be
awake.
Which means it'll be harder foryou to get into the different

(17:38):
phases of sleep you need to getin.
And they've they believe thatit decreases the release of
melatonin from the brain.
It's add the fact that as weget older, we also make less
melatonin than we did when wewere younger.

So another thing, so I noticed that, and it's a
little bit related even to thefact that when I travel, so the
question about you travel intime zone, so you get jet lag.
There are two philosophies orfamily about how to beat this.
My wife is to force herself tostay up very late when she comes

(18:17):
to the States from Europe, forinstance, to get into a new
rhythm.
I basically go with the flow.
When I'm sleepy, I sleep.
When I'm not sleepy, I don'tsleep.

And so that's the question: what is the best strategy? (18:29):
undefined
Then there's anotherobservation, so you can to some
extent maybe related, is that Ifind when I getting over the so
I have a rhythm that normallythat's about sleep, and then I
eat at certain times, and I goto the bathroom at certain, and

(18:49):
all of these things need to bejoined for me to be over the jet
lag.
So the eating time becomes veryimportant too.
It's very important.

It goes back to routine.
It goes back to a routine.
You're right, you and your wifeelicit the right thing that
each person's a little bitdifferent.
Okay.
So somebody, so one person maysay, I'm gonna push through.
When I used to travel toEurope, Asia, and Africa, I

(19:23):
would push through partly, andagain, I always say
interestingly, goingparticularly going to Europe,
Asia, you end up tip, and it'snot surprising why most of the
flights leaving the U.S.
from the East Coast for sure,leave mid-evening, mid-early
afternoon to the early evening.

(19:46):
Yeah.
Because they want you to getthere the next morning.
Where basically, even though,and your body's gonna be jet
lag, but because you're on aplane, it's easier to fall
asleep like you normally wouldbased on your time.
And when you wake up, you'recloser to being in that time

(20:09):
zone.
Doesn't always work.
It's and there, and again,there are other options that
people use.
There are people who use themelatonin pills, people use what
is it, valerian root, chamomiletea, CBD, all of these
different things.
And I always say this is whatworks for one person may not

(20:32):
work for another.

Yeah.
If it's any consolation,Kettle, my brother, an
international pilot for about 40years, he follows the same
method you do.
He said he's he's seen all themethods for jet lag, but he says
if you fall asleep, you justfall asleep.

Like my wife, they want to control things, and
they're happy when they controlthings, and then you have
people who go with the flow,like me.

I'm not entering into that one.
We'll leave that.
That's a whole other podcast,Kettle.
Happy way, happy life.

Yeah, I can't wait to meet those type A
personalities.
Oh, careful what you're doing.

We've been moving on.
Okay.
Let's talk about who needs howmuch sleep.
Dr.
K.
What are the general guidelinesfor different age groups from
infants to older folks likemaybe some of us getting the
game?

So inf infants need they need the most
sleep because they need thattime for their brains to
develop, for their muscles todevelop, the nerve roots and
everything, their organs.
Like zero to three months,they're probably what is it, 14

(21:55):
to 17 hours a day.
Um by the time you get to oneto two years old, it's 10 to 12
hours.
When you get a little bitolder, the three to five.
And it's not surprising, it'show we, how our children, even

(22:15):
when they're in preschools andthings, that there's nap time
built into there's nap timebuilt in the morning of their
day, there's nap time built inthe afternoon of their day.
And then of course they go homeand they go to sleep.
So they they need about 10hours as well.
It's it and it's not until youget to about 13, 13 years old,

(22:42):
13 to 18, where you start to seeeight, eight to twelve hours of
sleep is normal.
And then after 18, 18 to 64, wetend to say 7, 7 to 7 to 9

(23:04):
hours, 65 plus, 7 to 8 hours,and then and then it's a get
because there are a lot ofelderly people who would tell
you they they don't sleep morethan four or five hours a night.
And there are a lot ofdifferent reasons for that as
well.

Dave Liss (23:23):
Do women or men sleep need the same amount of sleep?

Dr. Richard Kenned (23:27):
Technically, everyone believes women need
more sleep than men, and that'sbecause women have more hormonal
changes as they go throughlife, through menstrual cycles,
through pregnancy, throughmenopause, all of these things.
And so they believe that Ithink it I was reading, it was

(23:49):
either Hopkins or the MaoClinic, where it's saying that
women need about 11 minutes moreper night than men.
And then that again, as we age,after the age of 50,
everybody's sleep patternschanges.
But women, so for instance,women have more, there's a

(24:10):
greater association with womenwith mood disorders.
So with depression, anxiety,things like that.
Men actually have more sleepapnea than women until you get
to menopause, and then women andmen have about the same amount
of sleep disorder.
Catch up on sleep.

(24:31):
Can you catch up on sleep?
Up to a point.
I'd say, so in other words,let's say for two, three nights
you wake up and you end upwaking up an hour early, or you
go to bed an hour later, but youstill wake up the same time.
Two, three nights you'd be tofor that'll be essentially three

(24:52):
to four hours.
You might be able to catch upif you go to bed a little bit
early and sleep a little bitlater.
The other way would be to startto integrate nap time into, but
that's for short term.
In other words, if a person'swhat we would call sleep
deprived, meaning you've you'reno longer sleeping your regular

(25:17):
seven to nine hours, but you'redoing five to six hours and
you're doing it for a month,you're probably not gonna catch
up with it that way.
So those people, that's whenyou that's where first then you
entertain simple things.
So you try to make sure you geton a regular sleep schedule.

(25:37):
Because a lot of times this is,and this goes back to travel.
When people are traveling, theywill, their sleep patterns get
disrupted.
Matter of fact, even your bowelpatterns and urination patterns
change when you travel.
There are lots of people whotell you who they go to the
bathroom regularly, once a day,and then they go and travel, and

(26:00):
all they did was go fromCalifornia to New York or from
New York to Chicago, and they'lltell you that they don't go to
the bathroom for two to threedays.

unknown (26:12):
Yeah.

So constipation.
Yeah.
And again, it's because yourcircadian rhythm has changed.
And everything is tied to thatcircadian rhythm.

I I read somewhere that there is
literally for six hours, ittakes at least from one to two
weeks before it's actuallyadjusted.

It's probably I'm sure there's truth
to that, but they'll there itvaries.
So I would say the seasonedtraveler has learned how to
counter that quicker.
Now, for you, it may be easierfor you because you've taken the
if my body says go to sleep,I'm gonna go to sleep.
Yeah, I go to that doesn't it.

(26:57):
Now, it's easier to do thatwhen you're in a retirement
phase where you don'tnecessarily have a whole lot
planned for the next day.
That if you might have said,gee, I'm gonna go do this, but
nah, you don't feel like gettingup, you just rest.
But if you're going to ameeting and you're having to
make a presentation, you have tobe ready to make the

(27:20):
presentation.
So you have to make someadjustments.
Yeah, yeah.

Dave Liss (27:24):
I read this one article is about this.
It was the coach of the Britishcycling team.
And so what he had this thingabout continuous improvement.
And so, in order to help havethe athletes sleep better, he
encouraged them to bring theirown pillows and blankets from
home.
Because they said they'd bemore comfortable and they

(27:45):
improve the quality of theirsleep.

That makes sense.
It just makes sense.
Anything that can breathefamiliarity for you is going to
benefit you.

That's why you say little kids with their
blankets and their uh pillowsthat they get attached to.
Maybe does it bring the teddybears as well?

Yeah.

Some of them do, yeah.
Mine's just out here.
Oh, I'm sorry.

Dave Liss (28:10):
Dr.
Kenny, from as a physician,what are the range or most
common or craziest problemsyou've seen people come to you
about with regards to this?

A lot of it used to be insomnia.
I just can't I just can'tsleep.
And so initially they'll trythe over-the-counter things, the
Tylenol PM, for instance, whichis essentially Benadryl, but
any things like that, or Nyquil,all of those things,
essentially they'rediaphenhydramine, they're

(28:43):
antihistamines that havesedating properties.
So I will always try the firstthing.
For me, it was always what'syour sleep pattern for you?
When do you typically go to bedat the same time?
Do you typically get up at thesame time?
Do you exercise regularly?

(29:04):
If you're a coffee drinker or atea drinker where there's
caffeine in it, when do youdrink it?
When's the last time you drinkit?
When do you exercise?
If you don't exercise, all ofthose things.
So once I get a sense of wherethey are, then the next step is

(29:27):
first, let's try and get youinto a regular routine if you
don't have one.
In other words, I'm gonna getup at 6 a.m.
every morning, and I'm gonna goto bed at 7 p.m.
or 8 p.m.
every night.
And so if you do once youbecause our bodies are they're
machines, and so they they getused to repetition.

(29:50):
It's no different than whenyou're doing a new exercise.
If you're doing rev the reasonwe do repetitions is to create,
i.e., muscle memory.
That's what you're doing withyour brain.
And when you do that, all ofthis helps with your ability to
focus, your memory, because partof when you're sleeping is it's

(30:13):
helping your brain to store thememories that have happened and
put them in the right place inthe brain so that a day from
now, two days from now, you canrecall them without trying to
say, gee, I know there wassomething like that had happened
before, but I can't recognizeit.
Yeah.

Okay, Dr.
Kay, when we talk about the onewe often hear about is sleep
apnea, is that different fromjust snoring?
And when should we see a sleepspecialist with any of those
problems?

So sleep apnea, snoring is a can be a
part of sleep apnea.
Right.
I've always believed thateverybody snores.
If you were to sit and watchpeople, and actually we'll talk
about the anecdote I have aboutsleeping in the middle of the
day.
But one of the interestingthings is that it becomes sleep

(31:07):
apnea when it for the individualit's disruptive.
So is it disruptive to wholives with them, who sleeps
nearby with them if they'rehearing the snoring?
Because snoring, there'ssnoring that stops the person
multiple times of stopping theirbreathing, because the muscles

(31:28):
in the back of the throat relax,and then basically you snore as
a reflective response.
The ones where who have what wecall obstructive sleep apnea,
which is the most common form,it's because the individual has
had periods where they're havingtrouble getting through days.

(31:49):
They feel like they gotta,they're always tired, no matter.
They'll tell you that I sleptfor eight hours last night, but
I'm still tired.
I'm still tired.
Or that they were drinking onecup of coffee and now they're
and now they're drinking four orfive cups of coffee and then a

(32:11):
little bit of chocolate.
Or they say, gee, I need torest tonight, so I'll take a
quick drink before I go to bed,which is also a no-no, because
it all basically interferes withones that build respiratory
capacity.
And the way you evaluate thisbasically two ways.

(32:33):
The old ways is to, and theystill do it, is to go into a
sleep lab where you see thesleep specialists and they put
all these electrodes andeverything on you, and you go to
sleep and it registers all thatinformation.
Or now they have home sleepstudies.
Okay.
And actually that became, tome, it was a godsend.

(32:56):
Because you could youautomatically just write the
prescription, put it in, andthen the sleep company sends it
directly to the patient with theinstructions on how to attach
it and everything.
You wear it for two, threenights in a row.
It's recording how long yousleep, how many times you stop

(33:18):
breathing, how many times youbreathe really rapidly after you
your body realized you'vestopped breathing, how restful
was your sleep.
And then it will determinewhether you're someone who the
CPAP machine, which is the sortof gold standard that you give
the person to help them tosleep.

(33:40):
There are other people wherethey'll give them the dentist
can put in a mouth guard thatyou can wear that basically what
it does is it prevents you fromclamping down so that this
airway stays open.
And you be.
So those it works for some.
Okay.

(34:00):
But and you know, now theimportance of treating sleep
apnea is because of theconcomitant health conditions
that it aggravates or makesworse.
Obesity, diabetes, heartdisease, blood pressure, all of
them are affected by it.
Significant others move you tothe couch or to another room if

(34:24):
they because it's disturbing.
And the only times that peopledon't wake up is in the the deep
sleep or the REM sleep, becauseit's so deep they can you could
be singing a song and nobodywill hear you.

Dave Liss (34:40):
Is the primary cause of apnea?
Is the primary cause of apnea?
Is it related to weight oralcohol, or just is people have
more of a disposition?

Weight contributes to it for sure.
The heavier you are, if youthink about it, the heavier you
are.
And I always say that we are,whenever we've gained weight, we
proportionately gain weighteverywhere.
So if you've gained weightaround your hips and your belly,
you've also gained weight inyour throat.

(35:11):
So now, and this is a verysmall area where air is supposed
to come in.
And remember the other side ofit is, and this is why sleep apt
is a problem, is that normallywhen we breathe in through our
nose, which by default warms theair oxygen coming in, which

(35:31):
then also opens up the tubingbelow it to allow it to go in.
When we breathe through ourmouth, it's not warmed, it's
cool, and it makes things closedown.
So it makes the area that'ssmall smaller.
And that's what's happeningwith snoring.

Dave Liss (35:49):
So a couple years ago, Kettle and I interviewed
James Nestor, who wrote thisbook called Breath or Breathe.
And he was a proponent of weshould all be breathing strictly
through our nose, and thenthere the idea of uh tape over
your mouth while you sleep.
And I don't know what you thinkof either of those things.
I don't know.

It seems could it work?
First of all, I'll I'll put itthis way think of it when you
when people have the CPAPmachines, so there's basically
two or three types.
There's a CPAP machine thatlooks like an oxygen mass that's
over your nose as well as yourmouth and everything like that.

(36:33):
And for and it's noisy becauseit's pushing air through.
It's constantly pushing airthrough.
So for a lot of people, it'soppressive.
So what ends up happening, theystart out sleeping with it, and
a half an hour into sleep, it'soff.
So to do this where youliterally zip the mouth closed,

(36:58):
it's just not instinctive.
It's possible, but I think it'sit would have to be a learned
behavior.
You'd have to train people todo that.

I've been sleeping with the thing that
pushes my I think it's the lowerpart forward.

Yeah.

The palate.

Yeah.

And in the beginning that was awful to put
on, but now I'm completely usedto it, so that's not a problem.
I've also tried to tape themoff.
It worked.
But I think the idea that weshould try to breathe more
through the nose is probably agood thing.

Yeah.

You also look smarter and healthier when you
do that.
Yeah, you do?
Yeah, yeah.
You look at especially oldpeople, they have the mouth
though, and they breathe a lotwith the mouth.
Yes.
So if you're actually veryconscious about how you look
like an I am, you basically tryto look to breathe through the
nose.

And technically you're getting less
air because if you're breathingthrough the mouth, the air is
cool.
It's and by default, the aireverything down here constricts
because it doesn't like the coolair.
So technically, you're gettingair in, you're just getting less
than you would normally do.

Of course, if you do a lot of physical activity,
you would have to breathe witheverything.
But another advantage then isalso when you actually calm down
and you want to try to takelonger breaths and you breathe
through the nose, and all ofthat seems to work.
It's not a yeah, it seems toointuitively correct.

(38:30):
But yeah, yeah.

Okay, because on a sort of lighter
note, and it relates to sleep.
I think we can all relate tothat 2 p.m.
feeling after a lunch, theysaid the worst time to attend a
meeting or give a presentationis that 2 p.m.
time where the post-prandialeffect takes place.
Can you explain a bit aboutthat, Rich, after we've had

(38:53):
lunch and then the meeting afterthat is rest time.

Yes.
I'll tell the story, the storyfirst that it explains.
So I used to give talks to theWorld Bank and IMF people who
were soon to retire about goinginto retirement in a healthy
way.
And the talk used to always be12:30 or 1.30 in the afternoon.

(39:21):
And so the very first time Idid it, I'll never forget, it
was in the fun, in the fun.
I started talking, you have theslides up, and I'd say I'd I
probably had gotten through twoslides, and you start hearing a
snoring over in the left corner,and you start hearing coughing

(39:41):
and snoring over in the rightcorner.
I literally turned the light, Iliterally had them turn the
lights on.
Right.
And but what I did is I said tomyself, since I got to do these
talks and they're not gonnachange the times at which they
have them, I said, I have tofind a way to keep people awake
and alert.
So what I did is I bought alittle boom box in, put on some

(40:06):
music, and I made everybodystand up before we start to
talk.
I told them to go at arm'slength, I'd turn on some music,
and I'd sell them, just move.
That's all I want you to do ismove.
And so what was fascinating,the first thing was the
fascinating thing is thatinitially people were reluctant

(40:28):
to do it.
But then they see peoplegetting up, and it's fascinating
when you see people fromdifferent cultures dancing to
the same rhythm of music.
And so people are dancing andshaking and everything like
that.
And we do this for I do thisfor about three minutes, and
then I tell everybody to puttheir arms up in the air, take a
deep breath in, through yournose, blow out through your

(40:51):
mouth, have a seat.
And then I start to talk, andnobody else ever went to sleep.
And then I started doing thatall the time.
But going back to the postpandeal, the real issue is that
when you eat, that food has tobe digested.
And so it gets into thestomach, and there are lots of
chemical reactions going on,trying to break down, because it

(41:15):
by the time that food leavesyour stomach, it has to be in a
liquid form so that it can beabsorbed through the blood
vessels in the first and secondpart of the small intestine.
So, in order to do that, youhave to increase blood flow to
the intestine.
It has to take blood flow fromsomewhere.

(41:36):
So it can't take it from theheart, because that has to
continue to function.
It can take some from themuscles because you're
essentially not doing anything.
It'll take a little bit, itcan't take it from the lungs,
because you still got to breathein and out to get oxygen and
get rid of carbon dioxide, andit'll take a tiny bismidgen from

(41:58):
the brain.
And that's just enough to makepeople doze off.

Yeah.
I actually knew I went to apresentation, it was a chap who
was the strength coach for thePittsburgh Steelers.
So he was quite animposing-looking fellow, young
luck with his cowboy boots andeverything on.
And he just said at the startof the presentation, it was
about two o'clock, he said, Iknow you assholes are all gonna
fall asleep in here, and I'mgonna challenge each and every

(42:25):
one of you.
And so he would, if he sawsomeone fall asleep, he said,
Don't you fall asleep on me?
It had the desired effect.
It was probably a bit moredirect than yours, Dr.
K.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I also could remember, and it'sa brief little story, but I
think everyone's faced it atsome point.
We used to have a meeting whenDr.
K and I worked for a healthservices department.

(42:46):
Used to happen on a Wednesdayabout three o'clock.
Yes.
And let's just say thepresenter wasn't the most
exciting.
No names, no names, but hewasn't the most exciting.
He had a one-level voice.
There was no modulation to keepyou awake, no agenda for the
meeting so that you could tickit off and say, oh, we're nearly
finished.
So you just sat in there inthis one long room, and it

(43:09):
fitted about ten people inthere.
And if you if people tend togravitate to their own corner,
so I'd found a little one whereI could sit behind someone.
If I started to doze off, hewouldn't see me.
But this day I got in late.
I'd taught a boxing class andcame in and it was I got into it
late.
All the seats were taken.
So I had to sit next to him,next to the presenter, but I sat

(43:33):
back a little bit, so hecouldn't actually see me.
And I thought to myself, God, Ihope I'm not going to fall
asleep in here.
And I was doing all my skillsas a former mussage therapist.
I was pressing my ears andpressure points on my legs and
the neck, and I'd film myselffalling asleep, and I thought,
no, I'm okay, I'm okay.
No one's noticed, no one'snoticed.

(43:53):
I did this for about an hour,and I thought, I got out of this
okay.
No one noticed a thing untilDr.
Kennedy and one of his femalecolleagues came up to me later
and said, Mike, you've got tosit there more often.
We were just killing ourselveslaughing that you've fallen
asleep the whole time.
Yes.
So I thought I was being Mr.
Smart.
No one noticed.
So I've had it both as apresenter and as an participant.

(44:20):
It's it's devastating.
It's devastating.
But as a presenter, you've gotto do definitely employ some
different tactics.
Yeah, you do.
You can go Dr.
K's route, the gentler route,or the Pittsburgh Steeler guy.
Find a which way, I guess.
Oh yes.
Oh yes.
So just I know we've got aKettle's gotta leave us soon, so

(44:41):
let's move along to our nexttopic here.
How does lack of sleep affectthings like decision-making,
works, work performance, evenrelationships?
I guess that thing calledmental fog, Dr.
K.

Yeah.
It's true.
If if it happens continuouslyenough, you're going to find
that you're not as focused,you're not as alert.
Things that, you know, that youif you're in a meeting, you're
in a meeting with your couple ofcolleagues and the subject
matter that's being talkedabout, yet you have difficulty

(45:16):
pulling forward the thoughtsthat need to come out because
you haven't been sleeping well.
And when you're not gettingenough sleep, and again, this
goes back to the body needs to,it needs a certain amount of
sleep in order to function.
Sleep is, like I said earlier,is that restorative phase for

(45:36):
our body.
And it helps with memory, ithelps with focus, it helps with
attention span.
It helps when you get propersleep now, it decreases
irritability.
It helps you so that you canprevent those periods of fog and
things like that.

(45:57):
Because a lot of people, and alot of people start to say, I'm
getting old, I can't rememberlike I used to, and that's the
reason why.
But many times it's justbecause the sleep pattern.
And this goes back to whenyou're under stress.
And so going to work for somepeople can be stressful.
Going to school can bestressful.

(46:17):
And so how you manage thosestressors, and if you're someone
who's a more sedentaryindividual, you don't burn off
the energy, you don't create thebalance between the all the
stimulating chemicals that thebody uses to the relaxing

(46:38):
chemicals that the body uses, weget into trouble.
But and this again, theprobably the most important
thing is getting a routine thatworks for you so that you can
figure out how many hours ofsleep.
And if by doing it the sametime all the time, your body
will automatic automaticallystart to fall into the pattern

(47:01):
at the end of the day when it'seight o'clock, and typically
you're in bed by 8:30, your bodyis already preparing itself to
go to sleep if you've been doingit regularly.
Sure, of course, every now andthen you're not going to be able
to.
But as long as it's notsomething that's becoming a
pattern, it should be okay.

(47:22):
A routine, a sleep schedule,even having a diary, things that
help.
So there are people who willwake up in the middle of the
night.
Some people wake up three, fourin the morning and can't go
back to sleep.
And now that's an interestingtime because that is the time
that the body is actuallyincreasing the release of

(47:43):
cortisol, one of our stimulatingchemicals.
And so if it's being released,then you had not now, in order
for the person to wake up atthat time, it may have been that
they never really got into thedeep sleep or the REM sleep to
begin with.
And it's why having the room asquiet as possible, not having

(48:10):
light in the room, soft music,things like that.
Now, if you can't go back tosleep, they say if you're laying
in the bed wide awake for 20minutes, you need to get up.
Because if you stay there,you're actually now starting to
teach your body that, okay, whenI wake up, I'm gonna stay

(48:33):
awake.
And once your body starts toget into that pattern
repeatedly, the next thing youknow, the next night you're
doing the same thing.
And the night after that,you're doing the same thing.
So then, simple thing.
Sometimes doing something, wethey call it doing something
dull, but I'd say pick a bookthat is always you always felt
boring.

(48:53):
So for a lot of us, it isreading the books that we were
learning our skill set on.
So for me, it's reading amedical journal.
I know that in 10, 15 minutes,if I'm reading it, I'm gonna be
dozing off.
Just because that's the way itis.
And or put on your music.

(49:14):
It's okay to listen to podcastsas long as they're not podcasts
that are asking you tostimulate your mind.
Because your mind should bequieting down, it should be
slowing itself down.
So you need to find thosethings: music, meditation, deep

(49:35):
breathing.
There's this, what is itcalled?
It's the 478 rule.
Yes, the four, seven, eightrule, where you tell the person
you hold your breath for fourseconds, then you breathe out
for seven seconds, and then youbreathe in for eight seconds,

(49:56):
and you do that repeatedly.
And what you're doing is you'rerelaxing all to do that, you're
relaxing and contracting allyour muscles, which is also
telling your brain, slow down.
So there are different ways toaffect that.
Just now, it it does no good toget up and go have some

(50:16):
chamomile tea at that point intime.
Don't turn the television on toanything, just don't turn it on
because the blue light itselfdon't stay away from your social
media and everything an hourand a half before you go to bed.

Yeah, definitely.

Being in a cool, dark room works.
It can indefinitely work.

Yeah.
Kittle, are you have anyquestions from an economic
standpoint?

There are studies that actually there are quite a
lot of costs to a lack of sleepin most industrial countries.
What is your comment on that,Dr.
Kennedy?

That there's a lack of sleep in the
industrial world, more?

Yeah, yeah.
So they're talking about one totwo hours in the US on average,
and that actually reduces theproductivity.

My I the it in theory it makes sense.
I don't know, I don't know howaccurate.
I've not I've not read about itto that degree, but in theory
it makes sense that one could beless productive.

So I take it this way (51:22):
if a person is not getting enough
sleep, and the way I would lookat it is whatever it is that
they're doing for theireight-hour job, if they're not
getting enough sleep, somewhereduring that eight hours, they're
gonna feel like they need tocatch up with the sleep that
they haven't been getting.

(51:43):
And if they're doing that, thenthey're not being productive.
Indirectly, if you have 30% ofyour workforce who's having that
problem, you should not besurprised that the production
drops as a consequence.
That makes perfect sense to me.
Yeah.
And also when you go to morecultural climates and the less

(52:04):
industrialized world, one of thethings that you notice that
most of those people do is theywork, they move throughout the
day.
So that when their day is done,they wind down.
And again, it's almost like aroutine.
They get up really early, go towork, they eat, then they go to
work, have a break for lunch,then finish the afternoon work,

(52:27):
and then they come back home,gather with the family, and then
go to sleep and start theroutine all over again.
So, from that perspective,their production is consistent
because what is it?
They have a routine and aschedule that they follow day in
and day out.
Yeah, it's uh it makes sense.
It makes perfect sense.

Okay.
All right.
Let's turn to now, guys, givingour listeners something to work
with.
Let me ask you, Dr.
Code, what uh threescience-backed tips for better
sleep, what would you thinkwould be the three regular
things a person can do to getbetter sleep?
To get better sleep?

Yeah.
First, have a sleep schedule, aregular sleep-wake schedule
where that you figure out whattime you wake up, what time you
go to sleep.
In between that, how muchexercise I'm going to do.
And making sure my exercise isover at least an hour and a half

(53:29):
to two hours before you'rescheduled to go to sleep.
To make sure you, when you eat,and at the end, particularly
toward the evening, eat a lessheavy meal.
Leave a less spicy meal.
If you know that going to bedis at eight o'clock, then by six
o'clock you need to havefinished eating, particularly if
it's a heavier meal and spicymeal.

Okay.

And again, limit the your screen time to at
least one hour before bed stop.
At least one hour before bedstop.
Looking at your computer, yourphone, your tablet, turn the TV
off, make sure the room is dark,it's cooler, because we sleep

(54:14):
better when it's cooler.
There's no question about that.
And it's okay.
Some people like, some peoplelove to have music playing
before they go to sleep.
Some people like, you know,what we call white noise sounds.
Whatever, whatever works foryou to put you into, and to me,
this is more about routine.

Yeah.
And your environment too.

Routine and your environment, for sure.

All right, guys, before we wrap, let's each
share one actionable takeawayfor our listeners.
Dr.
K, what would yours be forbetter sleep?

Again, respect your routine.
Your body retri thrives on therhythm.
Just do that and you're leapyears ahead.

Okay.

Kettle?

Yeah, so a little bit different.
Go with the flow.
Listen to your body.
You need to sleep.
Sleep if you need to eat.

Dave Liss (55:07):
Okay.
All right.
Dive?
I think I'd like to learn fromDr.
Kennedy.
I think I want to live likeKettle says, but I know I need
to really live like what Dr.
Kennedy says.
Because I think I can get awaywith just doing whatever I want,
and I can't, and I don't have aroutine, and I'm all over the
place, and I have to take napswhenever I can find full time.

(55:28):
So I think I need to I might Iaspire to be Kettle, but I know
I need to live like Dr.
Kennedy.

unknown (55:34):
Okay.

Don't live like me, Dave.
That's one thing I'll tell you.
I just wrap up by saying it'syou can't be perfect.
We've all got different thingsin our lives that makes us not
follow a routine from some time.
But we try to be as consistentas we can, just like we do with
our workouts, same with oursleep routine.
And if I could, and Dr.
K, you might help me with thisone.
Some further reading orreputable sites to look at about

(55:57):
sleep studies.
I believe Hopkins Medicine isone.
Yeah.

Dr. Richar (56:01):
Hopkinsmedicine.org, the mayo clinic.org.

Webmd.com, okay.
And you said Cleveland Clinic,was that another one?

Cleveland Clinic.org.

Okay.
Great.
All right, there's some good.
Okay.
Or give Kettle a call.
He'll be able to help you.
Sleep.
Bye-bye.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
On that note, folks, that's itfor today's episode of Wellness
and Musketeers.
We hope you're walking awaywith a few tools to start
sleeping smarter and livingbetter.
Sign up for our newsletter atwww.ozzymikeJames.com for bonus

(56:38):
content and tips.
If you enjoyed this episode, dous a solid.
Hit follow or subscribe.
Leave us a great review.
Share this with a friend whoneeds more sleep, stacking
disease, as they say, and dropus a comment.
We'd love to know your go toslip tip or question.

Folks, thanks for tuning in.
Now go get some rest.
You have earned it.
Sleep well.

And until next time, stay informed, stay
rested, and stay well.

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