February 18, 2024 • 26 mins
Discover the unexpected wisdom of tango with Sharna Fabiano, an renowned tango artist and author, who speaks on the dance's profound reflection of life's social intricacies and leadership roles. Your episode host, Ketil Hviding, reflects on his journey through martial arts and tango and what the dance has taught him about the subtle art of leading and following, a dance of skills that extends far beyond the dance floor and into the very fabric of our daily lives. Sharna's words, drawn from her book, Lead and Follow, resonate as a testament to the essence of partnership, revealing how this art form is much more than steps and routines—it's a metaphor for community, connection, and the balance between giving and receiving in relationships.
As the episode evolves, we wade into the nuanced waters of workplace dynamics—a mirror to the lead-and-follow of tango. Touching on pay equity and organizational hierarchy, we challenge the status quo, asking tough questions about the true value of each role within a team. Ponder the essence of 'followership,' a concept too often overshadowed by traditional leadership narratives, but one that's indispensable in achieving harmony both in business and in social settings. The insights from this episode might just inspire you to observe the dance of leadership and followership in your own life, recognizing the intricate steps and turns that make up the choreography of effective collaboration and trust.
Learn more about Sharna's work and listen to her podcast:
As the episode evolves, we wade into the nuanced waters of workplace dynamics—a mirror to the lead-and-follow of tango. Touching on pay equity and organizational hierarchy, we challenge the status quo, asking tough questions about the true value of each role within a team. Ponder the essence of 'followership,' a concept too often overshadowed by traditional leadership narratives, but one that's indispensable in achieving harmony both in business and in social settings. The insights from this episode might just inspire you to observe the dance of leadership and followership in your own life, recognizing the intricate steps and turns that make up the choreography of effective collaboration and trust.
Learn more about Sharna's work and listen to her podcast:
- https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
- https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/:
- Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork
- https://open.spotify.com/show/6EhNZX3L6kvfqt8xSslG1A?si=292eb8b149b948a5
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Musketeers podcast,
the podcast discussing wellness, fitness and, more broadly, the
art of living.
I'm your host, kettle Weeding,a retiree from the International
Wonder Fund with 24 years ofservice.
During my last two years at thefund, I served as a co-chair of
(00:27):
its health, safety andenvironmental committee.
I have been practicing andteaching various martial arts,
such as Taekwondo, jiu Jitsu andTaichi.
I have also been dancing tangofor about five to six years.
In today's episode, we will bediscussing the lessons from the
(00:47):
dance of tango for socialinteraction how we can become
better dancers, fellow workers,leaders and followers.
We discussed the costs of overemphasizing leadership at the
expense of cooperation and theessential role of followership.
(01:08):
Our guest today is Shana Fabiano, who is an internationally
recognized tango artist and theauthor of a recent book Lead and
Follow the Dance of InspiredTeamwork.
Over the course of her 20-yeardance career, she thought
thousands of people hoped bothlead and follow with grace.
(01:29):
Now she's taken her expertiseoff the dance floor and into the
wilder world to help peoplecreate healthier relationships
in life and work.
Shana is a certified coach andcompleted her master's fine arts
in dance at UCLA.
Welcome Shana.
As you know, we both share anexperience as tango dancers.
(01:53):
You have studied tango since1997 and have learned both
leader and follower roles.
Personally, I've mostly beenfocusing on the leader role, but
I've also recently become muchmore interested in understanding
the follower role, not theleast to become a better dancer.
I also have in front of me yourbook Lead and Follow, and
(02:16):
actually starts off with a verynice introduction.
I wonder whether you canactually read that and tell the
listener something about how weactually start the dancing tango
.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I'd love to Kettle and thank you very much for
inviting me on the podcast.
Here's the introduction.
There are approximately 10 feetbetween your chair and the edge
of the dance floor.
You are seated at a small cafetable and the tall stranger, the
leader, is standing calmly infront of you.
Eye Contact confirms yoursilent agreement to become
(02:48):
partners for the next set ofdances.
This moment is sacred a tinypocket of time in which you both
acknowledge that, although youare individuals, you will now
come together to play the rolesof leader and follower a
creative team, interdependent.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Thank you very much.
That's very nice.
Maybe you can say a little bitmore about how you actually
started dancing tango.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Sure.
Well, the quick version is thatI stumbled into tango by
accident, like many of us, backin 1997, while experimenting
with lots of other social dancesballroom, salsa, swing.
I know I tried it all and mytango obsession story is
probably similar to many others.
I walked in and I saw peopledoing this incredibly intricate
(03:39):
set of footwork and I thought,wow, this is more complex and
poetic than anything I've seenbefore.
And that comes, I learned later, from the fact that the tango
has no basic steps, so it's veryunique in that way.
It's not like a mirror image ofyour partner, as many other
dances are.
The leading and following rolesare really distinct, so I was
(03:59):
fascinated by that from animprovisational point of view.
And as far as the two roles youmentioned, I have studied both.
I was very lucky right at thebeginning.
At the end of my first tangoclass, the instructors, one man
and one woman, performed anexchange of lead and follow and
that just changed everything forme, changed all my expectations
(04:21):
of what social dance could be,and I got really excited to
learn both roles.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
You also founded Tango Mercurio, a DC-based
nonprofit with a mission toincrease social creation through
dance, of which I am currentlya board member.
Can you tell us what made youstart this nonprofit Sure?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
And first of all thank you for being a board
member.
Very important work.
I'm very happy to know thatTango Mercurio still exists.
I'll go back to my earlyexperience of Tango, actually
because it was very much a DIYtype of experience.
In the late 90s there were veryfew Tango schools and very few
local teachers in North America,and so if you wanted to learn,
(05:06):
either you had to do a lot oftraveling or you had to pitch in
with your local Tango group andorganize a workshop or organize
a practice, organize like avideo night.
So learning and dancing Tangowere wrapped together with
helping out with all theselogistical tasks, and so those
two just have always been linkedtogether in my mind.
(05:29):
And although eventually I didearn money from Tango and I was
again very lucky to be one ofthose people who could earn a
living teaching Tango for ashort period of time, relatively
speaking, it was always reallyclear to me that Tango writ
large, like the whole Tangocommunity globally, it only
occurs.
It only happens because lots andlots of people give their time
(05:53):
for free.
I was one of those few teacherswho could make a living, but
that's only possible because atthe same time there's thousands
of people running events,putting out flyers, helping out
at the door, doing things likethat.
So it already is a nonprofitenterprise right, like the whole
Tango community, and when itbecame my business I thought
(06:14):
that should be the model right.
It should be a nonprofit modelbecause that's what it is really
the whole community and it wasalso a way to recognize all that
work that people do.
That I once did and now I hadtons of volunteers helping me
run my classes and my events,and it was a way to invite
public funds.
I really do believe that socialdance is a public good, social
(06:35):
good, and that civic entitiesshould support it.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
You read the passage from the book and it's clear to
many who will be watching Tangothat it's an intriguing dance.
It definitely can attractpeople and it's difficult to do.
But there's also the connectionaspect.
You have to deal with anotherhuman being, you have to connect
.
It's really important for evento be able to dance the simple
(07:03):
step.
So the Tango Mercurio as asubmission to talk about.
You talked about socialcohesion.
Can you explain a little bithow actually Tango is dance, or
any dance that can help withsocial cohesion?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Sure, I think it helps in lots of ways.
One, it gets people interactingwith each other without their
phones, without the sort ofdigital interference, and I
think we've forgotten howimportant that is and how
healthy it is to just be witheach other physically and
(07:41):
interact, doing anything really.
But dancing is creative, so itbuilds relationships very
quickly.
I can tell you that most of theimportant people in my life I
met through dance.
So that's a short answer.
There's more.
There's a physical benefits.
You learn about emotionalintelligence, relational
(08:03):
intelligence.
There are a lot of thingsembedded in Tango, almost like a
mind-body practice.
I've heard people compare itoften to yoga or even meditation
, in the way that you learn tobe with yourself, be with the
other person.
There's lots of good benefitsthere as well.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So in dance, can you tell us a little bit more about
how a leader needs to beattentive to the followers, and
vice versa for that matter?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And for those of you listenerswho don't know anything about
Tango, one really interestingpart of it I alluded to earlier
is that the roles are notsymmetrical, so they're the
leader and follower not doingthe same thing.
So the easiest way tounderstand that, I think, is to
talk about what the focus is ineach role.
(08:56):
So the leader in the dancingcouple has their attention out
almost all the time.
They are directing the couple,they're protecting the partner
from crashes, they are managingthe floor, the dance floor space
, right, navigating around in acircle with all the other
couples, while the follower, onthe other hand, their attention
(09:18):
is mostly in it's on their ownexperience of the dance, the
sensation of moving, the qualityof movement, the expression of
every individual step.
So it's like a macro, bigpicture, small picture type of
distribution of labor.
The leader is like assemblingthe dance, like start to finish,
like a project manager almost,and the follower is breathing
(09:40):
life into the dance in everymoment, right, attending to all
the details.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That's very nice.
Most listeners may not be Tangodancers, but you also have
quite a lot to say aboutmanagement and life in journal
inspired by your Tangoexperience.
Could you tell us a bit moreabout how you started to think
that there are wider lessons forhow we work together?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Honestly, I don't think this idea comes from me.
When I was teaching full time,I was spending most of my time
in dance studios, so it wasn'tme who was like going to the
office and seeing theseparallels, it was my students.
So I have lots of reallyfascinating conversations with
my Tango students who theythemselves were going to offices
and going to workplaces andthey would come into their class
(10:25):
and say, oh, I totally get it,I'm doing too much here with my
partner, I'm trying to controlthings.
I need to back off a little andlet them move a little more
freely.
And then they would say, oh, Itotally do that.
At work, I try to micromanage myteam because I get anxious, but
I just need to trust them alittle more and then our
workflow will be better.
So they started making theseanalogies for me and it got me
(10:49):
really curious, right?
So when I eventually thenchanged careers, become a coach,
I thought there's somethinghere, right.
I want to explore that andthat's what led to the book
right, lead and follow, where Isought to translate all of these
amazing insights and wisdomfrom Tango partnership into
language, into written language,so that other people, even if
(11:11):
they never try to dance classcould benefit right from those
insights, from that wisdom.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Apart from our joint low of Tango, the other reason
that they invited you to talkabout, the tour listeners that
were struck by your emphasis onthe importance of followership.
I've actually personally been abit uncomfortable with the
management's emphasis onleadership.
Maybe that's because I comefrom a very egalitarian culture
(11:40):
of actually Norway, wherestanding out is frowned upon,
not only a good thing, but itdefinitely is a cultural aspect,
creating more egalitariansociety.
But how is followershipimportant in organizations more
broadly?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
We could be here all day talking about that, but I'll
try to give you a conciseanswer.
And first I want to say I thinkyou're absolutely right to
point that out that there is areally strong leader bias right
here in US culture anyway, and Ithink we can tell people that,
like, point it out, because it'sa little strange really that we
say, oh, these people are moreimportant.
(12:21):
But I also want to acknowledge,on the other side, followership
for listeners might be atotally new term.
I get that.
It's not in the mainstreamdiscourse and it may even feel a
little cringy, a little icky,right, followership is no, we
don't want to be following,right, so that's there.
And that's because we've allbeen taught for decades and
(12:44):
decades that leadership is goodand followership is bad, right.
So it's a very kind of blackand white type of construct
we've all inherited.
And so if you're listening tothis and thinking, yeah, I am
cool with leadership, leadershipis great, I do that, but not
following, I'm not a follower,I'm not a loser, so you're not
(13:04):
alone in thinking that's thecultural bias, right, you're
noticing.
So, having said that, theproblem with this good, bad
binary is one that it's false,right, they all know that bad
leaders exist and unfortunately,we've probably all worked for
some of them.
So being a leader or having atitle doesn't just make you a
(13:26):
good leader, right?
Automatically, like you have towork at that, just like a
dancer would.
And two, it creates thistendency for us to label all the
good things that we see in awork environment as leadership,
right, which can be prettyconfusing.
You're a good listener, you'reshowing great leadership, you
(13:46):
land a contract great leadership.
You speak up about a problemgreat leadership, right, it's
all a great leadership.
And what do these things haveto do with each other?
Not a lot, right, but we'rejust used to being like okay,
leading good.
So that's the second problem.
It just makes it reallyconfusing what we really value.
So it turns out that leadershipand followership really only
(14:10):
makes sense together if you lookat them as a pair, like we do
in dance.
So I'm gonna give you two waysto think about that relationship
.
Number one is positionally.
So your positional roles.
You are rank or title in anorganization, so it's what it
sounds like Someone's above you,someone's below you, right?
So if you're a team leader,then you lead your direct
(14:34):
reports, but you also followyour own supervisor, right.
So you have these two leadfollow conversations happening
all the time.
The second way to think aboutleading and following is
situational roles.
So situational roles are, forme, more interesting because
they are fluid.
They change throughout the day,sometimes they change even hour
(14:55):
to hour.
For example, you can actuallylead your boss in a conversation
if you happen to be the subjectmatter expert or if you have a
list of questions you need toget answered.
You're leading thatconversation, right, you're
steering it, but you can alsofollow your direct report.
Say they're happening tofacilitate a meeting right On a
(15:19):
certain project.
You attend the meeting, but youdon't steer it.
They're steering it and you'remaybe asking some questions
along the way.
So that's situational.
And if you listeners out therereflect a little on your own
experience, I'm willing to betthat you can spot these right.
Especially the positional iseasy.
Right, you know what your titleis, but you can spot the
(15:41):
situational leadership too ifyou just think through your day
or your week and all yourappointments, and it's natural
to us as humans to do that right.
It's like a conversation, likego back and forth.
That's how things happen.
Leadership alone does not makethings happen.
I know we've been taught thatleadership is influence,
leadership is choosing, but thereality is everybody is
(16:03):
influencing everyone else allthe time, just in different ways
.
So it's leadership andfollowership interacting right
you with your boss, you withyour direct report that's what
makes things happen, and whenyou start to see that dynamic in
your everyday experience, a lotof things make more sense.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So I have actually some experience, as you put a
positional managerial leadershipin my career and I was pretty
much in my organization,international Monetary Fund.
I was thrown into this rolepretty much unprepared, so the
first thing you start thinkingabout is I'm a leader, I need to
(16:44):
give good instructions.
Okay, to some extent, it's true, you cannot give confusing
instructions.
That's also true in dance.
But then it really dawns on youafter a while the importance of
not only listening butestablishing a co-creational
relationship with your team, andthat's where you really get it.
(17:07):
But it's hard and many willhave to do journey on their own.
Many don't even so.
That's why what you're sayingis I'm really understanding it
from a personal experience Ihave some more big questions.
I think there is also a genderdimension of this.
(17:33):
So it's true in dance, in tango, that most leaders are
typically men.
It's true in organization thatmost leaders are men, at least
the positional one.
Is it a reflection of apatriarchal society or is it
(17:53):
something else going on there?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think we know we need to bring in an army of
historians and sociologistsmaybe to answer that question,
but my MFA dance experienceopinion is that, yes, it's an
artifact of patriarchal society.
Just remember all of thesestructures, like both social
dance itself and the structureof a company.
These were both invented undera patriarchal social order.
(18:22):
It just is what it is.
We just have to call it what itis.
The society was set up withthat set of values and the
dances were created in thatsociety.
So we now have the sort oflingering relic of that which is
on social dance floors.
We have the expectation thatmen lead and women follow.
(18:45):
In companies there's agenerational pattern of men
leading.
Now that women are working,which is fairly recent, they
started in that lower followingrole, so it is a little bit like
this inheritance of that oldstructure that is, of course,
(19:05):
changing.
In terms of dance itself, Iwould say there's nothing wrong
with men leading and womenfollowing.
People love that.
Let them do it.
I also love it.
I just also love dancing withwomen in both roles.
I also love leading men whofollow.
I love it all, and that's justwhat gives me pleasure, but
(19:29):
everyone gets to choose whatthey want, right.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I think it's actually quite interesting when you're
actually following a little ofwhat's going on in Argentina,
although that is a verytraditional society in many ways
, but it's also, in many ways, asociety that has many norms,
actually trying new things, andinside that tango, I would say
many of the things that comesout from the younger generation
(19:53):
in Argentina has a lot to dowith changing roles, thinking
more carefully about thefollowers role, etc.
So I think that's reallyencouraging from the tango scene
side.
I have to ask this question aswell.
You mentioned that in companies, the leaders are valued more,
(20:17):
and this is also true.
There was a paid more and, inmany cases, a much more.
What do we do with this?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I commend you for asking the question.
I actually think this is areally important question to ask
right now, especially.
Right, we're facing multiplecrises, right, climate, economic
, social, like.
Something has to change and,yes, you're absolutely right to
call this out.
We definitely overvalue.
(20:49):
I would call it supervision,right, I don't even want to call
it leadership because in myview, in a company, everyone is
doing leading and following ifit's working well, but we
definitely overvalue thosesupervisory positions compared
to what everyone else is doing.
Yeah, and I'm not at allconvinced that is the most
optimal way to do good worktogether, to incentivize good
(21:13):
work together.
So I want to be clear it's okay, it's totally fine for some
people to earn more than others,based on good reasons maybe
more responsibility, moreeducation, more expertise.
There are lots of reasons toadjust the rates of pay.
But here's what I wonder,kettle, maybe we'll leave this
for listeners to ponder too, Ifa company were a democratic
(21:37):
entity, would we choose thissame org chart, right?
This same stratification ofsalaries, or would we make up
something else Right?
If we were choosing, how wouldwe pay ourselves for the work we
do together?
I think that's a reallyintriguing thing to consider,
and I think if we start thinkingabout that together, we might
come up with some prettycreative systems of reward and
(22:00):
incentive that would then makecareer more interesting and
varied.
So right now, there's just oneway to move your career, like up
the supervisory chain, butmaybe there's other ways to
develop your career that couldbe equally rewarding.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I had to ask that question.
I'm an economist, so I kind ofstopped myself.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I would love to hear your thoughts on that, Kettle.
It's a really importantquestion.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I actually don't have an answer, unfortunately, but I
do think that it brings up andI know it's not very popular to
talk about communism in thiscountry, but the ideal that
you're being paid for you'rebeing paid how much you actually
need and that's it, and theyget a terrarium.
(22:46):
Society is better in many ways.
It still is true.
Question is actually how tobring it about and still having
a free people.
So I do think it's a veryfundamental thing I do.
One of the thing we also shouldnot forget is that how much
people are being paid is not howmuch they're worth, and I think
(23:08):
even starting there it can helpus to understand a little bit
of where we're gonna go forward.
But, of course, how do youorganize companies?
In a way, I don't think we can.
Putting two strict structureson.
That can be hard.
There are, of course, been manyattempts of having much more
democratic companies and somework and some don't work.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
It's not straightforward I think it's a
great.
It's a great question, is agreat thing to think about and I
wanted to just throw out afantastic resource for listeners
on this subject.
Not specifically leading andfalling, but Wonderful book by
rose hackman called emotionallabor, just out in the end of
march and incredibly wellresearched, very accessible,
(23:57):
high recommend.
She explores this question indepth the question of value, the
question of what we considerwork, what we consider paid work
, unpaid work or underpaid oroverpaid work.
It's incredible so I highlyrecommend it.
Rose hackman, emotional labor.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Thank you very much for the recommendation.
Thanks a lot for this insight.
It is clear that we opened up alarge number of questions, and
I did a lot of the organizersociety, the role of leadership,
the pay structure, gender rolesand also the value of human
(24:35):
beings, but I don't think wereally have time in this short
podcast that well too much intothis last area.
Suffice it to say theimportance of a christian
fellowship carries the seed of amore productive and egalitarian
society in itself.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Any last remarks I just well said.
I really believe that too,because when we start to see a
followership happening right andrecognize its value, what it
does is it creates a moreinclusive environment right in
any group, because we suddenlysee, oh, everyone's doing
something all the time.
We need to value all that work.
(25:13):
So I would leave listeners witha maybe a tiny little
assignment, which is just to gothrough the rest of your week
and every time you interact witha co worker, colleague or even
Co volunteer if you're in acommunity organization, just
start to notice when you are ina leadership role meaning like
when are you steering thesituation and when are you
(25:35):
actually in a followership rolewhere you are participating in a
situation that somebody else issteering and just notice that's
it.
Just start noticing that flowback and forth.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Thank you for joining us for this episode.
You have provided greatinsights and food for thought.
Thank you, listeners, fortuning in for this episode of
wellness musketeers.
If you found this podcastinteresting, please check out
charna's book lead and followthe dance of inspired teamwork.
She also has her own podcastlead and follow, available
(26:09):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
All of this information andmore, such as few videos and the
description of her coachingservice, can be found on her
website, www.
Shana Fabianocom.
You can check the podcast notesfor the link.
(26:29):
Please share this podcast withyour friends and family and
subscribe for upcoming episodes,as we'll give you tools to
improve your health, workperformance and just live a more
balanced life.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Musketeers podcast,
the podcast discussing wellness, fitness and, more broadly, the
art of living.
I'm your host, kettle Weeding,a retiree from the International
Wonder Fund with 24 years ofservice.
During my last two years at thefund, I served as a co-chair of
(00:27):
its health, safety andenvironmental committee.
I have been practicing andteaching various martial arts,
such as Taekwondo, jiu Jitsu andTaichi.
I have also been dancing tangofor about five to six years.
In today's episode, we will bediscussing the lessons from the
(00:47):
dance of tango for socialinteraction how we can become
better dancers, fellow workers,leaders and followers.
We discussed the costs of overemphasizing leadership at the
expense of cooperation and theessential role of followership.
(01:08):
Our guest today is Shana Fabiano, who is an internationally
recognized tango artist and theauthor of a recent book Lead and
Follow the Dance of InspiredTeamwork.
Over the course of her 20-yeardance career, she thought
thousands of people hoped bothlead and follow with grace.
(01:29):
Now she's taken her expertiseoff the dance floor and into the
wilder world to help peoplecreate healthier relationships
in life and work.
Shana is a certified coach andcompleted her master's fine arts
in dance at UCLA.
Welcome Shana.
As you know, we both share anexperience as tango dancers.
(01:53):
You have studied tango since1997 and have learned both
leader and follower roles.
Personally, I've mostly beenfocusing on the leader role, but
I've also recently become muchmore interested in understanding
the follower role, not theleast to become a better dancer.
I also have in front of me yourbook Lead and Follow, and
(02:16):
actually starts off with a verynice introduction.
I wonder whether you canactually read that and tell the
listener something about how weactually start the dancing tango
.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I'd love to Kettle and thank you very much for
inviting me on the podcast.
Here's the introduction.
There are approximately 10 feetbetween your chair and the edge
of the dance floor.
You are seated at a small cafetable and the tall stranger, the
leader, is standing calmly infront of you.
Eye Contact confirms yoursilent agreement to become
(02:48):
partners for the next set ofdances.
This moment is sacred a tinypocket of time in which you both
acknowledge that, although youare individuals, you will now
come together to play the rolesof leader and follower a
creative team, interdependent.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Thank you very much.
That's very nice.
Maybe you can say a little bitmore about how you actually
started dancing tango.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Sure.
Well, the quick version is thatI stumbled into tango by
accident, like many of us, backin 1997, while experimenting
with lots of other social dancesballroom, salsa, swing.
I know I tried it all and mytango obsession story is
probably similar to many others.
I walked in and I saw peopledoing this incredibly intricate
(03:39):
set of footwork and I thought,wow, this is more complex and
poetic than anything I've seenbefore.
And that comes, I learned later, from the fact that the tango
has no basic steps, so it's veryunique in that way.
It's not like a mirror image ofyour partner, as many other
dances are.
The leading and following rolesare really distinct, so I was
(03:59):
fascinated by that from animprovisational point of view.
And as far as the two roles youmentioned, I have studied both.
I was very lucky right at thebeginning.
At the end of my first tangoclass, the instructors, one man
and one woman, performed anexchange of lead and follow and
that just changed everything forme, changed all my expectations
(04:21):
of what social dance could be,and I got really excited to
learn both roles.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
You also founded Tango Mercurio, a DC-based
nonprofit with a mission toincrease social creation through
dance, of which I am currentlya board member.
Can you tell us what made youstart this nonprofit Sure?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
And first of all thank you for being a board
member.
Very important work.
I'm very happy to know thatTango Mercurio still exists.
I'll go back to my earlyexperience of Tango, actually
because it was very much a DIYtype of experience.
In the late 90s there were veryfew Tango schools and very few
local teachers in North America,and so if you wanted to learn,
(05:06):
either you had to do a lot oftraveling or you had to pitch in
with your local Tango group andorganize a workshop or organize
a practice, organize like avideo night.
So learning and dancing Tangowere wrapped together with
helping out with all theselogistical tasks, and so those
two just have always been linkedtogether in my mind.
(05:29):
And although eventually I didearn money from Tango and I was
again very lucky to be one ofthose people who could earn a
living teaching Tango for ashort period of time, relatively
speaking, it was always reallyclear to me that Tango writ
large, like the whole Tangocommunity globally, it only
occurs.
It only happens because lots andlots of people give their time
(05:53):
for free.
I was one of those few teacherswho could make a living, but
that's only possible because atthe same time there's thousands
of people running events,putting out flyers, helping out
at the door, doing things likethat.
So it already is a nonprofitenterprise right, like the whole
Tango community, and when itbecame my business I thought
(06:14):
that should be the model right.
It should be a nonprofit modelbecause that's what it is really
the whole community and it wasalso a way to recognize all that
work that people do.
That I once did and now I hadtons of volunteers helping me
run my classes and my events,and it was a way to invite
public funds.
I really do believe that socialdance is a public good, social
(06:35):
good, and that civic entitiesshould support it.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
You read the passage from the book and it's clear to
many who will be watching Tangothat it's an intriguing dance.
It definitely can attractpeople and it's difficult to do.
But there's also the connectionaspect.
You have to deal with anotherhuman being, you have to connect
.
It's really important for evento be able to dance the simple
(07:03):
step.
So the Tango Mercurio as asubmission to talk about.
You talked about socialcohesion.
Can you explain a little bithow actually Tango is dance, or
any dance that can help withsocial cohesion?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Sure, I think it helps in lots of ways.
One, it gets people interactingwith each other without their
phones, without the sort ofdigital interference, and I
think we've forgotten howimportant that is and how
healthy it is to just be witheach other physically and
(07:41):
interact, doing anything really.
But dancing is creative, so itbuilds relationships very
quickly.
I can tell you that most of theimportant people in my life I
met through dance.
So that's a short answer.
There's more.
There's a physical benefits.
You learn about emotionalintelligence, relational
(08:03):
intelligence.
There are a lot of thingsembedded in Tango, almost like a
mind-body practice.
I've heard people compare itoften to yoga or even meditation
, in the way that you learn tobe with yourself, be with the
other person.
There's lots of good benefitsthere as well.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So in dance, can you tell us a little bit more about
how a leader needs to beattentive to the followers, and
vice versa for that matter?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And for those of you listenerswho don't know anything about
Tango, one really interestingpart of it I alluded to earlier
is that the roles are notsymmetrical, so they're the
leader and follower not doingthe same thing.
So the easiest way tounderstand that, I think, is to
talk about what the focus is ineach role.
(08:56):
So the leader in the dancingcouple has their attention out
almost all the time.
They are directing the couple,they're protecting the partner
from crashes, they are managingthe floor, the dance floor space
, right, navigating around in acircle with all the other
couples, while the follower, onthe other hand, their attention
(09:18):
is mostly in it's on their ownexperience of the dance, the
sensation of moving, the qualityof movement, the expression of
every individual step.
So it's like a macro, bigpicture, small picture type of
distribution of labor.
The leader is like assemblingthe dance, like start to finish,
like a project manager almost,and the follower is breathing
(09:40):
life into the dance in everymoment, right, attending to all
the details.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That's very nice.
Most listeners may not be Tangodancers, but you also have
quite a lot to say aboutmanagement and life in journal
inspired by your Tangoexperience.
Could you tell us a bit moreabout how you started to think
that there are wider lessons forhow we work together?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Honestly, I don't think this idea comes from me.
When I was teaching full time,I was spending most of my time
in dance studios, so it wasn'tme who was like going to the
office and seeing theseparallels, it was my students.
So I have lots of reallyfascinating conversations with
my Tango students who theythemselves were going to offices
and going to workplaces andthey would come into their class
(10:25):
and say, oh, I totally get it,I'm doing too much here with my
partner, I'm trying to controlthings.
I need to back off a little andlet them move a little more
freely.
And then they would say, oh, Itotally do that.
At work, I try to micromanage myteam because I get anxious, but
I just need to trust them alittle more and then our
workflow will be better.
So they started making theseanalogies for me and it got me
(10:49):
really curious, right?
So when I eventually thenchanged careers, become a coach,
I thought there's somethinghere, right.
I want to explore that andthat's what led to the book
right, lead and follow, where Isought to translate all of these
amazing insights and wisdomfrom Tango partnership into
language, into written language,so that other people, even if
(11:11):
they never try to dance classcould benefit right from those
insights, from that wisdom.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Apart from our joint low of Tango, the other reason
that they invited you to talkabout, the tour listeners that
were struck by your emphasis onthe importance of followership.
I've actually personally been abit uncomfortable with the
management's emphasis onleadership.
Maybe that's because I comefrom a very egalitarian culture
(11:40):
of actually Norway, wherestanding out is frowned upon,
not only a good thing, but itdefinitely is a cultural aspect,
creating more egalitariansociety.
But how is followershipimportant in organizations more
broadly?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
We could be here all day talking about that, but I'll
try to give you a conciseanswer.
And first I want to say I thinkyou're absolutely right to
point that out that there is areally strong leader bias right
here in US culture anyway, and Ithink we can tell people that,
like, point it out, because it'sa little strange really that we
say, oh, these people are moreimportant.
(12:21):
But I also want to acknowledge,on the other side, followership
for listeners might be atotally new term.
I get that.
It's not in the mainstreamdiscourse and it may even feel a
little cringy, a little icky,right, followership is no, we
don't want to be following,right, so that's there.
And that's because we've allbeen taught for decades and
(12:44):
decades that leadership is goodand followership is bad, right.
So it's a very kind of blackand white type of construct
we've all inherited.
And so if you're listening tothis and thinking, yeah, I am
cool with leadership, leadershipis great, I do that, but not
following, I'm not a follower,I'm not a loser, so you're not
(13:04):
alone in thinking that's thecultural bias, right, you're
noticing.
So, having said that, theproblem with this good, bad
binary is one that it's false,right, they all know that bad
leaders exist and unfortunately,we've probably all worked for
some of them.
So being a leader or having atitle doesn't just make you a
(13:26):
good leader, right?
Automatically, like you have towork at that, just like a
dancer would.
And two, it creates thistendency for us to label all the
good things that we see in awork environment as leadership,
right, which can be prettyconfusing.
You're a good listener, you'reshowing great leadership, you
(13:46):
land a contract great leadership.
You speak up about a problemgreat leadership, right, it's
all a great leadership.
And what do these things haveto do with each other?
Not a lot, right, but we'rejust used to being like okay,
leading good.
So that's the second problem.
It just makes it reallyconfusing what we really value.
So it turns out that leadershipand followership really only
(14:10):
makes sense together if you lookat them as a pair, like we do
in dance.
So I'm gonna give you two waysto think about that relationship
.
Number one is positionally.
So your positional roles.
You are rank or title in anorganization, so it's what it
sounds like Someone's above you,someone's below you, right?
So if you're a team leader,then you lead your direct
(14:34):
reports, but you also followyour own supervisor, right.
So you have these two leadfollow conversations happening
all the time.
The second way to think aboutleading and following is
situational roles.
So situational roles are, forme, more interesting because
they are fluid.
They change throughout the day,sometimes they change even hour
(14:55):
to hour.
For example, you can actuallylead your boss in a conversation
if you happen to be the subjectmatter expert or if you have a
list of questions you need toget answered.
You're leading thatconversation, right, you're
steering it, but you can alsofollow your direct report.
Say they're happening tofacilitate a meeting right On a
(15:19):
certain project.
You attend the meeting, but youdon't steer it.
They're steering it and you'remaybe asking some questions
along the way.
So that's situational.
And if you listeners out therereflect a little on your own
experience, I'm willing to betthat you can spot these right.
Especially the positional iseasy.
Right, you know what your titleis, but you can spot the
(15:41):
situational leadership too ifyou just think through your day
or your week and all yourappointments, and it's natural
to us as humans to do that right.
It's like a conversation, likego back and forth.
That's how things happen.
Leadership alone does not makethings happen.
I know we've been taught thatleadership is influence,
leadership is choosing, but thereality is everybody is
(16:03):
influencing everyone else allthe time, just in different ways
.
So it's leadership andfollowership interacting right
you with your boss, you withyour direct report that's what
makes things happen, and whenyou start to see that dynamic in
your everyday experience, a lotof things make more sense.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So I have actually some experience, as you put a
positional managerial leadershipin my career and I was pretty
much in my organization,international Monetary Fund.
I was thrown into this rolepretty much unprepared, so the
first thing you start thinkingabout is I'm a leader, I need to
(16:44):
give good instructions.
Okay, to some extent, it's true, you cannot give confusing
instructions.
That's also true in dance.
But then it really dawns on youafter a while the importance of
not only listening butestablishing a co-creational
relationship with your team, andthat's where you really get it.
(17:07):
But it's hard and many willhave to do journey on their own.
Many don't even so.
That's why what you're sayingis I'm really understanding it
from a personal experience Ihave some more big questions.
I think there is also a genderdimension of this.
(17:33):
So it's true in dance, in tango, that most leaders are
typically men.
It's true in organization thatmost leaders are men, at least
the positional one.
Is it a reflection of apatriarchal society or is it
(17:53):
something else going on there?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
I think we know we need to bring in an army of
historians and sociologistsmaybe to answer that question,
but my MFA dance experienceopinion is that, yes, it's an
artifact of patriarchal society.
Just remember all of thesestructures, like both social
dance itself and the structureof a company.
These were both invented undera patriarchal social order.
(18:22):
It just is what it is.
We just have to call it what itis.
The society was set up withthat set of values and the
dances were created in thatsociety.
So we now have the sort oflingering relic of that which is
on social dance floors.
We have the expectation thatmen lead and women follow.
(18:45):
In companies there's agenerational pattern of men
leading.
Now that women are working,which is fairly recent, they
started in that lower followingrole, so it is a little bit like
this inheritance of that oldstructure that is, of course,
(19:05):
changing.
In terms of dance itself, Iwould say there's nothing wrong
with men leading and womenfollowing.
People love that.
Let them do it.
I also love it.
I just also love dancing withwomen in both roles.
I also love leading men whofollow.
I love it all, and that's justwhat gives me pleasure, but
(19:29):
everyone gets to choose whatthey want, right.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I think it's actually quite interesting when you're
actually following a little ofwhat's going on in Argentina,
although that is a verytraditional society in many ways
, but it's also, in many ways, asociety that has many norms,
actually trying new things, andinside that tango, I would say
many of the things that comesout from the younger generation
(19:53):
in Argentina has a lot to dowith changing roles, thinking
more carefully about thefollowers role, etc.
So I think that's reallyencouraging from the tango scene
side.
I have to ask this question aswell.
You mentioned that in companies, the leaders are valued more,
(20:17):
and this is also true.
There was a paid more and, inmany cases, a much more.
What do we do with this?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I commend you for asking the question.
I actually think this is areally important question to ask
right now, especially.
Right, we're facing multiplecrises, right, climate, economic
, social, like.
Something has to change and,yes, you're absolutely right to
call this out.
We definitely overvalue.
(20:49):
I would call it supervision,right, I don't even want to call
it leadership because in myview, in a company, everyone is
doing leading and following ifit's working well, but we
definitely overvalue thosesupervisory positions compared
to what everyone else is doing.
Yeah, and I'm not at allconvinced that is the most
optimal way to do good worktogether, to incentivize good
(21:13):
work together.
So I want to be clear it's okay, it's totally fine for some
people to earn more than others,based on good reasons maybe
more responsibility, moreeducation, more expertise.
There are lots of reasons toadjust the rates of pay.
But here's what I wonder,kettle, maybe we'll leave this
for listeners to ponder too, Ifa company were a democratic
(21:37):
entity, would we choose thissame org chart, right?
This same stratification ofsalaries, or would we make up
something else Right?
If we were choosing, how wouldwe pay ourselves for the work we
do together?
I think that's a reallyintriguing thing to consider,
and I think if we start thinkingabout that together, we might
come up with some prettycreative systems of reward and
(22:00):
incentive that would then makecareer more interesting and
varied.
So right now, there's just oneway to move your career, like up
the supervisory chain, butmaybe there's other ways to
develop your career that couldbe equally rewarding.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I had to ask that question.
I'm an economist, so I kind ofstopped myself.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I would love to hear your thoughts on that, Kettle.
It's a really importantquestion.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I actually don't have an answer, unfortunately, but I
do think that it brings up andI know it's not very popular to
talk about communism in thiscountry, but the ideal that
you're being paid for you'rebeing paid how much you actually
need and that's it, and theyget a terrarium.
(22:46):
Society is better in many ways.
It still is true.
Question is actually how tobring it about and still having
a free people.
So I do think it's a veryfundamental thing I do.
One of the thing we also shouldnot forget is that how much
people are being paid is not howmuch they're worth, and I think
(23:08):
even starting there it can helpus to understand a little bit
of where we're gonna go forward.
But, of course, how do youorganize companies?
In a way, I don't think we can.
Putting two strict structureson.
That can be hard.
There are, of course, been manyattempts of having much more
democratic companies and somework and some don't work.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
It's not straightforward I think it's a
great.
It's a great question, is agreat thing to think about and I
wanted to just throw out afantastic resource for listeners
on this subject.
Not specifically leading andfalling, but Wonderful book by
rose hackman called emotionallabor, just out in the end of
march and incredibly wellresearched, very accessible,
(23:57):
high recommend.
She explores this question indepth the question of value, the
question of what we considerwork, what we consider paid work
, unpaid work or underpaid oroverpaid work.
It's incredible so I highlyrecommend it.
Rose hackman, emotional labor.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Thank you very much for the recommendation.
Thanks a lot for this insight.
It is clear that we opened up alarge number of questions, and
I did a lot of the organizersociety, the role of leadership,
the pay structure, gender rolesand also the value of human
(24:35):
beings, but I don't think wereally have time in this short
podcast that well too much intothis last area.
Suffice it to say theimportance of a christian
fellowship carries the seed of amore productive and egalitarian
society in itself.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Any last remarks I just well said.
I really believe that too,because when we start to see a
followership happening right andrecognize its value, what it
does is it creates a moreinclusive environment right in
any group, because we suddenlysee, oh, everyone's doing
something all the time.
We need to value all that work.
(25:13):
So I would leave listeners witha maybe a tiny little
assignment, which is just to gothrough the rest of your week
and every time you interact witha co worker, colleague or even
Co volunteer if you're in acommunity organization, just
start to notice when you are ina leadership role meaning like
when are you steering thesituation and when are you
(25:35):
actually in a followership rolewhere you are participating in a
situation that somebody else issteering and just notice that's
it.
Just start noticing that flowback and forth.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Thank you for joining us for this episode.
You have provided greatinsights and food for thought.
Thank you, listeners, fortuning in for this episode of
wellness musketeers.
If you found this podcastinteresting, please check out
charna's book lead and followthe dance of inspired teamwork.
She also has her own podcastlead and follow, available
(26:09):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
All of this information andmore, such as few videos and the
description of her coachingservice, can be found on her
website, www.
Shana Fabianocom.
You can check the podcast notesfor the link.
(26:29):
Please share this podcast withyour friends and family and
subscribe for upcoming episodes,as we'll give you tools to
improve your health, workperformance and just live a more
balanced life.
Thank you.
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