The Champions Mind - A Look Inside Mental Performance

In our first episode of the new golf season, we are joined by Dr. Jim Afremow, a renowned sports psychologist.    Drawing on his extensive experience working with professional athletes and teams,  Jim shares an inside look into mental performance and what successful athletes do in preparation for their success.   

We also discuss working with junior players, teaching them the skills for success whether it be in golf, sports in general, or more importantly, in life.   "The younger you are the more of a sponge you are . . . So if a parent is acting calm, confident, playful, having fun in the sport, its more likely we pick up on that."

It is a great episode for parents, golf coaches and aspiring elite players to learn from one of the leading sports psychologists on developing the mental skills for success.  

Of course, in the last segment Jim shares some tips and ideas on what the recreational golfer can do to prepare themselves for the upcoming Spring season -- how to practice more effectively, to prepare for your round of golf, and how to shake off the bad shots and prepare for the next one.

Episode Transcript

Douglas Maida (00:18):
Hello, good afternoon, and welcome to our
podcast show. We're talkinggolf. My name is Douglas Maida,
and I'm your host. Now intoday's show, we have a very
special guest joining us. Hisname is Dr. Jim Afremow. Jim is
a leading sports psychologisthaving worked in multiple sports
fields, ranging from the NHLhockey, Major League Baseball,

(00:40):
and, of course, golf, amongstothers. He's also worked in the
sport pardon me in the BusinessManagement Leadership arena as
well. Now, Jim has been a veryprolific author in recent times.
Some of the books he's writteninclude the Champions Mind, the
Champions Comeback, and theYoung Champions Mind. His most

(01:01):
recent book is called theLeaders Mind. And as you can
appreciate the old deal withmental performance and human
performance issues. Now, Jim iscurrently in Portland, Oregon,
he was formerly in Phoenix,Arizona, and he'll be joining us
via zoom to our show. Now beforewe get going into our show, we
just like to take a very briefmessage from our sponsors. And

(01:24):
then we'll get right into theshow.
Hi, welcome back to our show.
Thank you for staying with us.

(02:08):
Let's get right to our guest,Dr. Jim Afremow. Jim is a sports
psychologist who's beenperforming in or working in

(03:17):
various sports industriesincluding baseball, hockey,
basketball, golf, and variousothers. Now Jim is joining us
via zoom from his home inPortland, Oregon. He's relocated
to Portland, from his formerlocation in Phoenix, Arizona.
Jim had attended university orgrew up in the Portland area

(03:38):
attended University of Oregon,where he had his bachelor's
degree in psychology. He thenattended Michigan State
University where he completedboth a master's degree in
counseling psychology, and thencompleted his PhD in sports
psychology. Thank you forjoining us, Jim. And a big
welcome to our show.

Jim Afremow (03:57):
Thanks so much, Douglas. Great to be with you
today.

Douglas Maida (04:00):
Ya know, it's great to have you here. Why
don't you tell us a little bitabout your background and what
goes into sports psychology andmental performance?

Jim Afremow (04:10):
Absolutely. So I grew up in a very sports
oriented family, a very activefamily. I grew up in Portland,
Oregon, we go hiking andmountain climbing and you know,
I'd play all the differentsports, ran track and field
played a little bit of golf. Iwish I had played more when I
was younger, but I'd be a littlebit better than I am today. But
I played a lot of differentsports. And I was always

(04:33):
fascinated by you know, themental side of the game, even
though no one really talkedabout it back then when I was
growing up. And so I'd askedquestions like, hey, if I get
nervous before a track meet,what can I do? And I never got
satisfactory answers. It wasalways just relax or don't worry
about it. And you know, if I wasin a slump, how do I get out of
this slump? And it was just welljust keep working hard. And so

(04:56):
what that led me on my ownpersonal kind of exploration and
journey into studying the mentalgame and, and I went to
University of Oregon studiedpsychology fell in love with the
field, you know, what makespeople tick? How can we perform
our best? How can we overcome,you know, challenges in life.
And then I went on to studysports psychology as kind of my
main emphasis at Michigan State,a great program in sports

(05:20):
psychology. But along the waythere as I started working with
teams, one of the first teamsthat I work with was the women's
golf team. So that was a lot offun. Nick Saban was the football
coach Tom Izzo and basketball.
So I got a lot of greatexperiences there. But as I
started working with athletes,they started mentioning, well,
my parents are going through adivorce, or I just broke up with
my boyfriend or girlfriend, or Ihave a history of depression or

(05:41):
anxiety, or, you know, I mighthave some substance abuse
issues. So I started realizingin order to work with the 360
degree person, I need to get amaster's degree in counseling as
well. So I did a double degreein sports psychology and
counseling. And I've loved everyminute of it.

Douglas Maida (05:58):
Well, that's quite the course, courseload you
had there?

Jim Afremow (06:01):
That's right. Yeah, a lot of great classes. And it
was fun just learning about, youknow, most, most of us tend to
think of psychology is more whenthings are going wrong. But it
was really fun just focusing ona lot of psychology where, hey,
everything's going well, how canwe even get better?

Douglas Maida (06:18):
Right? Now, I understand you used to be in the
Phoenix area, and you've nowrelocated back up into the
Pacific Northwest.

Jim Afremow (06:26):
That's right. Spent a lot of time in Phoenix,
working at Arizona StateUniversity. My wife and I moved
out there, I met her at MichiganState. And she did her
internship. She's in psychologytoo, but more research, kind of
clinical counseling. So sheworked at ASU. And then I

(06:47):
started working at ASU. And it'skind of a funny story where I
reached out to the sportsmedicine department when we
moved to Arizona. And the sportmed Doc said, Hey, we don't have
anyone right now. But we couldprobably use someone so stay in
touch. About two weeks later, hecalled and said, Hey, we have a
catcher on the baseball teamwith the yips and do you think

(07:09):
you can help them? And I said,Well, let's let's give it a go.
And so I ended up meeting withthe catcher. Baseball team was
one of the best in the country.
And, and he was just feeling alot of pressure and expectations
and really struggling. And so hehad trouble throwing the ball
back to the pitcher. And youknow, we can all sometimes
relate to that in golf, orsometimes, you know, like, the
easier shots or almost theharder shots for us. And anyway,

(07:30):
we ended up working really welltogether. He got over the hips
and started playing the way heknew how to play. And then they
offered me a job. So I was ableto work with all the teams there
at ASU and including the men'sand women's golf teams. And so
that was just a blast.

Douglas Maida (07:49):
Wow. Wow, fantastic. So, Jim, you worked
in Arizona State University fora period of time working as a
sports psychologist. You've alsoworked with some professional
teams and whatnot. I see one ofthe more recent ones was the San
Francisco Giants organization.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about that experience?

Jim Afremow (08:08):
Yeah, what an amazing experience. What a great
organization. So I was the peakperformance coordinator for the
whole organization. And thenalso, you know, mental skills
coach. And basically what thatmeant was that I was available
to all the minor league playersand the Major League players.
And I would also travel throughthe system. So go to San

(08:28):
Francisco, or go throughout theminor league system. And I think
there were about 500 totalbaseball player. So that's a
lot. I think, when I was at ASU,there's about five or 600 total
student athletes. So that was alot with the Giants. And that
was a lot of fun. Incrediblecoaches, incredible players.

(08:52):
They won three World Series, youknow, with a lot of just
amazing, amazing games andperformances, you know, just a
few years ago, and not only thattalking to these great players,
but the legends would comearound during spring training.
So I got to meet Willie Mays andall these, you know, legends of
the game and talk about themental game with them.

Douglas Maida (09:14):
So you also got players like Willie McCovey, and

Jim Afremow (09:16):
That's right with all those as well. That's right,
with Gaylord Perry Will, WillieMcCovey, you know Jack Clark,
all these guys and, and WillClark and and and they were so
generous, so So you know,humble, and they all love
talking about the mental game.
So, Willie Mays, I said, youknow, Mr. Mays, did you? You
know, did you use a lot ofvisualization when you played

(09:38):
and he said, he said, Yeah, wedidn't call it that. But I like
to visualize myself playing thewhole game before I played it.
And then he winked at me. And hesaid, from every position on the
field, and so yeah, he saidthat, you know, he'd kind of be
in the hot bath or whatever and,and just visualize himself
playing and he said it reallykind of, you know, helped him to
feel like he had been there, youknow, when the game started,

Douglas Maida (10:01):
Jim, what is the difference between? I mean, you,
you talked about thevisualization. And Willie Mays
saying that they didn't call itvisualization in the day. But is
there a difference betweenmental performance and
visualization? I mean, or isthere overlap? Or is one part of
the other? Or how does that cometogether and work?

Jim Afremow (10:19):
Yeah, you know, there's different terms for, for
some of these things that wetalk about, you know, I look at
mental performance, or themental game or even, you know,
mental rehearsal as being alittle bit more of a umbrella
category. Whereas visualizationwould be a specific skill within
that category. So for example,you know, Jack, Nicklaus said, I

(10:39):
never missed a putt in my mind.
Tiger Woods said, you know, Isee the ball going, where I want
it to go before every shot. Sothey're really specific about,
you know, feeling the shot,seeing the shot, and then
executing the shot. Or it mightbe off the course, thinking
about how they want to play eachhole that next day, or that or
later that day, one PGA Tourwinner that I worked with, he

(11:02):
said that, what he liked to dois, you know, be staying at, you
know, stay at a hotel.
And in the morning, he get upearly, before his round, take a
hot bath, and just close hiseyes, turn off all lights, close
his eyes and visualize himselfbirdieing every hole. So you
know, so there's different waysto do it and visualization

(11:23):
skills. So the more you use it,the better at it you get, the
more it helps your game. But youknow, kind of more in the mental
game, I look at it as justthose, those those small, little
kind of challenges that we havewith ourselves. So, you know,
can I be comfortable over theball? Can I, you know, let go of
distractions quicker, can Ibelieve in myself to an
unbelievable level, when I'mplaying? Can I keep my cool when

(11:45):
things around me aren't going asexpected. And so, you know,
simulation training on the rangeis kind of similar to
visualization. And you couldcall that mental rehearsal. So
playing holes or shots, youknow, in your imagination, when
you're on the range, as if youare on the course can be, you
know, something that get, we canhelp us get a lot more out of

(12:06):
our practice.

Douglas Maida (12:07):
When you're a high performance athlete like
that? How does one start tobegin the process of preparing
mentally? I mean, is there acertain step that you would
take? Or is it just be an areathat you're familiar with? Like
say it's the visualizationconcept? You start with that? Or
how does that come together forfor an athlete, Jim?

Jim Afremow (12:27):
Yeah, I think it's usually, you know, what we tend
to gravitate towards. So whatmight feel more comfortable or
more fun at first. So someplayers might gravitate more
toward mindfulness andmeditation and, and breathing
techniques, others mightgravitate more toward
visualization and picturingthemselves being the player they

(12:47):
want to want to be and playingthe way that they want to play.
But I think we're doing allthese, it's just how disciplined
are we with them and making thempart of our actual, you know,
program of excellent. So, youknow, so dedicating time to work
on these mental skills andstrategies, I think, is really
important.

(13:08):
The other thing too, that'sreally interesting about the
mental game is we can do a lotof these skills and strategies
work on them in parallel withworking on our physical game. So
for example, you know, whenwe're on the course, we could
work on maintaining good bodylanguage when we're, you know,
when we're at practice, and westart getting distracted about
okay, what do I have to do latertoday? Or what am I going to

(13:30):
have for dinner later, you know,mindfulness, come back to the
moment be where your golf clubsare, take a deep breath, be back
in the moment. But in general,though, I think that all the
mental skills and strategies arethings that we probably do
somewhat spontaneously, it'sjust being a little bit more
deliberate with them, and havinga solid improvement plan around

(13:52):
them.

Douglas Maida (13:53):
So when you're talking about mental
performance, we've been talkinga lot about the preparation of
it. all. What about the aspectof say something happens that
you're not expecting? And, youknow, you have that bit of
adversity that pops up? And I'mthinking now within a golf
context, because I think, Imean, you told me what you think

(14:14):
I think Golf was a little bit ofa unique sport in that it's so
individualized. And it's notlike you're playing against a
competitor directly, it's youplaying the course and you
playing your best performance.
So let's say for example, you'reyou're playing and you put a bad
swing on a shot, and you say,miss the Green on a par three,
and you put yourself into sometrouble or you put it in the

(14:34):
pond. How does one start to comeback to how would you say
re-right the ship if you will,after an event like that?

Jim Afremow (14:45):
I love that because, you know, righting the
ship is is something that we'regoing to have to do every round
because, you know, no one's everstepped on the golf course, and
played, you know, a perfectround of golf. And so You know,
at some level, we're alwaystrying to write the ship.
Sometimes some rounds, you know,more than others. But I think

(15:08):
one is, you know, it sounds alittle paradoxical. But you
know, you know, kind of expectthe best, but be prepared for
everything before you even goout there. And so when
challenges or adversity or poorshots pop up, you know, one of
the little phrases I like to useis that it's only a poor shot if
you react poorly to that shot.
And so we're going to hit shotsthat are offline.

(15:33):
Ask the best players in theworld, how many shots did you
hit exactly the way you wantedto, during around a golf and
it's not that many. And so for,for the rest of us, it's going
to be most of the shots are notgoing to come off exactly the
way we want them to come off.
But if we can react positively,instead of negatively to those
shots, number one, is we'regoing to maintain our composure,

(15:57):
we're going to maintain oursense of calm, and we'll be much
more prepared mentally, to hitthe next shot. And, you know,
there's no better feeling than,you know, feeling like you know,
we're almost dead and buried ona hole and then finding a way to
still make par or at leastsalvage the hole, and then get
them that momentum back again.

(16:21):
So I would look at, you know,when when things pop up on the
golf course that, you know, whenadversity strikes a man, this is
great, this what I wasexpecting, let's show it I made
up lets you know, it's almostthink of it as a character
defining moment. To show whatyou're made of, rather than, Oh,
there goes my chance of breaking80.

Douglas Maida (16:40):
Yes, so focus on the opportunity, as opposed to
the downside or the negative of

Jim Afremow (16:46):
Yep. And And remember, the goal is, you know,
I think at the end of the round,like when you take off your golf
shoes, and you know, maybe getback in your car or whatever the
situation, you have it, youknow, you're hanging out with
your buddies after the round ora tournament play when you you
know, sign your scorecard, youwant to be able to look yourself
in the eyes, you know, lookyourself in the mirror and be

(17:08):
able to say I posted the bestpossible score I could post
today. And and if you could saythat, then to me, you won the
mental game, whether you won orlost, you know, in terms of the
tournament, or in terms of whatscore you wanted, but it's
really getting the most out ofwhatever you do have that day.
We could all live with a toughday on the golf course. But what

(17:28):
really stings is when we knowthat you know what I got in my
own way, I got too distracted. Ihad too many doubts. You know, I
got too frustrated out there. Sothat's what we're trying to work
against.

Douglas Maida (17:39):
Right. A couple of moments ago, you mentioned
about dealing with the adversityand getting ready for the next
shot. And it just reminded me ofsomething that Ben Hogan was
famous for saying thatapparently the the most
important shot is going to bethe next one.

Jim Afremow (17:51):
Yeah, I love that.
And and, you know, we're talkingabout San Francisco Giants
earlier, you know, we talkedabout baseball, like, you know,
have almost like a, you know, bea one pitch champion, you know,
like, it's just this pitch. Andthe only thing I care about,
let's say you're a pitcher inbaseball, the only thing I
really care about is this nextpitch, you know, what's my
strategy for this next pitch?

(18:13):
And how well can I execute it?
So that's perfect for golf. It'sthe only thing I care about, is
this shot at hand, and how wellI can execute it. Nothing else
matters the past the future.
Who's watching? You know,anything else is just noise?

Douglas Maida (18:30):
Yeah, yeah. At the a&e earlier this year, well,
last year, the eventualchampion, Patty Tavatanikit, it
was talking a little bit aboutstruggling in one section of the
tournament with staying presentand not getting ahead of herself
and, and dealing with a littlebit of adversity and whatnot,

(18:51):
and was talking about the factthat she was able to, to
overcome that. And, you know, itwas a sign of self satisfaction
or a little bit of pride thatshe was able to meet that
challenge and overcome it. Isthat something that, you know, I
guess part of it is is whenyou're training is the ideas to

(19:11):
develop that type of behaviorover and over again, so that you
get familiar with that feelingand realizing that you can
compartmentalize that a bit ofadversity and that it's not as
bad as it seems.

Jim Afremow (19:20):
Well, that you just made a really important point
there that the things that wefare most on the golf course are
usually not as bad as we thinkthey're going to be. So we hit a
bad shot, we, you know, we gothrough a rough stretch of
holes. Well, guess what? Youmight be ready for a good

(19:43):
stretch of holes, or that badshot might lead to if you handle
it right might lead to a reallycool recovery shot. And so I
think the thing that we need todo is practice radical
acceptance out there. And itsounds kind of counterintuitive
because As we, you know, we'reso ambitious when we're on the
course we want to score as lowas we possibly can, that to

(20:05):
accept not so great shot justfeels like we're accepting
mediocrity. But really whatyou're doing is you're
accepting, you know, you're notfalling in love with what you
just did. But what you're doingis you're accepting that it
happened. And that the sooneryou can let go of that, the more
you can be back in the presentand enjoy this shot this moment.

(20:25):
So I think that's reallyimportant. That thing about
being present is is such animportant life skill as well,
most of us are living in thefuture, and afraid of it, or
we're stuck in the past andangry and upset about it. And so
I love the sport psychologysaying that there's no pressure
in the present moment. So themore present we can be, the more

(20:47):
pleasure we're going toexperience and the better we're
going to perform.

Douglas Maida (20:50):
So what you're saying, the piece I'm picking up
on, one of the aspects is thatletting go is obviously an
important aspect, particularlyin a sport like golf, where your
little errors are going to bevery mindful and present,
because it is such anindividualized sport.

Jim Afremow (21:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And though, and the way to lookat that is practice, you're
letting go muscle. So each timeyou could say, let it go, let it
go, you know, next shot, bestshot, whatever little phrase
that you have, you're practicingdeveloping, you're letting go
muscle, and the best athletes inthe world are masters of letting
go.

Douglas Maida (21:27):
Okay, so what you're saying is basically that,
affirming what you're sayingabout the best athletes, then
it's the ability to let go of,of the adversity and, and just
get yourself back, righted, inback into the moment then. And
letting go is a key part ofthat.

Jim Afremow (21:41):
It's a huge part because, again, you know, Dr.
Bob Rotella, my colleague says,you know, golf is not a game of
perfect things are gonna happenout there. And so it's not about
being perfect. It's about howquickly can you recover from
those mistakes, or thatadversity? That's a real big
sign of mental toughness rightthere.

Douglas Maida (22:02):
Right. So somebody like a Sevi Ballasteros
would have had a strong sense ofmental performance and mental
strength to be able to deal witha lot of the shots that he put
himself into.

Jim Afremow (22:15):
That's right, and you almost look at it as
advantage. It's almost like,Man, I hit it, you know, I
almost hit that ball off theproperty. I'm the only one that
could get up and down fromthere. So let's go have fun with
that shot. You know, I thinkthat's the that's a great
attitude.

Douglas Maida (22:31):
And I suppose the flip side to it is it can be
incredibly demoralizing. Whoeveryou're playing with?

Jim Afremow (22:35):
That's exactly right. Yeah, you definitely,
there's some gamesmanship there,where it's like, Man, this guy
could get up and down fromanywhere. So,

Douglas Maida (22:43):
Jim, what does a high performance athlete -- What
does a high performance athletedo that's going to be different
than from the recreationalgolfer?

Jim Afremow (22:51):
Well, you know, one way to look at that would be for
a high performance athlete, youknow, that the competition is so
stiff, you know, for example,when as with the Giants, there
were players from all over theworld. So, you know, Venezuela,
from Dominican Republic, from,you know, South Korea, from

(23:12):
Canada, from the US from Mexico.
And so, you know, for an eliteathlete, elite golfer, you need
to your whole life almost has torevolve around your game.
Whereas, you know, for usrecreational players, for those
that are listening, golfrevolves around our whole life.
And so, you know, like, so, youknow, we don't get to play or

(23:35):
practice as much. But the neatthing is, although we might not
be able to play our practice asmuch as a pro, what we can do is
learn how to think like them.
And, and, you know, I might notbe able to hit the ball as far
as Bryson Dechambeau, butthere's nothing preventing me or

(23:56):
you or anyone from thinking likea champion. And so that's what I
love about the mental game is wecould all no one is born with
like a Champions mind gene, wecould all develop it. And it not
only will help us play bettergolf, have more fun at golf, but
it'll help us in all areas oflife.

Douglas Maida (24:12):
So mental performance skills that we're
talking about, they're prettymuch going to be the same
processes, regardless of whatsport you're playing. Is that
correct?

Jim Afremow (24:21):
Yeah, high performance is high performance.
So it's really interesting. I'vebeen fortunate enough to work
with just you know, pretty muchevery sport every you know,
every type of sport out thereand of course, there's you know,
some difference differencesbetween individual sports or
team sports or you know, combatsports, versus you know, more
stick and ball sports. But thereally neat thing is that we end

(24:44):
up talking about confidence. Weend up talking about
concentration, we talk aboutcomposure, we talk about
commitment, competitiveness, youknow, clarity, what do you want,
what are your goals, how bad doyou want those? What price are
you willing to pay?
And then a lot of the mentalskills are the same in terms of
have gratitude visualization,positive self talk, breathing

(25:04):
techniques, you know, having preperformance routines or pre shot
routines to help us get in thegreatest state of mind and mood
that we can be in when we whenwe're performing. So that's a
lot of fun and working withathletes from different sports.
They like hearing examples from,you know, hey, what are what are
the baseball guys you work with?
Say? Or what are the softballplayers that you work with? Say?

(25:25):
Or, you know, what are thegolfers say they love hearing
stories from other eliteathletes, because again, high
performance is really highperformance,

Douglas Maida (25:35):
And high performance from the sports
field would tend to dovetailquite nicely into the business
world, would it not?
Organizational Leadership world?

Jim Afremow (25:44):
Absolutely. I love working with corporate athletes,
because when you think about it,sometimes, you know, I'll say,
Hey, you have a harder job thanthese pro athletes, and, you
know, in college studentathletes that I work with, and
they're like, Well, what are youtalking about? I'll say, well,
they, you know, they might onlybe on the golf course at worst,
you know, four or five hours,you know, where you're at work
10 hours, you know, like, you'reyou're on, you're at your desk

(26:07):
for 10 straight hours, or theymight have more time off, or,
you know, they might have thiswhole support system around
them, where you're kind of offon your own trying to do the
best you can in the company. Andso I love working with corporate
athletes and they love, youknow, again, kind of thinking of
themselves as, hey, you know,I'm an athlete in my own right,

(26:27):
how can I have a, you know, kindof a gold medal mindset as well.

Douglas Maida (26:33):
Let's use that as a bit of a segue, Jim, when we
come back. And when we come backfrom our short break, where
we'll talk a little bit aboutthe fact that we're coming into
springtime, or at least here inthe North, the northern
hemisphere and with that themeaning of a or promise of a new
golf season. So let's pick thatup. When we come right back.
We're gonna take a short break,and we'll see you shortly.

(26:55):
Alright, we're back. Thank youfor staying with us. Now let's

(27:26):
get right back into things. As Imentioned, it's springtime, and

(28:04):
the promise of a new golf seasonis upon us, at least here in the
northern hemisphere. So, Jim,let's talk a little bit now

(28:24):
about junior players. Becausethere's been a lot of focus in
recent years about juniorplayers developing and becoming
better golfers and athletes ingeneral and in other sports. So
let's chat a little bit about,you mentioned in your one book,
the young champions mind set, Ibelieve it is about what the

(28:47):
winning mindset is, and maybeyou can explain what you see the
winning mindset consisting of.

Jim Afremow (28:51):
Yeah, well, I would say that we're all on our own
personal journey of excellence.
And to me, we all all of us havetwo choices. One choice is to
settle for silver. And that'sjust kind of go through the
motions, you know, kind of holdback, play it too safe. You
know, and kind of almost attimes be our own worst enemy
with negative self talk and youknow, behaviors that aren't

(29:12):
really working for us versusthinking gold. And so to me, you
know, winning mindset is someonewho thinks gold -- that I want
to find out how good I can get,you know, at my sport, I want to
you know, I want to be vitallyinvolved in my life, doing the
things that I value most andmaking a positive difference
around me. So you know, that'sthinking feeling and acting in

(29:35):
ways that help you to be thevery best you can be. And so
that's what I would use as ametaphor for being a champion.
We all might not be the championon any given day, but we can all
be a champion if we can youknow, when our head hits the
pillow at night I you know, Ilike it. I like it's often

(29:58):
referred to as the pillow test.
Can you pass the pillow test,which means when your head hits
the pillow at night, you know,can you smile and say, you know,
I got the best out of myselftoday, you know, I had a gold
medal day to day. And if you cando that, more often than not,
you're going to live a goldmedal life. So what I love for
in working with junior athletesis, you know, when I work with

(30:19):
college athletes, a lot of themwill say, after two or three
sessions of talking about thesethings, and working on these,
you know, mental skills andstrategies -- Man, I wish I
started this a lot younger thanit would be more automatic. Now
I want to hit that wall, myfirst year of college, this
would be just more about kind ofhow I think and how I feel and
behave. And so in a lot of ways,the younger the better in terms

(30:41):
of working on the mental game.

Douglas Maida (30:43):
Well, that leads us into the question -- how
young is too young to start whenit comes to things like mental
performance and developing amental attitude and preparation?

Jim Afremow (30:52):
Well, I think that, you know, the younger you are,
the more of a sponge you are. Soone of the sources of confidence
for all of us is modeling seenother people, you know, do what
they're doing. And then we kindof mimic or mirror what they're
doing. So if a parent is acting,you know, calm, confident,
playful, having fun in in thesport, or, you know, when they

(31:16):
talk about sports, it's morelikely we're gonna pick up on
that, but I had a great story.
My wife and I, we have a 10 yearold daughter, and when she was
about two and having a tempertantrum, which we all tend to
have at that age. And, you know,unfortunately, some of us have
that on the course still, but,but she was having a temper
tantrum, and, you know, I waskind of just watching her and,

(31:39):
you know, just trying to, youknow, stay calm and, and, and be
there to support her. But mywife walks by and says, Hey, why
don't you teach her one of thosebreathing techniques, you teach
your athletes, and it never evencrossed my mind, you know, it's
like, Whoa, I would have neverthought that that would you
know, she was too young, in mymind.
So anyway, what I did is I justlay down on the floor next door,
started belly breathing, youknow, put my hand on my belly

(32:02):
and just, you know, in and outnice and slow. And my daughter
looked over at me and starteddoing the same thing. And then
all of a sudden, she startedlaughing and smiling and the
temper tantrum was over. Andthen what I would notice is when
she would get frustrated, whenyou know, she's playing with a
toy, and something wasn'tworking, she would lay down and
do the belly breathing herself.
So I think those, you know, kindof fundamental rudimentary

(32:23):
skills, we can practice as youngas one or two years old, you
know, kind of in a watered downfun, playful way. And that's why
I like, you know, breathing andbody language and those things,
we could practice those at areally young age.

Douglas Maida (32:39):
Right. So it's, it's basically learning to walk
and then by the time you get toan older age, and more mentally
developed, you can be into therunning stage?

Jim Afremow (32:47):
Yes, you can be a little more sophisticated with
it. And, and, you know, practiceit for maybe a little bit
longer. You know, obviously,when some, you know, real young
kid isn't going to sit, do 20minutes of meditation, but but
they can do a minute of, youknow, kind of thinking about
their breath and focusing on,you know, the inhale and the
exhale and seeing how thatfeels. And you know, what was
that like for them?

Douglas Maida (33:09):
In your book, you also mentioned the term personal
responsibility. So, when we chatabout that, I mean, what does it
mean, particularly in thecontext of a junior player, in
terms of what does personalresponsibility mean, and in the
terms of learning how to be morementally prepared, and to
improve their level ofperformance?

Jim Afremow (33:29):
Well, one thing that I think that's important
for all of us to learn and torealize and learn and accept is
that no one is going to take usto that promised land, we have
to do it ourselves. And sowhatever our goals and dreams
are, we want as you know, acircle of excellence around us,
we want as much support as wecan, I'm always, you know,

(33:50):
recommending performers, youknow, any resources that are
available available to you takeadvantage of it. So you know,
whether strength andconditioning coaches, whether,
you know, sports, nutritionist,sports, psychologist, family,
friends, coaches, obviously,take advantage of all these
resources, but think of yourselfas sort of the President of your

(34:11):
of your performance. And, youknow, how good do you want to
be? How badly do you want it?
And what do you need to do eachday to get one step closer to
those dream goals. And so, oneof the things that I like to
talk with all athletes about isthe idea of, you know, tell me
what your dreams and goals are.
But you know, as important ormaybe even more important, who

(34:34):
do you want to be? What are yourvalues and so we kind of create
this hierarchy of values, youknow, is competitiveness a value
to you is excellence, a value toyou, is mindfulness of value to
you. So, start thinking aboutwhat's important discipline,
hard work, those kinds ofthings. That should be something
that should be, you know, kindof first and foremost in your

(34:57):
mind each day of, you know, kindof like, you know, That's those
on your eyelids. And that's yourroadmap for who you want to be
and how you want to go aboutyour business. Because when you
think about goals, they'reoutside of our control. Whereas
values are things that we couldlive daily and breathe life into
them each day. So one exerciseI'd give for anyone listening

(35:17):
today is write down who you wantto be, you know, make a deal of
who you want to be as a personas a performer. And then look at
ways to make sure that you'rebreathing life into each of
those values. That's going toreally, really help you to
almost set the stage for you toreally rocket up there to you

(35:38):
know, your best performances.

Douglas Maida (35:40):
Right. Okay. You mentioned about having a circle
of support or a teamenvironment. I mean, we're
really noticing that a lot moreparticularly in individual
sports, like tennis, and golf.
You talk about Jordan Spieth,for example, a few years back
when he had that incredibleseason, he was thanking his
team, and it was a "WE" type of. . . description of everybody

(36:02):
around him, you know, himselfand his caddy, Michael Geller,
and how important nowadays, Imean, you've touched a fair bit
on that already. But at ayounger age like this, is it
really important that theparents and the junior players,
the children start to thinkabout putting together a team
environment?

Jim Afremow (36:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think we want every edge we can
get. And so I think that, youknow, at first, we might balk at
that idea, and think, Oh, that'sa lot of pressure and stress,
and it's too professional, but Iwould just look at it as you
know, it doesn't have to beuptight, you know, it could be
it could be casual, it could beplayful, it could be fun. You

(36:41):
know, it's just like, you know,a child having, you know, a
tutor, or, you know, for math,it's not like, -- "Oh my God,
why are they doing that? They'renever going to be a
mathematician," -- you know,it's like, well, no. They're
learning how to learn, they'relearning how to do things.
They're getting extra support.
And so as long as it's kind of,you know, not shoved on them.

(37:04):
Sometimes I think, you know, Ilike the same, you know, it's
okay to push your kids justdon't shove them. I think
there's some times you know,where it's like, you know,
let's, let's provide the bestresources we can. Now having
said that, though, kids, really,you know, have an idea that what
a mom and dad really want here.
And if it's really to, you know,bring out the best that could
possibly be, that's one thing,if it's, well, the reason we're

(37:25):
doing this is because you betterget a scholarship, or you better
make the tour or, you know,they're better be straight, you
know, they're strings attachedto it, then that's when I think
it could all you know, kind ofblow up on everyone. And that
would be something that would besuper contra-indicated. But if
it's more about, Hey, these aresome extra resources, if you're
really serious about, you know,seeing how good you can be at

(37:48):
this, you know, let's make surethat you have some, you know,
special people special skillsthat can help you with those
goals.

Douglas Maida (37:55):
Right. And there's a lesson in there, too,
that you've just mentioned aboutthe parents, it's okay to push,
don't shove and coming back tothe fact that expectations need
to be realistic. And thoseexpectations should be more
around your child learning howto play their best or perform at
their best rather than having anend goal down the road that they
have to be tour winners or thenext Tiger Woods or the next so

(38:16):
and so.

Jim Afremow (38:17):
Yep, absolutely. In my you know, counseling and
sports psychology work, I'llask, you know, younger athletes
sometimes or even collegestudent athletes, you know, hey,
what does mom and dad thinkabout, you know, your gymnastics
or your golf game? Or, and, andthe immediate response is
always, oh, they just want me tohave fun. And then I'll say,
Well, how do they really feel?
And they'll say, Well, they're,you know, they're expecting me

(38:39):
to get a scholarship or, youknow, they think I should really
win this or win that event. And,and, and, you know, again, it's,
it's not beating up on parentshere. Because, you know, again,
I'm a parent as well, you wantthe best for your kid, and you
want to do everything you canfor your kid, it's just
sometimes helping isn't alwayshelpful. And so sometimes
parents, if they're helping inthe wrong way, could actually do

(39:00):
more harm than good. And so youwant to be, you know, I like the
analogy of kind of a rowboat,you know, you want to be in the
boat with your kid. And you wantto be rowing in the dir ... in
the same direction at the samespeed. But you got to make sure
that the direction you're goingis where the kid wants to go,
not where you want them to go.

Douglas Maida (39:20):
Yeah, okay. What do you say about the thoughts
about say, for example, theparent who wants to coach their
child, I mean, at the youngyoung levels, that tend to be
more of a more common thing aschildren are starting to explore
themselves, and explore theirathleticism and develop some
athletic skills and whatnot. Butis there a point that you think

(39:40):
that comes where the parent andthe child need to have a
reassessment as to how muchfuurther the child can go with
the parent being a coach likethat, and that the parents have
to come to terms withunderstanding a role change for
themselves?

Jim Afremow (39:54):
Yeah, that could be pretty tricky, right? I mean, on
the one hand, I think sometimeswhat parents will do in That
situation is if they're coachingtheir own child is they'll be
extra tough on their kid,because they don't want anyone
else, you know, especially ifit's a team sport to think that
their kid is getting anadvantage. So it'll be too tough
on the kid, which isn't helpful.
Or maybe they will provide a lotof extra, you know, advantages

(40:16):
for their son or daughter, whichagain, might separate that
player from their teammates and,and lead them down the wrong
path in terms of expectations interms of how they should be
treated. I think it takes a lotof, you know, self
understanding, and, and, andbeing very thoughtful about how
to approach those kinds ofsituations where it's like,

(40:38):
okay, when I'm here, I'm dad,when I'm here, I'm coach, but I
love you no matter what, and,you know, we're going to have to
keep this dialogue going, youknow, in terms of feedback, you
know, in terms of, you know,how's this for you? And is this
something that you want? I thinkif it's handled really well,
then it can be a beautiful thing

Douglas Maida (40:56):
You mentioned about getting into an area of
consistent performance andwhatnot. I mean, we've heard a
lot of the term "being in thezone", particularly with
professional athletes, you know,who are on a streak of some
sort, whether it be consecutivegames hitting streak, or, you

(41:18):
know, hockey with a goal scoringstreak, or golf with wins, or,
you know, how many birdies havethey been able to get on -- Get
on the birdie train, how manywere they able to record or
things of that nature? So canyou explain for us a little bit
about the term "the zone"?
Because I think it's kind ofimplied, but not really
discussed much as to what doesit mean to be in the zone? And

(41:40):
and I think it's kind ofsomething that is measured by
results, as opposed to? Whatmakes it up? Does that make
sense?

Jim Afremow (41:49):
Yeah, a lot of times, you know, we might
really, you know, play well, orwin a game, and we're not in the
zone, we just were better thatday. But we're fighting
ourselves on the inside. Whereasother times, everything clicks.
And and the zone to me is when,you know, our flow state is that

(42:10):
optimal level of humanfunctioning, where it's almost
like there's, this "is this"you're not separate from the
performance, you are theperformance. And instead of
like, you're trying to give aperformance, it almost feels
like the performance is givingyou you're almost just observing
it as it's happening. And it's awonderful experience, you know,

(42:32):
time seems to slow down or speedup, depending on you know, what
is indicated, you're having alot of fun while you're doing
it, it's not silly, or goofingoff fun, it's, you know, more
intense and, and fun with apurpose. And you're, you know,
you're really 100% focused onwhat's happening right here
right now.
So the zone is one of thosethings that the athletes that

(42:54):
I've worked with, they will say,you know, the better ones that
I've worked with, will say, youknow, five 10% of the time
they're in the zone, the other80, 90, 95% of the time, what
we're really doing is justtrying to hang in there, you
know, and adjust and, and, andcompensate and, and, you know,
find a way to get the job done.
And so it's kind of like, okay,I got my B or C game, you know,

(43:16):
let's try to get 100% out of myB or C game and see if that's
good enough today. But yeah, thezone is a lot of fun. I think
we've all had that, where it'salmost like, you know, the club
feels like an extension of us.
And, and, you know, the targetsjust seems like right there.
And, and, and the swing almosthappens on its own and, and what

(43:38):
a great experience. But we can'tnecessarily force it, you know,
the more actively you try to getin there, the more you kind of
pop yourself out of it. So whenyou're in there, just ride it
out for as long as you can. Andwhen you're not in there yet,
you know, that's where routinesand a lot of the mental game
skills and strategies aredesigned to help bring us a
little bit closer to being inthe zone, or at least create the

(43:59):
stage for us to get in theremore often.

Douglas Maida (44:01):
And is that because we get into things like
our pre shot routine andthinking about exactly what we
have to do at this particularpoint in time and not getting
ahead of ourselves? Or, as we'vetalked about already about being
stuck in the past about a badresult?

Jim Afremow (44:13):
Absolutely. So the for the zone, you know, that's
experienced as, okay, you know,I'm just thinking about my
breathing, I'm looking at mytarget, I stepped over the ball,
I allow the swing to happen. AndI enjoy watching my ball fly
right at my target. Whereas, youknow, you know, kind of the

(44:35):
opposite mindset is, man, youknow, if I miss this shot, it's
going to be embarrassing, youknow, like, or I'm going to ruin
my score. This was an easybirdie hole. And now I'm going
to double bogey it and, youknow, we're thinking, Wait,
we're overthinking. We're overtrying. You know, we're just not
in the moment. We're notenjoying the moment. We're

(44:56):
either way in the future way inthe past, or we're thinking
about They kind of impressionmanagement, how am I looking?
You know, what do people thinkI'm a good player? Do they think
I'm a bad player? You know. Sothat's what I love about the
zone or trying to get, you know,set the stage more for the zone
is it's just simple. It's just asimple, playful mindset. versus,

(45:17):
you know, the average state ofmind that we're in where it's
just, there's too much garbagein there. And so garbage in
garbage out kind of deal.

Douglas Maida (45:26):
Yeah. Let me ask you about that. You mentioned
about how do I look and thingsof that nature. I mean, there is
a sort of stream of thought outthere that if I look good, I'll
play good, or I'm more likely toplay good. If I look good. I
mean, is that a real concept, Imean, in terms of the confidence
that you start to developyourself, or the self belief?

Jim Afremow (45:45):
Yeah, I think I like to say that if you look
good, you'll feel good. And ifyou feel good, you'll play good.
And then and then you'll getpaid good. But I look at that,
you know, if I look good, it'smore about how you feel about
how you look versus thinkingabout how others are, you know,
looking at you, and what they'rethinking. So to me, it's just

(46:07):
looking good just means that youyou're comfortable in your own
skin, you're, you know, you justlike your posture, you like the
way you're dressed, you're justkind of enjoying who you are.
And then feeling really goodabout yourself and your game and
the preparation that you put inand, and then just enjoying, you
know, playing the game one goodshot in a row until you run out
of shots.

(46:28):
But that's a lot different thanimpression management, which is,
you know, not trying not toembarrass yourself or trying to
impress others that arewatching. And if you're doing
that, then you're really playingtwo different games, you're
playing golf, and then you'replaying golf, golf reputation or
something, there's just atotally different game. So you
got to pick one or the other.
And so, but if you it's, it's,you know, again, it's it's it's

(46:51):
paradoxical, but the less youthink about other people
watching it, the more they'regoing to probably be impressed
because you're going to probablyplay better,

Douglas Maida (46:59):
Right. Yeah, I could see that. A couple of
minutes ago, we were chatting alittle bit about self awareness
as being an important aspect ofit. How important is it to an
athlete, even if it's a juniorplayer, and particularly if it's
a junior player, like, because Imean, the amount of self
awareness that a junior playertends to bring to things is
going to be wide discrepanciesbetween individuals, even of the

(47:22):
same age, I guess, how importantis it for a child or a junior
player to have a certain levelof self awareness in terms of
being able to perform mentallyand prepare mentally?

Jim Afremow (47:31):
Yeah, so self awareness is the key to change.
And for all of us, and one ofthe things that we could do as
friends or you know, family, orcoaches is ask better questions
of our, you know, juniorathletes, instead of Hey, What
score did you shoot? Or did youwin? Is what did you learn? Or,

(47:53):
you know, what, what was thechallenge that you overcame out
there? Or what would you dodifferent on that last hole? And
so, or, you know, when you'replaying your best, what are you
thinking and feeling and doingversus maybe when you haven't
played your best? And so asking,answering those types of
questions really gets usthinking, and then even
journaling the power of the penwriting those down. Okay, you

(48:16):
know, here's what I did well,today, and it could even be just
a few minutes per Junior golfer,what are two or three things I
did well, today that I want tokeep doing? What are two or
three things that, you know, Ican do better that I'll do
different next time that willhelp me to be a better golfer.
And then I always like to kindof the question of always
thinking that in every round ofgolf, you play for any of us,

(48:37):
there's always some lesson inthere, some some little kind of
like, you know, gold in the mudthat we want to make sure that
we find and so always thinkingwhat was the lesson today, and
it might have, you know,sometimes the lesson might be,
be more patient out there, stoptrying to force things, you
know, trust your talent. Othertimes, it might be, you know, be
kind to yourself, you know,after after a rough patch of

(49:01):
holes or or, you know, poorshot, you know, being a better
coach to yourself in thosemoments. So, think about every
round of golf, you play asthere's a lesson in there. And
the more you can find thoselessons, write down those
lessons, and you're going to bea better player. Otherwise,
you're just an older player. Thenext time you play, you're not

(49:21):
wiser, you're just older.

Douglas Maida (49:23):
Speaking of older players, Let's chat a little bit
about the recreational player,like we mentioned at the top of
this segment where we're goinginto Springtime and what can we
do as recreational players tostart preparing ourselves
mentally, in terms of having agood season or wanting to have a
good season this year?

Jim Afremow (49:39):
I love that Douglas because there's so many fun
things that we can do. You know,one idea is to create a you
know, sort of a dream golf boardand where you project you know,
what do I want to do this yearin golf, you know, what courses
do I want to play? How do I wantto play? Who are my role models

(49:59):
in the game, you know, maybe myfavorite quotes or mental tips,
put that on a board, you know,create this little collage of
images and pictures and quotesthat get you excited about the
season and conserve as you know,kind of, you know, this kind of
external source of support foryourself that when you see that
it gets you pumped up. And in agood frame of mind, I think

(50:22):
another idea is, you know, startpracticing some of these mental
skills now.
So when you're driving focus onjust driving instead of the
tendency to check out your phoneat every stoplight, you know,
just be more in the moment whenyou're eating, just taste your
food. So practice mindfulness oreven meditation, practice
visualization, spend a fewminutes, you know, every day or

(50:44):
every other day picturingyourself playing some of your
favorite golf holes, or yourhome course. See yourself
birdieing some of those holes. Ithink that really helps you,
when you get back out there andgo, Man, it feels like I haven't
been gone from the game as longas I thought I had been so So
visualize visualizationsimportant. listening to

(51:05):
podcasts, such as yours to kindof keep you fresh in terms of
the mental game, even when wehave to leave the game
physically, because of theweather, we don't have to leave
the game mentally. And so that'spart of what I'm talking about
is find different ways to stayin the game mentally. And then
when you're back out there, it'salmost like getting back on the
horse again, and it'll be a loteasier than you thought, then
you think it would be

Douglas Maida (51:25):
Right. And could preparing yourself mentally for
this, you know, springapproaches, could that even
focus on things like what you'regoing to practice on and focus
on practicing and what whatskills you want to enhance a
little bit better, or things ofthat nature?

Jim Afremow (51:40):
Absolutely. And look for opportunities to you
know, get a little putting in onthe carpet, and you know, and
start thinking about a practiceplan. Most of us tend to just go
out there and just start machinegunning balls will go in and on
the driving range instead ofthinking, Okay, how do I want to
break up my practice time sothat I could get the most out of

(52:01):
that time. And what I would sayis most golfers, well just think
mechanics the whole time they'repracticing. And then you know,
they'll tell themselves, okay,now that I'm going to go play,
let's not think about mechanicsat all, well, what you practice
grows, you know, stronger. Soyou need to also practice time
where I'm just going to look attargets, let the ball fly to
those targets, and resist theurge to get judgmental or

(52:23):
mechanical. So I think it's goodto end every practice with just
more of that trusting reactivemindset. And that will help you
to kind of prepare to think thatway when you do actually play.

Douglas Maida (52:34):
Yeah, yeah, I could see that being very
important. We're coming close tothe end of our segment. Jim,
before we get there, and ourwrap up, I wanted to ask you,
how important is it forrecreational player and perhaps
for any player, you know,recreational players, we tend to
have a lot more variance in ourgame, from good to bad, at from
shot to shot, how important isit for us to say, recognize our

(52:56):
wins and celebrate our, our winsas recreational players?

Jim Afremow (53:00):
I love that Douglas, I think you you really
hit the nail on the head thereis we want to celebrate what we
want to see happen more often.
And most of us have a lot ofenergy and emotion around the
bad shots or the poor shots. Andyou know, I can't believe I did
that we get angry, we getfrustrated. And then you know,
we really, you know, either ruinour moment, or, you know, really
create a edge that memory in ourmind that we that we don't want.

(53:25):
And so let's do the oppositethis year, let's make you know,
let's let's try to love everyshot we hit this year,
especially the good ones andreally say that was like me to
do it. That was you know, that'swhat I do. That's, that's who I
am. And so make it part of youridentity when you hit a good
shot, and put some emotionbehind it. You know, obviously,

(53:48):
you know, you don't want to gotoo high with that, because you
still have some more play to do,but give yourself credit where
credit's due. Whereas when youdon't hit a great shot, you
know, almost Hey, you know, justneeds a small correction or a
little adjustment that wasn'tlike me.
So kind of almost distanceyourself from it take the
emotion and the energy out ofit, I think is really important.

(54:10):
But yeah, most golfers tend tobefore they play, they tend to
almost set themselves up forfailure by saying Oh, my back
hurts I haven't played in awhile they're thinking of all
the bad things that can happen.
And then when they do hit a badshot, I knew that was going to
happen. So but it, but in a selfdefeating way instead of like,
okay, even the best in the worldto have trouble sometimes or a
lot of the times. Let's handlethis like a champion and let's

(54:33):
champion myself out of thissituation where I could still
finish the hole or stillfinished the round. on a high
note.

Douglas Maida (54:41):
You mentioned them saying yeah, my back's not
hurting. Or my back's not doingtoo well so but is that not at
the same time a way of allowingyourself to escape the pressure
and say you know what, I shouldjust go into this and play
because I can go into with noexpectation and and if I hit a
bad shot, I hit a bad shot. So

Jim Afremow (54:57):
what Yeah, I mean, I do think When we say it out
loud, what we're doing is we'retrying to save a little bit of
face. And again, that goes backto the impression, impression
management, we want everyonearound us, you know, we're
almost setting it up. So if Idon't play well, then my friends
or, you know, my, my Foursome,they'll know that I'm a better
golfer than this. And, andagain, that just shows me that

(55:18):
we're worried too much aboutwhat they think instead of what
we're trying to deliver outthere on the course. So, but I
agree with you, too, it's, youknow, it's kind of like when you
when you show up with thecourse, you know, let's focus
less on expectations and more ontargets.

Douglas Maida (55:34):
How about some words of wisdom for any junior
players, or parents out therethat may be contemplating mental
-- introducing their players,their junior players to mental
performance?

Jim Afremow (55:43):
Yeah, I would say for parents and junior players
is, instead of looking at themental game, as an add on to
what you're already doing, lookat it as the core of what you
should be doing. Again, youknow, the mental game is your
game, the body is just what youuse to, you know, to hit the
ball or to make the putt. Andso, the mental game is something

(56:05):
that will help you on thecourse, but also in the
classroom, and all you know, andfor your whole life. And so,
just like we were talking aboutearlier, you know, kind of the
best ways to, you know, I thinkthe best golf tip ever is pick
up the game early on instead oflater on in life. Because you
know, you're going to learnfaster at a younger age. And so
if you could start working onthe mental game, and again, not

(56:26):
in a stressful, you know, overlydramatic kind of way, but just
where you start playing aroundwith visualization, and self
talk, and routines, and allthese good things, you're going
to pick it up faster, you'regoing to get more out of it, and
it's going to serve you well ineverything that you do.

Douglas Maida (56:41):
Right, Jim, so if somebody's interested in
learning more about mentalperformance, and how to start
familiarizing themselves withit, any suggestions on what they
might be able to do? Or can theycontact you, or would be picking
up one of the books be a greatway of starting the self
exploration into mentalperformance?

Jim Afremow (57:01):
Absolutely, I think books, there's, there's a lot of
great resources out there. Sobooks, definitely. And then
also, too, in terms of just thework, there's a lot of good
sports psychologist or mentalcoaches out there and, and so
I'm on online, I'm on Twitter at"@goldmedal mind". And, and I

(57:25):
love working again, with theyounger athletes, because, you
know, really sets them up forthe next you know, 3040 50 years
of their life in anything thatthey do. But and then I love
sharing some stories, notnecessarily the names, but
stories about, you know, the proathletes and the gold knows that
I've been fortunate to workwith, you know, kind of how they
approached the mental game andand how these younger athletes

(57:46):
could start learning it now.

Douglas Maida (57:49):
If anybody wanted to contact you, is that
something they could do?

Jim Afremow (57:52):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So through Twitter,www.goldmedalmind.net is my
website. And then on Instagram,GMF remote.

Douglas Maida (58:00):
Okay. All right.
Well, I appreciate that. Jim,that was a fantastic. I know, we
could probably go on a littlebit longer here. It's a
interesting topic. And it's onethat's grown in, in prominence
over the last several years. Soperhaps in future, we can invite
you back if you'd be willing tojoin us again.

Jim Afremow (58:16):
I would love that, Douglas. Great questions. Great
topic. Thanks for having me on.
And, and I do think that mindsetis the final frontier. So let's
all let's all go boldly towardthat final frontier.

Douglas Maida (58:30):
We're hopefully the goal is to have more people
go in that direction.

Jim Afremow (58:33):
Exactly.

Douglas Maida (58:35):
All right. Well, thank you so much, Jim.
Appreciate it. And great to haveyou on the show.

Jim Afremow (58:41):
Thanks so much.
Okay. Bye. Bye.

Douglas Maida (58:43):
All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, that
concludes our show for today.
Thank you for staying with us.
And we look forward to chattingwith you again or coming to you
again in the very near futurewith our next episode. So thank
you very much, and have a greatday. And remember when you're
out there playing. Let's try andkeep that golf ball on the short
grass. Take care.

Amy (Studio) (59:04):
You have been listening to our podcast show.
We're talking golf, produced bythe world of golf. This episode
was recorded on Tuesday, January18 2022. If you have an idea for
a future show, please send us anemail to: [e-mail]
-- Please include podcast showin the subject line. This show

(59:26):
is the copyright of the world ofgolf. Thank you for joining us