May 13, 2022 • 23 mins
Content and Services Director, Rebecca Durose-Croft talks with Simon Haynes, producer and owner of film and video production company S H Creative, about how the use of video in educational materials has changed over the past decade, and what the future of video looks like in the advent of new media.
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Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:00):
Hi, I'm Rebecca Durose-Croft, Content
and Services Director atWestchester Education.
Welcome to Westchester w ords,UK and international.
Today I'm joined by animator andvideo producer, Simon H aynes,
director of the video productioncompany, S H creative.
And if I can be so bold to sayalso a great g uy to know and
work with.
Welcome to Westchester Words,Simon.
Simon Haynes (00:20):
Thank you very much, Rebecca.
That's a lovely introduction.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:23):
You're more than welcome.
So let's start with a little bitabout you Simon.
How did you get into thisindustry and in particular
working on educationalmaterials?
Simon Haynes (00:31):
Uh, yeah, that's a great, great question.
And, and to be honest, it's overa long period of time.
Um, I think we've worked witheach other haven't we?
For what would you say?
12, 14 years.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
About that.
Yeah.
Way back when I first startedOUP.
Simon Haynes (00:44):
So yeah, I started as a junior creative in, in the
advertising industry back inabout 95.
Uh, my role, if you like, wasworking above the line.
So we worked across film, TV,cinema print, radio.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:57):
Okay.
So everything then.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (00:58):
Yeah.
Well, not everything actually,because you had below the line
agencies then, uh, that dealtmuch more with direct marketing
and what, what then became EDM.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (01:08):
Okay.
Simon Haynes (01:08):
But agencies suddenly took on this kind of
change, transition.
Uh, they became more integrated,uh, which meant that they
combined all the skills andreally this happened when the
digital age kind of came along.
Mm-hmm um, not to give you thehistory of, of ad agencies and
what they've become today.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (01:25):
No, it's interesting.
And it's relevant.
Simon Haynes (01:27):
Oh yeah.
No, absolutely.
And I think cuz actually it isrelevant because a lot of the
clients that I work with todaytalk about, uh, omnichannel
marketing and omnichannelmarketing is quite complicated.
Um, there are experts in thisfield, so I'm not pretending to
be one of those expertsbut I work with a lot of them
and, and it is my role generallyin this, uh, arena is to, is to
(01:48):
take an idea and make sure thatit remains constant to all the
users in that journey, no matterwhere, at what point they
interact with the brand, if youlike.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that is, I think thatis really relevant to what film
does and uh, film being anencompassing word for everything
that is, uh, moving visualmm-hmm uh, so that
could be, uh, motion, graphics,film, animation, that kind of
(02:11):
thing.
But I, you know, in thatindustry, you, you do, you, you
work agency side, some people goover and work client side.
I did a little bit of clientside, um, work, um, but around
about 2002, I started to see ashift in the market.
Um, in film production, we werestarting to see briefs come in
(02:32):
from, from clients where not toput too big a figure on it, but
they were kind of 300,000 poundbudget, film, production
budgets.
And that would be, that would be, uh, a kind of average film
production budget.
And we were seeing them cut andwe were seeing them cut to
something like 30, 50 K, which,uh, sounds like a lot.
Yeah.
(02:53):
But, but there was a shift inchange in, in the way that
people started to use film.
And one of those changes was in,at the time they were calling
viral mm-hmm um,you know, viral was something
that was stuck on YouTube or anyother SOC what we are calling
social media platforms thesedays.
And it was then marketed to be ahigh performing viral.
(03:15):
So high performing virals werethings the, you got lots and
lots of people watching themeffectively.
It was kind of early days.
Yeah.
But, uh, there was definitely,there was definitely a shift
there.
And I think one of the shiftsthat followed it was making film
production more affordable.
Mm-hmm um, not onlythe equipment, but also the B
the means by which you couldedit and produce those films
started to become moreaffordable and more accessible
(03:38):
as well.
Mm-hmm so fastforward really quickly to say
2008, when I started sh creativeor sh creative was already
started to be honest, but theclients I was working with were
demanding more and more film.
I was able to enter the kind offilm production arena on quite a
(03:59):
small budget compared to what Iwould've had to have probably
spent 10 years prior to that.
So cameras were cheaper.
There was a, a bit of a funnytime around about then where
there was a, uh, a D O P.
So director of photography,someone who, who was, was very
much championing the, uh, fivedmark two camera as, uh, a means
(04:23):
by which you could, you couldshoot really beautiful high
quality film using a, a stillscamera and Canon were kind of,
Canon kind of started leadingthat.
And that gave a shift in themarket and PE and gave, it,
gave, it gave people likemyself, the ability to be able
to shoot really good qualityfilm, uh, at, at quite a low
budget cost.
(04:44):
Um, so that was, that was aninteresting, that was a really
interesting time.
Yeah.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (04:48):
And like you say, on, on an accessibility
note as well, you know, openingit up and, you know, not just,
it is not just making itaccessible for people who want
to create, create the video andcreate the, the art and all of
that, but actually it'saccessible for people who want
to watch it as well.
Isn't it?
Cause suddenly you can go ontothe internet to watch things,
which we didn't have, you know,back in the nineties when you
were starting out.
(05:08):
Um, so it's interesting on thatnote as well, and especially
thinking about in education, howto view video in a, in a
classroom will have completelychanged at that time.
Um, because of the digitalrevolution.
Simon Haynes (05:18):
Really.
Yeah.
I think it's amazing.
Um, we've, we've, we've, we'vehad issues, we've had problems
and I know that working withproduction, with publishers as
well, accessing classrooms canbe quite problematic.
Of
Rebecca Durose-Croft (05:29):
Course.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (05:30):
Um, yeah.
And so, so, but you get overthese issues by working with,
um, everybody who's in thechain, if you, if you like.
Yes.
Yeah.
So working with local councils,perhaps looking at how, um, you
can work with schools in a, in a, in a larger group to be able
to, um, to be able to work withtheir it departments and people
(05:51):
who govern what can be seen inschools.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I think there's quite a bigresponsibility with everybody as
well.
I've always said that, I thinkit's really important in these
environments that you are, thatyou are safeguarding the people
that you're working with.
Uh, so that's a, quite a bigproduction responsibility.
So I think running a productioncompany, you realize that you
have to have many hats.
(06:12):
You're not only are you not onlyyou looking through the camera
and working, obviously withpeople like yourselves to make
sure that we are capturingexactly what you're after, but
also you are thinking aboutsafeguarding, not only the
school safeguarding, butsafeguarding all the people that
work for you as well.
Yeah.
So that you're creating a reallyopen and honest environment for
people to work
Rebecca Durose-Croft (06:31):
In.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it, it's really interestingthinking back to, I mean, we've
been working together for wayover a decade now.
And when I think back to thetypes of things we were working
on, when we first, when we firststarted working together, they
tended to be, uh, like in astudio based or, you know, set
in an office lot, lots oftalking heads with experts and
that kind of thing.
And then I can, I can see the,the, the, the shift we took to
(06:55):
then, you know, then we'd be onsite, we'd be, um, working in
schools and filming teachersand, and pupils and to your
point, you know, working on thatsafeguarding and that kind of
thing.
Um, and then I can see howwe've, we've now moved.
And the, the types of thingswe've been working on together
have tended to be animation andmore, more of like a digital
base, um, rather than kind oflive live footage and live, live
, live action filming, if youwill.
(07:17):
Um, I just wonder if you've seenthat change as well, or if
that's just how, how I've viewedit, because the projects we've
been working on together, it'dbe great to see, to understand
your, your kind of perception ofhow, how the trends have shifted
in the education market since wefirst started working
Simon Haynes (07:32):
Together.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, this is, this is easy.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (07:34):
It's a big question.
,
Simon Haynes (07:35):
It's a big, it's not, no it is is a big question,
but also it's, it's a lovelyquestion because, you know,
we've had the luxury of beingable to see the last decade, if
you, if you like with, uh, how,how, uh, video and, and
production film productionmyself, and also working with
other people how that'sprogressed.
And I think people have filled arole if you like, where perhaps
(07:59):
when we first started workingtogether, we were there wasn't a
dedicated role to filmproduction per se, within,
within production companies.
At least I, I, wasn't seeingthat, um, to then creating roles
and those roles came throughpeople taking on the
responsibility initially withintheir existing role, but then
(08:19):
soon finding out that to, to doreal film production takes an
awful lot of time.
Um, yeah, it does.
And if your, if, if your roleis, is not film production, then
yes, you've gotta rely on otherpeople supporting you, but also
self development's really, uh,important.
So I've been involved on anumber of different projects
(08:40):
that, that, where you workdirectly to people who are
responsible for videoproduction, you take on the role
in other projects where you areresponsible for the video
production and then of late, ifyou, if you come the whole
circle, I've been working withclients to help them train staff
to take on their own videoproduction.
So having in house producers,
Rebecca Durose-Croft (09:02):
That's interesting.
That's really interesting.
No, I felt a similar trendactually.
Um, recently there's been a bitmore understanding of wanting
somebody in house to do thingslike the editing afterwards, you
know, to, someone's gonna sit onfinal cut and do some editing in
house and, and work it that wayso that the content can be
reused or reversioned, uh, forfurther down the line, which
I've, thought's quiteinteresting, cuz yeah,
(09:22):
definitely over the past 10years it's been that you, you
produce it and you hand it overand it's done and dusted, but I
have that.
Yeah.
I, I, I've been seeing that abit more too, just that more of
an understanding of videoproduction and more of a want to
get involved.
Simon Haynes (09:34):
Yeah, this goes back to film production being
more accessible and effectivelymaking budgets more realistic.
So we're not looking at blownout budgets that doesn't make
film affordable.
It does make content, uh, filmaffordable.
And then I feel that there'salso the addition of affordable
content.
(09:54):
So you've got huge libraries aswell that you can access for
content.
So you don't actually have to goout and film anything you can
rely on, uh, stock video, uh,and quite a lot of production,
larger production companies, uh,don't have the ability to go out
and film.
They, they will use stock.
Um, and we could, we could getonto a larger conversation about
(10:17):
, uh, these bigger mediaproduction companies who work
directly to clients.
Um, but from, from what you weresaying internally, I think there
is, there has been a shift.
Um, and I think it's a, it's asimple change.
It's simple change in filmproduction.
(10:38):
Um, if you like is the use ofthe media across multiple
platforms.
Um, and if you have a piece offilm that's cut and edited and
produced in the, if you, if yourewound 12 years, I think that
will be put online and then youwould assess how many people
came to watch it.
(10:58):
Yeah.
It's no longer the case, is itbecause what you do is you have
that simple film.
If you used an external agencyor whether you've used an
external production company, um,or whether you've shot it
internally, you, you can havethe, you can take on the role of
reuse.
And I think reuse is what youwere talking about earlier is
quite a big thing now.
Yeah, I agree.
It's a good thing as wellbecause you've shot something
(11:20):
and you don't use it again.
And it seems crazy doesn't itnow to think of it.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (11:25):
Really does.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (11:27):
Uh, because there's so many ways of using it
, uh, even if you are publishingsomething which is, um,
continual professionaldevelopment, for example, that's
hidden behind a pay wall.
There, there there's there'selements of that, that you can
use to share to market it.
Um, for example, it might be areally simple example, but, uh,
and, and then relying onexternals to do that for you is
(11:49):
quite costly.
Whereas doing somethinginternally seems, it seems much
more from a production valuepoint of view to have somebody
in house who's able to do that.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (11:58):
Yeah, I completely agree.
And just to your point aboutmarketing as well, I think it's
thinking back to when we werefirst or I was first working in
film with you kind of, you know,12, 14 years ago.
A lot of the film that we wereproducing was for marketing
reasons.
It was either, you know, workingwith publishers and it was, it
was education based, but it waseither marketing or it was
supplementary to a piece ofmaterial, but, but wasn't kind
(12:20):
of asked for by the, you know,by the client or by the, the,
you know, the, um, the market,they weren't actually asking for
it.
You know, it was something thatwe were kind of giving to them
because we could, um, whereasnow they're coming to us for,
for that, you know, they've gotthat, that bigger understanding
of video and, and how it can,how it can work in the
classrooms, especially in lightof blended learning, um, and in
(12:43):
light of the pandemic as well.
And I, I was wondering not totalk too much about that, but
did, did you see a change inwhat clients were asking for,
um, during or after thepandemic?
Did it impact the kind of workyou were producing at all?
Simon Haynes (12:57):
Yeah, I think the short answer is yes.
.
I, I, we, we go, um, if we goback one little step, I think
that just before the pandemic,um, the shift, as you've rightly
said was where you were creatingwhat I would call awareness, led
marketing.
So you're making people aware ofa product and you're giving them
(13:18):
a reason to go and find out moreabout that product.
And that kind of, that isperfect for marketing, isn't it,
mm-hmm, perfectmarketing, sales and sales.
I think people started to wantcontent for nothing content for
free, um, because I can goonline, go to BBC.
I can go to other, um, platformsand I can find what I'm looking
(13:39):
for and I'm not charged for it.
So there's, there's a dilemmathere isn't there of what you
are prepared to give away.
Yes.
Well, we do.
I, I dunno what you call that,but I, in a way, what it is is
it's, it's kind of quitereactive.
Um, and what I'm looking for ismostly digestible chunks of
(13:59):
content.
And I think audience behavior inonline in general is, or was
looked at as being what's what'sthe attention time that, that
this person or this, this useris prepared to give to this
piece of content.
If I, if I'm not looking for apiece of content and I chance
(14:22):
across a film and it draws myattention, I might have 20
seconds to grab you and make youwatch that film.
Okay.
Yeah.
Or piece of content.
However, if I'm a captiveaudience and I'm really looking
for a piece of content, you'vegot me for longer, but there is
a, there is a time that I'mgoing to give up and stop
watching.
And then there's a time whereI'm going to take more interest
(14:42):
and I'm going, what, what elsedo you give me?
What else can you offer?
Um, and in a way I I'm lookingat also self-serving content as
well, and this is pre pandemic.
Yeah.
I think some of this still, youknow, most of it still stands
today, but there's a kind ofelement of self-serve as well
and how, how we use that, uh,type of content.
(15:07):
Um, so a good, good example ofself-ser is how to film.
So how do, how do I use yourwebsite?
How do I use your product?
You know, and I can educatemyself a little bit and become,
become knowledgeable as well.
Although it'd be a very smallamount of knowledge.
And I think you could leap fromthere, especially in education
to the PD, um, opportunities.
Yeah.
And I've done a lot of work inPD and I love working in PD
(15:31):
because you really get into thenitty gritty and you really work
on huge projects.
So I've worked on a projectwhere we've produced 300 films,
for example, um, I worked on aproject that was a secondary,
um, um, revision, uh, platformthat was used in conjunction
with publishing and books.
(15:52):
So you'd be reading something,learning something, teaching
something, and in the classroom,you could then bring the videos
into the classroom, or you couldempower the student and get them
to do some learning before theycome into the subject.
So a little bit of pre-learning,um, and the, these, these, these
kind of platforms are paidbehind a pay wall.
You have to pay a license forthem, but they're great to work
(16:15):
on as well, you know, from mypoint of view.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (16:18):
Thinking, yeah, that, I mean, the revision
platform really was, was that,was that type of work being done
before the pandemic then?
Or was that something that cameout of the pandemic, cuz you
could see that kind of, thatkind of setup really working,
you know, when, when, especiallywhen kids were at home having to
be homeschooled.
Simon Haynes (16:33):
From my point of view, we were doing a lot of it
before the pandemic.
Okay.
And I think I started to see alot of people giving away, um,
that kind of content for free.
Yeah.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (16:43):
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (16:43):
Because the pandemic United a lot of, uh,
educationists, didn't it?
It did.
Yes.
And that Includes publishersschools.
We were effectively looking forways to be able to continue
delivering, you know, educationusing the excellence that we've
created.
Really.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (17:00):
Yes.
It was a real working togethereffort, wasn't it?
Simon Haynes (17:02):
Exactly.
Um, and I think you, you askedabout how did, how did the
pandemic impact work?
My, my work or any work thatanyone was producing?
I think you can successfully saythat COVID stopped a lot of
projects from starting.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (17:18):
Yeah.
I can imagine.
And I mean, thinking about anylive filming as well, that's
just, that's just out thewindow, isn't it?
Simon Haynes (17:24):
Yeah.
I found that internal started tomake their own...
Rebecca Durose-Croft (17:27):
Yes.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (17:28):
Content, and that, that was happening already.
U m, I was working with aclient, u m, not an educational
client, actually.
It was a, it was a completelydifferent, but what they were
doing a lot of i s they weredoing a lot of going to events
and filming and interviewingpeople.
U h, they, they couldn't affordto have production companies in
tow all the time.
(17:49):
It wasn't a Netflix productionof formula.
I d idn't know.
Y es.
Y eah.
< laugh> it was k ind o f, itreally, i t really, it really
was low budget, so I h elpedtrain them in developing t heir
use of their phones.
O h.
So smart using smartphone andhow to integrate, u h, alongside
that, u m, remote, u h,recording.
So audio being a massive issuewith recording with smartphone.
(18:12):
So this is basically, u m, whatI call internals making their
own.
Yes.
Y eah.
S o people, clients, marketingdepartments, publishers,
editors, they were able tocreate their own content,
working with educational expertsas well.
U m, and I think, I think thatthat had a huge power to it.
And t he, the beauty is that youcan rerecord these days.
(18:34):
You don't make something andit's up there forever.
You if, i f, if you w ant t oupdate it, if you want to make
it better, you just rerecord itand you can update through the
platforms that you a rebroadcasting on and, a nd using.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (18:46):
It goes back to that from the top of
this chat really about aroundaccessibility and being able to
access all of this, you know,and thinking about accessing on
mobile and accessing oninternet, you know, um, we, none
of this, if, if the pandemic hadbeen 15, 10, 15 years ago, it
would've been a very differentoutcome in terms of that
accessibility and access tomaterials and information,
wouldn't it?
Simon Haynes (19:06):
Yeah, of course.
Uh, but I think in, in allsituations, what you do is you
look at how you can adapt andhow you can adapt quickly.
Once you've identified what youcan adapt, you, you sprint, you
basically make a, you know, youwork as hard as you can to
achieve that.
And whether you put aside as abusiness, other things that you
are doing, then obviouslythat's, that's, that's a
(19:27):
decision to be made by thebusinesses.
But, um, for example, in thepandemic, when the pandemic hit,
I, we had quite a lot of workthat was lined up.
That was, that was, uh, stopped.
Yeah.
Uh, that was fine.
But I looked at ways that Icould adapt it and motion
graphics was a really obviousway.
Yes.
Yeah.
And also, so I startedpersonally to develop something
(19:49):
called scribing, which I haddone before, but it seemed a
really obvious way to helppeople to get quick messages out
there.
And that's what the work was.
It was quick, quick work.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (19:59):
Yeah.
I've seen some of this scribing,I think it's, it's fantastic.
Can you just describe a bitabout that and to, to the
listeners and what, what thatis?
Simon Haynes (20:06):
Describe scribe?
Rebecca Durose-Croft (20:07):
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (20:07):
Fantastic.
It's really good.
Um, years ago, they came up withthese things that you could put
attached to your computer viaUSB they're called tablets
and you draw on atablet, you just draw on a
tablet, um, which was, and thenit would appear on your screen
and effectively that's scribingwhere you, you physically draw
something, record it at the sametime and then, and then edit it.
(20:31):
Um, and if I was to say that ifI spent a day scribing, I'd
spend a day editing the scribe.
So it's okay really quick.
And what you can achieve, whatyou can achieve in a day of
scribing is, is quite, is quitelarge.
There are some, there are someprograms that you can buy and
you can do your own scribes.
Um, they, they kind of rely onyou using what they, what they
(20:52):
do.
They're quite hard to figure out, um, they're time consuming.
So if your role is not to learnone of those programs, then,
then I think, you know, it madeperfect sense to work with
someone like me who could, whocould make the scribe.
The only thing with scribing isthat you're reliant on the
person who's scribing and theirstyle.
Um, but there is a certain lookto a scribe and a certain feel.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (21:14):
Which I think works really well for
educational materials,especially when it comes to like
maths and science and lookingat, you know, formulas and
things like that and breakingdown sums.
I think it's fantastic for that.
Simon Haynes (21:23):
Scribing is a really cost effective way of
doing that.
Yes.
Yeah.
It always has been, um, I canproduce a minute of scribe in
one hour if required.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (21:33):
That's really, that's Great.
Simon Haynes (21:35):
To film a minute or to, or to animate a vector in
a minute.
Uh, it would, wouldn't be anhour's work it's it's
considerably more so, yeah.
Yeah.
It's a really quick costeffective way of, uh, providing,
you know, producing content.
I like it.
I really like it.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (21:48):
Yeah, I do too.
Um, okay.
So to, to wrap then, then mylast question really is around
new technologies and in theadvent of new technologies,
where does film fit in now?
Cause obviously there's so muchout there.
Where do you see film fittingin, in the educational space?
Simon Haynes (22:04):
Um, film has a place in the advent of new
technologies and it, and it doesfit in, but it's ever-changing.
The demand on film will changein that role.
So you can't, you can't, if youlike, and I've discovered this
over my working life is youcan't learn something and rely
on that.
You learn, you are constantlylearning.
(22:25):
You're constantly adapting andfilm is constantly adapting with
it.
Mm-hmm so film willfit in, but it will be
constantly adapting.
And at the moment, if you said agood example of that is the use
of film in AR VR.
Yes.
And I go back to my expressionthat that film includes
animation motion, graphics, 3d.
But just to wrap this up, if youlike, I think while film's
(22:49):
changing, the one thing thatdoesn't change is your strategy.
The one thing that doesn'tchange is the creative role of
actually writing good content onthose platforms.
Cuz film is not an answer toyour strategic and creative, um,
demands.
Film is the means by which youshow those strategies and
creativity.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (23:09):
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely.
I couldn't agree more Simon.
I couldn't agree more.
Simon Haynes (23:13):
It's exciting.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (23:13):
It is.
And like you say, it's about,it's about adapting and
reacting, isn't it?
It's about keeping on top of, ofnew technologies and, and moving
forward with it so that filmdoes have a place.
Um, but that that's fantastic.
Thank you so much, Simon.
That was such an interestingconversation.
Thank you for joining us today.
Simon Haynes (23:29):
I hope it was.
Thank you very much.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (23:30):
It was Simon.
Thank you.
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international, just searchWestchester words on Spotify,
apple or Google podcasts.
Hi, I'm Rebecca Durose-Croft, Content
and Services Director atWestchester Education.
Welcome to Westchester w ords,UK and international.
Today I'm joined by animator andvideo producer, Simon H aynes,
director of the video productioncompany, S H creative.
And if I can be so bold to sayalso a great g uy to know and
work with.
Welcome to Westchester Words,Simon.
Simon Haynes (00:20):
Thank you very much, Rebecca.
That's a lovely introduction.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:23):
You're more than welcome.
So let's start with a little bitabout you Simon.
How did you get into thisindustry and in particular
working on educationalmaterials?
Simon Haynes (00:31):
Uh, yeah, that's a great, great question.
And, and to be honest, it's overa long period of time.
Um, I think we've worked witheach other haven't we?
For what would you say?
12, 14 years.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
About that.
Yeah.
Way back when I first startedOUP.
Simon Haynes (00:44):
So yeah, I started as a junior creative in, in the
advertising industry back inabout 95.
Uh, my role, if you like, wasworking above the line.
So we worked across film, TV,cinema print, radio.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (00:57):
Okay.
So everything then.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (00:58):
Yeah.
Well, not everything actually,because you had below the line
agencies then, uh, that dealtmuch more with direct marketing
and what, what then became EDM.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (01:08):
Okay.
Simon Haynes (01:08):
But agencies suddenly took on this kind of
change, transition.
Uh, they became more integrated,uh, which meant that they
combined all the skills andreally this happened when the
digital age kind of came along.
Mm-hmm um, not to give you thehistory of, of ad agencies and
what they've become today.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (01:25):
No, it's interesting.
And it's relevant.
Simon Haynes (01:27):
Oh yeah.
No, absolutely.
And I think cuz actually it isrelevant because a lot of the
clients that I work with todaytalk about, uh, omnichannel
marketing and omnichannelmarketing is quite complicated.
Um, there are experts in thisfield, so I'm not pretending to
be one of those experts
and, and it is my role generallyin this, uh, arena is to, is to
(01:48):
take an idea and make sure thatit remains constant to all the
users in that journey, no matterwhere, at what point they
interact with the brand, if youlike.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that is, I think thatis really relevant to what film
does and uh, film being anencompassing word for everything
that is, uh, moving visualmm-hmm
could be, uh, motion, graphics,film, animation, that kind of
(02:11):
thing.
But I, you know, in thatindustry, you, you do, you, you
work agency side, some people goover and work client side.
I did a little bit of clientside, um, work, um, but around
about 2002, I started to see ashift in the market.
Um, in film production, we werestarting to see briefs come in
(02:32):
from, from clients where not toput too big a figure on it, but
they were kind of 300,000 poundbudget, film, production
budgets.
And that would be, that would be, uh, a kind of average film
production budget.
And we were seeing them cut andwe were seeing them cut to
something like 30, 50 K, which,uh, sounds like a lot.
Yeah.
(02:53):
But, but there was a shift inchange in, in the way that
people started to use film.
And one of those changes was in,at the time they were calling
viral mm-hmm
that was stuck on YouTube or anyother SOC what we are calling
social media platforms thesedays.
And it was then marketed to be ahigh performing viral.
(03:15):
So high performing virals werethings the, you got lots and
lots of people watching themeffectively.
It was kind of early days.
Yeah.
But, uh, there was definitely,there was definitely a shift
there.
And I think one of the shiftsthat followed it was making film
production more affordable.
Mm-hmm
the means by which you couldedit and produce those films
started to become moreaffordable and more accessible
(03:38):
as well.
Mm-hmm
2008, when I started sh creativeor sh creative was already
started to be honest, but theclients I was working with were
demanding more and more film.
I was able to enter the kind offilm production arena on quite a
(03:59):
small budget compared to what Iwould've had to have probably
spent 10 years prior to that.
So cameras were cheaper.
There was a, a bit of a funnytime around about then where
there was a, uh, a D O P.
So director of photography,someone who, who was, was very
much championing the, uh, fivedmark two camera as, uh, a means
(04:23):
by which you could, you couldshoot really beautiful high
quality film using a, a stillscamera and Canon were kind of,
Canon kind of started leadingthat.
And that gave a shift in themarket and PE and gave, it,
gave, it gave people likemyself, the ability to be able
to shoot really good qualityfilm, uh, at, at quite a low
budget cost.
(04:44):
Um, so that was, that was aninteresting, that was a really
interesting time.
Yeah.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (04:48):
And like you say, on, on an accessibility
note as well, you know, openingit up and, you know, not just,
it is not just making itaccessible for people who want
to create, create the video andcreate the, the art and all of
that, but actually it'saccessible for people who want
to watch it as well.
Isn't it?
Cause suddenly you can go ontothe internet to watch things,
which we didn't have, you know,back in the nineties when you
were starting out.
(05:08):
Um, so it's interesting on thatnote as well, and especially
thinking about in education, howto view video in a, in a
classroom will have completelychanged at that time.
Um, because of the digitalrevolution.
Simon Haynes (05:18):
Really.
Yeah.
I think it's amazing.
Um, we've, we've, we've, we'vehad issues, we've had problems
and I know that working withproduction, with publishers as
well, accessing classrooms canbe quite problematic.
Of
Rebecca Durose-Croft (05:29):
Course.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (05:30):
Um, yeah.
And so, so, but you get overthese issues by working with,
um, everybody who's in thechain, if you, if you like.
Yes.
Yeah.
So working with local councils,perhaps looking at how, um, you
can work with schools in a, in a, in a larger group to be able
to, um, to be able to work withtheir it departments and people
(05:51):
who govern what can be seen inschools.
Mm-hmm
Yeah.
So I think there's quite a bigresponsibility with everybody as
well.
I've always said that, I thinkit's really important in these
environments that you are, thatyou are safeguarding the people
that you're working with.
Uh, so that's a, quite a bigproduction responsibility.
So I think running a productioncompany, you realize that you
have to have many hats.
(06:12):
You're not only are you not onlyyou looking through the camera
and working, obviously withpeople like yourselves to make
sure that we are capturingexactly what you're after, but
also you are thinking aboutsafeguarding, not only the
school safeguarding, butsafeguarding all the people that
work for you as well.
Yeah.
So that you're creating a reallyopen and honest environment for
people to work
Rebecca Durose-Croft (06:31):
In.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it, it's really interestingthinking back to, I mean, we've
been working together for wayover a decade now.
And when I think back to thetypes of things we were working
on, when we first, when we firststarted working together, they
tended to be, uh, like in astudio based or, you know, set
in an office lot, lots oftalking heads with experts and
that kind of thing.
And then I can, I can see the,the, the, the shift we took to
(06:55):
then, you know, then we'd be onsite, we'd be, um, working in
schools and filming teachersand, and pupils and to your
point, you know, working on thatsafeguarding and that kind of
thing.
Um, and then I can see howwe've, we've now moved.
And the, the types of thingswe've been working on together
have tended to be animation andmore, more of like a digital
base, um, rather than kind oflive live footage and live, live
, live action filming, if youwill.
(07:17):
Um, I just wonder if you've seenthat change as well, or if
that's just how, how I've viewedit, because the projects we've
been working on together, it'dbe great to see, to understand
your, your kind of perception ofhow, how the trends have shifted
in the education market since wefirst started working
Simon Haynes (07:32):
Together.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, this is, this is easy.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (07:34):
It's a big question.
Simon Haynes (07:35):
It's a big, it's not, no it is is a big question,
but also it's, it's a lovelyquestion because, you know,
we've had the luxury of beingable to see the last decade, if
you, if you like with, uh, how,how, uh, video and, and
production film productionmyself, and also working with
other people how that'sprogressed.
And I think people have filled arole if you like, where perhaps
(07:59):
when we first started workingtogether, we were there wasn't a
dedicated role to filmproduction per se, within,
within production companies.
At least I, I, wasn't seeingthat, um, to then creating roles
and those roles came throughpeople taking on the
responsibility initially withintheir existing role, but then
(08:19):
soon finding out that to, to doreal film production takes an
awful lot of time.
Um, yeah, it does.
And if your, if, if your roleis, is not film production, then
yes, you've gotta rely on otherpeople supporting you, but also
self development's really, uh,important.
So I've been involved on anumber of different projects
(08:40):
that, that, where you workdirectly to people who are
responsible for videoproduction, you take on the role
in other projects where you areresponsible for the video
production and then of late, ifyou, if you come the whole
circle, I've been working withclients to help them train staff
to take on their own videoproduction.
So having in house producers,
Rebecca Durose-Croft (09:02):
That's interesting.
That's really interesting.
No, I felt a similar trendactually.
Um, recently there's been a bitmore understanding of wanting
somebody in house to do thingslike the editing afterwards, you
know, to, someone's gonna sit onfinal cut and do some editing in
house and, and work it that wayso that the content can be
reused or reversioned, uh, forfurther down the line, which
I've, thought's quiteinteresting, cuz yeah,
(09:22):
definitely over the past 10years it's been that you, you
produce it and you hand it overand it's done and dusted, but I
have that.
Yeah.
I, I, I've been seeing that abit more too, just that more of
an understanding of videoproduction and more of a want to
get involved.
Simon Haynes (09:34):
Yeah, this goes back to film production being
more accessible and effectivelymaking budgets more realistic.
So we're not looking at blownout budgets that doesn't make
film affordable.
It does make content, uh, filmaffordable.
And then I feel that there'salso the addition of affordable
content.
(09:54):
So you've got huge libraries aswell that you can access for
content.
So you don't actually have to goout and film anything you can
rely on, uh, stock video, uh,and quite a lot of production,
larger production companies, uh,don't have the ability to go out
and film.
They, they will use stock.
Um, and we could, we could getonto a larger conversation about
(10:17):
, uh, these bigger mediaproduction companies who work
directly to clients.
Um, but from, from what you weresaying internally, I think there
is, there has been a shift.
Um, and I think it's a, it's asimple change.
It's simple change in filmproduction.
(10:38):
Um, if you like is the use ofthe media across multiple
platforms.
Um, and if you have a piece offilm that's cut and edited and
produced in the, if you, if yourewound 12 years, I think that
will be put online and then youwould assess how many people
came to watch it.
(10:58):
Yeah.
It's no longer the case, is itbecause what you do is you have
that simple film.
If you used an external agencyor whether you've used an
external production company, um,or whether you've shot it
internally, you, you can havethe, you can take on the role of
reuse.
And I think reuse is what youwere talking about earlier is
quite a big thing now.
Yeah, I agree.
It's a good thing as wellbecause you've shot something
(11:20):
and you don't use it again.
And it seems crazy doesn't itnow to think of it.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (11:25):
Really does.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (11:27):
Uh, because there's so many ways of using it
, uh, even if you are publishingsomething which is, um,
continual professionaldevelopment, for example, that's
hidden behind a pay wall.
There, there there's there'selements of that, that you can
use to share to market it.
Um, for example, it might be areally simple example, but, uh,
and, and then relying onexternals to do that for you is
(11:49):
quite costly.
Whereas doing somethinginternally seems, it seems much
more from a production valuepoint of view to have somebody
in house who's able to do that.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (11:58):
Yeah, I completely agree.
And just to your point aboutmarketing as well, I think it's
thinking back to when we werefirst or I was first working in
film with you kind of, you know,12, 14 years ago.
A lot of the film that we wereproducing was for marketing
reasons.
It was either, you know, workingwith publishers and it was, it
was education based, but it waseither marketing or it was
supplementary to a piece ofmaterial, but, but wasn't kind
(12:20):
of asked for by the, you know,by the client or by the, the,
you know, the, um, the market,they weren't actually asking for
it.
You know, it was something thatwe were kind of giving to them
because we could, um, whereasnow they're coming to us for,
for that, you know, they've gotthat, that bigger understanding
of video and, and how it can,how it can work in the
classrooms, especially in lightof blended learning, um, and in
(12:43):
light of the pandemic as well.
And I, I was wondering not totalk too much about that, but
did, did you see a change inwhat clients were asking for,
um, during or after thepandemic?
Did it impact the kind of workyou were producing at all?
Simon Haynes (12:57):
Yeah, I think the short answer is yes.
I, I, we, we go, um, if we goback one little step, I think
that just before the pandemic,um, the shift, as you've rightly
said was where you were creatingwhat I would call awareness, led
marketing.
So you're making people aware ofa product and you're giving them
(13:18):
a reason to go and find out moreabout that product.
And that kind of, that isperfect for marketing, isn't it,
mm-hmm,
I think people started to wantcontent for nothing content for
free, um, because I can goonline, go to BBC.
I can go to other, um, platformsand I can find what I'm looking
(13:39):
for and I'm not charged for it.
So there's, there's a dilemmathere isn't there of what you
are prepared to give away.
Yes.
Well, we do.
I, I dunno what you call that,but I, in a way, what it is is
it's, it's kind of quitereactive.
Um, and what I'm looking for ismostly digestible chunks of
(13:59):
content.
And I think audience behavior inonline in general is, or was
looked at as being what's what'sthe attention time that, that
this person or this, this useris prepared to give to this
piece of content.
If I, if I'm not looking for apiece of content and I chance
(14:22):
across a film and it draws myattention, I might have 20
seconds to grab you and make youwatch that film.
Okay.
Yeah.
Or piece of content.
However, if I'm a captiveaudience and I'm really looking
for a piece of content, you'vegot me for longer, but there is
a, there is a time that I'mgoing to give up and stop
watching.
And then there's a time whereI'm going to take more interest
(14:42):
and I'm going, what, what elsedo you give me?
What else can you offer?
Um, and in a way I I'm lookingat also self-serving content as
well, and this is pre pandemic.
Yeah.
I think some of this still, youknow, most of it still stands
today, but there's a kind ofelement of self-serve as well
and how, how we use that, uh,type of content.
(15:07):
Um, so a good, good example ofself-ser is how to film.
So how do, how do I use yourwebsite?
How do I use your product?
You know, and I can educatemyself a little bit and become,
become knowledgeable as well.
Although it'd be a very smallamount of knowledge.
And I think you could leap fromthere, especially in education
to the PD, um, opportunities.
Yeah.
And I've done a lot of work inPD and I love working in PD
(15:31):
because you really get into thenitty gritty and you really work
on huge projects.
So I've worked on a projectwhere we've produced 300 films,
for example, um, I worked on aproject that was a secondary,
um, um, revision, uh, platformthat was used in conjunction
with publishing and books.
(15:52):
So you'd be reading something,learning something, teaching
something, and in the classroom,you could then bring the videos
into the classroom, or you couldempower the student and get them
to do some learning before theycome into the subject.
So a little bit of pre-learning,um, and the, these, these, these
kind of platforms are paidbehind a pay wall.
You have to pay a license forthem, but they're great to work
(16:15):
on as well, you know, from mypoint of view.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (16:18):
Thinking, yeah, that, I mean, the revision
platform really was, was that,was that type of work being done
before the pandemic then?
Or was that something that cameout of the pandemic, cuz you
could see that kind of, thatkind of setup really working,
you know, when, when, especiallywhen kids were at home having to
be homeschooled.
Simon Haynes (16:33):
From my point of view, we were doing a lot of it
before the pandemic.
Okay.
And I think I started to see alot of people giving away, um,
that kind of content for free.
Yeah.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (16:43):
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (16:43):
Because the pandemic United a lot of, uh,
educationists, didn't it?
It did.
Yes.
And that Includes publishersschools.
We were effectively looking forways to be able to continue
delivering, you know, educationusing the excellence that we've
created.
Really.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (17:00):
Yes.
It was a real working togethereffort, wasn't it?
Simon Haynes (17:02):
Exactly.
Um, and I think you, you askedabout how did, how did the
pandemic impact work?
My, my work or any work thatanyone was producing?
I think you can successfully saythat COVID stopped a lot of
projects from starting.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (17:18):
Yeah.
I can imagine.
And I mean, thinking about anylive filming as well, that's
just, that's just out thewindow, isn't it?
Simon Haynes (17:24):
Yeah.
I found that internal started tomake their own...
Rebecca Durose-Croft (17:27):
Yes.
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (17:28):
Content, and that, that was happening already.
U m, I was working with aclient, u m, not an educational
client, actually.
It was a, it was a completelydifferent, but what they were
doing a lot of i s they weredoing a lot of going to events
and filming and interviewingpeople.
U h, they, they couldn't affordto have production companies in
tow all the time.
(17:49):
It wasn't a Netflix productionof formula.
I d idn't know.
Y es.
Y eah.
< laugh> it was k ind o f, itreally, i t really, it really
was low budget, so I h elpedtrain them in developing t heir
use of their phones.
O h.
So smart using smartphone andhow to integrate, u h, alongside
that, u m, remote, u h,recording.
So audio being a massive issuewith recording with smartphone.
(18:12):
So this is basically, u m, whatI call internals making their
own.
Yes.
Y eah.
S o people, clients, marketingdepartments, publishers,
editors, they were able tocreate their own content,
working with educational expertsas well.
U m, and I think, I think thatthat had a huge power to it.
And t he, the beauty is that youcan rerecord these days.
(18:34):
You don't make something andit's up there forever.
You if, i f, if you w ant t oupdate it, if you want to make
it better, you just rerecord itand you can update through the
platforms that you a rebroadcasting on and, a nd using.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (18:46):
It goes back to that from the top of
this chat really about aroundaccessibility and being able to
access all of this, you know,and thinking about accessing on
mobile and accessing oninternet, you know, um, we, none
of this, if, if the pandemic hadbeen 15, 10, 15 years ago, it
would've been a very differentoutcome in terms of that
accessibility and access tomaterials and information,
wouldn't it?
Simon Haynes (19:06):
Yeah, of course.
Uh, but I think in, in allsituations, what you do is you
look at how you can adapt andhow you can adapt quickly.
Once you've identified what youcan adapt, you, you sprint, you
basically make a, you know, youwork as hard as you can to
achieve that.
And whether you put aside as abusiness, other things that you
are doing, then obviouslythat's, that's, that's a
(19:27):
decision to be made by thebusinesses.
But, um, for example, in thepandemic, when the pandemic hit,
I, we had quite a lot of workthat was lined up.
That was, that was, uh, stopped.
Yeah.
Uh, that was fine.
But I looked at ways that Icould adapt it and motion
graphics was a really obviousway.
Yes.
Yeah.
And also, so I startedpersonally to develop something
(19:49):
called scribing, which I haddone before, but it seemed a
really obvious way to helppeople to get quick messages out
there.
And that's what the work was.
It was quick, quick work.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (19:59):
Yeah.
I've seen some of this scribing,I think it's, it's fantastic.
Can you just describe a bitabout that and to, to the
listeners and what, what thatis?
Simon Haynes (20:06):
Describe scribe?
Rebecca Durose-Croft (20:07):
Yeah.
Simon Haynes (20:07):
Fantastic.
It's really good.
Um, years ago, they came up withthese things that you could put
attached to your computer viaUSB they're called tablets
tablet, um, which was, and thenit would appear on your screen
and effectively that's scribingwhere you, you physically draw
something, record it at the sametime and then, and then edit it.
(20:31):
Um, and if I was to say that ifI spent a day scribing, I'd
spend a day editing the scribe.
So it's okay really quick.
And what you can achieve, whatyou can achieve in a day of
scribing is, is quite, is quitelarge.
There are some, there are someprograms that you can buy and
you can do your own scribes.
Um, they, they kind of rely onyou using what they, what they
(20:52):
do.
They're quite hard to figure out, um, they're time consuming.
So if your role is not to learnone of those programs, then,
then I think, you know, it madeperfect sense to work with
someone like me who could, whocould make the scribe.
The only thing with scribing isthat you're reliant on the
person who's scribing and theirstyle.
Um, but there is a certain lookto a scribe and a certain feel.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (21:14):
Which I think works really well for
educational materials,especially when it comes to like
maths and science and lookingat, you know, formulas and
things like that and breakingdown sums.
I think it's fantastic for that.
Simon Haynes (21:23):
Scribing is a really cost effective way of
doing that.
Yes.
Yeah.
It always has been, um, I canproduce a minute of scribe in
one hour if required.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (21:33):
That's really, that's Great.
Simon Haynes (21:35):
To film a minute or to, or to animate a vector in
a minute.
Uh, it would, wouldn't be anhour's work it's it's
considerably more so, yeah.
Yeah.
It's a really quick costeffective way of, uh, providing,
you know, producing content.
I like it.
I really like it.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (21:48):
Yeah, I do too.
Um, okay.
So to, to wrap then, then mylast question really is around
new technologies and in theadvent of new technologies,
where does film fit in now?
Cause obviously there's so muchout there.
Where do you see film fittingin, in the educational space?
Simon Haynes (22:04):
Um, film has a place in the advent of new
technologies and it, and it doesfit in, but it's ever-changing.
The demand on film will changein that role.
So you can't, you can't, if youlike, and I've discovered this
over my working life is youcan't learn something and rely
on that.
You learn, you are constantlylearning.
(22:25):
You're constantly adapting andfilm is constantly adapting with
it.
Mm-hmm
constantly adapting.
And at the moment, if you said agood example of that is the use
of film in AR VR.
Yes.
And I go back to my expressionthat that film includes
animation motion, graphics, 3d.
But just to wrap this up, if youlike, I think while film's
(22:49):
changing, the one thing thatdoesn't change is your strategy.
The one thing that doesn'tchange is the creative role of
actually writing good content onthose platforms.
Cuz film is not an answer toyour strategic and creative, um,
demands.
Film is the means by which youshow those strategies and
creativity.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (23:09):
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely.
I couldn't agree more Simon.
I couldn't agree more.
Simon Haynes (23:13):
It's exciting.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (23:13):
It is.
And like you say, it's about,it's about adapting and
reacting, isn't it?
It's about keeping on top of, ofnew technologies and, and moving
forward with it so that filmdoes have a place.
Um, but that that's fantastic.
Thank you so much, Simon.
That was such an interestingconversation.
Thank you for joining us today.
Simon Haynes (23:29):
I hope it was.
Thank you very much.
Rebecca Durose-Croft (23:30):
It was Simon.
Thank you.
For more podcasts fromWestchester Words, UK and
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.