March 5, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, Jim Hertzfeld welcomes Efi Pylarinou, a Wall Street pro, former academic, and FinTech expert. They discuss the evolution of financial services, the concept of everywhere banking, and the impact of AI and other emerging technologies on the industry. Efi shares insights on the importance of adapting to new tech cycles, the challenges of legacy systems, and the need for a change in mindset to thrive in the world of AI.
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Episode Transcript
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Efi Pylarinou (00:06):
get your data architecture in order, whether
you're a small business, amedium business or a large
business.
You know, getting your dataarchitecture in order was also
necessary for the mobile era,but a lot of companies patched
it with band-aids and all sortsof temporary solutions.
Jim Hertzfeld (00:31):
Welcome to "What If?
So What?
, the podcast where we explorewhat's possible with digital and
discover how to make it real inyour business.
I'm your host, jim Hertzfeld,and we get shit done by asking
digital leaders the rightquestions what, if so what?
And, most importantly now, what.
I am really happy to welcomeEffie Pylarinou, wall Street pro
former academic, fintech expert, speaker, author and podcast
(00:55):
guest.
Welcome to the show, Efi.
Efi Pylarinou (00:57):
Thank you very much.
I'm delighted to be on thisshow and, as I realized to be
through a tweet on X, I pressedGrog and because I was quoted or
tagged in that tweet, grogspoke about me and said things
about me.
You know, Efi Larinu is afintech influencer, she talks
(01:18):
about these topics and so on,and most of it was very good.
I'm quite impressed with thatsort of introduction, if you
want, from Grok.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:28):
I'll have to do the same and see what comes up
for me, if anything.
Well, that's good.
You have a pretty broadbackground.
I love your story.
Could you just tell us a littlebit about kind of how you got
here, kind of where your careertook you on a couple of turns
maybe, and how you got heretoday?
Just give us a little bit ofbackground.
Efi Pylarinou (01:43):
First of all, I'm joining you from the heart of
Europe, Switzerland, out of theEU, up close to the Swiss Alps.
I'm based in Zurich.
I've been here for 10 years andpretty much for the decade.
That really defines what Ithink of as my fintech career,
where I decided to dedicatemyself to all the innovations in
(02:06):
financial services, and I doconfess that 10 years ago it was
easy to follow everything andeverybody globally, and now it's
such a challenge.
I came to that decision becauseI started my career on Wall
Street in New York in the 90s.
I joined Solomon Brothers Forthose that are much younger,
(02:29):
that was one of the top, I wouldsay, boutique investment banks
and Wall Street companies of thetime, and I mentioned this
because the culture was verycutthroat compared to any other
company.
And those were my formativeyears, if you want.
(02:51):
And life brought me to live andwork in several countries
because I married a diplomat andI started reinventing myself
and working remotely from thedifferent posts where we were
moving.
I had the opportunities to moveto Canada to teach at McGill
during a very interesting timethe 2008 global financial crisis
(03:13):
.
I was teaching real estatefinance when everything was
collapsing.
Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, youknow, were changing the whole
capital markets.
Everything was impacted.
So you know, if I look back,I've been in that hardcore,
traditional wholesale if youwant financial services and
(03:38):
banking at the heart of thefinancial hub, if you want New
York.
And now I'm finding myself inSwitzerland, which, on the one
hand, is a top country, numberone for 18 years in innovation
globally and broadly, notnecessarily in financial
services, but we live in a timewhere everything is more
(04:01):
decentralized and everything ismore global, and everything is
more connected.
And that's how I kind ofoperate on a global network.
Jim Hertzfeld (04:11):
That's exciting.
So you'd mentioned that Solomonwas a cutthroat environment and
those were your formative years.
So I'm sure there were somescar tissue that got you to
where you are and sort of formedyour perspective.
So I'm interested in hearingmore about that as we talk
through.
But you know it's interestingyou're in Zurich because I think
in the United States part ofour business culture is
sometimes we believe that thisis the center of the global
(04:33):
economy and you're absolutelycorrect on many levels not just
in global finance, but intechnology and culture it is a
very distributed.
I think we often forget or wedon't realize how much
globalization has impacted theway we work and live.
So it's interesting that yourhusband is a diplomat and has
given you that exposure as well,so that's fascinating.
(04:55):
You know you've seen a lot ofchanges.
It seems like, not to introducetoo much recency bias, but it
seemed like the changes arehappening more and more and
they're more impactful.
Much recency bias, but itseemed like the changes are
happening more and more andthey're more impactful
Technology, cultural, economic,political.
It's now early 2025.
There are some big changeshappening, seems like daily, but
from some of the things I knowyou've written and spoken about,
(05:16):
you know around fintech andBitcoin and AI, and your recent
blog post talked about X moneyand deep seek was just announced
last week.
How do you keep up, what areyou focusing on and what are the
big changes that you're payingthe most attention to these days
.
Efi Pylarinou (05:32):
Well, I must admit that you know financial
services.
Over the past decade, bordersof what we think of financial
services don't exist anymore, orrather, they are reshaped and
extended as we speak.
They used to be within theconfines of physical branches
(05:53):
and physical banks, I mean.
We moved to mobile banking.
We are actually I don't know ifyou realize we are in the stage
of everywhere banking.
You can do banking one-commerce sites, on travel
sites, on educational sites, onall sorts of businesses, and we
can give some examples, but theboundaries are changing, so
(06:17):
they're changing for manyreasons.
The enabler are thesetechnologies and right now we
are in the beginning of a newmajor tech cycle.
We've gone through the cloudcycle and the mobile cycle.
Some talk about it as thedigital tech cycle.
(06:39):
I would say that cloud andmobile were major tech cycles
and now, although AI has beenaround for a very long time and
especially in our end offinancial services, it's been
used for a very long time.
It's not new.
However, the advancements, therecent advancements, really are
shifting everything and areopening up a new kind of
(07:03):
possibility of moving to anintelligent era.
So, in order to make sense ofwhat possible scenarios we're
going to live in, because Ican't predict the future and
nobody can, but we can thinkthrough scenarios that are
possible, given what problems wehave, what opportunities we
(07:24):
have, what economic - becausewe're talking about economically
viable businesses -technologies that are enablers,
and then look at scenarios.
So, I look at the technologiesand then I try to understand
what scenarios are possible.
Right, one scenario in one areathat I'm watching is this
(07:46):
everywhere banking trend.
It's not about whether it's atthe physical branch or on your
mobile.
It's about whether you can beserved for your financial needs
where you're at.
And that might be you want tobuy a house.
Why do you need to go to yourbanking mobile app when it's all
(08:08):
about who's going to help youto make that decision and close
that decision and serve thatdecision?
And maybe you want to do it ona real estate app, right?
Or if you're shopping on aretail site, the same you need
some credit, if you need someinsurance, you need different
(08:30):
payment choices.
You have it there.
So that's one big trend thatI'm watching.
And another big trend is thesenew businesses that are fintechs
in disguise, if you want.
So these are businesses thatare not financials, but most of
their revenues are earnedthrough offering financial
(08:51):
services, and this is a new typeof greed.
These are sort of very tangibletrends that you and whoever
who's not focused in financialservices could understand.
And then there's other trendsthat are really about how
regulation is changing, howgeopolitics are changing that,
(09:14):
whether we will have digitalidentity on a blockchain, for
example, which is very core tomoving to the future of the
internet.
We need that.
The current way the internet,you know, it was not set up to
(09:35):
be doing all these transactionsthat we are doing whether we are
putting in our card details arerepeatedly being authenticated.
All these are issues that needto be solved.
So, they're linked, becauseyour digital identity is really
the most precious asset that youhave, and you would think that
(09:55):
banks would be taking care ofthat.
We're not there, but these arethings that we're watching.
Then I'm watching what's goingon with money what is money?
Traditionally?
We all understand what money is.
And then there's the big topicof AI how it's going to change
and is changing financialservices, how quantum is not
(10:19):
only a risk but also anopportunity in financial
services.
And I'm also watchingcybersecurity issues, which are
a big headache and increasingglobally, and I'll stop there
because there's so many topicsthere.
Some of them are very core atthe infrastructure level, like
(10:40):
what is money?
Who can issue money on whatrails does money move in the US?
In the US, the US is reallybehind in payments and how money
is moved In other parts of theworld.
We have real-time payments Inemerging markets like India and
Brazil.
The governments and the centralbanks have created new
(11:01):
infrastructures, so there's newrails, new ways happening, and
all this is connected totechnology and geopolitics and
the geoeconomics.
Jim Hertzfeld (11:12):
So, that is a lot .
There's a lot on your mind, Efi.
There is a lot on my mind thatstood out and I guess even just
kind of our prior conversationsand following up with some of
your work.
You know you mentioned sort ofeverywhere banking, I think that
one most people can relate to.
(11:33):
I've heard that called maybeembedded finance and I think
different terms for it, becausewe recognize everyone has a
wallet and maybe has some cashin it or a credit card.
So, I think most people canrelate to that.
What I find fascinating is, youknow, it is disruptive for sure,
right, it is global.
We talked about this isextending.
Now, if you know, there aresome country over country
(11:54):
differences.
They can't be ignored.
They're going to impact globalmarkets.
But if you are sort of theeveryday, maybe a digital
professional, someone who grewup in that web era or even in
that cloud era, I was thinkingto myself at one point in the
90s we put an E in front ofeverything.
We called it e-business, right,and that was sort of new.
And then we started to put an Iin front of things because it
(12:16):
was like the iPhone and now theI is intelligent.
But as people who grew up inthat sort of web, digital, even
cloud, era who think they haveit together, you're kind of
opening up a whole newdiscipline.
I think that people need to payattention to Because in legacy,
or again, traditional businessor businesses, they're going to
be challenged.
This is the innovator's dilemmawe talk about all the time.
(12:39):
There are going to be thesefintech startups that are really
challenging major global banks,right and currencies.
They have to pay attention toit.
But for the everyday digitalprofessional, I think you maybe
made the case, but why shouldthey pay attention and start to
learn about these movements inthe financial services and
fintech market?
Efi Pylarinou (12:59):
Because, quite frankly, they are going to
impact the way we earn ourliving, the way we work,
everything, all our life, andtherefore we are right now at an
inflection point whereeverything is interconnected.
We have these technologies thatare advancing, and at a very
(13:22):
fast pace.
We have socioeconomic trendslike the future of work and the
future of mobility and thesetypes of trends, and they're all
connected and creating verydifferent possibilities in
really every aspect of our life.
And let's not forget thatfinancial services are core to
(13:46):
any economic activity and thatis never going to change.
Doesn't matter if we use cryptoor blockchains or whatever.
That will remain core and thatis really the reason that, like
we say now, you know, ai isgeneral purpose technology that
affects everything.
Well, financial services affectevery economic activity and, in
(14:11):
that sense, they're behindeverything, and that is really
the reason that everyone shouldcare.
This is going to change everyindustry, society.
As I said, how we work, how weearn our money, how we educate
our values, how we are thinkingof, what our assets it's just
(14:32):
going to be a major changebefore and maybe they're getting
shorter, yes, and this one withAI feels to accelerate faster,
but nobody knows.
We will see how the adoptiongoes.
(14:54):
One thing that is clear withthis upcoming wave is, I think,
those that are of the camp oflet me see what everybody else
does and then you know, when thedust has settled I will catch
up.
Right, and that worked beforefor some, not for everybody,
(15:15):
right For some.
I think this time it will notwork, because not only we're
talking about fast pace, theywon't be able to catch up when
everything is said and done andwe can talk about why is that
and what can be done.
But I like to always bring upthis Greek myth, icarus myth.
(15:37):
I don't know if you know aboutit.
Jim Hertzfeld (15:40):
I am familiar yeah.
Efi Pylarinou (15:42):
So you know, everybody that knows Icarus myth
thinks that, okay, youshouldn't fly too high, because
you know he flew and his waxwings - too close to the sun,
right, because he went too highclose to the sun, right.
But what is not discussed somuch is that that myth also was
talking about danger of alsoflying too low, and that is not
(16:06):
talked about so much.
So, there's a danger of flyingtoo high, close to the sun, but
also too low, close to the sea,and you'll never really take off
and go anywhere.
You're going to drown.
You know the Greeks, they'rewise, right, you have to know
the dark but hey, a leastthey're wise, right?
No, the dark, but hey, so let'sthink of that.
(16:28):
It was true during the cloudand mobile era, but now it's
really pressing and very true.
And, yeah, I would say thatthere's two main things in terms
of not flying low.
Not flying low If you were toput an alert on your board to
yourself and say, you know,danger here, I really need, we
(16:58):
really need to move, and there'stwo things that need to be done
absolutely now, yesterday.
One is a change of mindset andthe second is get your data
architecture in order.
Whether you're a small business,a medium business or a large
business, you know, getting yourdata architecture in order was
also necessary for the mobileera, but a lot of companies
(17:23):
patched it with band-aids andall sorts of temporary solutions
.
I don't think there's any moretime for temporary and band-aids
, because the AI era is reallylike you don't have something to
feed that you know the engineof your car, whatever the
analogy is, and you need to dothat.
(17:46):
Whether it's your proprietarydata or not, it doesn't matter.
You have to do dataarchitecture.
Jim Hertzfeld (17:53):
Well, that's good advice.
I mean, I think, yeah, I wasgoing to ask you sort of what's
preventing people.
I mean that's great advice.
I think we've been talkingabout that for a while, whether
you're just taking a data firstphilosophy and you just have to
have better handle on youroperation, right, you just have
to have better businessintelligence or analytics.
But I think the stakes are highwith AI.
The stakes are higher becausewe need to start leveraging that
(18:15):
data, exposing and utilizingand monetizing that data with AI
in a number of ways andenriching that with others.
I think that's great advice.
But I want to touch on somethingin your book, fast Future Blur.
That's a lot.
There's a lot on your mindsthat you talk about, but you
talk about thinking like an AInative.
That, I think, is really whatyou're getting at.
You know again this evolutionof maybe you were digital native
(18:37):
or through cloud mobile,thinking and acting like an AI
native.
And there are businesses andbusiness models that are going
to be built on AI, but as anestablished organization, being
grounded in the financialsystems that you're involved in,
in your data, having the rightmindset those all sound great.
But what's preventingindividuals or what's preventing
companies from adopting that?
(18:58):
They're just hanging on to whatthey know well, is it?
They don't have the competencyor the vision.
I mean.
What do you see as kind ofholding companies back?
Efi Pylarinou (19:06):
Well, there's many factors, but I would say
the first is legacy debt, andthat's both technical debt and
maybe, you know, the fintechs.
The grownups don't have that,right.
There's the mindset - not yet,not yet, right?
But there's the mindset thateven the grownup FinTechs, it's
not clear that they have themindset to really understand how
(19:29):
to adopt AI towards becoming anAI native.
And why do I make thisdistinction?
Because just using AI as a toolhere and there is not going to
change culture.
Much like two decades ago, ifyou were a traditional business
and you started your digitaltransformation journey just
(19:51):
using some digital tools, someanalytics and so on didn't
necessarily make digital natives.
They really gave rise to theexperience economy.
They really provided feedbackloops, data between customers
and the business and many othertypes of data that were not
(20:13):
there before and were notharnessed or understood as core
part of the business.
Digital natives.
They use different KPIs to lookat their business and run their
business than the traditionalone right Now.
Think of it An AI-nativebusiness, in a way, isn't born
yet.
We don't have new PIs.
(20:34):
We don't have a new businessmodel that is really, at its
core, an intelligent business,and an intelligent not only at
the customer level, which istypically where most start their
journey, but they should be atthe enterprise and the ecosystem
level.
We're scratching the surface,but it's important to have the
(20:56):
vision.
We've seen that before thosethat led successful digital
transformation in businesses,and we do have examples in
financial services.
Take JP Morgan, for example.
They had a vision and theystrategically implemented that,
and I think that it's in ourbook and when we talk about
(21:17):
thinking like an AI native, wehave a framework help leaders
start that journey, but it'simportant to understand where
and how and what we're talkingabout, and it's ever more
important in this environmentwhere there's increasing
complexity and uncertainty.
You need to start this journey.
Jim Hertzfeld (21:37):
To get started.
Yeah, I know you have a lot onyour mind.
I love your framing of some ofthe challenges that are all
actually enablers.
So I love that idea.
You mentioned quantum computing.
Is that a threat tocybersecurity but also an
opportunity to scale machinelearning?
But there's a lot to thinkabout.
I think there's a lot ofliteracy, I think is the word
(21:58):
that I'm going to come up with.
Like we're going to takefinancial literacy for the
digital professional to a wholeother level, you know, in
addition to really adopting andunderstanding some of these
emerging technologies.
But if there's sort of onepiece of advice that you would
leave someone with today whatwould you suggest?
Efi Pylarinou (22:20):
Well, let me sell our book, buy our book.
I didn't see that coming.
Yes, buy our book and manyothers, but you know beyond that
, really, I would say that eachof us should work systematically
and strategically onself-educating, and I would say
you can do that in many ways,but today, one of the core ways
(22:43):
to do it is to become part ofsome hub, whatever you want to
call it, and learn from and withothers.
That is the core strategy, andthink of it like your
responsibility.
Your business has two mainparts.
One is business as usual andthe second is what do you want
(23:05):
to call it?
You want to call it businesswhere the puck is heading.
Whatever you want to call it,call it innovation.
You want to call it notbecoming obsolete.
Think of the importance of doingthings to maintain your
physical and your mental healthright.
They're both interconnected andinterlinked and somehow you
have to find a way to take careof both of them right the same
(23:28):
here.
Find a way to systematically dothe two things the business as
usual and where the puck isheaded.
Don't freeze because you'redoing 90% of one and 10% of the
other.
Start from somewhere, like anatomic habit, but do it
systematically.
It's part of your daily workand work as in, not because your
(23:53):
employer said it, it's justpart of work.
You cannot stand still, youcannot fly low, you cannot
ignore this, whether you do itbecause you see that it can be
valuable or fun, or forpractical or for survival
reasons.
For all these combinations, Imean, the best attitude is to
(24:15):
take it and do it as in myopinion and my book, the way I
like to think of it, it's agrowth opportunity and take it
and do it with a fun attitude,but systematically, and that
combination Intentionally andwith purpose.
Jim Hertzfeld (24:32):
Don't fly too high, don't fly too low, but
whatever you do, you have to fly.
Efi Pylarinou (24:37):
You have to fly, you have to fly.
You can't ignore, you can'tstand still, you can't stick to
you know this hasn't happened.
This will take longer.
It's not about trying toguesstimate the timeline.
It's about just going with theflow of things.
It's not a question of what isthe right pace, the wrong pace.
(24:59):
It's like with everything, likewith exercising, like with a
good diet, like with somethingthat you want to change.
Start small, but do itsystematically.
Jim Hertzfeld (25:09):
That's great, Efi .
So much great advice.
Thanks for sharing yourinsights.
You've earned them.
You've earned these lessonsover the years and you've seen a
lot.
Thanks for sharing that with usand I hope to talk to you again
.
Efi Pylarinou (25:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
Joe Wentzel (25:23):
You've been listening to what, if so what?
A digital strategy podcast fromProficient with Jim Hertzfeld.
We want to thank our Perficientcolleagues JD Norman and Rick
Bauer for our music.
Subscribe to the podcast anddon't miss a single episode.
Thanks for listening.
get your data architecture in order, whether
you're a small business, amedium business or a large
business.
You know, getting your dataarchitecture in order was also
necessary for the mobile era,but a lot of companies patched
it with band-aids and all sortsof temporary solutions.
Jim Hertzfeld (00:31):
Welcome to "What If?
So What?
, the podcast where we explorewhat's possible with digital and
discover how to make it real inyour business.
I'm your host, jim Hertzfeld,and we get shit done by asking
digital leaders the rightquestions what, if so what?
And, most importantly now, what.
I am really happy to welcomeEffie Pylarinou, wall Street pro
former academic, fintech expert, speaker, author and podcast
(00:55):
guest.
Welcome to the show, Efi.
Efi Pylarinou (00:57):
Thank you very much.
I'm delighted to be on thisshow and, as I realized to be
through a tweet on X, I pressedGrog and because I was quoted or
tagged in that tweet, grogspoke about me and said things
about me.
You know, Efi Larinu is afintech influencer, she talks
(01:18):
about these topics and so on,and most of it was very good.
I'm quite impressed with thatsort of introduction, if you
want, from Grok.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:28):
I'll have to do the same and see what comes up
for me, if anything.
Well, that's good.
You have a pretty broadbackground.
I love your story.
Could you just tell us a littlebit about kind of how you got
here, kind of where your careertook you on a couple of turns
maybe, and how you got heretoday?
Just give us a little bit ofbackground.
Efi Pylarinou (01:43):
First of all, I'm joining you from the heart of
Europe, Switzerland, out of theEU, up close to the Swiss Alps.
I'm based in Zurich.
I've been here for 10 years andpretty much for the decade.
That really defines what Ithink of as my fintech career,
where I decided to dedicatemyself to all the innovations in
(02:06):
financial services, and I doconfess that 10 years ago it was
easy to follow everything andeverybody globally, and now it's
such a challenge.
I came to that decision becauseI started my career on Wall
Street in New York in the 90s.
I joined Solomon Brothers Forthose that are much younger,
(02:29):
that was one of the top, I wouldsay, boutique investment banks
and Wall Street companies of thetime, and I mentioned this
because the culture was verycutthroat compared to any other
company.
And those were my formativeyears, if you want.
(02:51):
And life brought me to live andwork in several countries
because I married a diplomat andI started reinventing myself
and working remotely from thedifferent posts where we were
moving.
I had the opportunities to moveto Canada to teach at McGill
during a very interesting timethe 2008 global financial crisis
(03:13):
.
I was teaching real estatefinance when everything was
collapsing.
Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, youknow, were changing the whole
capital markets.
Everything was impacted.
So you know, if I look back,I've been in that hardcore,
traditional wholesale if youwant financial services and
(03:38):
banking at the heart of thefinancial hub, if you want New
York.
And now I'm finding myself inSwitzerland, which, on the one
hand, is a top country, numberone for 18 years in innovation
globally and broadly, notnecessarily in financial
services, but we live in a timewhere everything is more
(04:01):
decentralized and everything ismore global, and everything is
more connected.
And that's how I kind ofoperate on a global network.
Jim Hertzfeld (04:11):
That's exciting.
So you'd mentioned that Solomonwas a cutthroat environment and
those were your formative years.
So I'm sure there were somescar tissue that got you to
where you are and sort of formedyour perspective.
So I'm interested in hearingmore about that as we talk
through.
But you know it's interestingyou're in Zurich because I think
in the United States part ofour business culture is
sometimes we believe that thisis the center of the global
(04:33):
economy and you're absolutelycorrect on many levels not just
in global finance, but intechnology and culture it is a
very distributed.
I think we often forget or wedon't realize how much
globalization has impacted theway we work and live.
So it's interesting that yourhusband is a diplomat and has
given you that exposure as well,so that's fascinating.
(04:55):
You know you've seen a lot ofchanges.
It seems like, not to introducetoo much recency bias, but it
seemed like the changes arehappening more and more and
they're more impactful.
Much recency bias, but itseemed like the changes are
happening more and more andthey're more impactful
Technology, cultural, economic,political.
It's now early 2025.
There are some big changeshappening, seems like daily, but
from some of the things I knowyou've written and spoken about,
(05:16):
you know around fintech andBitcoin and AI, and your recent
blog post talked about X moneyand deep seek was just announced
last week.
How do you keep up, what areyou focusing on and what are the
big changes that you're payingthe most attention to these days
.
Efi Pylarinou (05:32):
Well, I must admit that you know financial
services.
Over the past decade, bordersof what we think of financial
services don't exist anymore, orrather, they are reshaped and
extended as we speak.
They used to be within theconfines of physical branches
(05:53):
and physical banks, I mean.
We moved to mobile banking.
We are actually I don't know ifyou realize we are in the stage
of everywhere banking.
You can do banking one-commerce sites, on travel
sites, on educational sites, onall sorts of businesses, and we
can give some examples, but theboundaries are changing, so
(06:17):
they're changing for manyreasons.
The enabler are thesetechnologies and right now we
are in the beginning of a newmajor tech cycle.
We've gone through the cloudcycle and the mobile cycle.
Some talk about it as thedigital tech cycle.
(06:39):
I would say that cloud andmobile were major tech cycles
and now, although AI has beenaround for a very long time and
especially in our end offinancial services, it's been
used for a very long time.
It's not new.
However, the advancements, therecent advancements, really are
shifting everything and areopening up a new kind of
(07:03):
possibility of moving to anintelligent era.
So, in order to make sense ofwhat possible scenarios we're
going to live in, because Ican't predict the future and
nobody can, but we can thinkthrough scenarios that are
possible, given what problems wehave, what opportunities we
(07:24):
have, what economic - becausewe're talking about economically
viable businesses -technologies that are enablers,
and then look at scenarios.
So, I look at the technologiesand then I try to understand
what scenarios are possible.
Right, one scenario in one areathat I'm watching is this
(07:46):
everywhere banking trend.
It's not about whether it's atthe physical branch or on your
mobile.
It's about whether you can beserved for your financial needs
where you're at.
And that might be you want tobuy a house.
Why do you need to go to yourbanking mobile app when it's all
(08:08):
about who's going to help youto make that decision and close
that decision and serve thatdecision?
And maybe you want to do it ona real estate app, right?
Or if you're shopping on aretail site, the same you need
some credit, if you need someinsurance, you need different
(08:30):
payment choices.
You have it there.
So that's one big trend thatI'm watching.
And another big trend is thesenew businesses that are fintechs
in disguise, if you want.
So these are businesses thatare not financials, but most of
their revenues are earnedthrough offering financial
(08:51):
services, and this is a new typeof greed.
These are sort of very tangibletrends that you and whoever
who's not focused in financialservices could understand.
And then there's other trendsthat are really about how
regulation is changing, howgeopolitics are changing that,
(09:14):
whether we will have digitalidentity on a blockchain, for
example, which is very core tomoving to the future of the
internet.
We need that.
The current way the internet,you know, it was not set up to
(09:35):
be doing all these transactionsthat we are doing whether we are
putting in our card details arerepeatedly being authenticated.
All these are issues that needto be solved.
So, they're linked, becauseyour digital identity is really
the most precious asset that youhave, and you would think that
(09:55):
banks would be taking care ofthat.
We're not there, but these arethings that we're watching.
Then I'm watching what's goingon with money what is money?
Traditionally?
We all understand what money is.
And then there's the big topicof AI how it's going to change
and is changing financialservices, how quantum is not
(10:19):
only a risk but also anopportunity in financial
services.
And I'm also watchingcybersecurity issues, which are
a big headache and increasingglobally, and I'll stop there
because there's so many topicsthere.
Some of them are very core atthe infrastructure level, like
(10:40):
what is money?
Who can issue money on whatrails does money move in the US?
In the US, the US is reallybehind in payments and how money
is moved In other parts of theworld.
We have real-time payments Inemerging markets like India and
Brazil.
The governments and the centralbanks have created new
(11:01):
infrastructures, so there's newrails, new ways happening, and
all this is connected totechnology and geopolitics and
the geoeconomics.
Jim Hertzfeld (11:12):
So, that is a lot .
There's a lot on your mind, Efi.
There is a lot on my mind thatstood out and I guess even just
kind of our prior conversationsand following up with some of
your work.
You know you mentioned sort ofeverywhere banking, I think that
one most people can relate to.
(11:33):
I've heard that called maybeembedded finance and I think
different terms for it, becausewe recognize everyone has a
wallet and maybe has some cashin it or a credit card.
So, I think most people canrelate to that.
What I find fascinating is, youknow, it is disruptive for sure,
right, it is global.
We talked about this isextending.
Now, if you know, there aresome country over country
(11:54):
differences.
They can't be ignored.
They're going to impact globalmarkets.
But if you are sort of theeveryday, maybe a digital
professional, someone who grewup in that web era or even in
that cloud era, I was thinkingto myself at one point in the
90s we put an E in front ofeverything.
We called it e-business, right,and that was sort of new.
And then we started to put an Iin front of things because it
(12:16):
was like the iPhone and now theI is intelligent.
But as people who grew up inthat sort of web, digital, even
cloud, era who think they haveit together, you're kind of
opening up a whole newdiscipline.
I think that people need to payattention to Because in legacy,
or again, traditional businessor businesses, they're going to
be challenged.
This is the innovator's dilemmawe talk about all the time.
(12:39):
There are going to be thesefintech startups that are really
challenging major global banks,right and currencies.
They have to pay attention toit.
But for the everyday digitalprofessional, I think you maybe
made the case, but why shouldthey pay attention and start to
learn about these movements inthe financial services and
fintech market?
Efi Pylarinou (12:59):
Because, quite frankly, they are going to
impact the way we earn ourliving, the way we work,
everything, all our life, andtherefore we are right now at an
inflection point whereeverything is interconnected.
We have these technologies thatare advancing, and at a very
(13:22):
fast pace.
We have socioeconomic trendslike the future of work and the
future of mobility and thesetypes of trends, and they're all
connected and creating verydifferent possibilities in
really every aspect of our life.
And let's not forget thatfinancial services are core to
(13:46):
any economic activity and thatis never going to change.
Doesn't matter if we use cryptoor blockchains or whatever.
That will remain core and thatis really the reason that, like
we say now, you know, ai isgeneral purpose technology that
affects everything.
Well, financial services affectevery economic activity and, in
(14:11):
that sense, they're behindeverything, and that is really
the reason that everyone shouldcare.
This is going to change everyindustry, society.
As I said, how we work, how weearn our money, how we educate
our values, how we are thinkingof, what our assets it's just
(14:32):
going to be a major changebefore and maybe they're getting
shorter, yes, and this one withAI feels to accelerate faster,
but nobody knows.
We will see how the adoptiongoes.
(14:54):
One thing that is clear withthis upcoming wave is, I think,
those that are of the camp oflet me see what everybody else
does and then you know, when thedust has settled I will catch
up.
Right, and that worked beforefor some, not for everybody,
(15:15):
right For some.
I think this time it will notwork, because not only we're
talking about fast pace, theywon't be able to catch up when
everything is said and done andwe can talk about why is that
and what can be done.
But I like to always bring upthis Greek myth, icarus myth.
(15:37):
I don't know if you know aboutit.
Jim Hertzfeld (15:40):
I am familiar yeah.
Efi Pylarinou (15:42):
So you know, everybody that knows Icarus myth
thinks that, okay, youshouldn't fly too high, because
you know he flew and his waxwings - too close to the sun,
right, because he went too highclose to the sun, right.
But what is not discussed somuch is that that myth also was
talking about danger of alsoflying too low, and that is not
(16:06):
talked about so much.
So, there's a danger of flyingtoo high, close to the sun, but
also too low, close to the sea,and you'll never really take off
and go anywhere.
You're going to drown.
You know the Greeks, they'rewise, right, you have to know
the dark but hey, a leastthey're wise, right?
No, the dark, but hey, so let'sthink of that.
(16:28):
It was true during the cloudand mobile era, but now it's
really pressing and very true.
And, yeah, I would say thatthere's two main things in terms
of not flying low.
Not flying low If you were toput an alert on your board to
yourself and say, you know,danger here, I really need, we
(16:58):
really need to move, and there'stwo things that need to be done
absolutely now, yesterday.
One is a change of mindset andthe second is get your data
architecture in order.
Whether you're a small business,a medium business or a large
business, you know, getting yourdata architecture in order was
also necessary for the mobileera, but a lot of companies
(17:23):
patched it with band-aids andall sorts of temporary solutions
.
I don't think there's any moretime for temporary and band-aids
, because the AI era is reallylike you don't have something to
feed that you know the engineof your car, whatever the
analogy is, and you need to dothat.
(17:46):
Whether it's your proprietarydata or not, it doesn't matter.
You have to do dataarchitecture.
Jim Hertzfeld (17:53):
Well, that's good advice.
I mean, I think, yeah, I wasgoing to ask you sort of what's
preventing people.
I mean that's great advice.
I think we've been talkingabout that for a while, whether
you're just taking a data firstphilosophy and you just have to
have better handle on youroperation, right, you just have
to have better businessintelligence or analytics.
But I think the stakes are highwith AI.
The stakes are higher becausewe need to start leveraging that
(18:15):
data, exposing and utilizingand monetizing that data with AI
in a number of ways andenriching that with others.
I think that's great advice.
But I want to touch on somethingin your book, fast Future Blur.
That's a lot.
There's a lot on your mindsthat you talk about, but you
talk about thinking like an AInative.
That, I think, is really whatyou're getting at.
You know again this evolutionof maybe you were digital native
(18:37):
or through cloud mobile,thinking and acting like an AI
native.
And there are businesses andbusiness models that are going
to be built on AI, but as anestablished organization, being
grounded in the financialsystems that you're involved in,
in your data, having the rightmindset those all sound great.
But what's preventingindividuals or what's preventing
companies from adopting that?
(18:58):
They're just hanging on to whatthey know well, is it?
They don't have the competencyor the vision.
I mean.
What do you see as kind ofholding companies back?
Efi Pylarinou (19:06):
Well, there's many factors, but I would say
the first is legacy debt, andthat's both technical debt and
maybe, you know, the fintechs.
The grownups don't have that,right.
There's the mindset - not yet,not yet, right?
But there's the mindset thateven the grownup FinTechs, it's
not clear that they have themindset to really understand how
(19:29):
to adopt AI towards becoming anAI native.
And why do I make thisdistinction?
Because just using AI as a toolhere and there is not going to
change culture.
Much like two decades ago, ifyou were a traditional business
and you started your digitaltransformation journey just
(19:51):
using some digital tools, someanalytics and so on didn't
necessarily make digital natives.
They really gave rise to theexperience economy.
They really provided feedbackloops, data between customers
and the business and many othertypes of data that were not
(20:13):
there before and were notharnessed or understood as core
part of the business.
Digital natives.
They use different KPIs to lookat their business and run their
business than the traditionalone right Now.
Think of it An AI-nativebusiness, in a way, isn't born
yet.
We don't have new PIs.
(20:34):
We don't have a new businessmodel that is really, at its
core, an intelligent business,and an intelligent not only at
the customer level, which istypically where most start their
journey, but they should be atthe enterprise and the ecosystem
level.
We're scratching the surface,but it's important to have the
(20:56):
vision.
We've seen that before thosethat led successful digital
transformation in businesses,and we do have examples in
financial services.
Take JP Morgan, for example.
They had a vision and theystrategically implemented that,
and I think that it's in ourbook and when we talk about
(21:17):
thinking like an AI native, wehave a framework help leaders
start that journey, but it'simportant to understand where
and how and what we're talkingabout, and it's ever more
important in this environmentwhere there's increasing
complexity and uncertainty.
You need to start this journey.
Jim Hertzfeld (21:37):
To get started.
Yeah, I know you have a lot onyour mind.
I love your framing of some ofthe challenges that are all
actually enablers.
So I love that idea.
You mentioned quantum computing.
Is that a threat tocybersecurity but also an
opportunity to scale machinelearning?
But there's a lot to thinkabout.
I think there's a lot ofliteracy, I think is the word
(21:58):
that I'm going to come up with.
Like we're going to takefinancial literacy for the
digital professional to a wholeother level, you know, in
addition to really adopting andunderstanding some of these
emerging technologies.
But if there's sort of onepiece of advice that you would
leave someone with today whatwould you suggest?
Efi Pylarinou (22:20):
Well, let me sell our book, buy our book.
I didn't see that coming.
Yes, buy our book and manyothers, but you know beyond that
, really, I would say that eachof us should work systematically
and strategically onself-educating, and I would say
you can do that in many ways,but today, one of the core ways
(22:43):
to do it is to become part ofsome hub, whatever you want to
call it, and learn from and withothers.
That is the core strategy, andthink of it like your
responsibility.
Your business has two mainparts.
One is business as usual andthe second is what do you want
(23:05):
to call it?
You want to call it businesswhere the puck is heading.
Whatever you want to call it,call it innovation.
You want to call it notbecoming obsolete.
Think of the importance of doingthings to maintain your
physical and your mental healthright.
They're both interconnected andinterlinked and somehow you
have to find a way to take careof both of them right the same
(23:28):
here.
Find a way to systematically dothe two things the business as
usual and where the puck isheaded.
Don't freeze because you'redoing 90% of one and 10% of the
other.
Start from somewhere, like anatomic habit, but do it
systematically.
It's part of your daily workand work as in, not because your
(23:53):
employer said it, it's justpart of work.
You cannot stand still, youcannot fly low, you cannot
ignore this, whether you do itbecause you see that it can be
valuable or fun, or forpractical or for survival
reasons.
For all these combinations, Imean, the best attitude is to
(24:15):
take it and do it as in myopinion and my book, the way I
like to think of it, it's agrowth opportunity and take it
and do it with a fun attitude,but systematically, and that
combination Intentionally andwith purpose.
Jim Hertzfeld (24:32):
Don't fly too high, don't fly too low, but
whatever you do, you have to fly.
Efi Pylarinou (24:37):
You have to fly, you have to fly.
You can't ignore, you can'tstand still, you can't stick to
you know this hasn't happened.
This will take longer.
It's not about trying toguesstimate the timeline.
It's about just going with theflow of things.
It's not a question of what isthe right pace, the wrong pace.
(24:59):
It's like with everything, likewith exercising, like with a
good diet, like with somethingthat you want to change.
Start small, but do itsystematically.
Jim Hertzfeld (25:09):
That's great, Efi .
So much great advice.
Thanks for sharing yourinsights.
You've earned them.
You've earned these lessonsover the years and you've seen a
lot.
Thanks for sharing that with usand I hope to talk to you again
.
Efi Pylarinou (25:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
Joe Wentzel (25:23):
You've been listening to what, if so what?
A digital strategy podcast fromProficient with Jim Hertzfeld.
We want to thank our Perficientcolleagues JD Norman and Rick
Bauer for our music.
Subscribe to the podcast anddon't miss a single episode.
Thanks for listening.
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