In this episode of "What If? So What?" host Jim Hertzfeld sits down with James Hannis, the visionary chief architect at Cardinal Health. With a legacy in retail, James brings a unique perspective to the transformation of patient care through digital innovation. Dive into a discussion about the fusion of healthcare and retail strategies, the personalization of patient care, and the speed of service delivery that today's healthcare consumers expect.
Episode Highlights:
- James describes his background in retail and how it shapes his approach at Cardinal Health
- The complexity of catering to diverse healthcare personas and ensuring tailored experiences
- The challenge of applying retail marketing strategies within the privacy-sensitive healthcare industry
- Insights on leveraging speed and agility to improve customer engagement in a B2B healthcare setting
- The evolution of Cardinal Health's digital platforms to meet the ever-changing landscape of healthcare distribution and patient interaction
Timestamps:
0:58 – Introducing James Hannis and Cardinal Health
2:28 – The shift toward personalized healthcare experiences
4:56 – Adapting retail speed to healthcare delivery
6:39 – Overcoming privacy and tech hurdles in health personalization
8:38 – James's advice for embracing digital speed in traditional businesses
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James Hannis (00:05):
You know, from a marketing, it's not a lead
anymore, it's a hook.
So if you can get them hooked,it says, okay, that's the
service that's going to enableme to make an informed decision.
Start simple, versus trying tolook at the big, full gamut and
then, as the uniqueness ofwhatever the customer
experiences for that industry,then start adding on the Legos
which you know I've talked aboutto get that NSP to market.
Jim Hertzfeld (00:27):
Welcome to what If so what, the podcast where we
explore what's possible withdigital and discover how to make
it real in your business.
I'm your host, jim Hertzfeld,and we get shit done by asking
digital leaders the rightquestions what, if so what?
And, most importantly now, what?
So I'm really excited to behere today.
We're live, we're in person forthe first time, and with James
(00:48):
Hannitz of Cardinal Health.
Thank you so much for joiningus here.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do at
Cardinal Health, especially forthe folks who may not know what
Cardinal Health is.
James Hannis (00:58):
I am the chief architect for Cardinal Health,
covering primarily the customerengagement and corporate
solutions.
Cardinal is very much in thefull spectrum of healthcare, and
so there's a lot more to itthan just what one or two people
can do.
So I've got four or five otherpeers that work in architecture
as well for their chief areas.
(01:18):
In short, cardinal is apharmaceutical distribution,
it's medical productdistribution and there's a bunch
of other services that areoffered, depending on their part
of health.
I've been with Cardinal, forI'll be coming up to my ninth
year.
The focus prior to that was inretail, and that was why I was
brought into Cardinal to sort ofbring that retail and that
(01:39):
customer engagement thinkingversus the inside out being a
distribution company.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:44):
Well, that's the part that really is interesting
to me about.
You know your role here atCardinal, but you know you used
to do a lot of years in retail,so how did that prepare you for
what you're doing today atCardinal?
James Hannis (01:56):
I think at Cardinal, as health is sort of
changing from more hospital moreat the doctor.
It's becoming more to theperson, to the patient, to the
caregiver, and so theexperiences that you're looking
at in terms of your buying power, your knowledge how am I
getting informed?
What can I do for self-service?
That's becoming a lot whatCardinal wants to be, as they
(02:18):
try to get to the full spectrumof what their customers would be
looking for, and so, instead ofbeing distribution, how can we
empower all of the differentpersonas of healthcare?
Jim Hertzfeld (02:28):
I think we were talking earlier today and you
said something like I think thenumber was something like 600
permutations of business, ofbuyer type of channel.
I mean it gets a littlecomplicated.
James Hannis (02:38):
It's definitely not dull, and what's nice is
each one of those has adifferent experience, so it's
not cookie cutter either waythrough any one of those
personas.
Jim Hertzfeld (02:46):
The thing I've always thought was funny about
healthcare we hear aboutpersonalization all the time.
I mean, it doesn't get morepersonal than healthcare.
So to your point about you'rereaching the patient, the
caregiver, the provider, thepharmacist right A lot of folks
involved in our wellbeing, yeah,yeah.
So what's really fascinating tome in this story is Cardinal,
this acknowledgement that wehave to be customer focused.
(03:07):
We work with a lot of, I wouldsay, traditional companies and
you guys have been around for awhile, but the bulk's needed, so
that's very traditional, Ithink.
A lot of traditional companiesbrick and mortar manufacturing
(03:30):
companies that are making andselling and moving things.
I'm just gonna go off on atangent here.
Lloyd Dobler from Say Anything,one of my favorite movies, said
I don't wanna buy anythingprocessed or sold, sell anything
processed or bought, or buyanything processed or sold
Anyway, we can cut that outlater but a lot of traditional
companies out there who havehired retail experts like
yourselves.
You unlock this mysterycapability.
(03:51):
What do you think thosecustomers are really or those
organizations are really lookingfor from this retail
perspective?
Like when you really break itdown, what do they think they're
looking for?
James Hannis (04:00):
Well, I think the first thing would be really
understanding the trends, whatthe customer's looking for.
Well, I think the first thingwould be really understanding
the trends, what the customer'slooking for.
In a retail, you're constantlylooking at on a seasonal basis
Every six months or not evenwithin every six months, it's
seasonal what am I doing forback to school, what am I doing
for holiday?
What am I doing for springbreak or even holidays in terms
(04:22):
of Easter dresses, since we justhad this past weekend?
The speed is what people arelooking for.
The empowerment then to thecustomer to get that info,
because if you miss the season,as in retail, it really has a
huge impact.
So how can you apply that?
And then sort of the buyinghabits.
Most people are used to doingChristmas shopping on major
(04:42):
retailers.
They want that exact sameexperience with, whether CPG or
even with health.
An acute buyer has the samehabits, the same expectations,
the same empowerment that theywould expect if they were doing
their own holiday shopping.
Jim Hertzfeld (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, at the individual basis.
James Hannis (04:58):
At the individual basis.
Yes, yeah.
Jim Hertzfeld (05:00):
Essentially, they have their preferences.
They have preferences, theyhave their own pressures.
The clock is ticking, like yousaid.
That's interesting.
You know Easter break, springbreak.
I don't know Cinco de Mayo.
I mean spring break.
I don't know Cinco de Mayo.
I mean, you know, back toschool and if you're not
available for these buyers, thenthey'll find someone who is and
they may not come back.
James Hannis (05:26):
And that's the big thing too is even, as I think
you see, the disruption inretail there's.
So many digital fronts havegone down, but the purpose of
the store is less criticalversus the people being able to
empower it on the website beforethey actually get to the store,
if there is one within theirvicinity.
Jim Hertzfeld (05:39):
I think Walmart once called stores like forward
deployed fulfillment centers.
Yeah, Right, which was?
I don't know if you've heardthat term.
I may have.
I may have gotten that wrong,but I thought that, yeah,
Rethinking what is the purposeof a store?
What's the purpose of the pointof sale system?
It's not.
Is it to take your cash?
Is it to run the inventory inthe store?
Right, I mean, these aredifferent ways of looking at
(06:00):
things that you guys and I thinkyou're bringing that in to
Cardinal.
James Hannis (06:03):
Yeah, the many DCs with the Walmart stuff, but at
the same time, we don't live inthe 17 distribution centers.
It's getting into the house.
They expect it the same day,and what Cardinal offers in
terms of fulfilling our acutecustomers or the hospitals and
you know, our pharmacies is theexact same expectations of what
they're looking for for theirhome.
Jim Hertzfeld (06:23):
That's great.
You guys have fully embracedand I've seen that, which is
really cool.
What are some of thosechallenges that you're facing as
a you know, traditionalbusiness and highly regulated,
very B2B focused.
But what are you, what are someof the hurdles you think you
guys are getting over to makethat happen?
James Hannis (06:39):
Well, I think some of the habits from a customer
experience would fall into whatI can track.
And so to be able to say, Iunderstand what you're looking
for, that's a no-no.
Whether you've got a healthissue, I can't track that.
I would love to be able topromote and say, hey, you're
looking for that's a no-no.
Whether you've got a healthissue, I can't track that.
I would love to be able topromote and say, hey, you're an
Ohio State fan, I'm going tosend you some red sweaters.
Or you're a Michigan guy, I'mgoing to send you and get you
(07:01):
some blue sweaters.
With a health condition, youcan't start looking into that.
And then, when you startlooking at the tech stack in
terms of the number of peoplethat actually look at that
whether we're looking atservices of your doctor
validation, your insurancevalidation how much do you store
the records?
Because it's all health, soyou've got to store it.
But you can't store and look atit, versus in a retail, you're
(07:25):
going hey, it's seasonal, how dowe do from Easter, from this
year to Easter to last year?
Or did Easter dresses look good, or do we need to change the
color?
We still have some of thoseattributes as well, but the
ability to not track thespecifics of the person and so
we say, okay, well, that'spatient, we'll look at it at a
hospital.
If you were to look at who's inthe hospital that could be
(07:46):
buying, it could be thepharmacist, it could be a
surgeon, it could be just aphysician itself, it could be
just the medical products personthat needs to refill surgical
gowns, latex, gloves, stuff likethat.
There are so many people.
So when you look at your localhospital, who's the person on
the other side of the screen?
Can you actually get to thepersonalized experience that
(08:06):
they're looking for when you'renot able to track within the
four walls of the hospital?
Yeah, or influence them.
Jim Hertzfeld (08:12):
You're not going to haunt their Instagram for the
next three days because theyabandoned the cart right Exactly
.
Yeah, well, that's interesting,that's great.
I love, I love that perspectiveand I think you guys are doing
an amazing job.
What can the listeners, whatcan people listening to this
podcast?
You know they're.
They have no retail experience.
They haven't been down thatroad.
You know they.
(08:33):
They don't have the perspective.
What's advice you would give tosomebody who's thinking about
the same kinds of challenges?
James Hannis (08:38):
I would look at the speed.
So how can you actually get tospeed?
That's what the customersexpect.
And so if you look at, how canI deploy something that gets in
front of the customer, whoeverthe person on the other side of
the screen is, people still lookfor product, whether it's a
tangible or a service.
What's the info?
What's available?
How can I search for it?
Those are simple things.
(08:58):
But if you could get that outthere, you get connection from a
marketing.
It's not a lead anymore, it's ahook.
So if you can get them hooked,it says, okay, that's the
service.
That's going to enable me tomake an informed decision.
Start simple, versus trying tolook at the big, the full gamut,
and then, as the uniqueness ofwhatever the customer experience
is for that industry, thenstart adding on the Legos which
(09:22):
I've talked about, to get thatin a speed to market, but not
wait for everything.
But then it also enables you tobe able to swap the Legos out
as well, so it's not a bigoverhaul three, four, five years
down the line as well, right,paint it into a corner, Exactly.
Jim Hertzfeld (09:36):
No, that's great.
Speed is everything.
Time kills all deals.
James Hannis (09:40):
Yeah Well you just don't want them to lose it.
They will find another providerfor whatever services that
they're looking for, so you'vegot to be able to be quick.
Jim Hertzfeld (09:47):
That's great.
Well, speaking of quick, Ithink we've reached our time
here.
I really appreciate doing this.
Glad we could do it live.
Oh yeah, it's a beautifullocation, great table, beautiful
Dublin, ohio.
I'll come back for more.
James Hannis (09:58):
Thanks, james, I appreciate you stopping by and
saying hi, take it easy.
You've been listening to what?
If so, what?
A digital strategy podcast fromProficient with Jim Hertzfeld.
We want to thank our Proicientcolleagues jd norman and rick
bauer for our music.
Subscribe to the podcast anddon't miss a single episode.
You can find this season, alongwith show notes, at
(10:20):
proficientcom.
Thanks for listening.
You know, from a marketing, it's not a lead
anymore, it's a hook.
So if you can get them hooked,it says, okay, that's the
service that's going to enableme to make an informed decision.
Start simple, versus trying tolook at the big, full gamut and
then, as the uniqueness ofwhatever the customer
experiences for that industry,then start adding on the Legos
which you know I've talked aboutto get that NSP to market.
Jim Hertzfeld (00:27):
Welcome to what If so what, the podcast where we
explore what's possible withdigital and discover how to make
it real in your business.
I'm your host, jim Hertzfeld,and we get shit done by asking
digital leaders the rightquestions what, if so what?
And, most importantly now, what?
So I'm really excited to behere today.
We're live, we're in person forthe first time, and with James
(00:48):
Hannitz of Cardinal Health.
Thank you so much for joiningus here.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and what you do at
Cardinal Health, especially forthe folks who may not know what
Cardinal Health is.
James Hannis (00:58):
I am the chief architect for Cardinal Health,
covering primarily the customerengagement and corporate
solutions.
Cardinal is very much in thefull spectrum of healthcare, and
so there's a lot more to itthan just what one or two people
can do.
So I've got four or five otherpeers that work in architecture
as well for their chief areas.
(01:18):
In short, cardinal is apharmaceutical distribution,
it's medical productdistribution and there's a bunch
of other services that areoffered, depending on their part
of health.
I've been with Cardinal, forI'll be coming up to my ninth
year.
The focus prior to that was inretail, and that was why I was
brought into Cardinal to sort ofbring that retail and that
(01:39):
customer engagement thinkingversus the inside out being a
distribution company.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:44):
Well, that's the part that really is interesting
to me about.
You know your role here atCardinal, but you know you used
to do a lot of years in retail,so how did that prepare you for
what you're doing today atCardinal?
James Hannis (01:56):
I think at Cardinal, as health is sort of
changing from more hospital moreat the doctor.
It's becoming more to theperson, to the patient, to the
caregiver, and so theexperiences that you're looking
at in terms of your buying power, your knowledge how am I
getting informed?
What can I do for self-service?
That's becoming a lot whatCardinal wants to be, as they
(02:18):
try to get to the full spectrumof what their customers would be
looking for, and so, instead ofbeing distribution, how can we
empower all of the differentpersonas of healthcare?
Jim Hertzfeld (02:28):
I think we were talking earlier today and you
said something like I think thenumber was something like 600
permutations of business, ofbuyer type of channel.
I mean it gets a littlecomplicated.
James Hannis (02:38):
It's definitely not dull, and what's nice is
each one of those has adifferent experience, so it's
not cookie cutter either waythrough any one of those
personas.
Jim Hertzfeld (02:46):
The thing I've always thought was funny about
healthcare we hear aboutpersonalization all the time.
I mean, it doesn't get morepersonal than healthcare.
So to your point about you'rereaching the patient, the
caregiver, the provider, thepharmacist right A lot of folks
involved in our wellbeing, yeah,yeah.
So what's really fascinating tome in this story is Cardinal,
this acknowledgement that wehave to be customer focused.
(03:07):
We work with a lot of, I wouldsay, traditional companies and
you guys have been around for awhile, but the bulk's needed, so
that's very traditional, Ithink.
A lot of traditional companiesbrick and mortar manufacturing
(03:30):
companies that are making andselling and moving things.
I'm just gonna go off on atangent here.
Lloyd Dobler from Say Anything,one of my favorite movies, said
I don't wanna buy anythingprocessed or sold, sell anything
processed or bought, or buyanything processed or sold
Anyway, we can cut that outlater but a lot of traditional
companies out there who havehired retail experts like
yourselves.
You unlock this mysterycapability.
(03:51):
What do you think thosecustomers are really or those
organizations are really lookingfor from this retail
perspective?
Like when you really break itdown, what do they think they're
looking for?
James Hannis (04:00):
Well, I think the first thing would be really
understanding the trends, whatthe customer's looking for.
Well, I think the first thingwould be really understanding
the trends, what the customer'slooking for.
In a retail, you're constantlylooking at on a seasonal basis
Every six months or not evenwithin every six months, it's
seasonal what am I doing forback to school, what am I doing
for holiday?
What am I doing for springbreak or even holidays in terms
(04:22):
of Easter dresses, since we justhad this past weekend?
The speed is what people arelooking for.
The empowerment then to thecustomer to get that info,
because if you miss the season,as in retail, it really has a
huge impact.
So how can you apply that?
And then sort of the buyinghabits.
Most people are used to doingChristmas shopping on major
(04:42):
retailers.
They want that exact sameexperience with, whether CPG or
even with health.
An acute buyer has the samehabits, the same expectations,
the same empowerment that theywould expect if they were doing
their own holiday shopping.
Jim Hertzfeld (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, at the individual basis.
James Hannis (04:58):
At the individual basis.
Yes, yeah.
Jim Hertzfeld (05:00):
Essentially, they have their preferences.
They have preferences, theyhave their own pressures.
The clock is ticking, like yousaid.
That's interesting.
You know Easter break, springbreak.
I don't know Cinco de Mayo.
I mean spring break.
I don't know Cinco de Mayo.
I mean, you know, back toschool and if you're not
available for these buyers, thenthey'll find someone who is and
they may not come back.
James Hannis (05:26):
And that's the big thing too is even, as I think
you see, the disruption inretail there's.
So many digital fronts havegone down, but the purpose of
the store is less criticalversus the people being able to
empower it on the website beforethey actually get to the store,
if there is one within theirvicinity.
Jim Hertzfeld (05:39):
I think Walmart once called stores like forward
deployed fulfillment centers.
Yeah, Right, which was?
I don't know if you've heardthat term.
I may have.
I may have gotten that wrong,but I thought that, yeah,
Rethinking what is the purposeof a store?
What's the purpose of the pointof sale system?
It's not.
Is it to take your cash?
Is it to run the inventory inthe store?
Right, I mean, these aredifferent ways of looking at
(06:00):
things that you guys and I thinkyou're bringing that in to
Cardinal.
James Hannis (06:03):
Yeah, the many DCs with the Walmart stuff, but at
the same time, we don't live inthe 17 distribution centers.
It's getting into the house.
They expect it the same day,and what Cardinal offers in
terms of fulfilling our acutecustomers or the hospitals and
you know, our pharmacies is theexact same expectations of what
they're looking for for theirhome.
Jim Hertzfeld (06:23):
That's great.
You guys have fully embracedand I've seen that, which is
really cool.
What are some of thosechallenges that you're facing as
a you know, traditionalbusiness and highly regulated,
very B2B focused.
But what are you, what are someof the hurdles you think you
guys are getting over to makethat happen?
James Hannis (06:39):
Well, I think some of the habits from a customer
experience would fall into whatI can track.
And so to be able to say, Iunderstand what you're looking
for, that's a no-no.
Whether you've got a healthissue, I can't track that.
I would love to be able topromote and say, hey, you're
looking for that's a no-no.
Whether you've got a healthissue, I can't track that.
I would love to be able topromote and say, hey, you're an
Ohio State fan, I'm going tosend you some red sweaters.
Or you're a Michigan guy, I'mgoing to send you and get you
(07:01):
some blue sweaters.
With a health condition, youcan't start looking into that.
And then, when you startlooking at the tech stack in
terms of the number of peoplethat actually look at that
whether we're looking atservices of your doctor
validation, your insurancevalidation how much do you store
the records?
Because it's all health, soyou've got to store it.
But you can't store and look atit, versus in a retail, you're
(07:25):
going hey, it's seasonal, how dowe do from Easter, from this
year to Easter to last year?
Or did Easter dresses look good, or do we need to change the
color?
We still have some of thoseattributes as well, but the
ability to not track thespecifics of the person and so
we say, okay, well, that'spatient, we'll look at it at a
hospital.
If you were to look at who's inthe hospital that could be
(07:46):
buying, it could be thepharmacist, it could be a
surgeon, it could be just aphysician itself, it could be
just the medical products personthat needs to refill surgical
gowns, latex, gloves, stuff likethat.
There are so many people.
So when you look at your localhospital, who's the person on
the other side of the screen?
Can you actually get to thepersonalized experience that
(08:06):
they're looking for when you'renot able to track within the
four walls of the hospital?
Yeah, or influence them.
Jim Hertzfeld (08:12):
You're not going to haunt their Instagram for the
next three days because theyabandoned the cart right Exactly
.
Yeah, well, that's interesting,that's great.
I love, I love that perspectiveand I think you guys are doing
an amazing job.
What can the listeners, whatcan people listening to this
podcast?
You know they're.
They have no retail experience.
They haven't been down thatroad.
You know they.
(08:33):
They don't have the perspective.
What's advice you would give tosomebody who's thinking about
the same kinds of challenges?
James Hannis (08:38):
I would look at the speed.
So how can you actually get tospeed?
That's what the customersexpect.
And so if you look at, how canI deploy something that gets in
front of the customer, whoeverthe person on the other side of
the screen is, people still lookfor product, whether it's a
tangible or a service.
What's the info?
What's available?
How can I search for it?
Those are simple things.
(08:58):
But if you could get that outthere, you get connection from a
marketing.
It's not a lead anymore, it's ahook.
So if you can get them hooked,it says, okay, that's the
service.
That's going to enable me tomake an informed decision.
Start simple, versus trying tolook at the big, the full gamut,
and then, as the uniqueness ofwhatever the customer experience
is for that industry, thenstart adding on the Legos which
(09:22):
I've talked about, to get thatin a speed to market, but not
wait for everything.
But then it also enables you tobe able to swap the Legos out
as well, so it's not a bigoverhaul three, four, five years
down the line as well, right,paint it into a corner, Exactly.
Jim Hertzfeld (09:36):
No, that's great.
Speed is everything.
Time kills all deals.
James Hannis (09:40):
Yeah Well you just don't want them to lose it.
They will find another providerfor whatever services that
they're looking for, so you'vegot to be able to be quick.
Jim Hertzfeld (09:47):
That's great.
Well, speaking of quick, Ithink we've reached our time
here.
I really appreciate doing this.
Glad we could do it live.
Oh yeah, it's a beautifullocation, great table, beautiful
Dublin, ohio.
I'll come back for more.
James Hannis (09:58):
Thanks, james, I appreciate you stopping by and
saying hi, take it easy.
You've been listening to what?
If so, what?
A digital strategy podcast fromProficient with Jim Hertzfeld.
We want to thank our Proicientcolleagues jd norman and rick
bauer for our music.
Subscribe to the podcast anddon't miss a single episode.
You can find this season, alongwith show notes, at
(10:20):
proficientcom.
Thanks for listening.
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