June 5, 2024 • 17 mins
In this episode, Jim welcomes Claus Torp Jensen, a seasoned expert in digital transformation and innovation, to discuss the fascinating realms of ambient computing and digital twins. Claus shares his insights on how these technologies are transforming industries, the importance of a proper mindset for innovation, and the critical role of storytelling in driving change. Jim and Claus also delve into the confluence of factors that have brought these technologies to the forefront and the challenges companies face in adopting them.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Claus Torp Jensen (00:05):
You can instrument your car, you can
instrument your house.
To a degree, you can instrumentyour body at least a little bit
, because you can have wearablesthat tell you things about your
environment.
What if you could harness allthat power to have someone that
always watched out for you,looked for bad things and
celebrated good things?
So it wasn't in the way, it wasambient, it was just part of
(00:26):
the environment, and it would bethere as your personal life
assistant.
Jim Hertzfeld (00:32):
Welcome to what If so what, the podcast where we
explore what's possible withdigital and discover how to make
it real in your business.
I'm your host, jim Hertzfeld,and we get shit done by asking
digital leaders the rightquestions what, if so, what and,
most importantly now, what?
Our guest today is Klaus TorpJensen, and he's done it all
Chief Architect, Chief TechnicalOfficer, Chief Digital Officer
(00:55):
and Chief Innovation OfficerWith IBM, CVS, Memorial, Sloan
Kettering Cancer Center, Teladocand others.
Also a published author on thetopics of whole person care,
digital transformation, hybridcloud, APIs and I still call it
SOA.
Some call it SOA, others callit service-oriented architecture
.
Not only that, he's a GuinnessBook of World Records holder.
(01:16):
In 1987, in Denmark, he helpedset the record for the world's
largest solitaire game with 200decks of cards.
Klaus, welcome to the podcast.
Did I leave anything out?
Claus Torp Jensen (01:26):
Thank you very much.
That was more than enough.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:29):
I'm glad to be here.
Do you still hold the record?
I'm curious.
I'm dying to know.
Claus Torp Jensen (01:33):
I have no idea.
The way this thing works isthey don't always publish the
same records every year, sopossibly somebody broke the
record, who knows, but it wasfun at the time.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:41):
It sounds like fun.
You've seen and done so manydifferent things and when you
and I are preparing for thisepisode, you mentioned a couple
of related things that we'rehearing a lot about from our
clients ambient computing anddigital twin.
I would say they've not quitemade the everyday lexicon.
I'll point out they both soundlike electronica duos great
(02:04):
names if they aren't taken.
Could you give us an overviewof these two concepts ambient
computing and digital twin, kindof, in your words, your
perspective?
Claus Torp Jensen (02:11):
So I think what's important about them is
their real-world capabilities.
We talk a lot about technologyand technologies all around us
and all the bosses around AI,but AI doesn't do anything in
and of itself.
What can you do with it?
Ai, but AI doesn't do anythingin and of itself.
What can you do with it If yougo back in time 10 years?
I was at the point in time whenI was moving from IBM to Aetna
(02:31):
at the time and somebody at aconference asked me you know,
look forward in time five years.
It is like ridiculous, but ifyou're a technologist you can't
look forward in time for fiveyears.
But they wanted to know what doyou think is going to happen?
And you have to say something.
So what I said was I think fiveyears from now, we're going to
be beginning to see sciencefiction become real, which is an
(02:52):
interesting statement, because,if you think about what is
science fiction, it's not aboutspaceships, it's not about
flying cars, but fundamentally,the evolution of technology has
moved us to a space where we'rebeginning to fuse technology,
people, sensors, analytics andhow we live our lives.
I mean, that is, in many ways,the essence of what a science
fiction-like society looks like,and the root of both digital
(03:13):
twins and sort of this wholenotion of invisible but
benevolent computing solutions,the ambient solutions lives in
that, if you think about it,we've got more sensors than ever
.
We can sense pretty much mostthings we want.
You can instrument your car,you can instrument your house To
a degree, you can instrumentyour body at least a little bit,
(03:35):
because you can have wearablesthat tell you things about your
environment.
What if you could harness allthat power to have someone that
always watched out for you,looked for bad things and
celebrated good things?
So it wasn't in the way it wasambient, it was just part of the
environment and it would bethere as your personal life
assistant at knee.
(03:56):
I think that's meaningful.
As you said, you know, the lastbook I published talked about
this whole notion of ambientcomputing in healthcare.
But it's not limited tohealthcare.
I mean, you see the same thingin transportation.
You see it in the electricalgrid, if you want to monitor the
electrical grid.
That's meaningful.
So there are lots of industriesthat are beginning to see the
notion of this mix of analytics,sensors, insight, invisibly
(04:20):
present but actively takingaction when necessary, be a
fundamental part of society.
So in my mind, that's takingaction when necessary be a
fundamental part of society.
So in my mind, that's a realworld capability, ambient
solutions, and it goes hand inhand, as you mentioned, with the
notion of a digital twin.
Because what's a digital twin?
It's a data representation ofsomething, an item, a system,
and the examples could be theelectrical grid, it could be a
(04:42):
building, ultimately, maybeaspects of a human where we have
enough data about it that wecan start predicting things,
because it's not reasoning aboutwhat might happen if so-and-so
was to occur, because you don'talways want to experiment in
real life.
So, if you take the notion ofambient solutions that give us
this constant awareness, theyalso collect a bunch of data
(05:05):
which you can then use to builddigital twin representations or
whatever you were monitoring,and that then helps you reason
about good and bad things thatmight happen.
So two real world capabilitiesthat are closely connected.
Jim Hertzfeld (05:17):
I'm glad you pointed out the benevolence
factor in that in yourdefinition.
So, speaking of science fiction, a lot of science fiction is
based on the opposite of thatwhich makes it makes great
entertainment.
But what I'm always curiousabout, when a particular
technology or converges orbegins to take off or enter our
consciousness, is what changedto do that In this case?
(05:39):
Was it the prevalence and theeconomics of sensors?
Was it the other end of thelife cycle where we were better
able to conduct the analysis andthe compute on the data sets?
What do you think has sort ofmade this change?
Claus Torp Jensen (05:54):
It's a great question.
I don't know whether it was onething.
I mean.
Sometimes you just live at atime where you have this
confluence of factors and if yougo look back in history the
history of society, combinedwith the role of technology in
society, there's sort of beenmoments in time where that
happened.
Think about the portablecomputing device, whether that's
(06:16):
a laptop or a phone, as we callthem now.
But the whole notion of aportable computing device was a
combination of hardware,software in a society that was
changing.
Yeah, you can go back in time.
You can talk about the internet.
Same thing you can talk about Idon't know telephony.
You could even go far enoughback and talk about electricity,
(06:37):
and you see the same notionthat society is changing, has
different needs.
There are different technologycomponents that come together
and all of a sudden you havethis transformative power that
gets unleashed.
And we live in one of thosetimes because change is
happening more rapid than everbefore and it's going to happen,
whether we grasp theopportunity or not.
(06:59):
I do think that the forcedacceleration of societal change
that came from Two years ofpandemic conditions have
probably contributed to whythere is this moment in time,
and it's not a decade.
It's a year or two where all ofa sudden everything is coming
together.
We're thinking about itdifferently because we were
(07:19):
forced to disrupt paradigms thathad served us well for a long
period of time, out of necessity.
We didn't have a choice.
Jim Hertzfeld (07:26):
Yeah, trust comes to mind.
Convenience, you know, Iremember years ago walking into
a hotel room in las vegas andfinding remote control for the
shades and I thought I do, Ireally need this.
Then I got home and I found Iprobably need this.
So the convenience factor, thecertainly yeah, like I said, the
balance of trust and and soforth.
(07:46):
So that's.
I'm glad you brought up sort ofthe societal shifts and changes
and the cultural changes,because I agree, I think that's
a significant part of it.
Claus Torp Jensen (07:54):
And trust is important.
I mean, as you brought up,because if you try to change
what looks like it's driven bytechnology for technology's sake
, you will very often end up ina distrust scenario.
But on the other hand, if youjust continue down the same path
, then there's a limit to whatyou can do.
I think it was Henry Ford whosaid in the early 1900s if I'd
(08:15):
asked people what they wanted,they would have said faster
horses.
Jim Hertzfeld (08:19):
Because at the time, horses were the thing.
Claus Torp Jensen (08:22):
I mean, they were the easiest way to get
around from a personaltransportation perspective.
And the reality is thebreakthrough for the combustion
engine wasn't actually peopletransportation, it was trucks,
it was the transformation, itwas the transportation of goods.
And that's why we still measureall engine power in horsepower,
because how many horses isequivalent of goods can you
(08:42):
transport?
So it's just fun to dive backin history and say I think he
was right.
If he had asked people whatthey wanted, they would have
said faster horses.
And a lot of things wouldn'thave happened if we'd been
satisfied with faster horses.
Jim Hertzfeld (08:54):
Yeah, that's the essence of innovation, for sure.
So, as different companies andI like that you crossed over
different industries.
It's kind of easy to go fromconnected vehicle, you know, to
a connected power grid, to andbeyond, as I would say, say sort
of non-traditional, maybeunexpected companies with
different types of products andservices.
(09:14):
Think about this what are someof the and are getting into the
possibilities of ambient ordigitally connected products or
formulating digital twins?
What are some of the barriersand challenges that you see
other companies running into asthey explore adopting these into
their value proposition?
Claus Torp Jensen (09:33):
I think, more than anything else, it's
probably mindset, and I meanit's how do you think about the
problem?
And then the second part is youknow what is the coalition for
change that you can create andbe that internal, be it with
partners, be it with clients,because you can't need both.
You need the right mindset tothink about innovation and you
need the right coalition todrive the change that results
(09:54):
from innovation.
What's innovation?
If you go to patent law, patentlaw says that you can patent
something that is novel, not newnovel.
You get a new car, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
the notion of the car is novel.
It has to be non-obvious.
So somebody has to thinkoutside the typical box and it
has to be valuable.
I actually I've always thoughtthat that was a wonderful way of
(10:16):
measuring innovation.
You got to be novel, it's gotto be non-obvious and it has to
be valuable.
And in fact I've run classes onthat with the teams I've had
myself, where we just talkthrough what is innovation?
It's a mindset.
Look, it's a personal journey.
It's a mindset.
Look, it's a personal journey.
It's a mindset.
It's a way of thinking aboutthe world and looking for things
that are novel and non-obviousand valuable, and sometimes
(10:36):
they're small.
You've got incremental changesthat are really meaningful,
valuable, and they don't have tobe monster, big, sometimes a
little bit more radical.
You haven't changed what you'redoing, but you're changing how,
and sometimes they'retransformational, disrupted.
You're completely changing whatit's all about and what it is
you do as an organization, andall three have value.
(10:58):
They happen in different ways,in different cycles, but it's
not like one is better than theother.
I don't think any organizationcan survive in the long run
without, at the right moments intime, doing all three.
Jim Hertzfeld (11:09):
Right.
Well, I'm glad it's a greatcallback.
I think we often think of theemerging technology or a
technology breakthrough as asole driver for innovation.
I think thinking broadly I'mthinking of the Doblins 10 types
of innovation but the mindsetis critical.
I think there are a lot of waysand we've talked about this on
this podcast how you bring themindset in.
(11:32):
Sometimes it's a cross-industrypoint of view, but how do you
see organizations overcomingsome of these challenges?
And I want to call out there'sa profile of you I read that
said you've seen the best andworst of how organizations
approach change.
I like that, I believe it.
So, thinking with the mindsetin mind, with that different, I
believe it.
So, thinking with the mindsetin mind, with that different,
with that definition ofinnovation.
Claus Torp Jensen (11:52):
I think the worst are things like insisting
on change but not accepting thatit takes time and resources.
I mean, that's like just aconundrum that you can't really
resolve.
Look, we need to be efficientwith our time and resources I'm
talking about squandering it butyou can't insist on change and
not being willing to have theconversation about what's it
(12:13):
going to take in terms of timeand resources.
I think that's the one pitfallthat people fall into and you
often see it when you're talkingabout you know, ambient
solutions, digital twins.
That's all about the data andthe insight.
So, since the data is in manyorganizations, scattered, siloed
, is not put together, thatoften becomes a barrier and the
conversation about how do youput the data together in a
cohesive fashion becomes afabric that can help you drive
(12:36):
positive impact.
It's a difficult conversationbecause nobody wants to just
invest in the data.
I want to move on to AI.
When can we get going on the AIthing?
You need to create cohesivedata before you can do good
artificial intelligence.
So I think that's the one thingright not being willing to have
the conversation about it takestime and it takes resources.
Jim Hertzfeld (12:56):
I was just going to mention.
On the topic of data, we justfinished a pretty significant
project with a pharmaceuticalcompany that it was really built
on the promise of AI, but about90% of the effort was gathering
the data, as you mentioned.
So so for sure.
Claus Torp Jensen (13:10):
It's just.
The other part is, if you don'thave a chief storyteller, it
doesn't have to be someone whocomes from a particular pedigree
.
You can have a chiefstoryteller that comes from the
business side.
You can have a chiefstoryteller that comes from the
technology side.
I like to describe myself astechnology's turned chief
storyteller.
If you think about what is theessence of the role of chief
(13:31):
innovation officer, I mean wehad a CIO, a CTO, a CDIO, a
chief architect, and they wereall part of my organization.
So what's my role?
Chief storyteller?
I mean somebody has to puttogether the pieces of the story
and say, hey, if the Andrewisn't faster horses, what might
be some ideas, some things thatwe can weave together?
(13:52):
And how do we tell the story sothat you overcome the
organizational inertia?
With, hey, I just want a fasterhorse.
So not naming a chiefstoryteller, not knowing who is
the storytelling persona in theroom, preferably someone in the
senior leadership role, the tipbecomes a detractor more often
than not in terms of how you goabout driving innovation and
(14:17):
positive change.
And then how do you overcome it?
Well, it's quite simple.
You have the open, honest andtransparent conversation, as
launched by the chiefstoryteller, about the fact that
which of these ideas do wethink are valuable enough and
how do we balance the valueagainst the resources and time
it's going to take to get there?
So it's like yin and yang it'stwo sides of the coin.
(14:41):
I mean, the things that aredetractors are also the things
you have to do to make sure thatyou can be a little bit more
thoughtful about how you driveinnovation.
Jim Hertzfeld (14:51):
That's a great one.
I have a meeting with my CEO intwo days and I realized we may
not have the storyteller that weneed, and actually that's a
great now.
What's next for me?
So that was great advice, butfor our listeners, with this in
mind, what would you give themin terms of a now?
What a simple step that theycould take to maybe adopt the
mindset or tell a better story.
Claus Torp Jensen (15:13):
I think those are all relevant.
You know, have the conversationabout the mindset and that
innovation doesn't come in oneshape or form.
Innovation should be part ofthe day job, not something we do
on the side.
And it's not done by a specialteam, it's done all the time
across the organization, knowingwho your chief storyteller or
(15:34):
tellers because it can be morethan one person are, and being
willing to think about the.
You know one year out, threeyears out, five years out, you
know what is meaningful andvaluable to invest in.
And then this is going to sounda little bit weird, but don't
despair, don't get tired.
Things take time.
They require energy,perseverance.
(15:56):
To quote Thomas Edison,opportunity is missed by most
people because it's dressed inoveralls and looks like work.
And I love that quote and I'veactually used or misused it a
number of times and saidinnovation is missed by most
people because it's dressed inoveralls and looks like work.
If you want to quote anotherknown person, einstein said you
(16:20):
know, genius is 1% inspiration,99% perspiration.
He's not wrong.
It takes work, effort,thoughtfulness to actually be
innovative.
We should be proud of it whenwe accomplish it, but we
shouldn't be afraid of the work.
Jim Hertzfeld (16:35):
Klaus, next time we do this, I'm going to wear my
overalls, so I expect the samefrom you.
Klaus, thanks for sharing thisinsight.
You've earned it.
We've worn the overalls, you'vedone the hard work, and thanks
for sharing part of your story.
I'm looking forward to see howyour story unfolds.
So thanks again for joining ushere.
Claus Torp Jensen (16:53):
My absolute pleasure.
Thanks for the invite.
Jim Hertzfeld (16:55):
Cheers.
You've been listening to what,if so what?
A digital strategy podcast fromProficient with Jim Hertzfeld.
We want to thank our Proficientcolleagues JD Norman and Rick
Bauer for our music.
Subscribe to the podcast anddon't miss a single episode.
You can find this season, alongwith show notes, at
Proficientcom.
(17:16):
Thanks for listening.
You can instrument your car, you can
instrument your house.
To a degree, you can instrumentyour body at least a little bit
, because you can have wearablesthat tell you things about your
environment.
What if you could harness allthat power to have someone that
always watched out for you,looked for bad things and
celebrated good things?
So it wasn't in the way, it wasambient, it was just part of
(00:26):
the environment, and it would bethere as your personal life
assistant.
Jim Hertzfeld (00:32):
Welcome to what If so what, the podcast where we
explore what's possible withdigital and discover how to make
it real in your business.
I'm your host, jim Hertzfeld,and we get shit done by asking
digital leaders the rightquestions what, if so, what and,
most importantly now, what?
Our guest today is Klaus TorpJensen, and he's done it all
Chief Architect, Chief TechnicalOfficer, Chief Digital Officer
(00:55):
and Chief Innovation OfficerWith IBM, CVS, Memorial, Sloan
Kettering Cancer Center, Teladocand others.
Also a published author on thetopics of whole person care,
digital transformation, hybridcloud, APIs and I still call it
SOA.
Some call it SOA, others callit service-oriented architecture
.
Not only that, he's a GuinnessBook of World Records holder.
(01:16):
In 1987, in Denmark, he helpedset the record for the world's
largest solitaire game with 200decks of cards.
Klaus, welcome to the podcast.
Did I leave anything out?
Claus Torp Jensen (01:26):
Thank you very much.
That was more than enough.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:29):
I'm glad to be here.
Do you still hold the record?
I'm curious.
I'm dying to know.
Claus Torp Jensen (01:33):
I have no idea.
The way this thing works isthey don't always publish the
same records every year, sopossibly somebody broke the
record, who knows, but it wasfun at the time.
Jim Hertzfeld (01:41):
It sounds like fun.
You've seen and done so manydifferent things and when you
and I are preparing for thisepisode, you mentioned a couple
of related things that we'rehearing a lot about from our
clients ambient computing anddigital twin.
I would say they've not quitemade the everyday lexicon.
I'll point out they both soundlike electronica duos great
(02:04):
names if they aren't taken.
Could you give us an overviewof these two concepts ambient
computing and digital twin, kindof, in your words, your
perspective?
Claus Torp Jensen (02:11):
So I think what's important about them is
their real-world capabilities.
We talk a lot about technologyand technologies all around us
and all the bosses around AI,but AI doesn't do anything in
and of itself.
What can you do with it?
Ai, but AI doesn't do anythingin and of itself.
What can you do with it If yougo back in time 10 years?
I was at the point in time whenI was moving from IBM to Aetna
(02:31):
at the time and somebody at aconference asked me you know,
look forward in time five years.
It is like ridiculous, but ifyou're a technologist you can't
look forward in time for fiveyears.
But they wanted to know what doyou think is going to happen?
And you have to say something.
So what I said was I think fiveyears from now, we're going to
be beginning to see sciencefiction become real, which is an
(02:52):
interesting statement, because,if you think about what is
science fiction, it's not aboutspaceships, it's not about
flying cars, but fundamentally,the evolution of technology has
moved us to a space where we'rebeginning to fuse technology,
people, sensors, analytics andhow we live our lives.
I mean, that is, in many ways,the essence of what a science
fiction-like society looks like,and the root of both digital
(03:13):
twins and sort of this wholenotion of invisible but
benevolent computing solutions,the ambient solutions lives in
that, if you think about it,we've got more sensors than ever
.
We can sense pretty much mostthings we want.
You can instrument your car,you can instrument your house To
a degree, you can instrumentyour body at least a little bit,
(03:35):
because you can have wearablesthat tell you things about your
environment.
What if you could harness allthat power to have someone that
always watched out for you,looked for bad things and
celebrated good things?
So it wasn't in the way it wasambient, it was just part of the
environment and it would bethere as your personal life
assistant at knee.
(03:56):
I think that's meaningful.
As you said, you know, the lastbook I published talked about
this whole notion of ambientcomputing in healthcare.
But it's not limited tohealthcare.
I mean, you see the same thingin transportation.
You see it in the electricalgrid, if you want to monitor the
electrical grid.
That's meaningful.
So there are lots of industriesthat are beginning to see the
notion of this mix of analytics,sensors, insight, invisibly
(04:20):
present but actively takingaction when necessary, be a
fundamental part of society.
So in my mind, that's takingaction when necessary be a
fundamental part of society.
So in my mind, that's a realworld capability, ambient
solutions, and it goes hand inhand, as you mentioned, with the
notion of a digital twin.
Because what's a digital twin?
It's a data representation ofsomething, an item, a system,
and the examples could be theelectrical grid, it could be a
(04:42):
building, ultimately, maybeaspects of a human where we have
enough data about it that wecan start predicting things,
because it's not reasoning aboutwhat might happen if so-and-so
was to occur, because you don'talways want to experiment in
real life.
So, if you take the notion ofambient solutions that give us
this constant awareness, theyalso collect a bunch of data
(05:05):
which you can then use to builddigital twin representations or
whatever you were monitoring,and that then helps you reason
about good and bad things thatmight happen.
So two real world capabilitiesthat are closely connected.
Jim Hertzfeld (05:17):
I'm glad you pointed out the benevolence
factor in that in yourdefinition.
So, speaking of science fiction, a lot of science fiction is
based on the opposite of thatwhich makes it makes great
entertainment.
But what I'm always curiousabout, when a particular
technology or converges orbegins to take off or enter our
consciousness, is what changedto do that In this case?
(05:39):
Was it the prevalence and theeconomics of sensors?
Was it the other end of thelife cycle where we were better
able to conduct the analysis andthe compute on the data sets?
What do you think has sort ofmade this change?
Claus Torp Jensen (05:54):
It's a great question.
I don't know whether it was onething.
I mean.
Sometimes you just live at atime where you have this
confluence of factors and if yougo look back in history the
history of society, combinedwith the role of technology in
society, there's sort of beenmoments in time where that
happened.
Think about the portablecomputing device, whether that's
(06:16):
a laptop or a phone, as we callthem now.
But the whole notion of aportable computing device was a
combination of hardware,software in a society that was
changing.
Yeah, you can go back in time.
You can talk about the internet.
Same thing you can talk about Idon't know telephony.
You could even go far enoughback and talk about electricity,
(06:37):
and you see the same notionthat society is changing, has
different needs.
There are different technologycomponents that come together
and all of a sudden you havethis transformative power that
gets unleashed.
And we live in one of thosetimes because change is
happening more rapid than everbefore and it's going to happen,
whether we grasp theopportunity or not.
(06:59):
I do think that the forcedacceleration of societal change
that came from Two years ofpandemic conditions have
probably contributed to whythere is this moment in time,
and it's not a decade.
It's a year or two where all ofa sudden everything is coming
together.
We're thinking about itdifferently because we were
(07:19):
forced to disrupt paradigms thathad served us well for a long
period of time, out of necessity.
We didn't have a choice.
Jim Hertzfeld (07:26):
Yeah, trust comes to mind.
Convenience, you know, Iremember years ago walking into
a hotel room in las vegas andfinding remote control for the
shades and I thought I do, Ireally need this.
Then I got home and I found Iprobably need this.
So the convenience factor, thecertainly yeah, like I said, the
balance of trust and and soforth.
(07:46):
So that's.
I'm glad you brought up sort ofthe societal shifts and changes
and the cultural changes,because I agree, I think that's
a significant part of it.
Claus Torp Jensen (07:54):
And trust is important.
I mean, as you brought up,because if you try to change
what looks like it's driven bytechnology for technology's sake
, you will very often end up ina distrust scenario.
But on the other hand, if youjust continue down the same path
, then there's a limit to whatyou can do.
I think it was Henry Ford whosaid in the early 1900s if I'd
(08:15):
asked people what they wanted,they would have said faster
horses.
Jim Hertzfeld (08:19):
Because at the time, horses were the thing.
Claus Torp Jensen (08:22):
I mean, they were the easiest way to get
around from a personaltransportation perspective.
And the reality is thebreakthrough for the combustion
engine wasn't actually peopletransportation, it was trucks,
it was the transformation, itwas the transportation of goods.
And that's why we still measureall engine power in horsepower,
because how many horses isequivalent of goods can you
(08:42):
transport?
So it's just fun to dive backin history and say I think he
was right.
If he had asked people whatthey wanted, they would have
said faster horses.
And a lot of things wouldn'thave happened if we'd been
satisfied with faster horses.
Jim Hertzfeld (08:54):
Yeah, that's the essence of innovation, for sure.
So, as different companies andI like that you crossed over
different industries.
It's kind of easy to go fromconnected vehicle, you know, to
a connected power grid, to andbeyond, as I would say, say sort
of non-traditional, maybeunexpected companies with
different types of products andservices.
(09:14):
Think about this what are someof the and are getting into the
possibilities of ambient ordigitally connected products or
formulating digital twins?
What are some of the barriersand challenges that you see
other companies running into asthey explore adopting these into
their value proposition?
Claus Torp Jensen (09:33):
I think, more than anything else, it's
probably mindset, and I meanit's how do you think about the
problem?
And then the second part is youknow what is the coalition for
change that you can create andbe that internal, be it with
partners, be it with clients,because you can't need both.
You need the right mindset tothink about innovation and you
need the right coalition todrive the change that results
(09:54):
from innovation.
What's innovation?
If you go to patent law, patentlaw says that you can patent
something that is novel, not newnovel.
You get a new car, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
the notion of the car is novel.
It has to be non-obvious.
So somebody has to thinkoutside the typical box and it
has to be valuable.
I actually I've always thoughtthat that was a wonderful way of
(10:16):
measuring innovation.
You got to be novel, it's gotto be non-obvious and it has to
be valuable.
And in fact I've run classes onthat with the teams I've had
myself, where we just talkthrough what is innovation?
It's a mindset.
Look, it's a personal journey.
It's a mindset.
Look, it's a personal journey.
It's a mindset.
It's a way of thinking aboutthe world and looking for things
that are novel and non-obviousand valuable, and sometimes
(10:36):
they're small.
You've got incremental changesthat are really meaningful,
valuable, and they don't have tobe monster, big, sometimes a
little bit more radical.
You haven't changed what you'redoing, but you're changing how,
and sometimes they'retransformational, disrupted.
You're completely changing whatit's all about and what it is
you do as an organization, andall three have value.
(10:58):
They happen in different ways,in different cycles, but it's
not like one is better than theother.
I don't think any organizationcan survive in the long run
without, at the right moments intime, doing all three.
Jim Hertzfeld (11:09):
Right.
Well, I'm glad it's a greatcallback.
I think we often think of theemerging technology or a
technology breakthrough as asole driver for innovation.
I think thinking broadly I'mthinking of the Doblins 10 types
of innovation but the mindsetis critical.
I think there are a lot of waysand we've talked about this on
this podcast how you bring themindset in.
(11:32):
Sometimes it's a cross-industrypoint of view, but how do you
see organizations overcomingsome of these challenges?
And I want to call out there'sa profile of you I read that
said you've seen the best andworst of how organizations
approach change.
I like that, I believe it.
So, thinking with the mindsetin mind, with that different, I
believe it.
So, thinking with the mindsetin mind, with that different,
with that definition ofinnovation.
Claus Torp Jensen (11:52):
I think the worst are things like insisting
on change but not accepting thatit takes time and resources.
I mean, that's like just aconundrum that you can't really
resolve.
Look, we need to be efficientwith our time and resources I'm
talking about squandering it butyou can't insist on change and
not being willing to have theconversation about what's it
(12:13):
going to take in terms of timeand resources.
I think that's the one pitfallthat people fall into and you
often see it when you're talkingabout you know, ambient
solutions, digital twins.
That's all about the data andthe insight.
So, since the data is in manyorganizations, scattered, siloed
, is not put together, thatoften becomes a barrier and the
conversation about how do youput the data together in a
cohesive fashion becomes afabric that can help you drive
(12:36):
positive impact.
It's a difficult conversationbecause nobody wants to just
invest in the data.
I want to move on to AI.
When can we get going on the AIthing?
You need to create cohesivedata before you can do good
artificial intelligence.
So I think that's the one thingright not being willing to have
the conversation about it takestime and it takes resources.
Jim Hertzfeld (12:56):
I was just going to mention.
On the topic of data, we justfinished a pretty significant
project with a pharmaceuticalcompany that it was really built
on the promise of AI, but about90% of the effort was gathering
the data, as you mentioned.
So so for sure.
Claus Torp Jensen (13:10):
It's just.
The other part is, if you don'thave a chief storyteller, it
doesn't have to be someone whocomes from a particular pedigree
.
You can have a chiefstoryteller that comes from the
business side.
You can have a chiefstoryteller that comes from the
technology side.
I like to describe myself astechnology's turned chief
storyteller.
If you think about what is theessence of the role of chief
(13:31):
innovation officer, I mean wehad a CIO, a CTO, a CDIO, a
chief architect, and they wereall part of my organization.
So what's my role?
Chief storyteller?
I mean somebody has to puttogether the pieces of the story
and say, hey, if the Andrewisn't faster horses, what might
be some ideas, some things thatwe can weave together?
(13:52):
And how do we tell the story sothat you overcome the
organizational inertia?
With, hey, I just want a fasterhorse.
So not naming a chiefstoryteller, not knowing who is
the storytelling persona in theroom, preferably someone in the
senior leadership role, the tipbecomes a detractor more often
than not in terms of how you goabout driving innovation and
(14:17):
positive change.
And then how do you overcome it?
Well, it's quite simple.
You have the open, honest andtransparent conversation, as
launched by the chiefstoryteller, about the fact that
which of these ideas do wethink are valuable enough and
how do we balance the valueagainst the resources and time
it's going to take to get there?
So it's like yin and yang it'stwo sides of the coin.
(14:41):
I mean, the things that aredetractors are also the things
you have to do to make sure thatyou can be a little bit more
thoughtful about how you driveinnovation.
Jim Hertzfeld (14:51):
That's a great one.
I have a meeting with my CEO intwo days and I realized we may
not have the storyteller that weneed, and actually that's a
great now.
What's next for me?
So that was great advice, butfor our listeners, with this in
mind, what would you give themin terms of a now?
What a simple step that theycould take to maybe adopt the
mindset or tell a better story.
Claus Torp Jensen (15:13):
I think those are all relevant.
You know, have the conversationabout the mindset and that
innovation doesn't come in oneshape or form.
Innovation should be part ofthe day job, not something we do
on the side.
And it's not done by a specialteam, it's done all the time
across the organization, knowingwho your chief storyteller or
(15:34):
tellers because it can be morethan one person are, and being
willing to think about the.
You know one year out, threeyears out, five years out, you
know what is meaningful andvaluable to invest in.
And then this is going to sounda little bit weird, but don't
despair, don't get tired.
Things take time.
They require energy,perseverance.
(15:56):
To quote Thomas Edison,opportunity is missed by most
people because it's dressed inoveralls and looks like work.
And I love that quote and I'veactually used or misused it a
number of times and saidinnovation is missed by most
people because it's dressed inoveralls and looks like work.
If you want to quote anotherknown person, einstein said you
(16:20):
know, genius is 1% inspiration,99% perspiration.
He's not wrong.
It takes work, effort,thoughtfulness to actually be
innovative.
We should be proud of it whenwe accomplish it, but we
shouldn't be afraid of the work.
Jim Hertzfeld (16:35):
Klaus, next time we do this, I'm going to wear my
overalls, so I expect the samefrom you.
Klaus, thanks for sharing thisinsight.
You've earned it.
We've worn the overalls, you'vedone the hard work, and thanks
for sharing part of your story.
I'm looking forward to see howyour story unfolds.
So thanks again for joining ushere.
Claus Torp Jensen (16:53):
My absolute pleasure.
Thanks for the invite.
Jim Hertzfeld (16:55):
Cheers.
You've been listening to what,if so what?
A digital strategy podcast fromProficient with Jim Hertzfeld.
We want to thank our Proficientcolleagues JD Norman and Rick
Bauer for our music.
Subscribe to the podcast anddon't miss a single episode.
You can find this season, alongwith show notes, at
Proficientcom.
(17:16):
Thanks for listening.
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