November 10, 2024 • 61 mins
On this episode Sam and Hannah are joined by Michelle from Amplify Accessible Travel Specialists about the importance of respite and the recent changes to STA. This episode was recorded a while ago, so we now know more about the final form of these changes. We wanted to release the episode anyway because we love Michelle's passion and there is still plenty of useful and relevant information, especially about how the changes impact participants and providers in this space.
If you want to get in touch with Michelle, you can check out the website:
email:
or call:
07 5609 7672
If you want to get in touch with us, you can:
Contact the podcast whatinthendispod@gmail.com
Contact Hannah hello@plandecoders.com.au
Contact Sam sam@rosenbaum.consulting
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We acknowledge the original owners of the land on which we podcast, whose stories were told for thousands of years.
(00:08):
Today we are recording in Mianjin. We pay our respects to elders past and present who may be listening.
Sovereignty was never ceded.
A quick note before we get started that there may be some swearing in today's podcast.
If you don't like swearing or usually listen with children in the car, you have been warned.
(00:31):
This episode of What in the NDIS Now is brought to you by Astalti.
Astalti is the software solution for NDIS professionals built by NDIS professionals.
Astalti is my go-to software and Astalti is trusted and loved by hundreds of other NDIS providers.
(00:53):
I love how easy it is to use and how it keeps all my participant information, notes and invoicing all in one place available to me anytime from any device.
Sign up now for your 14-day free trial. Head to astalti.com.au to sign up now.
See for yourself how much easier managing all your NDIS business needs are by using Astalti.
(01:20):
Thanks again to Astalti for sponsoring today's episode.
Guys, gals, non-binary pals, welcome to this week's episode.
I'm so glad you're here.
This week we have Michelle, who runs a travel agent for people with disabilities.
She discussed with us the changes happening in the STA space.
(01:43):
This chat took place a while ago before we knew what the new legislation was going to say.
I wanted to release it anyway because I love Michelle's passion for this part of the NDIS space.
There is still heaps of useful information and this chat offers an insight into the impacts the changes to STA will have on participants and providers.
(02:08):
Thanks a ton for listening and I'll see you around.
Hi Sam, how are you going?
I'm really good thanks, how are you?
Yeah, I'm doing well, but I'm also a bit confused about a lot of the rules changes.
(02:30):
And so today on the podcast, we have Michelle, who is an STA provider here to talk about what's been happening and changing in that space.
Welcome Michelle.
Thank you, thanks for having me. Hi Sam, hi Hannah.
(02:51):
Hi Michelle, great to have you.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
So as we always start, where did you grow up?
I actually am born and bred on the Gold Coast, so one of the few that actually stays here.
But growing up, it was pretty much 50-50 Gold Coast and Hamilton Island.
Yeah, my mother did the uniforms on the island, so we were always up there running them up.
(03:17):
And then most holidays in Victoria as well.
So it was a bit of a spread about grow up, you know, Gold Coast, Melbourne, Hamilton.
So I got to love the country from a young age.
Oh wow, that's so interesting.
And so what brought you to the disability sector?
It was kind of a light bulb moment, I suppose.
(03:41):
I've always grown up around disability, so to me it's never really been anything different for me.
You know, I have a cousin who is paraplegic.
I've got an uncle who's got cerebral palsy, another cousin that's Down syndrome.
You know, it's just to me disability wasn't any different.
It was just, you know, sometimes they sat more than I did.
(04:03):
That's pretty much it for me, you know.
And then as I got older, more friends unfortunately ended up with paralysis.
So I suppose as I got older, I started really listening and seeing, you know,
people's complaints and issues following disabilities, following injuries.
(04:24):
But to be honest, my cousin that was paralysed that I grew up with from a young age,
he actually was a pretty famous Paralympian.
So he was a captain of the, which is important to talk about during the Paralympics at the moment.
That's exciting.
So he was captain of the Australian basketball team, wheelchair basketball team,
(04:46):
and they ended up winning gold at the Olympics.
That's so cool.
I know, he did so well.
He went on to make huge differences in Australia,
going around making sure that workplaces were adapting for people to be able to go back into the workplace after injury,
making sure the governments were really looking at their parks and their government buildings
(05:10):
that they were accessible for people in chairs to be able to go into.
So I've gone up with Sandy.
Sandy Blythe is his name for people that know the Paralympians
so that a lot of people would know his name.
You know, he's such a huge character and so inspiring.
But then a few years ago we got a phone call and he had taken his life.
(05:33):
And it was such a shock to the family that somebody that was such a giant in our eyes,
such a champion in our eyes could actually go down that path.
And we later found out that, you know, he had his own struggles, you know, from a health perspective,
but from a mental health perspective, it was that concern that what are Australians doing?
(05:57):
Is anybody stepping up and making a difference?
Is life going to get any easier or any better or are we just going to continue to struggle
and, you know, not have enough attention paid to us?
And so from that moment, I decided, you know, I wanted to continue Sandy's legacy and making a difference.
But I really, really wanted to make sure we stopped this cycle of people taking their lives after injury
(06:22):
and stop the, you know, some of the most important people in our society from thinking that nobody cares,
that nobody's there to make a difference.
And for me and from growing up, travel's always been amazing for my mental health.
And you look at all the research that's done and why, you know, when you're working for companies,
(06:43):
you're given holiday leave because you have to have that mental health break.
But so do people with disabilities, you know, and 20% of our population have some form of disability.
They deserve to be able to travel too.
And, you know, from all my experience being in the tourism industry, seeing the difficulties they go through,
I realised pretty quickly that there's nobody out there that really does what I do to be able to help them.
(07:10):
So I did my research, I looked into options, and I thought finally I found something that can help with Sandy's legacy
in making a difference whilst also boosting mental health and hopefully reducing the amount of people
that make that horrible decision, that horrible sacrifice to take their lives.
So, sorry, that went a bit deeper than I think you probably expected.
(07:32):
No, that's a really heartfelt story and a really strong, and you can see the influence that that's had
in your decision making and your advocacy and your passion as well.
So thank you so much for sharing.
Of course.
So tell us a little bit about what it is you do now.
You do travel and some STAs, so tell us a little bit about that and how it works.
(07:57):
Well, after doing my research, I found that a lot of people I know were told that they could do STAs,
but they were told they had to go to these group homes in the middle of Logan or in some suburban house
with dogs and cats and lots of other people, and they felt like they were being grouped together
(08:19):
or packed in together and pushed aside, which is a common feeling for people with disabilities.
They always feel like they're being shoved aside or pushed aside to just do what they're told.
So what I did is with my research, I'm like, OK, well, group homes work for certain people,
but for some people, especially neurodivergent, they cannot be in these homes.
(08:41):
So what can I do as a solution?
And I looked at, you know, like the Saagoods and the Spinal Life cans.
Actually, Spinal Life didn't exist at that time, but, you know, I loved the Saagood method,
but it was so expensive.
I couldn't get my head around why that venue was charging so much money.
So looking at that, I'm like, OK, well, we can we know what to look for for accessible accommodation.
(09:05):
We know the right contacts for care support, for nursing support.
If people want to be able to travel, but if they're peg fed or if they need bounce support in the morning
or, you know, wound care whilst traveling, we need to be able to connect them with the right nursing support
or care support that can assist with that continuation of lifestyle.
You know, and then there's the accessible transport, there's the accessible equipment that they might need.
(09:29):
We basically looked at a general model for like worst case scenario, you know, high level disability,
nonverbal, peg fed, and we thought, OK, how would we make this work?
And then we looked at the neurodivergent model and we looked at, you know, the sort of site model
or the legally blind, and we really established every single person in the market to see what would work
(09:51):
and how we can make everything fit for them.
And so that's how we came up with our STA model with looking after accommodation, care support, equipment,
higher nursing care, consumables if they're needed, accessible transport, accessible goals and activities
as long as they meet the plans.
So it was quite intensive, but at the same time, it was really important to me to make sure we manage people's budgets effectively.
(10:18):
So rather than barging into the market as a NDIS STA provider, we actually came in as a travel agent.
So we went and got all our assessments done and everything with the Australian Travel Association.
So we are an accredited travel agent, we're cruise ship accredited, not that it matters now, Bill Shorten's changes.
(10:44):
And we have our IATA as well, so International Airfares.
So, you know, we've gone down that avenue, which not only makes us accredited and authorised to book accommodation,
so you think short term accommodation, we are actually authorised to do that.
And we stick to the Australian Travel Agency rules and requirements to be able to do that.
(11:06):
But it also means we stick to the funding method and funding program that travel agents do.
Instead of going, OK, we're going to do a package, but we're going to charge this total amount because the NDIS tells us we can,
we charge what the actual amount is.
And there is a big gap there. And that's something we really pride ourselves in with what we do with short term accommodation.
(11:28):
That's awesome. I love this so much.
Coming. That's why initially when you said, oh, where you grew up, I was like, oh, that's so interesting because that seems to relate to what happens next.
And you becoming a travel agent and because you grew up going everywhere and travelling and getting a bit of a travel bug yourself, I'm guessing.
(12:01):
And I'm excited that you went down the path of being an accredited travel agent first.
And we're like, this is how the way around. We want to be able to do this.
That's so exciting.
And then thinking about all the other things that go into travelling when you have a disability and almost a massive entourage in the sense of,
(12:34):
you know, like you said, if you're peg fed or you need bowel care or whatever it is, I really think that's awesome.
Thank you. It helps to know your market.
And to add to it, another thing that I pride myself in and that was really important to me was employing staff with lived experience and breaking the barrier.
(13:00):
I know it was a big, big important factor for Dylan Olcott was getting people back into the workplace.
So not long after starting my business five or so years ago, I ended up hiring a lovely gentleman by the name of Brett.
And he is quadriplegic. And, you know, we had other able bodied staff during COVID.
We got smashed. So I had to re-evaluate the staffing situation and we let go a lot of the staff.
(13:26):
But the only person that I wanted to keep a hold of was Brett because he worked harder than everybody else and he knew what requirements were needed.
And so just having that lived experience and that knowledge just well outweighed all the other staff that I had.
So they all unfortunately left and he stayed and he's still with me today.
(13:48):
That's so cool.
We took a bit of a similar approach with our model.
So we try and ensure that our percentage of people with a lived experience or people with a disability are at a higher margin.
So we've kind of got it at about 65 per cent. We're kind of there, not quite fully there.
We're about 50-50.
We're at the neurodivergent, but I think pushes everybody up a little bit.
(14:13):
But I don't think many people accept that they're neurodivergent.
100 per cent. Well, I take up 25 per cent of that 50.
And then we've got another ladder in our business that came up.
I saw looking on one of the NDIS groups going, I've got this kind of qualification case. This is what I'm doing at school.
I'd love to get a job, anyone willing to help and have a conversation with them.
(14:36):
And the best interview I think I've conducted to date, just draw dropping in some of the responses.
Both my business partner and myself were thoroughly impressed.
And to date, we're still saying that's the best decision we've ever made today.
But I really do want to sort of touch base on that kind of scoping out the market and your participant base
(14:58):
and really drilling down into the individual needs of each kind of disability.
When you sort of have done that, how beneficial has that been in managing risks moving forward on an individual participant level?
Because we did similar things with our event program at All Access Pass,
(15:21):
where we were looking very heavily at making every event inclusive
and looking at how we do high care bowel therapy on a greenfield event site and stuff like that.
So we haven't actually fully run, had the ability to fully run that.
And right now, everything's on hold, unfortunately, with everything that's happening in the sector.
But I'd really love to hear that deep dive that you did at the start, looking at how each disability's need
(15:48):
and then how that sort of assisted and made things moving forward on a risk management and a continuity of support planning side.
I mean, from the beginning, we've always known we've had to do that.
I started off with some business partners before, and during COVID, I bought them out,
which was the best decision I've ever made in my life because I'm a bit of a control freak.
(16:14):
Nothing wrong with that.
I know. OCD, you know. But they had a bit of know-how in the area as well.
So we knew exactly what questions to ask when it came to really identifying risks and I think learned experience.
You know, we're not perfect. And at the beginning, when you start a business, you're going to make mistakes
(16:35):
and you learn along the way. And, you know, with the suggestion of the bowel care, for instance, you know,
we had one person saying, that's OK, and we've got carers that can do that.
But then from a legality perspective, which we learnt down the track, well, actually, no, carers shouldn't be doing that.
It's a nurse that should be doing that.
So unless carers have been specifically trained by a nursing company and been accredited by a nursing company,
(17:01):
they can't do it because of the risk associated with something as high level as bowel care.
And, you know, then we've got the nursing companies that are saying, yeah, we can do it,
but we're going to charge you a minimum three or four hours.
And this really starts to chew down into the core funding or the funding for the STA.
And it's something I don't know if the decision makers in the NDIS have fully accepted or recognised.
(17:30):
So, you know, something like that is where we have to talk to the participant and say, OK,
right now, this is going to chew down different areas of your package.
So we're going to have to re-evaluate this type of accommodation you're saying in and what's included and what's out of pocket.
But what we're going to do is work with you on your plan for the next plan that you do to get you a alternate funding method
(17:53):
to make sure that you've got extra care support included or extra nursing included,
which will add on top of the actual cap amount that the NDIS allow.
So it's really working with people and their plans to make sure that they've got every little element outlined
for their next plan to have it included.
Another area where we had a bit of a hiccup once, and, you know, I won't mention names,
(18:18):
but we had a participant that was neurodivergent and we were told, yep, they're fine.
Barely anyone will notice, you know, they'll just get in and do their thing and then leave.
What we weren't told was some bipolar behaviour that might occur.
And had we been warned about that, we would have been able to pre-warm this.
(18:41):
We had them in a specialised group home, which was amazing, but they weren't pre-warned about this behaviour.
And unfortunately, she was triggered whilst in the accommodation and police got involved
and it was, neighbours got involved and it was a bit nasty.
So, you know, in that circumstance, we were told that she didn't have enough funding
(19:03):
to pay for a carer to be with her the whole time.
So they're like, look, we'll get the carer from this time to this time
and then we'll trust in the house to be OK with caring her.
But it just wasn't.
So that again comes down to all these changes with the NDIS that we just announced last week
and how much allocated care support people should be having on STA.
(19:27):
And it's like, look, I understand that when they're at home in the safety of their own home
and their own environment, they might only get care support three or four hours a day, if that.
But when they're outside and there's potential triggers
and there's different scenarios that are presented to them,
they do need to have a carer with them a lot longer.
We need to protect not only them, but society and people around them.
(19:52):
Because from a neurodivergent perspective, if there's a trigger that sets them off
and the carer or the safe person isn't there, we've got a big problem.
And that's a bigger picture mental health problem that the NDIS have to recognise.
So can you start to describe, I know this will be a bit tricky,
(20:15):
but start to describe some of the changes that have come out for STA?
Where do I start? There are so many changes.
Look, STA is always, I think they're just really knuckling down on what it was meant to be from the start
and trying to get back to that.
So the purpose of an STA, so short-term accommodation, is for participants to be able to have respite.
(20:40):
So it was always respite.
So what it was was for the participant themselves to be able to leave their comforts of their home
and their normal supports being their informal and their formal supports,
and go away for a while and just have a break from their day-to-day life and from those people,
whilst also giving those people a break.
Generally what they would do is they would take that person
(21:02):
and they would almost be a qualified level of disability to be able to have that respite.
So being more your high-level disabilities or high-care disabilities that need to be supported
to be able to go away and, yeah, just escape.
Otherwise, on the occasions where an informal support became really sick
(21:23):
or care companies became sick or didn't have enough carers to look after them,
then they were qualified to go into a respite again.
What we've seen is the boundaries start to get pushed and shoved and amended,
and STAs turn into something to achieve major goals.
So if somebody's like, well, it's always been my goal to go to Disney.
(21:47):
I love Disney. I'm obsessed with Disney.
Everything in my house is Disney. I've got to go Disney, Disney, Disney, Disney.
So if it's in their plan, they were able to then go to Disney or go overseas
because it was qualified.
However, what they're doing now is they're really drilling back down on what STA
and what experiences are qualified and not qualified and where you live.
So let's say you live, I don't know, Karnamalla in the middle of Australia, right?
(22:13):
And you desperately need to attend exercise physiology to be able to support your growth
and your training, or you desperately need to be able to see a podiatrist or something
that isn't at Karnamalla.
Then you qualify to be able to go on an STA as well to travel to a place where you can have
those supports and then travel back again.
So I think in essence what they're doing is making sure that people can still do that,
(22:37):
but it's got to be in their plan.
So if they have in their plan that they need to be able to give their informal supports a break
or they need to be able to themselves have a break from their day to day,
then put the respite in there and you're entitled to up to 28 days.
If you have a major goal, we are telling everybody, put your goals down in your plan.
(22:59):
Everybody should be going through that with their plan writers anyway.
But a lot of people just keep it basic.
They're like, oh, I don't want to be a fast, I don't want to bother anybody
or seem like I'm asking for everything.
I'm sorry, but if you're not going to ask for it and if you're not going to talk about how your life
is going to be improved, you won't have any improvements.
The NDIS isn't going to help you.
(23:20):
The NDIS is here to help you live a better life and live a more fulfilled life
following injury or following diagnosis.
So use your words.
It's as simple as that. Use your words.
I think that's some great advice.
So with these kind of changes, it kind of then brings back the onus on each provider then
(23:41):
to understand how they have eligibility for access criteria.
So this is something that generally I've found as an industry, we fail to really look at appropriately,
even more so in this space with STAs as well.
So how have you sort of taken or started to look at eligibility from a participant level,
(24:07):
how you communicate that and then how you assess as well?
Because it's all well and good for me to go, I'm a participant, I have an NDIS plan,
I've got money sitting here, I want to go on an STA.
But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm eligible.
And this is part of the Wild West that we've seen over the last 10 years is providers sort of just more and more
(24:32):
push that boundaries, let's do some real, like, mind you, some of the stuff we've seen
and some of the overseas stuff is cool, but is cool and necessary and reasonable support
is also a very interesting question.
And I know there's some very good arguments on both sides of the fence in this world.
(24:56):
But then it comes down to ensure that providers don't push participants into financial risk
because we're also seeing legislation in or ability within the legislation for NDIS
to actually personally go after a participant for that money.
There's also some sort of side of things that if then a participant can't actually pay that in the thing,
(25:17):
which means the provider doesn't get paid, which means then the provider has to personally go
that participant and the family for that to get that money back for the supports that have been provided.
Which ultimately comes back down to how do we make sure that we're providing support to those participants
that are actually eligible for it in the first place?
(25:38):
It is really tough, really tough.
And I do not like asking people to share their plans with me.
But it's gotten to the point where we have to see people's plans.
We have to see their goals and we have to sit down and really drill down with them what their goals are,
what they're wanting to achieve and how it's reasonable and necessary.
(25:59):
So we do have an eligibility section in regards to that.
If people are self-managed, we have to trust in what they tell us
and we get them to fill in documents and sign it to say this is their choice.
As a person living with disabilities, this is their choice.
They have told us X, Y, Z and then that's what we're going to go ahead with.
(26:22):
But we also have a clause in our service agreement and also in our communication with people.
Should the NDIS decline funding, you have to pay this out of pocket.
So we make it clear to them, we are doing everything for you.
We work for you to help you achieve your goals.
But at the end of the day, if the funding doesn't happen from an NDIS perspective, you're responsible.
(26:46):
So they do understand that and it's just about clear, transparent communication with them.
If they're plan managed, we really rely on the participant, the support coordinator and also the plan manager
to make sure everybody along the way has approved the decision that we are moving forward
to be able to achieve the goals for the participant.
(27:09):
We have in full transparency been called out once.
It was actually a few months ago where we had the direction from the participant,
approval from the support coordinator, seen the plan and had approval from the plan manager.
So everything was approved.
They went on their respite.
The issues with the NDIS and the situation with the NDIS changed.
(27:34):
The rules and requirements changed.
And all of a sudden, the lack turned around and said, no, not funding it.
After everybody had approved, service agreements were signed.
So now us as a provider are sitting there and we're saying, who's paying?
They had signed that they would fund it themselves if the NDIS disagreed,
but they're still fighting with the NDIS over it because everybody had approved.
(27:57):
So this is the biggest issue for providers is that we do everything we're told to do from the NDIS.
We do everything we're told from the team of supports for a participant, yet this can still happen.
Yeah, it's something that I've heard happening quite a lot is the comments from providers that go,
(28:19):
oh, yeah, I've had invoices flagged and we're not too sure why.
And it really does seem quite a bit of a wild west in recent months.
Also kind of seems like the agency and LACs are free emptying.
And one of our most more recent news podcasts that were recorded,
(28:41):
we had a conversation around the following day after the act changed,
they've re-updated plans to kind of already start mimicking stuff that's come out of the legislation
and change up the whole entire space.
But it's had that feel for about a half of the last 12 months even,
that the agency is taking everything very rogue and starting to implement preempting what government
(29:08):
and co-design and everything is meant to do and start putting more and more layers
without being transparent on what those layers are, how those layers interact,
and the real risk to both provider feasibility and participant financial stability.
Because as you said, they're signing off it.
(29:30):
But the agency is then putting that person at a financial risk by not being clear with the support coordinators,
being clear with the plan managers, and then with the LAC.
And I'm not actually, yeah, the kind of line or the thought pattern kind of has a real egotistical
(29:52):
where controlling the purse, but it's your plan to do with how you want within the flexible funding arrangements
and all of that.
And then God help us once these new framework plans come out where it's just an open sort of,
well, allegedly openly flexible, but all with this co-design that we're still very uncertain about WTF is happening.
(30:17):
I think there's too much confusion across the whole field.
We've had letters from LACs and letters from the NDIA saying what is STA and what is an STA,
and they're all contradicting.
And I think that, well, if the NDIS, if everybody on the top level of the NDIS don't understand,
(30:39):
then how are the rest of us meant to understand?
So it's got to start from the top.
Like anything, it has to start from the top.
So I love what Bill Shorten's done.
I love what he's come out with.
And I hope we get rid of a lot of these cowboys out there that have been ripping people off,
taking the mickey and doing the wrong thing.
Let's get rid of the cowboys.
Let's get back to business.
And let's look at how we can achieve goals for the participants.
(31:01):
So at the end of the day, STA is a huge space for mental health, not just for the participant,
but for the informal supports and formal supports as well.
I've had so many parents at breaking point, like dangerous breaking point,
where they might end up on the news if we don't get these kids or these adults out of their house immediately.
(31:25):
That's what we do.
We do a lot of work with domestic violence as well, where we get people out really quickly.
And it's about having providers that we can take people and get them into the right situation
with approval from the NDIS and support from the NDIS in the right methods,
whilst also saving their court funding and their budget, keeping it reasonable and necessary.
(31:47):
And I think let's get rid of the ones that automatically charge the high level amounts.
Let's work with the care support agencies that are, look,
I understand everybody is entitled to a minimum number of hours, but it's getting ridiculous.
If a participant only needs support for one or two hours a day, why are we being charged 16 hours?
(32:09):
Let's get down to what is actually needed and provided to a participant.
And these great homes that are charging one to one care when there's one to four, sorry, let's clean that up.
That's where we get frustrated and we see it happening.
Even the group tours that we see happening, you know, we've had people do big group tours to Bathurst,
(32:30):
charging one to one when they've got a whole busload of participants and four carers.
That's not acceptable.
So the NDIS has to clean this up, clean up those traders and then make sure we're looking after participants.
And then people will have more choice when it's not getting ripped off as much or when, you know,
I've got competitors out there that are like, the NDIS will give you a free holiday
(32:53):
and you're getting flights and theme parks and hotels and all this stuff.
And it's like, no, no, you can't do that. Stop advertising that.
Like, come on. And that was part of the letter that we all got was stop advertising what's not included
and drill down on what is.
If the participants checking into a hotel at 2pm or a house at 2pm, checking out at 10,
(33:19):
that's not 24 hours worth of care support.
So it should not be that top line amount that is the maximum that can be charged.
So 100%.
You know, but my problem with the letter, it did come out saying about care support, you know,
how if they're going into an STA, the care support should not be charging more hours
(33:40):
than what that participant normally gets in their normal day-to-day life at home.
That I do disagree with to a degree because it depends on the participant.
If the participant is neurodivergent and could pose a risk to them and society,
I'm sorry, they do need extra care outside of their normal home.
If it is somebody that doesn't, absolutely.
Two hours, three hours care support a day, no worries.
(34:04):
The other interesting one is around, like, if you're doing more, if you're going on a holiday,
you're generally doing more throughout a day than you would on any given day.
Like on a night of five, I'm at home in front of my desk, in the office,
going out seeing clients versus if I'm on a holiday, I'm going out looking at sightseeing.
(34:27):
Not that I really care about the whole sightseeing stuff or the touristy thing,
but I'm out, I'm in the community, I'm going looking at shops, I'm going to restaurants,
I'm lounging around a bar, doing lots of different things.
That if I had a disability or I needed support to do those things,
that would then constitute a higher or a higher amount of support hours
(34:49):
than I would on a night of five, on any given day at home.
Yeah, 100%.
And this is, like, specifically with the letter that we got,
you probably saw it as well, the holidays.
So you've got STA for respite, you've got STA for goals,
but then you've got holidays, right?
Holidays are not funded by the NDIS, but what is funded by the NDIS,
(35:14):
if you choose to go on a holiday with your family or with friends,
they will cover your equipment higher that you might need.
So let's say you're travelling and you don't want to fly with your shower commode,
or you're going to need a high-load bed or a hoist or something.
So that will be covered.
Your care support in location will be covered,
but the NDIS is anticipating that if you're going on a holiday,
(35:36):
you'll get a carer from that location.
So let's say you go on a holiday at Cairns,
then you get the carer in Cairns to come and look after you,
not necessarily take a carer with you, right?
If you're staying in accommodation and it's a standard accommodation room
is $200 a night, but the wheelchair-accessible room is $250,
the NDIS is saying they'll consider paying a $50 gap.
(35:59):
So that's the biggest change that's come out from a holiday.
Previously, they went, no holidays, nothing gets funded.
Now they've come out saying, look, care support, equipment higher,
and gaps that are specific to your disability can get covered.
You've just got to be really clear with what that gap is.
So providing the quotes and receipts and things like that
(36:21):
to prove that there is that gap of difference.
Even accessible vehicle hire.
If you were to hire, I don't know, I'm not very good with cards, a CX-5.
Let's say it doesn't take off, but you're going to need a wheelchair-accessible vehicle
that you can actually ride your wheelchair into,
then there's going to be a huge price gap between those two.
So the NDIS will cover the price gap.
(36:44):
So that's what we've taken from the letter.
Everybody's interpretation is different, but that's what we've taken.
So we're now telling people, actually, is this a holiday or is this STA?
You really need to be clear to us what you're doing.
Because if this is clearly a holiday, your accommodation is not going to get covered.
So we have to drill down and make sure we know exactly what's happening.
(37:07):
We've had people that are like, no, no, it's not a holiday, it's a respite.
Yet they're going and posting on social media about a holiday.
It's like, whoa, hang on a second.
That puts all of us at risk.
Yeah.
There's definitely been a very misunderstanding.
And the media has played quite a big part into this,
on the confusion between the holiday and what an STA is.
(37:30):
Because I hear quite a bit from a provider going,
I've had a family approach me to do an STA while they go up to Cairns.
We just use Cairns, sorry, Cairns.
Everybody wants to go to Cairns.
Yeah, it's a great point.
I've been through Cairns. I've done my holiday.
I've done a holiday there, definitely not an STA there.
But then again, I'm not a participant.
(37:52):
I think Cairns tourism is going to like us right now.
Hi Cairns tourism.
We'll take realties, thank you.
But yeah, so it's kind of like if the things that I get is
the family wants to go on a holiday.
They want to be able to take their family member.
But they are kind of seeing this thing that A, providers have looped into
(38:16):
the media sort of looped into and gone, oh, let's run our own STA.
And then we also hear providers, well, unfortunately,
we've seen quite a lot of providers jumping on it, doing it, as you said,
charging that full amount when A, that's not the intent of what
REST Fight ever was.
Ultimately, the key point was to give the informal errors relief
(38:39):
from the day to day.
If we're going to say it was anything, it's that.
So it's not Joe who lives independently or Sally who lives in a cell.
It's Bob that lives with his brother who provides most of the informal
supports when he doesn't have supports in the morning or evening to get
bowel therapy done.
(39:01):
Yeah, exactly right.
It's, you know, we have to give people breaks like we talked about before.
In every single workplace in this country, you legally have to give
people three to four weeks break.
So how is that any different for informal supports?
Like I said, I have seen so many families at breaking point and it is
(39:26):
not fair.
And we have a huge issue with mental health in this country.
And if we're not giving people a break, they might snap.
And that's when you see things like domestic violence happen.
Domestic violence is a huge topic in this country right now.
So let's drill down and find out exactly what is causing it.
This is one area that is causing it.
(39:48):
So yes, REST Fight should be given to every single participant on the NDIS.
I believe everybody should be entitled to a break from their informal
supports, but it must be managed properly and effectively.
The problem is the cowboys that have come out and these businesses, you
know, going back, I love carers, don't get me wrong, but I have some
(40:14):
participants that have had carers go with them on REST Fight and they're
charging the full 67 and 56 cents a day without having a yellow card,
without having their Cert 3 or Cert 4 in disability, without having three
years experience in disability, without having heavy costs like offices
or HR staff or anything like that to cover.
(40:37):
Like that 67, 56, from what I've read on the NDIS is for agencies to
charge because they've got all those hard costs and they've got to pay
the staff.
The NDIS, from my reading, states that care support, if they're
independent, their pricing should be a lot less than that.
Still covering their own costs and their own insurances and everything.
(41:00):
But how do these 19, 20-year-olds come into the market and say, oh, the
NDIS says...
Oh, don't get me started on the 18-year-olds.
Do not get me started on these 18-year-olds that come out on the
Facebook...
I'm sorry, you've got me on a point at the moment.
Yeah, you've got me.
I want to look at the fucking Facebook NDIS groups.
I've done this at school.
I did my Cert 2.
How do I become a support worker and what do I do?
(41:22):
And do I actually need this and do I need...
The fucking worst thing I've actually seen is I'm going independent.
Do I fucking need insurance?
Yes, you fucking goddamn do!
Yes, you need insurance.
Sorry, everyone else in the office or next door.
I love firing you up, Sam.
We're going to have to do this one more time.
It drives me insane.
(41:44):
I've got friends that are independent, that have started out doing their
Cert 3, going in doing some hard yards within some providers, going around
the providers and then getting frustrated with how their management
structure or lack of leadership has really impacted or lack of insight
into the participants.
And then they've gone, I really want to do a lot better for my individual
(42:06):
participants, so I'm going to step out on my own.
Not, I've come out of school and I want to charge $67 without
understanding the sector.
I might only understand some autistic nature because I have a family
member that does it.
I'm going to start hating on clients.
I am horrified by this.
(42:29):
I actually cannot be any more happier with the NDIS review task force
recommendation with Natalie Wade bringing in, and I'm not too sure if
the whole NDIS task force review was a waste of money or not, but it's
essentially come out with exactly the same thing that the NDIS review has
around task force management.
I think it was just that a certain person in government wasn't happy that
(42:52):
there was so much pushback on independent, well, people being able to
remain self-managed and being able to manage their own funding.
It's stank of trying to control people is essentially what that was, but
I'm very excited to see the recommendations from Natalie Wade and the
rest of the registration task force, which actually starts pushing onus on
care support workers to start doing professional development, start
(43:16):
actually having a baseline sort of understanding rather than it going,
oh, I've done the orientation module, so I'm good.
Yeah, I've read a book.
Well, my friend told me how to do it, so I'm going to do it.
And the amount of times we have them come to us, oh, so how do I write my
invoice?
(43:37):
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Oh, that one annoys me.
I'm sorry, are you kidding me?
We're not a video podcast, but if anyone could see my face right now.
I think if anyone could see all of our faces right now.
We're not moving video.
But we do push back a lot on participants and support coordinators
(43:59):
with regards to selected care support, because at the end of the day, we
are bringing the care support in under our banner.
We expect the care support to have their insurance.
We expect the care support to have their experience, and they need to have
a yellow card.
They need to be approved to work within the NDIS to come in under our banner.
And from a rate perspective, legally, we can't tell care support what they
(44:21):
can and can't charge, but we will be very, very verbal with our
participants to say, we think you're getting ripped off.
We think you need to negotiate on your hours that they're putting down, on
the rates they're putting down.
Your carers need to have a break during the day as well.
So if you're going on an STA and the carer is charging, you know, 24 hours a
day for seven days in a row, where's their break?
(44:44):
Where's their rest?
Because apparently it works.
Everyone's sleeping in the same sort of apartment area.
Exactly.
There's so many overlapping issues that I'm pretty sure that we can go down
this torrent for quite a while.
I don't know why I definitely can, because Hannah and I have had a similar
conversation around independence versus providers and negotiating.
(45:07):
And then even like small providers as companies or independents going, no,
I'm not going to negotiate with you.
Yeah.
It's quite a joke, really.
Like I've said it before and I'll keep on hampering, the biggest thing,
failure that the agency and the government have done, this entire thing,
(45:28):
is call it a pricing, well, was it the price guide with a maximum limit?
No.
And failing to provide a recommended retail price like every other wholesale
market in industry world.
Yep.
I agree.
When Big W go bring in a new stock, they get told by the manufacturer what
(45:53):
the recommendation price is.
Usually on some box somewhere there will be a little thing that says
recommended retail price is this.
And whether or not Big W sort of go with that or sort of push it up,
it's based on what their internal decision is.
But then at least us as consumers can go, oh, this is recommended at $55,
(46:15):
they're actually charging $63.
Is this value of money or do I jump on EPSI or...?
Honestly, if I was doing an RRP based on our average cost for people to do
STAs with us, we're looking at $400 to $500 a day,
inclusive of your accommodation, your care, your equipment, your transfers.
(46:36):
Not $2,000.
If it comes to $500 a day, we charge $500 a day, not $2,000.
This is where we need to break down a lot of the providers,
and I say to people all the time, tell them to explain to you why they're
charging that much.
The biggest concern that I have in that area is where people don't
understand budgeting in the first place or don't have support to
(47:01):
understand budgeting.
That's where the real concern sort of starts to highlight.
But that's not necessarily when why people...
People don't go flat self-manage unless they're kind of able to
understand it as a functionality.
But then the question is, how does the agency assess that,
which I also think is kind of been addressed in the registration
(47:24):
task force with now having people that want to stay self-managed look
at having to go through a registration process with themselves,
which for anyone listening isn't like a registration provider order.
It's a lot more self-taught, a lot of light touch, and a lot less
rigorous there.
So it's not a full-on magnifying glass investigation looking at you,
(47:46):
but it's more ensuring the ability that you're able to manage that
funding appropriately and pay bills.
So I do hear quite a lot of participants that are self-managed,
kind of almost provider shopping or jumping from provider to provider,
but getting supports, but then not necessarily paying.
(48:08):
And then there's no recourse for that support to claim that money back
in an easy manner without having spent quite a lot of money on legal
to ensure that service agreements are able to be then taken to court.
And then the question is, is the money that you've done for that couple
of weeks worth of service actually enough to justify going down that
(48:31):
process in the first place?
Because that can be very costly.
Very true.
Michelle, I heard a rumour in STA about STAs that people couldn't use
STA funding to go interstate, but I now think that you've kind of
(48:53):
answered that in the idea of holiday versus respite and that what we're
shifting to is that it's not, like people with disabilities can still go
on holidays, but they have to pay for them like everybody else has to.
Right.
Absolutely.
(49:14):
Except for those extra bits that have to do with, directly to do with
their disability.
Versus, so if you did go interstate, that's more looking like a holiday.
Whereas if you go to respite, you know, nearer to where you live, that
(49:36):
sort of looks less sus.
Look, it depends.
When we started five years ago, respite, the place you went on respite had
to be a hundred kilometres from where you lived.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So, that made it hard when people wanted to be within the vicinity of
(49:57):
their normal medical offices or things like that where they knew if they
got a bladder infection, they could go straight to their doctor that they
knew the doctor had the information.
So, that's where we started was the 100 kilometre distance.
And don't ask me where I found that.
I can't remember where that was.
But now we're in a situation where if you do respite, the purpose for respite
(50:23):
obviously have the right.
So, yeah, generally you can stay within the vicinity.
If you are choosing to go further from home, it has to be to achieve a goal
that cannot be achieved within the vicinity of home.
So, again, it comes down to people using their words, people thinking
about, gosh, I'd love to do this.
I've always wanted to do this before I had my accident, I used to do this.
(50:46):
Or before I had my accident, I always had a goal to do this.
Put it in your plan.
Spell out what in your life you want to do.
And if it can't be achieved close to home, where can it be achieved and why
can it be achieved?
And put it in your plan.
So, you know, a lot of people in rural areas can't achieve a lot of the
(51:07):
things that they want to do in that home.
And a lot of it could be coming down to, you know, I've heard about this,
you know, exercise physiologist that does neurophysiology and, you know, if
I go and see them, I might get function of my hand back.
Okay, well, then put it in your plan and look at matching the STA with
attending that neurologist and trying to have a difference.
(51:30):
Match it with the exercise physiologist.
Match it with the goal to put your feet in the water at the beach and see
what it feels like.
Like, there's so many different things that people can really think about that
can go into their plans, you know, but it has to be away from, if they're
travelling away from home, they're travelling interstate, it has to be
something they cannot achieve in their state.
(51:51):
Same with international.
If people want to go and travel internationally, there has to be a very
good reason for the LAC and the plan writers to accept international in
your plan or respite and it must be something that cannot be achieved in
Australia.
So, Disney's thrown that for a lot of the Disney fans out there because
(52:13):
we've now got the cruise ships, but then Bill Shorten's just thrown it again
saying you can't have a cruise ship, even though a cruise ship is a much
cheaper option than a group home in Logan, like $5,500 cheaper.
But anyway, thanks, Bill Shorten.
I'd love to have that conversation.
I'd like to touch a very interesting topic.
Sam Pryor raised this in the Reasonable and Necessary podcast, as in what's
(52:35):
the actual difference between having that support in a group home versus
having exactly the same support on a floating accommodation?
Or let's say what's the difference between a Gold Coast high-rise versus a
cruise ship?
If it's still meeting the needs, meeting the goals, meeting the ability
(52:59):
and within the rules, what's the difference between the physical location
and why?
You're getting your community participation.
You're getting your accommodation.
You're getting your meals included.
On most occasions, they've got the equipment on board if you need it or
they work with people like us to put the equipment on board.
They've got nursing support.
(53:20):
What's that?
You've got nursing support on staff.
Nursing support.
You've got doctors on board.
You've got everything on board you need.
A cruise ship is so much better than a group home in Logan or a hotel on the
Gold Coast than anything, and it is so feasible.
So I was blown away with that comment.
I totally get the group that was promoting it in the wrong form.
(53:42):
Let's go have a big party on a cruise ship as a big group.
No, that's OK.
I get that.
But if somebody's got a specific goal that they wish to achieve and it's
cheaper and more feasible than going anywhere else, then do it.
You know, we've also got the debate about international.
If people are travelling international, they're paying their own flights,
(54:06):
right?
The accommodation, care support and equipment hire in most international
countries is considerably lower than our country.
Considerably.
So they, again, are saving on their core funding by not spending that
maximum allowance per day.
They just happen to be doing it in another country.
But someone turned to me and said, yeah, but then that money is going out of
(54:28):
our country.
The money is not staying in the businesses in Australia.
But tell me how somebody can get an allowance for $15,000 to $20,000 for a
specialised wheelchair that's made in Switzerland.
Where is it different?
Where is the difference?
The money is still going to an Australian company like my STA or like that, you
(54:50):
know, AIDA care or country care or whatever, but the equipment is coming from
China or from Switzerland.
It's still going overseas.
How is it any different with people travelling internationally to achieve major
goals, see family that they can't come here or to have these experiences?
Like, you know, we've got people that love archaeology and everything.
(55:12):
They want to go and see an actual site that's not Winston, you know, in
Queensland to go and see dinosaur bones.
I don't want to see dinosaur bones.
I want to see pyramids, you know, but they can't achieve the goal because Bill
Shorten's told them they're not allowed to go overseas.
So where is the difference between a cruise ship in a hotel on the Gold Coast or
international and a group home in Logan?
(55:34):
Logan's getting a slam from me at the moment.
The problem with cruise ships from my understanding is really just the optics.
And that frustrates me because, you know, the NDIS is already a bit up a creek
(55:57):
when it comes to optics.
So like far out, why pick on cruise ships?
It's so stupid.
Michelle, you sort of did raise that point that if I was in those shoes, in
Bill Shorten's shoes and looking at why I'm saying this, it's not because I want
(56:20):
to stop people from going on cruises.
It's because I want to stop people charging a shit ton of money for something
that they're not paying a lot of money for.
Oh, yeah.
Like, I'm sure you've done some cost analysis onto these versus paying full
rate and based on how you're saying about $500 a day, you've gone well and truly
(56:44):
overboard on cost analysis, business performance, business sustainability from
a commercial decision, which is really important as a business owner.
Yeah, I'd be a lot more surprised if I did what everybody else did, but I can't.
From an integrity perspective, I just can't.
The margins are phenomenal.
(57:06):
Yeah.
And then if you're not putting, if everyone's staying in the same room,
brings it down even more.
And that would be the main reason if I was in Bill Shorten's shoes as to why I
would be pushing this.
Yeah.
So that's when you drill down on all the providers again.
And I welcome an audit of all providers.
(57:29):
I encourage it.
You know, I just think everybody needs to take a good, hard look at themselves.
What they're charging, why they're charging, how they're charging, is it
reasonable and necessary?
You know, because like I said, I could be making a mozza right now if I was
charging what the NDIS guidelines said I can.
But from an integrity perspective, I just can't do it.
(57:52):
You know, and you look at the margins, look at, you know, care agencies.
We'll go back to them.
They might charge the top amount, the $67.56, but they're only charging or
paying their staff like $30.
So their margins are huge, right?
I understand businesses have to make margins.
Businesses have to make profits.
But let's all be fair and reasonable.
(58:13):
And at the end of the day, as a business owner, I'm a taxpaying person as well.
I'm not going to rip off the government, which are my taxpaying dollars as well.
So I think everybody needs to stop and think about that too.
I think it would be a very different marketplace if everyone was required to
(58:36):
give their profit percentage margins.
Oh, yeah.
It would be very interesting to see what happens.
I would not only that, like actually as part of audit or registration, that
being public, the outcome of your audit process in the first place, being
publicly available would be interesting.
But then understanding...
(58:58):
Companies, wouldn't we?
Oh, well, look, I'm pretty sure I've got some people going, shut up, Sam.
But it's the point.
Like how do providers that actually take this stuff real seriously want to have a
financially viable business, but then have to compete with big corporates that
(59:20):
are pushing 40, 50, 60% profit margins, or jumping in the sector with big
investor money and pushing quite a lot to get essentially those margin points,
and then how is that fair for us as taxpayers going, with our money going
into this?
It's very interesting conversations.
(59:42):
Oh, it really is, and I think I'll upset too many more people if I keep talking.
On that note, it's probably a good time to ask our final question.
Okay.
In your ideal world, what would the future of the NDIS look like?
That's a hard question.
I think at the end of the day, we just get back to what it's about, and that's
(01:00:04):
improving lives.
Let's look at people who truly require support.
Let's look at people that can live a more fulfilling, supported life with
providers that are fair and reasonable.
I think that's what my ideal vision of the NDIS is.
(01:00:25):
It's having the right people look after the right people.
Does that sound weird?
No, that's a great response.
It's the most simplest response I think we've had to date, if I'm not mistaken,
Hannah.
I think it encapsulates the idea really, really well.
Yeah.
Let's all just look after each other.
That's it.
Support each other and make life better for everyone.
(01:00:48):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Thanks, Hannah.
Thanks, Sam.
It's been great joining you.
Thanks for that little tangent that you sent me down.
That was great.
Mind you, I feel like I'm going on a tangent every second podcast at the moment.
You either love me or hate me about it.
I knew there'd be something I'd be able to poke you with, Sam.
(01:01:09):
It's like, okay, what can I get him on?
Oh, there's lots.
There's lots.
But yeah, thank you so much, Michelle.
It's been an absolute pleasure having this chat and your candour and just the sort of
your concepts and how you built your business and your philosophies behind it as well is
really wonderful to hear.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I love what I do and I love changing lives.
(01:01:32):
Awesome.
All right.
Until next time.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you for listening.
Please share with people you know.
Until next time, as the Green Brothers say, don't forget to be awesome.
We acknowledge the original owners of the land on which we podcast, whose stories were told for thousands of years.
(00:08):
Today we are recording in Mianjin. We pay our respects to elders past and present who may be listening.
Sovereignty was never ceded.
A quick note before we get started that there may be some swearing in today's podcast.
If you don't like swearing or usually listen with children in the car, you have been warned.
(00:31):
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Thanks again to Astalti for sponsoring today's episode.
Guys, gals, non-binary pals, welcome to this week's episode.
I'm so glad you're here.
This week we have Michelle, who runs a travel agent for people with disabilities.
She discussed with us the changes happening in the STA space.
(01:43):
This chat took place a while ago before we knew what the new legislation was going to say.
I wanted to release it anyway because I love Michelle's passion for this part of the NDIS space.
There is still heaps of useful information and this chat offers an insight into the impacts the changes to STA will have on participants and providers.
(02:08):
Thanks a ton for listening and I'll see you around.
Hi Sam, how are you going?
I'm really good thanks, how are you?
Yeah, I'm doing well, but I'm also a bit confused about a lot of the rules changes.
(02:30):
And so today on the podcast, we have Michelle, who is an STA provider here to talk about what's been happening and changing in that space.
Welcome Michelle.
Thank you, thanks for having me. Hi Sam, hi Hannah.
(02:51):
Hi Michelle, great to have you.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
So as we always start, where did you grow up?
I actually am born and bred on the Gold Coast, so one of the few that actually stays here.
But growing up, it was pretty much 50-50 Gold Coast and Hamilton Island.
Yeah, my mother did the uniforms on the island, so we were always up there running them up.
(03:17):
And then most holidays in Victoria as well.
So it was a bit of a spread about grow up, you know, Gold Coast, Melbourne, Hamilton.
So I got to love the country from a young age.
Oh wow, that's so interesting.
And so what brought you to the disability sector?
It was kind of a light bulb moment, I suppose.
(03:41):
I've always grown up around disability, so to me it's never really been anything different for me.
You know, I have a cousin who is paraplegic.
I've got an uncle who's got cerebral palsy, another cousin that's Down syndrome.
You know, it's just to me disability wasn't any different.
It was just, you know, sometimes they sat more than I did.
(04:03):
That's pretty much it for me, you know.
And then as I got older, more friends unfortunately ended up with paralysis.
So I suppose as I got older, I started really listening and seeing, you know,
people's complaints and issues following disabilities, following injuries.
(04:24):
But to be honest, my cousin that was paralysed that I grew up with from a young age,
he actually was a pretty famous Paralympian.
So he was a captain of the, which is important to talk about during the Paralympics at the moment.
That's exciting.
So he was captain of the Australian basketball team, wheelchair basketball team,
(04:46):
and they ended up winning gold at the Olympics.
That's so cool.
I know, he did so well.
He went on to make huge differences in Australia,
going around making sure that workplaces were adapting for people to be able to go back into the workplace after injury,
making sure the governments were really looking at their parks and their government buildings
(05:10):
that they were accessible for people in chairs to be able to go into.
So I've gone up with Sandy.
Sandy Blythe is his name for people that know the Paralympians
so that a lot of people would know his name.
You know, he's such a huge character and so inspiring.
But then a few years ago we got a phone call and he had taken his life.
(05:33):
And it was such a shock to the family that somebody that was such a giant in our eyes,
such a champion in our eyes could actually go down that path.
And we later found out that, you know, he had his own struggles, you know, from a health perspective,
but from a mental health perspective, it was that concern that what are Australians doing?
(05:57):
Is anybody stepping up and making a difference?
Is life going to get any easier or any better or are we just going to continue to struggle
and, you know, not have enough attention paid to us?
And so from that moment, I decided, you know, I wanted to continue Sandy's legacy and making a difference.
But I really, really wanted to make sure we stopped this cycle of people taking their lives after injury
(06:22):
and stop the, you know, some of the most important people in our society from thinking that nobody cares,
that nobody's there to make a difference.
And for me and from growing up, travel's always been amazing for my mental health.
And you look at all the research that's done and why, you know, when you're working for companies,
(06:43):
you're given holiday leave because you have to have that mental health break.
But so do people with disabilities, you know, and 20% of our population have some form of disability.
They deserve to be able to travel too.
And, you know, from all my experience being in the tourism industry, seeing the difficulties they go through,
I realised pretty quickly that there's nobody out there that really does what I do to be able to help them.
(07:10):
So I did my research, I looked into options, and I thought finally I found something that can help with Sandy's legacy
in making a difference whilst also boosting mental health and hopefully reducing the amount of people
that make that horrible decision, that horrible sacrifice to take their lives.
So, sorry, that went a bit deeper than I think you probably expected.
(07:32):
No, that's a really heartfelt story and a really strong, and you can see the influence that that's had
in your decision making and your advocacy and your passion as well.
So thank you so much for sharing.
Of course.
So tell us a little bit about what it is you do now.
You do travel and some STAs, so tell us a little bit about that and how it works.
(07:57):
Well, after doing my research, I found that a lot of people I know were told that they could do STAs,
but they were told they had to go to these group homes in the middle of Logan or in some suburban house
with dogs and cats and lots of other people, and they felt like they were being grouped together
(08:19):
or packed in together and pushed aside, which is a common feeling for people with disabilities.
They always feel like they're being shoved aside or pushed aside to just do what they're told.
So what I did is with my research, I'm like, OK, well, group homes work for certain people,
but for some people, especially neurodivergent, they cannot be in these homes.
(08:41):
So what can I do as a solution?
And I looked at, you know, like the Saagoods and the Spinal Life cans.
Actually, Spinal Life didn't exist at that time, but, you know, I loved the Saagood method,
but it was so expensive.
I couldn't get my head around why that venue was charging so much money.
So looking at that, I'm like, OK, well, we can we know what to look for for accessible accommodation.
(09:05):
We know the right contacts for care support, for nursing support.
If people want to be able to travel, but if they're peg fed or if they need bounce support in the morning
or, you know, wound care whilst traveling, we need to be able to connect them with the right nursing support
or care support that can assist with that continuation of lifestyle.
You know, and then there's the accessible transport, there's the accessible equipment that they might need.
(09:29):
We basically looked at a general model for like worst case scenario, you know, high level disability,
nonverbal, peg fed, and we thought, OK, how would we make this work?
And then we looked at the neurodivergent model and we looked at, you know, the sort of site model
or the legally blind, and we really established every single person in the market to see what would work
(09:51):
and how we can make everything fit for them.
And so that's how we came up with our STA model with looking after accommodation, care support, equipment,
higher nursing care, consumables if they're needed, accessible transport, accessible goals and activities
as long as they meet the plans.
So it was quite intensive, but at the same time, it was really important to me to make sure we manage people's budgets effectively.
(10:18):
So rather than barging into the market as a NDIS STA provider, we actually came in as a travel agent.
So we went and got all our assessments done and everything with the Australian Travel Association.
So we are an accredited travel agent, we're cruise ship accredited, not that it matters now, Bill Shorten's changes.
(10:44):
And we have our IATA as well, so International Airfares.
So, you know, we've gone down that avenue, which not only makes us accredited and authorised to book accommodation,
so you think short term accommodation, we are actually authorised to do that.
And we stick to the Australian Travel Agency rules and requirements to be able to do that.
(11:06):
But it also means we stick to the funding method and funding program that travel agents do.
Instead of going, OK, we're going to do a package, but we're going to charge this total amount because the NDIS tells us we can,
we charge what the actual amount is.
And there is a big gap there. And that's something we really pride ourselves in with what we do with short term accommodation.
(11:28):
That's awesome. I love this so much.
Coming. That's why initially when you said, oh, where you grew up, I was like, oh, that's so interesting because that seems to relate to what happens next.
And you becoming a travel agent and because you grew up going everywhere and travelling and getting a bit of a travel bug yourself, I'm guessing.
(12:01):
And I'm excited that you went down the path of being an accredited travel agent first.
And we're like, this is how the way around. We want to be able to do this.
That's so exciting.
And then thinking about all the other things that go into travelling when you have a disability and almost a massive entourage in the sense of,
(12:34):
you know, like you said, if you're peg fed or you need bowel care or whatever it is, I really think that's awesome.
Thank you. It helps to know your market.
And to add to it, another thing that I pride myself in and that was really important to me was employing staff with lived experience and breaking the barrier.
(13:00):
I know it was a big, big important factor for Dylan Olcott was getting people back into the workplace.
So not long after starting my business five or so years ago, I ended up hiring a lovely gentleman by the name of Brett.
And he is quadriplegic. And, you know, we had other able bodied staff during COVID.
We got smashed. So I had to re-evaluate the staffing situation and we let go a lot of the staff.
(13:26):
But the only person that I wanted to keep a hold of was Brett because he worked harder than everybody else and he knew what requirements were needed.
And so just having that lived experience and that knowledge just well outweighed all the other staff that I had.
So they all unfortunately left and he stayed and he's still with me today.
(13:48):
That's so cool.
We took a bit of a similar approach with our model.
So we try and ensure that our percentage of people with a lived experience or people with a disability are at a higher margin.
So we've kind of got it at about 65 per cent. We're kind of there, not quite fully there.
We're about 50-50.
We're at the neurodivergent, but I think pushes everybody up a little bit.
(14:13):
But I don't think many people accept that they're neurodivergent.
100 per cent. Well, I take up 25 per cent of that 50.
And then we've got another ladder in our business that came up.
I saw looking on one of the NDIS groups going, I've got this kind of qualification case. This is what I'm doing at school.
I'd love to get a job, anyone willing to help and have a conversation with them.
(14:36):
And the best interview I think I've conducted to date, just draw dropping in some of the responses.
Both my business partner and myself were thoroughly impressed.
And to date, we're still saying that's the best decision we've ever made today.
But I really do want to sort of touch base on that kind of scoping out the market and your participant base
(14:58):
and really drilling down into the individual needs of each kind of disability.
When you sort of have done that, how beneficial has that been in managing risks moving forward on an individual participant level?
Because we did similar things with our event program at All Access Pass,
(15:21):
where we were looking very heavily at making every event inclusive
and looking at how we do high care bowel therapy on a greenfield event site and stuff like that.
So we haven't actually fully run, had the ability to fully run that.
And right now, everything's on hold, unfortunately, with everything that's happening in the sector.
But I'd really love to hear that deep dive that you did at the start, looking at how each disability's need
(15:48):
and then how that sort of assisted and made things moving forward on a risk management and a continuity of support planning side.
I mean, from the beginning, we've always known we've had to do that.
I started off with some business partners before, and during COVID, I bought them out,
which was the best decision I've ever made in my life because I'm a bit of a control freak.
(16:14):
Nothing wrong with that.
I know. OCD, you know. But they had a bit of know-how in the area as well.
So we knew exactly what questions to ask when it came to really identifying risks and I think learned experience.
You know, we're not perfect. And at the beginning, when you start a business, you're going to make mistakes
(16:35):
and you learn along the way. And, you know, with the suggestion of the bowel care, for instance, you know,
we had one person saying, that's OK, and we've got carers that can do that.
But then from a legality perspective, which we learnt down the track, well, actually, no, carers shouldn't be doing that.
It's a nurse that should be doing that.
So unless carers have been specifically trained by a nursing company and been accredited by a nursing company,
(17:01):
they can't do it because of the risk associated with something as high level as bowel care.
And, you know, then we've got the nursing companies that are saying, yeah, we can do it,
but we're going to charge you a minimum three or four hours.
And this really starts to chew down into the core funding or the funding for the STA.
And it's something I don't know if the decision makers in the NDIS have fully accepted or recognised.
(17:30):
So, you know, something like that is where we have to talk to the participant and say, OK,
right now, this is going to chew down different areas of your package.
So we're going to have to re-evaluate this type of accommodation you're saying in and what's included and what's out of pocket.
But what we're going to do is work with you on your plan for the next plan that you do to get you a alternate funding method
(17:53):
to make sure that you've got extra care support included or extra nursing included,
which will add on top of the actual cap amount that the NDIS allow.
So it's really working with people and their plans to make sure that they've got every little element outlined
for their next plan to have it included.
Another area where we had a bit of a hiccup once, and, you know, I won't mention names,
(18:18):
but we had a participant that was neurodivergent and we were told, yep, they're fine.
Barely anyone will notice, you know, they'll just get in and do their thing and then leave.
What we weren't told was some bipolar behaviour that might occur.
And had we been warned about that, we would have been able to pre-warm this.
(18:41):
We had them in a specialised group home, which was amazing, but they weren't pre-warned about this behaviour.
And unfortunately, she was triggered whilst in the accommodation and police got involved
and it was, neighbours got involved and it was a bit nasty.
So, you know, in that circumstance, we were told that she didn't have enough funding
(19:03):
to pay for a carer to be with her the whole time.
So they're like, look, we'll get the carer from this time to this time
and then we'll trust in the house to be OK with caring her.
But it just wasn't.
So that again comes down to all these changes with the NDIS that we just announced last week
and how much allocated care support people should be having on STA.
(19:27):
And it's like, look, I understand that when they're at home in the safety of their own home
and their own environment, they might only get care support three or four hours a day, if that.
But when they're outside and there's potential triggers
and there's different scenarios that are presented to them,
they do need to have a carer with them a lot longer.
We need to protect not only them, but society and people around them.
(19:52):
Because from a neurodivergent perspective, if there's a trigger that sets them off
and the carer or the safe person isn't there, we've got a big problem.
And that's a bigger picture mental health problem that the NDIS have to recognise.
So can you start to describe, I know this will be a bit tricky,
(20:15):
but start to describe some of the changes that have come out for STA?
Where do I start? There are so many changes.
Look, STA is always, I think they're just really knuckling down on what it was meant to be from the start
and trying to get back to that.
So the purpose of an STA, so short-term accommodation, is for participants to be able to have respite.
(20:40):
So it was always respite.
So what it was was for the participant themselves to be able to leave their comforts of their home
and their normal supports being their informal and their formal supports,
and go away for a while and just have a break from their day-to-day life and from those people,
whilst also giving those people a break.
Generally what they would do is they would take that person
(21:02):
and they would almost be a qualified level of disability to be able to have that respite.
So being more your high-level disabilities or high-care disabilities that need to be supported
to be able to go away and, yeah, just escape.
Otherwise, on the occasions where an informal support became really sick
(21:23):
or care companies became sick or didn't have enough carers to look after them,
then they were qualified to go into a respite again.
What we've seen is the boundaries start to get pushed and shoved and amended,
and STAs turn into something to achieve major goals.
So if somebody's like, well, it's always been my goal to go to Disney.
(21:47):
I love Disney. I'm obsessed with Disney.
Everything in my house is Disney. I've got to go Disney, Disney, Disney, Disney.
So if it's in their plan, they were able to then go to Disney or go overseas
because it was qualified.
However, what they're doing now is they're really drilling back down on what STA
and what experiences are qualified and not qualified and where you live.
So let's say you live, I don't know, Karnamalla in the middle of Australia, right?
(22:13):
And you desperately need to attend exercise physiology to be able to support your growth
and your training, or you desperately need to be able to see a podiatrist or something
that isn't at Karnamalla.
Then you qualify to be able to go on an STA as well to travel to a place where you can have
those supports and then travel back again.
So I think in essence what they're doing is making sure that people can still do that,
(22:37):
but it's got to be in their plan.
So if they have in their plan that they need to be able to give their informal supports a break
or they need to be able to themselves have a break from their day to day,
then put the respite in there and you're entitled to up to 28 days.
If you have a major goal, we are telling everybody, put your goals down in your plan.
(22:59):
Everybody should be going through that with their plan writers anyway.
But a lot of people just keep it basic.
They're like, oh, I don't want to be a fast, I don't want to bother anybody
or seem like I'm asking for everything.
I'm sorry, but if you're not going to ask for it and if you're not going to talk about how your life
is going to be improved, you won't have any improvements.
The NDIS isn't going to help you.
(23:20):
The NDIS is here to help you live a better life and live a more fulfilled life
following injury or following diagnosis.
So use your words.
It's as simple as that. Use your words.
I think that's some great advice.
So with these kind of changes, it kind of then brings back the onus on each provider then
(23:41):
to understand how they have eligibility for access criteria.
So this is something that generally I've found as an industry, we fail to really look at appropriately,
even more so in this space with STAs as well.
So how have you sort of taken or started to look at eligibility from a participant level,
(24:07):
how you communicate that and then how you assess as well?
Because it's all well and good for me to go, I'm a participant, I have an NDIS plan,
I've got money sitting here, I want to go on an STA.
But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm eligible.
And this is part of the Wild West that we've seen over the last 10 years is providers sort of just more and more
(24:32):
push that boundaries, let's do some real, like, mind you, some of the stuff we've seen
and some of the overseas stuff is cool, but is cool and necessary and reasonable support
is also a very interesting question.
And I know there's some very good arguments on both sides of the fence in this world.
(24:56):
But then it comes down to ensure that providers don't push participants into financial risk
because we're also seeing legislation in or ability within the legislation for NDIS
to actually personally go after a participant for that money.
There's also some sort of side of things that if then a participant can't actually pay that in the thing,
(25:17):
which means the provider doesn't get paid, which means then the provider has to personally go
that participant and the family for that to get that money back for the supports that have been provided.
Which ultimately comes back down to how do we make sure that we're providing support to those participants
that are actually eligible for it in the first place?
(25:38):
It is really tough, really tough.
And I do not like asking people to share their plans with me.
But it's gotten to the point where we have to see people's plans.
We have to see their goals and we have to sit down and really drill down with them what their goals are,
what they're wanting to achieve and how it's reasonable and necessary.
(25:59):
So we do have an eligibility section in regards to that.
If people are self-managed, we have to trust in what they tell us
and we get them to fill in documents and sign it to say this is their choice.
As a person living with disabilities, this is their choice.
They have told us X, Y, Z and then that's what we're going to go ahead with.
(26:22):
But we also have a clause in our service agreement and also in our communication with people.
Should the NDIS decline funding, you have to pay this out of pocket.
So we make it clear to them, we are doing everything for you.
We work for you to help you achieve your goals.
But at the end of the day, if the funding doesn't happen from an NDIS perspective, you're responsible.
(26:46):
So they do understand that and it's just about clear, transparent communication with them.
If they're plan managed, we really rely on the participant, the support coordinator and also the plan manager
to make sure everybody along the way has approved the decision that we are moving forward
to be able to achieve the goals for the participant.
(27:09):
We have in full transparency been called out once.
It was actually a few months ago where we had the direction from the participant,
approval from the support coordinator, seen the plan and had approval from the plan manager.
So everything was approved.
They went on their respite.
The issues with the NDIS and the situation with the NDIS changed.
(27:34):
The rules and requirements changed.
And all of a sudden, the lack turned around and said, no, not funding it.
After everybody had approved, service agreements were signed.
So now us as a provider are sitting there and we're saying, who's paying?
They had signed that they would fund it themselves if the NDIS disagreed,
but they're still fighting with the NDIS over it because everybody had approved.
(27:57):
So this is the biggest issue for providers is that we do everything we're told to do from the NDIS.
We do everything we're told from the team of supports for a participant, yet this can still happen.
Yeah, it's something that I've heard happening quite a lot is the comments from providers that go,
(28:19):
oh, yeah, I've had invoices flagged and we're not too sure why.
And it really does seem quite a bit of a wild west in recent months.
Also kind of seems like the agency and LACs are free emptying.
And one of our most more recent news podcasts that were recorded,
(28:41):
we had a conversation around the following day after the act changed,
they've re-updated plans to kind of already start mimicking stuff that's come out of the legislation
and change up the whole entire space.
But it's had that feel for about a half of the last 12 months even,
that the agency is taking everything very rogue and starting to implement preempting what government
(29:08):
and co-design and everything is meant to do and start putting more and more layers
without being transparent on what those layers are, how those layers interact,
and the real risk to both provider feasibility and participant financial stability.
Because as you said, they're signing off it.
(29:30):
But the agency is then putting that person at a financial risk by not being clear with the support coordinators,
being clear with the plan managers, and then with the LAC.
And I'm not actually, yeah, the kind of line or the thought pattern kind of has a real egotistical
(29:52):
where controlling the purse, but it's your plan to do with how you want within the flexible funding arrangements
and all of that.
And then God help us once these new framework plans come out where it's just an open sort of,
well, allegedly openly flexible, but all with this co-design that we're still very uncertain about WTF is happening.
(30:17):
I think there's too much confusion across the whole field.
We've had letters from LACs and letters from the NDIA saying what is STA and what is an STA,
and they're all contradicting.
And I think that, well, if the NDIS, if everybody on the top level of the NDIS don't understand,
(30:39):
then how are the rest of us meant to understand?
So it's got to start from the top.
Like anything, it has to start from the top.
So I love what Bill Shorten's done.
I love what he's come out with.
And I hope we get rid of a lot of these cowboys out there that have been ripping people off,
taking the mickey and doing the wrong thing.
Let's get rid of the cowboys.
Let's get back to business.
And let's look at how we can achieve goals for the participants.
(31:01):
So at the end of the day, STA is a huge space for mental health, not just for the participant,
but for the informal supports and formal supports as well.
I've had so many parents at breaking point, like dangerous breaking point,
where they might end up on the news if we don't get these kids or these adults out of their house immediately.
(31:25):
That's what we do.
We do a lot of work with domestic violence as well, where we get people out really quickly.
And it's about having providers that we can take people and get them into the right situation
with approval from the NDIS and support from the NDIS in the right methods,
whilst also saving their court funding and their budget, keeping it reasonable and necessary.
(31:47):
And I think let's get rid of the ones that automatically charge the high level amounts.
Let's work with the care support agencies that are, look,
I understand everybody is entitled to a minimum number of hours, but it's getting ridiculous.
If a participant only needs support for one or two hours a day, why are we being charged 16 hours?
(32:09):
Let's get down to what is actually needed and provided to a participant.
And these great homes that are charging one to one care when there's one to four, sorry, let's clean that up.
That's where we get frustrated and we see it happening.
Even the group tours that we see happening, you know, we've had people do big group tours to Bathurst,
(32:30):
charging one to one when they've got a whole busload of participants and four carers.
That's not acceptable.
So the NDIS has to clean this up, clean up those traders and then make sure we're looking after participants.
And then people will have more choice when it's not getting ripped off as much or when, you know,
I've got competitors out there that are like, the NDIS will give you a free holiday
(32:53):
and you're getting flights and theme parks and hotels and all this stuff.
And it's like, no, no, you can't do that. Stop advertising that.
Like, come on. And that was part of the letter that we all got was stop advertising what's not included
and drill down on what is.
If the participants checking into a hotel at 2pm or a house at 2pm, checking out at 10,
(33:19):
that's not 24 hours worth of care support.
So it should not be that top line amount that is the maximum that can be charged.
So 100%.
You know, but my problem with the letter, it did come out saying about care support, you know,
how if they're going into an STA, the care support should not be charging more hours
(33:40):
than what that participant normally gets in their normal day-to-day life at home.
That I do disagree with to a degree because it depends on the participant.
If the participant is neurodivergent and could pose a risk to them and society,
I'm sorry, they do need extra care outside of their normal home.
If it is somebody that doesn't, absolutely.
Two hours, three hours care support a day, no worries.
(34:04):
The other interesting one is around, like, if you're doing more, if you're going on a holiday,
you're generally doing more throughout a day than you would on any given day.
Like on a night of five, I'm at home in front of my desk, in the office,
going out seeing clients versus if I'm on a holiday, I'm going out looking at sightseeing.
(34:27):
Not that I really care about the whole sightseeing stuff or the touristy thing,
but I'm out, I'm in the community, I'm going looking at shops, I'm going to restaurants,
I'm lounging around a bar, doing lots of different things.
That if I had a disability or I needed support to do those things,
that would then constitute a higher or a higher amount of support hours
(34:49):
than I would on a night of five, on any given day at home.
Yeah, 100%.
And this is, like, specifically with the letter that we got,
you probably saw it as well, the holidays.
So you've got STA for respite, you've got STA for goals,
but then you've got holidays, right?
Holidays are not funded by the NDIS, but what is funded by the NDIS,
(35:14):
if you choose to go on a holiday with your family or with friends,
they will cover your equipment higher that you might need.
So let's say you're travelling and you don't want to fly with your shower commode,
or you're going to need a high-load bed or a hoist or something.
So that will be covered.
Your care support in location will be covered,
but the NDIS is anticipating that if you're going on a holiday,
(35:36):
you'll get a carer from that location.
So let's say you go on a holiday at Cairns,
then you get the carer in Cairns to come and look after you,
not necessarily take a carer with you, right?
If you're staying in accommodation and it's a standard accommodation room
is $200 a night, but the wheelchair-accessible room is $250,
the NDIS is saying they'll consider paying a $50 gap.
(35:59):
So that's the biggest change that's come out from a holiday.
Previously, they went, no holidays, nothing gets funded.
Now they've come out saying, look, care support, equipment higher,
and gaps that are specific to your disability can get covered.
You've just got to be really clear with what that gap is.
So providing the quotes and receipts and things like that
(36:21):
to prove that there is that gap of difference.
Even accessible vehicle hire.
If you were to hire, I don't know, I'm not very good with cards, a CX-5.
Let's say it doesn't take off, but you're going to need a wheelchair-accessible vehicle
that you can actually ride your wheelchair into,
then there's going to be a huge price gap between those two.
So the NDIS will cover the price gap.
(36:44):
So that's what we've taken from the letter.
Everybody's interpretation is different, but that's what we've taken.
So we're now telling people, actually, is this a holiday or is this STA?
You really need to be clear to us what you're doing.
Because if this is clearly a holiday, your accommodation is not going to get covered.
So we have to drill down and make sure we know exactly what's happening.
(37:07):
We've had people that are like, no, no, it's not a holiday, it's a respite.
Yet they're going and posting on social media about a holiday.
It's like, whoa, hang on a second.
That puts all of us at risk.
Yeah.
There's definitely been a very misunderstanding.
And the media has played quite a big part into this,
on the confusion between the holiday and what an STA is.
(37:30):
Because I hear quite a bit from a provider going,
I've had a family approach me to do an STA while they go up to Cairns.
We just use Cairns, sorry, Cairns.
Everybody wants to go to Cairns.
Yeah, it's a great point.
I've been through Cairns. I've done my holiday.
I've done a holiday there, definitely not an STA there.
But then again, I'm not a participant.
(37:52):
I think Cairns tourism is going to like us right now.
Hi Cairns tourism.
We'll take realties, thank you.
But yeah, so it's kind of like if the things that I get is
the family wants to go on a holiday.
They want to be able to take their family member.
But they are kind of seeing this thing that A, providers have looped into
(38:16):
the media sort of looped into and gone, oh, let's run our own STA.
And then we also hear providers, well, unfortunately,
we've seen quite a lot of providers jumping on it, doing it, as you said,
charging that full amount when A, that's not the intent of what
REST Fight ever was.
Ultimately, the key point was to give the informal errors relief
(38:39):
from the day to day.
If we're going to say it was anything, it's that.
So it's not Joe who lives independently or Sally who lives in a cell.
It's Bob that lives with his brother who provides most of the informal
supports when he doesn't have supports in the morning or evening to get
bowel therapy done.
(39:01):
Yeah, exactly right.
It's, you know, we have to give people breaks like we talked about before.
In every single workplace in this country, you legally have to give
people three to four weeks break.
So how is that any different for informal supports?
Like I said, I have seen so many families at breaking point and it is
(39:26):
not fair.
And we have a huge issue with mental health in this country.
And if we're not giving people a break, they might snap.
And that's when you see things like domestic violence happen.
Domestic violence is a huge topic in this country right now.
So let's drill down and find out exactly what is causing it.
This is one area that is causing it.
(39:48):
So yes, REST Fight should be given to every single participant on the NDIS.
I believe everybody should be entitled to a break from their informal
supports, but it must be managed properly and effectively.
The problem is the cowboys that have come out and these businesses, you
know, going back, I love carers, don't get me wrong, but I have some
(40:14):
participants that have had carers go with them on REST Fight and they're
charging the full 67 and 56 cents a day without having a yellow card,
without having their Cert 3 or Cert 4 in disability, without having three
years experience in disability, without having heavy costs like offices
or HR staff or anything like that to cover.
(40:37):
Like that 67, 56, from what I've read on the NDIS is for agencies to
charge because they've got all those hard costs and they've got to pay
the staff.
The NDIS, from my reading, states that care support, if they're
independent, their pricing should be a lot less than that.
Still covering their own costs and their own insurances and everything.
(41:00):
But how do these 19, 20-year-olds come into the market and say, oh, the
NDIS says...
Oh, don't get me started on the 18-year-olds.
Do not get me started on these 18-year-olds that come out on the
Facebook...
I'm sorry, you've got me on a point at the moment.
Yeah, you've got me.
I want to look at the fucking Facebook NDIS groups.
I've done this at school.
I did my Cert 2.
How do I become a support worker and what do I do?
(41:22):
And do I actually need this and do I need...
The fucking worst thing I've actually seen is I'm going independent.
Do I fucking need insurance?
Yes, you fucking goddamn do!
Yes, you need insurance.
Sorry, everyone else in the office or next door.
I love firing you up, Sam.
We're going to have to do this one more time.
It drives me insane.
(41:44):
I've got friends that are independent, that have started out doing their
Cert 3, going in doing some hard yards within some providers, going around
the providers and then getting frustrated with how their management
structure or lack of leadership has really impacted or lack of insight
into the participants.
And then they've gone, I really want to do a lot better for my individual
(42:06):
participants, so I'm going to step out on my own.
Not, I've come out of school and I want to charge $67 without
understanding the sector.
I might only understand some autistic nature because I have a family
member that does it.
I'm going to start hating on clients.
I am horrified by this.
(42:29):
I actually cannot be any more happier with the NDIS review task force
recommendation with Natalie Wade bringing in, and I'm not too sure if
the whole NDIS task force review was a waste of money or not, but it's
essentially come out with exactly the same thing that the NDIS review has
around task force management.
I think it was just that a certain person in government wasn't happy that
(42:52):
there was so much pushback on independent, well, people being able to
remain self-managed and being able to manage their own funding.
It's stank of trying to control people is essentially what that was, but
I'm very excited to see the recommendations from Natalie Wade and the
rest of the registration task force, which actually starts pushing onus on
care support workers to start doing professional development, start
(43:16):
actually having a baseline sort of understanding rather than it going,
oh, I've done the orientation module, so I'm good.
Yeah, I've read a book.
Well, my friend told me how to do it, so I'm going to do it.
And the amount of times we have them come to us, oh, so how do I write my
invoice?
(43:37):
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Oh, that one annoys me.
I'm sorry, are you kidding me?
We're not a video podcast, but if anyone could see my face right now.
I think if anyone could see all of our faces right now.
We're not moving video.
But we do push back a lot on participants and support coordinators
(43:59):
with regards to selected care support, because at the end of the day, we
are bringing the care support in under our banner.
We expect the care support to have their insurance.
We expect the care support to have their experience, and they need to have
a yellow card.
They need to be approved to work within the NDIS to come in under our banner.
And from a rate perspective, legally, we can't tell care support what they
(44:21):
can and can't charge, but we will be very, very verbal with our
participants to say, we think you're getting ripped off.
We think you need to negotiate on your hours that they're putting down, on
the rates they're putting down.
Your carers need to have a break during the day as well.
So if you're going on an STA and the carer is charging, you know, 24 hours a
day for seven days in a row, where's their break?
(44:44):
Where's their rest?
Because apparently it works.
Everyone's sleeping in the same sort of apartment area.
Exactly.
There's so many overlapping issues that I'm pretty sure that we can go down
this torrent for quite a while.
I don't know why I definitely can, because Hannah and I have had a similar
conversation around independence versus providers and negotiating.
(45:07):
And then even like small providers as companies or independents going, no,
I'm not going to negotiate with you.
Yeah.
It's quite a joke, really.
Like I've said it before and I'll keep on hampering, the biggest thing,
failure that the agency and the government have done, this entire thing,
(45:28):
is call it a pricing, well, was it the price guide with a maximum limit?
No.
And failing to provide a recommended retail price like every other wholesale
market in industry world.
Yep.
I agree.
When Big W go bring in a new stock, they get told by the manufacturer what
(45:53):
the recommendation price is.
Usually on some box somewhere there will be a little thing that says
recommended retail price is this.
And whether or not Big W sort of go with that or sort of push it up,
it's based on what their internal decision is.
But then at least us as consumers can go, oh, this is recommended at $55,
(46:15):
they're actually charging $63.
Is this value of money or do I jump on EPSI or...?
Honestly, if I was doing an RRP based on our average cost for people to do
STAs with us, we're looking at $400 to $500 a day,
inclusive of your accommodation, your care, your equipment, your transfers.
(46:36):
Not $2,000.
If it comes to $500 a day, we charge $500 a day, not $2,000.
This is where we need to break down a lot of the providers,
and I say to people all the time, tell them to explain to you why they're
charging that much.
The biggest concern that I have in that area is where people don't
understand budgeting in the first place or don't have support to
(47:01):
understand budgeting.
That's where the real concern sort of starts to highlight.
But that's not necessarily when why people...
People don't go flat self-manage unless they're kind of able to
understand it as a functionality.
But then the question is, how does the agency assess that,
which I also think is kind of been addressed in the registration
(47:24):
task force with now having people that want to stay self-managed look
at having to go through a registration process with themselves,
which for anyone listening isn't like a registration provider order.
It's a lot more self-taught, a lot of light touch, and a lot less
rigorous there.
So it's not a full-on magnifying glass investigation looking at you,
(47:46):
but it's more ensuring the ability that you're able to manage that
funding appropriately and pay bills.
So I do hear quite a lot of participants that are self-managed,
kind of almost provider shopping or jumping from provider to provider,
but getting supports, but then not necessarily paying.
(48:08):
And then there's no recourse for that support to claim that money back
in an easy manner without having spent quite a lot of money on legal
to ensure that service agreements are able to be then taken to court.
And then the question is, is the money that you've done for that couple
of weeks worth of service actually enough to justify going down that
(48:31):
process in the first place?
Because that can be very costly.
Very true.
Michelle, I heard a rumour in STA about STAs that people couldn't use
STA funding to go interstate, but I now think that you've kind of
(48:53):
answered that in the idea of holiday versus respite and that what we're
shifting to is that it's not, like people with disabilities can still go
on holidays, but they have to pay for them like everybody else has to.
Right.
Absolutely.
(49:14):
Except for those extra bits that have to do with, directly to do with
their disability.
Versus, so if you did go interstate, that's more looking like a holiday.
Whereas if you go to respite, you know, nearer to where you live, that
(49:36):
sort of looks less sus.
Look, it depends.
When we started five years ago, respite, the place you went on respite had
to be a hundred kilometres from where you lived.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So, that made it hard when people wanted to be within the vicinity of
(49:57):
their normal medical offices or things like that where they knew if they
got a bladder infection, they could go straight to their doctor that they
knew the doctor had the information.
So, that's where we started was the 100 kilometre distance.
And don't ask me where I found that.
I can't remember where that was.
But now we're in a situation where if you do respite, the purpose for respite
(50:23):
obviously have the right.
So, yeah, generally you can stay within the vicinity.
If you are choosing to go further from home, it has to be to achieve a goal
that cannot be achieved within the vicinity of home.
So, again, it comes down to people using their words, people thinking
about, gosh, I'd love to do this.
I've always wanted to do this before I had my accident, I used to do this.
(50:46):
Or before I had my accident, I always had a goal to do this.
Put it in your plan.
Spell out what in your life you want to do.
And if it can't be achieved close to home, where can it be achieved and why
can it be achieved?
And put it in your plan.
So, you know, a lot of people in rural areas can't achieve a lot of the
(51:07):
things that they want to do in that home.
And a lot of it could be coming down to, you know, I've heard about this,
you know, exercise physiologist that does neurophysiology and, you know, if
I go and see them, I might get function of my hand back.
Okay, well, then put it in your plan and look at matching the STA with
attending that neurologist and trying to have a difference.
(51:30):
Match it with the exercise physiologist.
Match it with the goal to put your feet in the water at the beach and see
what it feels like.
Like, there's so many different things that people can really think about that
can go into their plans, you know, but it has to be away from, if they're
travelling away from home, they're travelling interstate, it has to be
something they cannot achieve in their state.
(51:51):
Same with international.
If people want to go and travel internationally, there has to be a very
good reason for the LAC and the plan writers to accept international in
your plan or respite and it must be something that cannot be achieved in
Australia.
So, Disney's thrown that for a lot of the Disney fans out there because
(52:13):
we've now got the cruise ships, but then Bill Shorten's just thrown it again
saying you can't have a cruise ship, even though a cruise ship is a much
cheaper option than a group home in Logan, like $5,500 cheaper.
But anyway, thanks, Bill Shorten.
I'd love to have that conversation.
I'd like to touch a very interesting topic.
Sam Pryor raised this in the Reasonable and Necessary podcast, as in what's
(52:35):
the actual difference between having that support in a group home versus
having exactly the same support on a floating accommodation?
Or let's say what's the difference between a Gold Coast high-rise versus a
cruise ship?
If it's still meeting the needs, meeting the goals, meeting the ability
(52:59):
and within the rules, what's the difference between the physical location
and why?
You're getting your community participation.
You're getting your accommodation.
You're getting your meals included.
On most occasions, they've got the equipment on board if you need it or
they work with people like us to put the equipment on board.
They've got nursing support.
(53:20):
What's that?
You've got nursing support on staff.
Nursing support.
You've got doctors on board.
You've got everything on board you need.
A cruise ship is so much better than a group home in Logan or a hotel on the
Gold Coast than anything, and it is so feasible.
So I was blown away with that comment.
I totally get the group that was promoting it in the wrong form.
(53:42):
Let's go have a big party on a cruise ship as a big group.
No, that's OK.
I get that.
But if somebody's got a specific goal that they wish to achieve and it's
cheaper and more feasible than going anywhere else, then do it.
You know, we've also got the debate about international.
If people are travelling international, they're paying their own flights,
(54:06):
right?
The accommodation, care support and equipment hire in most international
countries is considerably lower than our country.
Considerably.
So they, again, are saving on their core funding by not spending that
maximum allowance per day.
They just happen to be doing it in another country.
But someone turned to me and said, yeah, but then that money is going out of
(54:28):
our country.
The money is not staying in the businesses in Australia.
But tell me how somebody can get an allowance for $15,000 to $20,000 for a
specialised wheelchair that's made in Switzerland.
Where is it different?
Where is the difference?
The money is still going to an Australian company like my STA or like that, you
(54:50):
know, AIDA care or country care or whatever, but the equipment is coming from
China or from Switzerland.
It's still going overseas.
How is it any different with people travelling internationally to achieve major
goals, see family that they can't come here or to have these experiences?
Like, you know, we've got people that love archaeology and everything.
(55:12):
They want to go and see an actual site that's not Winston, you know, in
Queensland to go and see dinosaur bones.
I don't want to see dinosaur bones.
I want to see pyramids, you know, but they can't achieve the goal because Bill
Shorten's told them they're not allowed to go overseas.
So where is the difference between a cruise ship in a hotel on the Gold Coast or
international and a group home in Logan?
(55:34):
Logan's getting a slam from me at the moment.
The problem with cruise ships from my understanding is really just the optics.
And that frustrates me because, you know, the NDIS is already a bit up a creek
(55:57):
when it comes to optics.
So like far out, why pick on cruise ships?
It's so stupid.
Michelle, you sort of did raise that point that if I was in those shoes, in
Bill Shorten's shoes and looking at why I'm saying this, it's not because I want
(56:20):
to stop people from going on cruises.
It's because I want to stop people charging a shit ton of money for something
that they're not paying a lot of money for.
Oh, yeah.
Like, I'm sure you've done some cost analysis onto these versus paying full
rate and based on how you're saying about $500 a day, you've gone well and truly
(56:44):
overboard on cost analysis, business performance, business sustainability from
a commercial decision, which is really important as a business owner.
Yeah, I'd be a lot more surprised if I did what everybody else did, but I can't.
From an integrity perspective, I just can't.
The margins are phenomenal.
(57:06):
Yeah.
And then if you're not putting, if everyone's staying in the same room,
brings it down even more.
And that would be the main reason if I was in Bill Shorten's shoes as to why I
would be pushing this.
Yeah.
So that's when you drill down on all the providers again.
And I welcome an audit of all providers.
(57:29):
I encourage it.
You know, I just think everybody needs to take a good, hard look at themselves.
What they're charging, why they're charging, how they're charging, is it
reasonable and necessary?
You know, because like I said, I could be making a mozza right now if I was
charging what the NDIS guidelines said I can.
But from an integrity perspective, I just can't do it.
(57:52):
You know, and you look at the margins, look at, you know, care agencies.
We'll go back to them.
They might charge the top amount, the $67.56, but they're only charging or
paying their staff like $30.
So their margins are huge, right?
I understand businesses have to make margins.
Businesses have to make profits.
But let's all be fair and reasonable.
(58:13):
And at the end of the day, as a business owner, I'm a taxpaying person as well.
I'm not going to rip off the government, which are my taxpaying dollars as well.
So I think everybody needs to stop and think about that too.
I think it would be a very different marketplace if everyone was required to
(58:36):
give their profit percentage margins.
Oh, yeah.
It would be very interesting to see what happens.
I would not only that, like actually as part of audit or registration, that
being public, the outcome of your audit process in the first place, being
publicly available would be interesting.
But then understanding...
(58:58):
Companies, wouldn't we?
Oh, well, look, I'm pretty sure I've got some people going, shut up, Sam.
But it's the point.
Like how do providers that actually take this stuff real seriously want to have a
financially viable business, but then have to compete with big corporates that
(59:20):
are pushing 40, 50, 60% profit margins, or jumping in the sector with big
investor money and pushing quite a lot to get essentially those margin points,
and then how is that fair for us as taxpayers going, with our money going
into this?
It's very interesting conversations.
(59:42):
Oh, it really is, and I think I'll upset too many more people if I keep talking.
On that note, it's probably a good time to ask our final question.
Okay.
In your ideal world, what would the future of the NDIS look like?
That's a hard question.
I think at the end of the day, we just get back to what it's about, and that's
(01:00:04):
improving lives.
Let's look at people who truly require support.
Let's look at people that can live a more fulfilling, supported life with
providers that are fair and reasonable.
I think that's what my ideal vision of the NDIS is.
(01:00:25):
It's having the right people look after the right people.
Does that sound weird?
No, that's a great response.
It's the most simplest response I think we've had to date, if I'm not mistaken,
Hannah.
I think it encapsulates the idea really, really well.
Yeah.
Let's all just look after each other.
That's it.
Support each other and make life better for everyone.
(01:00:48):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Thanks, Hannah.
Thanks, Sam.
It's been great joining you.
Thanks for that little tangent that you sent me down.
That was great.
Mind you, I feel like I'm going on a tangent every second podcast at the moment.
You either love me or hate me about it.
I knew there'd be something I'd be able to poke you with, Sam.
(01:01:09):
It's like, okay, what can I get him on?
Oh, there's lots.
There's lots.
But yeah, thank you so much, Michelle.
It's been an absolute pleasure having this chat and your candour and just the sort of
your concepts and how you built your business and your philosophies behind it as well is
really wonderful to hear.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I love what I do and I love changing lives.
(01:01:32):
Awesome.
All right.
Until next time.
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you for listening.
Please share with people you know.
Until next time, as the Green Brothers say, don't forget to be awesome.
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