Episode 54 - Michael Clark - What in the NDIS now?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We acknowledge the original owners of the land on which we podcast, whose stories were told for

(00:05):
thousands of years. Today we are recording in Mianjin. We pay our respects to elders past
and present who may be listening. Sovereignty was never ceded. A quick note before we get started,
that there may be some swearing in today's podcast. If you don't like swearing or usually
listen with children in the car, you have been warned. This episode of What in the NDIS Now is

(00:32):
brought to you by Astalti. Astalti is the software solution for NDIS professionals built by NDIS
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(01:20):
today's episode. You're listening to What in the NDIS Now, a podcast where I, Hannah Redford,
and my friend Sam Rosenbaum interview participants and providers about all things NDIS.

(01:49):
Hey Sam, how are you doing? Yeah, really good Hannah. Enjoying the summer weather coming back?
Oh yeah. Well, I mean, it's been raining a lot. Well, it has been very wet, but we are getting
towards the summer at the summer times, although that could mean a very wet summer or a very
humid and horrible summer or a combination of both. Who knows? Who knows? It'll be fun to see how we

(02:13):
go. Indeed. So what are we doing today? Who are we talking to today? Today, we have Michael to talk
a little bit about some marketing in the NDIS space and a few other things. So we're really excited.
Welcome Michael. So good to be here. I can't wait to show your participants how to choose good

(02:34):
providers. Can't wait to show your providers how to actually represent themselves well. Well, it's
a really good topic there to get into Michael. So let's start off with our first question of how
you got into NDIS. Yeah. Well, my background is that I'm a primary school teacher. So you know how
there's some teachers... Sam, you forgot the first question. Oh. Where did you grow up? Up.

(03:00):
Well, let's go to that one. I didn't grow up as a primary teacher.
Let's get started with our first question, which is where you grew up. I grew up in a small town
called Gapin. It is an hour west of Brisbane and it's a country town and I love country towns.
And so I think I had the best way of growing up in the world. If anyone else out there grew up in
a country town, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. Awesome. And have you been

(03:24):
lived anywhere else around the world or around Australia? I've lived in Armidale. It's a lovely
place to live. I now live in Canberra. Canberra gets a bad rep for being boring. Okay. I think
that's because it's safe. You can walk down the street and not get mugged. So people say it's
really boring, but I actually like it. It's a great place to raise kids. And in Canberra, there's two
good months of the year. And that would be November and December. And then apart from that, it's really

(03:49):
cold or really, really hot. So yeah, I'm in my favourite two months of the year. Got to love it.
So great. I really like that. I do love summer weather. It's much nicer. It is. Have you noticed
though how people wind in summer? They're like, oh, it's so hot. It's like, yeah, but do you
remember two months ago, you were winging them out being cold? Like surely this is better, right?
But anyway, I usually get the, because I'm Victorian and I'll come up here because I don't like the dry

(04:14):
summer. I know I can't deal with the humidity. And I'm like, yeah, it's fine. I'd rather be
able to breathe than sweat my purse fire like this night of tomorrow. I get it. So yeah. And then what
was the second question? The second question was how to get into NDIS. Well, pretty much I'm a
primary school teacher by trade and you know how some teachers, they love helping the kids who are
super smart? Well, that's not me. I just don't really care. If they're smart, why am I here?

(04:38):
You know, so I love helping the kids who find it really difficult. And because of that, I found my
way into helping quite a few NDIS businesses. And so now I just do marketing for NDIS businesses and
my marketing company is called Athletic Koala. And there's a team of just a couple of us. And
together we help NDIS businesses to put forward their true colors, because most of us in the NDIS

(05:01):
are not here because we love business. We're here because we love people. So my job is helping
people get what they're doing out there into the world. Now we love this, but as someone that was
on the Harder Learning spectrum, we very much appreciate teachers like yourself.
Oh, you're so welcome, Sam. I'll be honest, like nothing's more boring than trying to teach people

(05:22):
who are going to pick it up the first time. You know what I mean, Sam? Your teachers would have
loved hanging out with you because on your good days, it would have been like so much fun. It's
like the reality is most young people who find school hard, of course they find school hard.
They've repeatedly found it hard. They found it hard in the past. They found it hard yesterday
and they don't think today will be any different. And then we wonder why they're a bit quirky and

(05:43):
hard to work with is because they sort of gave up hope a bit. And so what like in the NDIS,
a lot of our participants who businesses in NDIS world will say, oh, but they're so hard to work
with. It's like, yes, because they're so used to being treated like dirt. They're so used to
being ignored. I mean, when was the last time an LIC even replied to an email? Okay. So we wonder
why they're hard work, but it's because they're assuming they're going to be treated poorly. And

(06:05):
it doesn't have to be like that. Absolutely. That is awesome. And exactly right. I have found that
so often. And one of a number of my participants have said that their biggest pet peeve is being
infantilised. Yeah. And talked down to and, you know, in this way of support workers coming in

(06:34):
and treating them like a chore. It is so, so it's so great, you know, to talk about this kind of
thing. One of the things I think is sometimes overlooked is websites. Yeah. Now as a support
coordinate, when I was a support coordinator, one of the things I would do is go, oh, here are the

(06:59):
three or four options I think would be good when I'm presenting them to a participant. And I would
often say, because I understand, you know, nothing about these providers, how about we together have
a look at their websites and get a vibe check from a website to start with. Right. And so you have

(07:23):
dealt with a lot of providers and their websites. And how have you found that? Well, it's sort of
quirky because you've got two types of providers out there. I don't see a third type. One type of
provider is someone like say you or Sam, you love people, you want to help people, you go and start

(07:45):
your own NDIS business and you are helping people. You spread very quickly by word of mouth or maybe
through support coordinators because you are just good at what you do. And people know that and they
feel cared about. And the thing is that a business like that will grow quite quickly initially and
then it will stall because once you've got say 20, 30 participants, well, how do you keep growing
from there? Okay. And then you've got a different type of NDIS business that's driven by a business

(08:10):
person, not someone who cares. And a business like that will have the perfect website. They will
throw many, many thousands and thousands of dollars into marketing and they'll do all the flashy
stuff. And at the end of the day, they're building a business. They're not building lives. So you
seem to have two main types of providers. So my recommendation to participants would be look for

(08:34):
someone who may not look flashy, but you can see they care. And my recommendation to providers would
be stop trying to look flashy because it actually makes you look dodgy. Instead, look, just be real.
And the way you can see that on a head on a website, Hannah, is by firstly, when you look at the
about page is the owner standing there in a suit or a tie or a shirt that looks like posh. If so,

(09:00):
they're probably more the business person. Okay. You want to see real photos. If you don't see
photos of the actual stuff on their website, it either means they're tiny. And so they've put no
money into their website, which is a good thing, or it means they're big, but still can be flashy,
which is, you know, that says a lot. So you want to look for real. So you want real photos. I work

(09:23):
for, I don't know, maybe two dozen NDIS businesses and helping them with their websites. And the
first thing that I would do with someone is go, right, let's get rid of these fake photos, get
new ones. Because Hannah, how many times have you gone to an NDIS website and it's full of people
with Down syndrome and in wheelchairs? And you're like, hold on, surely half the NDIS participants

(09:44):
in Australia aren't Down syndrome or wheelchair sort of category. How does that work? But they're
the stock photos, the free photos, people have just snagged off the internet. And often these
websites were written by someone who doesn't even speak English. And I'm just like, this is nuts.
So when you're looking for a provider, that's a big red flag. And then the other extreme is

(10:04):
where their website looks like it's better than Coca-Cola's. And you're like, well, they're
obviously putting lots of money into marketing, but who are they? If they've got scale, if they've
got say more than 40 or 50 staff, they're probably not the provider for you anyway. They're the next
McDonald's. Forget them. So you want something sort of in the middle, Hannah. Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
Yeah. What goes through your head as a provider? When I say middle is good, tiny means untested,

(10:28):
huge means McDonald's. Thanks anyway. Middle is where you want to live. Like what are your
thoughts on that?
Well, yeah, I agree with that because often also the big providers can forget what they're there
for and participants get sort of lost in their systems. And I think that there is a good middle

(10:54):
ground, but I think it's very hard to achieve. I think one of the things that providers forget
as well is to treat their staff well and not just, oh, but I'm really, I've seen a lot on Facebook
just recently, providers saying, oh, but I'm really easy to work with, but I can't, but I still can't

(11:19):
retain staff. And I'm like, well, what are you doing training wise? Are you showing them that they
could grow with your company? Are you taking them on the journey with you? All of those sorts of
things, are you providing them with debriefing? Are you, you know, all of these sorts of things that I

(11:44):
am concerned about. So some of the things that I think about are things like who does the
participant talk to when things go wrong?
Yeah, good call.
Do they get a supervisor's phone number? What sort of clients do you not take? Who do you take?

(12:05):
Because I think you really need a niche. How long does it take you to reply to emails?
Because if you're taking days as a support coordinator, I've moved on. How does feedback
work? How is it tracked? What are some of the things that you're doing with that?

(12:25):
It's almost like Hannah, what you're doing is you're listing out the things that would
constitute someone cares about you. So if Hannah cares about me, I will get a response from her by
email tomorrow. If Hannah doesn't care about me, she may or might not even respond to me at all.
Now, why anyone would accept that from any business, let alone an NDIS business that
they're paying for, I find that baffling. The one about supervisor's phone number. Now,

(12:50):
I've, there's a couple of NDIS businesses that I work in as a marketer for them. And in every
business I work in, I'm like, if you're not willing as the director to give your phone number out to
people, you obviously don't care. Now you can imagine how popular that makes me, but I'm stuffed
if I'm going to represent someone and make their website look so good, if they're not willing to
put themselves on the line. Okay, sure. You might get a crazy person call you one day on a Sunday.

(13:15):
You answer their question, you block their number, you move on. But to not give your phone number
out to the people actually says, no, I'm McDonald's. You just have to take what you take. And I just,
I just don't understand why that is, you know, like, sure, there's a distinction between home
and work, but you either care about the people you're serving or you don't. And if you don't,

(13:36):
I don't want to work for you. Yeah, I think that's great that you as someone who will decide whether
or not you even take someone on to do their marketing by what you sense in them, I think is,
is a really great. So how do you work out whether you work for a provider? It is easier than you

(13:59):
think. Like, so say chatting with you and Sam, I would happily work for you guys because you're real,
you joke, you laugh, you're not trying to be dominant. Okay. You're trying to be people.
And when I chat with you, I feel like I'm talking to an equal. Now, as soon as someone's talking to
me and they're trying to make me prove myself, then I know that that's what they're going to do for
everyone else. And I don't have to play that game. So I'm just like, yep, thanks so much for your

(14:23):
time. Have a good day. And I'll move on. But the thing is, it's like back when we were saying 19 or
20, and let's say Sam asked for my ID, because he's 17 and a half. He wants to go out for the night.
I'm not giving you my ID, Sam. I'm not lying for you. Okay. In the same way, it's like, if my job
is creating websites that show the heart of an organization and that heart is actually dark,

(14:44):
deceptive or lazy or just disorganized, you're asking me to lie for you. And it may take me
a hundred hours to create for someone an amazing website that shows the different facets of what
they do. I'm not going to sit there feeling guilty for a hundred hours that I'm lying. That's not
who I am. You know, the hard bit is when a business looks so good initially, but then halfway

(15:05):
through the project, you realize these guys are dodgy as crap. I once had that experience. And
then you're like, well, I've said, I'll do the job. I'm going to do the job, but then I'm going to
walk away and wipe this out of my memory because you don't want to work without a clean conscience
and neither do I. So I only work for people who I know are going to serve people. Now that's really
easy when an organization has up to say 20 participants, because you do not grow your first

(15:29):
20 participants if you're not good at serving people, but it becomes a lot clear out here as
organizations get bigger. Yeah, absolutely. So can you tell us a little bit about when it comes to
social media marketing? What is, have you got some do's and don'ts that you could give us real quick?
Yeah, the shorter, the, I could say one word, don't. Okay. It doesn't mean never do it is just

(15:55):
don't expect a return on that. So the thing is when someone's searching, say they're searching for a
support coordinator, they don't go to Facebook to search for a support coordinator. They go to their
friends or they talk to other people. That's how they find a support coordinator. Now back in COVID,
no one had anything useful to do with their time. So we sat around at home. That was a great time
to do social media marketing because everyone was just sitting around bored out of their brain. But

(16:18):
as soon as everyone went back to work, people don't have time to go sit around Facebook anymore or
Instagram or whatever is the next thing. And so if you're, I keep hearing this from businesses,
I'm putting money into my social media marketing. Someone told me the other day, they're spending
three grand on in the next three months on social media marketing. I'm like, whoa, pull that three
grand back, go and get a website provider, put all that effort into an amazing website because that

(16:40):
website will stand forever. But if you put three grand into Facebook ads or whatever, it's there.
And then it's gone. You have nothing to show for it. You know, it's, it's like, you wouldn't do
relationships like that. Why would you do marketing like that? So for social media, it's like, do
something, but don't expect for a turn, you know, and you can schedule your posts. So you might
schedule a post a day for the next two weeks, but, but just don't expect it to pay for itself. And

(17:04):
if you're going to schedule this, have you ever seen this Hannah, people using their participants
to promote themselves?
Oh man, this is one of my big pet peeves. Don't take photos of your participants and put them on
Facebook without their consent.
Even with consent though. Like I see, I see like, cause I work with like quite a lot of providers

(17:31):
in privacy and compliance and this sort of space and getting the consent and how we work consent
forms to say, yes, we can use your thing and make that all happy. But at the end of the day, when
you see that, that reel or that video or that photo, what's like the motive behind it? It's

(17:57):
not going, this participant's having a good time. It's a, we are great. I'm going to leverage
my support worker and the participant to boost my social profile.
Sam, I love it. It's like, Hey, support worker, can you put your phone away just for 10 minutes?

(18:17):
Because you know, you spent the last half hour sitting on scrolling and we're going to make a
Facebook group and it's like, who wins from that? So if you look at the difference between that
sort of promotion and like what we're doing. So, I mean, how did I happen was I heard how good
Hannah was Sam, I'm sure you're good too, but I didn't hear about you had to break it.
I'm a silent partner in the sense.

(18:37):
Okay. You're like the quiet one, the quiet achiever. So I heard how good Hannah is,
someone who I'd never met said, Michael, you need to get in touch with Hannah. She'd love to have
you on her show. I'm like, what did you just say about her? How would I even know? You know,
that was a bit awkward to say the least, but I still got in touch with Hannah and lo and behold,
she's like, yes, please come on the show. And so out of this conversation, I get the joy of chatting
with you, Sam, with you, Hannah, I get to help providers know how to represent themselves. Well,

(19:02):
I get to help participants and help them know what to look for. And out of it, I'm sure by the end
of the day, I'll go home and in my inbox, there'll be, you know, 10 or 15 people have emailed
athletic koala, my company to just ask me some questions. Some of them will become clients.
Win, win. Where's the win in that, that participant that stuck on someone else's Facebook real,

(19:25):
there's no win for them. So it's actually a self-serving thing. Now that's what we hate
about the medium size players because they've completely self-serving. They've got past the,
you know, your first 10 or 15 participants where you only grow by being awesome to the stage where
you can then you've got the financial firepower. You've got the money to throw at marketing.

(19:47):
So what they're doing there is that so self-serving. So when you see any marketing,
there's self-serving run the other way. Now what looks like self-serving marketing?
It's like you just said, Hannah, someone putting up a thing on Facebook. Oh, look at our participant
that self-serving. We all know that, but it could be hidden self-serving. Look at how our participant,
how far they've come. Well, it is self-serving. Sure. You're, you're highlighting them. You're

(20:11):
giving them some praise affirmation that could have been an achieve. That could have been achieved
with a photo that mum took on a phone and then texted 10 friends. In fact, it could have been
achieved better. So we still look at the motive there and go that's self-serving. It's like,
if it's not win-win, it is self-serving. Why are we doing it? So to play devil's advocate for the
give it a crack, because right now, as much as I don't necessarily disagree, I'm also going,

(20:37):
this whole conversation contravenes decades worth of business practices in how we do.
But admittedly, we are in a very different, we're not in manufacturing. We're not in
digital media, for example, or other sort of spaces. We're not in merchandising,
but we are in human gain. So, so far, I've sort of pulled away that we need to try and tailor down

(21:01):
or not necessarily have the flash bells and whistles, but we need to be able to present
ourselves and a provider needs to be able to present ourselves in a way that gets the messaging
of who we are and our values across without necessarily, and probably a lot of small owners
would be very grateful without spending the money as well. Not necessarily. But being authentic.

(21:26):
With the internal things, but from a small provider, I know that's really hard to do as well.
Well, the whole, the, how we kind of promote ourselves as a provider. Yeah, I can do a selfie
right now with my slightly bleached stained shirt and my wonderful backyard as my backdrop,

(21:49):
and that's going to be pretty, that's generally me. But how do we put that in a way then that goes
to a participant goes, this is us. We also have enough staff to be able to make sure we can supply
you with support when our other staff decide that they want, no one, they want to be there.
That also aren't necessarily going to be too big that throws the spanner in the works,

(22:12):
meaning that they don't necessarily care or value. It's the kind of little, where,
what's your advice to providers on how to balance that act?
I would love to tell you that because it took me about six months to work out a formula.
Okay. The formula is easy. Anyone could do it. And if you're, unless you're driving the car right
now, don't pull over because you know, your calls an accident, but write this down. If you are a

(22:35):
provider who's in, say your first 18 months, and if you're a participant listening to this, listen
to this for these are the things that you are subliminally looking for without realizing it.
So, so, you know, it's really going on in your head. So the first thing is whenever a provider
gets started, particularly going through the registration process, they have to have a website.
They'll always have a website that costs them maybe 1500 bucks. It's full of stock photos.

(22:57):
In other words, not real photos. And it's full of genericness. Everything just feels vanilla.
And you could line up 10 of these websites beside each other. They all look the same. They all say
the same thing. Our mission is to help people. Our core value is to be inclusive. And they all just
look the same. Okay. So that's where all providers will start. And it's what will kill your business.
If you try and keep that beyond, say, 20 participants. So at that point, whether you've

(23:22):
got, say, 15, 20 participants, or when you've got the financial firepower and you want to go quicker,
here's what you want to do on your website. Number one is make sure your contact page has a photo of
someone who'll be picking up the phone to them. Now, why am I starting with the contact page? It's
because it's the most important page of your website. So your contact page, say for you, Hannah,
let's imagine for your business, ideal would be there's a photo of Hannah there. And on the contact

(23:46):
page, there's a form, a simple form, it just says name, phone, email, how can we help? And then on
that contact page, you need a promise. Hi, I'm Hannah. I promise to get back to you within 24
hours of you sending this message. And if you send me the message in the morning, expect me to call
you back this afternoon. Now, if you do that, you look better than the flashy companies because
they won't make that promise because I don't care. Okay. And also on your homepage, do not like,

(24:09):
firstly, clear out all the photos of wheelchairs and people with Down Syndrome because everyone
knows that if you build your website with that, that it's a stock, they're stock photos. Okay.
Have, have real photos of your real stuff, but you, it's almost like saying what you're saying is,
but if I'm small, I don't look polished. Who the hell wants polished? What I mean, Hannah, Sam,

(24:31):
myself, we don't look that polished. We're just hanging out. Okay. And people hear what we're
saying and they're like, Oh, I trust them because they're being real. And, and if you look polished,
all you do is look like McDonald's. Don't look polished. Don't look like, you know, you've got
a can of Coca-Cola in your hand while you're talking. That's crazy, but don't, don't aim for
polish. Just aim for real. And then on your homepage, you want, you want to be very clear with,

(24:56):
you know, photos of you with your participants now, or you with your staff. Now, before I said,
don't use participants to, for your own self-serving purposes, using a participant in social media is
always going to be self-serving on your website though. What it's doing is you're serving people
by using real participants because what you're, what you're doing is you're setting it up so that
whoever comes to you in the future knows that you're real. But if you're participants on your

(25:20):
homepage of your website, you need to make sure that you've shouted the Maccas. You've told them
that they're a star. You've told them that you appreciate what they're doing. And you've told
them that, you know, you, you being willing to be on our website means that other people like you,
who we love to serve will find us. Thank you so much. Do you see the integrity in that? Okay.
It's not like, Oh, I'm secretly doing this with some dodgy, might if you've told them what you

(25:44):
might have done. I want amazing people like you, who I love working with to find us. And, and also
on your website, instead of trying to use jargon and professional words, your website is not written
for a support coordinator. Your website's written for real people. The support coordinators can see
if you know what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be like, Oh, we're here to provide the best

(26:04):
possible experience for all participants. Like, no, that sounds like chat. GBT right. In other words,
just say, Hey, we're here to help. Tell us what you need. We'll make it happen. And it's like,
Sam, would you choose the McDonald's version of a website? That's like, Oh, all participants are
valued equally. Or would you put you, or would you be preparing to choose Sam? Someone that said,
Hey, I'm not sure exactly what you need yet. Cause we haven't shattered. Give me a call.

(26:26):
Let's work something out. What would you prefer Sam? Oh, all right. Um, well, the simple Maccas is
usually my run. I don't like to complicate things. No, the, the general idea of someone that goes,
I don't know what you want, but I want to have that conversation first is usually the way to go.

(26:48):
Though I do understand the Maccas philosophy by going, cause when you look at the Facebook
groups and the grassroots groups, it's a call out of going, I don't know Maccas philosophy is,
do you want fries with that? What else can we do to value your patronage and stuff like that?
So it's built on the philosophy of the Maccas kind of shiny concept is what else can we do

(27:10):
from a profit to actually give you what you want? There's, it's still got the cost value centric.
We give you a service or we give you a product, you expect this and we can probably upsell you.
So I think it benefits different people in different ways on how they want it. We know
from the Facebook groups that there are very particular people that want support in a very

(27:33):
specific measured way that they lead. Yeah. Because that's what they want. They know their,
they know their circumstances. They know what they want. But then also, if you look at some
of the bigger grassroots groups, it's a, I've just got my plan. I've got no idea. That's right.
That's where the would you like fries with that comes in. But I think the biggest, the big call

(27:58):
out from the disability royal commission and all the stuff that's come out from the NDIS review
is that yes, we can have fries with that, but we really need to be looking on what kind of fries
and how you get those fries presented. How reasonable and necessary are these fries?

(28:18):
I bet that'd be, it's not even so much that if we, as if providers scape out the reasonable and
necessary conversation, because generally speaking, that's a participant and an NDIS argument.
If I'm a provider, I'm trying to stay out of that. As long as it's on a support
coordinate, then I'm having a whole heap of a different conversation when it comes to this.
But if I'm a provider, I'm going, well, you're telling me it's your reasonable, it's necessary

(28:41):
and it's funded within the plan, but you don't know what you want either. So I know that you're
we've got to have that conversation going. What do you want? What are your services that you need?
And can I give you fries on top of that? Because you don't know you want the fries.
That's right. Do you want curly fries or do you want thin cut fries? And I don't want the thin
cut fries because they they're shoestring and I would rather than nice curly fries because they're

(29:01):
big and like a pig's tail. Everything you're saying makes sense. I guess what it comes down to is this.
If I know what Sam and Hannah are going to deliver, if I know exactly what they're going to deliver,
then then I'll give them a call if that's what I want. The problem with the generic website that
people start with when they first get registered is that there's nothing specific about what they

(29:24):
do. It's all about huge promises and generalizations. And Sam, when you're talking about
curly fries versus thin fries versus who knows what else fries, it's like, why does your website
not clearly articulate who you're there for and what specifically do you do? So I know someone
whose website is recently Seale, Support Independent Living, and I'm like, well, what is it within Seale

(29:47):
that you do? Everyone claims that they do Seale. Everyone claims it's personalized. How many
NDRS websites have you ever seen that doesn't have the word personalized at least 47 times?
Or person-centered.
That's right, person-centered, whatever that means. But anyway, so I'm like, so what is it that you
do? And it took me an hour of chatting with this business owner to realize they're actually there

(30:07):
to help people who've had a really hard time. And if you look through their participants, they're
full of people who've dealt with just hard, hard times. I'm like, right, let's make it that your
whole website's all about, if you've had a really hard time, this is the Seale housing for you.
And so instead of being like, hi, choose us because we're good. It's like, hi, choose us
only if you've had a tough run. This is a place where you get to enjoy life again. You get

(30:30):
to relax. You get to feel safe in a home because if you're so specific about what you do, then the
right people will come to you and you will never have a vacancy. But the thing is, like you're
saying, Sam, most people are not specific about what they do. You don't know what type of fries
they're doing. And all you've got is a flashy website full of abundant promises, but no
substance. The other thing is if you're going to claim that you are doing Seale housing for people

(30:53):
with complex mental health needs or people who've had a hard time, then on your website, you're
going to need to give abundant advice, things that they can already be doing today before they even
pick up the phone to you. Things like, do you have a friendship network? Do you have at least one
person who you can tell anything to? You know, and you could list out, say, 10 mental health factors

(31:14):
that they could be addressing even before they pick up the phone to you. Because the issue we've
got is that people are scared to give advice, but you're not giving advice. Their general
principles might clear their general principles. But when someone reads 10 different things that
they could be doing, say if they're a support coordinator, 10 things that they could be passing
on to their participant that they could already be doing things like walk around outside for at least

(31:38):
15 minutes a day, it does a world of good mental health. Then what you're doing is that provider
doesn't have to prove that they're good at complex mental health. They've given away information.
It's demonstrated. So it means one, the right people call them. But two, when they call them,
they have to prove themselves because the proof was done on the website. So sometimes people say
to me, what, all this money for a website, but then I need that money. It's like, hold on,

(32:02):
how many thousands of hours of time you're going to save if your website just articulates what you
do thoroughly. You're going to have only the right people call you and they're not going to ask you
to prove yourself. They know you're on their side. Is that right? Yeah. Well, it maps a conversation
and kind of a mantra that I think Hannah and I have been chanting on since before we even had our

(32:23):
very first recording. And what would that be? No, your niche. Yes. You're not here to serve everyone.
That's insane. We then go into eligibility criteria and assessment, which is something you've also
sort of mapped in on and then spelling that out really clearly. No, we don't deal with MS or yes,
we only deal with MS or we are fantastic at psychosocial, but we're not going to be able to

(32:47):
help you with a full hoist and catheter bowel changes. That's right. And what you're talking
about is scary. It's really scary for the new provider. So you find me a single provider who's
been there for 18, 18 months or less, who wants to go and say, here's my niche. I serve people in
the autistic community with still homes that are relaxed and calm and where you're going to actually

(33:11):
want to be there. They're scared to do that because they're like, but if I, if I say that my niche is
is autism and still and calmness, then I've excluded everyone else. Well, guess what? If you don't say
what your niche is, you've excluded everyone full stop. So we're not here to serve everyone.
Otherwise, we wouldn't have 147 million different organizations. You're here to serve one type of

(33:32):
person. Be clear on that. And that takes courage and Sam, it's easy for you and Hannah and I at
our age to have a bit of courage and go, no, no, here's what I'm here to, here's what I'm here to
do. But it's very hard for someone who's put, you know, their house on the line, starting a business
to actually choose a niche. They'd rather be vanilla, but I know about you guys. When was the
last time you went to an ice cream shop and said, I want vanilla. If there's 47 flavors, I ain't

(33:54):
choosing vanilla. So don't be vanilla in your website, I guess.
No, and providers that say they do everything or, or have every, are registered for everything is
the biggest red flag to me, because if you can't even narrow down to, you know, two or three

(34:16):
services that you can do and do really well, then I'm pretty concerned. And
in particular providers who do everything under the sun and then are also, we do plan management.
And we do fries.

(34:38):
Like to me that screams three options. You do plan management really poorly for one thing,
but I also have a concern that you're paying yourself for the work that you're paying yourself
for the work that you're providing. Because if, if they've also getting supports from you

(34:59):
and you're the plan manager, like that, that is such a massive red flag.
And you're just talking about general dodgyness, Hannah. Yeah. I mean, if you are a generally
dodgy person, a couple of years ago, the NDIS seemed to be fairly accommodating of those types
of people. Yeah. But that was because we had not enough capacity in anything. So all you had to do

(35:24):
was exist. I mean, honestly, I talked to someone that was really lacking teeth and then I had no
idea what they were doing. Well, it was just like the perfect storm of when you've got not enough
supply, anything looks good. Okay. But that is not where we're at right now. Right now there are
people who've just got their registration because, you know, they got ordered a year and a half ready
for it. And a year and a half later, you know, they finally get the registration. So they're just

(35:48):
taking their first steps. They don't realize they've come into the hardest time there's ever been
to grow an NDIS business. And they've come with the expectations that all their friends told them a
year and a half ago of it's easy. All you do is you say, I have capacity and you don't even have to
do any marketing. So what I'm seeing now guys is a lot of new providers who are struggling and
considering quitting because they can't break through. The reason they can't break through is

(36:11):
they've never done any marketing in their life. They're people, people, they're people like Hannah
or Sam or myself. They just love people and they don't even know what to do. And they're believing
what everyone says, which is throw thousands of dollars at social media or throw thousands of
here. You know what, or even relying on support coordinators. How's this for a crazy thought guys?

(36:31):
There's all this talk about, you know, support coordinators, they'll either be here or they won't
be here in a year, one or the other. Right. Let's say it's 50, 50, they'll be gone. Okay. Because
everyone's like, Oh no, they'll turn them into navigators. What the government's going to go
and take X billion dollars that is currently spending support coordinators and then spend the
identical amount of money on navigators, just changing their title. It's going to be a little

(36:52):
bit more because they're expanding the scope from just NDIS people to external NDIS people.
So it's nuts. So who in their right mind, like if support coordinators go, the business model of 90%
of NDIS businesses that I know of is over because their only way of gaining new participants is to
rely on the support quarters, coordinators, I know to send them to them. Now, if that's going to go,

(37:16):
let's say that's 50, 50. Now let's try something. Hannah, if you knew this summer, there was a 50,
50 chance that your house was going to burn down. Would you just act like everything's normal? What
would you actually do if you knew there was a 50, 50 chance? Oh, I'd have a push fire preparedness
plan. Yeah. And you'd go and get all your photos, store them at your mom's house. You'd take some

(37:37):
precautions, but if it's 50, 50, we've got support coordinators in 12 months. Why is every NDIS
business going, I'm not going to spend any money on marketing. I'm not going to put any effort into
marketing. My old crappy website I had five years ago, it can keep standing. It's like on the day
you lose support coordinators, if you don't have another plan, you're over. You'll just gradually
dwindle and people act like that's not a problem. That is a problem because there's no one who would

(38:01):
bet their house on a 50, 50, but they're betting their, if they've mortgage their house for their
business, they're betting their house on. Yeah. So there's a real lack of foresight and a lot of
people putting their head in the sand going, it won't happen. It's like, you know what? It's 50,
50 will happen. Go on, toss a coin and see what happens. And so that's why it's important that
right now the providers who are awesome at their craft, the providers who do call people back the

(38:23):
same day, who do respond to emails, who do fix an invoice if it's not accurate, the providers who
will take the time to listen to the participant and not just tick forms is vital that they get
good at putting themselves out there for who they are and not stay dependent on support coordinators
because you cannot count on support coordinators going forwards.
So we're not using social media for marketing. What sort of marketing would you advise that is

(38:51):
used and what about things like expos and networking meetings that you pay to attend and things like that?
Yeah, there's a place for them. So every business is going to find one or two things that does
their marketing for them. Okay. So you might try 10 things and find one or two things that work

(39:12):
really well. So if you go back two or three years, Google ads and Facebook ads was the easiest way to
grow an NDIS business. That time is over because no one cares about those ads anymore. And so
they cost triple or quadruple what they used to cost. Now in terms of networking events, I go to
about 15 of them a year. I pay a lot of money to go there. It always pays for itself. Okay. But it's

(39:33):
like a networking event. I know I can go there. It will pay for itself 10 times over, but I've tried
10 different things before I found that one thing. So every business needs to be brave and put some
money behind doing a whole range of things and see what works. Okay. For one, if you're in a small
country town, you're going to, your first thing is going to be, make sure you go and visit some
support coordinators, send them a box of chocolates, just send them a thank you call the box of

(39:55):
chocolates. If someone sent you a participant, send them a thank you card with something nice in it,
because why wouldn't you? That's not bribery. That's just courtesy. People will remember you,
you know, that might be your way of doing it. I know other organizations who sent packages out to
about 30 or 40 different support coordinators and it paid for itself many times over. I know other
companies who tried that and it was a dismal failure. They got nothing back, but the really

(40:19):
when it comes to marketing, you must try a dozen things being willing to lose a dozen bets before
one finally works. But what you must do foundation is you must have a website that speaks from the
heart. That is that looks real. That doesn't look like, you know, your, your 17 year old nephew
made it, but also doesn't look like you're impersonating Coca-Cola when everyone knows you're

(40:41):
not Coca-Cola. Something that's real and something that is actually going to rank on Google. Now,
this is where we don't want to get stuck in a, in a cul-de-sac here, but if you have the best
possible website in the world, but Google's not interested, then it's like Cinderella sitting at
home, not going to the ball. Okay. You see your website needs to look good and then you need the

(41:01):
technical things behind it to be good as well. Otherwise Google won't show it off and you don't
need to pay huge, huge money for that, but your 17 year old nephew can't do it. So when you get to
a certain scale where you want to have a great website and then you've got to have it search
engine optimized properly, not, not obsessively, just properly. And then that's your baseline.
And from there you go and try 10 different things and see what works. But if your website looks

(41:24):
crap, you'll look like I could talk to Sam and Sam's like, Oh, I really want to refer people to
Michael's business. Hey, you should call athletic koala. And then they go to athletic koala's
website and they go, Oh, he's crap. All I've done there is a road Sam's credibility and wasted Sam's
time. If your website doesn't hold the story of who you are and who you're there to serve,
it all fails. So that's your foundation. But by other things, Hannah, there are people who will

(41:49):
find social media works for them, but starting from scratch in 2024, pretty hard thing to do.
There are people who'll find networking with support coordinates works for them. It's pretty
hard in 2024. You better be sending out somehow because support coordinates are over vanilla.
Okay. You might find the go networking events works. Well, what do you have you got to lose?
Try it. You know, so I guess it would be Hannah, give it a crack, try a few different things,

(42:12):
but do not rely on, Oh, I hear this all the time. Oh, we just use word of mouth.
And people say that like it's virtuous. Oh, I'm good. Cause I only use word of mouth. No,
you're incompetent because once you hit 20 participants game over, your expenses are
going to go through the roof, but your participants won't. You're actually hurting yourself.
Be a bit adventurous. Don't be self righteous about, I don't need marketing. You do because

(42:33):
it's not 2022, but you don't need pens. Stop with the pens. I've got 5 million pens.
I am going to veto that because coming over to your house and be able to stock up on pens,
support my, I lose the pens all the time is very beneficial to my ability to put words on paper.

(42:55):
You guys are so funny. I don't know anyone who ever chose a provider, both on a pen, but Hannah,
give it a crowd. No, no, no. It's kind of like the business, like not NDIS world,
because if you're spending that kind of money that I'm talking about your business card in the NDIS
sector, there's something very wrong, but it's like business cards in corporate world. When you
come across a nice business card, you stop and you admire the business card. And then about

(43:19):
four seconds later, you put in your pocket, you forget all about it. See, that's kind of like
either, especially if it's like one of those ones that are just slightly out of scale that don't fit
in the wallet slot or it doesn't line up with the rest of them. And it makes everything very,
Oh, that drives me. That drives me so insane. But a good pen, good pens can go a long way.

(43:41):
Ames easy to win over. All you got to do is give him a good pen and he'll follow you around all
day and buy you Maccas. I love it. Well, look, don't forget the curly fries.
But I can't remember. I can't remember the question I was going to ask you earlier,
but where you're saying around the SEO and the other things that providers can do with their
website and things, how important is deciding the name since everyone is care supports house

(44:09):
are us. You are so funny, Sam. It's like people have just gone through the dictionary and gone,
that's a word. I'll add the word care to it and we win. Okay. So it's like people get caught up on
the name and the logo. No one ever chose a provider based on the name or the logo. In fact,
have a look at most, most names and they're terrible. Okay. So when you're choosing a name,
you need to choose a name that you can get.com.au and.com. Okay. So why is my business called

(44:36):
athletic koala? There aren't many other businesses called athletic koala. Believe it or not. I can
get athletic koala.com.au easy. Okay. And, and so that's actually, aren't known for being athletic.
That's right. It's sort of quirky. Okay. If you can't stand on the edge of it, when you're in
marketing or something wrong, but it's, but it's memorable athletic koala. And, and it's also,

(44:56):
it's also clear that, you know, I'm a bit quirky. I'm deliberate about being quirky. I want to put
forward your best side. I'm willing to break the mold a bit. And then, so when you're choosing a
name, you want to show a bit of your personality, but even better would be show what your niche is.
So if your niche is say autism and SIL, you want a name that conveys, Hey, you know, like somehow

(45:16):
we don't always fit the mold, but we love hanging out. So something like that, but don't get caught
up on the name. Don't get caught up on the logo. No one cares. I had someone tell me a couple of,
if you're doing something about a logo, you're about to probably work it, walk your way into
a copyright infringement. It's like, and who cares? I mean, let's be honest, they're all purple and
gray because they're the NDIS colors. It's like someone told me, Oh, our solution to marketing

(45:38):
is we're going to get a new, a new logo. It's like, it might take a bit more than that. No one cares.
Okay. Like it's almost like a self-absorbed thing, like a teenager in their bedroom,
bike, you sure every poster is just perfect. No one cares. Cause no one else goes in there.
It's my MySpace page. Let me brand it how I want to.
Anyone younger MySpace is the precursor to Facebook and the rest of the social world.

(46:00):
Sam just told us he's 40 or older. That's it. We're good.
It's nice. The other thing with that is the, the people who repeat names. So you've got a
hundred different providers or car or called horizon or holistic or something. That's right.

(46:22):
Yeah. And it, it drives me a little bit bananas because it's really hard to remember, Oh, was that
horizon care or was it horizon disability support? Or was it, you know, and, and you're like,
I can't remember which one I hate.
You're so funny. It's like getting this to this stuff is how we got here was we said for marketing,

(46:47):
first have a fantastic website and second go and try 10 different things. Okay. And so regardless
of your name, regardless of your logo, have a good website, try 10 different things. No one cares
about your name. No one cares about your logo. They care about, do you care? Just find a way to
convey that you got this. And Sam, you were asking before some specifics around, you know,

(47:09):
you talked about, you have your website, you do your search engine optimization. I actually
ask people to suspend way less on their search engine optimization than anyone else. I saved
them on 30 grand about two months ago. I know because he'd been scammed. Like let's be real.
If you're paying anyone to do your search engine optimization on a thousand dollar a month plan,
$2,000 a month plan, I promise you it's completely wasted. And we're talking about a lot of providers

(47:32):
here. So I found someone who'd spent 30 grand on their search engine optimization. And I showed
him, cause I've got tools that do this, that doing that had not moved the needle one bit. And I showed
him all he would need to do to move the needle. And so he saved himself 30 grand going forward.
I found someone else who they'd spent, they're a small provider. They'd spent about five grand
on search engine optimization. I showed them as well. Everything that you've been told is

(47:57):
achieving this is achieving nothing. Here's that your people haven't even done what they claim to
do. And I proved it to them. And he went back to them and said, Hey, you know, do you guys want to
pay me back or do you want to put a really bad Google review on? And they chose to pay him back.
And then he took that same money and invested in a website that now has brought him so many people.
And it's like, if you go into an area that you know nothing about expect to get hurt. Okay. And

(48:21):
as soon as we're talking search engine optimization, expect to get hurt. So back in the day, people used
to go and put you on all these directories. Do you remember that? Okay. Hannah, what's the name of
your business? Plan Decoders. Okay. If I go and get plan decoders and put them on a hundred directories
in 2019, that'll be great. It'll make an impact with Google because Google in 2019 was like,

(48:43):
you know, a dumb eight year old. Whereas if I go and do that same strategy in 2024, Google's going
to be like, I know plan decoders are doing good luck with that. And it'll just ignore them.
So almost every cent I've seen spent on SEO in the last year has just been wasted on 2019
strategies. The way to make Google trust you now is to be very clear in your headings about what

(49:04):
you do. It's to be very deliberate about making sure that you've got a different page for each
service you do. If you're doing community participation, have a community participation
page. If you're doing SIL and your SIL is focused on say, complex mental health, have a page that's
about SIL, have another page that's about complex mental health, and then have a third page that's
about why it's important if you're dealing with complex mental health to have a SIL home that has

(49:27):
these seven factors in it. Okay. Just tell the truth, tell it well. And it's all about what you
have on your website. Now it's not about all these, this snake oil that most people are paying for.
And I know that only maybe half of people understand what I'm saying guys, but after whoever's
listening to this, you can save yourself some big money. And if anyone wants to get in touch with me,
Hannah, and show me what the SEO is doing, I can tell them about 10 minutes if it's money well

(49:51):
spent, see who else we can save 30 grand. Yeah. I think the thing that comes out of that is the
same sort of principle where participants are looking for support. You don't go to a marketer
that does marketing in the beauty or our space. That's right. Because the NDIS sector, as anyone

(50:11):
who's been in the industry long enough, is a behemoth and doesn't comply with general norms
in any way, shape or form and more depends on what geographical area and locations you're working in.
Because the East coast of Australia is vastly different to the West coast from the North to
the South. That's so true. If you go to Darwin, everything's called something pathways. If you go

(50:33):
to Sydney, everything's called something care. Okay. And if you want someone to help you get the
word out and if they don't speak in NDIS, you've already lost because participants can
see someone who's being fake a mile off. But even if they can't, their support coordinator can.
Okay. So somehow you need a website that the support coordinator sees you know what you're

(50:55):
doing. The participants feel like you care and you've got a clean conscience when you say it.
This has been a very insightful little chat, Michael. I think,
I don't know if you've got any more questions there, Hannah.
No. Good to go.
I think we're right to ask our last and final question and let's hope that I get it in the
right order this time around, which is in your ideal world. What would the NDIS look like?

(51:20):
Well, I think we've got to remember who's the NDIS here to serve? It's here to serve people.
Now the problem is that when you've got a big system that's nationwide, it's a system,
it can't serve people. So somehow the NDIS needs to get to a point where each individual person's
experience matters and what their individual needs are that matters. At the same time,

(51:44):
that's not rorted, which is why you have a system. So the issue we've got is that the NDIS right now
is not actually serving people because it's driven by a machine that doesn't care.
At the end of the day, the NDIS is not a person. A person cares, Sam cares, Hannah cares, Michael
cares, but a machine can't care. In fact, I was even talking to Chbt the other day about its

(52:07):
emotions. It said, I don't have emotions. I don't actually care. I'm just doing best interact with
you. Okay. And NDIS is like that. It doesn't care. So first is participants need to stop assuming
NDIS cares because it doesn't. It's there for a purpose and its purpose is not you. Its purpose is
everyone. Okay. Secondly, we need somehow to have a system where if someone sends an email, they get

(52:30):
a response. I've heard so many heartbreaking stories of people saying, my plan was broken.
I contacted my LIC. She wouldn't return my phone calls. I emailed her six times. She wouldn't return
my emails. And that is not the exception. That is almost the rule. Okay. So we need a system that
actually relates to people as people, but then we also need to have realistic expectations because

(52:51):
you and I have worked in NDIS world long enough to understand that there are a lot of people who view
the NDIS as a free money tree. It's like, hold on. You are not so important. You get to shake the
tree whenever you want and get free money. Okay. It's not here to, you know, we heard that, you know,
the stories years ago of, oh, I bought a trampoline for my child. It's like great, but that money then

(53:13):
didn't go to someone else who needed it. Okay. So it's almost like participants and providers can
get a very self-absorbed attitude. You know, someone paid for your services. They paid for it
with their tax. It didn't come from nowhere. We want to appreciate and value it. So I feel a bit
sad sometimes when I hear people denigrating a system that is actually paid for by someone,

(53:35):
someone paid for you to have this. Let's value it. But we also need providers who are not spending
their whole time doing red tape. So they can't actually help people. I know providers who are
spending so much time on their compliance that they can't help people. Here's a quick question
for you, Sam. How many NDIS providers does it take to change a light bulb?

(53:58):
Well, you first need the risk assessment done. You then need the OHS work health and safety
swims measure done. You'll then need to find someone to project manage it. We may or may not
have someone in a couple of days available for that. Once we get there, we may be able to source
one staff member to be able to come look at that light bulb. We will then need to put them in a

(54:18):
requisition form to the procurement officer to buy said light bulb, which will then have to go
after a handyman that will go to Bunnings to buy said light bulb. They might consider posting it
back in time for some new staff member to be orientated in the right amount of time.
And eventually you might have a two to one ratio to look at installing said light bulb.

(54:39):
I love it, Sam. And the thing is, if you go back to say September, there were so many companies I
was working for who had built all these things. And then was it September? Suddenly the NDIS
changed things. October. On a week's notice. And it's like, just after you've done all that,
the NDIS decides it won't have that sort of light bulb anymore. Okay. So it's like,

(55:01):
what sort of NDIS do we need? Well, we need one that's appreciated and valued by participants.
We need one that actually responds to people. And we need one like a bare minimum returns an email.
But more than that, we need participants who are brave enough and willing to say who they're there
to serve and who they're not. Now I help people do that on their websites, but the reality is

(55:23):
all day, every day, if you're not clear about who you serve and who you don't, you're actually
deceiving people because you're trying to look like you can do things you can't do. And look,
when you've got your first three participants, that's normal. But after your first 10 or 12,
you know who you're serving. Let's be real about it. And it's like, if we had this sort of NDIS
where we remember we're here to help people, but we don't end up with some sort of entitled attitude,

(55:47):
then we win the game, you know, and, and we also win the game. If, if the buck stops with someone
right now with NDIS, the buck stops with no one. So no one's personally responsible for making sure
that Sam Rosenbaum gets what he needs or that Hannah Redford gets what she needs. Okay. Now
in no other business do you have that situation? Okay. And that's where I'm like, if you're the
director of a company and you're not willing to give out your phone number to at least your,

(56:10):
your 20 most frequent clients, there's something wrong. Okay. The bucks got to stop with someone.
And so that's why for me, I feel like I'm doing my bit because I get to pick and choose who I work
for. And I'm very good at helping an NDIS business. I have say seven to 15 participants get to the
next stage, which is say 30 to 40. That's what I'm good at. And if I do what I'm good at, and if they

(56:31):
do what they're good at, and if Hannah and Sam, you do what you're good at, we get where we want
to go and we'll actually serve people really well. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
It's been a great conversation. It's been so much fun. And I look forward to people sending me an
email. You can find me, if you have any question, like, like I said before, Hannah, I actually
respond to emails. I know that's weird in NDIS world, but I do. If you have any question at all,

(56:53):
you can get my email, my personal email from athletic koala.com.au. You asked me a question.
I promise to respond. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me and good luck on your quest guys.
I really appreciate the service that you're doing to people. Thanks Michael. We appreciate it. Have
a good one. Bye. You guys are the real deal. This is awesome. Thank you for listening. Please share

(57:15):
with people you know until next time. As the Green Brothers say, don't forget to be awesome.

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Episode 54 - Michael Clark

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 54 - Michael Clark