January 26, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Hannah chats with Geordie from Forbes Care about his journey to become an OT, his interest in mental health, and the challenges currently facing OTs and other allied health providers in the NDIS. This is a great chat, and we know you will appreciate Geordie's passion and insights.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We acknowledge the original owners of the land on which we podcast, whose stories were told for
(00:05):
thousands of years. Today we are recording in Mianjin. We pay our respects to elders past
and present who may be listening. Sovereignty was never ceded. A quick note before we get started,
that there may be some swearing in today's podcast. If you don't like swearing or usually
listen with children in the car, you have been warned. This episode of What in the NDIS Now is
(00:32):
brought to you by Astalti. Astalti is the software solution for NDIS professionals built by NDIS
professionals. Astalti is my go-to software and Astalti is trusted and loved by hundreds of other
NDIS providers. I love how easy it is to use and how it keeps all my participant information,
(00:56):
notes and invoicing all in one place available to me anytime from any device. Sign up now for
your 14-day free trial. Head to Astalti.com.au to sign up now. See for yourself how much easier
managing all your NDIS business needs are by using Astalti. Thanks again to Astalti for sponsoring
(01:20):
today's episode. You're listening to What in the NDIS Now, a podcast where I, Hannah Redford,
and my friend Sam Rosenbaum interview participants and providers about all things NDIS.
(01:44):
Welcome everyone to this episode of What in the NDIS Now. With me today I have the OT, Jordie.
Awesome. Thank you for having me, Hannah. I'm really excited to have a chat today.
(02:04):
Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you too. I am an admirer of your work.
Thank you. So as we always start the show, where did you grow up?
So I grew up in rural Queensland, so a couple of hours from where I am now on the Sunshine Coast.
(02:25):
Small country town, not much to do there, but honestly wouldn't trade that experience for the
world. I think I learned a lot of life experiences early on at a younger age, growing up on land and
just having, I guess, opportunity to mature at a younger age. Sounds a little bit cocky, but just
being able to be taught those life skills was a great opportunity. So I grew up out there,
(02:49):
again, grew up in a single family household as well, so I sort of bounced between a couple of
different spots between small country towns and more rural cities. It was an interesting time,
but much enjoy where I am on the Sunshine Coast now.
Yeah, yeah. So did you have a farm?
My parents themselves didn't, but I did spend a bit of time living at my grandmother's property
(03:14):
with my father. So it was on like a cattle farm.
Ah, cattle. Interesting.
Yeah. And my mother and stepfather have dairy farm as well, so I spent some time out there. So
a lot of early mornings and dirty work with animals.
Yeah, yeah. And cows in particular. Are you good at spotting the difference between
(03:35):
types of cows?
I probably was at one point, but no, that was never my strength. I don't think I really have
had an interest in it. So I never really invested any brain power into learning the big differences.
I know, yeah, some, but not many.
Yeah, fair. So how did you get into the disability sector?
(03:58):
This, I guess, will be a bit of a two-part response. I was actually thinking about this
after you gave me the questions when we last spoke. And I guess part of it is I grew up with
siblings and step-siblings and cousins with, or not siblings, step-siblings and cousins with
disability, with autism, I have a cousin with fragile X. And I guess just being surrounded
(04:22):
from, or surrounded with people with disability from such a young age, it kind of made it normal.
In a way, for lack of a better word, I was just used to people with disability. It was never
this taboo subjects talk about disability, or it was never overly shocking to me seeing the
difficulty that people can have with disability, the behavioral dysregulation side of things.
(04:47):
And seeing a different life stage outcomes, obviously growing up alongside them.
So I think a part of it was that because I found it natural and comfortable in a sense,
because that's what I was used to. But I guess the real big thing that got me into it was
from a young age, I wanted to be, I guess, like any young boy, I wanted to be like my old man.
And he was a diesel fitter by trade. And I was interested in that. But at the time, especially
(05:13):
people in the trade weren't treated well. So he was pretty open and vocal about,
no, you're not doing that because it's not worth it. You're not going to get treated well. The
money's not great, all sorts of things. And I guess being the natural problem solver and a bit of a
smart aleck that I am, I was like, well, how can I be like my dad without being my dad? So I decided
I'd go down the military route. And initially, I was wanting to join as like an avionics technician
(05:37):
in the Air Force, and then it changed to a diesel fitter in the army. And then by the end of it,
I was just like, just anything in the military. Because I really guess had that fondness and
appreciation for what they do for looking after Australians and the defence force side of things.
But yeah, so I spent my entire life wanting to work towards that goal. And then around
(05:58):
15, 16 years old, I ended up getting well, actually, probably 14, 15 years old, ended up
having a really bad knee injury playing rugby league. And because I'd had knee pain from a
young age with a condition called oscrux slattest disease, or syndrome now, I was just so used to
having chronic and severe knee pain. And then after this injury, we didn't actually realise there was
another injury, we just thought it made that worse. So I walked around on a torn ACL and damaged
(06:23):
ACL and a couple other significant injuries for about a year. We were able to get like the
investigation done before our GP was like, Oh, no, there's actually something a bit more here again,
growing up in rural Queensland, the resources weren't great. So after having that injury
discovered, having surgery, having a terrible rehab process, it was kind of just the span of
(06:45):
thrown in my works at such a young age, it's weird to say now that I'm a bit older. But at the time,
I was just so lost. I didn't know where I was going to go, what I was going to do was just that's
what I put everything towards. And I was just sort of floating around and hopeless in a sense,
we really did get into a period of depression and anxiety around making those life choices,
(07:09):
especially with at that age around 15, 16, we were looking at pathways, people go into university,
people going into trade, I didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't want to get anything done
to do, I didn't want to get anything into anything overly physical, because my knee was so bad, I
couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without being in pain. And it was actually at a cousin's wedding
that I met an OT, we had a bit of a chat around what he is and how can return people to doing
(07:33):
the things that they once loved. And I guess, after having a really horrible rehab process and
not having good experience with physiotherapy, I was like out of the two, that sounds like the
one I want to do. And initially, I picked OT to work with veterans in DVA. But as I sort of got
throughout my practice, or my university course, I was sort of pulled more towards the disability
(07:58):
side and like the neuro. So thinking a lot of like post stroke in that rehab, again, getting
people that had their goals, their livelihoods, whatever they loved doing that they lost. And I
wanted to be able to get them back to some semblance of doing that or doing that activity,
because I felt I could relate really well to that. So that's kind of what got me into, I guess,
(08:19):
the OT and disability space. And from that point, I really gravitated again towards the mental health
side of things, what I'm working in now, the psychosocial disability. Because again, I've
gone through my own experiences with depression, anxiety. Again, I can feel like I have that lived
experience. But also, I feel like it's a really stigmatized area. People do not understand that
(08:43):
it's a grossly misunderstood from a societal and like government level. It's looked at the wrong
way. People just don't appreciate the, I guess, the broad impact it can have. So again, wanted to
be able to voice up for, I guess, a population that isn't as supported as it could be. So it's
sort of just been my drift into that space. I love this story so much. I'm so excited on so
(09:07):
many levels. So kind of like, where do I start? But I think I want to start at, what did you say
that name of that syndrome is that you have? Oschgud-Schlatter's disease. So it's like a
growth plate disease in the knees. So I can't remember the specifics of it, because I was
(09:27):
diagnosed with this at like eight or nine years old. I still have the knee pain today at 28,
which is wild. But I think it's like a very large growth plate or oversized, which causes knee pain.
I am probably, probably, incredibly inaccurate with it. But it caused a whole array of issues.
Like I couldn't, like it caused one thing called the theater knee, which essentially, if you're
(09:51):
sitting with your knees bent for any period of time, it sort of like freezes. And the pain,
that comes out of that when you have to extend your knees, just extreme. And imagine like a
nine year old kid at school trying to sit still, but in severe pain. So you fidget, you move and
you get in trouble for moving. So it was a really tricky condition that I don't think was appreciated
(10:15):
a lot at the time. Thankfully you do kind of grow out of it. But yeah, it was pretty gnarly at the
time. Yeah. And yet you decided to play rugby. Yeah, I was a bit of an idiot. So I think like
that goes back into like why I was so lost one after I had the knee injury and decided that the
military wasn't the way for me is I wasn't then. I still don't really see myself now as an academic,
(10:39):
which is ironic after graduating as an auntie. But like, I just don't have, I didn't feel I had
that brain. So I was like, you know, I'm going in, I'm into the military, let's do all the big
burly things people in the military do. So I picked rugby and paying the price for it now.
But I think that is a very stereotypical boy thing in a rural area to do. Like,
(11:04):
as society, we go, if you're a boy, you do this. If you're a girl, you do this. And, you know,
nobody thinks about the consequences of everybody just being funneled this way or that way. You know,
it's daft. Yeah. I'm also really interested in you because you are a male OT. And you are in an
(11:34):
industry that is female dominated. And, you know, I mean, I'm not revealing anything to you by saying
that. Oh, did you know? Anyway, the point of what I was saying is that even where you work,
(11:56):
you're the only male OT. How do you find that? Well, since I guess we last spoke, we now do
have another male OT, but there's only two of us now. But no, it is interesting. Like I say,
we're kind of a unicorn. There's a lot of us, but at the same time, there's not that many because
it is such a female dominated industry. It's really interesting. I think it does give me
(12:21):
at times a unique perspective or unique opportunity to make connections with
some participants that a female OT may not be able to, just given past experiences and things
like that. One thing I noticed a lot when I was working really though was, I guess, just based on,
I guess, if we're linking it to cohort effect, a lot of the men out there responded well to me
(12:42):
going out to see them and speak to them because I can go out there and I can really put on my
bogan accent and speak to them in a one-to-one way sense that like makes sense to them that they're
used to that they're comfortable with. So when I ask questions of like, okay, how do you go up
in your bottom? How do you do these things? Like I asked those questions. It's not a walls are up
because I'm able to go in and be relatable. It's helped break down those walls. So yeah,
(13:06):
definitely has its strengths. I also find now in my role working more in psychosocial, if I'm talking
to men in general around men's mental health, again, having that lived experience, I can relate.
I can say I've been in similar situations or I've walked a mile in my shoes to a degree.
And I think that again helps destigmatize. I can go, okay, well, I've spoken to many men like
(13:30):
yourself. That's okay to feel that way. You shouldn't be feeling ashamed for feeling that way.
You shouldn't feel stupid for feeling that way. I felt that way too. And it gives me that ability
to be like, okay, let's take a deep breath and just start again. So I find that yeah, it's a really
good, I guess a benefit for working as an OT. Again, mainly because it is that female dominated
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field. It just gives another perspective that some clients relate to more.
Yeah. And I think men's mental health is often overlooked because men typically stereotyping
don't talk about their feelings and their mental health. And we brought this up with,
(14:16):
in the episode with Simon Rinn and he works as a counselling social worker for men. And I love that
you are on that similar trajectory as an OT. It's great. And I'm sure you have a wide array
(14:41):
of things that you can do beyond just talking to men. You can do that, but I think that focus
is really needed because otherwise, we lose too many men to just not talking like some people do.
(15:06):
Absolutely. And that's probably a key thing again, that I probably missed in the previous question
around where did I grow up? Like I said, I grew up in rural Queensland and men's mental health,
their mental health in general, but if we're talking about men's mental health, it's not spoken about
it is heavily stigmatised. It's either a teaspoon of concrete and toughen up and it is really just
(15:31):
overlooked. And unfortunately, I know people that have died to suicide, I've lost friends that have
died to suicide from that region just because it is so stigmatised. So it is, again, having that
personal connection to it. It is really meaningful to me to go out there and make a change.
Yeah, fantastic. I want to talk a little bit now that we, I was able to go through and ask those
(15:59):
few questions through your story, which is great. And I really appreciate your openness and telling
us about your story. I want to talk a little bit about what you're doing now. So you work for
a company that just does occupational therapy, which I love so, so much. I sing constantly.
(16:23):
Well, I don't sing, but I talk about singing these songs, but anyway, I constantly bang on to
people about doing one thing and doing it well. And you don't have to do all the things in the
NDIS space. It's unnecessary. And actually you will attract people to you more if you do one
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thing and do it really, really well. And so this is another reason why I'm so excited to talk to
you. So can you tell us a little bit about the company and your role in it?
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I work for Forbes Care, an OT company on the Sunshine Coast.
(17:13):
We're based up in Budroom. Yeah, it's an amazing company. I admit, I've gone from company to
company to company that does have that one-stop shop mentality of having every allied health banner
under the sun, which to a degree is really cool and I can appreciate the thought. But when it comes
to practice, it is so much nicer to focus on that quality over quantity. And that was my, I guess,
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the catalyst in my decision deciding to go to Forbes Care was one in myself. I felt like as a
sole practitioner, I'd worked as the only OT at every organization I'd worked at really, that I'd
hit my ceiling and I didn't have any other OTs around me or if I did, they didn't stick around for
very long because the burnout rates were so high in those other organizations. So I went in, I was
like, you know what, I want to go back in and act like a new grad and just learn all these things
(17:57):
from a team of OTs. And that has been probably the smartest decision I've ever made in my life.
Being able to sit down in a room with, you know, 10, 15, 20 other OTs at any time and just talk OT
has been amazing. And that's kind of now that I've stepped into the clinical training or clinical
educator role, it's been something I've really wanted to lean heavily into. Drawing on all the
(18:23):
previous experiences I had that haven't been so positive. And now that I'm in the position to make
change within the company is, okay, well, this is what I've been through. This is what burnt me out.
This is what we need to avoid. So to avoid that, we need to have regular PD days where we get
together every two months to focus on key gaps in the team. I want to have like special interest
(18:44):
groups for certain topics. So we've got a therapy group, we've got a mental health group that will
be starting up again next year. But also as we bring in new grads, like, okay, well, they're
going to be scared because it's a lot, it's a big transition going from fourth year student to first
year OT. So to get them a group as well to make sure they have their opportunity to one learn,
but also be a part of a community and be a part of something that's bigger than themselves. To
(19:09):
again, help them bring them back down to earth to breathe, to focus and really that way their cup
stays full so they can then give out to the clients. I love this culture too of everyone is
connected and you get to go back and not feel so alone because you have, you deliberately have
(19:33):
these days where everyone gets together and is able to go, oh gosh, this has been really an
away or have you seen this new development? How exciting is this? And, you know, I really love
that. And I love that Forbes Care has thought about this and then made your position where you,
(20:00):
you are there to sort of spearhead those kinds of things and create this really lovely culture.
And the other thing that I'm fascinated by is everyone I've spoken to at Forbes Care is really
lovely. I'm like, how is this possible? There's got to be someone who's not as like lovely.
(20:25):
Like lovely. How are they just attracting these really lovely people? It is so interesting to me.
I can definitely credit that to like Anna, our business development manager, Kelly herself for
setting up such a positive culture. Jess, a clinical lead who helps in the interviewing process.
(20:47):
That is something that is, I guess, we push so hard is that if you're stepping into this team,
we want to make sure you are a really good fit, not just from a clinical experience perspective,
but from that culture perspective, because we try to recognize that it doesn't take much to bring
a team down, especially for working in the spaces complex and frustrating as the NDIS. If we have a
(21:11):
team member that like all person that may not fit in as well, it's not going to be beneficial in the
long run. So we like they do such a good job of finding people that are the right fit values that
align. But we also just have so much accountability and open discussions and transparency around
what Forbes expects, I guess, as an organization. So we regulate every supervision section we have,
(21:34):
we go, okay, well, has there been something that you've done that's contributed towards
the Forbes K values this week? And it may just be something really small that like I've helped
another clinician with a report or I was having a discussion with a clinician, they said something
I was like, actually, that's not safe. Make sure you flag that with your supervisor and talk that
through because we need to change that before you go back for another appointment. And it just helps
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everyone feel like we're on one team, which is another one of our key values. And again, like
you say, it just helps have you that sense of connection. Because again, in the NDIS space,
when you're going through, it can be frustrating, it's disheartening, there's a lot of things that
don't go our way as therapists of AT getting denied, homebods getting denied, funding getting
cut. And we take a lot of that on board, it frustrates us as much, not as much, but just as
(22:20):
it does the clients. So having such a proactive approach towards making sure our team is feeling
supported and feeling heard and recognized, I think is just as important as investing into
the education side of things. Yeah, exactly. I think too, it breeds on what you've done really
(22:41):
well is that each clinician can kind of pick their own specialty and kind of run with that,
which I love because I think there's a, not an issue, but can be a complication when you get a
(23:02):
generalist OT trying to do and support all people at all times and do all of it. And you just like,
yeah, but you can't possibly be really good at all of it. Like it's, it's just not,
not physically possible. And so I think having the ability to go, I'm really interested in
(23:28):
pediatrics. I'm really interested in homebods. I'm really interested in mental health. Like
that's really exciting. Yeah. Now that I guess I've been with Ford, so like doing a half year,
it does seem like a bit of a no brainer that that's not the approach or that like that is
the approach everyone should take. And it surprises me that people don't. Like if you want to get the
(23:49):
best out of people, give them something that motivates them. I love mental health and love
working with adults and some adolescents, but you put me in a room with a pediatric client.
I'm not the OT to be in that room. I can do the job and I've done it in the past, but as you can
say, talking to me now, I'm quite monotone and low energy kid with ASD that wants to bounce off the
(24:10):
walls. We're not going to, we're not going to mesh as a client and therapist. So there's like, to me,
there's no point investing or putting that clinician in that space if they're not going to
get great outcomes for a client. Not saying that you might not learn that they actually love that
space, but that's something like you say, we take really seriously. We'll like work with the
clinician to give them a generalist role, but if they find anything that they enjoy and like that
(24:33):
niche, like home mods or mental health or pediatrics or DVA or whatever it may be, what they're wanting
to really look at and like, if it fits into the referrals that we're receiving, we will help them
as much as we can. They'll still keep a generalist sort of role, but if they're excited to come into
work and motivated to come into work, why not give them that referral basis? So yeah, it just makes so
(24:58):
much more sense from a longevity side of things as well.
Yeah, absolutely. So I, for the listeners, I do want to get a few sort of key things out of the way
about what area and locations your OTs go to and the referral process, like how they refer to you.
(25:25):
Yeah, so we work everywhere from like North of Gympie, the Gympie region. We have an OT that goes
out to Kilkeaven. Every now and then we have other OTs that are going to be reaching out to like the
Tin Can Bay and Kooluloo Cove area all the way down to like North Brisbane, Morayfield area.
And I believe we may be even looking into like Ipswich in the New Year as well. And then all of
(25:47):
the Sunshine Coast and the Hinterland we access as well for NDIS, Prep Care Package, DVA. So anything
in that realm, I'm more than happy to reach out to us. For the referral side of things, depending on,
I guess, the supports that you've got around you, if you've got a support coordinator, I'd say liaise
with them and say, I want to give Forbes Care a try, they'll be able to reach out to us. Otherwise,
(26:10):
we've got like an online referral portal on our website. So you're able to go through there and
just submit all your information and then our admin team will reach out to complete further questions
or other sort of intake protocols with you. Amazing. Great. Thank you. And yes, Anna is really,
really lovely and great to talk to you. So that's helpful. Is there anything more you want to talk
(26:38):
about in the OT space that is happening or any trends you're seeing in the OT space?
It's hard to say. I think some of the trends we're seeing will probably come into more like the next
question around the changes that are happening in the space. It's a bit just, I guess, unclear
(27:00):
around the future of things with the change of hopefully getting more therapy back in place
rather than reporting. They're probably the key ones I'm noticing specifically in the OT space.
So that brings me to in your ideal world, what would the future of the NDIS look like?
So yeah, after you first put this question to me, I struggled to come down or narrow it down. I even
(27:24):
went up to my team and I'm like, guys, what would the perfect world be like to you? And after some
deliberation and thinking like the key things that I thought of, I guess, like the key changes I'd
love to see would be better accountability from the agency, much better consistency or improved
consistency from the agency as well. And then transparency are probably the key things that I
(27:47):
would love to see. Like, I guess, if we go back to the accountability side of things, something that
I've seen so much regularly or heard so much regularly is like we've sent off an AT application
or an FCA or a report or whatever it may be. For one of our OTs actually she sent off complex
home mods. And after however long of chasing it up, we come back and get told that they never
(28:09):
received it. They lost the quotes. They never had the report. And like, we can find it in two seconds
in an email thread. So those sorts of things do frustrate me as a clinician. Like one thing that
comes to mind of late was I had a client that we were just applying for a scooter for to allow
them to get out in the community with their dog due to their disability, psychosocial and physical.
(28:31):
They can't walk very far and they're scared of walking very far. But they live in just this
beautiful spot right next to the beach and they want to be able to get down there. So we applied
for a scooter. And after 160 days, we had no response, no advice of a yes or no from the agency.
That's with the coordinator or the client's coordinator and the client themselves calling
(28:54):
up the NDIS to be like, hey, where's this at? And nine times out of 10, they would say,
we don't know or it's in process or speak to your OT because they'll be able to tell you even though
after we submit the reports, OT is the last one to ever know. Which again, that's this whole other
issue. But it got to the point where this client admitted and disclosed thoughts of suicidality.
(29:15):
So it's going like, okay, well, it's taken that long to this point where this client's feeling
that poorly of their life that they want to or thinking about these things. So we were like,
I had to submit another letter going, hey, guys, we send this on this date. It's been over 160 days
because of the lack of communication and outcomes. This client has admitted suicidal ideation. We
(29:38):
need an outcome now. And thankfully, that was able to get it escalated overnight. And it's been
approved and it's been delivered now. But it's the fact that it has to get to that point.
That really frustrates me. And it's really tricky as well and difficult as well when us as OTs,
we go out and do these massive reports that may seem a bit over the top because we're told to put
all the information in there. So we're told they're too long. So we cut back on information,
(30:00):
then we're told that there's insufficient evidence. So funding's cut and then you have to go through
change. It's just a bit of a rigmarole. So for me, it really does underscore why the OT burnout
rate has gone from seven years to two. But that's probably like one of the key things.
I would love to see from the agency is just better accountability and efficiency in those processes,
because it is really tricky from our perspective as an OT because we submit something to inquiries
(30:25):
and then we go, okay, in the scheme of things, that's our job done until we're given the yes or
no. But nine times out of 10, it's then all the OT hasn't done this or the client or support
coordinator calls them and then something comes up that they needed additional information that we
didn't know about because again, we're typically the last ones to know these things. So that's
probably like, well, that's the key thing I was thinking about. Like I was saying, the consistency
(30:48):
is another thing that is a big gap. And I think you mentioned in your podcast with Simon Rin is
you can submit the exact same tool with all the exact same outcome measure from a report or an
assessment with a really good report and two clients will get two different outcomes based on
that. And I understand that I don't want to just sit here like I'm whinging and I understand that
(31:09):
the amendments that have come out are aiming for this with the needs-based assessment.
So I'm looking forward to hearing more about that in the new year. But after being in my
seventh year of practice now, in the end, I assume a little bit cynical that a bureaucrat somewhere
in Canberra is going to make changes to what is co-designed. But I'm hoping I'm pretty wrong there.
(31:29):
Have you listened to this podcast before? We're not optimistic about anything.
I just don't want to seem like a negative Nellie, especially because I am still treating OT in the
space. It is just a bit like that. Like, yes, we've got all these promises and they are making
(31:51):
changes, which is great because if you remain stagnant, that's where issues arise and we don't
evolve. But the key thing we can refer to is they made changes to the funding and what is and is not
NDIS funded support. And they decide to cut art and music therapy saying it's not evidence-based
despite there being such robust evidence available to demonstrate that it is beneficial.
(32:12):
So it is just frustrating. And again, when we're the OT that goes in there and someone asks for
something or say I want to do the service and then we have to go, we can try but I don't think that's
going to be a funded support based on these changes. We then cop that back. And I get that
these clients are burnt out and upset and frustrated with the system. But again, if we're walking into
four appointments a day, however many a day and we cop that same treatment for every one,
(32:34):
it's difficult because again, as therapists, we're not immune to this. We go in there, we feel the
frustration of the clients. As much as we don't want to, we will take some of that on board and
we can, it just stacks. So not having, I guess, that consistency across the board, we don't really
know at times where we need to go and what support we need to provide and because how to get those
(32:56):
outcomes at times. We have that comfort, we find what works and then something changes and then we
don't know where to go from there and it's just tricky. And I guess that just leads into the last
point I was thinking about is that transparency is like, again, they're doing it now. I'm really
happy because they've got the documents of what is a NDIS funded support and what isn't. But it's
just really difficult because we don't know exactly what's needed for each application. We can go in
(33:20):
there and try our best and thankfully being in my team, we have a lot of resources at hand and a
lot of clinical experience at hand so we can answer that. But if we're thinking new grad or sole
clinicians or small teams, it's really hard to learn these things or figure it out because you're
going to make mistakes and unfortunately if mistakes are made or information is missed, then
client's not going to get the outcomes and then they've got to go back to square one with an
(33:43):
appeal or AAT and it's just a whole process that really drags that. And when some of these
applications or reviews take six months already, if you then have to go through the appeal process,
that could be another six months at a minimum, especially at the moment, things are really taking
their time. So it's just a tricky spot to be in. So they're like the key things that I'd love to see
(34:04):
is the other accountability, consistency and transparency.
I really love this answer and the way that you have talked through it. You have perfectly
articulated a lot of my frustration with this system and I'm not even an OT, you know, and
(34:25):
but I do feel that from OTs and you can't like often think about how freaking annoying it
constantly is to have, like you said, the inquiries email, they just lose documents and I'm like, how
(34:47):
is that possible? How can you just lose a whole report? What are you doing with it that you are
losing it?
And it baffles me and it also actually leads to another thing I didn't even think to mention,
but is like when we do a really detailed report and what we consider a really high quality report
and then we go through a plan outcome, we get no feedback and then an outcome is made and it's
(35:13):
like ridiculously undercutting what we've recommended and potentially even reduce what the
client was previously receiving. And I get they want to make the scheme sustainable, but when
there's no communication back and forth, it really gives that impression that they're not reading
the reports. And that goes back to the comment of, you know, the
we may write long reports and we do at times, but like working in the psychosocial space, I have to
(35:37):
write narratively to let them understand how that disability impacts them because the amount of
times where I've had a client that wants, you know, one-to-one support in the community or an
extra couple of hours in the week in the community one-to-one, but because they can physically get
up and move around, it's denied, but they don't really understand that for a person with
psychosocial disability, getting out of bed can be one of the most difficult things in the morning.
(36:02):
It just, it baffles me at times. And I know there has been instances where
planners have allegedly stated they've not even read the OT reports. I don't know if you've been
on LinkedIn of late, but there was an open letter to Mr. Shorten about a client that had muscular
dystrophy. I can't remember which type, but he had his funding cut, had a cardiac event and because
(36:24):
of that, he struggled to get to the phone in time to call QAS. If he had his funding, it wasn't cut
for whatever reason, he would have been able to do it. Change of circumstance was submitted,
nothing changed and unfortunately that client passed away. So it's, I know that is an isolated
incident, but if one's happened, it's probably happened elsewhere as well. So it's just like
those frustrations that can come up with it. Again, you can go in there, you can give it your all,
(36:48):
you can do your best, you can tick the boxes as much as you can, but if it falls on deaf ears
or it's not looked at or whatever it may be, we're just not seeing the change and we're not getting
the outcomes for our clients and in some circumstances, you can have really bad outcomes.
So yeah, that just really brings it back as like we need that transparency, we really need that
accountability. Yeah, the accountability for planners to actually read the reports, how
(37:12):
amazing would that be? I do often get feedback from allied health professionals and this was
really obvious at the beginning of 2024, we did a live show like we are doing in February, on the
(37:33):
12th of February, we've got a new live show. One of the questions we were asked was what is the point
of even doing these reports when they're not read? And I said to everyone and I will say it to anyone
who asks me, even if that immediate planner or the LAC doesn't read it, someone along the line will
(38:00):
because when you then have to put in a review or if you have to go to ART, that is when those
reports are more seriously looked at. So your reports still have to be there, your reports still
have to be on point and still have to be awesome and have all of the evidence because yes, they
(38:27):
will be read at some point, even if the immediate feedback is we don't give a shit, we're not reading
it, still write those reports as if someone will read it or the coroner will read it.
Absolutely and that's exactly what I say to my team is when they're not sure about level of
(38:48):
detail, I'll say put it in. It really comes back to the ethos I learned when I was doing placements
at Queensland Health was good notes, good defense, no notes, no defense. Yes, that's more in the
evidence, the realm of if you get subpoenaed, having your backup there, but it's the same thing
if we go in and go, I mentioned this in the report and this page in the subsection and put it in my
(39:10):
recommendations and there's a clear link to the clinical evidence and you've ignored it and not
funded it and it's resulted in this. It is our way to back ourselves up and be like well actually
that's on you, we have made these recommendations and this is the historical evidence of needing
those supports. So yeah, I agree 100% but I guess one thing that frustrates me as well with this whole
(39:33):
process is actually a comment that I saw yesterday from Bill Shorten in I guess a press release or an
update was we want to cut down on these 80 page reports. I don't know if you can find an OT out
there that enjoys writing reports of such length because it takes a lot of brain power, it takes a
lot of time, it's exhausting. A lot of us became therapists to do therapy, not to sit behind a
(39:56):
screen and write a report. So again, I understand these changes may come in place with the needs
based assessment that's currently being co-designed and I'm hopeful that it does but it's really
tricky when comments like that are being made. It really riled me up when I read it, I need to take
a deep breath but if you're going to make those comments but then we do provide reports that aren't
(40:16):
80 pages long and then you go well there's not enough evidence, we're not going to fund anything,
we're going to cut the funding in half. It's just mind-boggling. Another incident I'm thinking of
was I've had a client years ago that was low vision and during COVID they didn't leave their
house because they live with their grandparents and didn't want to risk bringing it back to them
(40:37):
so they cut their funding because they didn't access the community and then when I set in the
plan review because this client didn't have a support coordinator, I was like okay well
they need this back, they're going back to university, the world's different now.
Their response that they initially met me with is well they have a guidance dog, I'm like cool yeah,
guidance dog can help them down there but it's not going to help them find the right kind of milk or
(40:58):
those sort of items as well. It can help them navigate but it doesn't replace another person
being there. Also a dog can't drive a car and we don't want to rely on taxis and like that was a
genuine response that I got. I want to see the dog drive the car though. Yeah it would be amazing
but it's just like things like that and comments like that that just kind of
make your face palm a little bit. It's a little bit upsetting that a person that clearly doesn't
(41:23):
look at this individual, the person that's looking at them as a number and a budget,
they're making the decisions and I get it is an insurance scheme that is always going to be an
underlying factor but we're meant to be helping people with disability here. We need to put the
person first so that is one thing I'll admit that has got me excited about the co-design nature of
this. They are bringing in people with disability, they are bringing in industry experts so hopefully
(41:47):
crossing fingers and toes this provides positive outcomes for the industry but it's I guess a wait
and see. It's really tricky as well because with the training that they're putting in now and the
webinars they're providing now we try and ask them questions to get a bit of clarity so we know what
to tell our clients and you get a telegraphed response that's been scripted for them. I did
(42:08):
one recently we're asking about psychosocial disability and how they're going to access supports
like especially if it's an episodic sort of condition like schizophrenia where they may
relapse with psychosis and need increased supports during those periods and they said oh you'll just
work with your planner. That's pretty much the response we go on like cool that doesn't happen
now is it going to happen then but also I'm not going to do a change of circumstance every time
(42:31):
that one of my clients has psychosis and needs increased support so whatever it is so it just
again it's that lack of transparency we don't know what we're walking into. Again I've seen
the roadmaps, I've seen the different stages that we've got and have a very vague idea but
it's a bit daunting thinking about what it's going to be like up until June next year when
we're in that late stage so it's an interesting time to be in OT.
(42:54):
Exactly the other thing they tend to do is politicians speak in
roundabouts and you're like no hang on a second you didn't actually answer the question
and that irritates me so much and shows their complete lack of understanding of the space.
(43:17):
Yeah I feel you. Yeah well it even goes down to like I went to the Australian Assistive Technology
Conference on the Gold Coast earlier this year and one of the presenters there Sarah Collinson
was talking about like home modifications and housing options being put on the outlist
and the fact that she contacted her connections or one of her connections at the NDIA and went
(43:42):
hey are you aware of this and they went oh no that's a mistake or something along those lines and
they had to change it after the fact so to me it just feels like things are a bit rushed and
hazard and especially with the time frame of like those things only coming out 24 hours
before the law were put in place on the 3rd of October it seems like things are just a bit
rushed which is again are on course with the agency unfortunately with rolling out things
(44:07):
like the pace changes are a good example of that I know that's been a frustration for our practice
manager but there's just so many things that have just seemed a bit haphazard and unplanned and
again going back to the change of art and music therapy that's another example of a rash decision
being made that's impacted a lot of people and businesses so many people have closed their doors
(44:28):
and now all of a sudden that's all out again until next year when the independent review comes out
well if someone's already shut down they're not going to open up again so there's so many real
outcomes that have been coming from these changes that are happening overnight and people are feeling
it the clients are feeling it providers are feeling it and that's kind of it seems like it's
falling on deaf ears at first again it's nice to see that they've reevaluated this based on the
(44:50):
feedback from families and from therapists but again the fact that's had to get to this stage
for the change to happen is the frustrating part so it would be nice to see things more slowly and
gradually put out with more consideration of evolving people within the industry whether it's
practicing ot is practicing physios practicing practicing speeches clients obviously we need
(45:11):
them front and center to make sure every person and every party of this industry is taken into
account and again they're not going to please everyone but doing as much as possible would be
great absolutely exactly exactly well geordie it's been so wonderful to have you on the podcast i
(45:32):
have loved chatting with you this has been an awesome conversation so thank you so much for
coming on the podcast no thank you for having me and listening to me rant for the last 60 minutes
but i know it's been great and i really enjoy listening to the other podcast i'm happy to finally
be on yeah awesome thank you until next time bye hey podcast fans ready for a podcast event that's
(45:59):
as unique as you are mark your calendars for february 12 2025 the what in the ndis now podcast
is going live and you're invited but here's the twist our dress code is your favorite outfit
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(46:27):
what's in store we're doing a mini trade show networking event we'll have an expert panel
discussion we'll have fun laughter and valuable insights providers want to stand out you can
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(46:53):
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don't miss the chance to connect learn and have a blast to secure your spot or membership email
what in the ndis pod at gmail.com or call hannah see you there in your fabulous outfits thank you
(47:19):
for listening please share with people you know until next time as the green brothers say don't
forget to be awesome
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(00:05):
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(00:32):
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(00:56):
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(01:20):
today's episode. You're listening to What in the NDIS Now, a podcast where I, Hannah Redford,
and my friend Sam Rosenbaum interview participants and providers about all things NDIS.
(01:44):
Welcome everyone to this episode of What in the NDIS Now. With me today I have the OT, Jordie.
Awesome. Thank you for having me, Hannah. I'm really excited to have a chat today.
(02:04):
Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you too. I am an admirer of your work.
Thank you. So as we always start the show, where did you grow up?
So I grew up in rural Queensland, so a couple of hours from where I am now on the Sunshine Coast.
(02:25):
Small country town, not much to do there, but honestly wouldn't trade that experience for the
world. I think I learned a lot of life experiences early on at a younger age, growing up on land and
just having, I guess, opportunity to mature at a younger age. Sounds a little bit cocky, but just
being able to be taught those life skills was a great opportunity. So I grew up out there,
(02:49):
again, grew up in a single family household as well, so I sort of bounced between a couple of
different spots between small country towns and more rural cities. It was an interesting time,
but much enjoy where I am on the Sunshine Coast now.
Yeah, yeah. So did you have a farm?
My parents themselves didn't, but I did spend a bit of time living at my grandmother's property
(03:14):
with my father. So it was on like a cattle farm.
Ah, cattle. Interesting.
Yeah. And my mother and stepfather have dairy farm as well, so I spent some time out there. So
a lot of early mornings and dirty work with animals.
Yeah, yeah. And cows in particular. Are you good at spotting the difference between
(03:35):
types of cows?
I probably was at one point, but no, that was never my strength. I don't think I really have
had an interest in it. So I never really invested any brain power into learning the big differences.
I know, yeah, some, but not many.
Yeah, fair. So how did you get into the disability sector?
(03:58):
This, I guess, will be a bit of a two-part response. I was actually thinking about this
after you gave me the questions when we last spoke. And I guess part of it is I grew up with
siblings and step-siblings and cousins with, or not siblings, step-siblings and cousins with
disability, with autism, I have a cousin with fragile X. And I guess just being surrounded
(04:22):
from, or surrounded with people with disability from such a young age, it kind of made it normal.
In a way, for lack of a better word, I was just used to people with disability. It was never
this taboo subjects talk about disability, or it was never overly shocking to me seeing the
difficulty that people can have with disability, the behavioral dysregulation side of things.
(04:47):
And seeing a different life stage outcomes, obviously growing up alongside them.
So I think a part of it was that because I found it natural and comfortable in a sense,
because that's what I was used to. But I guess the real big thing that got me into it was
from a young age, I wanted to be, I guess, like any young boy, I wanted to be like my old man.
And he was a diesel fitter by trade. And I was interested in that. But at the time, especially
(05:13):
people in the trade weren't treated well. So he was pretty open and vocal about,
no, you're not doing that because it's not worth it. You're not going to get treated well. The
money's not great, all sorts of things. And I guess being the natural problem solver and a bit of a
smart aleck that I am, I was like, well, how can I be like my dad without being my dad? So I decided
I'd go down the military route. And initially, I was wanting to join as like an avionics technician
(05:37):
in the Air Force, and then it changed to a diesel fitter in the army. And then by the end of it,
I was just like, just anything in the military. Because I really guess had that fondness and
appreciation for what they do for looking after Australians and the defence force side of things.
But yeah, so I spent my entire life wanting to work towards that goal. And then around
(05:58):
15, 16 years old, I ended up getting well, actually, probably 14, 15 years old, ended up
having a really bad knee injury playing rugby league. And because I'd had knee pain from a
young age with a condition called oscrux slattest disease, or syndrome now, I was just so used to
having chronic and severe knee pain. And then after this injury, we didn't actually realise there was
another injury, we just thought it made that worse. So I walked around on a torn ACL and damaged
(06:23):
ACL and a couple other significant injuries for about a year. We were able to get like the
investigation done before our GP was like, Oh, no, there's actually something a bit more here again,
growing up in rural Queensland, the resources weren't great. So after having that injury
discovered, having surgery, having a terrible rehab process, it was kind of just the span of
(06:45):
thrown in my works at such a young age, it's weird to say now that I'm a bit older. But at the time,
I was just so lost. I didn't know where I was going to go, what I was going to do was just that's
what I put everything towards. And I was just sort of floating around and hopeless in a sense,
we really did get into a period of depression and anxiety around making those life choices,
(07:09):
especially with at that age around 15, 16, we were looking at pathways, people go into university,
people going into trade, I didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't want to get anything done
to do, I didn't want to get anything into anything overly physical, because my knee was so bad, I
couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without being in pain. And it was actually at a cousin's wedding
that I met an OT, we had a bit of a chat around what he is and how can return people to doing
(07:33):
the things that they once loved. And I guess, after having a really horrible rehab process and
not having good experience with physiotherapy, I was like out of the two, that sounds like the
one I want to do. And initially, I picked OT to work with veterans in DVA. But as I sort of got
throughout my practice, or my university course, I was sort of pulled more towards the disability
(07:58):
side and like the neuro. So thinking a lot of like post stroke in that rehab, again, getting
people that had their goals, their livelihoods, whatever they loved doing that they lost. And I
wanted to be able to get them back to some semblance of doing that or doing that activity,
because I felt I could relate really well to that. So that's kind of what got me into, I guess,
(08:19):
the OT and disability space. And from that point, I really gravitated again towards the mental health
side of things, what I'm working in now, the psychosocial disability. Because again, I've
gone through my own experiences with depression, anxiety. Again, I can feel like I have that lived
experience. But also, I feel like it's a really stigmatized area. People do not understand that
(08:43):
it's a grossly misunderstood from a societal and like government level. It's looked at the wrong
way. People just don't appreciate the, I guess, the broad impact it can have. So again, wanted to
be able to voice up for, I guess, a population that isn't as supported as it could be. So it's
sort of just been my drift into that space. I love this story so much. I'm so excited on so
(09:07):
many levels. So kind of like, where do I start? But I think I want to start at, what did you say
that name of that syndrome is that you have? Oschgud-Schlatter's disease. So it's like a
growth plate disease in the knees. So I can't remember the specifics of it, because I was
(09:27):
diagnosed with this at like eight or nine years old. I still have the knee pain today at 28,
which is wild. But I think it's like a very large growth plate or oversized, which causes knee pain.
I am probably, probably, incredibly inaccurate with it. But it caused a whole array of issues.
Like I couldn't, like it caused one thing called the theater knee, which essentially, if you're
(09:51):
sitting with your knees bent for any period of time, it sort of like freezes. And the pain,
that comes out of that when you have to extend your knees, just extreme. And imagine like a
nine year old kid at school trying to sit still, but in severe pain. So you fidget, you move and
you get in trouble for moving. So it was a really tricky condition that I don't think was appreciated
(10:15):
a lot at the time. Thankfully you do kind of grow out of it. But yeah, it was pretty gnarly at the
time. Yeah. And yet you decided to play rugby. Yeah, I was a bit of an idiot. So I think like
that goes back into like why I was so lost one after I had the knee injury and decided that the
military wasn't the way for me is I wasn't then. I still don't really see myself now as an academic,
(10:39):
which is ironic after graduating as an auntie. But like, I just don't have, I didn't feel I had
that brain. So I was like, you know, I'm going in, I'm into the military, let's do all the big
burly things people in the military do. So I picked rugby and paying the price for it now.
But I think that is a very stereotypical boy thing in a rural area to do. Like,
(11:04):
as society, we go, if you're a boy, you do this. If you're a girl, you do this. And, you know,
nobody thinks about the consequences of everybody just being funneled this way or that way. You know,
it's daft. Yeah. I'm also really interested in you because you are a male OT. And you are in an
(11:34):
industry that is female dominated. And, you know, I mean, I'm not revealing anything to you by saying
that. Oh, did you know? Anyway, the point of what I was saying is that even where you work,
(11:56):
you're the only male OT. How do you find that? Well, since I guess we last spoke, we now do
have another male OT, but there's only two of us now. But no, it is interesting. Like I say,
we're kind of a unicorn. There's a lot of us, but at the same time, there's not that many because
it is such a female dominated industry. It's really interesting. I think it does give me
(12:21):
at times a unique perspective or unique opportunity to make connections with
some participants that a female OT may not be able to, just given past experiences and things
like that. One thing I noticed a lot when I was working really though was, I guess, just based on,
I guess, if we're linking it to cohort effect, a lot of the men out there responded well to me
(12:42):
going out to see them and speak to them because I can go out there and I can really put on my
bogan accent and speak to them in a one-to-one way sense that like makes sense to them that they're
used to that they're comfortable with. So when I ask questions of like, okay, how do you go up
in your bottom? How do you do these things? Like I asked those questions. It's not a walls are up
because I'm able to go in and be relatable. It's helped break down those walls. So yeah,
(13:06):
definitely has its strengths. I also find now in my role working more in psychosocial, if I'm talking
to men in general around men's mental health, again, having that lived experience, I can relate.
I can say I've been in similar situations or I've walked a mile in my shoes to a degree.
And I think that again helps destigmatize. I can go, okay, well, I've spoken to many men like
(13:30):
yourself. That's okay to feel that way. You shouldn't be feeling ashamed for feeling that way.
You shouldn't feel stupid for feeling that way. I felt that way too. And it gives me that ability
to be like, okay, let's take a deep breath and just start again. So I find that yeah, it's a really
good, I guess a benefit for working as an OT. Again, mainly because it is that female dominated
(13:54):
field. It just gives another perspective that some clients relate to more.
Yeah. And I think men's mental health is often overlooked because men typically stereotyping
don't talk about their feelings and their mental health. And we brought this up with,
(14:16):
in the episode with Simon Rinn and he works as a counselling social worker for men. And I love that
you are on that similar trajectory as an OT. It's great. And I'm sure you have a wide array
(14:41):
of things that you can do beyond just talking to men. You can do that, but I think that focus
is really needed because otherwise, we lose too many men to just not talking like some people do.
(15:06):
Absolutely. And that's probably a key thing again, that I probably missed in the previous question
around where did I grow up? Like I said, I grew up in rural Queensland and men's mental health,
their mental health in general, but if we're talking about men's mental health, it's not spoken about
it is heavily stigmatised. It's either a teaspoon of concrete and toughen up and it is really just
(15:31):
overlooked. And unfortunately, I know people that have died to suicide, I've lost friends that have
died to suicide from that region just because it is so stigmatised. So it is, again, having that
personal connection to it. It is really meaningful to me to go out there and make a change.
Yeah, fantastic. I want to talk a little bit now that we, I was able to go through and ask those
(15:59):
few questions through your story, which is great. And I really appreciate your openness and telling
us about your story. I want to talk a little bit about what you're doing now. So you work for
a company that just does occupational therapy, which I love so, so much. I sing constantly.
(16:23):
Well, I don't sing, but I talk about singing these songs, but anyway, I constantly bang on to
people about doing one thing and doing it well. And you don't have to do all the things in the
NDIS space. It's unnecessary. And actually you will attract people to you more if you do one
(16:53):
thing and do it really, really well. And so this is another reason why I'm so excited to talk to
you. So can you tell us a little bit about the company and your role in it?
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I work for Forbes Care, an OT company on the Sunshine Coast.
(17:13):
We're based up in Budroom. Yeah, it's an amazing company. I admit, I've gone from company to
company to company that does have that one-stop shop mentality of having every allied health banner
under the sun, which to a degree is really cool and I can appreciate the thought. But when it comes
to practice, it is so much nicer to focus on that quality over quantity. And that was my, I guess,
(17:34):
the catalyst in my decision deciding to go to Forbes Care was one in myself. I felt like as a
sole practitioner, I'd worked as the only OT at every organization I'd worked at really, that I'd
hit my ceiling and I didn't have any other OTs around me or if I did, they didn't stick around for
very long because the burnout rates were so high in those other organizations. So I went in, I was
like, you know what, I want to go back in and act like a new grad and just learn all these things
(17:57):
from a team of OTs. And that has been probably the smartest decision I've ever made in my life.
Being able to sit down in a room with, you know, 10, 15, 20 other OTs at any time and just talk OT
has been amazing. And that's kind of now that I've stepped into the clinical training or clinical
educator role, it's been something I've really wanted to lean heavily into. Drawing on all the
(18:23):
previous experiences I had that haven't been so positive. And now that I'm in the position to make
change within the company is, okay, well, this is what I've been through. This is what burnt me out.
This is what we need to avoid. So to avoid that, we need to have regular PD days where we get
together every two months to focus on key gaps in the team. I want to have like special interest
(18:44):
groups for certain topics. So we've got a therapy group, we've got a mental health group that will
be starting up again next year. But also as we bring in new grads, like, okay, well, they're
going to be scared because it's a lot, it's a big transition going from fourth year student to first
year OT. So to get them a group as well to make sure they have their opportunity to one learn,
but also be a part of a community and be a part of something that's bigger than themselves. To
(19:09):
again, help them bring them back down to earth to breathe, to focus and really that way their cup
stays full so they can then give out to the clients. I love this culture too of everyone is
connected and you get to go back and not feel so alone because you have, you deliberately have
(19:33):
these days where everyone gets together and is able to go, oh gosh, this has been really an
away or have you seen this new development? How exciting is this? And, you know, I really love
that. And I love that Forbes Care has thought about this and then made your position where you,
(20:00):
you are there to sort of spearhead those kinds of things and create this really lovely culture.
And the other thing that I'm fascinated by is everyone I've spoken to at Forbes Care is really
lovely. I'm like, how is this possible? There's got to be someone who's not as like lovely.
(20:25):
Like lovely. How are they just attracting these really lovely people? It is so interesting to me.
I can definitely credit that to like Anna, our business development manager, Kelly herself for
setting up such a positive culture. Jess, a clinical lead who helps in the interviewing process.
(20:47):
That is something that is, I guess, we push so hard is that if you're stepping into this team,
we want to make sure you are a really good fit, not just from a clinical experience perspective,
but from that culture perspective, because we try to recognize that it doesn't take much to bring
a team down, especially for working in the spaces complex and frustrating as the NDIS. If we have a
(21:11):
team member that like all person that may not fit in as well, it's not going to be beneficial in the
long run. So we like they do such a good job of finding people that are the right fit values that
align. But we also just have so much accountability and open discussions and transparency around
what Forbes expects, I guess, as an organization. So we regulate every supervision section we have,
(21:34):
we go, okay, well, has there been something that you've done that's contributed towards
the Forbes K values this week? And it may just be something really small that like I've helped
another clinician with a report or I was having a discussion with a clinician, they said something
I was like, actually, that's not safe. Make sure you flag that with your supervisor and talk that
through because we need to change that before you go back for another appointment. And it just helps
(21:57):
everyone feel like we're on one team, which is another one of our key values. And again, like
you say, it just helps have you that sense of connection. Because again, in the NDIS space,
when you're going through, it can be frustrating, it's disheartening, there's a lot of things that
don't go our way as therapists of AT getting denied, homebods getting denied, funding getting
cut. And we take a lot of that on board, it frustrates us as much, not as much, but just as
(22:20):
it does the clients. So having such a proactive approach towards making sure our team is feeling
supported and feeling heard and recognized, I think is just as important as investing into
the education side of things. Yeah, exactly. I think too, it breeds on what you've done really
(22:41):
well is that each clinician can kind of pick their own specialty and kind of run with that,
which I love because I think there's a, not an issue, but can be a complication when you get a
(23:02):
generalist OT trying to do and support all people at all times and do all of it. And you just like,
yeah, but you can't possibly be really good at all of it. Like it's, it's just not,
not physically possible. And so I think having the ability to go, I'm really interested in
(23:28):
pediatrics. I'm really interested in homebods. I'm really interested in mental health. Like
that's really exciting. Yeah. Now that I guess I've been with Ford, so like doing a half year,
it does seem like a bit of a no brainer that that's not the approach or that like that is
the approach everyone should take. And it surprises me that people don't. Like if you want to get the
(23:49):
best out of people, give them something that motivates them. I love mental health and love
working with adults and some adolescents, but you put me in a room with a pediatric client.
I'm not the OT to be in that room. I can do the job and I've done it in the past, but as you can
say, talking to me now, I'm quite monotone and low energy kid with ASD that wants to bounce off the
(24:10):
walls. We're not going to, we're not going to mesh as a client and therapist. So there's like, to me,
there's no point investing or putting that clinician in that space if they're not going to
get great outcomes for a client. Not saying that you might not learn that they actually love that
space, but that's something like you say, we take really seriously. We'll like work with the
clinician to give them a generalist role, but if they find anything that they enjoy and like that
(24:33):
niche, like home mods or mental health or pediatrics or DVA or whatever it may be, what they're wanting
to really look at and like, if it fits into the referrals that we're receiving, we will help them
as much as we can. They'll still keep a generalist sort of role, but if they're excited to come into
work and motivated to come into work, why not give them that referral basis? So yeah, it just makes so
(24:58):
much more sense from a longevity side of things as well.
Yeah, absolutely. So I, for the listeners, I do want to get a few sort of key things out of the way
about what area and locations your OTs go to and the referral process, like how they refer to you.
(25:25):
Yeah, so we work everywhere from like North of Gympie, the Gympie region. We have an OT that goes
out to Kilkeaven. Every now and then we have other OTs that are going to be reaching out to like the
Tin Can Bay and Kooluloo Cove area all the way down to like North Brisbane, Morayfield area.
And I believe we may be even looking into like Ipswich in the New Year as well. And then all of
(25:47):
the Sunshine Coast and the Hinterland we access as well for NDIS, Prep Care Package, DVA. So anything
in that realm, I'm more than happy to reach out to us. For the referral side of things, depending on,
I guess, the supports that you've got around you, if you've got a support coordinator, I'd say liaise
with them and say, I want to give Forbes Care a try, they'll be able to reach out to us. Otherwise,
(26:10):
we've got like an online referral portal on our website. So you're able to go through there and
just submit all your information and then our admin team will reach out to complete further questions
or other sort of intake protocols with you. Amazing. Great. Thank you. And yes, Anna is really,
really lovely and great to talk to you. So that's helpful. Is there anything more you want to talk
(26:38):
about in the OT space that is happening or any trends you're seeing in the OT space?
It's hard to say. I think some of the trends we're seeing will probably come into more like the next
question around the changes that are happening in the space. It's a bit just, I guess, unclear
(27:00):
around the future of things with the change of hopefully getting more therapy back in place
rather than reporting. They're probably the key ones I'm noticing specifically in the OT space.
So that brings me to in your ideal world, what would the future of the NDIS look like?
So yeah, after you first put this question to me, I struggled to come down or narrow it down. I even
(27:24):
went up to my team and I'm like, guys, what would the perfect world be like to you? And after some
deliberation and thinking like the key things that I thought of, I guess, like the key changes I'd
love to see would be better accountability from the agency, much better consistency or improved
consistency from the agency as well. And then transparency are probably the key things that I
(27:47):
would love to see. Like, I guess, if we go back to the accountability side of things, something that
I've seen so much regularly or heard so much regularly is like we've sent off an AT application
or an FCA or a report or whatever it may be. For one of our OTs actually she sent off complex
home mods. And after however long of chasing it up, we come back and get told that they never
(28:09):
received it. They lost the quotes. They never had the report. And like, we can find it in two seconds
in an email thread. So those sorts of things do frustrate me as a clinician. Like one thing that
comes to mind of late was I had a client that we were just applying for a scooter for to allow
them to get out in the community with their dog due to their disability, psychosocial and physical.
(28:31):
They can't walk very far and they're scared of walking very far. But they live in just this
beautiful spot right next to the beach and they want to be able to get down there. So we applied
for a scooter. And after 160 days, we had no response, no advice of a yes or no from the agency.
That's with the coordinator or the client's coordinator and the client themselves calling
(28:54):
up the NDIS to be like, hey, where's this at? And nine times out of 10, they would say,
we don't know or it's in process or speak to your OT because they'll be able to tell you even though
after we submit the reports, OT is the last one to ever know. Which again, that's this whole other
issue. But it got to the point where this client admitted and disclosed thoughts of suicidality.
(29:15):
So it's going like, okay, well, it's taken that long to this point where this client's feeling
that poorly of their life that they want to or thinking about these things. So we were like,
I had to submit another letter going, hey, guys, we send this on this date. It's been over 160 days
because of the lack of communication and outcomes. This client has admitted suicidal ideation. We
(29:38):
need an outcome now. And thankfully, that was able to get it escalated overnight. And it's been
approved and it's been delivered now. But it's the fact that it has to get to that point.
That really frustrates me. And it's really tricky as well and difficult as well when us as OTs,
we go out and do these massive reports that may seem a bit over the top because we're told to put
all the information in there. So we're told they're too long. So we cut back on information,
(30:00):
then we're told that there's insufficient evidence. So funding's cut and then you have to go through
change. It's just a bit of a rigmarole. So for me, it really does underscore why the OT burnout
rate has gone from seven years to two. But that's probably like one of the key things.
I would love to see from the agency is just better accountability and efficiency in those processes,
because it is really tricky from our perspective as an OT because we submit something to inquiries
(30:25):
and then we go, okay, in the scheme of things, that's our job done until we're given the yes or
no. But nine times out of 10, it's then all the OT hasn't done this or the client or support
coordinator calls them and then something comes up that they needed additional information that we
didn't know about because again, we're typically the last ones to know these things. So that's
probably like, well, that's the key thing I was thinking about. Like I was saying, the consistency
(30:48):
is another thing that is a big gap. And I think you mentioned in your podcast with Simon Rin is
you can submit the exact same tool with all the exact same outcome measure from a report or an
assessment with a really good report and two clients will get two different outcomes based on
that. And I understand that I don't want to just sit here like I'm whinging and I understand that
(31:09):
the amendments that have come out are aiming for this with the needs-based assessment.
So I'm looking forward to hearing more about that in the new year. But after being in my
seventh year of practice now, in the end, I assume a little bit cynical that a bureaucrat somewhere
in Canberra is going to make changes to what is co-designed. But I'm hoping I'm pretty wrong there.
(31:29):
Have you listened to this podcast before? We're not optimistic about anything.
I just don't want to seem like a negative Nellie, especially because I am still treating OT in the
space. It is just a bit like that. Like, yes, we've got all these promises and they are making
(31:51):
changes, which is great because if you remain stagnant, that's where issues arise and we don't
evolve. But the key thing we can refer to is they made changes to the funding and what is and is not
NDIS funded support. And they decide to cut art and music therapy saying it's not evidence-based
despite there being such robust evidence available to demonstrate that it is beneficial.
(32:12):
So it is just frustrating. And again, when we're the OT that goes in there and someone asks for
something or say I want to do the service and then we have to go, we can try but I don't think that's
going to be a funded support based on these changes. We then cop that back. And I get that
these clients are burnt out and upset and frustrated with the system. But again, if we're walking into
four appointments a day, however many a day and we cop that same treatment for every one,
(32:34):
it's difficult because again, as therapists, we're not immune to this. We go in there, we feel the
frustration of the clients. As much as we don't want to, we will take some of that on board and
we can, it just stacks. So not having, I guess, that consistency across the board, we don't really
know at times where we need to go and what support we need to provide and because how to get those
(32:56):
outcomes at times. We have that comfort, we find what works and then something changes and then we
don't know where to go from there and it's just tricky. And I guess that just leads into the last
point I was thinking about is that transparency is like, again, they're doing it now. I'm really
happy because they've got the documents of what is a NDIS funded support and what isn't. But it's
just really difficult because we don't know exactly what's needed for each application. We can go in
(33:20):
there and try our best and thankfully being in my team, we have a lot of resources at hand and a
lot of clinical experience at hand so we can answer that. But if we're thinking new grad or sole
clinicians or small teams, it's really hard to learn these things or figure it out because you're
going to make mistakes and unfortunately if mistakes are made or information is missed, then
client's not going to get the outcomes and then they've got to go back to square one with an
(33:43):
appeal or AAT and it's just a whole process that really drags that. And when some of these
applications or reviews take six months already, if you then have to go through the appeal process,
that could be another six months at a minimum, especially at the moment, things are really taking
their time. So it's just a tricky spot to be in. So they're like the key things that I'd love to see
(34:04):
is the other accountability, consistency and transparency.
I really love this answer and the way that you have talked through it. You have perfectly
articulated a lot of my frustration with this system and I'm not even an OT, you know, and
(34:25):
but I do feel that from OTs and you can't like often think about how freaking annoying it
constantly is to have, like you said, the inquiries email, they just lose documents and I'm like, how
(34:47):
is that possible? How can you just lose a whole report? What are you doing with it that you are
losing it?
And it baffles me and it also actually leads to another thing I didn't even think to mention,
but is like when we do a really detailed report and what we consider a really high quality report
and then we go through a plan outcome, we get no feedback and then an outcome is made and it's
(35:13):
like ridiculously undercutting what we've recommended and potentially even reduce what the
client was previously receiving. And I get they want to make the scheme sustainable, but when
there's no communication back and forth, it really gives that impression that they're not reading
the reports. And that goes back to the comment of, you know, the
we may write long reports and we do at times, but like working in the psychosocial space, I have to
(35:37):
write narratively to let them understand how that disability impacts them because the amount of
times where I've had a client that wants, you know, one-to-one support in the community or an
extra couple of hours in the week in the community one-to-one, but because they can physically get
up and move around, it's denied, but they don't really understand that for a person with
psychosocial disability, getting out of bed can be one of the most difficult things in the morning.
(36:02):
It just, it baffles me at times. And I know there has been instances where
planners have allegedly stated they've not even read the OT reports. I don't know if you've been
on LinkedIn of late, but there was an open letter to Mr. Shorten about a client that had muscular
dystrophy. I can't remember which type, but he had his funding cut, had a cardiac event and because
(36:24):
of that, he struggled to get to the phone in time to call QAS. If he had his funding, it wasn't cut
for whatever reason, he would have been able to do it. Change of circumstance was submitted,
nothing changed and unfortunately that client passed away. So it's, I know that is an isolated
incident, but if one's happened, it's probably happened elsewhere as well. So it's just like
those frustrations that can come up with it. Again, you can go in there, you can give it your all,
(36:48):
you can do your best, you can tick the boxes as much as you can, but if it falls on deaf ears
or it's not looked at or whatever it may be, we're just not seeing the change and we're not getting
the outcomes for our clients and in some circumstances, you can have really bad outcomes.
So yeah, that just really brings it back as like we need that transparency, we really need that
accountability. Yeah, the accountability for planners to actually read the reports, how
(37:12):
amazing would that be? I do often get feedback from allied health professionals and this was
really obvious at the beginning of 2024, we did a live show like we are doing in February, on the
(37:33):
12th of February, we've got a new live show. One of the questions we were asked was what is the point
of even doing these reports when they're not read? And I said to everyone and I will say it to anyone
who asks me, even if that immediate planner or the LAC doesn't read it, someone along the line will
(38:00):
because when you then have to put in a review or if you have to go to ART, that is when those
reports are more seriously looked at. So your reports still have to be there, your reports still
have to be on point and still have to be awesome and have all of the evidence because yes, they
(38:27):
will be read at some point, even if the immediate feedback is we don't give a shit, we're not reading
it, still write those reports as if someone will read it or the coroner will read it.
Absolutely and that's exactly what I say to my team is when they're not sure about level of
(38:48):
detail, I'll say put it in. It really comes back to the ethos I learned when I was doing placements
at Queensland Health was good notes, good defense, no notes, no defense. Yes, that's more in the
evidence, the realm of if you get subpoenaed, having your backup there, but it's the same thing
if we go in and go, I mentioned this in the report and this page in the subsection and put it in my
(39:10):
recommendations and there's a clear link to the clinical evidence and you've ignored it and not
funded it and it's resulted in this. It is our way to back ourselves up and be like well actually
that's on you, we have made these recommendations and this is the historical evidence of needing
those supports. So yeah, I agree 100% but I guess one thing that frustrates me as well with this whole
(39:33):
process is actually a comment that I saw yesterday from Bill Shorten in I guess a press release or an
update was we want to cut down on these 80 page reports. I don't know if you can find an OT out
there that enjoys writing reports of such length because it takes a lot of brain power, it takes a
lot of time, it's exhausting. A lot of us became therapists to do therapy, not to sit behind a
(39:56):
screen and write a report. So again, I understand these changes may come in place with the needs
based assessment that's currently being co-designed and I'm hopeful that it does but it's really
tricky when comments like that are being made. It really riled me up when I read it, I need to take
a deep breath but if you're going to make those comments but then we do provide reports that aren't
(40:16):
80 pages long and then you go well there's not enough evidence, we're not going to fund anything,
we're going to cut the funding in half. It's just mind-boggling. Another incident I'm thinking of
was I've had a client years ago that was low vision and during COVID they didn't leave their
house because they live with their grandparents and didn't want to risk bringing it back to them
(40:37):
so they cut their funding because they didn't access the community and then when I set in the
plan review because this client didn't have a support coordinator, I was like okay well
they need this back, they're going back to university, the world's different now.
Their response that they initially met me with is well they have a guidance dog, I'm like cool yeah,
guidance dog can help them down there but it's not going to help them find the right kind of milk or
(40:58):
those sort of items as well. It can help them navigate but it doesn't replace another person
being there. Also a dog can't drive a car and we don't want to rely on taxis and like that was a
genuine response that I got. I want to see the dog drive the car though. Yeah it would be amazing
but it's just like things like that and comments like that that just kind of
make your face palm a little bit. It's a little bit upsetting that a person that clearly doesn't
(41:23):
look at this individual, the person that's looking at them as a number and a budget,
they're making the decisions and I get it is an insurance scheme that is always going to be an
underlying factor but we're meant to be helping people with disability here. We need to put the
person first so that is one thing I'll admit that has got me excited about the co-design nature of
this. They are bringing in people with disability, they are bringing in industry experts so hopefully
(41:47):
crossing fingers and toes this provides positive outcomes for the industry but it's I guess a wait
and see. It's really tricky as well because with the training that they're putting in now and the
webinars they're providing now we try and ask them questions to get a bit of clarity so we know what
to tell our clients and you get a telegraphed response that's been scripted for them. I did
(42:08):
one recently we're asking about psychosocial disability and how they're going to access supports
like especially if it's an episodic sort of condition like schizophrenia where they may
relapse with psychosis and need increased supports during those periods and they said oh you'll just
work with your planner. That's pretty much the response we go on like cool that doesn't happen
now is it going to happen then but also I'm not going to do a change of circumstance every time
(42:31):
that one of my clients has psychosis and needs increased support so whatever it is so it just
again it's that lack of transparency we don't know what we're walking into. Again I've seen
the roadmaps, I've seen the different stages that we've got and have a very vague idea but
it's a bit daunting thinking about what it's going to be like up until June next year when
we're in that late stage so it's an interesting time to be in OT.
(42:54):
Exactly the other thing they tend to do is politicians speak in
roundabouts and you're like no hang on a second you didn't actually answer the question
and that irritates me so much and shows their complete lack of understanding of the space.
(43:17):
Yeah I feel you. Yeah well it even goes down to like I went to the Australian Assistive Technology
Conference on the Gold Coast earlier this year and one of the presenters there Sarah Collinson
was talking about like home modifications and housing options being put on the outlist
and the fact that she contacted her connections or one of her connections at the NDIA and went
(43:42):
hey are you aware of this and they went oh no that's a mistake or something along those lines and
they had to change it after the fact so to me it just feels like things are a bit rushed and
hazard and especially with the time frame of like those things only coming out 24 hours
before the law were put in place on the 3rd of October it seems like things are just a bit
rushed which is again are on course with the agency unfortunately with rolling out things
(44:07):
like the pace changes are a good example of that I know that's been a frustration for our practice
manager but there's just so many things that have just seemed a bit haphazard and unplanned and
again going back to the change of art and music therapy that's another example of a rash decision
being made that's impacted a lot of people and businesses so many people have closed their doors
(44:28):
and now all of a sudden that's all out again until next year when the independent review comes out
well if someone's already shut down they're not going to open up again so there's so many real
outcomes that have been coming from these changes that are happening overnight and people are feeling
it the clients are feeling it providers are feeling it and that's kind of it seems like it's
falling on deaf ears at first again it's nice to see that they've reevaluated this based on the
(44:50):
feedback from families and from therapists but again the fact that's had to get to this stage
for the change to happen is the frustrating part so it would be nice to see things more slowly and
gradually put out with more consideration of evolving people within the industry whether it's
practicing ot is practicing physios practicing practicing speeches clients obviously we need
(45:11):
them front and center to make sure every person and every party of this industry is taken into
account and again they're not going to please everyone but doing as much as possible would be
great absolutely exactly exactly well geordie it's been so wonderful to have you on the podcast i
(45:32):
have loved chatting with you this has been an awesome conversation so thank you so much for
coming on the podcast no thank you for having me and listening to me rant for the last 60 minutes
but i know it's been great and i really enjoy listening to the other podcast i'm happy to finally
be on yeah awesome thank you until next time bye hey podcast fans ready for a podcast event that's
(45:59):
as unique as you are mark your calendars for february 12 2025 the what in the ndis now podcast
is going live and you're invited but here's the twist our dress code is your favorite outfit
whether that's an elmo onesie or black tie or an awesome dress with pockets anything goes here's
(46:27):
what's in store we're doing a mini trade show networking event we'll have an expert panel
discussion we'll have fun laughter and valuable insights providers want to stand out you can
sponsor a table for just 300 for that you'll get your logo displayed behind our panel and
(46:53):
advertising leading up to the event general admission is free but spaces are limited
don't miss the chance to connect learn and have a blast to secure your spot or membership email
what in the ndis pod at gmail.com or call hannah see you there in your fabulous outfits thank you
(47:19):
for listening please share with people you know until next time as the green brothers say don't
forget to be awesome
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