March 9, 2025 • 32 mins
On this episode Sam and Hannah chat with Sabrina Leung from enaccess maps about the amazing platform she and her team are building to provide accurate and transparent access information for hospitality venues throughout Australia. We urge you to get involved if you can, get your team involved and help build the data set for enaccess maps and Maps for Change.
If you want to get in touch with Sabrina, email:
and please check out the website:
You can also get in touch on LinkedIn and Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/enaccessmaps/
If you want to get in touch with us, you can:
Contact the podcast whatinthendispod@gmail.com
Contact Hannah hello@plandecoders.com.au
Contact Sam sam@rc-co.au
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We acknowledge the original owners of the land on which we podcast, whose stories were told for
(00:05):
thousands of years. Today we are recording in Mianjin. We pay our respects to elders past
and present who may be listening. Sovereignty was never ceded. A quick note before we get started
that there may be some swearing in today's podcast. If you don't like swearing or usually
listen with children in the car, you have been warned. This episode of What in the NDIS Now is
(00:32):
brought to you by Astalti. Astalti is the software solution for NDIS professionals built by NDIS
professionals. Astalti is my go-to software and Astalti is trusted and loved by hundreds of other
NDIS providers. I love how easy it is to use and how it keeps all my participant information,
(00:56):
notes and invoicing all in one place available to me anytime from any device. Sign up now
for your 14-day free trial. Head to Astalti.com.au to sign up now. See for yourself how much easier
managing all your NDIS business needs are by using Astalti. Thanks again to Astalti for sponsoring
(01:20):
today's episode. You're listening to What in the NDIS Now, a podcast where I, Hannah Redford,
and my friend Sam Rosenbaum interview participants and providers about all things NDIS.
(01:43):
Welcome everyone to the podcast episode. How are you going, Sam? Yeah, Hannah, really, really well. How about yourself? Yeah, I'm exhausted, actually. I've been really tired.
Actually, look, as you say that I felt, and I was saying really well, I'm going that kind of a little bit of a lie because yes, I feel 100% like that.
(02:08):
I tried going on our fabulous bus system in Brisbane yesterday and it sucked and it sucks.
And I have a few suggestions for the people who run our bus system, just one or two or 500.
(02:29):
So, yeah, yesterday I was a little more upset and discombobulated than I am today.
Oh, discombobulated. That can be the word of the day, everyone.
Love it. Well, Hannah, who have we got on today? We have Sabrina. Welcome to the podcast, Sabrina.
Thank you, Hannah. Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me here. No worries. I love having you here.
(02:53):
Yeah, we're so excited to talk to you about your app. But first, we always start the show with where did you grow up?
So I actually grew up in Hong Kong my entire life, really never left that place.
And I just moved to Australia, I think, six years ago. So pretty new, but not really.
(03:16):
Yep. And you chose Brisbane. Is Brisbane the only place you've been in Australia or lived rather?
So I actually moved to Melbourne and I'm based in Melbourne right now.
Yeah. Yes, sorry. I'm in the same place, but different time zone, guys.
(03:36):
No, that's awesome, Sabrina. And look, it won't be long until Hannah will be right and you will be up in Brisbane,
because we're both from Melbourne and we both moved up a while ago and we're both very much never looking back.
Oh my god, that's crazy. Because I kept saying that I feel like I will move to Brisbane.
And I also went to Brisbane two weeks ago and that's where I met a lot of my Brisbane connections
(04:02):
and somehow I got to Hannah to you as well, like on LinkedIn.
That's awesome. It's a small little world. It's great to get connected and Brisbane will be lucky to have you up here.
Love it.
So how did you get into the disability sector or adjacent?
So when I moved to Melbourne and I think it was the second year of my university degree,
(04:26):
it was during COVID and then everything switched to online.
So I was like, I really need a job because I just can't stay at home and no one could get out.
So I'm like, what's a job I can get out of my home and also something I have the skills,
because my resume really did not have much things on there.
So I just looked on online and found this disability support job and I applied for it.
(04:52):
Got rejected in the beginning, but somehow she got me back in again and did the second interview
and I got the job as a support worker. She hired, she's self-managed and she hired me directly.
And then I worked for her for three years. COVID was a tough time.
There was a period of time where I had to work two shifts a day, seven days a week for almost three
(05:15):
months because we couldn't find anyone to be the second support worker. And it was a lot of 4 AM
waking up and then she also had more of higher support needs. So a lot of times I get called in
in the middle of the day, in the middle of class, in the middle of the night. Yeah, it was difficult,
(05:35):
but that also meant I formed a really good relationship with her and yeah, led to all the
things afterwards. Amazing. So tell us about your app. So do you want to start with its name and
how you thought of it and what it kind of does, all of those things? We want to know everything.
(05:59):
Cool. For sure. So I run a platform and the name is In Access Maps. So E-N Access Maps.
Basically I started In Access Maps when I was kind of third year into my support work,
working job. And the person that I cared for, she is obsessed with fish and chips.
(06:24):
And she also used a power wheelchair. So the places she could go to was really limited
and she would spend an entire day to plan for an event with say like if she had to go out with her
mom the next day and she wanted to go to a new place, she would spend the day before to physically
go check so that she knows that she can feel safe when she actually goes. So at the time I was like,
(06:52):
I love food and I don't think about these things. Whether there's a step, whether there's an
accessible toilet, these things don't come to my mind and I just go in without thinking.
And I just felt like this is unfair and why if this is happening to her, it means it's happening
to a lot of people. So I kind of made her a promise that I'll help her find the best fish
(07:15):
and chip shop she can go to in Melbourne that's accessible. That's really how it started. And then
I was also at uni at the time so I told one of the student clubs that I want to start this,
I don't really know how to do it, can you help me? And they were kind enough to kind of give me a
volunteer team of students to really start building this. It was just a Google form attached to Google
(07:38):
Maps and I just posted everywhere on Facebook, got some traction and I'm like, this seems to go well
and it seems like a real big problem. Then it kind of went from there. Yeah. So what is it mainly
hospitality places that you're looking for? Yeah. So I feel like I might have missed exactly what
(08:00):
the app does, but essentially we're a website that connects people with disabilities to venues that
match their access needs. We started off with restaurants and cafes, but slowly we are also
expanding to tourist destinations because it's just, we just want people to have a good time and have
(08:20):
fun and there's so many experiences they can do. So starting with cafes and restaurants, but slowly
more and more things are added to the platform. Yeah. Awesome. And so one of the things I loved,
like we love this and we loved the idea that you're getting providers to sign up,
(08:43):
to get support workers to fill in the form to say, oh, I went out with someone today and this
wasn't accessible or this was accessible. And that helps build out the maps, no matter where you are
in Australia, because anyone across Australia can sign up to join a team and get this happening.
(09:10):
Yeah. So that's a program that we launched called Map for Change. Essentially we partner with
providers to encourage their support workers to go out and write reviews on the job.
And we made sure I gathered some feedback from a few providers. And the first thing that they say
we're on board as long as you make it extremely easy for us. So that's exactly what we did. So
(09:34):
the review form is pretty straightforward. It really takes less than 30 seconds for a support
worker to review a place. It's a downloadable web app. So it could be a website or you can just put
it on your phone and just click it open and have it ready on the go. And also we also provide
onboarding sheets for the providers to just send it off to support workers. We have scripts if they
(09:58):
want to do an in-person thing to encourage support workers. And we also have little awards that we're
giving out in May for providers and also the support workers themselves for the best quality
or the longest review, the best reviews, the most reviews. Something's just fun. And I think
one thing coming from me being a support worker in the past, I think it's just so meaningful to
(10:22):
me at the time if I got to kind of do one thing but also spread the impact and connect to a higher
meaning, I guess, as part of the job. Yeah, I love that so much because I think
that so often it gets forgotten about. And there's things like some places might say
(10:43):
they're accessible or they've got an accessible toilet, but then because they forget they put
boxes in front of the accessibility toilet or it's up a tiny step, you know, and you're like,
ah, no, that doesn't work. So I love the idea that anyone can, you know, pop in feedback. It's such
(11:09):
a great idea. And then having providers in particular also sign up and say, here we are.
Here we are. I also, one of the things I loved when I signed up to it was the social media
post that you've made that then a provider's logo just slots in and they can say, hey,
(11:37):
we've gotten on this app all over their social media. And I think it's such a great way to
spread the word and spread the love and everyone gets something out of that social media post.
Yeah. At the end of the day, when I started MAP4Change and why I started it was because I
feel like it's something that could benefit everyone. For the support workers, they might,
(12:02):
you know, find a nice place and they can do some different things with the people that
they're caring for. And for the providers, it's just a good initiative to put out a lot of impact
but with really not that much effort. And then having that social media post and showcasing
that this is something that we're proud to be doing and we want to give back to the community
(12:24):
and show that they're impact focused. And yeah, and for me, we get the data and then we have a
wider audience that's national and people traveling to Brisbane can also use that information. So it's
really just a win-win for everyone. Or traveling to Melbourne. Traveling to Brisbane. Everyone can
(12:49):
travel to Brisbane and find the places that they've never been to before. It's really good,
Sabrina. I love the story of how you first started out in the sector supporting someone with that
need and getting that real exposure. And to see a bit into their life and the struggles as you're
talking about that planning and how much that person went into going, well, I want to go get
(13:12):
fish and chips. And as you're saying, it's really simple for the vast majority of us. But for those
with those physical disabilities, it's really hard. When you're also talking about how you went
through uni and you were starting to build it with the club, I can hear a lot of data points and a
lot of research. And this is something that we don't see a lot in the sector, is planning and
(13:34):
building out and slowly creeping and getting incremental to incremental data points, looking
at real in-depth point and asking this question, what is going to work and what's the next step?
I'm also pretty sure based on that we had a Google form on Maps as a starting point,
and we've come a long way since day one. Do you want to just walk us through some of the insights
(13:57):
that you saw from the very beginning and capturing going, I want to see how do we get this working?
Looking at then what they gave you as well as the feedback and how we improve to get
to where you are today. It's a fascinating little area. Yeah. So it's been a pretty long
journey from having the idea till now. I think in the beginning, we started with just really
(14:19):
asking the questions about what do you need instead of just building out something that we
assumed people want. So we actually started with just posting surveys on Facebook groups. I think
in the NBI sector or disability sector, Facebook groups is really such a key connecting thing.
And the survey that we asked, we mainly asked how difficult did they find finding accessible venue
(14:45):
is and also what makes it difficult and what are the key things that they look for when they
call a place accessible. And we actually ended up having a hundred people fill out that survey,
mainly based in Victoria, but a bit nationally. And then we found that 82% of people find it
(15:06):
difficult to find accessible places. And 91% of people, basically 91 people, said that they found
the information that they find online or through calling is often inaccurate. So that is such a
huge thing that we have to solve. It's not only not knowing, but also a lack of accuracy in the
(15:27):
information that's out there. I think we all go to Google maps and we see the little tags like
step three with a tick, but it doesn't really mean anything because you might be step three, but
what if the footpath outside is extremely narrow or there's actually a step in the restaurant,
it just can't capture the nuance of what access is. So that's the first thing that we found that we
(15:50):
had to solve. And the second was just the, there's a lack of data, first of all, and second, there's
a lack of credibility in the data that's out there. So throughout building the platform,
one thing that we did is that we want venues to get involved as well so that we can scale a platform.
So we made a tailored form that's specifically for venues that kind of ensures the accuracy of
(16:17):
the data they put in while having the users also monitor it through user reviews. So it's kind of
like attacking the quality just in keeping that quality through multiple ways. So that's one of
the things that we found that we were able to do. So that's great. Thank you. And then other things,
I guess it's just really, really minor things, even just the accessibility of the platform itself,
(16:44):
what is intuitive, what is not, we had to really fine tune little words that just think about
thinking about the user journey through navigating the platform on how do we get them to get to where
we want them to be in the most intuitive way possible. And it took us a long time because I'm
looking at this platform eight hours a day, every day. And to me, it's like, oh, that's so intuitive.
(17:10):
But when I show it to a new person that has never seen the app before, they're like, how do I even
leave a review? I'm like, oh, that's, I can't confidently. So I really had to set up, actually
a user advisory board that has five members of people living with disability, and they all use
mobility aids and has access needs. So I really had to have quite a lot of sessions with them to
(17:36):
understand the needs and also do separate interviews. So co-designing is key. Look,
everyone at home, we're doing this on a Zoom call for at the moment. And Hannah and I are having
little fits of giggling going, clapping our hands and very excited with all of this, because this
is encapsulating what the principle of co-design really is. And building out, I'm really impressed.
(18:02):
And I think everyone, all the providers at home listening need to take a little bit of a step and
go, how do we look at the data points? What data points do we want? How do we want to start making
our service intuitive for our people? And it can be done as well. We just need to, you're showing
all of this and the success that we obviously can see that's happening with this. It goes a long way
(18:25):
to create the product that the people that we're serving actually need, rather than us going,
oh, it's really simple to leave a review. I can see that right here. But just because you and I
can see that and it's logical for us doesn't mean it's intuitive or logical for other people as well.
So yeah, I absolutely, 100% commend that. And I can see Hannah's face smiling away as well. And
(18:51):
I know she wants to say something. Yeah. Look, a user advisory board is a group or whatever people
want to call them is fantastic and is exactly what people should be doing. And I love this so,
(19:13):
so much. And TransLink could learn something from this because trying to use their app yesterday.
You're going to drop in quickly. You're going to drop in as much as you can throughout this episode,
aren't you Hannah? It was not accessible. Sabrina, I'd really like to touch on about
(19:37):
the advisory board there. First, starting off with, from when you identified that need with
that sort of point, how you went into engaging with people, building out the concept as well,
because I'm sure when you went to people, they weren't too sure what that was either, because
as much as the industry and sector goes, let's do co-design, it has unfortunately become a very
(19:58):
kind of like, boardroom bingo table, corporatey buzzword. But yeah, if you could walk through,
walk our listeners through how you sort of went through it, what the hurdles were to build it,
how you've engaged with it and how it kind of works on an ongoing basis, and also the benefits
that you're seeing as the business, how that's helped propel and help you work your business
(20:24):
into serving your customers. I think what helped me was that in the beginning, I wasn't really
trying to build a business. It was kind of, I started off as a passion project and then later
on, because there was traction, it just naturally came in with the business side. But starting as a
passion project, because I genuinely cared about the outcome and I genuinely care about how I get
(20:49):
there as well, that the process is user informed and it's not really not about me at the end of
the day, it's about the impact that I'm delivering to the people who need it. So in the beginning,
I was really just posting about my work, especially on Instagram, and it just works well with me,
because I'm already Instagram obsessed, so why not just do it on something that I'm building.
(21:11):
And then through there, I actually connected with a few creators with disability and actually just
wanted to be friends with them, because I'm like, it's so cool, we're in the same space,
we're advocating for the same things, I want to connect. And I think I had to learn later on that
networking could be so different in so many different spaces. But to me, if we're going in,
(21:36):
I'm not trying to really get anything out of it, I'm really just trying to connect as human to
human because I admire the work you do, and we have mutual respect for the work that we do,
and disconnecting as humans, and trying to build a community that's focused on the impact.
I work closely with Tanya, who's based in Brisbane, and she does, I think she runs a
(22:01):
support coordinator company. And then a lot of the times I talk to her about the strategy in
general, business things. And we just talk straight, really straight to each other, like,
oh, this is not going to work, this is going to work. And then we always say, excuse me if you
feel like I'm being mean. But I always say, please don't say that, because at the end of the day,
(22:24):
it's about the impact, and we're both trying to achieve the same goal. And I think that's just
what it's about. We're just getting a group of people together who care about the cause and the
impact, and at the end, the end goal. And we're all trying to hear, just trying to work our way.
(22:44):
Thank you so much for that. It's really good to hear, and I think you're right. Sometimes the
art of receiving and giving constructive criticism has been lost a little bit over the recent years.
But it definitely provides a good spot for some feedback, and sometimes it's needed as well.
We can be a little bit blinded by our own ideas and thoughts and preconceptions.
(23:09):
Yeah, I think from a lot of what I heard as well, I think especially when you're coming from a
company perspective that's not very humanized, you have a fixed branding, you have a fixed
brand tone, just no flexibility in things, which leads to you might have a board, but it then
becomes kind of tokenistic because you're not really taking in consideration of what they're
(23:32):
saying. But I think humanizing the brand and actually adding that flexibility gets people to
build trust, and that's a huge thing that companies should be doing.
Hannah and I are obviously fully in love with this, but what can you see with Behind the Scenes?
(23:52):
How many people have we got on the platform? How many providers are you engaging with? What territories
are you in? Also, what's next for an Access Maps? Yeah, so currently we have around 600 to 700 user
reviews plus venue self-listing on our platform, but through the Map for Change program, we're
(24:15):
really hoping to get more providers on board to just encourage more support workers to
add more data into the database to help everyone because everyone benefits and people can find new
places to go to. We currently have seven providers across four states that are on the Map for Change
program, but we're always welcoming more, and they can just send me an email at info at
(24:38):
inaccessmaps.com. I think one other thing that I kind of want to touch on that's really not
in the Map for Change side is that we actually work with councils as well, and a service they
actually pay for is that they could verify a listing. So they could verify a council-owned venue,
(24:59):
and what we do is that they pay us to verify listings, and then we send out a trained
lived experience assessor to go physically map the place and check if the information
is correct. So what I want to do with Inaccess Maps is also hire more people with disabilities
because I think it's really common.
(25:23):
I'm having a little happy dance in the background.
Hire more people with disabilities. Yes, of course. This is so good. Sorry, finish your
sentence. I accidentally cut you off, and I didn't mean to.
No, that's okay.
No, that's okay. One thing I want to do is hire more people with disabilities because I think
(25:46):
it's just so often that they get asked to do volunteer work, whether if it's boards, events,
or anything, and I just want to break that norm as well. So councils pay us, and then we hire
people with lived experience to go map those places, and we already pilot tested this service
(26:07):
with two councils in Victoria, and we already hired five assessors with disabilities to go out
to map over 50 places that our council owned Finnews. So when you go to our website, if you see
that place has a little tick next to their venue name, it means it's been checked by someone with
a disability to physically go there. That's just awesome. I don't think I've seen Hannah happy
(26:32):
dance in a podcast as much as this one. I feel like she's fangirling over this.
Yeah, absolutely fangirling.
So with those councils, please tell me Geelong City Council was on that?
Very Geelong.
You call them up and you tell them.
(26:55):
Okay, I will.
No, Sam should. Sam is from there. Sam should call them.
Sure. I'll get on to council. I might not have been in Geelong for about another 13 years.
Sorry, Geelong. Anyway, I like Brisbane. Go Brisbane.
(27:16):
You can call me a traitor. Look, sorry, we're really loving this. For providers out there
that want to hear more about the Map for Change and how to get their support workers in and also
getting any participants listening or people with a disability that want to check it out,
how do we get engaged to help get more data in there?
(27:38):
Yeah, so most information about Map for Change is on our LinkedIn page. So you can search N-Access,
E-N-Access. And if you want to just get involved, just send us an email at info at N-Access-Maps.com
or just send me a direct message on LinkedIn. My name is Sabrina Leung, L-E-U-N-G.
And we'll have all that information in the show notes so it's easy for people to find you.
(28:05):
Amazing. Thank you so much.
I love this idea. The other thing I'm going to add is that Ellie, our amazing producer extraordinaire,
is a coffee connoisseur. And I think we could add whether the coffee was any good or not
(28:27):
to your data points.
I think that's so important. I think everyone should talk about, I do a lot of reviews myself
and I always comment whether there's Wi-Fi or not because that to me is important. And I always like
to put that in the comments. And obviously... After this, the moment COVID stops, you're down
in the little alleyways at a coffee shop with your Wi-Fi, where are you getting the rest of this done?
(28:51):
Yeah. That will be the biggest thing you miss if you move up to Brisbane will be that. We don't
have that coffee culture up here. It is the saddest thing about... We love our coffee up here. Don't
get us wrong. I think Queensland are bigger coffee snobs than Victoria. But in terms of the cafe
culture, we don't have that up here. It's really disappointing. I love sitting in a cafe for seven
(29:15):
hours and just doing nothing but back when they had smoking out in an outdoor area.
That's so fair. But it's kind of my thing as well because I like to say mapping is part of the job,
but I'm actually just cafe hopping all the time. And it's just a great excuse for me to say I'm
(29:36):
working, but I'm really just chilling. It's become a way to write the lifestyle
off as a tax expense. Exactly. One more thing that just came to me is that it is also possible
that someone has a hidden disability and can still write a review of whether a place was accessible
(30:03):
for their disability. I had that at the same start. In terms of stuff like sensory overload,
lighting, that sort of stuff, do you capture that in there rather than just the physical access
points? So currently we're focusing on physical accessibility. We're keeping it quite straightforward,
which is accessible toilets, movement space, parking, and whether it's step free. But there's
(30:28):
a common section that people can add whatever they want to add to it. So Sabrina, our usual
question at the end of this is in your ideal world, what would the NDIS look like? But since
you're a little bit left adjacent to the NDIS specific, let's rephrase the question a little
bit. In your ideal world, what would accessibility in the community look like to you? In the
(30:50):
community? In an ideal world, I think accessibility is all about transparent information. And the
reason I say that it's because one place that is accessible for one person doesn't mean it's
accessible for another person. And they can even have contradicting access needs. They might need
(31:11):
something that someone else doesn't want to have. So it's really about open communication and
having and hearing people out and willing to ask those questions and actually take action from it.
So that's my ideal world with accessibility. We love that. A little happy dance. Awesome. Well,
(31:32):
Sabrina, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We've really loved talking to you and
hearing all about Maps for Change. So I encourage everyone to sign up and get on with it.
Now share it out in your Facebook feeds, get your friends on it. The more people that we can get
(31:52):
this, the more it and obviously the more data points you have, the more you can do with it.
And that takes a lot of people and a lot of crowd resourcing. But thank you so much once again.
Thank you so much, Sam. Thanks, Hannah. All right. Bye.
Thank you for listening. Please share with people you know. Until next time,
as the Green Brothers say, don't forget to be awesome.
We acknowledge the original owners of the land on which we podcast, whose stories were told for
(00:05):
thousands of years. Today we are recording in Mianjin. We pay our respects to elders past
and present who may be listening. Sovereignty was never ceded. A quick note before we get started
that there may be some swearing in today's podcast. If you don't like swearing or usually
listen with children in the car, you have been warned. This episode of What in the NDIS Now is
(00:32):
brought to you by Astalti. Astalti is the software solution for NDIS professionals built by NDIS
professionals. Astalti is my go-to software and Astalti is trusted and loved by hundreds of other
NDIS providers. I love how easy it is to use and how it keeps all my participant information,
(00:56):
notes and invoicing all in one place available to me anytime from any device. Sign up now
for your 14-day free trial. Head to Astalti.com.au to sign up now. See for yourself how much easier
managing all your NDIS business needs are by using Astalti. Thanks again to Astalti for sponsoring
(01:20):
today's episode. You're listening to What in the NDIS Now, a podcast where I, Hannah Redford,
and my friend Sam Rosenbaum interview participants and providers about all things NDIS.
(01:43):
Welcome everyone to the podcast episode. How are you going, Sam? Yeah, Hannah, really, really well. How about yourself? Yeah, I'm exhausted, actually. I've been really tired.
Actually, look, as you say that I felt, and I was saying really well, I'm going that kind of a little bit of a lie because yes, I feel 100% like that.
(02:08):
I tried going on our fabulous bus system in Brisbane yesterday and it sucked and it sucks.
And I have a few suggestions for the people who run our bus system, just one or two or 500.
(02:29):
So, yeah, yesterday I was a little more upset and discombobulated than I am today.
Oh, discombobulated. That can be the word of the day, everyone.
Love it. Well, Hannah, who have we got on today? We have Sabrina. Welcome to the podcast, Sabrina.
Thank you, Hannah. Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me here. No worries. I love having you here.
(02:53):
Yeah, we're so excited to talk to you about your app. But first, we always start the show with where did you grow up?
So I actually grew up in Hong Kong my entire life, really never left that place.
And I just moved to Australia, I think, six years ago. So pretty new, but not really.
(03:16):
Yep. And you chose Brisbane. Is Brisbane the only place you've been in Australia or lived rather?
So I actually moved to Melbourne and I'm based in Melbourne right now.
Yeah. Yes, sorry. I'm in the same place, but different time zone, guys.
(03:36):
No, that's awesome, Sabrina. And look, it won't be long until Hannah will be right and you will be up in Brisbane,
because we're both from Melbourne and we both moved up a while ago and we're both very much never looking back.
Oh my god, that's crazy. Because I kept saying that I feel like I will move to Brisbane.
And I also went to Brisbane two weeks ago and that's where I met a lot of my Brisbane connections
(04:02):
and somehow I got to Hannah to you as well, like on LinkedIn.
That's awesome. It's a small little world. It's great to get connected and Brisbane will be lucky to have you up here.
Love it.
So how did you get into the disability sector or adjacent?
So when I moved to Melbourne and I think it was the second year of my university degree,
(04:26):
it was during COVID and then everything switched to online.
So I was like, I really need a job because I just can't stay at home and no one could get out.
So I'm like, what's a job I can get out of my home and also something I have the skills,
because my resume really did not have much things on there.
So I just looked on online and found this disability support job and I applied for it.
(04:52):
Got rejected in the beginning, but somehow she got me back in again and did the second interview
and I got the job as a support worker. She hired, she's self-managed and she hired me directly.
And then I worked for her for three years. COVID was a tough time.
There was a period of time where I had to work two shifts a day, seven days a week for almost three
(05:15):
months because we couldn't find anyone to be the second support worker. And it was a lot of 4 AM
waking up and then she also had more of higher support needs. So a lot of times I get called in
in the middle of the day, in the middle of class, in the middle of the night. Yeah, it was difficult,
(05:35):
but that also meant I formed a really good relationship with her and yeah, led to all the
things afterwards. Amazing. So tell us about your app. So do you want to start with its name and
how you thought of it and what it kind of does, all of those things? We want to know everything.
(05:59):
Cool. For sure. So I run a platform and the name is In Access Maps. So E-N Access Maps.
Basically I started In Access Maps when I was kind of third year into my support work,
working job. And the person that I cared for, she is obsessed with fish and chips.
(06:24):
And she also used a power wheelchair. So the places she could go to was really limited
and she would spend an entire day to plan for an event with say like if she had to go out with her
mom the next day and she wanted to go to a new place, she would spend the day before to physically
go check so that she knows that she can feel safe when she actually goes. So at the time I was like,
(06:52):
I love food and I don't think about these things. Whether there's a step, whether there's an
accessible toilet, these things don't come to my mind and I just go in without thinking.
And I just felt like this is unfair and why if this is happening to her, it means it's happening
to a lot of people. So I kind of made her a promise that I'll help her find the best fish
(07:15):
and chip shop she can go to in Melbourne that's accessible. That's really how it started. And then
I was also at uni at the time so I told one of the student clubs that I want to start this,
I don't really know how to do it, can you help me? And they were kind enough to kind of give me a
volunteer team of students to really start building this. It was just a Google form attached to Google
(07:38):
Maps and I just posted everywhere on Facebook, got some traction and I'm like, this seems to go well
and it seems like a real big problem. Then it kind of went from there. Yeah. So what is it mainly
hospitality places that you're looking for? Yeah. So I feel like I might have missed exactly what
(08:00):
the app does, but essentially we're a website that connects people with disabilities to venues that
match their access needs. We started off with restaurants and cafes, but slowly we are also
expanding to tourist destinations because it's just, we just want people to have a good time and have
(08:20):
fun and there's so many experiences they can do. So starting with cafes and restaurants, but slowly
more and more things are added to the platform. Yeah. Awesome. And so one of the things I loved,
like we love this and we loved the idea that you're getting providers to sign up,
(08:43):
to get support workers to fill in the form to say, oh, I went out with someone today and this
wasn't accessible or this was accessible. And that helps build out the maps, no matter where you are
in Australia, because anyone across Australia can sign up to join a team and get this happening.
(09:10):
Yeah. So that's a program that we launched called Map for Change. Essentially we partner with
providers to encourage their support workers to go out and write reviews on the job.
And we made sure I gathered some feedback from a few providers. And the first thing that they say
we're on board as long as you make it extremely easy for us. So that's exactly what we did. So
(09:34):
the review form is pretty straightforward. It really takes less than 30 seconds for a support
worker to review a place. It's a downloadable web app. So it could be a website or you can just put
it on your phone and just click it open and have it ready on the go. And also we also provide
onboarding sheets for the providers to just send it off to support workers. We have scripts if they
(09:58):
want to do an in-person thing to encourage support workers. And we also have little awards that we're
giving out in May for providers and also the support workers themselves for the best quality
or the longest review, the best reviews, the most reviews. Something's just fun. And I think
one thing coming from me being a support worker in the past, I think it's just so meaningful to
(10:22):
me at the time if I got to kind of do one thing but also spread the impact and connect to a higher
meaning, I guess, as part of the job. Yeah, I love that so much because I think
that so often it gets forgotten about. And there's things like some places might say
(10:43):
they're accessible or they've got an accessible toilet, but then because they forget they put
boxes in front of the accessibility toilet or it's up a tiny step, you know, and you're like,
ah, no, that doesn't work. So I love the idea that anyone can, you know, pop in feedback. It's such
(11:09):
a great idea. And then having providers in particular also sign up and say, here we are.
Here we are. I also, one of the things I loved when I signed up to it was the social media
post that you've made that then a provider's logo just slots in and they can say, hey,
(11:37):
we've gotten on this app all over their social media. And I think it's such a great way to
spread the word and spread the love and everyone gets something out of that social media post.
Yeah. At the end of the day, when I started MAP4Change and why I started it was because I
feel like it's something that could benefit everyone. For the support workers, they might,
(12:02):
you know, find a nice place and they can do some different things with the people that
they're caring for. And for the providers, it's just a good initiative to put out a lot of impact
but with really not that much effort. And then having that social media post and showcasing
that this is something that we're proud to be doing and we want to give back to the community
(12:24):
and show that they're impact focused. And yeah, and for me, we get the data and then we have a
wider audience that's national and people traveling to Brisbane can also use that information. So it's
really just a win-win for everyone. Or traveling to Melbourne. Traveling to Brisbane. Everyone can
(12:49):
travel to Brisbane and find the places that they've never been to before. It's really good,
Sabrina. I love the story of how you first started out in the sector supporting someone with that
need and getting that real exposure. And to see a bit into their life and the struggles as you're
talking about that planning and how much that person went into going, well, I want to go get
(13:12):
fish and chips. And as you're saying, it's really simple for the vast majority of us. But for those
with those physical disabilities, it's really hard. When you're also talking about how you went
through uni and you were starting to build it with the club, I can hear a lot of data points and a
lot of research. And this is something that we don't see a lot in the sector, is planning and
(13:34):
building out and slowly creeping and getting incremental to incremental data points, looking
at real in-depth point and asking this question, what is going to work and what's the next step?
I'm also pretty sure based on that we had a Google form on Maps as a starting point,
and we've come a long way since day one. Do you want to just walk us through some of the insights
(13:57):
that you saw from the very beginning and capturing going, I want to see how do we get this working?
Looking at then what they gave you as well as the feedback and how we improve to get
to where you are today. It's a fascinating little area. Yeah. So it's been a pretty long
journey from having the idea till now. I think in the beginning, we started with just really
(14:19):
asking the questions about what do you need instead of just building out something that we
assumed people want. So we actually started with just posting surveys on Facebook groups. I think
in the NBI sector or disability sector, Facebook groups is really such a key connecting thing.
And the survey that we asked, we mainly asked how difficult did they find finding accessible venue
(14:45):
is and also what makes it difficult and what are the key things that they look for when they
call a place accessible. And we actually ended up having a hundred people fill out that survey,
mainly based in Victoria, but a bit nationally. And then we found that 82% of people find it
(15:06):
difficult to find accessible places. And 91% of people, basically 91 people, said that they found
the information that they find online or through calling is often inaccurate. So that is such a
huge thing that we have to solve. It's not only not knowing, but also a lack of accuracy in the
(15:27):
information that's out there. I think we all go to Google maps and we see the little tags like
step three with a tick, but it doesn't really mean anything because you might be step three, but
what if the footpath outside is extremely narrow or there's actually a step in the restaurant,
it just can't capture the nuance of what access is. So that's the first thing that we found that we
(15:50):
had to solve. And the second was just the, there's a lack of data, first of all, and second, there's
a lack of credibility in the data that's out there. So throughout building the platform,
one thing that we did is that we want venues to get involved as well so that we can scale a platform.
So we made a tailored form that's specifically for venues that kind of ensures the accuracy of
(16:17):
the data they put in while having the users also monitor it through user reviews. So it's kind of
like attacking the quality just in keeping that quality through multiple ways. So that's one of
the things that we found that we were able to do. So that's great. Thank you. And then other things,
I guess it's just really, really minor things, even just the accessibility of the platform itself,
(16:44):
what is intuitive, what is not, we had to really fine tune little words that just think about
thinking about the user journey through navigating the platform on how do we get them to get to where
we want them to be in the most intuitive way possible. And it took us a long time because I'm
looking at this platform eight hours a day, every day. And to me, it's like, oh, that's so intuitive.
(17:10):
But when I show it to a new person that has never seen the app before, they're like, how do I even
leave a review? I'm like, oh, that's, I can't confidently. So I really had to set up, actually
a user advisory board that has five members of people living with disability, and they all use
mobility aids and has access needs. So I really had to have quite a lot of sessions with them to
(17:36):
understand the needs and also do separate interviews. So co-designing is key. Look,
everyone at home, we're doing this on a Zoom call for at the moment. And Hannah and I are having
little fits of giggling going, clapping our hands and very excited with all of this, because this
is encapsulating what the principle of co-design really is. And building out, I'm really impressed.
(18:02):
And I think everyone, all the providers at home listening need to take a little bit of a step and
go, how do we look at the data points? What data points do we want? How do we want to start making
our service intuitive for our people? And it can be done as well. We just need to, you're showing
all of this and the success that we obviously can see that's happening with this. It goes a long way
(18:25):
to create the product that the people that we're serving actually need, rather than us going,
oh, it's really simple to leave a review. I can see that right here. But just because you and I
can see that and it's logical for us doesn't mean it's intuitive or logical for other people as well.
So yeah, I absolutely, 100% commend that. And I can see Hannah's face smiling away as well. And
(18:51):
I know she wants to say something. Yeah. Look, a user advisory board is a group or whatever people
want to call them is fantastic and is exactly what people should be doing. And I love this so,
(19:13):
so much. And TransLink could learn something from this because trying to use their app yesterday.
You're going to drop in quickly. You're going to drop in as much as you can throughout this episode,
aren't you Hannah? It was not accessible. Sabrina, I'd really like to touch on about
(19:37):
the advisory board there. First, starting off with, from when you identified that need with
that sort of point, how you went into engaging with people, building out the concept as well,
because I'm sure when you went to people, they weren't too sure what that was either, because
as much as the industry and sector goes, let's do co-design, it has unfortunately become a very
(19:58):
kind of like, boardroom bingo table, corporatey buzzword. But yeah, if you could walk through,
walk our listeners through how you sort of went through it, what the hurdles were to build it,
how you've engaged with it and how it kind of works on an ongoing basis, and also the benefits
that you're seeing as the business, how that's helped propel and help you work your business
(20:24):
into serving your customers. I think what helped me was that in the beginning, I wasn't really
trying to build a business. It was kind of, I started off as a passion project and then later
on, because there was traction, it just naturally came in with the business side. But starting as a
passion project, because I genuinely cared about the outcome and I genuinely care about how I get
(20:49):
there as well, that the process is user informed and it's not really not about me at the end of
the day, it's about the impact that I'm delivering to the people who need it. So in the beginning,
I was really just posting about my work, especially on Instagram, and it just works well with me,
because I'm already Instagram obsessed, so why not just do it on something that I'm building.
(21:11):
And then through there, I actually connected with a few creators with disability and actually just
wanted to be friends with them, because I'm like, it's so cool, we're in the same space,
we're advocating for the same things, I want to connect. And I think I had to learn later on that
networking could be so different in so many different spaces. But to me, if we're going in,
(21:36):
I'm not trying to really get anything out of it, I'm really just trying to connect as human to
human because I admire the work you do, and we have mutual respect for the work that we do,
and disconnecting as humans, and trying to build a community that's focused on the impact.
I work closely with Tanya, who's based in Brisbane, and she does, I think she runs a
(22:01):
support coordinator company. And then a lot of the times I talk to her about the strategy in
general, business things. And we just talk straight, really straight to each other, like,
oh, this is not going to work, this is going to work. And then we always say, excuse me if you
feel like I'm being mean. But I always say, please don't say that, because at the end of the day,
(22:24):
it's about the impact, and we're both trying to achieve the same goal. And I think that's just
what it's about. We're just getting a group of people together who care about the cause and the
impact, and at the end, the end goal. And we're all trying to hear, just trying to work our way.
(22:44):
Thank you so much for that. It's really good to hear, and I think you're right. Sometimes the
art of receiving and giving constructive criticism has been lost a little bit over the recent years.
But it definitely provides a good spot for some feedback, and sometimes it's needed as well.
We can be a little bit blinded by our own ideas and thoughts and preconceptions.
(23:09):
Yeah, I think from a lot of what I heard as well, I think especially when you're coming from a
company perspective that's not very humanized, you have a fixed branding, you have a fixed
brand tone, just no flexibility in things, which leads to you might have a board, but it then
becomes kind of tokenistic because you're not really taking in consideration of what they're
(23:32):
saying. But I think humanizing the brand and actually adding that flexibility gets people to
build trust, and that's a huge thing that companies should be doing.
Hannah and I are obviously fully in love with this, but what can you see with Behind the Scenes?
(23:52):
How many people have we got on the platform? How many providers are you engaging with? What territories
are you in? Also, what's next for an Access Maps? Yeah, so currently we have around 600 to 700 user
reviews plus venue self-listing on our platform, but through the Map for Change program, we're
(24:15):
really hoping to get more providers on board to just encourage more support workers to
add more data into the database to help everyone because everyone benefits and people can find new
places to go to. We currently have seven providers across four states that are on the Map for Change
program, but we're always welcoming more, and they can just send me an email at info at
(24:38):
inaccessmaps.com. I think one other thing that I kind of want to touch on that's really not
in the Map for Change side is that we actually work with councils as well, and a service they
actually pay for is that they could verify a listing. So they could verify a council-owned venue,
(24:59):
and what we do is that they pay us to verify listings, and then we send out a trained
lived experience assessor to go physically map the place and check if the information
is correct. So what I want to do with Inaccess Maps is also hire more people with disabilities
because I think it's really common.
(25:23):
I'm having a little happy dance in the background.
Hire more people with disabilities. Yes, of course. This is so good. Sorry, finish your
sentence. I accidentally cut you off, and I didn't mean to.
No, that's okay.
No, that's okay. One thing I want to do is hire more people with disabilities because I think
(25:46):
it's just so often that they get asked to do volunteer work, whether if it's boards, events,
or anything, and I just want to break that norm as well. So councils pay us, and then we hire
people with lived experience to go map those places, and we already pilot tested this service
(26:07):
with two councils in Victoria, and we already hired five assessors with disabilities to go out
to map over 50 places that our council owned Finnews. So when you go to our website, if you see
that place has a little tick next to their venue name, it means it's been checked by someone with
a disability to physically go there. That's just awesome. I don't think I've seen Hannah happy
(26:32):
dance in a podcast as much as this one. I feel like she's fangirling over this.
Yeah, absolutely fangirling.
So with those councils, please tell me Geelong City Council was on that?
Very Geelong.
You call them up and you tell them.
(26:55):
Okay, I will.
No, Sam should. Sam is from there. Sam should call them.
Sure. I'll get on to council. I might not have been in Geelong for about another 13 years.
Sorry, Geelong. Anyway, I like Brisbane. Go Brisbane.
(27:16):
You can call me a traitor. Look, sorry, we're really loving this. For providers out there
that want to hear more about the Map for Change and how to get their support workers in and also
getting any participants listening or people with a disability that want to check it out,
how do we get engaged to help get more data in there?
(27:38):
Yeah, so most information about Map for Change is on our LinkedIn page. So you can search N-Access,
E-N-Access. And if you want to just get involved, just send us an email at info at N-Access-Maps.com
or just send me a direct message on LinkedIn. My name is Sabrina Leung, L-E-U-N-G.
And we'll have all that information in the show notes so it's easy for people to find you.
(28:05):
Amazing. Thank you so much.
I love this idea. The other thing I'm going to add is that Ellie, our amazing producer extraordinaire,
is a coffee connoisseur. And I think we could add whether the coffee was any good or not
(28:27):
to your data points.
I think that's so important. I think everyone should talk about, I do a lot of reviews myself
and I always comment whether there's Wi-Fi or not because that to me is important. And I always like
to put that in the comments. And obviously... After this, the moment COVID stops, you're down
in the little alleyways at a coffee shop with your Wi-Fi, where are you getting the rest of this done?
(28:51):
Yeah. That will be the biggest thing you miss if you move up to Brisbane will be that. We don't
have that coffee culture up here. It is the saddest thing about... We love our coffee up here. Don't
get us wrong. I think Queensland are bigger coffee snobs than Victoria. But in terms of the cafe
culture, we don't have that up here. It's really disappointing. I love sitting in a cafe for seven
(29:15):
hours and just doing nothing but back when they had smoking out in an outdoor area.
That's so fair. But it's kind of my thing as well because I like to say mapping is part of the job,
but I'm actually just cafe hopping all the time. And it's just a great excuse for me to say I'm
(29:36):
working, but I'm really just chilling. It's become a way to write the lifestyle
off as a tax expense. Exactly. One more thing that just came to me is that it is also possible
that someone has a hidden disability and can still write a review of whether a place was accessible
(30:03):
for their disability. I had that at the same start. In terms of stuff like sensory overload,
lighting, that sort of stuff, do you capture that in there rather than just the physical access
points? So currently we're focusing on physical accessibility. We're keeping it quite straightforward,
which is accessible toilets, movement space, parking, and whether it's step free. But there's
(30:28):
a common section that people can add whatever they want to add to it. So Sabrina, our usual
question at the end of this is in your ideal world, what would the NDIS look like? But since
you're a little bit left adjacent to the NDIS specific, let's rephrase the question a little
bit. In your ideal world, what would accessibility in the community look like to you? In the
(30:50):
community? In an ideal world, I think accessibility is all about transparent information. And the
reason I say that it's because one place that is accessible for one person doesn't mean it's
accessible for another person. And they can even have contradicting access needs. They might need
(31:11):
something that someone else doesn't want to have. So it's really about open communication and
having and hearing people out and willing to ask those questions and actually take action from it.
So that's my ideal world with accessibility. We love that. A little happy dance. Awesome. Well,
(31:32):
Sabrina, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We've really loved talking to you and
hearing all about Maps for Change. So I encourage everyone to sign up and get on with it.
Now share it out in your Facebook feeds, get your friends on it. The more people that we can get
(31:52):
this, the more it and obviously the more data points you have, the more you can do with it.
And that takes a lot of people and a lot of crowd resourcing. But thank you so much once again.
Thank you so much, Sam. Thanks, Hannah. All right. Bye.
Thank you for listening. Please share with people you know. Until next time,
as the Green Brothers say, don't forget to be awesome.
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