November 29, 2023 • 33 mins
For most of us, climate change is a heavy topic. Ethan Brown has made it his mission to make environmental issues more approachable and understandable--by using humor. His website and podcast, aptly titled "The Sweaty Penguin," is able to cut through the noise and the doom-and-gloom of the climate conversation with late-night-comedy-style monologues and in-depth conversations with leading global experts on a variety of environmental issues. In this episode, Ethan shares how he went from being a college student with an interest in satire (but not necessarily climate change) to using his voice--literally--for this important cause. Ethan also gives concrete advice we all can use to help the climate crisis (and no, you don't necessarily have to become vegan and bike to work every day!).
In this episode:
01:48: Why and how Ethan got into taking a humorous approach to climate change
05:04: How The Sweaty Penguin creates episodes--"deep dives," monologues, experts, and more
07:48: How Ethan weaves "the philosophy of comedy" into his podcasts
09:38: Dealing with climate change as a scientific--not a political--issue
12:54: Why Ethan feels optimistic about the future
15:46: Five things we all can do to help the climate crisis
19:59: Addressing the vegan vs. meat-eating debate in the climate change conversation
27:36: What Ethan has learned about himself and about the issues in the past few years
Want to know more about Ethan and The Sweaty Penguin?
- Follow them on Instagram: @ethanbrown5151, @sweatypenguinpod
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- Search for them on X: @ethanbrown5151, @sweatpenguinpod
- Go to The Sweaty Penguin website: www.thesweatypenguin.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ethan (00:08):
mission is to make climate change less
overwhelming, less politicizedand more fun.
Seeing the way that peopleresonate with our content on
both sides of the aisle, I'mjust too inspired to stop.
I feel like we're doingsomething really special and
anything I can do in service ofthat, I want to do.
Elizabeth (00:30):
Hello, and welcome to What It's Like To, the podcast
that lets you walk in someoneelse's shoes and live
vicariously through their uniqueexperiences.
I'm your host, formerjournalist, Elizabeth Pearson
Garr.
And each episode, I'll be askinga new interviewee all the what,
why, when, and wheres of howthey do what they do.
(00:51):
If they can do it, so can you.
The words climate change makemost of us feel pretty anxious
or worried or maybe frustrated,probably not uplifted.
Ethan Brown set out to changeall that.
He started a program called TheSweaty Penguin, which brings
(01:12):
levity to these importantissues.
He uses late night comedy stylemonologues and expert interviews
to cut through the doom andgloom of the climate
conversation.
The Sweaty Penguin is inpartnership with PBS's Peril and
Promise, with the goal of makingclimate change less
overwhelming, less politicized,and more fun.
Ethan, welcome to the podcast.
(01:32):
I'm so happy to have you here totalk about this really important
topic.
Ethan (01:36):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Elizabeth (01:39):
Thank you.
How did you decide to get intotalking about climate change and
to take this different take onit to take a more lighthearted
approach to it?
Ethan (01:48):
So when I first learned about climate change, probably
around high school, I found itreally scary, really
overwhelming, but notinteresting.
It was not something I wanted togo learn about.
And so I was going to collegefor film and television.
I wanted to be a storyteller.
So I felt like I needed a storyto tell.
(02:08):
So I took a few environmentalclasses.
electives.
And that was when I realizedthat there was so much more to
this than the doom and gloomheadlines that we see there are
a lot of nuances and criticalthinking involved with these
issues.
So many different solutions outthere, a lot of progress that's
already happened.
And so I felt like that wassomething I wanted to
(02:29):
communicate.
And I ended up getting a dualdegree with environmental
analysis and policy.
At the same time, I was runningBU's satire publication, The
Bunion, for two years.
We grew it from just myself whenI took over to 90 people over
two years, which was an amazingopportunity, but it also taught
me a lot about how to makesomething overwhelming into
(02:50):
something entertaining.
Combining both that comedyinterest with all that I was
learning in these classes, I hadthe idea for The Sweaty Penguin
in early quarantine.
And now three years later, herewe are.
Elizabeth (03:02):
And so it started as a podcast or what was the first
germ of what it was?
Ethan (03:07):
So the very, very first iteration of The Sweaty Penguin
was actually the summer goinginto freshman year of college.
I wanted to learn more about theenvironment.
And so I started a, satire newssite where I was writing, Onion
style articles on environmentalnews stories, and it was a good
experience for me to startlearning, but it didn't really
(03:28):
work because people weren'tfollowing environmental news, so
they didn't get the jokes, so Idid that for a few months and
then called it, but I alwaysloved the concept of using
comedy to turn climate changeless overwhelming.
So once quarantine hit, I waswatching a lot of John Oliver
and Hasan Minhaj at the timestuck inside and I realized this
(03:49):
might be the right way to do it,to take on specific issues and
inject comedy that way.
Elizabeth (03:54):
yeah, I think it's a really brilliant take because it
makes it approachable, I thinkso many of us just feel like we
know that this is the mostpressing issue of our time.
And yet it feels so hard to takein, it's like, Okay, I have
electric cars or I should haveless of a carbon footprint or it
just feels like how can I evenmake an impact another
(04:15):
depressing story, anotheroverwhelming anecdote, and here
you have this approach to reallydraw people in and educate them
at the same time.
Ethan (04:24):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think the comedy can drawpeople in, but so much of what
we do is also about, puttingforth solutions to these issues
and showing how these solutionsaren't sacrifices.
They're things that can help theenvironment, the economy,
health, justice, just generallivelihoods.
I think that brings a lot ofhope and excitement to some of
these issues as well.
And so hopefully comedy mightget people in the door, but I
(04:47):
hope it's our substance thatkeeps people around.
Elizabeth (04:50):
can you walk me through how you go about
creating an episode?
will you just, hear about atopic or an issue going on and
then get into the substance ofit and then create the comedy
around it?
Or how do you flesh the wholething out?
Ethan (05:04):
So we have two primary types of episodes.
One we call them our deep divesbecause penguin pun.
And those have been, since thebeginning, basically We pick a
issue and we, do a monologuethat breaks down how the issue
affects the environment, theeconomy, health, justice,
security, whatever it intersectswith.
(05:25):
And then in our second segment,we focus on solutions.
So what are a variety ofdifferent options for how we can
move forward?
How we can address differentelements of the issue.
And in those episodes, we'llbring in an expert interview as
well.
We bring on professors and we'vehad on, folks from, I believe
now, 18 countries and sixcontinents.
and we can take their academicresearch and translate it into
(05:46):
normal people language for youand me,
Elizabeth (05:48):
which is a skill in its own right to do that.
Ethan (05:51):
we had a expert early on who was so thankful because his
family finally understood whathe did for a living.
So those episodes, we actuallypursue the expert.
First, we'll find someone whoseresearch intrigues us.
Figure out a way we can presentit in a more compelling way than
an academic paper.
We'll bring them in, we'll do aninterview, and then we will pair
(06:14):
up a researcher and a comedywriter on our team.
So the researcher will create anoutline, we'll have a meeting
and talk about it, then they'llwrite.
A, joke free draft of thescript, and then the comedy
writer will come in, they'll addjokes, but they'll also do a
pass where they're like, thismakes no sense, or this is
confusing, so I think thatcollaboration is really useful.
Then it will come to me, I'll doa bunch of revisions, record,
(06:37):
and send it off to our editor.
That whole process, can take,sometimes even three to six
months.
Then we have our tip of theiceberg episode, those are
shorter and those are more onwhatever the big climate news
story of the week is.
I'll write those myself.
I usually try to offer some sortof either contextualization or
(06:58):
opinion or something to Addsomething new to whatever the
conversation is around thatstory and help our listeners
understand it.
So that I'll write a draft, sendit off to our comedy writers,
they'll add some jokes, send itback, we'll record and edit, and
that one we turn around in abouta week.
Elizabeth (07:16):
It's interesting that you have comedy, writers like
actual professional comedywriters, quote, unquote, like
the late night shows How do youknow how far to go?
I guess because These areserious topics.
They have very seriousimplications, but you are.
Taking a comedic lightheartedspin on them.
So are you just using your ownbest judgment on lighthearted,
(07:38):
take to, or, how far to go withsome of these jokes?
Ethan (07:42):
it's actually pretty rare for that to be the conversation,
which I think surprises people,but really, I was thinking
recently about learning aboutthe philosophy of comedy in
college, and there were twotheories that I believe it was
Aristotle who put forth at leastone of them,
Elizabeth (08:00):
philosophy and comedy.
I like it.
Ethan (08:02):
theory and incongruity theory and superiority theory is
the idea that we you.
laugh because we feel superiorto something.
So if we see someone with asilly mask on and then Oh,
that's embarrassing for you andwe laugh or, sometimes that can
be taken too far, of course, buton the flip side, incongruity
(08:22):
theory is where we laugh becausewe see two things that we just
did not expect to fit together.
So that I think it can be a morenuanced type of humor, but it is
a lot of ways that a set up anda punchline is we're familiar
with, like the punchline willsurprise us.
And that's why we laugh.
So I think that a lot of ourhumor is based on that second
(08:44):
one, the incongruity theory wesee in a lot of these stories
that there's just strangecombinations of things that
happen that we can comment on,or we can draw a silly analogy,
or we can write a skit that noone would expect coming related
to a story.
So in that sense, I think we dohave to be mindful.
(09:04):
But in general, I think usingthat mindset makes it pretty
simple to at least avoidcreating humor that doesn't seem
befitting of the seriousness ofthe issue.
Elizabeth (09:16):
That makes a lot of sense to me.
And I think sometimes it's nothumor at the expense of someone
or of serious topic, but it isalso more just bringing it down
to earth, like bringing it to ahuman level also, and just
making it not so serious.
Yes.
That can be lighthearted in itsown right.
It doesn't have to be cutting.
Ethan (09:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth (09:38):
that that's, Climate change has unfortunately become
very politicized in our cultureso how do you deal with that
getting away from this rightversus left issue it actually
is.
a scientific climate issue.
So how do you frame that in your
Ethan (09:54):
I feel very fortunate that I grew up in a town that
was about 50 50 liberal andconservative.
So I've always been exposed toboth sides and I've always found
it interesting to learn fromboth sides.
And I think getting intoenvironment, I very early would
write articles and I'd send itto liberal friends and
conservative friends andeveryone would like them.
(10:16):
And so I realized I had a knackfor Reaching both sides.
So that was a big reason why Iwanted to start something.
I felt that there just wasn't alot of environmental news that
didn't have some political bentto it.
And I could maybe provide thatthrough my work.
So I think there's a number ofways in which we go about it.
(10:38):
When we talk about solutions, wetry to present a variety of
options and discuss the pros andcons of all of them.
So I'm always thinking aboutwhat types of policies might
people on the left like, whatmight people on the right like,
and how can I communicate bothof them and communicate the pros
and cons of both of them.
Similarly, with problems, I tryto explore, like I said, how it
(10:58):
affects not just theenvironment, but the economy,
health, justice.
I think when we can have more ofa tangible connection to an
issue, and it's not just aboutsome abstract climate thing.
I think that can often bringpeople in more.
And then lastly, I think reallyat the core of what we're doing
is trying to combat climateanxiety and climate anxiety, I
(11:20):
think, is a bigger term thanpeople realize.
I think when we hear that term,we think of young people who are
just freaked out and nihilism,doom and gloom type
Elizabeth (11:32):
yeah,
Ethan (11:32):
reaction, but I think it also extends to people who deny
climate change or people who areindifferent about climate
change.
I think that anxiety is feelingoverwhelmed, feeling anxious.
It can lead us to disengage withan issue.
So sometimes you might go toofar and just feel doomed other
times.
You might try to just put thewhole thing out of mind entirely
(11:55):
and so when we're targeting thatemotion, I think that we bring
in all of those groups eventhough they seem opposed to each
other.
I think that they're actuallydifferent reactions to a similar
phenomenon, so we're able tobring in everybody by doing
that, and then I hope ourcontent can lead them to some
interesting paths forward.
Elizabeth (12:14):
Yeah.
I think it does because we weresaying, it's not a political
issue.
It doesn't have to do withpolitics.
It has to do with theenvironment and it has to do
with science.
So we all need to be concernedwith it.
No matter where we stand on thepolitical spectrum.
So it's a worthy conversationfor everyone to have.
So I'm glad that you're engagingpeople in it.
Do you ever start to feel gloomyor anxious about it?
(12:37):
living in this all the timebecause our world is so full.
We've got the wildfires and snowin Los Angeles last year.
And, we have so many oddoccurrences.
We're just seeing it more andmore.
And do you ever start to getdown about it?
Or you continue to be energizedby.
the topic of your work.
Ethan (12:54):
There are some times where I've felt down, but more
often than not, I feeloptimistic.
One that made me feel a littleoverwhelmed was, I shouldn't say
a little last year, the Guardianreleased a investigation on
carbon bombs, which are oil andgas projects that from start to
(13:14):
finish would emit 1, 000, 000,000 tons or more of carbon
dioxide and for context in 2019,the entire world emitted 59
billion tons of carbon dioxide.
So 000 for a single project is alot and their investigation
found that around the world,there are 195 planned oil and
(13:37):
gas carbon bombs that togetherwould emit 646 billion tons of
CO2 and that alone would blowpast our climate goals.
Now, as I've researched this,I've learned that assumes that
we extract all of the oil andgas in the ground at every
single one of these sites, whichwill Not happen.
It's just not economicallyviable to do that.
(13:59):
But it's a big deal.
And what I did to try to get myhead around it and make it less
overwhelming for people is wedecided to start just.
Going down the list one by one,and now every third deep dive of
ours is an episode on a specificcarbon bomb, and by hyper
localizing it like that, we'vefound that each of these sites
(14:22):
has a a variety of issues but avariety of solutions that are
unique to that region and avariety of stories that are
unique to that region And so Ithink each time we go down that
list I find more and more hopewithin each of these stories
about how we can move forwardand I think that goes to the
bigger picture.
We try to break down theseissues one by one and In doing
(14:44):
that, we find all thesesolutions.
We find all this progress, allthis tangible reason to be
optimistic.
And so that's why, even thoughwe do run into some sad stories,
I ultimately come out the otherside feeling hopeful and
optimistic.
Elizabeth (14:58):
Good.
That's reassuring as someone whospends their day in and day out
on this.
I appreciate that.
advice do you give to people forliving their lives?
Because I hear both sides of thestory, frankly, I know people
who try to do every little thingthey can from driving an
electric car to composting andthen I hear other people say all
that stuff is just a drop in thebucket because the real issues
(15:23):
are.
what our government is doing andwho cares about the electric
cars.
It's how many plane flightsyou're taking.
And, people are justifyingthings left and right.
And so what do you say topeople, just individuals about
how we can each contribute tothis global crisis?
Ethan (15:40):
Yeah, I think it's a tricky conversation because I
think both of those perspectiveshave merit and to me, where I
think individual action can bemost beneficial is in creating
community level change.
And so with that in mind, thefive things I like to tell
people, one are you can find lowhanging fruit.
(16:00):
So for me, for example, unlessI'm coming on a show like this,
I'm not a big fashion person.
So I will always try to wear myclothes as long as they last.
And when they have holes inthem, I turn them into pajama
shirts and I never really go outand buy the new fast fashion
trends, which have a largecarbon and water footprint
associated with them on the flipside, I.
(16:22):
really love meat, and a plantbased diet can be more
effective, but it's just notsomething that I can incorporate
into my life, bothrealistically, and also I have
food allergies that wouldprevent it.
So I think patting myself on theback for what I can do well, but
not feeling bad about the thingsI'm not as good at is really
important.
Second is to Do your research soyou mentioned electric vehicles
(16:45):
and those are a very promisingsolution, but at the same time
is a lower carbon footprint todrive your current vehicle to
the end of its life.
And then buy an electric vehicleas opposed to junking a
perfectly good gasoline poweredcar for the new trendy EV,
because it takes emissions tocreate the vehicle as well as
(17:06):
the gasoline that you burn.
Things like that.
It's important to understand thenuances of these issues and do
your research.
So you can actually have thedesired impact.
Number three is to uplift otherswho do good things.
So I know there's a lot of veganbashing in the U S I'm not a
vegan myself, but I have theutmost respect for anyone who's
able to do that.
(17:26):
I always try to encourage themin the right direction.
But there are actually studiesthat have shown that products
have their sales tank whenthey're labeled vegan.
it's...
Elizabeth (17:35):
Oh, wow.
Ethan (17:36):
I Think it's important that...
even if we can't do everythingourselves, we encourage others
who are doing good things anddon't make them feel bad for it.
Number four is to use yourvoice.
For some people, that might beactivism or protesting, but that
wasn't right for me.
I love nuance way too much towrite something on a sign.
I hate crowds and loud noises,but writing and podcasting and
(17:58):
communicating was something Iwas good at.
So that's what I decided to do.
If someone else is into socialmedia or just doing stuff in
their home or their work orwhatever, that's all well and
good.
And then lastly, and what Ithink is most important is, talk
to people you disagree with, andit doesn't have to be about
climate or politics.
It can be about books or moviesor sports.
(18:18):
But if we get better at havingthose conversations, I think it
can make a real difference.
Historically, we've seen that inthe 1970s, we had a Democratic
Congress and Republicanpresidents.
Nixon and Ford, and in those 6years, we passed the Clean Air
Act, Clean Water Act, NationalEnvironmental Policy Act,
Endangered Species Act,established the Environmental
Protection Agency, establishedthe National Oceanic and
(18:40):
Atmospheric Administration, hadthe first Earth Day, and a whole
lot more in a dividedgovernment, and that was because
people were willing to talk topeople they disagreed with and
find common ground on thatimportant issue.
So if today we can have thoseconversations better and we
don't have to be friends, but wecan at the very least listen to
each other and learn eachother's perspectives.
(19:01):
It can really make a bigdifference in an environmental
policy.
Elizabeth (19:04):
I couldn't agree more.
And in just sort of generalcivility, think that in these
last I don't know that we trulyare.
I think we're actually have muchmore in common than we do in
opposition to another, if wewould just have the
conversations, clearly, thereare some differences of
opinions, but if we would talkto one another and talk to
people that we do have somedifferences with and try to
(19:26):
understand where we disagree,why we disagree, try to
understand where that person iscoming from and try to
understand some of ourcommonalities.
We're not as far apart as wemight be, and we could come to
some more consensus.
So that's a point well taken.
Ethan (19:42):
I appreciate that.
Elizabeth (19:43):
You mentioned vegans, and I know you've done a lot of
podcast episodes on foods andbeverages, and think some people
have this notion that stoppingclimate change requires people
to change their diets, and youmentioned that, you you still
eat meat.
So can you address that Issue
Ethan (19:59):
So there is substance to the idea that a meat based diet
will have a bigger footprintthan a plant based diet, and the
reason why is just biology.
There's something called a feedconversion ratio where you
measure the amount of feed ittakes to grow a animal 1
(20:20):
kilogram.
And so it might take 1.
8 or 2 kilograms of feed to growa chicken 1 kilogram.
With cattle, it can take, Sixkilograms of feed to grow a cow
one kilogram.
So that's just a mathematical,biological fact where it takes
more resources to create meatthan it does to create.
plant based food.
(20:40):
That said, the fact that a cowcan turn grass, which has no
nutritional value, into proteinis pretty remarkable.
That a pig can turn corn intobacon.
It's a magic trick I would loveto see.
So I think that there is meritto those foods, even though it
(21:01):
does require more resources.
That said, there are otheraspects of this that can be
addressed.
So I think there's a lot of famearound the issue of cows
belching methane Methane is agreenhouse gas that is around 29
times as potent as carbondioxide over a 100 year period.
But we can actually reduce thoseemissions.
(21:21):
We had an expert on one of theleading researchers in trying to
add seaweed to cattle feed toreduce the methane reaction in
their stomachs and lead to lessmethane emissions.
So regenerative Agriculturepractices, we can rotate crops,
we can do all these differentthings.
(21:42):
So when we get so focused in onthe diets, I think it misses the
bigger picture.
There are ways we can improvethe carbon footprints of all of
these foods.
And furthermore, what is areally important conversation
is.
How climate change affects thefoods as opposed to how the
foods affect climate change.
So we have a lot of episodes ona variety of products and way
(22:04):
more often than not, we'retalking about how these foods
are responding to drought, tonew storms, to higher
temperatures, coldertemperatures.
That's an important issue aswell that I think goes under
discussed.
Elizabeth (22:17):
yeah.
I remember a couple years agoseeing that in California,
lettuce was so much moreexpensive because of the
drought.
And, you could go on and on withall the different crops that are
affected by climate change.
I also was interested, so you'rea member of gen Z.
Are you generation Z.
Is that where, yeah, you are.
So I think a lot of people thinkof Gen Z as being, very
(22:38):
activist.
You'd mentioned writing thesigns, being out protesting and
all of that.
And like you had said, you takea different approach.
You're not doing that.
you found your niche doingpodcasts?
I think it's a great example ofpeople find an issue, find
something you care about andfind the way that you feel like
you can best express yourself.
Ethan (22:57):
I never would have expected to be a podcast host.
I was the one making fun of incollege before I started it.
But I think in quarantine inparticular, it ended up being
the right medium for us.
One, because podcast audiencesskew younger, skew more
educated, skew moreintellectual.
And so we had a better chance ofreaching our desired audience
(23:21):
there.
I think that, yeah.
It would have been verydifficult to do something with
video in my parents' basementduring it gave us the ability to
add comedy in a way that wasdifferent from writing.
We could incorporate soundeffects and skits and that kind
of thing.
Whereas in written form, there'sonly so much that you can really
(23:41):
do.
So I've enjoyed the format.
I think that it has its pros andcons.
It can be easier to get peopleto read something you wrote as
opposed to a podcast, but I'mreally proud of the work that
we're doing and I'm glad thatit's resonating with people.
Elizabeth (23:56):
How did you get this collaboration with PBS?
Ethan (23:59):
So I interned with them in the summer of 2019.
And at the time they had twoinitiatives, one, Peril and
Promise, which was on climatechange.
The other, called Chasing theDream, was on poverty and
opportunity in America.
They've since added two more,one called Extreme Hate on anti
Semitism, racism, extremism, andthe other is called Preserving
(24:22):
Democracy.
that department basically.
It's a really small team.
I think it's six of them runningfour initiatives.
And so they work a lot withoutside content creators to
create content.
They'll commissiondocumentaries.
They'll work with internalpartners like PBS NewsHour,
Metro Focus Amanpour but they'llalso go outside the company.
(24:45):
And I had interned with them.
I knew that.
And then during COVID, they wereclearly having trouble getting
content.
One of their big shows concludedits run.
And so I reached out maybe eightmonths into The Sweaty Penguin.
And I was like, Hey, look, we'remaking this really cool show.
I know you guys need content.
We could really use some fundingso we can continue this.
(25:07):
And we struck up a licensingdeal and that's been going ever
since.
And it's been really great toget that recognition and that
notoriety as we've movedforward.
Elizabeth (25:16):
So the partnership is pretty much they're a sponsor
and then they help promote youor do you also do specific work
Ethan (25:24):
They license our episodes, they distribute them,
so you can find them on pbs.
org, and they pay us a licensingfee, which is a significant
portion of our funding today.
Elizabeth (25:35):
And how big is your team?
Ethan (25:37):
Our team is around 15 of us, besides myself everyone is
very part time, and it's allcollege students and recent
grads for Gen Z and by Gen Z,and it's an amazing group of
people to work with, and so coolto have a group that is
environmental majors, comedypeople, social media people,
journalists Sound editors, videoeditors it's a very special
(26:00):
group
Elizabeth (26:01):
I just think it's great that you came up with this
idea.
Then you, just made it happen.
Like those are the people that Ilike to talk to on my podcasts
are people who've have a passionand I'm sure you've had some
setbacks.
Everyone I've talked to has, hitsome walls, but they keep.
pursuing, right?
you keep pushing forward toachieve your dreams.
I really appreciate people likeyou who pursue something that
(26:22):
they love.
Ethan (26:23):
that means a lot.
Our mission is to make climatechange less overwhelming, less
politicized and more fun.
And people ask me where I seemyself in 5 or 10 years.
Whatever I can be doing inpursuit of that goal is where I
see myself.
And certainly we've had our fairshare of setbacks.
We still have a lot to figureout particularly on the
(26:44):
financial side, but seeing theway that people resonate with
our content on both sides of theaisle, I'm just too inspired to
stop.
I feel like we're doingsomething really special and
anything I can do in service ofthat, I want to do.
Elizabeth (27:00):
It's great.
I applaud you for it.
I think you have a great voicefor in a really important issue
and I love the name.
Was that just something thatcame to you one day?
Sweaty penguin?
Ethan (27:10):
It was actually my dad who thought of the name.
like I said, I was trying tostart that satire news site and
my dad had the idea and healways says, I'm free to use it
for whatever I want.
I just have to credit himanytime someone asks that
question.
Elizabeth (27:25):
Okay.
Thank you Dad.
I guess the last thing I'mcurious about this entire
process, whether it's aboutlearning about climate change
itself or about just startingthe business podcasting, What is
something or a few things thathas surprised you the most you
learned about yourself or aboutthe issues?
Ethan (27:43):
That's a good question.
About myself, I think that, likeI said, I had a little bit of
team management experience,especially running the Bunion in
college and growing that team.
I think it's very different whenwe are actually creating
something that isn't a studentclub, but outside of school.
(28:05):
I think in some ways it's verysimilar.
You still have to motivatepeople to want to be there.
It's not just, hey, we're payingyou.
So do your job.
You need to keep engaged, butthere's very different
challenges that come up withregard to running an
organization like thatparticularly for us having our
(28:26):
team.
So young.
It also leads to a lot ofturnover where people are
getting new opportunities intheir careers.
And I've always tried to,support that and work through
that.
So I give people glowingrecommendations when they're
ready to go to their next thing.
(28:46):
And we are doing hiring all thetime to try to find the next
leaders on our team.
And so we've
Elizabeth (28:53):
that takes a lot of time.
Ethan (28:55):
So we've had a lot of great people come through and
there have been times where likelast year we lost half of our
original team in about a month.
And that took a long time torecover from and figure out who
could take their place.
now we're in a place where onlythree of our team members,
myself included, have been herelonger than six months and we're
(29:16):
fine.
I'm so proud of the fact thatwe've figured out how to handle
that managerial challenge andkeep our team together.
From a.
Issues perspective, I thinksomething that surprised me in a
good way, number 1, just howmany solutions there are and how
much progress has happened.
The U.
S.
carbon emissions peaked in 2005and have come down 16 percent
(29:40):
since then and are continuingto, and we never talk about
that, but something else is, incollege, I learned about a
carbon lag.
Basically, the way carbondioxide works, we emit it into
the atmosphere.
It's there.
It's absorbing infraredradiation.
That kind of creates thisblanket that warms the planet.
Carbon dioxide stays in theatmosphere for over 100 years,
(30:01):
so there was a concern that oncehumans stop emitting carbon
dioxide, all this carbon dioxidethat we have already emitted is
still there, still absorbinginfrared radiation.
And as a result would still warmthe planet.
And then we'd be in a situationwhere we're not emitting carbon,
climate change is stillhappening, and that was going to
be a pain in the neck tocommunicate not to mention the
(30:23):
impacts that would come fromthat.
In reality, what scientists havelearned recently is that effect
is real, but at the same time,our oceans in particular, also
forests and other carbon sinks,but largely our oceans, are
sucking that carbon out of theatmosphere, and that process has
(30:43):
a cooling effect, and thewarming effect from the carbon
lag plus the cooling effect fromthe carbon absorption cancel
each other out.
And it means that once humansstop emitting carbon dioxide,
within about a few years, theclimate would stabilize where it
is.
And that to
Elizabeth (31:00):
Wow.
Ethan (31:01):
really encouraging because it means once we get to
carbon neutral it would be idealto continue and try to get
carbon negative and cool theplanet down to a more natural
level, but there's a light atthe end of the tunnel now.
This can happen in our lifetimesfor us to see climate change
stop and even reverse.
So that was really exciting tome.
And I think that gives a lotmore motivation to pursue
(31:24):
climate solutions.
Elizabeth (31:25):
but we need to keep our eye on the ball.
We can't let up on this becausewe're not there yet.
Ethan (31:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Elizabeth (31:31):
Thank you so much.
I've learned a lot and it's beengreat getting to know you and
learning more about SweatyPenguin.
Ethan (31:37):
Yeah.
Thank you again for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
Elizabeth (31:43):
I'll admit, I fall into the camp of people who feel
pretty drained by the topic ofglobal warming, so it was good
for me to talk to someone whosemission is to make climate
change less overwhelming, lesspoliticized, and more fun.
Here are my takeaways from myconversation with Ethan.
Number one, follow yourinterests and stay open to new
ideas.
(32:04):
Ethan wanted to be astoryteller.
He had no idea he'd end up usinghumor to educate people about
climate issues.
Two, don't just focus onproblems, come up with
solutions.
Turns out there are reasons tofeel optimistic, even about
climate change.
Three, Be thoughtful andintentional about how your
actions can be most impactfulregarding climate change.
(32:26):
4.
Uplift people who are doing goodthings.
Vegans and others who are makingconcerted efforts to help the
environment deserve our support,not our ridicule.
5.
Use your voice.
Protesting, writing, callingyour legislators, podcasting,
whatever best suits you, yourskill set and your personality.
And finally, number six, talk topeople you disagree with.
(32:49):
It doesn't have to be aboutclimate or politics.
It can be about books or moviesor sports.
if we get better at having thoseconversations and listening to
other people, it can make a realdifference.
I'd like to thank Ethan Brownfor talking with me and for the
good work he's doing.
You can learn more about Ethanand the Sweaty Penguin in the
show notes for this episode.
I'll also recap his five tipsfor how we each can help the
(33:12):
climate crisis.
If you like listening to peoplewho are working to make positive
changes in the world, check outepisode 32 with teacher, writer,
dad, and child advocate, MattKing.
And episode 28 with MeganWizceb, who turned her personal
heartbreak into hope for others.
I'm so grateful for your supportof this podcast.
If you're not alreadysubscribing, please do, and
(33:33):
please tell a few friends aboutit too.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr.
Thanks for being curious aboutWhat It's Like.
mission is to make climate change less
overwhelming, less politicizedand more fun.
Seeing the way that peopleresonate with our content on
both sides of the aisle, I'mjust too inspired to stop.
I feel like we're doingsomething really special and
anything I can do in service ofthat, I want to do.
Elizabeth (00:30):
Hello, and welcome to What It's Like To, the podcast
that lets you walk in someoneelse's shoes and live
vicariously through their uniqueexperiences.
I'm your host, formerjournalist, Elizabeth Pearson
Garr.
And each episode, I'll be askinga new interviewee all the what,
why, when, and wheres of howthey do what they do.
(00:51):
If they can do it, so can you.
The words climate change makemost of us feel pretty anxious
or worried or maybe frustrated,probably not uplifted.
Ethan Brown set out to changeall that.
He started a program called TheSweaty Penguin, which brings
(01:12):
levity to these importantissues.
He uses late night comedy stylemonologues and expert interviews
to cut through the doom andgloom of the climate
conversation.
The Sweaty Penguin is inpartnership with PBS's Peril and
Promise, with the goal of makingclimate change less
overwhelming, less politicized,and more fun.
Ethan, welcome to the podcast.
(01:32):
I'm so happy to have you here totalk about this really important
topic.
Ethan (01:36):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Elizabeth (01:39):
Thank you.
How did you decide to get intotalking about climate change and
to take this different take onit to take a more lighthearted
approach to it?
Ethan (01:48):
So when I first learned about climate change, probably
around high school, I found itreally scary, really
overwhelming, but notinteresting.
It was not something I wanted togo learn about.
And so I was going to collegefor film and television.
I wanted to be a storyteller.
So I felt like I needed a storyto tell.
(02:08):
So I took a few environmentalclasses.
electives.
And that was when I realizedthat there was so much more to
this than the doom and gloomheadlines that we see there are
a lot of nuances and criticalthinking involved with these
issues.
So many different solutions outthere, a lot of progress that's
already happened.
And so I felt like that wassomething I wanted to
(02:29):
communicate.
And I ended up getting a dualdegree with environmental
analysis and policy.
At the same time, I was runningBU's satire publication, The
Bunion, for two years.
We grew it from just myself whenI took over to 90 people over
two years, which was an amazingopportunity, but it also taught
me a lot about how to makesomething overwhelming into
(02:50):
something entertaining.
Combining both that comedyinterest with all that I was
learning in these classes, I hadthe idea for The Sweaty Penguin
in early quarantine.
And now three years later, herewe are.
Elizabeth (03:02):
And so it started as a podcast or what was the first
germ of what it was?
Ethan (03:07):
So the very, very first iteration of The Sweaty Penguin
was actually the summer goinginto freshman year of college.
I wanted to learn more about theenvironment.
And so I started a, satire newssite where I was writing, Onion
style articles on environmentalnews stories, and it was a good
experience for me to startlearning, but it didn't really
(03:28):
work because people weren'tfollowing environmental news, so
they didn't get the jokes, so Idid that for a few months and
then called it, but I alwaysloved the concept of using
comedy to turn climate changeless overwhelming.
So once quarantine hit, I waswatching a lot of John Oliver
and Hasan Minhaj at the timestuck inside and I realized this
(03:49):
might be the right way to do it,to take on specific issues and
inject comedy that way.
Elizabeth (03:54):
yeah, I think it's a really brilliant take because it
makes it approachable, I thinkso many of us just feel like we
know that this is the mostpressing issue of our time.
And yet it feels so hard to takein, it's like, Okay, I have
electric cars or I should haveless of a carbon footprint or it
just feels like how can I evenmake an impact another
(04:15):
depressing story, anotheroverwhelming anecdote, and here
you have this approach to reallydraw people in and educate them
at the same time.
Ethan (04:24):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think the comedy can drawpeople in, but so much of what
we do is also about, puttingforth solutions to these issues
and showing how these solutionsaren't sacrifices.
They're things that can help theenvironment, the economy,
health, justice, just generallivelihoods.
I think that brings a lot ofhope and excitement to some of
these issues as well.
And so hopefully comedy mightget people in the door, but I
(04:47):
hope it's our substance thatkeeps people around.
Elizabeth (04:50):
can you walk me through how you go about
creating an episode?
will you just, hear about atopic or an issue going on and
then get into the substance ofit and then create the comedy
around it?
Or how do you flesh the wholething out?
Ethan (05:04):
So we have two primary types of episodes.
One we call them our deep divesbecause penguin pun.
And those have been, since thebeginning, basically We pick a
issue and we, do a monologuethat breaks down how the issue
affects the environment, theeconomy, health, justice,
security, whatever it intersectswith.
(05:25):
And then in our second segment,we focus on solutions.
So what are a variety ofdifferent options for how we can
move forward?
How we can address differentelements of the issue.
And in those episodes, we'llbring in an expert interview as
well.
We bring on professors and we'vehad on, folks from, I believe
now, 18 countries and sixcontinents.
and we can take their academicresearch and translate it into
(05:46):
normal people language for youand me,
Elizabeth (05:48):
which is a skill in its own right to do that.
Ethan (05:51):
we had a expert early on who was so thankful because his
family finally understood whathe did for a living.
So those episodes, we actuallypursue the expert.
First, we'll find someone whoseresearch intrigues us.
Figure out a way we can presentit in a more compelling way than
an academic paper.
We'll bring them in, we'll do aninterview, and then we will pair
(06:14):
up a researcher and a comedywriter on our team.
So the researcher will create anoutline, we'll have a meeting
and talk about it, then they'llwrite.
A, joke free draft of thescript, and then the comedy
writer will come in, they'll addjokes, but they'll also do a
pass where they're like, thismakes no sense, or this is
confusing, so I think thatcollaboration is really useful.
Then it will come to me, I'll doa bunch of revisions, record,
(06:37):
and send it off to our editor.
That whole process, can take,sometimes even three to six
months.
Then we have our tip of theiceberg episode, those are
shorter and those are more onwhatever the big climate news
story of the week is.
I'll write those myself.
I usually try to offer some sortof either contextualization or
(06:58):
opinion or something to Addsomething new to whatever the
conversation is around thatstory and help our listeners
understand it.
So that I'll write a draft, sendit off to our comedy writers,
they'll add some jokes, send itback, we'll record and edit, and
that one we turn around in abouta week.
Elizabeth (07:16):
It's interesting that you have comedy, writers like
actual professional comedywriters, quote, unquote, like
the late night shows How do youknow how far to go?
I guess because These areserious topics.
They have very seriousimplications, but you are.
Taking a comedic lightheartedspin on them.
So are you just using your ownbest judgment on lighthearted,
(07:38):
take to, or, how far to go withsome of these jokes?
Ethan (07:42):
it's actually pretty rare for that to be the conversation,
which I think surprises people,but really, I was thinking
recently about learning aboutthe philosophy of comedy in
college, and there were twotheories that I believe it was
Aristotle who put forth at leastone of them,
Elizabeth (08:00):
philosophy and comedy.
I like it.
Ethan (08:02):
theory and incongruity theory and superiority theory is
the idea that we you.
laugh because we feel superiorto something.
So if we see someone with asilly mask on and then Oh,
that's embarrassing for you andwe laugh or, sometimes that can
be taken too far, of course, buton the flip side, incongruity
(08:22):
theory is where we laugh becausewe see two things that we just
did not expect to fit together.
So that I think it can be a morenuanced type of humor, but it is
a lot of ways that a set up anda punchline is we're familiar
with, like the punchline willsurprise us.
And that's why we laugh.
So I think that a lot of ourhumor is based on that second
(08:44):
one, the incongruity theory wesee in a lot of these stories
that there's just strangecombinations of things that
happen that we can comment on,or we can draw a silly analogy,
or we can write a skit that noone would expect coming related
to a story.
So in that sense, I think we dohave to be mindful.
(09:04):
But in general, I think usingthat mindset makes it pretty
simple to at least avoidcreating humor that doesn't seem
befitting of the seriousness ofthe issue.
Elizabeth (09:16):
That makes a lot of sense to me.
And I think sometimes it's nothumor at the expense of someone
or of serious topic, but it isalso more just bringing it down
to earth, like bringing it to ahuman level also, and just
making it not so serious.
Yes.
That can be lighthearted in itsown right.
It doesn't have to be cutting.
Ethan (09:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Elizabeth (09:38):
that that's, Climate change has unfortunately become
very politicized in our cultureso how do you deal with that
getting away from this rightversus left issue it actually
is.
a scientific climate issue.
So how do you frame that in your
Ethan (09:54):
I feel very fortunate that I grew up in a town that
was about 50 50 liberal andconservative.
So I've always been exposed toboth sides and I've always found
it interesting to learn fromboth sides.
And I think getting intoenvironment, I very early would
write articles and I'd send itto liberal friends and
conservative friends andeveryone would like them.
(10:16):
And so I realized I had a knackfor Reaching both sides.
So that was a big reason why Iwanted to start something.
I felt that there just wasn't alot of environmental news that
didn't have some political bentto it.
And I could maybe provide thatthrough my work.
So I think there's a number ofways in which we go about it.
(10:38):
When we talk about solutions, wetry to present a variety of
options and discuss the pros andcons of all of them.
So I'm always thinking aboutwhat types of policies might
people on the left like, whatmight people on the right like,
and how can I communicate bothof them and communicate the pros
and cons of both of them.
Similarly, with problems, I tryto explore, like I said, how it
(10:58):
affects not just theenvironment, but the economy,
health, justice.
I think when we can have more ofa tangible connection to an
issue, and it's not just aboutsome abstract climate thing.
I think that can often bringpeople in more.
And then lastly, I think reallyat the core of what we're doing
is trying to combat climateanxiety and climate anxiety, I
(11:20):
think, is a bigger term thanpeople realize.
I think when we hear that term,we think of young people who are
just freaked out and nihilism,doom and gloom type
Elizabeth (11:32):
yeah,
Ethan (11:32):
reaction, but I think it also extends to people who deny
climate change or people who areindifferent about climate
change.
I think that anxiety is feelingoverwhelmed, feeling anxious.
It can lead us to disengage withan issue.
So sometimes you might go toofar and just feel doomed other
times.
You might try to just put thewhole thing out of mind entirely
(11:55):
and so when we're targeting thatemotion, I think that we bring
in all of those groups eventhough they seem opposed to each
other.
I think that they're actuallydifferent reactions to a similar
phenomenon, so we're able tobring in everybody by doing
that, and then I hope ourcontent can lead them to some
interesting paths forward.
Elizabeth (12:14):
Yeah.
I think it does because we weresaying, it's not a political
issue.
It doesn't have to do withpolitics.
It has to do with theenvironment and it has to do
with science.
So we all need to be concernedwith it.
No matter where we stand on thepolitical spectrum.
So it's a worthy conversationfor everyone to have.
So I'm glad that you're engagingpeople in it.
Do you ever start to feel gloomyor anxious about it?
(12:37):
living in this all the timebecause our world is so full.
We've got the wildfires and snowin Los Angeles last year.
And, we have so many oddoccurrences.
We're just seeing it more andmore.
And do you ever start to getdown about it?
Or you continue to be energizedby.
the topic of your work.
Ethan (12:54):
There are some times where I've felt down, but more
often than not, I feeloptimistic.
One that made me feel a littleoverwhelmed was, I shouldn't say
a little last year, the Guardianreleased a investigation on
carbon bombs, which are oil andgas projects that from start to
(13:14):
finish would emit 1, 000, 000,000 tons or more of carbon
dioxide and for context in 2019,the entire world emitted 59
billion tons of carbon dioxide.
So 000 for a single project is alot and their investigation
found that around the world,there are 195 planned oil and
(13:37):
gas carbon bombs that togetherwould emit 646 billion tons of
CO2 and that alone would blowpast our climate goals.
Now, as I've researched this,I've learned that assumes that
we extract all of the oil andgas in the ground at every
single one of these sites, whichwill Not happen.
It's just not economicallyviable to do that.
(13:59):
But it's a big deal.
And what I did to try to get myhead around it and make it less
overwhelming for people is wedecided to start just.
Going down the list one by one,and now every third deep dive of
ours is an episode on a specificcarbon bomb, and by hyper
localizing it like that, we'vefound that each of these sites
(14:22):
has a a variety of issues but avariety of solutions that are
unique to that region and avariety of stories that are
unique to that region And so Ithink each time we go down that
list I find more and more hopewithin each of these stories
about how we can move forwardand I think that goes to the
bigger picture.
We try to break down theseissues one by one and In doing
(14:44):
that, we find all thesesolutions.
We find all this progress, allthis tangible reason to be
optimistic.
And so that's why, even thoughwe do run into some sad stories,
I ultimately come out the otherside feeling hopeful and
optimistic.
Elizabeth (14:58):
Good.
That's reassuring as someone whospends their day in and day out
on this.
I appreciate that.
advice do you give to people forliving their lives?
Because I hear both sides of thestory, frankly, I know people
who try to do every little thingthey can from driving an
electric car to composting andthen I hear other people say all
that stuff is just a drop in thebucket because the real issues
(15:23):
are.
what our government is doing andwho cares about the electric
cars.
It's how many plane flightsyou're taking.
And, people are justifyingthings left and right.
And so what do you say topeople, just individuals about
how we can each contribute tothis global crisis?
Ethan (15:40):
Yeah, I think it's a tricky conversation because I
think both of those perspectiveshave merit and to me, where I
think individual action can bemost beneficial is in creating
community level change.
And so with that in mind, thefive things I like to tell
people, one are you can find lowhanging fruit.
(16:00):
So for me, for example, unlessI'm coming on a show like this,
I'm not a big fashion person.
So I will always try to wear myclothes as long as they last.
And when they have holes inthem, I turn them into pajama
shirts and I never really go outand buy the new fast fashion
trends, which have a largecarbon and water footprint
associated with them on the flipside, I.
(16:22):
really love meat, and a plantbased diet can be more
effective, but it's just notsomething that I can incorporate
into my life, bothrealistically, and also I have
food allergies that wouldprevent it.
So I think patting myself on theback for what I can do well, but
not feeling bad about the thingsI'm not as good at is really
important.
Second is to Do your research soyou mentioned electric vehicles
(16:45):
and those are a very promisingsolution, but at the same time
is a lower carbon footprint todrive your current vehicle to
the end of its life.
And then buy an electric vehicleas opposed to junking a
perfectly good gasoline poweredcar for the new trendy EV,
because it takes emissions tocreate the vehicle as well as
(17:06):
the gasoline that you burn.
Things like that.
It's important to understand thenuances of these issues and do
your research.
So you can actually have thedesired impact.
Number three is to uplift otherswho do good things.
So I know there's a lot of veganbashing in the U S I'm not a
vegan myself, but I have theutmost respect for anyone who's
able to do that.
(17:26):
I always try to encourage themin the right direction.
But there are actually studiesthat have shown that products
have their sales tank whenthey're labeled vegan.
it's...
Elizabeth (17:35):
Oh, wow.
Ethan (17:36):
I Think it's important that...
even if we can't do everythingourselves, we encourage others
who are doing good things anddon't make them feel bad for it.
Number four is to use yourvoice.
For some people, that might beactivism or protesting, but that
wasn't right for me.
I love nuance way too much towrite something on a sign.
I hate crowds and loud noises,but writing and podcasting and
(17:58):
communicating was something Iwas good at.
So that's what I decided to do.
If someone else is into socialmedia or just doing stuff in
their home or their work orwhatever, that's all well and
good.
And then lastly, and what Ithink is most important is, talk
to people you disagree with, andit doesn't have to be about
climate or politics.
It can be about books or moviesor sports.
(18:18):
But if we get better at havingthose conversations, I think it
can make a real difference.
Historically, we've seen that inthe 1970s, we had a Democratic
Congress and Republicanpresidents.
Nixon and Ford, and in those 6years, we passed the Clean Air
Act, Clean Water Act, NationalEnvironmental Policy Act,
Endangered Species Act,established the Environmental
Protection Agency, establishedthe National Oceanic and
(18:40):
Atmospheric Administration, hadthe first Earth Day, and a whole
lot more in a dividedgovernment, and that was because
people were willing to talk topeople they disagreed with and
find common ground on thatimportant issue.
So if today we can have thoseconversations better and we
don't have to be friends, but wecan at the very least listen to
each other and learn eachother's perspectives.
(19:01):
It can really make a bigdifference in an environmental
policy.
Elizabeth (19:04):
I couldn't agree more.
And in just sort of generalcivility, think that in these
last I don't know that we trulyare.
I think we're actually have muchmore in common than we do in
opposition to another, if wewould just have the
conversations, clearly, thereare some differences of
opinions, but if we would talkto one another and talk to
people that we do have somedifferences with and try to
(19:26):
understand where we disagree,why we disagree, try to
understand where that person iscoming from and try to
understand some of ourcommonalities.
We're not as far apart as wemight be, and we could come to
some more consensus.
So that's a point well taken.
Ethan (19:42):
I appreciate that.
Elizabeth (19:43):
You mentioned vegans, and I know you've done a lot of
podcast episodes on foods andbeverages, and think some people
have this notion that stoppingclimate change requires people
to change their diets, and youmentioned that, you you still
eat meat.
So can you address that Issue
Ethan (19:59):
So there is substance to the idea that a meat based diet
will have a bigger footprintthan a plant based diet, and the
reason why is just biology.
There's something called a feedconversion ratio where you
measure the amount of feed ittakes to grow a animal 1
(20:20):
kilogram.
And so it might take 1.
8 or 2 kilograms of feed to growa chicken 1 kilogram.
With cattle, it can take, Sixkilograms of feed to grow a cow
one kilogram.
So that's just a mathematical,biological fact where it takes
more resources to create meatthan it does to create.
plant based food.
(20:40):
That said, the fact that a cowcan turn grass, which has no
nutritional value, into proteinis pretty remarkable.
That a pig can turn corn intobacon.
It's a magic trick I would loveto see.
So I think that there is meritto those foods, even though it
(21:01):
does require more resources.
That said, there are otheraspects of this that can be
addressed.
So I think there's a lot of famearound the issue of cows
belching methane Methane is agreenhouse gas that is around 29
times as potent as carbondioxide over a 100 year period.
But we can actually reduce thoseemissions.
(21:21):
We had an expert on one of theleading researchers in trying to
add seaweed to cattle feed toreduce the methane reaction in
their stomachs and lead to lessmethane emissions.
So regenerative Agriculturepractices, we can rotate crops,
we can do all these differentthings.
(21:42):
So when we get so focused in onthe diets, I think it misses the
bigger picture.
There are ways we can improvethe carbon footprints of all of
these foods.
And furthermore, what is areally important conversation
is.
How climate change affects thefoods as opposed to how the
foods affect climate change.
So we have a lot of episodes ona variety of products and way
(22:04):
more often than not, we'retalking about how these foods
are responding to drought, tonew storms, to higher
temperatures, coldertemperatures.
That's an important issue aswell that I think goes under
discussed.
Elizabeth (22:17):
yeah.
I remember a couple years agoseeing that in California,
lettuce was so much moreexpensive because of the
drought.
And, you could go on and on withall the different crops that are
affected by climate change.
I also was interested, so you'rea member of gen Z.
Are you generation Z.
Is that where, yeah, you are.
So I think a lot of people thinkof Gen Z as being, very
(22:38):
activist.
You'd mentioned writing thesigns, being out protesting and
all of that.
And like you had said, you takea different approach.
You're not doing that.
you found your niche doingpodcasts?
I think it's a great example ofpeople find an issue, find
something you care about andfind the way that you feel like
you can best express yourself.
Ethan (22:57):
I never would have expected to be a podcast host.
I was the one making fun of incollege before I started it.
But I think in quarantine inparticular, it ended up being
the right medium for us.
One, because podcast audiencesskew younger, skew more
educated, skew moreintellectual.
And so we had a better chance ofreaching our desired audience
(23:21):
there.
I think that, yeah.
It would have been verydifficult to do something with
video in my parents' basementduring it gave us the ability to
add comedy in a way that wasdifferent from writing.
We could incorporate soundeffects and skits and that kind
of thing.
Whereas in written form, there'sonly so much that you can really
(23:41):
do.
So I've enjoyed the format.
I think that it has its pros andcons.
It can be easier to get peopleto read something you wrote as
opposed to a podcast, but I'mreally proud of the work that
we're doing and I'm glad thatit's resonating with people.
Elizabeth (23:56):
How did you get this collaboration with PBS?
Ethan (23:59):
So I interned with them in the summer of 2019.
And at the time they had twoinitiatives, one, Peril and
Promise, which was on climatechange.
The other, called Chasing theDream, was on poverty and
opportunity in America.
They've since added two more,one called Extreme Hate on anti
Semitism, racism, extremism, andthe other is called Preserving
(24:22):
Democracy.
that department basically.
It's a really small team.
I think it's six of them runningfour initiatives.
And so they work a lot withoutside content creators to
create content.
They'll commissiondocumentaries.
They'll work with internalpartners like PBS NewsHour,
Metro Focus Amanpour but they'llalso go outside the company.
(24:45):
And I had interned with them.
I knew that.
And then during COVID, they wereclearly having trouble getting
content.
One of their big shows concludedits run.
And so I reached out maybe eightmonths into The Sweaty Penguin.
And I was like, Hey, look, we'remaking this really cool show.
I know you guys need content.
We could really use some fundingso we can continue this.
(25:07):
And we struck up a licensingdeal and that's been going ever
since.
And it's been really great toget that recognition and that
notoriety as we've movedforward.
Elizabeth (25:16):
So the partnership is pretty much they're a sponsor
and then they help promote youor do you also do specific work
Ethan (25:24):
They license our episodes, they distribute them,
so you can find them on pbs.
org, and they pay us a licensingfee, which is a significant
portion of our funding today.
Elizabeth (25:35):
And how big is your team?
Ethan (25:37):
Our team is around 15 of us, besides myself everyone is
very part time, and it's allcollege students and recent
grads for Gen Z and by Gen Z,and it's an amazing group of
people to work with, and so coolto have a group that is
environmental majors, comedypeople, social media people,
journalists Sound editors, videoeditors it's a very special
(26:00):
group
Elizabeth (26:01):
I just think it's great that you came up with this
idea.
Then you, just made it happen.
Like those are the people that Ilike to talk to on my podcasts
are people who've have a passionand I'm sure you've had some
setbacks.
Everyone I've talked to has, hitsome walls, but they keep.
pursuing, right?
you keep pushing forward toachieve your dreams.
I really appreciate people likeyou who pursue something that
(26:22):
they love.
Ethan (26:23):
that means a lot.
Our mission is to make climatechange less overwhelming, less
politicized and more fun.
And people ask me where I seemyself in 5 or 10 years.
Whatever I can be doing inpursuit of that goal is where I
see myself.
And certainly we've had our fairshare of setbacks.
We still have a lot to figureout particularly on the
(26:44):
financial side, but seeing theway that people resonate with
our content on both sides of theaisle, I'm just too inspired to
stop.
I feel like we're doingsomething really special and
anything I can do in service ofthat, I want to do.
Elizabeth (27:00):
It's great.
I applaud you for it.
I think you have a great voicefor in a really important issue
and I love the name.
Was that just something thatcame to you one day?
Sweaty penguin?
Ethan (27:10):
It was actually my dad who thought of the name.
like I said, I was trying tostart that satire news site and
my dad had the idea and healways says, I'm free to use it
for whatever I want.
I just have to credit himanytime someone asks that
question.
Elizabeth (27:25):
Okay.
Thank you Dad.
I guess the last thing I'mcurious about this entire
process, whether it's aboutlearning about climate change
itself or about just startingthe business podcasting, What is
something or a few things thathas surprised you the most you
learned about yourself or aboutthe issues?
Ethan (27:43):
That's a good question.
About myself, I think that, likeI said, I had a little bit of
team management experience,especially running the Bunion in
college and growing that team.
I think it's very different whenwe are actually creating
something that isn't a studentclub, but outside of school.
(28:05):
I think in some ways it's verysimilar.
You still have to motivatepeople to want to be there.
It's not just, hey, we're payingyou.
So do your job.
You need to keep engaged, butthere's very different
challenges that come up withregard to running an
organization like thatparticularly for us having our
(28:26):
team.
So young.
It also leads to a lot ofturnover where people are
getting new opportunities intheir careers.
And I've always tried to,support that and work through
that.
So I give people glowingrecommendations when they're
ready to go to their next thing.
(28:46):
And we are doing hiring all thetime to try to find the next
leaders on our team.
And so we've
Elizabeth (28:53):
that takes a lot of time.
Ethan (28:55):
So we've had a lot of great people come through and
there have been times where likelast year we lost half of our
original team in about a month.
And that took a long time torecover from and figure out who
could take their place.
now we're in a place where onlythree of our team members,
myself included, have been herelonger than six months and we're
(29:16):
fine.
I'm so proud of the fact thatwe've figured out how to handle
that managerial challenge andkeep our team together.
From a.
Issues perspective, I thinksomething that surprised me in a
good way, number 1, just howmany solutions there are and how
much progress has happened.
The U.
S.
carbon emissions peaked in 2005and have come down 16 percent
(29:40):
since then and are continuingto, and we never talk about
that, but something else is, incollege, I learned about a
carbon lag.
Basically, the way carbondioxide works, we emit it into
the atmosphere.
It's there.
It's absorbing infraredradiation.
That kind of creates thisblanket that warms the planet.
Carbon dioxide stays in theatmosphere for over 100 years,
(30:01):
so there was a concern that oncehumans stop emitting carbon
dioxide, all this carbon dioxidethat we have already emitted is
still there, still absorbinginfrared radiation.
And as a result would still warmthe planet.
And then we'd be in a situationwhere we're not emitting carbon,
climate change is stillhappening, and that was going to
be a pain in the neck tocommunicate not to mention the
(30:23):
impacts that would come fromthat.
In reality, what scientists havelearned recently is that effect
is real, but at the same time,our oceans in particular, also
forests and other carbon sinks,but largely our oceans, are
sucking that carbon out of theatmosphere, and that process has
(30:43):
a cooling effect, and thewarming effect from the carbon
lag plus the cooling effect fromthe carbon absorption cancel
each other out.
And it means that once humansstop emitting carbon dioxide,
within about a few years, theclimate would stabilize where it
is.
And that to
Elizabeth (31:00):
Wow.
Ethan (31:01):
really encouraging because it means once we get to
carbon neutral it would be idealto continue and try to get
carbon negative and cool theplanet down to a more natural
level, but there's a light atthe end of the tunnel now.
This can happen in our lifetimesfor us to see climate change
stop and even reverse.
So that was really exciting tome.
And I think that gives a lotmore motivation to pursue
(31:24):
climate solutions.
Elizabeth (31:25):
but we need to keep our eye on the ball.
We can't let up on this becausewe're not there yet.
Ethan (31:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Elizabeth (31:31):
Thank you so much.
I've learned a lot and it's beengreat getting to know you and
learning more about SweatyPenguin.
Ethan (31:37):
Yeah.
Thank you again for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
Elizabeth (31:43):
I'll admit, I fall into the camp of people who feel
pretty drained by the topic ofglobal warming, so it was good
for me to talk to someone whosemission is to make climate
change less overwhelming, lesspoliticized, and more fun.
Here are my takeaways from myconversation with Ethan.
Number one, follow yourinterests and stay open to new
ideas.
(32:04):
Ethan wanted to be astoryteller.
He had no idea he'd end up usinghumor to educate people about
climate issues.
Two, don't just focus onproblems, come up with
solutions.
Turns out there are reasons tofeel optimistic, even about
climate change.
Three, Be thoughtful andintentional about how your
actions can be most impactfulregarding climate change.
(32:26):
4.
Uplift people who are doing goodthings.
Vegans and others who are makingconcerted efforts to help the
environment deserve our support,not our ridicule.
5.
Use your voice.
Protesting, writing, callingyour legislators, podcasting,
whatever best suits you, yourskill set and your personality.
And finally, number six, talk topeople you disagree with.
(32:49):
It doesn't have to be aboutclimate or politics.
It can be about books or moviesor sports.
if we get better at having thoseconversations and listening to
other people, it can make a realdifference.
I'd like to thank Ethan Brownfor talking with me and for the
good work he's doing.
You can learn more about Ethanand the Sweaty Penguin in the
show notes for this episode.
I'll also recap his five tipsfor how we each can help the
(33:12):
climate crisis.
If you like listening to peoplewho are working to make positive
changes in the world, check outepisode 32 with teacher, writer,
dad, and child advocate, MattKing.
And episode 28 with MeganWizceb, who turned her personal
heartbreak into hope for others.
I'm so grateful for your supportof this podcast.
If you're not alreadysubscribing, please do, and
(33:33):
please tell a few friends aboutit too.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr.
Thanks for being curious aboutWhat It's Like.
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