July 31, 2024 • 50 mins
In celebration of the Summer Olympics, we're reprising some past episodes featuring guests who have been there!
Justin Spring went from tumbling around his neighborhood to later winning NCAA gymnastics titles and eventually earning a place on the 2008 Olympic team. The road getting there had its share of twists and turns (pun intended), including a slew of injuries leading up to the Olympics. Justin shares behind-the-scenes stories of his journey, from the lowest moment in his gymnastics career (when he had to army-crawl to his coach's room due to excruciating pain); to the mental techniques he relied on to get his body back into shape; to what life was really like in the Olympic Village. Justin is now a college gymnastics coach (formerly for the University of Illinois men; now for the University of Alabama women). We learn about pressure, expectations, why men's gymnastics is losing popularity (and college teams) in the U.S., and why competing for "perfect 10s" makes women's gymnastics much more entertaining.
In this episode:
- Why gymnastics is such a difficult sport (05:47)
- How gymnastics suited Justin's personality (08:20)
- Thoughts about pursuing the Olympics and gold medals (09:26)
- Justin's many injuries (15:06)
- The importance of mental training in recovery (15:58)
- His journey through injuries to the Olympic Trials (19:30)
- The darkest moment of Justin's career (21:32)
- The underdog story at the 2008 Olympics (25:07)
- What the Olympic experience was like (31:06)
- The state of men’s gymnastics in the US (34:04)
- What's happening in collegiate sports (36:05)
- Thoughts on coaching (41:42)
Want to know more about Justin?
- Follow him on Instagram: springerzz
- Find him on Twitter: @justinspring
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Elizabeth PiersonGarr, the host of What It's Like
(00:03):
To.
We're in week two of our SummerOlympics series.
Because we're right in themiddle of gymnastics
competition, I figured it wouldbe a great time to revisit a
conversation I had with JustinSpring, who won a bronze medal
in gymnastics with Team USA in2008.
(00:26):
I didn't go into this like Itrained my entire life.
This is my moment.
Everything's perfect.
It's ready to go.
It's set up to just don't blowit right.
Just this is it.
It was more like I rolled off anemergency E.
R.
visit two weeks ago.
I can't even believe I'm hereright now.
Let's just send it.
Let's go, baby.
(00:47):
Okay.
I have to give some context forthat quote.
The speaker is Justin Spring,and he's talking about competing
at the Olympics.
Yes, the highest level of sportscompetition.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr, andthat's just one of the many
stories Justin shared with me onthis episode.
What it's like to win an Olympicmedal.
(01:09):
Justin won his when he was amember of the 2008 USA Men's
Gymnastics Team.
He was also a national championin college, and he's now a
college gymnastics coach.
He recently moved from coachingthe men's team at the University
of Illinois.
to assistant coaching thewomen's team at the University
of Alabama.
(01:30):
I'm just really grateful for youbeing here, Justin, and taking
time to talk with me because Ithink you have such an
interesting story and a greatcareer.
So thank you for your time.
Thanks for inviting me.
Appreciate it.
I'm really impressed.
You know, I think anyone who'sdid sports growing up or has
kids who do sports knows thecommitment and sacrifice and
(01:51):
talent that it takes to succeedin sports and for you to make it
so far on the internationallevel is just really impressive.
And so I just want to commendyou and I'm kind of in awe of
what you've achieved.
Yeah, thanks.
I appreciate the support.
It's tough out here for theOlympic movement.
I'd love to kind of go back intime to kind of meet little
(02:13):
young, just like, did you haveyour sights set on becoming a
real superstar?
Were you really competitivelittle guy and thought like, I
want to achieve, or dideverything just kind of build
step by step?
That's funny.
I joke all the time.
Like, I don't remember a monthago, let alone when I was like
eight.
I remember I for better or forworse believed in pushing
(02:33):
boundaries.
I think when you're reallyyoung, that's usually mostly for
worse, but.
I think as you get older,learning to push boundaries is a
part of innovation andadvancement, and that was
something that I grew to really,really like, and kind of started
to bring that into my sportworld.
The one vivid memory I do haveas a kid was, and until this
day, it really drives me crazy,I was called a show off in my
(02:57):
neighborhood and there was likethis one defining moment that I
had And I'd never played thisgame called knockout And then I
played and I play aggressivelike and I just I wanted to win
And I wanted to win whether itwas like the gymnastics
competition I trained a year foror if it's darts in the basement
with a random person in a bar orwhatever not like I want to win
(03:19):
and I learned pretty young thatgenerally if you're really
aggressive You And geteverything that you can in
games, you'll beat most peoplebecause they're not.
And so I remember winning thatgame and they just were like,
you're such a show off.
And they were like mad.
Because of just this little fungame in everyone's front yard, I
was just really, reallyaggressive.
(03:39):
And committed, it sounds like.
And commit, yeah, and I thinkthat that really taught me a
lesson, because I hated it.
I thought I did a good thing,because I won, but then like all
of these people that I wanted tobe friends with were like mad at
me.
And I just remember as a kidbeing like, that's a defining
moment I still remember of like,you can win, but there's a way
to do it, there's a right way towin.
(04:01):
I think there's enoughegomaniacs out there that are at
the top of the sports worldsthat they're in.
That was always kind of aguiding principle, is like, you
can win, but like, the way thatyou win and the way you portray
yourself on your journey isincredibly important.
Very good point.
And the higher you get up inyour sport, the more, the more
you become.
Yeah, to the point where thatbecame, you know, I trained my
(04:24):
whole life to make an Olympic,you know, like my teachers and
anyone that hears you're agymnast throughout your entire
childhood is like, Oh, you're agymnast.
Are you going to go to theOlympics?
And you know, your nine year oldself is like, Yes, I am like,
you know, confident.
When I really started trainingfor the Olympics, which I would
say is probably like mysophomore year in college, what
(04:45):
I would say is when I finallyreally conceptualized what that
meant and what it took andstarted to make commitments
genuinely fully towards thatgoal, like as a mature adult and
still had a lot of growing to doat that time in my life.
I had this vision of doing it,but like being the guy that was
relatable and not an a holeabout it, for lack of a better
(05:05):
way of putting it, I wanted tobe the best and do it is just,
The friendly guy next door.
I just, that was reallyimportant to me.
And I think it dates back to howbad I felt from playing
aggressive in backyard sports,to be honest with you.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So growing up, you startedgymnastics at a young age and
then did you play other sportsalso?
I did.
I played anything and everythingaround the neighborhood.
(05:27):
Organized sports was, did soccerfor a while, diving, swimming.
I think I did baseball for awhile.
But that was it.
Gymnastics kind of took theforefront of every available
spare minute I had in my lifepretty early on, I'm sure.
Anyone that does gymnasticsknows that.
Did you just realize because youwere so good at it?
I think sometimes people likewhat they're good at and they're
good at what they like.
(05:48):
It kind of meets in the middle.
Is that what happened for you?
Maybe.
But I was pretty good at diving.
I hated the cold water though.
I think at some point the familyhad so much sweat equity into
the gymnastics lessons that atsome point that has became what
it was.
But I, to be honest with you, Ilook at gymnastics now and I
don't know why.
Because it's a cumbersome,really difficult sport.
(06:11):
Like when you think about whatit takes just to compete.
I've got kids now, and you know,the first time we brought my kid
to soccer, you know, a game, itwas after he'd had two practices
that didn't even look likepractice.
And then they played a game thatweekend, and they had a blast!
It was so fun! And I was like,this is why kids stay in soccer
and other organized sports.
You know what it takes to becompetitive in gymnastics?
It usually takes about threeyears of commitment, three days
(06:34):
a week, for like two hours aday.
And then you might be ready tobe the worst person in your
first competition three yearsinto it You're just like what
all the background training isso intense just so much Yeah,
and that's the behind thescenes, you know, I don't think
you really realize Because youcan play a garbage basketball
game right off the gate.
(06:55):
You might be terrible, but youcan play it.
It's safe.
Whereas, like, the gymnasticsfoundation from strength and
technique that has to developbefore you can even think about
going to your first meet,there's years.
There's years in that.
To me, I think that now is why amajor barrier to entry for
getting kids in gymnasticscompetitively.
I think a lot of other formshave popped up to keep them in
(07:17):
gymnastics.
Playfully recreationally becauseI think everyone has been like I
did gymnastics once And thenthey asked you to be on the team
and you were like see ya Yeahout of here.
Well, I think also it kind ofweeds Itself out.
I mean for me and my kids we'resort of long limbed long legs
not you know I mean, we can't dothe Overs, whatever, pullovers.
(07:38):
There you go.
Kids are flipping over anddoing, you know, I think certain
body types are much more suitedto it.
But as little kids, yeah, everykid is loving being in their
little top gymnastics classes.
Then you get a little older andyou can see those kids who are
really suited to that sport.
Yeah.
And that was me.
I was absolutely a very talentedkid in gymnastics.
I was the jerk that learnedsomething in like one or two
(08:00):
turns when the kid next to mehad been working on that for
months.
And he was just like, dang it,Justin.
So I had an innate talent forbeing a gymnast.
And you just kept wanting to bein the gym.
It was never a pressuring fromyour parents.
No, my parents were really goodwith that.
Despite having a father who wasan astronaut, you know, like,
high achieving, the pressurewasn't there, it was always
(08:20):
about doing what you love, andyou know, they pushed academics
really hard.
I think for me it was, I found aplace for my busy body and
brain.
And what I mean by that is,there's a never ending onslaught
of problems to fix.
And even now, as an adult, Ifixate to fixing problems around
the house.
I'm a little manic in that way.
And like, gymnastics helped givemy manic personality something
(08:44):
to do.
Always.
Always.
You're never done.
The second you learn a newskill, it's like, well, connect
it with something.
Or add a twist to that skill.
Or add a flip to that skill.
You know, or add a twist and aflip to that.
Like, it just never ends.
And that's to some people like areally daunting task.
But for me, I kind of love theidea that you just continually
advance through this crazysport.
(09:06):
There are no limits.
And so like, I just talkedearlier about breaking down
barriers.
Like that was my favorite thing.
It's like, has anyone ever donethis before?
Maybe I could be the first.
Sadly, I was the second personin the world to do triple double
on floor, but first person everto compete a triple full on
vaults for the United States.
So I like, I really like to pushthe difficulty stuff, which is
probably why I got injured alot, but that's what I loved
(09:29):
about the sport.
So I don't think I would havechanged anything looking back.
So that's interesting.
You said in college is when youkind of got this idea like, Oh,
maybe the Olympics and it wasOlympics really the ultimate
goal more than any other thingon the international stage, the
ultimate achievement.
Absolutely.
A hundred percent because of thesensationalism that we put
(09:49):
around the Olympic movement.
Funny enough, the worldchampionships that happen every
other year that there's not anOlympics, the world
championships are far morecompetitive.
Oh, in fact, many of thegreatest athletes in the world
are not present at the Olympicgames because he or she just had
one bad routine at the Olympicqualifier because it's so
(10:09):
selective because of how big itis, only so many teams qualified
to the Olympic games.
Whereas the world championships.
It's everyone.
So you've got that one eventspecialist that is like just a
freak of nature on that eventand can be a world champion.
He might've not been at theOlympic games.
Wow.
The Olympic games, however, isthe gold standard for greatness.
(10:30):
There are world champions thatbarely get a news blurb about
them.
And then if you win the Olympicgold medal, there's a big buzz.
And, but not even so anymore.
I don't know, like you'll getsome media coverage, but it
doesn't really change your life.
I think that's where it getstricky with.
Olympic movement sports becauseif you're doing it to achieve
this gold medal at the roadHoping and thinking it'll change
your life.
(10:51):
You're going to be prettydisappointed.
Yeah for most of you Yeah, youhave to have some other drive
because first of all It's suchan elusive goal to even make the
team let alone win a medal letalone a gold medal And then what
is that really going to do foryou?
I mean we've heard a lot aboutmichael phelps and everybody
else that you can win it andthen there's A lot of depression
that can set in and all that.
It has to be a whole otherinternal motivation to want to
(11:14):
succeed, not just to earn amedal.
Well, at least it was a careerfor Phelps, right?
There's tons of gold medalwinners that go home.
They have their little miniparade in their small town.
They get the key to the city orthey do an appearance at the
library.
And then it's like, man, time toget on LinkedIn and find out
what you're going to do for therest of your life.
Oh, and by the way, you're 33now.
(11:34):
And you just spent literallyyour entire life training for
this thing.
And you did it.
You did it.
You beat all the odds.
You're the number one, right?
And, and then that's it.
And now what?
And now what?
It's, it can be really hard.
It can be, and there, I thinkthere's a lot of, there's a lot
of books about this or journalsand studies and like.
It really blows their minds upbecause they have this, this
thing, but put on a pedestalthinking it's going to set them
(11:55):
up for life.
And like I did it, I won a medalfor team USA and it makes for a
good story.
That's about it.
But life goes on.
Correct.
So you had a really illustriouscollege career.
I mean, you won NCAAchampionships.
What was it like competing withyour teammates?
Yeah.
Because they're your teammates,but they're also your
(12:16):
competitors.
That's more so with the Olympicmovement.
And honestly, that's why I lovecollege so much.
There might be some inter teamkind of like competitiveness,
but like that was the one beautyabout collegiate athletics is
it's truly the only space thatreally exists where gymnastics
exists as a team sport.
You're in the gym with your 15to 20 other guys or women
(12:37):
training for a common goal.
And it's about putting up thebest lineup spots and all the
events to have the biggest teamscore.
Yeah.
So you're competing for maybelineup spots a little bit, but
the more that you compete forthose lineup spots, the better
your team is.
For me, it was my favorite formto compete in, to include the
Olympics.
Competing at the Olympics was anightmare, the pressure and the
(12:57):
stage.
You're never really ready forthat epic moment.
You spent your whole, again,your whole career is built up
for this one competition.
Yeah.
A few minutes.
And there you are.
You know, it was my first time.
We were all Olympic rookies onthat team and that was heavy.
Three up, three count, NBC, thatOlympics was like largest
viewership in the history of theOlympic Games combined.
(13:17):
Oh my gosh.
And we're just like, oh, good toknow.
They let you know that ahead oftime?
Literally as we're walking outinto three up, three count team
finals.
That was a comment from one ofthe camera.
I'll never forget he said that.
I remember I turned around andlooked at one of the guys and I
was like, Well, that's goodinformation right now.
It's terrible.
But we, our team did a reallygood job at diffusing that
(13:37):
nervous energy.
But to finish your questionabout college athletics, the
beauty of college athletics isfor once you have a season.
All your meets until then hasbeen all about like getting to
the next one so that you canmaybe make the national team.
Whereas like college, it's aboutyour record, the wins and
losses, every meet kind ofmatter.
There's some strategy there.
And so I think it was fun tocompete in that team setting,
(13:59):
knowing that your one routine,even if you had a mistake, we're
still in this because this is ateam challenge.
It's a team battle.
I felt more at ease knowing thatthis was a team effort, even
though that most of my career, Ihad a lot of the team on my back
being one of the betterathletes.
I still just felt morecomfortable.
It's kind of diffusing thatresponsibility, like team effort
(14:20):
here, people.
I know I'm just, yeah, you know,and I, and ironically, some
people that is way harder forthem.
It crushes their mental game,knowing that I'm fine if I screw
up because it just affects me.
But if I screw up and now ithurts the team, that extra
weight really.
So it's funny, the samesituation just flipped the other
way and it's really hard forothers.
Whereas I really thrived andlove that competitive
(14:42):
environment.
Did you have some of that mentaltraining in college?
Did that start at a younger ageof someone helping you with a
psychological training, sportspsychology?
Yeah, sports psychology.
And everyone's got, there's somany plans and methods out
there, but a lot of them arerooted in the same concepts.
And a lot of it is you get outof it, what you put into it.
(15:04):
I always prided myself on beinga good competitor, but at the
same time, I was someone who, ifthis is going to give me a
competitive edge, why wouldn't Itry this?
Not the same approach withsteroids or something like that,
but like, yeah, rightMethodologies, right?
Let me uh huh.
So I was like, yeah, let's dothis And where I really found it
to be most helpful was throughall of my surgeries.
(15:24):
So I had nine orthopedicsurgeries Oh, wow, and they all
happened in the final five yearsof my training.
So that was like almost everyyear From 05 leading up to the
Olympic Games, I had a surgeryor two.
Can you name some of them?
Was it like shoulder and knee orwhat was your major?
A little bit of everything,Elizabeth, actually.
You're a gymnast, so everythingis affected.
(15:44):
So I tore my ACL almost exactlyone calendar year out from the
Olympic Games doing the vaultthat was kind of not ever been
really done.
So shoulder surgery, a labrumtear, three ankle surgeries on
each ankle.
So that was six of them, two ofwhich were after the Olympics.
I competed at the Olympic gameswith a torn deltoid ligament on
my ankle.
And that's a whole nother story.
(16:05):
So that, that was not fun.
I didn't know you competedinjured.
Wow.
So it was just constantly comingback and finally getting back to
where you were or even better.
And then, BAM! Oh, under theknife again and let's start
over.
So that was really the bigmoment where I think mental
training became an absolutenecessity for me.
I used it for sports performanceand enhancement, but it really
(16:26):
drug me out of a pretty darkplace.
Actually with the ACL tear, myinstant reaction when I tore my
ACL was just like, Anotherinjury, can't wait to come back
and be the comeback kid.
But then I think where it reallystarts to hit you is as you
start that super slow rehabprocess.
Because the first part of doingan ACL recovery is like you're
inchworming your knee, right?
So, you know, you're like, allright, the Olympic trials is in
(16:48):
like 10 months and here I amdoing this.
Yeah, like you're just inchingyour knee.
You're watching the clock too.
100%.
And I just come off my labrumsurgery, which is a really long
recovery for me and then twoankle surgeries.
So it was like it just came backfrom those.
Back in shape.
07 was going to be the year I'mgoing to be like, tune up, get
(17:09):
ready for the Olympics and showthat I'm like going to be the
guy for this Olympic team.
And then bam, tear my ACL.
So that was a really rough spot.
And that's where I turned tokind of getting a mental
training of.
Honestly being psyched up for myrehab.
So I had like a mental trainingprogram that I used to start my
rehab for my knee.
You know, going through themotions versus attacking your
(17:30):
recovery plan makes a bigdifference on how fast you're
able to come back.
And so actually that workedtremendously well.
I was able to kind of see myselfat the Olympics and see where I
wanted to be and tie that intohow this is the first step of
like 30 of my recovery process.
And I would get psyched.
I would just get super amped todo my rehab.
Yeah.
And like, kind of felt like Iwas on this mission, like on my
(17:50):
own little Rocky trainingmontage that you've seen in
every fighting movie in thehistory of fighting movies, I
kind of became the hero of myown story and this is me like
starting my comeback, but themental training put me in that
space to be really excited aboutthat rather than being like, I'm
here again to do these stupidlittle.
Motions that this person'smaking me go through, you know,
(18:12):
you just, it's hard and why?
Yeah, anytime you would get intothe bad attitude.
You would just flip your brainand say no I'm the hero of my
own story and yes, well itstarted with there was a
program.
I had like a eight minute Idon't want to say meditation
because it wasn't meditation.
It was like you walk throughyour steps.
A thought process.
Mm hmm.
(18:33):
Yeah I mean, that's a reallygreat thing, especially for
something like that, but almostfor any part of our lives you
know any day that you're sort ofletting your mind go down some
path seeing the negative in lifeand you can kind of switch and
see the positive stuff instead.
Yours was incredibly dramaticand had major consequences at
the end but we could Do that anytime of life.
(18:54):
Sometimes you need a pickup foranything in the day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember walking in feeling ontop of the world, ready to like,
just dominate my rehabilitationworkouts.
And that was really importantbecause it's so easy to get lost
there.
So it was very helpful.
And so we have a plan to try tobuild that for daily training
(19:14):
because the monotony of trainingcan be tough and you're always
dealing with minor aches andpains and setbacks.
And so kind of maintaining that.
Focus and that level ofintensity in your workouts is
really important to becomingyour best.
You can't just rely on coach topick you up every day.
We want to be the positivecoaches in people's lives, but
at the same time, a self drivenathlete that's on a mission and
(19:37):
hungry for what they want, like,that's unstoppable.
They're going to have a goodyear.
So what happened?
You went through that recoveryprocess, then how many months
did you have to get physicallyback in shape before the Olympic
trials?
So funny enough, I got backreally early.
I got back doing the all aroundalmost in like seven months and
went out to the Olympic TrainingCenter to do my first all around
(20:00):
competition in tune up.
First event, I'm finishing myfloor routine and I land short
on a double flipping pass, afull twisting double back.
And I land kind of like my legsturned out like a duck.
At the time, I had no idea thatI just sprained my ankle.
But I actually tore my deltoidligament on the inside of my
ankle.
Oh my gosh.
And the timeline, again, withthe Olympic trials right around
(20:20):
the corner, we didn't get anMRI.
We just assumed it was a sprain.
They shipped me down to Texas,USA Gymnastics, to get this,
like, MRT treatment toaggressively get the swelling
out.
And it really helped.
And I got right back to work.
But floor and vault reallydidn't come back.
I was not able to do floor.
(20:40):
I just couldn't.
It hurt so bad.
I tore my right ACL and then myleft ankle still really is
messed up.
Something's so wrong.
And I'm just like the Olympicsagain, that timeline is just
building, it's building, and somy coach comes up with the idea
and this is like two weeks out.
I basically get selected slashushered through to the Olympic
trials after doing only fourevents at USA championships,
(21:03):
which was considered half of theOlympic trial process.
And that's just because you hadproven yourself.
Didn't do floor, which was oneof my best events.
But they knew that you were sucha strong.
I proved myself on other events.
Okay.
Yeah.
So as a change of pace, my coachsays, Hey, let's go out to the
Olympic training center.
Get with the national team,change of environment, because
we're just getting superfrustrated and we'll just kind
(21:24):
of make a final push out therebefore we head out to the
Olympic trials.
I was like, that's a great idea.
I love that place, even thoughthat's where it hurt my ankle.
This was it.
This is the moment.
And so I go out there and I'mdoing a crazy amount of tumbling
on a mangled left ankle and akind of coming back on my right
knee.
Pre existing condition, I have,so I have two herniated discs in
my back.
And so when you're favoring aleft ankle and a right knee, The
(21:46):
back.
Your back starts to really, itwas not good.
And so, darkest moment of myentire career, I wake up after a
hard push on Floor Vault, andthe dorms at that point were
like a barracks.
At night, I'm trying to go, youknow, bathroom.
I fall out of bed, and I'm like,Huh.
My legs are asleep.
Like, this is odd.
I pull myself back up and, uh, Iget out of bed again.
(22:08):
I'm like, trying to shake themawake and fall out of bed again.
And that's when I, like, have,like, my ultimate darkest moment
of my career.
I realize my legs motor functionaren't working.
Ah! Panic.
I commando crawled down the hallto my coach and was like, We got
a problem here.
Something's very wrong.
Yeah.
And so that was two weeks beforethe Olympic trials.
(22:29):
What was it?
Were your discs just pressing ona nerve or something?
Correct.
I had done so much landing inthe wrong position favoring my
two lower extremities that Ibasically really pushed those
discs bad into like the motor.
It's never happened since.
Funny enough, I'm going to get acortisone injection tomorrow for
my back because it's still, outof all the surgeries, it's the
(22:49):
one thing that bothers me everyday still.
Oh my gosh, that must have beenso scary.
And that was so close to theOlympics.
I mean, I cannot believe youcompeted and competed so
brilliantly then.
That is incredible.
That's the weird, that's the endof the story, yeah.
They threw me on a ton of musclerelaxers to get everything to
calm down.
I basically did nothing theseven or eight days, that first
(23:12):
part of those two weeks.
And then shipped out to thetrials.
And started feeling better.
And I ran into one of theselection committee members and
saying, Hey, I don't know if youheard my story.
Not really prepared to do afloor routine and he was like
you just don't really fit theteam without your floor That's
one of your best events And Iwas in an elevator and I changed
(23:32):
the floor into my coach's roomafter that one comment I said,
hey, we're doing floor tomorrow.
We have to try a routine I didit with a water down dismount,
but it was good enough I think Iplaced second that day one.
And so it was actually a badfinish.
And people in the audience, theywere like, that was like a rough
ending.
But to me, that was like thegreatest moment of my gymnastics
career was finishing that floorroutine day one at Olympic
(23:53):
trials.
Because you did it.
And no one understood thatexcept for me and my coach.
Most people were probably like,Oh, that was a terrible
dismount.
And I'm like, I made it, I madeit.
All that backstory.
You know what you've beenthrough.
I would do that.
So that was a wild ride.
Yeah.
Wow.
And then how long between thetrials and going off to the
Olympics?
(24:13):
A long time, actually, back in08.
It was like six weeks.
It was a long time.
There was a huge window thatyear.
So you could recover.
And they did that, so I thinkthat you could manage your
training cycle to kind ofrecover, come down off your
training cycle, and then try topeak again for the Olympics,
which for me was fantastic atthat time because we were still
trying to figure out what theheck was going on with my ankle.
(24:34):
So then you got to kind of rehaba little bit then in that period
of time and by the time you wentOff to the Olympics.
Lots of tape.
Lots of tape.
So I never got fixed.
I had to have two surgeriesafter the Olympics to actually
repair my ankle.
And at the Olympics, we justtaped it up like a lot.
That's a lot of naproxen,sodium, or Aleve, or whatever
(24:54):
you want to call it, and heavy,heavy, heavy tape jobs.
And they put me in on floor inthree up, three count.
Like I did floor for our teamfinal.
That was a moment.
I was like, guys, I'm normallythe guy that's like, I can
handle everything.
But I've done like, A handful offloor routines and my ankles and
they were just like you got itbig guy And I was like, oh my
god, I guess I I guess I do Sois that another mental game that
(25:16):
you played with yourself?
Like I got this my ankle is nothurting My back is fine How do
you prepare yourself for thosemoments?
So I think our team was reallyunique in the way that we
approached our Olympic games.
So our team originally had Pauland Morgan Hamm on the team, who
had both been to two Olympicsbefore then.
(25:36):
And Paul, at that time, was thereigning Olympic all around gold
medalist from 2004.
So having him on your team, Youwanted those guys in your team
because of their experience, andthey've just proven themselves.
They're both world and Olympicmedalists.
This is awesome.
And so, through injury, both ofthem ended up withdrawing from
the team.
Morgan, actually, he didn'twithdraw from the team, he was
(25:59):
told he needed to showcompetitive readiness.
In the last training sessionbefore team prelims While in
beijing and couldn't so like incomes our second alternate
heartbreaking.
Yeah, so that was crazy and soit kind of became a story of
Like I dare something else to gowrong with this Because we all
kind of had our own likecomeback story journeys and the
(26:20):
team itself had this resiliencepiece of losing paul Like all
right first alternate then weleave for beijing Lose Morgan
right before I compete.
In comes Sasha.
Like, Sasha Artemov literallymoved into the Olympic Village.
The day before we competed, teamprelims.
Wow.
He was in the auxiliary sitecause they're not allowed in the
Olympic village until they'reofficially on the team.
So he just moved in and we werejust like, Hey man, haven't seen
(26:42):
you in like two weeks, you readyto compete at the Olympics
tomorrow?
Wild.
Just what a mind trip.
So he was in China.
Correct.
At least they weren't justflying him in.
No, that would have been evencrazier, but you have to
anticipate injuries withgymnastics.
So he was there training withour two other alternates and
Sasha got the pick.
So our team motto just kind ofbecame like.
(27:03):
Bring it on! Like, this iscrazy, you know, and, and, and
started to really embrace the upand down journey that the team
was going on and that we weregoing on ourselves and kind of
mocked the pressure of the meet.
Anything we could do to diffusehow intense that moment is.
I mean, it's, it's a big moment.
I think everyone copes and dealswith it in a different way and
we were kind of a goofy teamthat liked to, you know, Make
fun of ourselves and make fun ofthe intensity and pressure that
(27:26):
felt like it was boiling overfor us.
And I think it worked.
We competed really well.
I had a great meet and um, wonan unsuspecting bronze medal.
So that was really cool.
First medal, I think won byOlympic rookies.
It was incredible.
You were not expected to get onthe podium.
Well, when you lose Paul, thereigning Olympic gollar on
champ.
And then you lose the only otherOlympic experience on the team,
(27:48):
Morgan, who's a world medalistand, you know, and had been the
face of USA Gymnastics forliterally eight years.
The media was like, this teamwill be lucky to make finals,
let alone win a medal, likewinning a medal, there's no
chance.
And funny enough, I think thatall of that made it all a little
bit easier to compete because Ithink the hardest thing to do,
and I think we saw this a littlebit with Simone Biles.
(28:09):
is compete with unbelievableexpectation to be the best.
That pressure.
Yeah, and so our team, ifnothing else, didn't have any of
that pressure.
No one expected us to doanything remarkable or credible,
right?
You can barely make team finals.
Like we don't even want to coverthem.
I still remember NBC being like,you guys are doing so good.
(28:29):
We're actually going to startcovering like in the meat
because like they just, everyonewould like countered us out.
So we like, we had something toprove to ourselves, but felt
like no one else really cared.
And I think that helped.
There was just no expectation onour performance.
Expectation's a pretty heavything.
Yeah.
Where are you set the bar?
You still want to set it highfor you guys.
I mean, literally the bar.
(28:49):
I guess that's gymnastics talk.
The metaphor.
Very high bar.
The literal bar.
The literal high bar.
Yeah.
You performed great there.
I mean, I guess you just workedthrough all your injuries and
you did so well.
Do you remember how it felt tofinish your various routines and
to like stick a landing and canyou bottle that feeling?
(29:11):
Blank.
I had one of the better means ofmy career at the Olympic trials
and honestly at the Olympics.
But again, I think it came downto, I didn't go into this like,
I trained my entire life.
This is my moment.
Everything's perfect.
It's ready to go.
It's set up, dude.
Just don't blow it.
Just, this is it.
It was more like I rolled off anemergency ER visit two weeks
(29:31):
ago.
I can't even believe I'm hereright now.
Like, let's just see what, like,let's just send it.
Let's go, baby.
That's a very different attitudeto have.
At the Olympic trials.
Cause again, like so many peopleput their entire lives to
converge in this competition tomake this Olympic team and
whether it's expectation fromtheir families and coaches and
their communities or onthemselves, I was just like,
(29:52):
man, I'm just happy I'm not onbedrest like I was 10 days ago.
So like, I felt like, again,like I had nothing to lose and
probably had back to back to thebest meets.
I've had my entire life at theOlympic trials because of that.
It's a weird like blessing indisguise, you know, you don't
want to get injured, but in away it, it did kind of reset
things for you.
(30:12):
Yeah, it's funny.
You see that happen in athletesnow and as a coach for the last
15 years You see a lot ofathletes do that every time you
get to post season Everyone allof a sudden has just like this
thing that's kind of botheringthem Like hey coach just want to
let you know like shoulders beenreally acting up today Really?
Like you've never had a shoulderissue in your entire life, you
know, like it's like yes, butbut like i'm good I just I just
(30:35):
kind of like i'll work throughlike we're good And it's almost
just kind of that like get outof jail like just in case I mess
up You There's a reason.
It's the bottom shoulder.
Yeah, and like, I get that.
It's their way of trying to,like, diffuse that, like, I know
I'm expected to hit and beperfect, and I've got one chance
and one chance only to do it forus and the team.
That's a lot of pressure.
(30:55):
But like, man, if I mess up andthen it's not my fault because I
was hurting.
That would be better than if Ijust messed up because I messed
up and so you see that a lot AndI get it because it's intense
you get one chance one chanceonly to this incredibly
difficult thing and it'ssupposed to be perfect You know,
like man that's brutal.
Yeah, and you're literallygetting judged I mean, they're
(31:18):
literally judges giving younumbers about how perfect or how
imperfect you are being from theperfect mark Correct, and you
live that day in day outbasically from your coach like
telling you where yourdeductions are You have to be
very mindful of that becausecoaching can become very
negative in a judge sport likethat, where your job is to
(31:38):
highlight the areas we need tofix.
And to do that, you need to knowwhat the deductions are.
And so it kind of lends itselfto always identifying your
faults, failures, and problemareas.
That is not a positiveenvironment to exist in.
And so you need to find ways tobe a better, more positive coach
and to still work on all thethings that need to be worked
on.
(31:58):
So it's a challenge.
Olympic sports are tough.
Gymnastics specifically is verychallenging in that way.
I wanted to ask a little bitabout the Olympic experience
when you were there.
I assume before your events, wasit kind of intense just living
in the Olympic Village and allthat?
And then afterwards, was it sortof fun?
I think you'd get a verydifferent answer if you ask a
(32:19):
men's gymnast versus a women'sgymnast, first of all, at least
certainly back then.
For us, peaking as a malegymnast in your early, mid to
late 20s, we're all kind ofgrown adults, and so there's a
little bit more freedom andownership given into our
training process, at least Frommy observations at that time.
And so when we got there, it wasa blast, honestly.
(32:42):
We had our training and thenrather than sitting in the gym
or the Olympic village and goingstir crazy, we went out, we were
at the silk market.
We all went bartered for custommade suits and shirts.
And like, we were enjoyingourselves because the last thing
you want to do is just sit andstare at a blank wall and be
like, okay, 14 hours and 13minutes until I have to perform
at the Olympic game, you know,like that, that's not great.
(33:05):
Yeah, so we did a lot of thingstogether.
And actually our, our team isstill incredibly close.
We have a group thread.
We chat often from birthdaywishes to life moments.
And we go to each other'sweddings.
We're actually very, very closeteam still.
And so it was amazing.
You know, we buckled down andgot real serious with a couple
of days before making sureyou're, you're covering your
rest and recovery things.
(33:25):
But it was amazing.
China and from what I've heard.
Of others that have been to manyother Olympics, like the Beijing
China Olympics was one of thegreatest Olympics ever put on in
the modern day Olympic movement.
My family was in town and mygirlfriend, who's now my wife,
so like I spent a lot of timewith them and the team exploring
the city and just kind ofcelebrating an unexpected medal
(33:46):
win, but it was great.
We just kind of bond again.
There's this overlying.
Pressure that just everyonecarries when they're at the
Olympics in the focus, and thenas the vents started to close,
you would feel the energy swing.
Like 10 days into being there,you could tell athletes were
starting to finish, and it wasstarting to become, you know,
(34:08):
The celebration and party scenethat you've probably read and
heard about.
And we absolutely took part inthat.
We, we won a medal, you know,and you had dedicated your
entire life.
And so, yeah, we were allgrownups and adults and we went
out and celebrated.
So it was, it was a lot of fun.
So that fact of getting thirdplace as opposed to fourth place
(34:28):
really makes a big difference,doesn't it?
It seems like as viewers, that'swhat we're getting, you know,
you got on the podium.
That's incredible.
But I just sometimes think aboutfor the athletes, like, it's
just so great to be there.
It's so impressive to if you getfourth, if you get tenth, I
think it's all pretty great, butI wonder if you got that many
more accolades, you know, is itthat much more satisfying that
(34:51):
you actually have?
Yeah, but you know the countrywe live in, the United States.
Yeah, I sure do.
You know, the first question is,you were in the Olympics?
Did you win a gold medal?
I actually can't even tell youhow many times I've been
introduced.
And speaking engagements 2008Olympic gold medalist Justin
spring and I'll walk out on thestage and the first thing I have
to do which is Not what you wantto do when you're starting a
(35:13):
speaking is tear down your ownintroduction.
You're like Well as much as Iwant to let that go.
I am not a gold medalist It is abronze medal if you hold it in
the light just right.
It looks gold, but yeah Only gotthird place like sorry, but
anyway onto my speaking only soyeah And I'm totally fine with
(35:33):
that, right?
Again, I think because I wasjust happy to be.
And so like getting third wasicing on the cake, but then some
for us, especially with ourteam's journey of losing Paul
and Morgan.
And there's only been threemeddling teams in men's Olympic
U.
S.
history.
Wow.
You have the gold medal teamfrom 84.
Yeah.
You have the silver team from 04and then you have the bronze
(35:54):
team from 08.
That's it.
We're not like the women who'vewon like every year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I'm curious about that.
I'd kind of like to go a littlebit into your coaching career
too, because I know that youstarted coaching men's
gymnastics, and now you'recoaching women's college
gymnastics.
Big change.
Just happened.
I'm curious about kind of thestate of men's gymnastics in the
(36:14):
U.
S., or maybe it's worldwide, andis women's gymnastics just so
much more popular?
And men's or can you speak alittle bit to that?
Can speak a lot to that.
Yeah.
worldwide.
I think it's fairly unchanged.
I think what's happening in theUnited States is you're seeing
the NCAA model have a completeparadigm shift.
(36:36):
College athletics, 40, 50 yearsago.
They were all intramural sports.
Money wasn't tied into thiswhole thing.
And now that's like a laughablestatement.
Because college athletics isbig, big, big business.
And unlike in professionalsports, when you have recruiting
tethered to be coming andstaying the best, which you have
to do if you want to pack yourstands, and remain a winning
(37:00):
championship team in the sportsthat matter.
Which is football andbasketball.
You have to invest insaneamounts of money, time, energy,
and money and money and moneyinto those sports.
And recruiting is a big piece ofthat.
Making sure you continue to getthe best players so that you
continue to win.
So you continue to be the bestand drive fan engagement, TV
(37:20):
contracts that keep this wholething afloat.
And so as that has happened,that in combination with title
nine, saying that the money thatyou spend on.
Women must be comparable andequal to what you spend on the
men.
And so as the money spent on menhas gone absolutely through the
roof on the sports that drivethe whole industry, you have to
(37:40):
spend equivalent amount ondollars and opportunities for
women's sports.
Great intent and it's doneincredible things for women
athletes from essentially beingnon existent in the 60s and 70s
to now it's a vibrant industryand that's awesome.
The opportunities are great, butthe repercussions, the
unintended consequences of TitleIX is that it has decimated
(38:02):
men's Olympic sports in college.
And men's gym is currentlyhanging on by a thread with 14
programs left for 14 nationwidein college I had no idea it was
so paltry.
That's it.
Is that are you talking d1?
Uh, no, that's all of them.
We can dial back spending onfootball or basketball Or if we
(38:25):
want to spend more there, thenwe can add a women's sport, or
we could do what we want withbasketball and football and put
them in the right position andwe can just cut a men's sport.
That's exactly what manyprograms did.
So it's not good.
And the problem with that is, isthey're all Olympic drivers.
Four out of the six guys on myOlympic team came directly from
a college program, like I did.
I trained at the University ofIllinois.
(38:47):
The reason I made the Olympicswas because of the University of
Illinois and my trainingenvironment there and my
coaching and support.
From there.
And so that's why it's, it's notgood.
So it's pretty much the entirepipeline is going to dry up.
There's no incentive, really,for boys who really love
gymnastics.
They're not going to havecollege scholarships to look
forward to, and then an Olympicsto go forward to.
(39:08):
That's the problem.
That's the real carrot at theend of the stair.
Just that chance to compete incollege is so many athletes
desire and goal and dream.
You know, the Olympics is fivespots every four years.
Like that's crazy for mostpeople, but making a college
team is not.
That's very attainable or it hasbeen.
And yeah, it's absolutelygetting almost impossible now.
(39:29):
So that's why I sayinternationally, it hasn't
changed much because we're theonly place whose Olympic.
Driver model has been completelyintertwined with NCAA collegiate
model.
So this explains what you weresaying, the difference in the
Olympics, the USA men's versusUSA women's.
I mean, no wonder we haven't hadany medalists since 08.
It's just drying up.
(39:50):
I think that's a big piece.
And as that's drying up, you'vegot other countries.
And I think there's anotherthing to the Olympic movement
that people don't realize isthat almost every Olympic
athlete is a volunteer.
Unless you are a Michael Phelpsafter 08 and you're training for
12, you don't get paid to dothis.
Like I had a full time job.
I was the assistant coach at theUniversity of Illinois and my
(40:12):
side hustle Was training to beone of the best in the world at
one of the hardest sports in theworld and make an olympic team
That is the story for almostevery olympic athlete out there
They're living in their parentsbasements.
The local car shop is givingthem a ten thousand dollar
training stipend Like the gymsare just Cutting them some
slack, not charging them totrain there because they bring
(40:33):
some prestige, but like mostpeople don't make any money with
this and they put their entirelives on hold to train, to help
win team America, a couplemedals or team of volunteers
straight up, except for theelite, elite, elite one to 2
percent that are multiple,multiple, multiple time Olympic
gold medal winners in the rightsport.
The marquee sports that got alot of notice.
(40:56):
Paul Ham was an Olympic goldmedalist.
He didn't get that same kind ofSimone Biles attention.
Or any of those girls.
I know so many names from allthe past Olympics.
The women all around, theybecome like America's
sweetheart.
Ever since Mary Lou Renton.
That's right.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, it's interesting whatgains popularity and support and
(41:17):
can be, uh, pushed into a careerand what can't.
I mean, I guess in some ways, Iguess I, I leveraged my Olympic
journey into a career.
I had two years of assistantcoaching experience under my
belt and they gave me the headcoaching position at the
University of Illinois.
Coaching seems like an awesomeplace to land.
Has that been super fulfillingfor you?
It is.
And specifically collegecoaching.
(41:37):
Yes.
To be honest with you, thatmight be the most life changing
thing that ever happened to mebecause I made the Olympics.
I said my whole life I wanted tobe a teacher and then found out
that coaching is essentiallyteaching with a better salary
and uses my technical niche.
Don't get me started on that.
We should triple our teachersalaries.
I'm sure you had a lot ofinfluential coaches through your
(41:58):
years and did some of them.
And good and bad ways.
Oh yeah.
And I think you learn anddevelop your coaching style like
that.
You know, one of the firstthings I learned was I think I'm
just very self aware and good atpicking up other people's energy
or contentment.
And like, I think that's a bigpart of knowing when and how to
push someone is such a hugepiece of being a good coach.
(42:19):
Great athletes need to be pushedin the right ways to become
their best.
But you can break someone bypushing someone at the wrong
time or too aggressively.
And I think that's where you getinto coaching is abusive.
And you know, so like knowinghow to make someone their best.
And knowing how to push someonethe right way, I think is so
much of what coaching entailsand very little of that has
(42:39):
anything to do with thetechnical law of the sport.
It's about being able to readpeople and understand what they
want and listening to them andthen using what they tell you
about what they want in thisprocess and getting to know them
and then knowing how to get themto become their best.
So that was the first lesson Ilearned was like using myself as
an example.
And one of my guys was like,yeah, I know that you can do
(43:00):
that really easy, but thatdoesn't really help me.
And instead of being like, well,I was just, you know, showing
you as a visual example, it waslike, that was a profound
statement right there.
Like, yeah, that was worthlessfor you.
And probably just made him feelterrible that his old retired
coach can get up and do thatprobably made him feel this big.
Like he doesn't need that.
And so boom, lesson number one,early coach, like don't ever use
myself as an example because hisjourney, his experience, his
(43:23):
struggle is not mine.
And probably doesn't see it as,even if it felt identical, he
probably doesn't feel like it'sidentical.
He or she, I should say.
They're all going through theirown experiences, and so you need
to meet them where they're at,which is kind of a big thing
that we say a lot now.
Are there differences nowcoaching men and coaching women?
Nope.
(43:43):
It's identical.
I'm just kidding.
Of course there's unbelievabledifferences, but not as
profound.
I was very, very nervous inmaking this shift.
I was tremendously nervous.
Every time I'd ever walked intoa gym as a coach, I'd known
every athlete very, very, verywell because I came from the
team that I started coaching inand worked up through the ranks.
So like that alone of justmaking the shift of walking into
(44:07):
a gym of 18 complete strangersthat I've never met before kind
of freaked me out.
And now I'm supposed to be theircoach, but it was also 18 women.
And I have never coached a womanathlete in my entire life.
And really, honestly, a littlebit of how it process emotion, I
think has been a littledifferent men generally.
And I don't want to stereotype ahundred percent, but like men
(44:28):
generally get their frustrationout by.
banging their head againstsomething or hitting something
or an inappropriate exclamatoryremark at the top of their
lungs.
Whereas I found women kind ofget it out sometimes through
just kind of overwhelming, alittle bit of tears, but, but
then everyone re engages thesame way.
This team that I'm working withnow is unbelievably resilient,
(44:50):
incredibly hardworking, verycoachable.
I've only been here for twomonths and I feel like I'm, I'm
actually exactly where maybe I'msupposed to be all of my life.
I'm trying to figure out why.
I leave practices feeling morefulfilled.
And I don't know that it's thesport, the gender, this team
versus my team.
I'm still, I don't think I haveenough experience, but I am
(45:13):
leaving feeling more like I'mmaking a bigger difference.
And I don't know why.
A little bit might be men's towomen's gymnastics.
It's a completely different codeof points.
Whereas there's a 10 0 cap inwomen's gymnastics, men's
gymnastics in college is theOlympic code of points, which is
open ended.
There's an endless amount ofdifficulty you can continue to
(45:35):
add to your routine, which initself, if you think about it,
is unrelenting and completelyexhausting.
At no point in any of myathletes careers ever are we
content, happy, and feelingsuccessful.
Like we have a routine that isthe final routine and we can
celebrate that.
It's like a second you learnsomething new for a male
gymnast.
It's like, okay, can we upgradethat?
(45:57):
Can we add a twist?
Can we add a flip?
Can we make it harder?
Wow, right.
It's like saying, I just wantyou to live up to your
potential.
And you're like, well, what's mypotential?
It's infinite, I guess.
It never ends.
Keep going.
That is exhausting as a coach toknow that at every moment in
your coaching career, every oneof your athletes still has an
endless amount to improve, getbetter, and get better, and
(46:18):
improve on, and get better, andimprove on, and get better every
day, day in, day out.
There's never like a, a winmoment almost.
There's no end.
We had an athlete learn a newvault that is the 10 0 start
value.
Like, I literally, I got tearyeyed.
I was so excited and that's allwe need.
And now we perfect it and wemake it better, but like, we got
this big thing and it was such acelebration moment.
(46:40):
Those wins are so hard to findin men's gymnastics because of
how unrelenting it is.
This pursuit of the higher startvalue, always.
I think that's a really profoundobservation.
And mentally, it's like adifferent game for men and
women.
It's a totally different game.
I think it's the reason thatpopularity is surging in women's
gymnastics.
(47:00):
These win moments happen all thetime with 10 0 and hit routines.
Whereas you see falling all overthe place in collegiate men's
gymnastics because you got goodgymnasts trying Olympic level
gymnastics to try to be thebest.
But it's also like, you got a 14Everyone in the stands is like,
is that good?
Yeah, and if you're a diehardfan, you're like, that was
(47:23):
great.
But like, if you're trying tobuild new fan viewership, then
they don't know.
And that's the thing.
It was amazing.
I was impressed with whathappened down there.
And then after two and a halfhours of a meet, there's one win
moment in the men's gymnasticsmeet, where I think women have
done a really good job.
There's a lot of winning momentsthroughout their competitions
that you sensationalize and makebig, and that's exciting.
(47:44):
And They're killing it.
TV coverage is through the roofand fans are packing in the
doors.
And it's great.
They figured out a model that'squick, heavy hitting, fast
paced, light hearted.
And it's a show that plays towhat people want to see at a
sporting event.
This has been so fun andinteresting.
I've learned so much from you.
(48:05):
I didn't know all this aboutmen's and women's gymnastics,
and I love the behind the scenesabout the Olympics.
I'm a huge Olympics fan, havewatched every Olympics my whole
life, so thank you for sharingall of that.
Thanks for being a fan, thatsomehow that supported my
ability to do what I did, sothank you.
Thanks a lot, Justin.
I appreciate your time and justbeing so open with me.
(48:26):
Thank you.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
Thanks for having me on.
Appreciate it.
It's pretty easy to see whyJustin is such a successful
coach, isn't it?
He's full of motivation,encouragement, and obviously
experience.
Here are some of my takeawaysfrom our conversation.
Number one, be intentional aboutyour goals and why you're
(48:48):
pursuing them.
Two, embrace the journey you'reon, even when it's up and down
at times.
Three.
Facing something daunting?
Become the hero of your ownstory.
Visualize each step of the way,including the ending.
Picture yourself victorious.
Four.
(49:09):
A key to being a great coach ora great friend is listening to
people and trying to understandwhat they want and need.
Five.
Expectations can be punishing.
Imagine what could happen if youfreed yourself and others from
them.
Six.
Something that seems mediocre toothers may be the most
(49:30):
impressive thing in your life.
Other people's opinions don'tmatter.
Only you know your whole story.
And finally, number seven.
Take the wins when and where youfind them.
Celebrate them.
And by the way, you do not haveto get or be a perfect ten to be
a winner.
(49:51):
My big thanks to Justin forgiving me this insider's look
into the Olympic experience.
And for teaching me so muchabout collegiate gymnastics.
Thanks.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Justin, go to the show
notes for this episode on ourwebsite, whatitsliketo.
net.
You can also find all of ourpast episodes there.
If you're like me and you lovethe Olympics, you might want to
(50:14):
listen to episode 12 with JeffCable.
He's photographed the Olympicssince 2010.
And if you like hearing fromstar athletes, check out episode
38 with former NFL quarterbackJake Locker.
If you're enjoying this podcast,please tell a few friends about
it.
And if you want to support us,scroll down to the bottom of the
(50:35):
show notes page and click on thelink that says support the show.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr.
Thanks for being curious aboutwhat it's like.
Hi, this is Elizabeth PiersonGarr, the host of What It's Like
(00:03):
To.
We're in week two of our SummerOlympics series.
Because we're right in themiddle of gymnastics
competition, I figured it wouldbe a great time to revisit a
conversation I had with JustinSpring, who won a bronze medal
in gymnastics with Team USA in2008.
(00:26):
I didn't go into this like Itrained my entire life.
This is my moment.
Everything's perfect.
It's ready to go.
It's set up to just don't blowit right.
Just this is it.
It was more like I rolled off anemergency E.
R.
visit two weeks ago.
I can't even believe I'm hereright now.
Let's just send it.
Let's go, baby.
(00:47):
Okay.
I have to give some context forthat quote.
The speaker is Justin Spring,and he's talking about competing
at the Olympics.
Yes, the highest level of sportscompetition.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr, andthat's just one of the many
stories Justin shared with me onthis episode.
What it's like to win an Olympicmedal.
(01:09):
Justin won his when he was amember of the 2008 USA Men's
Gymnastics Team.
He was also a national championin college, and he's now a
college gymnastics coach.
He recently moved from coachingthe men's team at the University
of Illinois.
to assistant coaching thewomen's team at the University
of Alabama.
(01:30):
I'm just really grateful for youbeing here, Justin, and taking
time to talk with me because Ithink you have such an
interesting story and a greatcareer.
So thank you for your time.
Thanks for inviting me.
Appreciate it.
I'm really impressed.
You know, I think anyone who'sdid sports growing up or has
kids who do sports knows thecommitment and sacrifice and
(01:51):
talent that it takes to succeedin sports and for you to make it
so far on the internationallevel is just really impressive.
And so I just want to commendyou and I'm kind of in awe of
what you've achieved.
Yeah, thanks.
I appreciate the support.
It's tough out here for theOlympic movement.
I'd love to kind of go back intime to kind of meet little
(02:13):
young, just like, did you haveyour sights set on becoming a
real superstar?
Were you really competitivelittle guy and thought like, I
want to achieve, or dideverything just kind of build
step by step?
That's funny.
I joke all the time.
Like, I don't remember a monthago, let alone when I was like
eight.
I remember I for better or forworse believed in pushing
(02:33):
boundaries.
I think when you're reallyyoung, that's usually mostly for
worse, but.
I think as you get older,learning to push boundaries is a
part of innovation andadvancement, and that was
something that I grew to really,really like, and kind of started
to bring that into my sportworld.
The one vivid memory I do haveas a kid was, and until this
day, it really drives me crazy,I was called a show off in my
(02:57):
neighborhood and there was likethis one defining moment that I
had And I'd never played thisgame called knockout And then I
played and I play aggressivelike and I just I wanted to win
And I wanted to win whether itwas like the gymnastics
competition I trained a year foror if it's darts in the basement
with a random person in a bar orwhatever not like I want to win
(03:19):
and I learned pretty young thatgenerally if you're really
aggressive You And geteverything that you can in
games, you'll beat most peoplebecause they're not.
And so I remember winning thatgame and they just were like,
you're such a show off.
And they were like mad.
Because of just this little fungame in everyone's front yard, I
was just really, reallyaggressive.
(03:39):
And committed, it sounds like.
And commit, yeah, and I thinkthat that really taught me a
lesson, because I hated it.
I thought I did a good thing,because I won, but then like all
of these people that I wanted tobe friends with were like mad at
me.
And I just remember as a kidbeing like, that's a defining
moment I still remember of like,you can win, but there's a way
to do it, there's a right way towin.
(04:01):
I think there's enoughegomaniacs out there that are at
the top of the sports worldsthat they're in.
That was always kind of aguiding principle, is like, you
can win, but like, the way thatyou win and the way you portray
yourself on your journey isincredibly important.
Very good point.
And the higher you get up inyour sport, the more, the more
you become.
Yeah, to the point where thatbecame, you know, I trained my
(04:24):
whole life to make an Olympic,you know, like my teachers and
anyone that hears you're agymnast throughout your entire
childhood is like, Oh, you're agymnast.
Are you going to go to theOlympics?
And you know, your nine year oldself is like, Yes, I am like,
you know, confident.
When I really started trainingfor the Olympics, which I would
say is probably like mysophomore year in college, what
(04:45):
I would say is when I finallyreally conceptualized what that
meant and what it took andstarted to make commitments
genuinely fully towards thatgoal, like as a mature adult and
still had a lot of growing to doat that time in my life.
I had this vision of doing it,but like being the guy that was
relatable and not an a holeabout it, for lack of a better
(05:05):
way of putting it, I wanted tobe the best and do it is just,
The friendly guy next door.
I just, that was reallyimportant to me.
And I think it dates back to howbad I felt from playing
aggressive in backyard sports,to be honest with you.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So growing up, you startedgymnastics at a young age and
then did you play other sportsalso?
I did.
I played anything and everythingaround the neighborhood.
(05:27):
Organized sports was, did soccerfor a while, diving, swimming.
I think I did baseball for awhile.
But that was it.
Gymnastics kind of took theforefront of every available
spare minute I had in my lifepretty early on, I'm sure.
Anyone that does gymnasticsknows that.
Did you just realize because youwere so good at it?
I think sometimes people likewhat they're good at and they're
good at what they like.
(05:48):
It kind of meets in the middle.
Is that what happened for you?
Maybe.
But I was pretty good at diving.
I hated the cold water though.
I think at some point the familyhad so much sweat equity into
the gymnastics lessons that atsome point that has became what
it was.
But I, to be honest with you, Ilook at gymnastics now and I
don't know why.
Because it's a cumbersome,really difficult sport.
(06:11):
Like when you think about whatit takes just to compete.
I've got kids now, and you know,the first time we brought my kid
to soccer, you know, a game, itwas after he'd had two practices
that didn't even look likepractice.
And then they played a game thatweekend, and they had a blast!
It was so fun! And I was like,this is why kids stay in soccer
and other organized sports.
You know what it takes to becompetitive in gymnastics?
It usually takes about threeyears of commitment, three days
(06:34):
a week, for like two hours aday.
And then you might be ready tobe the worst person in your
first competition three yearsinto it You're just like what
all the background training isso intense just so much Yeah,
and that's the behind thescenes, you know, I don't think
you really realize Because youcan play a garbage basketball
game right off the gate.
(06:55):
You might be terrible, but youcan play it.
It's safe.
Whereas, like, the gymnasticsfoundation from strength and
technique that has to developbefore you can even think about
going to your first meet,there's years.
There's years in that.
To me, I think that now is why amajor barrier to entry for
getting kids in gymnasticscompetitively.
I think a lot of other formshave popped up to keep them in
(07:17):
gymnastics.
Playfully recreationally becauseI think everyone has been like I
did gymnastics once And thenthey asked you to be on the team
and you were like see ya Yeahout of here.
Well, I think also it kind ofweeds Itself out.
I mean for me and my kids we'resort of long limbed long legs
not you know I mean, we can't dothe Overs, whatever, pullovers.
(07:38):
There you go.
Kids are flipping over anddoing, you know, I think certain
body types are much more suitedto it.
But as little kids, yeah, everykid is loving being in their
little top gymnastics classes.
Then you get a little older andyou can see those kids who are
really suited to that sport.
Yeah.
And that was me.
I was absolutely a very talentedkid in gymnastics.
I was the jerk that learnedsomething in like one or two
(08:00):
turns when the kid next to mehad been working on that for
months.
And he was just like, dang it,Justin.
So I had an innate talent forbeing a gymnast.
And you just kept wanting to bein the gym.
It was never a pressuring fromyour parents.
No, my parents were really goodwith that.
Despite having a father who wasan astronaut, you know, like,
high achieving, the pressurewasn't there, it was always
(08:20):
about doing what you love, andyou know, they pushed academics
really hard.
I think for me it was, I found aplace for my busy body and
brain.
And what I mean by that is,there's a never ending onslaught
of problems to fix.
And even now, as an adult, Ifixate to fixing problems around
the house.
I'm a little manic in that way.
And like, gymnastics helped givemy manic personality something
(08:44):
to do.
Always.
Always.
You're never done.
The second you learn a newskill, it's like, well, connect
it with something.
Or add a twist to that skill.
Or add a flip to that skill.
You know, or add a twist and aflip to that.
Like, it just never ends.
And that's to some people like areally daunting task.
But for me, I kind of love theidea that you just continually
advance through this crazysport.
(09:06):
There are no limits.
And so like, I just talkedearlier about breaking down
barriers.
Like that was my favorite thing.
It's like, has anyone ever donethis before?
Maybe I could be the first.
Sadly, I was the second personin the world to do triple double
on floor, but first person everto compete a triple full on
vaults for the United States.
So I like, I really like to pushthe difficulty stuff, which is
probably why I got injured alot, but that's what I loved
(09:29):
about the sport.
So I don't think I would havechanged anything looking back.
So that's interesting.
You said in college is when youkind of got this idea like, Oh,
maybe the Olympics and it wasOlympics really the ultimate
goal more than any other thingon the international stage, the
ultimate achievement.
Absolutely.
A hundred percent because of thesensationalism that we put
(09:49):
around the Olympic movement.
Funny enough, the worldchampionships that happen every
other year that there's not anOlympics, the world
championships are far morecompetitive.
Oh, in fact, many of thegreatest athletes in the world
are not present at the Olympicgames because he or she just had
one bad routine at the Olympicqualifier because it's so
(10:09):
selective because of how big itis, only so many teams qualified
to the Olympic games.
Whereas the world championships.
It's everyone.
So you've got that one eventspecialist that is like just a
freak of nature on that eventand can be a world champion.
He might've not been at theOlympic games.
Wow.
The Olympic games, however, isthe gold standard for greatness.
(10:30):
There are world champions thatbarely get a news blurb about
them.
And then if you win the Olympicgold medal, there's a big buzz.
And, but not even so anymore.
I don't know, like you'll getsome media coverage, but it
doesn't really change your life.
I think that's where it getstricky with.
Olympic movement sports becauseif you're doing it to achieve
this gold medal at the roadHoping and thinking it'll change
your life.
(10:51):
You're going to be prettydisappointed.
Yeah for most of you Yeah, youhave to have some other drive
because first of all It's suchan elusive goal to even make the
team let alone win a medal letalone a gold medal And then what
is that really going to do foryou?
I mean we've heard a lot aboutmichael phelps and everybody
else that you can win it andthen there's A lot of depression
that can set in and all that.
It has to be a whole otherinternal motivation to want to
(11:14):
succeed, not just to earn amedal.
Well, at least it was a careerfor Phelps, right?
There's tons of gold medalwinners that go home.
They have their little miniparade in their small town.
They get the key to the city orthey do an appearance at the
library.
And then it's like, man, time toget on LinkedIn and find out
what you're going to do for therest of your life.
Oh, and by the way, you're 33now.
(11:34):
And you just spent literallyyour entire life training for
this thing.
And you did it.
You did it.
You beat all the odds.
You're the number one, right?
And, and then that's it.
And now what?
And now what?
It's, it can be really hard.
It can be, and there, I thinkthere's a lot of, there's a lot
of books about this or journalsand studies and like.
It really blows their minds upbecause they have this, this
thing, but put on a pedestalthinking it's going to set them
(11:55):
up for life.
And like I did it, I won a medalfor team USA and it makes for a
good story.
That's about it.
But life goes on.
Correct.
So you had a really illustriouscollege career.
I mean, you won NCAAchampionships.
What was it like competing withyour teammates?
Yeah.
Because they're your teammates,but they're also your
(12:16):
competitors.
That's more so with the Olympicmovement.
And honestly, that's why I lovecollege so much.
There might be some inter teamkind of like competitiveness,
but like that was the one beautyabout collegiate athletics is
it's truly the only space thatreally exists where gymnastics
exists as a team sport.
You're in the gym with your 15to 20 other guys or women
(12:37):
training for a common goal.
And it's about putting up thebest lineup spots and all the
events to have the biggest teamscore.
Yeah.
So you're competing for maybelineup spots a little bit, but
the more that you compete forthose lineup spots, the better
your team is.
For me, it was my favorite formto compete in, to include the
Olympics.
Competing at the Olympics was anightmare, the pressure and the
(12:57):
stage.
You're never really ready forthat epic moment.
You spent your whole, again,your whole career is built up
for this one competition.
Yeah.
A few minutes.
And there you are.
You know, it was my first time.
We were all Olympic rookies onthat team and that was heavy.
Three up, three count, NBC, thatOlympics was like largest
viewership in the history of theOlympic Games combined.
(13:17):
Oh my gosh.
And we're just like, oh, good toknow.
They let you know that ahead oftime?
Literally as we're walking outinto three up, three count team
finals.
That was a comment from one ofthe camera.
I'll never forget he said that.
I remember I turned around andlooked at one of the guys and I
was like, Well, that's goodinformation right now.
It's terrible.
But we, our team did a reallygood job at diffusing that
(13:37):
nervous energy.
But to finish your questionabout college athletics, the
beauty of college athletics isfor once you have a season.
All your meets until then hasbeen all about like getting to
the next one so that you canmaybe make the national team.
Whereas like college, it's aboutyour record, the wins and
losses, every meet kind ofmatter.
There's some strategy there.
And so I think it was fun tocompete in that team setting,
(13:59):
knowing that your one routine,even if you had a mistake, we're
still in this because this is ateam challenge.
It's a team battle.
I felt more at ease knowing thatthis was a team effort, even
though that most of my career, Ihad a lot of the team on my back
being one of the betterathletes.
I still just felt morecomfortable.
It's kind of diffusing thatresponsibility, like team effort
(14:20):
here, people.
I know I'm just, yeah, you know,and I, and ironically, some
people that is way harder forthem.
It crushes their mental game,knowing that I'm fine if I screw
up because it just affects me.
But if I screw up and now ithurts the team, that extra
weight really.
So it's funny, the samesituation just flipped the other
way and it's really hard forothers.
Whereas I really thrived andlove that competitive
(14:42):
environment.
Did you have some of that mentaltraining in college?
Did that start at a younger ageof someone helping you with a
psychological training, sportspsychology?
Yeah, sports psychology.
And everyone's got, there's somany plans and methods out
there, but a lot of them arerooted in the same concepts.
And a lot of it is you get outof it, what you put into it.
(15:04):
I always prided myself on beinga good competitor, but at the
same time, I was someone who, ifthis is going to give me a
competitive edge, why wouldn't Itry this?
Not the same approach withsteroids or something like that,
but like, yeah, rightMethodologies, right?
Let me uh huh.
So I was like, yeah, let's dothis And where I really found it
to be most helpful was throughall of my surgeries.
(15:24):
So I had nine orthopedicsurgeries Oh, wow, and they all
happened in the final five yearsof my training.
So that was like almost everyyear From 05 leading up to the
Olympic Games, I had a surgeryor two.
Can you name some of them?
Was it like shoulder and knee orwhat was your major?
A little bit of everything,Elizabeth, actually.
You're a gymnast, so everythingis affected.
(15:44):
So I tore my ACL almost exactlyone calendar year out from the
Olympic Games doing the vaultthat was kind of not ever been
really done.
So shoulder surgery, a labrumtear, three ankle surgeries on
each ankle.
So that was six of them, two ofwhich were after the Olympics.
I competed at the Olympic gameswith a torn deltoid ligament on
my ankle.
And that's a whole nother story.
(16:05):
So that, that was not fun.
I didn't know you competedinjured.
Wow.
So it was just constantly comingback and finally getting back to
where you were or even better.
And then, BAM! Oh, under theknife again and let's start
over.
So that was really the bigmoment where I think mental
training became an absolutenecessity for me.
I used it for sports performanceand enhancement, but it really
(16:26):
drug me out of a pretty darkplace.
Actually with the ACL tear, myinstant reaction when I tore my
ACL was just like, Anotherinjury, can't wait to come back
and be the comeback kid.
But then I think where it reallystarts to hit you is as you
start that super slow rehabprocess.
Because the first part of doingan ACL recovery is like you're
inchworming your knee, right?
So, you know, you're like, allright, the Olympic trials is in
(16:48):
like 10 months and here I amdoing this.
Yeah, like you're just inchingyour knee.
You're watching the clock too.
100%.
And I just come off my labrumsurgery, which is a really long
recovery for me and then twoankle surgeries.
So it was like it just came backfrom those.
Back in shape.
07 was going to be the year I'mgoing to be like, tune up, get
(17:09):
ready for the Olympics and showthat I'm like going to be the
guy for this Olympic team.
And then bam, tear my ACL.
So that was a really rough spot.
And that's where I turned tokind of getting a mental
training of.
Honestly being psyched up for myrehab.
So I had like a mental trainingprogram that I used to start my
rehab for my knee.
You know, going through themotions versus attacking your
(17:30):
recovery plan makes a bigdifference on how fast you're
able to come back.
And so actually that workedtremendously well.
I was able to kind of see myselfat the Olympics and see where I
wanted to be and tie that intohow this is the first step of
like 30 of my recovery process.
And I would get psyched.
I would just get super amped todo my rehab.
Yeah.
And like, kind of felt like Iwas on this mission, like on my
(17:50):
own little Rocky trainingmontage that you've seen in
every fighting movie in thehistory of fighting movies, I
kind of became the hero of myown story and this is me like
starting my comeback, but themental training put me in that
space to be really excited aboutthat rather than being like, I'm
here again to do these stupidlittle.
Motions that this person'smaking me go through, you know,
(18:12):
you just, it's hard and why?
Yeah, anytime you would get intothe bad attitude.
You would just flip your brainand say no I'm the hero of my
own story and yes, well itstarted with there was a
program.
I had like a eight minute Idon't want to say meditation
because it wasn't meditation.
It was like you walk throughyour steps.
A thought process.
Mm hmm.
(18:33):
Yeah I mean, that's a reallygreat thing, especially for
something like that, but almostfor any part of our lives you
know any day that you're sort ofletting your mind go down some
path seeing the negative in lifeand you can kind of switch and
see the positive stuff instead.
Yours was incredibly dramaticand had major consequences at
the end but we could Do that anytime of life.
(18:54):
Sometimes you need a pickup foranything in the day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember walking in feeling ontop of the world, ready to like,
just dominate my rehabilitationworkouts.
And that was really importantbecause it's so easy to get lost
there.
So it was very helpful.
And so we have a plan to try tobuild that for daily training
(19:14):
because the monotony of trainingcan be tough and you're always
dealing with minor aches andpains and setbacks.
And so kind of maintaining that.
Focus and that level ofintensity in your workouts is
really important to becomingyour best.
You can't just rely on coach topick you up every day.
We want to be the positivecoaches in people's lives, but
at the same time, a self drivenathlete that's on a mission and
(19:37):
hungry for what they want, like,that's unstoppable.
They're going to have a goodyear.
So what happened?
You went through that recoveryprocess, then how many months
did you have to get physicallyback in shape before the Olympic
trials?
So funny enough, I got backreally early.
I got back doing the all aroundalmost in like seven months and
went out to the Olympic TrainingCenter to do my first all around
(20:00):
competition in tune up.
First event, I'm finishing myfloor routine and I land short
on a double flipping pass, afull twisting double back.
And I land kind of like my legsturned out like a duck.
At the time, I had no idea thatI just sprained my ankle.
But I actually tore my deltoidligament on the inside of my
ankle.
Oh my gosh.
And the timeline, again, withthe Olympic trials right around
(20:20):
the corner, we didn't get anMRI.
We just assumed it was a sprain.
They shipped me down to Texas,USA Gymnastics, to get this,
like, MRT treatment toaggressively get the swelling
out.
And it really helped.
And I got right back to work.
But floor and vault reallydidn't come back.
I was not able to do floor.
(20:40):
I just couldn't.
It hurt so bad.
I tore my right ACL and then myleft ankle still really is
messed up.
Something's so wrong.
And I'm just like the Olympicsagain, that timeline is just
building, it's building, and somy coach comes up with the idea
and this is like two weeks out.
I basically get selected slashushered through to the Olympic
trials after doing only fourevents at USA championships,
(21:03):
which was considered half of theOlympic trial process.
And that's just because you hadproven yourself.
Didn't do floor, which was oneof my best events.
But they knew that you were sucha strong.
I proved myself on other events.
Okay.
Yeah.
So as a change of pace, my coachsays, Hey, let's go out to the
Olympic training center.
Get with the national team,change of environment, because
we're just getting superfrustrated and we'll just kind
(21:24):
of make a final push out therebefore we head out to the
Olympic trials.
I was like, that's a great idea.
I love that place, even thoughthat's where it hurt my ankle.
This was it.
This is the moment.
And so I go out there and I'mdoing a crazy amount of tumbling
on a mangled left ankle and akind of coming back on my right
knee.
Pre existing condition, I have,so I have two herniated discs in
my back.
And so when you're favoring aleft ankle and a right knee, The
(21:46):
back.
Your back starts to really, itwas not good.
And so, darkest moment of myentire career, I wake up after a
hard push on Floor Vault, andthe dorms at that point were
like a barracks.
At night, I'm trying to go, youknow, bathroom.
I fall out of bed, and I'm like,Huh.
My legs are asleep.
Like, this is odd.
I pull myself back up and, uh, Iget out of bed again.
(22:08):
I'm like, trying to shake themawake and fall out of bed again.
And that's when I, like, have,like, my ultimate darkest moment
of my career.
I realize my legs motor functionaren't working.
Ah! Panic.
I commando crawled down the hallto my coach and was like, We got
a problem here.
Something's very wrong.
Yeah.
And so that was two weeks beforethe Olympic trials.
(22:29):
What was it?
Were your discs just pressing ona nerve or something?
Correct.
I had done so much landing inthe wrong position favoring my
two lower extremities that Ibasically really pushed those
discs bad into like the motor.
It's never happened since.
Funny enough, I'm going to get acortisone injection tomorrow for
my back because it's still, outof all the surgeries, it's the
(22:49):
one thing that bothers me everyday still.
Oh my gosh, that must have beenso scary.
And that was so close to theOlympics.
I mean, I cannot believe youcompeted and competed so
brilliantly then.
That is incredible.
That's the weird, that's the endof the story, yeah.
They threw me on a ton of musclerelaxers to get everything to
calm down.
I basically did nothing theseven or eight days, that first
(23:12):
part of those two weeks.
And then shipped out to thetrials.
And started feeling better.
And I ran into one of theselection committee members and
saying, Hey, I don't know if youheard my story.
Not really prepared to do afloor routine and he was like
you just don't really fit theteam without your floor That's
one of your best events And Iwas in an elevator and I changed
(23:32):
the floor into my coach's roomafter that one comment I said,
hey, we're doing floor tomorrow.
We have to try a routine I didit with a water down dismount,
but it was good enough I think Iplaced second that day one.
And so it was actually a badfinish.
And people in the audience, theywere like, that was like a rough
ending.
But to me, that was like thegreatest moment of my gymnastics
career was finishing that floorroutine day one at Olympic
(23:53):
trials.
Because you did it.
And no one understood thatexcept for me and my coach.
Most people were probably like,Oh, that was a terrible
dismount.
And I'm like, I made it, I madeit.
All that backstory.
You know what you've beenthrough.
I would do that.
So that was a wild ride.
Yeah.
Wow.
And then how long between thetrials and going off to the
Olympics?
(24:13):
A long time, actually, back in08.
It was like six weeks.
It was a long time.
There was a huge window thatyear.
So you could recover.
And they did that, so I thinkthat you could manage your
training cycle to kind ofrecover, come down off your
training cycle, and then try topeak again for the Olympics,
which for me was fantastic atthat time because we were still
trying to figure out what theheck was going on with my ankle.
(24:34):
So then you got to kind of rehaba little bit then in that period
of time and by the time you wentOff to the Olympics.
Lots of tape.
Lots of tape.
So I never got fixed.
I had to have two surgeriesafter the Olympics to actually
repair my ankle.
And at the Olympics, we justtaped it up like a lot.
That's a lot of naproxen,sodium, or Aleve, or whatever
(24:54):
you want to call it, and heavy,heavy, heavy tape jobs.
And they put me in on floor inthree up, three count.
Like I did floor for our teamfinal.
That was a moment.
I was like, guys, I'm normallythe guy that's like, I can
handle everything.
But I've done like, A handful offloor routines and my ankles and
they were just like you got itbig guy And I was like, oh my
god, I guess I I guess I do Sois that another mental game that
(25:16):
you played with yourself?
Like I got this my ankle is nothurting My back is fine How do
you prepare yourself for thosemoments?
So I think our team was reallyunique in the way that we
approached our Olympic games.
So our team originally had Pauland Morgan Hamm on the team, who
had both been to two Olympicsbefore then.
(25:36):
And Paul, at that time, was thereigning Olympic all around gold
medalist from 2004.
So having him on your team, Youwanted those guys in your team
because of their experience, andthey've just proven themselves.
They're both world and Olympicmedalists.
This is awesome.
And so, through injury, both ofthem ended up withdrawing from
the team.
Morgan, actually, he didn'twithdraw from the team, he was
(25:59):
told he needed to showcompetitive readiness.
In the last training sessionbefore team prelims While in
beijing and couldn't so like incomes our second alternate
heartbreaking.
Yeah, so that was crazy and soit kind of became a story of
Like I dare something else to gowrong with this Because we all
kind of had our own likecomeback story journeys and the
(26:20):
team itself had this resiliencepiece of losing paul Like all
right first alternate then weleave for beijing Lose Morgan
right before I compete.
In comes Sasha.
Like, Sasha Artemov literallymoved into the Olympic Village.
The day before we competed, teamprelims.
Wow.
He was in the auxiliary sitecause they're not allowed in the
Olympic village until they'reofficially on the team.
So he just moved in and we werejust like, Hey man, haven't seen
(26:42):
you in like two weeks, you readyto compete at the Olympics
tomorrow?
Wild.
Just what a mind trip.
So he was in China.
Correct.
At least they weren't justflying him in.
No, that would have been evencrazier, but you have to
anticipate injuries withgymnastics.
So he was there training withour two other alternates and
Sasha got the pick.
So our team motto just kind ofbecame like.
(27:03):
Bring it on! Like, this iscrazy, you know, and, and, and
started to really embrace the upand down journey that the team
was going on and that we weregoing on ourselves and kind of
mocked the pressure of the meet.
Anything we could do to diffusehow intense that moment is.
I mean, it's, it's a big moment.
I think everyone copes and dealswith it in a different way and
we were kind of a goofy teamthat liked to, you know, Make
fun of ourselves and make fun ofthe intensity and pressure that
(27:26):
felt like it was boiling overfor us.
And I think it worked.
We competed really well.
I had a great meet and um, wonan unsuspecting bronze medal.
So that was really cool.
First medal, I think won byOlympic rookies.
It was incredible.
You were not expected to get onthe podium.
Well, when you lose Paul, thereigning Olympic gollar on
champ.
And then you lose the only otherOlympic experience on the team,
(27:48):
Morgan, who's a world medalistand, you know, and had been the
face of USA Gymnastics forliterally eight years.
The media was like, this teamwill be lucky to make finals,
let alone win a medal, likewinning a medal, there's no
chance.
And funny enough, I think thatall of that made it all a little
bit easier to compete because Ithink the hardest thing to do,
and I think we saw this a littlebit with Simone Biles.
(28:09):
is compete with unbelievableexpectation to be the best.
That pressure.
Yeah, and so our team, ifnothing else, didn't have any of
that pressure.
No one expected us to doanything remarkable or credible,
right?
You can barely make team finals.
Like we don't even want to coverthem.
I still remember NBC being like,you guys are doing so good.
(28:29):
We're actually going to startcovering like in the meat
because like they just, everyonewould like countered us out.
So we like, we had something toprove to ourselves, but felt
like no one else really cared.
And I think that helped.
There was just no expectation onour performance.
Expectation's a pretty heavything.
Yeah.
Where are you set the bar?
You still want to set it highfor you guys.
I mean, literally the bar.
(28:49):
I guess that's gymnastics talk.
The metaphor.
Very high bar.
The literal bar.
The literal high bar.
Yeah.
You performed great there.
I mean, I guess you just workedthrough all your injuries and
you did so well.
Do you remember how it felt tofinish your various routines and
to like stick a landing and canyou bottle that feeling?
(29:11):
Blank.
I had one of the better means ofmy career at the Olympic trials
and honestly at the Olympics.
But again, I think it came downto, I didn't go into this like,
I trained my entire life.
This is my moment.
Everything's perfect.
It's ready to go.
It's set up, dude.
Just don't blow it.
Just, this is it.
It was more like I rolled off anemergency ER visit two weeks
(29:31):
ago.
I can't even believe I'm hereright now.
Like, let's just see what, like,let's just send it.
Let's go, baby.
That's a very different attitudeto have.
At the Olympic trials.
Cause again, like so many peopleput their entire lives to
converge in this competition tomake this Olympic team and
whether it's expectation fromtheir families and coaches and
their communities or onthemselves, I was just like,
(29:52):
man, I'm just happy I'm not onbedrest like I was 10 days ago.
So like, I felt like, again,like I had nothing to lose and
probably had back to back to thebest meets.
I've had my entire life at theOlympic trials because of that.
It's a weird like blessing indisguise, you know, you don't
want to get injured, but in away it, it did kind of reset
things for you.
(30:12):
Yeah, it's funny.
You see that happen in athletesnow and as a coach for the last
15 years You see a lot ofathletes do that every time you
get to post season Everyone allof a sudden has just like this
thing that's kind of botheringthem Like hey coach just want to
let you know like shoulders beenreally acting up today Really?
Like you've never had a shoulderissue in your entire life, you
know, like it's like yes, butbut like i'm good I just I just
(30:35):
kind of like i'll work throughlike we're good And it's almost
just kind of that like get outof jail like just in case I mess
up You There's a reason.
It's the bottom shoulder.
Yeah, and like, I get that.
It's their way of trying to,like, diffuse that, like, I know
I'm expected to hit and beperfect, and I've got one chance
and one chance only to do it forus and the team.
That's a lot of pressure.
(30:55):
But like, man, if I mess up andthen it's not my fault because I
was hurting.
That would be better than if Ijust messed up because I messed
up and so you see that a lot AndI get it because it's intense
you get one chance one chanceonly to this incredibly
difficult thing and it'ssupposed to be perfect You know,
like man that's brutal.
Yeah, and you're literallygetting judged I mean, they're
(31:18):
literally judges giving younumbers about how perfect or how
imperfect you are being from theperfect mark Correct, and you
live that day in day outbasically from your coach like
telling you where yourdeductions are You have to be
very mindful of that becausecoaching can become very
negative in a judge sport likethat, where your job is to
(31:38):
highlight the areas we need tofix.
And to do that, you need to knowwhat the deductions are.
And so it kind of lends itselfto always identifying your
faults, failures, and problemareas.
That is not a positiveenvironment to exist in.
And so you need to find ways tobe a better, more positive coach
and to still work on all thethings that need to be worked
on.
(31:58):
So it's a challenge.
Olympic sports are tough.
Gymnastics specifically is verychallenging in that way.
I wanted to ask a little bitabout the Olympic experience
when you were there.
I assume before your events, wasit kind of intense just living
in the Olympic Village and allthat?
And then afterwards, was it sortof fun?
I think you'd get a verydifferent answer if you ask a
(32:19):
men's gymnast versus a women'sgymnast, first of all, at least
certainly back then.
For us, peaking as a malegymnast in your early, mid to
late 20s, we're all kind ofgrown adults, and so there's a
little bit more freedom andownership given into our
training process, at least Frommy observations at that time.
And so when we got there, it wasa blast, honestly.
(32:42):
We had our training and thenrather than sitting in the gym
or the Olympic village and goingstir crazy, we went out, we were
at the silk market.
We all went bartered for custommade suits and shirts.
And like, we were enjoyingourselves because the last thing
you want to do is just sit andstare at a blank wall and be
like, okay, 14 hours and 13minutes until I have to perform
at the Olympic game, you know,like that, that's not great.
(33:05):
Yeah, so we did a lot of thingstogether.
And actually our, our team isstill incredibly close.
We have a group thread.
We chat often from birthdaywishes to life moments.
And we go to each other'sweddings.
We're actually very, very closeteam still.
And so it was amazing.
You know, we buckled down andgot real serious with a couple
of days before making sureyou're, you're covering your
rest and recovery things.
(33:25):
But it was amazing.
China and from what I've heard.
Of others that have been to manyother Olympics, like the Beijing
China Olympics was one of thegreatest Olympics ever put on in
the modern day Olympic movement.
My family was in town and mygirlfriend, who's now my wife,
so like I spent a lot of timewith them and the team exploring
the city and just kind ofcelebrating an unexpected medal
(33:46):
win, but it was great.
We just kind of bond again.
There's this overlying.
Pressure that just everyonecarries when they're at the
Olympics in the focus, and thenas the vents started to close,
you would feel the energy swing.
Like 10 days into being there,you could tell athletes were
starting to finish, and it wasstarting to become, you know,
(34:08):
The celebration and party scenethat you've probably read and
heard about.
And we absolutely took part inthat.
We, we won a medal, you know,and you had dedicated your
entire life.
And so, yeah, we were allgrownups and adults and we went
out and celebrated.
So it was, it was a lot of fun.
So that fact of getting thirdplace as opposed to fourth place
(34:28):
really makes a big difference,doesn't it?
It seems like as viewers, that'swhat we're getting, you know,
you got on the podium.
That's incredible.
But I just sometimes think aboutfor the athletes, like, it's
just so great to be there.
It's so impressive to if you getfourth, if you get tenth, I
think it's all pretty great, butI wonder if you got that many
more accolades, you know, is itthat much more satisfying that
(34:51):
you actually have?
Yeah, but you know the countrywe live in, the United States.
Yeah, I sure do.
You know, the first question is,you were in the Olympics?
Did you win a gold medal?
I actually can't even tell youhow many times I've been
introduced.
And speaking engagements 2008Olympic gold medalist Justin
spring and I'll walk out on thestage and the first thing I have
to do which is Not what you wantto do when you're starting a
(35:13):
speaking is tear down your ownintroduction.
You're like Well as much as Iwant to let that go.
I am not a gold medalist It is abronze medal if you hold it in
the light just right.
It looks gold, but yeah Only gotthird place like sorry, but
anyway onto my speaking only soyeah And I'm totally fine with
(35:33):
that, right?
Again, I think because I wasjust happy to be.
And so like getting third wasicing on the cake, but then some
for us, especially with ourteam's journey of losing Paul
and Morgan.
And there's only been threemeddling teams in men's Olympic
U.
S.
history.
Wow.
You have the gold medal teamfrom 84.
Yeah.
You have the silver team from 04and then you have the bronze
(35:54):
team from 08.
That's it.
We're not like the women who'vewon like every year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I'm curious about that.
I'd kind of like to go a littlebit into your coaching career
too, because I know that youstarted coaching men's
gymnastics, and now you'recoaching women's college
gymnastics.
Big change.
Just happened.
I'm curious about kind of thestate of men's gymnastics in the
(36:14):
U.
S., or maybe it's worldwide, andis women's gymnastics just so
much more popular?
And men's or can you speak alittle bit to that?
Can speak a lot to that.
Yeah.
worldwide.
I think it's fairly unchanged.
I think what's happening in theUnited States is you're seeing
the NCAA model have a completeparadigm shift.
(36:36):
College athletics, 40, 50 yearsago.
They were all intramural sports.
Money wasn't tied into thiswhole thing.
And now that's like a laughablestatement.
Because college athletics isbig, big, big business.
And unlike in professionalsports, when you have recruiting
tethered to be coming andstaying the best, which you have
to do if you want to pack yourstands, and remain a winning
(37:00):
championship team in the sportsthat matter.
Which is football andbasketball.
You have to invest insaneamounts of money, time, energy,
and money and money and moneyinto those sports.
And recruiting is a big piece ofthat.
Making sure you continue to getthe best players so that you
continue to win.
So you continue to be the bestand drive fan engagement, TV
(37:20):
contracts that keep this wholething afloat.
And so as that has happened,that in combination with title
nine, saying that the money thatyou spend on.
Women must be comparable andequal to what you spend on the
men.
And so as the money spent on menhas gone absolutely through the
roof on the sports that drivethe whole industry, you have to
(37:40):
spend equivalent amount ondollars and opportunities for
women's sports.
Great intent and it's doneincredible things for women
athletes from essentially beingnon existent in the 60s and 70s
to now it's a vibrant industryand that's awesome.
The opportunities are great, butthe repercussions, the
unintended consequences of TitleIX is that it has decimated
(38:02):
men's Olympic sports in college.
And men's gym is currentlyhanging on by a thread with 14
programs left for 14 nationwidein college I had no idea it was
so paltry.
That's it.
Is that are you talking d1?
Uh, no, that's all of them.
We can dial back spending onfootball or basketball Or if we
(38:25):
want to spend more there, thenwe can add a women's sport, or
we could do what we want withbasketball and football and put
them in the right position andwe can just cut a men's sport.
That's exactly what manyprograms did.
So it's not good.
And the problem with that is, isthey're all Olympic drivers.
Four out of the six guys on myOlympic team came directly from
a college program, like I did.
I trained at the University ofIllinois.
(38:47):
The reason I made the Olympicswas because of the University of
Illinois and my trainingenvironment there and my
coaching and support.
From there.
And so that's why it's, it's notgood.
So it's pretty much the entirepipeline is going to dry up.
There's no incentive, really,for boys who really love
gymnastics.
They're not going to havecollege scholarships to look
forward to, and then an Olympicsto go forward to.
(39:08):
That's the problem.
That's the real carrot at theend of the stair.
Just that chance to compete incollege is so many athletes
desire and goal and dream.
You know, the Olympics is fivespots every four years.
Like that's crazy for mostpeople, but making a college
team is not.
That's very attainable or it hasbeen.
And yeah, it's absolutelygetting almost impossible now.
(39:29):
So that's why I sayinternationally, it hasn't
changed much because we're theonly place whose Olympic.
Driver model has been completelyintertwined with NCAA collegiate
model.
So this explains what you weresaying, the difference in the
Olympics, the USA men's versusUSA women's.
I mean, no wonder we haven't hadany medalists since 08.
It's just drying up.
(39:50):
I think that's a big piece.
And as that's drying up, you'vegot other countries.
And I think there's anotherthing to the Olympic movement
that people don't realize isthat almost every Olympic
athlete is a volunteer.
Unless you are a Michael Phelpsafter 08 and you're training for
12, you don't get paid to dothis.
Like I had a full time job.
I was the assistant coach at theUniversity of Illinois and my
(40:12):
side hustle Was training to beone of the best in the world at
one of the hardest sports in theworld and make an olympic team
That is the story for almostevery olympic athlete out there
They're living in their parentsbasements.
The local car shop is givingthem a ten thousand dollar
training stipend Like the gymsare just Cutting them some
slack, not charging them totrain there because they bring
(40:33):
some prestige, but like mostpeople don't make any money with
this and they put their entirelives on hold to train, to help
win team America, a couplemedals or team of volunteers
straight up, except for theelite, elite, elite one to 2
percent that are multiple,multiple, multiple time Olympic
gold medal winners in the rightsport.
The marquee sports that got alot of notice.
(40:56):
Paul Ham was an Olympic goldmedalist.
He didn't get that same kind ofSimone Biles attention.
Or any of those girls.
I know so many names from allthe past Olympics.
The women all around, theybecome like America's
sweetheart.
Ever since Mary Lou Renton.
That's right.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah, it's interesting whatgains popularity and support and
(41:17):
can be, uh, pushed into a careerand what can't.
I mean, I guess in some ways, Iguess I, I leveraged my Olympic
journey into a career.
I had two years of assistantcoaching experience under my
belt and they gave me the headcoaching position at the
University of Illinois.
Coaching seems like an awesomeplace to land.
Has that been super fulfillingfor you?
It is.
And specifically collegecoaching.
(41:37):
Yes.
To be honest with you, thatmight be the most life changing
thing that ever happened to mebecause I made the Olympics.
I said my whole life I wanted tobe a teacher and then found out
that coaching is essentiallyteaching with a better salary
and uses my technical niche.
Don't get me started on that.
We should triple our teachersalaries.
I'm sure you had a lot ofinfluential coaches through your
(41:58):
years and did some of them.
And good and bad ways.
Oh yeah.
And I think you learn anddevelop your coaching style like
that.
You know, one of the firstthings I learned was I think I'm
just very self aware and good atpicking up other people's energy
or contentment.
And like, I think that's a bigpart of knowing when and how to
push someone is such a hugepiece of being a good coach.
(42:19):
Great athletes need to be pushedin the right ways to become
their best.
But you can break someone bypushing someone at the wrong
time or too aggressively.
And I think that's where you getinto coaching is abusive.
And you know, so like knowinghow to make someone their best.
And knowing how to push someonethe right way, I think is so
much of what coaching entailsand very little of that has
(42:39):
anything to do with thetechnical law of the sport.
It's about being able to readpeople and understand what they
want and listening to them andthen using what they tell you
about what they want in thisprocess and getting to know them
and then knowing how to get themto become their best.
So that was the first lesson Ilearned was like using myself as
an example.
And one of my guys was like,yeah, I know that you can do
(43:00):
that really easy, but thatdoesn't really help me.
And instead of being like, well,I was just, you know, showing
you as a visual example, it waslike, that was a profound
statement right there.
Like, yeah, that was worthlessfor you.
And probably just made him feelterrible that his old retired
coach can get up and do thatprobably made him feel this big.
Like he doesn't need that.
And so boom, lesson number one,early coach, like don't ever use
myself as an example because hisjourney, his experience, his
(43:23):
struggle is not mine.
And probably doesn't see it as,even if it felt identical, he
probably doesn't feel like it'sidentical.
He or she, I should say.
They're all going through theirown experiences, and so you need
to meet them where they're at,which is kind of a big thing
that we say a lot now.
Are there differences nowcoaching men and coaching women?
Nope.
(43:43):
It's identical.
I'm just kidding.
Of course there's unbelievabledifferences, but not as
profound.
I was very, very nervous inmaking this shift.
I was tremendously nervous.
Every time I'd ever walked intoa gym as a coach, I'd known
every athlete very, very, verywell because I came from the
team that I started coaching inand worked up through the ranks.
So like that alone of justmaking the shift of walking into
(44:07):
a gym of 18 complete strangersthat I've never met before kind
of freaked me out.
And now I'm supposed to be theircoach, but it was also 18 women.
And I have never coached a womanathlete in my entire life.
And really, honestly, a littlebit of how it process emotion, I
think has been a littledifferent men generally.
And I don't want to stereotype ahundred percent, but like men
(44:28):
generally get their frustrationout by.
banging their head againstsomething or hitting something
or an inappropriate exclamatoryremark at the top of their
lungs.
Whereas I found women kind ofget it out sometimes through
just kind of overwhelming, alittle bit of tears, but, but
then everyone re engages thesame way.
This team that I'm working withnow is unbelievably resilient,
(44:50):
incredibly hardworking, verycoachable.
I've only been here for twomonths and I feel like I'm, I'm
actually exactly where maybe I'msupposed to be all of my life.
I'm trying to figure out why.
I leave practices feeling morefulfilled.
And I don't know that it's thesport, the gender, this team
versus my team.
I'm still, I don't think I haveenough experience, but I am
(45:13):
leaving feeling more like I'mmaking a bigger difference.
And I don't know why.
A little bit might be men's towomen's gymnastics.
It's a completely different codeof points.
Whereas there's a 10 0 cap inwomen's gymnastics, men's
gymnastics in college is theOlympic code of points, which is
open ended.
There's an endless amount ofdifficulty you can continue to
(45:35):
add to your routine, which initself, if you think about it,
is unrelenting and completelyexhausting.
At no point in any of myathletes careers ever are we
content, happy, and feelingsuccessful.
Like we have a routine that isthe final routine and we can
celebrate that.
It's like a second you learnsomething new for a male
gymnast.
It's like, okay, can we upgradethat?
(45:57):
Can we add a twist?
Can we add a flip?
Can we make it harder?
Wow, right.
It's like saying, I just wantyou to live up to your
potential.
And you're like, well, what's mypotential?
It's infinite, I guess.
It never ends.
Keep going.
That is exhausting as a coach toknow that at every moment in
your coaching career, every oneof your athletes still has an
endless amount to improve, getbetter, and get better, and
(46:18):
improve on, and get better, andimprove on, and get better every
day, day in, day out.
There's never like a, a winmoment almost.
There's no end.
We had an athlete learn a newvault that is the 10 0 start
value.
Like, I literally, I got tearyeyed.
I was so excited and that's allwe need.
And now we perfect it and wemake it better, but like, we got
this big thing and it was such acelebration moment.
(46:40):
Those wins are so hard to findin men's gymnastics because of
how unrelenting it is.
This pursuit of the higher startvalue, always.
I think that's a really profoundobservation.
And mentally, it's like adifferent game for men and
women.
It's a totally different game.
I think it's the reason thatpopularity is surging in women's
gymnastics.
(47:00):
These win moments happen all thetime with 10 0 and hit routines.
Whereas you see falling all overthe place in collegiate men's
gymnastics because you got goodgymnasts trying Olympic level
gymnastics to try to be thebest.
But it's also like, you got a 14Everyone in the stands is like,
is that good?
Yeah, and if you're a diehardfan, you're like, that was
(47:23):
great.
But like, if you're trying tobuild new fan viewership, then
they don't know.
And that's the thing.
It was amazing.
I was impressed with whathappened down there.
And then after two and a halfhours of a meet, there's one win
moment in the men's gymnasticsmeet, where I think women have
done a really good job.
There's a lot of winning momentsthroughout their competitions
that you sensationalize and makebig, and that's exciting.
(47:44):
And They're killing it.
TV coverage is through the roofand fans are packing in the
doors.
And it's great.
They figured out a model that'squick, heavy hitting, fast
paced, light hearted.
And it's a show that plays towhat people want to see at a
sporting event.
This has been so fun andinteresting.
I've learned so much from you.
(48:05):
I didn't know all this aboutmen's and women's gymnastics,
and I love the behind the scenesabout the Olympics.
I'm a huge Olympics fan, havewatched every Olympics my whole
life, so thank you for sharingall of that.
Thanks for being a fan, thatsomehow that supported my
ability to do what I did, sothank you.
Thanks a lot, Justin.
I appreciate your time and justbeing so open with me.
(48:26):
Thank you.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
Thanks for having me on.
Appreciate it.
It's pretty easy to see whyJustin is such a successful
coach, isn't it?
He's full of motivation,encouragement, and obviously
experience.
Here are some of my takeawaysfrom our conversation.
Number one, be intentional aboutyour goals and why you're
(48:48):
pursuing them.
Two, embrace the journey you'reon, even when it's up and down
at times.
Three.
Facing something daunting?
Become the hero of your ownstory.
Visualize each step of the way,including the ending.
Picture yourself victorious.
Four.
(49:09):
A key to being a great coach ora great friend is listening to
people and trying to understandwhat they want and need.
Five.
Expectations can be punishing.
Imagine what could happen if youfreed yourself and others from
them.
Six.
Something that seems mediocre toothers may be the most
(49:30):
impressive thing in your life.
Other people's opinions don'tmatter.
Only you know your whole story.
And finally, number seven.
Take the wins when and where youfind them.
Celebrate them.
And by the way, you do not haveto get or be a perfect ten to be
a winner.
(49:51):
My big thanks to Justin forgiving me this insider's look
into the Olympic experience.
And for teaching me so muchabout collegiate gymnastics.
Thanks.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Justin, go to the show
notes for this episode on ourwebsite, whatitsliketo.
net.
You can also find all of ourpast episodes there.
If you're like me and you lovethe Olympics, you might want to
(50:14):
listen to episode 12 with JeffCable.
He's photographed the Olympicssince 2010.
And if you like hearing fromstar athletes, check out episode
38 with former NFL quarterbackJake Locker.
If you're enjoying this podcast,please tell a few friends about
it.
And if you want to support us,scroll down to the bottom of the
(50:35):
show notes page and click on thelink that says support the show.
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr.
Thanks for being curious aboutwhat it's like.
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