March 20, 2024 • 42 mins
Lots of people say they “like to travel”... but most probably can’t claim they're “travel addicts.” Karen Gershowitz has earned that title by visiting more than 95 countries–many of them numerous times! She’s worked her career around traveling, and is now a travel writer. She has also published two books about her travels. In this episode Karen shares tales from her adventures and gives tips all travelers can use to have authentic experiences--from taking public transportation, to eating at communal tables with locals, to the benefits of "getting lost."
In this episode:
01:50--How and why Karen found a career to support her travel habit
02:48--The genesis and growth of Karen's love of travel
04:47--Tips for finding your way in a new town (take public transportation, sit at communal tables)
08:37--The beauty of allowing yourself to get lost and pivoting when things go "wrong"
12:40--Karen's thoughts on planned itineraries vs. being spur of the moment
15:08--Plan your trip around what you love (food, sports, art, history, etc.)
17:39--Be curious about a place and about people
18:39--Test case: planning a trip for a fictitious traveler
24:39--Tips for traveling in non-English-speaking countries
26:30--Thoughts on traveling solo vs. with friends vs. with groups
27:55--Journaling while traveling
30:30--Places Karen would like to visit, and places she never wants to return
34:42--Tips for dealing with jet lag
37:20--Becoming a travel writer (books and articles)
Want to know more about Karen?
- Find links to all of her books and articles at her website: https://karengershowitz.com/home/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen (00:08):
I love having new experiences and I'm learning all
the time and I'm just making allthese interesting connections
and, it's an addiction.
It is a true addiction.
And if I don't travel for awhile, I start to go really
crazy.
Elizabeth (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to "What It's Like To..." The
podcast that lets you walk insomeone else's shoes and live
vicariously through their uniqueexperiences.
I'm your host, journalistElizabeth Pearson Garr.
And each episode, I'll be askinga new interviewee all the what,
why, when, and wheres of howthey do what they do.
If they can do it, so can you.
(00:51):
Lots of us may say we like totravel, but most of us probably
can't claim we are traveladdicts.
My guest today, KarenGershowitz, has earned that
title by visiting more than 95countries, many of them numerous
times.
She's worked her career aroundtraveling and is now a travel
journalist.
She has also published two booksabout her travels.
(01:12):
Karen, I seem to have caught youat a rare moment at home.
Welcome to my podcast.
Karen (01:17):
Yeah, if it had been last month, you would not have gotten
me at home.
Elizabeth (01:21):
Well, I'm glad to meet you.
Thank you for being here.
I think I know your type becausemy dad, I think, we could call a
travel addict.
Thinking about him and otherpeople that are maybe of this
sort, I think people areinterested in travel and travel
excessively for various reasons.
Maybe get into it because theylove history, culture, or maybe
(01:44):
they love studying languages.
What really got you interested?
Karen (01:47):
Culture, for sure.
I love being new places, seeingnew things, interacting with
people.
My career where I actuallyearned money, was as a marketing
person, but mainly for strategy.
So I interviewed loads and loadsand loads of people and I love
talking with people.
(02:08):
And so going to a place thatI've never been to before and
interacting with people onwhatever level is something that
I truly, truly enjoy.
Whether it's across the globe,or it's another part of the U.S.
Because people are quitedifferent in different places.
Elizabeth (02:23):
Yeah, I thought that was fascinating when I was doing
a little research about you.
You chose that careerdeliberately, didn't you?
So it would allow you to traveland afford you this opportunity
to indulge your desire totravel.
Karen (02:37):
Yeah.
I often say that I'm an addictand I don't want a cure.
Um.
Elizabeth (02:44):
You're an addict in all the best ways.
Karen (02:46):
In all the best ways.
But I started traveling very,very young.
When I was 17, I moved by myselfto Europe and ended up spending
three years there.
Had a fabulous time and that waswhen things were really cheap if
you were a student.
So I traveled all over Europe.
Then I came back to the U.S.
for my undergraduate degree,which was in ceramics of all
(03:08):
things.
And, the first summer that I wasthere, I managed to finagle the
school into sending me to Japan,which is a long story, but I
wanted to see all these ceramicsthat the professor was talking
about, so I went off to Japanfor six weeks and loved it.
And after that, I was so totallyhooked.
(03:30):
I had to figure out a way thatsomebody else was going to pay
for the travel, quite frankly.
Elizabeth (03:35):
Yeah, it's not cheap.
Karen (03:36):
So I was looking for a career that would allow me to do
all of this traveling without itbeing a burden, without it
being, you know, just incrediblydifficult, and I worked my way
up over a period of about, five,six years to having good
positions within the world ofmarketing, but especially
(03:57):
working with internationalclients.
And within 10 years, that waswhat I was doing.
Elizabeth (04:02):
And then when you find yourself in a foreign
country.
Actually, I guess it could bedomestically too, travel is
travel.
You could go to the state nextdoor and it could be completely
fascinating.
But when you find yourselfsomewhere new, you have some
great strategies of being ableto dive in and open yourself up
to these new opportunities.
One that I read is (04:23):
Take public transportation.
Can you go into some of theseideas that you have?
Because I think often what canhappen is we could almost have
the same experience we have athome across the world, you know,
eat at McDonald's in Paris ifyou want to, and it can not even
be that different, but you haveways that we can really
(04:43):
experience different cultures in
Karen (04:46):
depth.
I'd be happy to give you a fewof my, the things that, and it's
funny'cause I teach a class ontravel and it's largely about
how do you find your way in aplace that you don't know at all
and really interact with people.
So one of them is taking publictransportation, but not
necessarily because you want togo to a destination.
What you do is you take publictransportation with no idea
(05:09):
where it's going particularly,and if you see something
interesting, get off.
Works better with buses thansubways clearly, but on a bus,
just take it and get offrandomly and walk around the
neighborhood, sit at a cafe.
And if you're in a country thatthey don't speak English, bring
a book with you that you can bereading that has a title
(05:29):
prominently in English on it,but don't look so intently at
the book that nobody wants todisturb you.
So you kind of look down, youlook up, look around a little
bit.
People will come over becausethey want to practice English.
And if you go to a universitycampus, I can guarantee people
will come over, because they allwant to practice.
(05:49):
Go to a restaurant that has acommunal table.
And sit at a communal table.
People would not be sittingthere unless they were willing
to chat.
And what I discovered was thatif you go on to Yelp or some of
these other places, you can lookfor listings of restaurants that
have communal tables.
So that's a great way to meetpeople.
Elizabeth (06:08):
Great tips.
Do you think it takes a certainkind of person, though?
I mean, would you consideryourself a real extrovert?
Someone who's willing to justmeet people wherever you are and
step out of your comfort zone?
Karen (06:20):
It isn't out of my comfort zone because of my
career.
I think before my career, itwould have been.
But because I was talking topeople who I never would have
met in unlikely places, forunlikely reasons, and I had to
be the one who was starting theconversation, I got very good at
it.
I'll tell you a very funnystory.
(06:41):
I said to a friend, I can makeanyone talk about anything for
an hour.
And she said, I'll make you abet.
I bet you can't.
I said, okay, what are webetting for?
Well, we're betting for dinner.
I said, you're on.
Her topic was canned peas.
After a half an hour, she gaveup and said, Oh my God, you're
right.
You could make me talk for threehours about this.
Elizabeth (07:05):
I love this bet.
I think we should all challengesomeone to have a conversation
with someone because it reallyis a wonderful skill to have.
I was just at a dinner the othernight, my husband and I got
split up.
It was assigned seating.
And he said, Oh, no, because I'musually the talker in the two.
And I said, you need to know howto talk to people you don't
(07:25):
know.
Karen (07:26):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's a really good skill tohave.
And it's fun.
Once you get over the, Oh, no,what are they going to think?
People are fun and they'll tellyou fun stories.
And if they know you'retraveling and you say, You're a
local, I know what's in theguidebooks.
Tell me something to do that'snot in the guidebooks.
(07:47):
They will.
Oh, well, have you heard aboutthis?
Well, what do you like?
Oh, I like gardens.
Oh, there's this great gardenthat only the locals know and
they'll draw me maps.
And, it's kind of amazing whatpeople are happy to share with
you.
Elizabeth (07:59):
Probably, it's one of those things that the more you
do it, the more confidence youhave to keep doing it and the
more fun you have doing it.
Like, maybe the first time,whether you're alone or you're
with a partner or a friend orsomething, you're maybe a little
more, leery of, Oh, is thisgoing to work?
Do I feel uncomfortable, butthen you have some good
experiences, chatting with somestrangers, them showing you a
(08:22):
local park or a local pub orwhatever it might be.
Then I can imagine the next timeyou just feel like this is such
a fun way to go about it ratherthan looking at my Michelin
guide and checking off the topfive sites that I'm supposed to
see.
Karen (08:36):
Exactly.
And the idea of getting lost isa really good one.
I mean, even if I'm driving, andthis is a fairly recent example.
I was up in Vancouver and onVancouver Island and I'd been
there, but I'd been to the lowerhalf of it, but I'd never been
to the Northern part.
And I was visiting someone andwhen I was going back South, I
said, you know, I've got a bunchof time.
(08:57):
I'm just going to take all backroads.
I'm not going to use GPS, I'mjust going to take back roads,
and I have a reasonably goodsense of direction.
And so I started driving, and Isaw a sign for a woodworker.
And I thought, oh, that'sinteresting, I'll go see if I
can find the woodworker.
And then I see another sign fora potter.
And then I see another sign fora weaver.
Well, it turns out this is amountain with dirt roads.
(09:19):
It's not in anybody's guidebook,I guarantee it.
But it was all craftspeople.
And I found the woodworker,found the potter, found the
weaver.
They said, Oh, well, you got togo visit my friend so and so.
You'd love their studio.
And I spent an entire afternoonwith all these craftspeople,
which I love.
And it was something I wouldnever have found except that I
(09:41):
just said, I'm just going towander.
And whatever piques my interest,I'm going to follow.
Elizabeth (09:47):
And I think sometimes these literally off the beaten
track escapades that we have endup being the best experiences
and stories that we end uphaving, even when things go
"wrong." They're the most funsort of family tales that we
have.
This last summer we were inWales.
And the only reason we ended upthere, because we had a few
(10:07):
overnights in London.
And I asked my friend who'sEnglish, where should we go
that's not London per se.
We don't want to do whateveryone does.
And she said, Oh, well, Britsoften holiday in Wales.
So let me tell you a few placesto go.
I said okay.
Well, let's holiday like a Brit.
So we went to this area where wewere the only Americans.
People would say, Oh, youraccents are so exotic and all
(10:30):
this.
My kids still talk about how wewere on these country lanes
where we kept getting lost.
And, it was almost more fun thanbeing in London where we ran
into all these Americans and wewere sort of among the hordes.
Because we didn't know what wewere doing and we were just
bumbling around and it was justreally memorable.
Karen (10:50):
Oh yeah.
Those are some of the besttimes.
And thing you were saying, whenthings go wrong.
Recently, I was on a writingassignment in Louisiana, and
they had arranged a whole bunchof things for me to do.
And one day I was supposed to betaking a tour.
Now mind you, I didn'tparticularly want to go on it,
because I've been in New Orleansmany times.
But they had set it up.
So I was going to do this.
Well, I took an Uber cause I wasquite a distance and the traffic
(11:14):
totally stopped, couldn't getthere.
The Uber driver talks to apolice woman who's standing
there.
And she said, Oh, well, there'sa parade.
It's a Christmas parade.
Well, can we get to such andsuch a place?
And she said, not really, butwalk it.
It's not very far.
So I got out and I started towalk.
And, when I got there, there'snothing going on and I call the
(11:35):
number and they say, Oh, didn'tyou get the note that you have
to meet us over in this place asopposed to there?
I said, no, I never got anyinformation back and there's no
way I can get there on time.
I said, sorry, but I won't bethere.
So I watched the Christmasparade, which was a lot more
fun, I think, than the tourwould have been.
They had all the bands and thebands are fabulous in New
(11:56):
Orleans.
Ahh--fabulous.
But they also had the RollingElvi, which is a group of Elvis
impersonators, were hilarious,and it was kind of a combination
of Mardi Gras.
They were throwing the beads andthrowing the cups, and part
Macy's Thanksgiving Paradebecause they had these
phenomenal floats and it waspure New Orleans and it was such
(12:20):
fun and you know, something hadgone wrong.
I could have gotten all upsetbecause I couldn't get to where
I was supposed to be.
Or I could just enjoy the factthat there was something
absolutely fabulous happeningright in front of me.
And so, of course, I did thething that was right in front of
me.
Elizabeth (12:35):
So that makes me think, do you tend to not plan
your trips a lot?
Do you not have a detaileditinerary, day to day?
I'm going to do this in themorning and this in the
afternoon.
Karen (12:45):
Not at all.
Elizabeth (12:47):
Not at all.
Open schedules.
Karen (12:48):
Not at all.
I do it all on the spur of themoment.
If it's a rainy day, I'll go toa museum.
If it's a nice day, I'll dosomething outside.
I am not stuck to any scheduleunless I know that it's
something I absolutely want todo and that I may not get in
unless I do it.
I was in Milan and I wanted tosee the very, very famous
painting of the last supper andit is almost impossible to get
(13:12):
into it.
We made the reservations a monthin advance.
I was with a friend and that wassomething that, no matter what
was happening, I needed to bethere at a particular time.
But that was only because Iwanted to see that specific
thing.
But typically I don't do it atall.
I just show up and whateverhappens happens.
I'm very much into whimsy and Ilook at the local papers.
(13:35):
I look at Time Out in whateverplace I'm going to, if it's a
city, because they publish thatall over the globe.
I'll look at Meetup sometimes.
Sometimes there are great Meetupgroups, and that's going to be
locals as opposed to foreigners.
And it's just a wonderful way toconnect with people.
I like going to art museums.
I like going to gardens.
I like going to theater,concerts.
(13:56):
But most of all, I love talkingwith people and I love going out
and trying interesting food.
Elizabeth (14:01):
And you also suggest, I believe, you can get involved
in an activity.
For example, if you want tolearn how to make a certain dish
in the area or take an art classor something that you're
interested in.
Go to a concert or a sportingactivity or something, I guess
it's all about getting involvedin the local culture or the
atmosphere of the local region.
Karen (14:23):
I've taken cooking classes all around the globe.
I just love it.
And typically, if you take acooking class, they will take
you to a market.
And then you've got somebody whocan say, Oh, this is how we use
this.
And this is how we prepare this.
And that's just great fun.
And they also tell you what's afake, for example, saffron in
(14:43):
many countries is not saffronbecause saffron is very
expensive.
And what they'll do is they'lltake another thing that looks
like saffron and dye it to lookthat color.
Elizabeth (14:54):
Wow.
Karen (14:56):
And it's very common.
And I was told, do not buysaffron unless you are
absolutely sure that you're in aplace that's selling you the
legitimate thing.
Elizabeth (15:06):
Good tip.
Karen (15:07):
Yeah.
But I often say to people,particularly people who want to
travel by themselves and havenever done it plan the trip
around anything that you loveand it doesn't matter much what
it is.
If you're into sports, go tosports events, go to sports
events that you know nothingabout, find someone and ask them
a lot of questions.
You will connect.
If you are into food, take acooking class, take an art
(15:31):
lesson, take a music lesson.
If you're into history, takewalking tours, there are free
walking tours all around theworld and you give the guide a
tip and you will learn morehistory, but there'll also be a
group of people there and veryoften locals.
I live in New York and livedhere my whole life and I've
taken walking tours in New Yorkbecause it's an area of the city
(15:52):
that I just don't know verywell.
Also, I love street art.
In New York City, there is aphenomenal amount of street art
and some of it is knock yoursocks off, it's gorgeous.
And there are areas of the city,once I started researching it,
that there are blocks and blocksand blocks of murals.
I didn't even know they existed.
(16:13):
So I was discovering my own cityin a way that I had not known
it.
Elizabeth (16:18):
Well, it's a great city to get to discover.
But every place has things todiscover that we don't know
about.
Every place does.
Karen (16:25):
I have a friend who lives in Fort Collins in Colorado, and
I was there for a few days andsaid, well, what do you want to
do?
I said, well, I want to go up toCheyenne, which is only about an
hour drive.
Cheyenne, why would you want togo to Cheyenne?
I mean, literally, that was theanswer.
I said, because I read that theyhave murals.
And I want to go see the murals.
Well, we went up there.
We had the best day.
(16:46):
In addition to the murals, theyhad like 10 foot high cowboy
boots that were painted and theywere all over the city.
We went to a restaurant that thefood and the atmosphere was
beyond great.
And the people were friendly andwe started chatting with the
people at one table who said,Oh, well, you got to go see this
and there's a great botanicalgarden.
And at the other table, I goteverybody around us talking.
(17:09):
And, my friend was going, Oh, myGod, I never knew And that night
we had dinner and friends ofhers came over.
Well, what did you do today?
We went to Cheyenne.
Why did you go to Cheyenne?
Elizabeth (17:20):
And now your friend has an answer to"Why Cheyenne?"
Karen (17:22):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And she went back and took them.
Elizabeth (17:27):
You clearly have a special gift for being open and
getting people talking, but Ithink we all could do that.
If we all just sort of, tookthat step to try to be curious.
Karen (17:39):
Yeah.
It's the curiosity that makesthe difference.
It really is.
Instead of assuming that there'snothing in a place.
Assume that there is somethingwaiting to be discovered, and
that you just have to figure outhow to do it.
Elizabeth (17:52):
It's almost approaching travel from a
different way, rather than tellme what I need to see, as in,
okay, internet or guidebooks,give me the list and tell me
what I need to see.
It's almost like, I'm here andI'm here to explore what you
have.
It's kind of turning it on itshead.
Karen (18:12):
Exactly.
Now, I will say, there arecertain things, I'm going to
Spain in May, and I'm going fora conference, but while I'm
there, I'm taking a detourbecause I have never seen the
Whitney Museum in Bilbao and Iwant to see it.
So it's not that I don't go seethings, because I will, but I
(18:33):
can guarantee that when I'm inBilbao, I will discover things
beyond the museum.
Elizabeth (18:39):
So can we do a little sort of test case?
I want to see how you would plana trip.
Let's say my name is Julia and Ilove food and cooking and I'm
going to go to Italy.
I'm going to go to Tuscany.
And I'll be there for 10 days orsomething.
We don't need to go into greatdetail, but how much sort of pre
planning would you do?
I mean, you clearly need to do alittle bit of research about
(19:03):
where you're going to stay and afew restaurant reservations and
whatnot.
What recommendations would yougive to Julia planning her trip?
It depends on what time of yearit is.
If it is off season, you don'tneed to make reservations for
anything.
If it's during the height of theseason, you better make a
reservation for every night.
Ah, such an important point.
(19:24):
Yes.
Karen (19:25):
Off season, I would not make any reservations.
I'd get there, start talking topeople and have them tell me
where to go.
Elizabeth (19:31):
Oh, what a lovely experience that would be.
I mean, I have kids, so I'malways traveling in the high
season of things, but to be ableto travel like in October or
February or something would beamazing.
Karen (19:45):
But if you are traveling in season, I would start looking
up restaurants and trying tofind places that maybe don't
have the most reviews and themost stars.
But when you look at it, and youlook at the menu.
The menu is offering you thingsthat are not run of the mill.
And you can see the pictures ofthe restaurant.
And I mean, there's so muchinformation available.
(20:08):
You can almost go intoinformation overload.
Elizabeth (20:10):
That's true.
Karen (20:11):
And I would not make myself nuts over that.
I would just pick two or threeplaces.
I might look into cookingschools and your kids would
probably love it too, dependingupon their ages, but I've taken
friends who don't like to cookand they've loved going to
cooking classes because it'sjust fun.
If it's hands on, that's theother thing.
(20:32):
I always check to make sure thatit's hands on.
I don't want to just watchsomeone doing it.
Elizabeth (20:36):
Oh, right.
And it's so practical.
Even if you don't feel like youlike cooking, you can always
take it home and use it.
Karen (20:42):
Right, and usually you get to eat a great meal
afterwards that you've prepared,so that's something I would do.
I would find out what else Juliais interested in, and I would
pick a hotel that's near wherethe places are that she's
interested in, as opposed topicking the best hotel, because
it's the best hotel.
And I always look for a hotelthat's near public
(21:03):
transportation.
I don't want to have to walk 10blocks to a Metro or call an
Uber every time I want to gosomewhere.
And I like taking publictransportation.
So I want to have the ability towalk a few blocks and take a
bus, a Metro, a tram, whateverit is that's in the city.
And I would also plan forpossibly day trips out of the
(21:23):
city.
I've taken day tours, I don'tobject to them.
And if it's going somewherethat's hard to get to,
absolutely.
Find somewhere that's out in thecountry that has something that
would be of interest to you.
If you're into history, go to acastle.
If you're into nature, find aplace that's gorgeous scenery
and take a day trip.
But it would be pretty loose.
It would not be (21:43):
this is what you're doing every single day,
every single moment.
Elizabeth (21:48):
I think people can get overwhelmed.
First of all, there's so muchinformation that we can do
research ahead of time.
And also there's this feelingsometimes like I have to see it
all, to see the historicalthings and the architecture and
the art and the food and theculture.
And there's just so much andI've got to squeeze it into this
trip.
And I think the reality is thatthat's impossible.
(22:09):
And it's exhausting, And it'sexhausting.
So it's not fun.
Karen (22:12):
It is not fun doing it that way.
You really want to plan itaround what you care about.
If you're not into art, why areyou going to an art museum?
I'm not into sports.
Why would I go to a sportsevent?
Seriously.
I'm not into going to a brewery.
I hate beer.
I'll not go to a brewery.
I don't care if it's the bestbrewery on the planet.
I'm not going!
Elizabeth (22:34):
Don't waste your time, your money, your effort.
Karen (22:37):
Exactly, on the things that you don't care about and
focus on what is going to makeyou happy.
And the thing is, you alsodiscover things.
Now, this was quite a number ofyears ago, but I was in Prague,
and I love puppets.
I've always loved puppets.
And I found out that Prague islike the home for marionettes.
It has fabulous marionettes, andyou see them selling them on the
(22:57):
streets.
And I went into the touristbureau and I said, are there any
puppet shows?
She said, Oh, yes, they do theMarriage of Figaro with puppets
and live music and live singers,but it's the puppets who are
doing the acting with thesingers and the music behind
them.
It was one of the best thingsI've ever seen.
And I would never have known.
(23:18):
And if I had been scheduled todo this and this and this and
this, I would never have seenthis.
And again, it's really, what doI care about?
What's fun?
What is it that's going to makeme feel like I'm having a really
authentic experience aboutsomething that I care about?
Elizabeth (23:34):
That's a great word.
An authentic experience.
That is why we want to travel,right?
Like I mentioned earlier, Ithrew in, McDonald's in Paris.
Really, if we're just shoppingat stores that we could go
shopping at in an American mallin a different city, eating
American food, kind of what'sthe point?
What are we doing?
We want something authentic in adifferent place.
Karen (23:53):
Absolutely.
And, the other thing is, if youget tired during the middle of
the day, don't feel guilty aboutgoing back to your hotel and
sleeping for an hour or readingfor an hour or just sitting over
a cup of coffee for an hour.
You don't have to be moving allof the time.
Mind you, if you're going tohave a cup of coffee, go to a
cafe, sit outside, and peoplewatch.
(24:14):
I do that a lot.
I love people watching.
You don't have to be movingconstantly.
It's really okay not to.
And people sometimes need thepermission to just go have a
good time.
Elizabeth (24:26):
What are your tips for being in
non-English-speaking countries?
You mentioned sometimes bringinga book, and being near a
university, but if you're havinglanguage barriers, do you
sometimes hire a translator ordo you go on tour...?
Karen (24:39):
Yeah, I might go on a tour.
The other thing is one of thethings that I do always make
sure when I'm booking a hotel isthat there are people that are
English-speaking on the staff ofthe hotel, always, because I can
talk with them and say, Here'sthe kinds of things I'm
interested in.
Can you give me somesuggestions?
How do I get there?
And Google Translate is aGodsend.
Elizabeth (25:01):
That is true.
But more of a modern travelconvenience.
Take advantage of it.
For years, I was travelingwithout all of this stuff.
And, now that I have it, Iwouldn't go back for anything
because it really is a help.
You don't want to be constantlylooking at your phone, but there
are situations where it reallyis helpful.
The other thing for anybodywho's really nervous about it,
(25:24):
and it's something that I stilldo, you check into the hotel,
the first thing you do is youget a business card from the
hotel that's got their addressand phone number on it so that
if you get really lost, you takea taxi and you show them the
card.
That's your home base.
Karen (25:37):
That's your home base.
And, I've had to do that on afew occasions.
I've gotten myself lost and I'vegot a good sense of direction
and I've gotten myself lost.
But, most places, it would behard for you to, just casually
wander into a terrible placebecause they're not usually
adjacent to the places thatyou'd be interested in going.
I've only been stolen from oncein my life.
(25:58):
And it was in Japan of allplaces.
Elizabeth (26:01):
I was pickpocketed.
So now, apart from everythingelse, I have a bag that has
zippers on it with a little lockon it.
And that's what I use when I'mtraveling.
Like a fanny pack kind of bag,or what do you carry around in
the daytime?
Karen (26:13):
Just happen to have it with me, right here.
Elizabeth (26:16):
Sort of an over the shoulder type bag.
Karen (26:18):
Over the shoulder, and it's got a little hook, and you
can lock it.
And then it's got a pocket inthe back that's right next to
your body.
Elizabeth (26:26):
Do you tend to travel mostly solo or with other
people?
Karen (26:30):
Sometimes I travel by myself.
I have a couple of good friendswho I travel with.
I have occasionally gone ontours because it's somewhere
like India, where I really didnot want to go out on my own and
China.
Particularly China, because noone speaks English and, I can
remember going with the group--it was a small group.
There were 10 of us and we wentinto the train station.
(26:53):
And if I had not been with thatgroup, my head would have been
spinning.
It was crowds of people like Ihave never seen.
No signage in anything exceptChinese.
And I was lost.
And I still remember the guidesaying, when we enter the train
station, we're going to be likesticky rice.
Don't go away from the group.
We'll never find you again.
(27:14):
And she was right.
Follow the directions, youAmericans.
Follow the directions.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, we walked in there andeverybody saw exactly what she
was talking about.
So it really varies.
It varies on where I'm going,what I'm going to be doing.
I do a lot of solo travel.
I happen to like solo travel,which always surprises people.
But think about it.
(27:35):
If you're sitting by yourself,it's much more likely that
someone will come up to you.
If you're sitting with someoneelse, you're part of a pairing
and they're far less likely.
That's when you really have toinitiate conversations.
I still can do it and I do itall the time, but traveling by
myself, it's never an issue.
The other thing is that everysingle morning when I travel, I
(27:57):
write for an hour, and I've beenwriting a travel journal.
My mother got me started when Iwas eight years old.
We went to Florida to visit mygrandmother and she said, you're
not going to remember what wedid.
So I want you to write down whatyou did and draw pictures and
whatever.
And I did.
And I've been doing it eversince.
And she encouraged me my wholechildhood And every trip I have
taken-- not for business, butfor fun, I have a journal from.
(28:21):
and so, in my book, in bothbooks, I go back to years ago
and people say, how do youremember all these details?
And I say, you want to see myjournal?
Elizabeth (28:30):
I journal also, I haven't as much recently, but I
used to do the same thing.
Sometimes it feels like a choreat the time.
I don't know if you still feelthat way.
If the hour sometimes feelslike, oh, I'd rather be doing
something else, but it's atreasure to have it.
And once you get into it, itfeels fun.
If you're a writer, it does feelfun.
Karen (28:48):
Yeah, I really enjoy it.
When I'm traveling, it is tocapture whatever it was that I
did the previous day.
And it's not I did this.
I did that.
That's not interesting.
It's, what did I experience?
How did I feel about it?
What happened that was reallyunusual?
What did I notice in a placethat I've been to?
I mean, I lived in London forthree years, so what did I
(29:10):
notice that I didn't notice thelast time I was here?
So it's that kind of thing,which is a very different kind
of travel journal than mostpeople do.
It's not a travelogue.
It's really an experientialthing.
And I think that's what travelreally does.
Like I mentioned, my parentsstill travel a lot.
They're in their eighties andthey love it.
It's my father's favorite thing.
(29:31):
And I've heard people say, whydo people travel?
You can just watch things onYouTube or watch it on TV.
You can see the Great Wall ofChina.
You can see Sydney Opera Houseand all this, but when you're in
a place, you can never replicatethat, the smells, the taste,
talking to the person on thestreet corner, in the cafe.
You can never replicate thatexperience by watching
(29:53):
something.
So it's an experience and Ithink for someone like you, you
need to keep quenching thatthirst.
I am insatiable as they say! AndI hope I am forever.
For me, it's what makes lifereally interesting.
I love having new experiencesand I'm learning all the time
and I'm just making all theseinteresting connections and,
(30:15):
it's an addiction.
It is a true addiction.
And if I don't travel for awhile, I start to go really
crazy.
Elizabeth (30:21):
Where are some places that you've been that you can't
wait to go back to?
And then where are some placesthat you haven't been that are
still on your list that you'dlike to go?
Karen (30:30):
Well, I'll start with the haven't been to and want to go
to.
Now I give away my age.
During the middle of thepandemic, I turned 70.
And I had planned to go to theSouth Pacific Islands.
I've wanted to do that foryears, not to Tahiti,
particularly, but some of thesmaller islands like Rarotonga
and the Cook Islands.
That didn't happen, but I wouldreally like to go.
(30:52):
So that's definitely on my list.
I would very much like to go toGhana and I will do that within
the next year or two I'm sure.
I'm going to cross one of themoff this year.
I have never seen the northernlights, although I have tried 3
or 4 times, but this year I'mgoing to do it.
I'm going to Norway on a cruisethrough the fjords and you can
(31:13):
go to sleep and they leavesomeone out on the deck to watch
for the northern lights.
When they see them, they wakeeveryone up.
And you get to be in Norway.
And you get to be in Norway.
Yeah.
I want to go to Malta.
People have said it's absolutelyfascinating.
I have not been there.
I was in Dubai and Abu Dhabi,but I would like to go back to
(31:34):
the UAE and see some of theother countries because I hear
tell that they're quitefascinating.
And each one's very differentfrom the other.
And I'd like to go frankly, backto Dubai.
I was there about seven yearsago, maybe, and it's changing so
fast.
I'm sure it's going to look likea different city when I go back.
And the same thing with AbuDhabi.
(31:54):
I was there 2 days after theLouvre Abu Dhabi opened, which
is one of the most gorgeousmuseums I've ever been in, the
architecture is phenomenal andthe exhibits are just amazing.
They've set it up in a veryunusual way.
Instead of showing you likeFrench art, Asian art, what
they've done is arrangedeverything chronologically.
(32:15):
So what was happening in the1500s all around the globe?
Elizabeth (32:19):
Oh, how interesting.
Karen (32:20):
Which is a really interesting concept.
And I'd never seen anything likeit.
And it was wonderful.
So I'd like to go back therebecause there's like 3 or 4
museums that are opening there.
So I would like to go back thereas well as Oman and some of the
other countries.
And then where I would love togo back to, I used to go to
Crete, Greece every other summerfor many years with a group of
(32:42):
friends.
We rented a house and it wasreally magical.
And I have not been back toCrete probably in 20 years, and
that's somewhere I would reallylike to go back to just to see.
I'm a little afraid of what itmight be like.
Because I'm afraid it might havegotten built up.
Another place that I definitelywant to go back to is South
Korea.
I was there and loved it, but Ididn't get to spend enough time.
(33:04):
I really only saw Seoul and oneother town, but I'd like to go
back and really explore SouthKorea.
And then places that I don'tever want to go back to.
I don't want to go back to Bali.
I've been in Bali three times.
The first time I was there itwas totally unspoiled.
It was amazing.
The second time I was there, itwas a little more built up.
The third time I was there, Ithought that I was in Australia.
(33:26):
There were so many Aussiesthere.
And it had lost a lot ofcharacter.
And that's even when you wentaway from the resort areas.
And that was more than a littledisturbing.
So I don't want to go back.
I want to have this pristineimage of it in my mind.
Same thing with Venice.
I was in Venice when it wasnot-- I mean, they're now
talking about charging people togo in if you go in for the day.
(33:49):
And I understand why from whatI've read about it.
But I was there 40 years agowhen that was not what it was
like.
And you could just wanderaround.
It was magical.
And so I don't want to go backthere.
Because it's going to ruin myimage.
Elizabeth (34:04):
Yeah, I can understand that.
Karen (34:06):
So, you know, there's both ends of the spectrum.
And lots of places-- like LondonI go back to all the time
because I have a lot of friendsthere.
And if I'm going somewhere elsein Europe, I always stop off in
London just to go see myfriends.
But somebody said to metomorrow, let's go to I don't
know, Uganda, I'd say, okay,let's go.
Elizabeth (34:25):
You're a yes woman when it comes to travel.
Karen (34:27):
Oh, yeah.
I'm the one that all my friends,if they want to go somewhere,
and they want somebody to gowith them, So, how would you
feel about?
And my usual question is, when?
Elizabeth (34:36):
Can I fit it into my schedule?
Karen (34:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Elizabeth (34:40):
So do you have any tips for jet lag?
Karen (34:42):
First thing you do when you get on the plane is change
your watch to the time of whatit's going to be when you
arrive.
Then, behave as though that'sthe actual time it is.
So, if it's supposed to bebreakfast time, eat breakfast,
and then stay up.
If it's evening, even if you'renot tired, try and take a nap.
On the
Elizabeth (35:02):
plane.
In the little cramped seat inthe
Karen (35:05):
plane.
You bet.
Do whatever you can so that youare on that time zone when you
arrive.
A lot of people swear bymelatonin, never done anything
for me.
If I'm going to Europe, it'salmost always a night flight.
I get there in the morning, dropmy bags off at the hotel.
And typically they won't let youcheck in until like two o'clock.
(35:26):
So I wander around a little bitin a fog.
Two o'clock I go back to thehotel, sleep for two or three
hours.
And then get up and have it beevening, have dinner, do
something, and then go back tosleep.
And that usually works.
Within a day, I'm okay.
Coming back the other direction,I have a worse time.
Going east is easy, going westis more difficult, because you
(35:48):
have a very long day.
And, I end up waking up in themiddle of the night every time.
Every time.
Elizabeth (35:55):
So even a seasoned, very extra seasoned traveler has
a hard time with jet lag.
I guess that's a littlereassuring.
Karen (36:02):
Yes.
Elizabeth (36:03):
I mean, I'm sorry to hear it, but it happens to all
of us.
It happens to everyone.
It's physiological and you dowhatever you can to just make it
as normal as possible.
Karen (36:13):
That's all you can do.
Elizabeth (36:14):
The long plane rides and the jet lag is a fair price
to pay for getting to experiencethe different cultures.
Karen (36:21):
And if you're going really around the globe.
Now this is going to tell youhow much of an insane traveler I
am, but these were mostlybusiness trips.
I've been to Australia eighttimes.
Three for fun and five werebusiness trips and talk about
screwing up your internal clock.
That's the one that is lethal.
For two or three days, I'mwalking around in both
(36:43):
directions, going, where am I?
What time is it?
And made the huge mistake on onetrip when I got home, I thought,
Oh, I'll go for groceries.
I'm okay.
And I backed out right intoanother car.
Elizabeth (36:55):
Oh, understandable.
Karen (36:58):
Yeah.
And that was when I said, neverdrive again, right when you get
back and you're jet lagged,never ever.
Elizabeth (37:05):
Do not operate heavy machinery.
Karen (37:08):
Exactly.
Elizabeth (37:09):
So now you're a travel writer.
Was that a difficult pivot?
Clearly the subject matter comeseasily, but is it hard to, get
published and was it hard towrite the books?
Karen (37:20):
The first book took a long time.
Because I was writing it while Iwas still working and it was in
bits and pieces and fits andstarts.
The second book I wrote so fast,I couldn't believe.
And I really couldn't believehow fast I wrote it just was
easy.
And I'm writing the third onenow.
And that one's also going to bepretty easy.
But getting published, finding apublisher is not easy.
(37:43):
It's a chore.
It takes a long time and it'sdifficult.
And then the really hard part ismarketing it.
And my career was in marketingand I thought, oh, that won't be
a problem.
Lo and behold, I discovered thatit is a huge amount of work, a
massive amount of work, and thatcame as kind of a shock, and a
lot of it I like, but some of itis just tedious work.
The first book is"Travel Mania: Stories of Wanderlust," and the (38:07):
undefined
thing about these books, is youdon't have to read them in
order.
I've had people say to me, oh,well, I looked up all the places
that I've been to to see whatyour experiences were like
compared to what my experienceswere like.
And I've had other people say,yeah, I read all the places that
I've always wanted to go to andhave never been to.
(38:28):
Then I skip around and then I goback and I read the ones I
haven't read.
Because they're interesting, butI focused on the ones I was
really interested in.
The second book, can be read thesame way, is called, it's got a
very long title,"Wanderlust,Extraordinary People, Quirky
Places, and Curious Cuisine."And that one, literally came out
of people saying to me, you havesuch great stories about people
(38:51):
you've met, and you don'temphasize that in the book.
Quirky places, yes, but I knowyou've been to even quirkier
places than are in the firstbook, which is certainly true.
And we know you love food, writeabout food.
Elizabeth (39:03):
So it sounds like this maybe came from your
journals, some of these stories?
Karen (39:05):
Yeah, a lot of that.
Yeah.
A lot of them.
And it was funny because Ithought, well, I'll just write
the one book and then everybodykept saying, no, no, no, no, no,
you got to write more stories.
And I made a list of, okay, sowhat could I tell a story about
and realized I have enough forthree or four books and every
time I travel I get more.
And then what happened after thefirst book was published, I
actually had an onlinepublication contact me and say
(39:29):
would I write a story for them,which I did.
And I was contacted by anotherplace, and they've published a
number of my stories.
And so now I've got peoplecoming to me asking me to write.
Fantastic.
Yeah, it's taken a while.
And if you had told me 5 or 10years ago that this would
happen, I would not havebelieved you.
(39:50):
But I put in the work, I reallyput in the work.
And, the books are fun andpeople have read them and go,
oh, my God, she's got greatstories and she can write, which
is a good combination.
And, so it's beginning to reallypay off.
Elizabeth (40:04):
Congratulations.
Karen (40:05):
Thank you.
Elizabeth (40:06):
Thank you so much.
This has been really fun for me.
I've sort of been an armchairtraveler here through you and
can't wait to start travelingagain.
Karen (40:16):
It's been great fun talking with you.
Karen is certainly aninspiration, having figured out
a way to combine her passion andher work.
Here are some of my takeawaysfrom our conversation.
Number one (40:30):
Find a job that lets you do what you love.
Two.
Look for opportunities to openyour world and get to know new
people.
Take public transportation.
Sit at a communal table.
Let yourself get lost every nowand then.
Three.
When things seemingly go wrong,they often turn out to be the
most fun or memorableexperiences on a trip or in
(40:53):
life.
Four.
Be curious.
Instead of assuming that thereisn't anything in a particular
town, assume that there'ssomething waiting to be
discovered and that you justhave to figure out how to do it.
Five.
"Dream jobs", like travelwriter, don't just fall into
your lap.
You still have to be qualified,and work hard to get them.
(41:14):
And finally, number Six.
You don't have to do everything,on a trip or in your everyday
life.
Strive for an authenticexperience.
Do what makes you happy.
My thanks to Karen Gershowitzfor talking travel with me.
Links to Karen's books and othertravel articles she's written
are in the show notes for thisepisode.
If you'd like to listen to otherinterviews with writers, check
(41:36):
out episode 18 with cookbookauthor and food blogger Rebecca
Firth, also known as DisplacedHousewife.
And episode 24 with children'sbook author Jess Carpenter.
I'd be so grateful if you'dsubscribe to the YouTube version
of our podcast, which you canfind at WhatIt'sLikeTo2023, or
to the podcast itself, or both.
And if you'd tell a few friendsabout us too.
(41:58):
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr.
Thanks for being curious aboutwhat it's like.
I love having new experiences and I'm learning all
the time and I'm just making allthese interesting connections
and, it's an addiction.
It is a true addiction.
And if I don't travel for awhile, I start to go really
crazy.
Elizabeth (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to "What It's Like To..." The
podcast that lets you walk insomeone else's shoes and live
vicariously through their uniqueexperiences.
I'm your host, journalistElizabeth Pearson Garr.
And each episode, I'll be askinga new interviewee all the what,
why, when, and wheres of howthey do what they do.
If they can do it, so can you.
(00:51):
Lots of us may say we like totravel, but most of us probably
can't claim we are traveladdicts.
My guest today, KarenGershowitz, has earned that
title by visiting more than 95countries, many of them numerous
times.
She's worked her career aroundtraveling and is now a travel
journalist.
She has also published two booksabout her travels.
(01:12):
Karen, I seem to have caught youat a rare moment at home.
Welcome to my podcast.
Karen (01:17):
Yeah, if it had been last month, you would not have gotten
me at home.
Elizabeth (01:21):
Well, I'm glad to meet you.
Thank you for being here.
I think I know your type becausemy dad, I think, we could call a
travel addict.
Thinking about him and otherpeople that are maybe of this
sort, I think people areinterested in travel and travel
excessively for various reasons.
Maybe get into it because theylove history, culture, or maybe
(01:44):
they love studying languages.
What really got you interested?
Karen (01:47):
Culture, for sure.
I love being new places, seeingnew things, interacting with
people.
My career where I actuallyearned money, was as a marketing
person, but mainly for strategy.
So I interviewed loads and loadsand loads of people and I love
talking with people.
(02:08):
And so going to a place thatI've never been to before and
interacting with people onwhatever level is something that
I truly, truly enjoy.
Whether it's across the globe,or it's another part of the U.S.
Because people are quitedifferent in different places.
Elizabeth (02:23):
Yeah, I thought that was fascinating when I was doing
a little research about you.
You chose that careerdeliberately, didn't you?
So it would allow you to traveland afford you this opportunity
to indulge your desire totravel.
Karen (02:37):
Yeah.
I often say that I'm an addictand I don't want a cure.
Um.
Elizabeth (02:44):
You're an addict in all the best ways.
Karen (02:46):
In all the best ways.
But I started traveling very,very young.
When I was 17, I moved by myselfto Europe and ended up spending
three years there.
Had a fabulous time and that waswhen things were really cheap if
you were a student.
So I traveled all over Europe.
Then I came back to the U.S.
for my undergraduate degree,which was in ceramics of all
(03:08):
things.
And, the first summer that I wasthere, I managed to finagle the
school into sending me to Japan,which is a long story, but I
wanted to see all these ceramicsthat the professor was talking
about, so I went off to Japanfor six weeks and loved it.
And after that, I was so totallyhooked.
(03:30):
I had to figure out a way thatsomebody else was going to pay
for the travel, quite frankly.
Elizabeth (03:35):
Yeah, it's not cheap.
Karen (03:36):
So I was looking for a career that would allow me to do
all of this traveling without itbeing a burden, without it
being, you know, just incrediblydifficult, and I worked my way
up over a period of about, five,six years to having good
positions within the world ofmarketing, but especially
(03:57):
working with internationalclients.
And within 10 years, that waswhat I was doing.
Elizabeth (04:02):
And then when you find yourself in a foreign
country.
Actually, I guess it could bedomestically too, travel is
travel.
You could go to the state nextdoor and it could be completely
fascinating.
But when you find yourselfsomewhere new, you have some
great strategies of being ableto dive in and open yourself up
to these new opportunities.
One that I read is (04:23):
Take public transportation.
Can you go into some of theseideas that you have?
Because I think often what canhappen is we could almost have
the same experience we have athome across the world, you know,
eat at McDonald's in Paris ifyou want to, and it can not even
be that different, but you haveways that we can really
(04:43):
experience different cultures in
Karen (04:46):
depth.
I'd be happy to give you a fewof my, the things that, and it's
funny'cause I teach a class ontravel and it's largely about
how do you find your way in aplace that you don't know at all
and really interact with people.
So one of them is taking publictransportation, but not
necessarily because you want togo to a destination.
What you do is you take publictransportation with no idea
(05:09):
where it's going particularly,and if you see something
interesting, get off.
Works better with buses thansubways clearly, but on a bus,
just take it and get offrandomly and walk around the
neighborhood, sit at a cafe.
And if you're in a country thatthey don't speak English, bring
a book with you that you can bereading that has a title
(05:29):
prominently in English on it,but don't look so intently at
the book that nobody wants todisturb you.
So you kind of look down, youlook up, look around a little
bit.
People will come over becausethey want to practice English.
And if you go to a universitycampus, I can guarantee people
will come over, because they allwant to practice.
(05:49):
Go to a restaurant that has acommunal table.
And sit at a communal table.
People would not be sittingthere unless they were willing
to chat.
And what I discovered was thatif you go on to Yelp or some of
these other places, you can lookfor listings of restaurants that
have communal tables.
So that's a great way to meetpeople.
Elizabeth (06:08):
Great tips.
Do you think it takes a certainkind of person, though?
I mean, would you consideryourself a real extrovert?
Someone who's willing to justmeet people wherever you are and
step out of your comfort zone?
Karen (06:20):
It isn't out of my comfort zone because of my
career.
I think before my career, itwould have been.
But because I was talking topeople who I never would have
met in unlikely places, forunlikely reasons, and I had to
be the one who was starting theconversation, I got very good at
it.
I'll tell you a very funnystory.
(06:41):
I said to a friend, I can makeanyone talk about anything for
an hour.
And she said, I'll make you abet.
I bet you can't.
I said, okay, what are webetting for?
Well, we're betting for dinner.
I said, you're on.
Her topic was canned peas.
After a half an hour, she gaveup and said, Oh my God, you're
right.
You could make me talk for threehours about this.
Elizabeth (07:05):
I love this bet.
I think we should all challengesomeone to have a conversation
with someone because it reallyis a wonderful skill to have.
I was just at a dinner the othernight, my husband and I got
split up.
It was assigned seating.
And he said, Oh, no, because I'musually the talker in the two.
And I said, you need to know howto talk to people you don't
(07:25):
know.
Karen (07:26):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's a really good skill tohave.
And it's fun.
Once you get over the, Oh, no,what are they going to think?
People are fun and they'll tellyou fun stories.
And if they know you'retraveling and you say, You're a
local, I know what's in theguidebooks.
Tell me something to do that'snot in the guidebooks.
(07:47):
They will.
Oh, well, have you heard aboutthis?
Well, what do you like?
Oh, I like gardens.
Oh, there's this great gardenthat only the locals know and
they'll draw me maps.
And, it's kind of amazing whatpeople are happy to share with
you.
Elizabeth (07:59):
Probably, it's one of those things that the more you
do it, the more confidence youhave to keep doing it and the
more fun you have doing it.
Like, maybe the first time,whether you're alone or you're
with a partner or a friend orsomething, you're maybe a little
more, leery of, Oh, is thisgoing to work?
Do I feel uncomfortable, butthen you have some good
experiences, chatting with somestrangers, them showing you a
(08:22):
local park or a local pub orwhatever it might be.
Then I can imagine the next timeyou just feel like this is such
a fun way to go about it ratherthan looking at my Michelin
guide and checking off the topfive sites that I'm supposed to
see.
Karen (08:36):
Exactly.
And the idea of getting lost isa really good one.
I mean, even if I'm driving, andthis is a fairly recent example.
I was up in Vancouver and onVancouver Island and I'd been
there, but I'd been to the lowerhalf of it, but I'd never been
to the Northern part.
And I was visiting someone andwhen I was going back South, I
said, you know, I've got a bunchof time.
(08:57):
I'm just going to take all backroads.
I'm not going to use GPS, I'mjust going to take back roads,
and I have a reasonably goodsense of direction.
And so I started driving, and Isaw a sign for a woodworker.
And I thought, oh, that'sinteresting, I'll go see if I
can find the woodworker.
And then I see another sign fora potter.
And then I see another sign fora weaver.
Well, it turns out this is amountain with dirt roads.
(09:19):
It's not in anybody's guidebook,I guarantee it.
But it was all craftspeople.
And I found the woodworker,found the potter, found the
weaver.
They said, Oh, well, you got togo visit my friend so and so.
You'd love their studio.
And I spent an entire afternoonwith all these craftspeople,
which I love.
And it was something I wouldnever have found except that I
(09:41):
just said, I'm just going towander.
And whatever piques my interest,I'm going to follow.
Elizabeth (09:47):
And I think sometimes these literally off the beaten
track escapades that we have endup being the best experiences
and stories that we end uphaving, even when things go
"wrong." They're the most funsort of family tales that we
have.
This last summer we were inWales.
And the only reason we ended upthere, because we had a few
(10:07):
overnights in London.
And I asked my friend who'sEnglish, where should we go
that's not London per se.
We don't want to do whateveryone does.
And she said, Oh, well, Britsoften holiday in Wales.
So let me tell you a few placesto go.
I said okay.
Well, let's holiday like a Brit.
So we went to this area where wewere the only Americans.
People would say, Oh, youraccents are so exotic and all
(10:30):
this.
My kids still talk about how wewere on these country lanes
where we kept getting lost.
And, it was almost more fun thanbeing in London where we ran
into all these Americans and wewere sort of among the hordes.
Because we didn't know what wewere doing and we were just
bumbling around and it was justreally memorable.
Karen (10:50):
Oh yeah.
Those are some of the besttimes.
And thing you were saying, whenthings go wrong.
Recently, I was on a writingassignment in Louisiana, and
they had arranged a whole bunchof things for me to do.
And one day I was supposed to betaking a tour.
Now mind you, I didn'tparticularly want to go on it,
because I've been in New Orleansmany times.
But they had set it up.
So I was going to do this.
Well, I took an Uber cause I wasquite a distance and the traffic
(11:14):
totally stopped, couldn't getthere.
The Uber driver talks to apolice woman who's standing
there.
And she said, Oh, well, there'sa parade.
It's a Christmas parade.
Well, can we get to such andsuch a place?
And she said, not really, butwalk it.
It's not very far.
So I got out and I started towalk.
And, when I got there, there'snothing going on and I call the
(11:35):
number and they say, Oh, didn'tyou get the note that you have
to meet us over in this place asopposed to there?
I said, no, I never got anyinformation back and there's no
way I can get there on time.
I said, sorry, but I won't bethere.
So I watched the Christmasparade, which was a lot more
fun, I think, than the tourwould have been.
They had all the bands and thebands are fabulous in New
(11:56):
Orleans.
Ahh--fabulous.
But they also had the RollingElvi, which is a group of Elvis
impersonators, were hilarious,and it was kind of a combination
of Mardi Gras.
They were throwing the beads andthrowing the cups, and part
Macy's Thanksgiving Paradebecause they had these
phenomenal floats and it waspure New Orleans and it was such
(12:20):
fun and you know, something hadgone wrong.
I could have gotten all upsetbecause I couldn't get to where
I was supposed to be.
Or I could just enjoy the factthat there was something
absolutely fabulous happeningright in front of me.
And so, of course, I did thething that was right in front of
me.
Elizabeth (12:35):
So that makes me think, do you tend to not plan
your trips a lot?
Do you not have a detaileditinerary, day to day?
I'm going to do this in themorning and this in the
afternoon.
Karen (12:45):
Not at all.
Elizabeth (12:47):
Not at all.
Open schedules.
Karen (12:48):
Not at all.
I do it all on the spur of themoment.
If it's a rainy day, I'll go toa museum.
If it's a nice day, I'll dosomething outside.
I am not stuck to any scheduleunless I know that it's
something I absolutely want todo and that I may not get in
unless I do it.
I was in Milan and I wanted tosee the very, very famous
painting of the last supper andit is almost impossible to get
(13:12):
into it.
We made the reservations a monthin advance.
I was with a friend and that wassomething that, no matter what
was happening, I needed to bethere at a particular time.
But that was only because Iwanted to see that specific
thing.
But typically I don't do it atall.
I just show up and whateverhappens happens.
I'm very much into whimsy and Ilook at the local papers.
(13:35):
I look at Time Out in whateverplace I'm going to, if it's a
city, because they publish thatall over the globe.
I'll look at Meetup sometimes.
Sometimes there are great Meetupgroups, and that's going to be
locals as opposed to foreigners.
And it's just a wonderful way toconnect with people.
I like going to art museums.
I like going to gardens.
I like going to theater,concerts.
(13:56):
But most of all, I love talkingwith people and I love going out
and trying interesting food.
Elizabeth (14:01):
And you also suggest, I believe, you can get involved
in an activity.
For example, if you want tolearn how to make a certain dish
in the area or take an art classor something that you're
interested in.
Go to a concert or a sportingactivity or something, I guess
it's all about getting involvedin the local culture or the
atmosphere of the local region.
Karen (14:23):
I've taken cooking classes all around the globe.
I just love it.
And typically, if you take acooking class, they will take
you to a market.
And then you've got somebody whocan say, Oh, this is how we use
this.
And this is how we prepare this.
And that's just great fun.
And they also tell you what's afake, for example, saffron in
(14:43):
many countries is not saffronbecause saffron is very
expensive.
And what they'll do is they'lltake another thing that looks
like saffron and dye it to lookthat color.
Elizabeth (14:54):
Wow.
Karen (14:56):
And it's very common.
And I was told, do not buysaffron unless you are
absolutely sure that you're in aplace that's selling you the
legitimate thing.
Elizabeth (15:06):
Good tip.
Karen (15:07):
Yeah.
But I often say to people,particularly people who want to
travel by themselves and havenever done it plan the trip
around anything that you loveand it doesn't matter much what
it is.
If you're into sports, go tosports events, go to sports
events that you know nothingabout, find someone and ask them
a lot of questions.
You will connect.
If you are into food, take acooking class, take an art
(15:31):
lesson, take a music lesson.
If you're into history, takewalking tours, there are free
walking tours all around theworld and you give the guide a
tip and you will learn morehistory, but there'll also be a
group of people there and veryoften locals.
I live in New York and livedhere my whole life and I've
taken walking tours in New Yorkbecause it's an area of the city
(15:52):
that I just don't know verywell.
Also, I love street art.
In New York City, there is aphenomenal amount of street art
and some of it is knock yoursocks off, it's gorgeous.
And there are areas of the city,once I started researching it,
that there are blocks and blocksand blocks of murals.
I didn't even know they existed.
(16:13):
So I was discovering my own cityin a way that I had not known
it.
Elizabeth (16:18):
Well, it's a great city to get to discover.
But every place has things todiscover that we don't know
about.
Every place does.
Karen (16:25):
I have a friend who lives in Fort Collins in Colorado, and
I was there for a few days andsaid, well, what do you want to
do?
I said, well, I want to go up toCheyenne, which is only about an
hour drive.
Cheyenne, why would you want togo to Cheyenne?
I mean, literally, that was theanswer.
I said, because I read that theyhave murals.
And I want to go see the murals.
Well, we went up there.
We had the best day.
(16:46):
In addition to the murals, theyhad like 10 foot high cowboy
boots that were painted and theywere all over the city.
We went to a restaurant that thefood and the atmosphere was
beyond great.
And the people were friendly andwe started chatting with the
people at one table who said,Oh, well, you got to go see this
and there's a great botanicalgarden.
And at the other table, I goteverybody around us talking.
(17:09):
And, my friend was going, Oh, myGod, I never knew And that night
we had dinner and friends ofhers came over.
Well, what did you do today?
We went to Cheyenne.
Why did you go to Cheyenne?
Elizabeth (17:20):
And now your friend has an answer to"Why Cheyenne?"
Karen (17:22):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And she went back and took them.
Elizabeth (17:27):
You clearly have a special gift for being open and
getting people talking, but Ithink we all could do that.
If we all just sort of, tookthat step to try to be curious.
Karen (17:39):
Yeah.
It's the curiosity that makesthe difference.
It really is.
Instead of assuming that there'snothing in a place.
Assume that there is somethingwaiting to be discovered, and
that you just have to figure outhow to do it.
Elizabeth (17:52):
It's almost approaching travel from a
different way, rather than tellme what I need to see, as in,
okay, internet or guidebooks,give me the list and tell me
what I need to see.
It's almost like, I'm here andI'm here to explore what you
have.
It's kind of turning it on itshead.
Karen (18:12):
Exactly.
Now, I will say, there arecertain things, I'm going to
Spain in May, and I'm going fora conference, but while I'm
there, I'm taking a detourbecause I have never seen the
Whitney Museum in Bilbao and Iwant to see it.
So it's not that I don't go seethings, because I will, but I
(18:33):
can guarantee that when I'm inBilbao, I will discover things
beyond the museum.
Elizabeth (18:39):
So can we do a little sort of test case?
I want to see how you would plana trip.
Let's say my name is Julia and Ilove food and cooking and I'm
going to go to Italy.
I'm going to go to Tuscany.
And I'll be there for 10 days orsomething.
We don't need to go into greatdetail, but how much sort of pre
planning would you do?
I mean, you clearly need to do alittle bit of research about
(19:03):
where you're going to stay and afew restaurant reservations and
whatnot.
What recommendations would yougive to Julia planning her trip?
It depends on what time of yearit is.
If it is off season, you don'tneed to make reservations for
anything.
If it's during the height of theseason, you better make a
reservation for every night.
Ah, such an important point.
(19:24):
Yes.
Karen (19:25):
Off season, I would not make any reservations.
I'd get there, start talking topeople and have them tell me
where to go.
Elizabeth (19:31):
Oh, what a lovely experience that would be.
I mean, I have kids, so I'malways traveling in the high
season of things, but to be ableto travel like in October or
February or something would beamazing.
Karen (19:45):
But if you are traveling in season, I would start looking
up restaurants and trying tofind places that maybe don't
have the most reviews and themost stars.
But when you look at it, and youlook at the menu.
The menu is offering you thingsthat are not run of the mill.
And you can see the pictures ofthe restaurant.
And I mean, there's so muchinformation available.
(20:08):
You can almost go intoinformation overload.
Elizabeth (20:10):
That's true.
Karen (20:11):
And I would not make myself nuts over that.
I would just pick two or threeplaces.
I might look into cookingschools and your kids would
probably love it too, dependingupon their ages, but I've taken
friends who don't like to cookand they've loved going to
cooking classes because it'sjust fun.
If it's hands on, that's theother thing.
(20:32):
I always check to make sure thatit's hands on.
I don't want to just watchsomeone doing it.
Elizabeth (20:36):
Oh, right.
And it's so practical.
Even if you don't feel like youlike cooking, you can always
take it home and use it.
Karen (20:42):
Right, and usually you get to eat a great meal
afterwards that you've prepared,so that's something I would do.
I would find out what else Juliais interested in, and I would
pick a hotel that's near wherethe places are that she's
interested in, as opposed topicking the best hotel, because
it's the best hotel.
And I always look for a hotelthat's near public
(21:03):
transportation.
I don't want to have to walk 10blocks to a Metro or call an
Uber every time I want to gosomewhere.
And I like taking publictransportation.
So I want to have the ability towalk a few blocks and take a
bus, a Metro, a tram, whateverit is that's in the city.
And I would also plan forpossibly day trips out of the
(21:23):
city.
I've taken day tours, I don'tobject to them.
And if it's going somewherethat's hard to get to,
absolutely.
Find somewhere that's out in thecountry that has something that
would be of interest to you.
If you're into history, go to acastle.
If you're into nature, find aplace that's gorgeous scenery
and take a day trip.
But it would be pretty loose.
It would not be (21:43):
this is what you're doing every single day,
every single moment.
Elizabeth (21:48):
I think people can get overwhelmed.
First of all, there's so muchinformation that we can do
research ahead of time.
And also there's this feelingsometimes like I have to see it
all, to see the historicalthings and the architecture and
the art and the food and theculture.
And there's just so much andI've got to squeeze it into this
trip.
And I think the reality is thatthat's impossible.
(22:09):
And it's exhausting, And it'sexhausting.
So it's not fun.
Karen (22:12):
It is not fun doing it that way.
You really want to plan itaround what you care about.
If you're not into art, why areyou going to an art museum?
I'm not into sports.
Why would I go to a sportsevent?
Seriously.
I'm not into going to a brewery.
I hate beer.
I'll not go to a brewery.
I don't care if it's the bestbrewery on the planet.
I'm not going!
Elizabeth (22:34):
Don't waste your time, your money, your effort.
Karen (22:37):
Exactly, on the things that you don't care about and
focus on what is going to makeyou happy.
And the thing is, you alsodiscover things.
Now, this was quite a number ofyears ago, but I was in Prague,
and I love puppets.
I've always loved puppets.
And I found out that Prague islike the home for marionettes.
It has fabulous marionettes, andyou see them selling them on the
(22:57):
streets.
And I went into the touristbureau and I said, are there any
puppet shows?
She said, Oh, yes, they do theMarriage of Figaro with puppets
and live music and live singers,but it's the puppets who are
doing the acting with thesingers and the music behind
them.
It was one of the best thingsI've ever seen.
And I would never have known.
(23:18):
And if I had been scheduled todo this and this and this and
this, I would never have seenthis.
And again, it's really, what doI care about?
What's fun?
What is it that's going to makeme feel like I'm having a really
authentic experience aboutsomething that I care about?
Elizabeth (23:34):
That's a great word.
An authentic experience.
That is why we want to travel,right?
Like I mentioned earlier, Ithrew in, McDonald's in Paris.
Really, if we're just shoppingat stores that we could go
shopping at in an American mallin a different city, eating
American food, kind of what'sthe point?
What are we doing?
We want something authentic in adifferent place.
Karen (23:53):
Absolutely.
And, the other thing is, if youget tired during the middle of
the day, don't feel guilty aboutgoing back to your hotel and
sleeping for an hour or readingfor an hour or just sitting over
a cup of coffee for an hour.
You don't have to be moving allof the time.
Mind you, if you're going tohave a cup of coffee, go to a
cafe, sit outside, and peoplewatch.
(24:14):
I do that a lot.
I love people watching.
You don't have to be movingconstantly.
It's really okay not to.
And people sometimes need thepermission to just go have a
good time.
Elizabeth (24:26):
What are your tips for being in
non-English-speaking countries?
You mentioned sometimes bringinga book, and being near a
university, but if you're havinglanguage barriers, do you
sometimes hire a translator ordo you go on tour...?
Karen (24:39):
Yeah, I might go on a tour.
The other thing is one of thethings that I do always make
sure when I'm booking a hotel isthat there are people that are
English-speaking on the staff ofthe hotel, always, because I can
talk with them and say, Here'sthe kinds of things I'm
interested in.
Can you give me somesuggestions?
How do I get there?
And Google Translate is aGodsend.
Elizabeth (25:01):
That is true.
But more of a modern travelconvenience.
Take advantage of it.
For years, I was travelingwithout all of this stuff.
And, now that I have it, Iwouldn't go back for anything
because it really is a help.
You don't want to be constantlylooking at your phone, but there
are situations where it reallyis helpful.
The other thing for anybodywho's really nervous about it,
(25:24):
and it's something that I stilldo, you check into the hotel,
the first thing you do is youget a business card from the
hotel that's got their addressand phone number on it so that
if you get really lost, you takea taxi and you show them the
card.
That's your home base.
Karen (25:37):
That's your home base.
And, I've had to do that on afew occasions.
I've gotten myself lost and I'vegot a good sense of direction
and I've gotten myself lost.
But, most places, it would behard for you to, just casually
wander into a terrible placebecause they're not usually
adjacent to the places thatyou'd be interested in going.
I've only been stolen from oncein my life.
(25:58):
And it was in Japan of allplaces.
Elizabeth (26:01):
I was pickpocketed.
So now, apart from everythingelse, I have a bag that has
zippers on it with a little lockon it.
And that's what I use when I'mtraveling.
Like a fanny pack kind of bag,or what do you carry around in
the daytime?
Karen (26:13):
Just happen to have it with me, right here.
Elizabeth (26:16):
Sort of an over the shoulder type bag.
Karen (26:18):
Over the shoulder, and it's got a little hook, and you
can lock it.
And then it's got a pocket inthe back that's right next to
your body.
Elizabeth (26:26):
Do you tend to travel mostly solo or with other
people?
Karen (26:30):
Sometimes I travel by myself.
I have a couple of good friendswho I travel with.
I have occasionally gone ontours because it's somewhere
like India, where I really didnot want to go out on my own and
China.
Particularly China, because noone speaks English and, I can
remember going with the group--it was a small group.
There were 10 of us and we wentinto the train station.
(26:53):
And if I had not been with thatgroup, my head would have been
spinning.
It was crowds of people like Ihave never seen.
No signage in anything exceptChinese.
And I was lost.
And I still remember the guidesaying, when we enter the train
station, we're going to be likesticky rice.
Don't go away from the group.
We'll never find you again.
(27:14):
And she was right.
Follow the directions, youAmericans.
Follow the directions.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, we walked in there andeverybody saw exactly what she
was talking about.
So it really varies.
It varies on where I'm going,what I'm going to be doing.
I do a lot of solo travel.
I happen to like solo travel,which always surprises people.
But think about it.
(27:35):
If you're sitting by yourself,it's much more likely that
someone will come up to you.
If you're sitting with someoneelse, you're part of a pairing
and they're far less likely.
That's when you really have toinitiate conversations.
I still can do it and I do itall the time, but traveling by
myself, it's never an issue.
The other thing is that everysingle morning when I travel, I
(27:57):
write for an hour, and I've beenwriting a travel journal.
My mother got me started when Iwas eight years old.
We went to Florida to visit mygrandmother and she said, you're
not going to remember what wedid.
So I want you to write down whatyou did and draw pictures and
whatever.
And I did.
And I've been doing it eversince.
And she encouraged me my wholechildhood And every trip I have
taken-- not for business, butfor fun, I have a journal from.
(28:21):
and so, in my book, in bothbooks, I go back to years ago
and people say, how do youremember all these details?
And I say, you want to see myjournal?
Elizabeth (28:30):
I journal also, I haven't as much recently, but I
used to do the same thing.
Sometimes it feels like a choreat the time.
I don't know if you still feelthat way.
If the hour sometimes feelslike, oh, I'd rather be doing
something else, but it's atreasure to have it.
And once you get into it, itfeels fun.
If you're a writer, it does feelfun.
Karen (28:48):
Yeah, I really enjoy it.
When I'm traveling, it is tocapture whatever it was that I
did the previous day.
And it's not I did this.
I did that.
That's not interesting.
It's, what did I experience?
How did I feel about it?
What happened that was reallyunusual?
What did I notice in a placethat I've been to?
I mean, I lived in London forthree years, so what did I
(29:10):
notice that I didn't notice thelast time I was here?
So it's that kind of thing,which is a very different kind
of travel journal than mostpeople do.
It's not a travelogue.
It's really an experientialthing.
And I think that's what travelreally does.
Like I mentioned, my parentsstill travel a lot.
They're in their eighties andthey love it.
It's my father's favorite thing.
(29:31):
And I've heard people say, whydo people travel?
You can just watch things onYouTube or watch it on TV.
You can see the Great Wall ofChina.
You can see Sydney Opera Houseand all this, but when you're in
a place, you can never replicatethat, the smells, the taste,
talking to the person on thestreet corner, in the cafe.
You can never replicate thatexperience by watching
(29:53):
something.
So it's an experience and Ithink for someone like you, you
need to keep quenching thatthirst.
I am insatiable as they say! AndI hope I am forever.
For me, it's what makes lifereally interesting.
I love having new experiencesand I'm learning all the time
and I'm just making all theseinteresting connections and,
(30:15):
it's an addiction.
It is a true addiction.
And if I don't travel for awhile, I start to go really
crazy.
Elizabeth (30:21):
Where are some places that you've been that you can't
wait to go back to?
And then where are some placesthat you haven't been that are
still on your list that you'dlike to go?
Karen (30:30):
Well, I'll start with the haven't been to and want to go
to.
Now I give away my age.
During the middle of thepandemic, I turned 70.
And I had planned to go to theSouth Pacific Islands.
I've wanted to do that foryears, not to Tahiti,
particularly, but some of thesmaller islands like Rarotonga
and the Cook Islands.
That didn't happen, but I wouldreally like to go.
(30:52):
So that's definitely on my list.
I would very much like to go toGhana and I will do that within
the next year or two I'm sure.
I'm going to cross one of themoff this year.
I have never seen the northernlights, although I have tried 3
or 4 times, but this year I'mgoing to do it.
I'm going to Norway on a cruisethrough the fjords and you can
(31:13):
go to sleep and they leavesomeone out on the deck to watch
for the northern lights.
When they see them, they wakeeveryone up.
And you get to be in Norway.
And you get to be in Norway.
Yeah.
I want to go to Malta.
People have said it's absolutelyfascinating.
I have not been there.
I was in Dubai and Abu Dhabi,but I would like to go back to
(31:34):
the UAE and see some of theother countries because I hear
tell that they're quitefascinating.
And each one's very differentfrom the other.
And I'd like to go frankly, backto Dubai.
I was there about seven yearsago, maybe, and it's changing so
fast.
I'm sure it's going to look likea different city when I go back.
And the same thing with AbuDhabi.
(31:54):
I was there 2 days after theLouvre Abu Dhabi opened, which
is one of the most gorgeousmuseums I've ever been in, the
architecture is phenomenal andthe exhibits are just amazing.
They've set it up in a veryunusual way.
Instead of showing you likeFrench art, Asian art, what
they've done is arrangedeverything chronologically.
(32:15):
So what was happening in the1500s all around the globe?
Elizabeth (32:19):
Oh, how interesting.
Karen (32:20):
Which is a really interesting concept.
And I'd never seen anything likeit.
And it was wonderful.
So I'd like to go back therebecause there's like 3 or 4
museums that are opening there.
So I would like to go back thereas well as Oman and some of the
other countries.
And then where I would love togo back to, I used to go to
Crete, Greece every other summerfor many years with a group of
(32:42):
friends.
We rented a house and it wasreally magical.
And I have not been back toCrete probably in 20 years, and
that's somewhere I would reallylike to go back to just to see.
I'm a little afraid of what itmight be like.
Because I'm afraid it might havegotten built up.
Another place that I definitelywant to go back to is South
Korea.
I was there and loved it, but Ididn't get to spend enough time.
(33:04):
I really only saw Seoul and oneother town, but I'd like to go
back and really explore SouthKorea.
And then places that I don'tever want to go back to.
I don't want to go back to Bali.
I've been in Bali three times.
The first time I was there itwas totally unspoiled.
It was amazing.
The second time I was there, itwas a little more built up.
The third time I was there, Ithought that I was in Australia.
(33:26):
There were so many Aussiesthere.
And it had lost a lot ofcharacter.
And that's even when you wentaway from the resort areas.
And that was more than a littledisturbing.
So I don't want to go back.
I want to have this pristineimage of it in my mind.
Same thing with Venice.
I was in Venice when it wasnot-- I mean, they're now
talking about charging people togo in if you go in for the day.
(33:49):
And I understand why from whatI've read about it.
But I was there 40 years agowhen that was not what it was
like.
And you could just wanderaround.
It was magical.
And so I don't want to go backthere.
Because it's going to ruin myimage.
Elizabeth (34:04):
Yeah, I can understand that.
Karen (34:06):
So, you know, there's both ends of the spectrum.
And lots of places-- like LondonI go back to all the time
because I have a lot of friendsthere.
And if I'm going somewhere elsein Europe, I always stop off in
London just to go see myfriends.
But somebody said to metomorrow, let's go to I don't
know, Uganda, I'd say, okay,let's go.
Elizabeth (34:25):
You're a yes woman when it comes to travel.
Karen (34:27):
Oh, yeah.
I'm the one that all my friends,if they want to go somewhere,
and they want somebody to gowith them, So, how would you
feel about?
And my usual question is, when?
Elizabeth (34:36):
Can I fit it into my schedule?
Karen (34:38):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Elizabeth (34:40):
So do you have any tips for jet lag?
Karen (34:42):
First thing you do when you get on the plane is change
your watch to the time of whatit's going to be when you
arrive.
Then, behave as though that'sthe actual time it is.
So, if it's supposed to bebreakfast time, eat breakfast,
and then stay up.
If it's evening, even if you'renot tired, try and take a nap.
On the
Elizabeth (35:02):
plane.
In the little cramped seat inthe
Karen (35:05):
plane.
You bet.
Do whatever you can so that youare on that time zone when you
arrive.
A lot of people swear bymelatonin, never done anything
for me.
If I'm going to Europe, it'salmost always a night flight.
I get there in the morning, dropmy bags off at the hotel.
And typically they won't let youcheck in until like two o'clock.
(35:26):
So I wander around a little bitin a fog.
Two o'clock I go back to thehotel, sleep for two or three
hours.
And then get up and have it beevening, have dinner, do
something, and then go back tosleep.
And that usually works.
Within a day, I'm okay.
Coming back the other direction,I have a worse time.
Going east is easy, going westis more difficult, because you
(35:48):
have a very long day.
And, I end up waking up in themiddle of the night every time.
Every time.
Elizabeth (35:55):
So even a seasoned, very extra seasoned traveler has
a hard time with jet lag.
I guess that's a littlereassuring.
Karen (36:02):
Yes.
Elizabeth (36:03):
I mean, I'm sorry to hear it, but it happens to all
of us.
It happens to everyone.
It's physiological and you dowhatever you can to just make it
as normal as possible.
Karen (36:13):
That's all you can do.
Elizabeth (36:14):
The long plane rides and the jet lag is a fair price
to pay for getting to experiencethe different cultures.
Karen (36:21):
And if you're going really around the globe.
Now this is going to tell youhow much of an insane traveler I
am, but these were mostlybusiness trips.
I've been to Australia eighttimes.
Three for fun and five werebusiness trips and talk about
screwing up your internal clock.
That's the one that is lethal.
For two or three days, I'mwalking around in both
(36:43):
directions, going, where am I?
What time is it?
And made the huge mistake on onetrip when I got home, I thought,
Oh, I'll go for groceries.
I'm okay.
And I backed out right intoanother car.
Elizabeth (36:55):
Oh, understandable.
Karen (36:58):
Yeah.
And that was when I said, neverdrive again, right when you get
back and you're jet lagged,never ever.
Elizabeth (37:05):
Do not operate heavy machinery.
Karen (37:08):
Exactly.
Elizabeth (37:09):
So now you're a travel writer.
Was that a difficult pivot?
Clearly the subject matter comeseasily, but is it hard to, get
published and was it hard towrite the books?
Karen (37:20):
The first book took a long time.
Because I was writing it while Iwas still working and it was in
bits and pieces and fits andstarts.
The second book I wrote so fast,I couldn't believe.
And I really couldn't believehow fast I wrote it just was
easy.
And I'm writing the third onenow.
And that one's also going to bepretty easy.
But getting published, finding apublisher is not easy.
(37:43):
It's a chore.
It takes a long time and it'sdifficult.
And then the really hard part ismarketing it.
And my career was in marketingand I thought, oh, that won't be
a problem.
Lo and behold, I discovered thatit is a huge amount of work, a
massive amount of work, and thatcame as kind of a shock, and a
lot of it I like, but some of itis just tedious work.
The first book is"Travel Mania: Stories of Wanderlust," and the (38:07):
undefined
thing about these books, is youdon't have to read them in
order.
I've had people say to me, oh,well, I looked up all the places
that I've been to to see whatyour experiences were like
compared to what my experienceswere like.
And I've had other people say,yeah, I read all the places that
I've always wanted to go to andhave never been to.
(38:28):
Then I skip around and then I goback and I read the ones I
haven't read.
Because they're interesting, butI focused on the ones I was
really interested in.
The second book, can be read thesame way, is called, it's got a
very long title,"Wanderlust,Extraordinary People, Quirky
Places, and Curious Cuisine."And that one, literally came out
of people saying to me, you havesuch great stories about people
(38:51):
you've met, and you don'temphasize that in the book.
Quirky places, yes, but I knowyou've been to even quirkier
places than are in the firstbook, which is certainly true.
And we know you love food, writeabout food.
Elizabeth (39:03):
So it sounds like this maybe came from your
journals, some of these stories?
Karen (39:05):
Yeah, a lot of that.
Yeah.
A lot of them.
And it was funny because Ithought, well, I'll just write
the one book and then everybodykept saying, no, no, no, no, no,
you got to write more stories.
And I made a list of, okay, sowhat could I tell a story about
and realized I have enough forthree or four books and every
time I travel I get more.
And then what happened after thefirst book was published, I
actually had an onlinepublication contact me and say
(39:29):
would I write a story for them,which I did.
And I was contacted by anotherplace, and they've published a
number of my stories.
And so now I've got peoplecoming to me asking me to write.
Fantastic.
Yeah, it's taken a while.
And if you had told me 5 or 10years ago that this would
happen, I would not havebelieved you.
(39:50):
But I put in the work, I reallyput in the work.
And, the books are fun andpeople have read them and go,
oh, my God, she's got greatstories and she can write, which
is a good combination.
And, so it's beginning to reallypay off.
Elizabeth (40:04):
Congratulations.
Karen (40:05):
Thank you.
Elizabeth (40:06):
Thank you so much.
This has been really fun for me.
I've sort of been an armchairtraveler here through you and
can't wait to start travelingagain.
Karen (40:16):
It's been great fun talking with you.
Karen is certainly aninspiration, having figured out
a way to combine her passion andher work.
Here are some of my takeawaysfrom our conversation.
Number one (40:30):
Find a job that lets you do what you love.
Two.
Look for opportunities to openyour world and get to know new
people.
Take public transportation.
Sit at a communal table.
Let yourself get lost every nowand then.
Three.
When things seemingly go wrong,they often turn out to be the
most fun or memorableexperiences on a trip or in
(40:53):
life.
Four.
Be curious.
Instead of assuming that thereisn't anything in a particular
town, assume that there'ssomething waiting to be
discovered and that you justhave to figure out how to do it.
Five.
"Dream jobs", like travelwriter, don't just fall into
your lap.
You still have to be qualified,and work hard to get them.
(41:14):
And finally, number Six.
You don't have to do everything,on a trip or in your everyday
life.
Strive for an authenticexperience.
Do what makes you happy.
My thanks to Karen Gershowitzfor talking travel with me.
Links to Karen's books and othertravel articles she's written
are in the show notes for thisepisode.
If you'd like to listen to otherinterviews with writers, check
(41:36):
out episode 18 with cookbookauthor and food blogger Rebecca
Firth, also known as DisplacedHousewife.
And episode 24 with children'sbook author Jess Carpenter.
I'd be so grateful if you'dsubscribe to the YouTube version
of our podcast, which you canfind at WhatIt'sLikeTo2023, or
to the podcast itself, or both.
And if you'd tell a few friendsabout us too.
(41:58):
I'm Elizabeth Pearson Garr.
Thanks for being curious aboutwhat it's like.
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