January 27, 2021 • 51 mins
Changing behaviour is difficult. It can provoke both anxiety, anger and stress. But why? What exactly happens in your brain when you try to make a change? I have asked neuroscientist, Gabija Toleikyte, to help us understand change from a neurological perspective – how your brain works, and what you can do to help it change.
GABIJA TALKS ABOUT
- Some of the biggest breakthroughs in recent time in neuroscience.
- How to ‘trick’ your Mammal brain into liking a change.
- Why we need the Prefrontal Cortex to change and how to activate it.
- How leadership style can affect the brain’s willingness to change.
- The Amygdala: A small part of the Mammal brain that can hijack your rational behaviour and cause anxiety, anger etc.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morten Andersen (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
We're a few weeks into the newyear now, and many people have
made a new year's resolution.
And by now, many have probablyalso forgotten about that New
(00:28):
Year's resolution, maybe evenfeeling a little bit guilty
about that. Why is it so hardfor us to make those changes? a
better understanding of howwe're wired and how our brains
work, can maybe help usunderstand a little bit better
about why it is so hard to keepNew Year's resolutions. So let's
find out in this episode of whatmonkeys do. When I was 15, my
(00:52):
doctor had a suspicion that Ihad epilepsy. And to find out he
sent me to the local hospital toscan my brain. It was an EEG
scan. And I thought it was themost interesting thing in the
world that I've ever tried. Thedoctors attached a lot of small
metal discs to my head, I lookedat like something from a future
(01:13):
movie, I looked absolutelyridiculous. And then he looked
on his monitor. And frankly, Ithought that on his monitor, he
could see what I was thinking.
So if I was thinking of anelephant, I thought he could see
an elephant. But that was nothow it worked. All he could see
was a lot of parallel lines,they showed up. He looked at his
(01:34):
monitor for a while. And then helooked at me and he said, Yeah,
you probably got epilepsy. I didnot know what that was. But I
knew that that I have justexperienced the coolest thing in
the world. Back then we reallydid not know much about our
brain. Even though people havebeen fascinated about our brain
for centuries, all the way backto the Greeks, we really did not
(01:56):
know much about our brain. Andwe know much more now over the
last 30 years, we have beenscanning every part of our brain
using many different methods.
And we have a good picture ofthat. So now we know so much
more. And therefore we also knowhow our brain helps us or stand
in our way so to speak when wewant to make a change. My guest
(02:19):
today is an expert in our brain.
She is a neuroscientist. She isthe lecturer and behavioral
coach. She completed her PhD atUniversity College London, her
new book has just beenpublished. It's called Why the
F*ck Can't I Change. And it isabout how your brain works and
(02:40):
how we can use those insightsabout the brain to help us
change. So this is very relevantfor this podcast. Welcome to
you, Dr. Gabija Toleikyte.
Gabija Toleikyte (02:53):
Nice to be here.
Morten Andersen (02:54):
Great. So this episode is about our brain and
about change the neuroscience ofchange, so to speak, and urine
neuroscientists. But that'sobviously an umbrella term that
covers a lot of differentspeciality. So can you maybe
tell us a little bit about whatyour speciality is and how you
got into that field?
Gabija Toleikyte (03:14):
Yeah, so then research over the years in in
various fields of neurosciencestarted my research in the field
of vision, how their brainprocesses visual information.
And that, in fact, we don'treally see the world as it
really is. There is a lot of socalled top down modulation
inputs that Distort and blankout some information and notice
(03:38):
other information. The secondproject I did in the first
researcher then in Lithuania,the country I'm from, and the
second research project was onParkinson's disease in Finland
in Helsinki University. And welooked at how different brain
chemicals called modulatoryneurotransmitters influence the
(04:00):
Parkinson's disease development,and looked at potential ways to
medicate and stop theprogression of Parkinson's
disease. And then later on whenI moved to UK, my PhD allowed me
to do research in threedifferent research groups. So to
gain a well roundedunderstanding of the brain, I
(04:20):
did research in cognitiveneuroscience and in cellular or
functional neuroscience. Sobasically, I looked at the
different ways to reallyunderstand how the brain works
in episodic memory, usingcognitive neuroscience methods.
And later on, I moved in thefield of spatial navigation. And
(04:41):
I did both cognitiveneuroscience project during the
computational modeling. Andlater on, I extended it in doing
experiments in brain slices,because certain brain models are
trying to understand how in myproject was specifically how we
find our way around and how weperceive things. The environment
and how we can navigate in it.
But those models have certainexpectations of how neurons and
(05:05):
networks function. That is thelast 20 years there's been a
huge breakthroughs in themethods, we can actually
investigate neuronal activityand the network activity to
very, very high specificity. Somy PhD project was, which we
later on published in ancientneuroscience was to stimulate
(05:26):
individual signups of theneurons and please specific
sequences, and see how neuronsactually what things they make
out of it, how the add thatinformation together, say it was
actually extremely challengingin terms of of technical aspect
of it, as we used two photonlasers and very state of art
methodologies to make it work.
(05:52):
And I was really interested inall those multiple levels of
neuroscience, because I thinkall of them are needed for us to
understand how the brainactually function.
Morten Andersen (06:01):
So it's interesting when we think about
our brain, we always try to usea metaphor for explaining what a
brain is. And I guess back inthe early 80s, or late 70s, it
was a computer that was ourmetaphor for what a brain is.
And if you use a computermetaphor, then you're thinking
about how big a memory do youhave? How effective does it
(06:24):
work, and you can maybe thinkabout optimizing your brain. We
had on a previous episode, wehave Elizabeth Loftus talking
about memory. And she alsotalked about how changing the
metaphor can change how we thinkabout memories. So it goes from
being absolutely correct tobeing a construct, I would love
to hear a little bit about whatdo you think is an appropriate
(06:44):
way to think of our brain? Whatis an appropriate metaphor for
understanding? What is thatorgan we call the brain?
Gabija Toleikyte (06:52):
Well, if you imagine if our computers could
change and mold with eachexperience, imagine you have a
laptop as as they do here. Andwith all you do, suddenly, not
only the software, but actuallyhardware kept changing, and kept
doing the tasks you do mostfrequently quicker and better,
and kept learning based on that.
That would be a good metaphor.
Morten Andersen (07:14):
Okay. So that's actually really interesting
about our brain is that it canchange that. Not only is it is
it wired in some way, and someparts of it is probably also
hardwired. But even though theyare hardwired, we can actually
change that. Can you tell us alittle bit about how plastic our
brain really is? Yes,
Gabija Toleikyte (07:34):
so the brain can and cannot change brain
doesn't change for no goodreason. And only if we actually
do the new actions for longenough and frequent enough to
overwrite the old existingnetworks. And if we create the
new networks, now, depending onthe areas of the brain, and
depending how ancientevolutionary the functions are,
(07:55):
that also influence how easy orhard it is to change. So
emotional patterns, for example,especially really, ancient ones,
are really hard to change.
behavioral patterns, such asproductivity habits, are easier
to change. However, if they havedeep rooted emotional cause of
them, it makes it harder tochange. It depends on what we
(08:17):
tried to change on how easy orhard it is to change. And also,
it depends on what experience wehave in doing the things new
way. If you have learned aforeign language at school, such
as in England, a lot of peoplelearn French in schools, they go
on and forget most of it lateron. They tried to relearn it.
(08:38):
For them, it will be much easierto learn French than for me who
never ever studied French. Thereis a lot of networks already
that are applicable to the skillof speaking French, as I haven't
even started building thosenetworks. quite complex actually
field of change. And there is noone size fits all. It's very
(09:01):
specific based on individualbased on past habits built based
on what happened we're trying tobuild. And also based on what we
go through at the moment, theareas of time, the change would
be much, much easier while inothers nearly impossible, but we
can talk about it in greaterdepth later perhaps.
Morten Andersen (09:23):
Okay, so it depends partly on which part of
our brain that we're talkingabout. So the lizard brain is
probably more difficult tochange, then the prefrontal
cortex, probably also if youhave attached a lot of emotion
to it, then it's harder tochange than if you have not. And
then, you know, it's down toindividual experience as well as
(09:43):
to how it is possible. But Butwhat you are saying is that our
brain is plastic that it ispossible to make changes the new
connections in our brain andtherefore so we can make we can
make changes is that correct?
Yes. Cool. So when I had my EEGscan. And this is literally back
in the late 80s. I said that weknew very little about our
(10:04):
brain. And you said that we'vehad an explosion of knowledge
over the last 20 years. Can youtell us a little bit about what
is the sort of the latest thingsthat we have found? What What
have we discovered over the lastmaybe 10 years? And also, how
much do we know about our brain?
And or maybe even clearer, youknow, how big of areas do we not
(10:26):
know anything about yet?
Gabija Toleikyte (10:28):
Yeah, so probably the biggest
breakthrough has been in thefield of brain plasticity. There
is new neurons in the brainbeing born, even as an adult
neurogenesis. And that opened upimagination, you know, that
there is endless potential forlearning and changing because
they constantly incorporate intothe circuitry. We know the
(10:48):
mechanisms, how it works, but westill don't know what potential
of change they allow us. Andexactly these new neurons do. We
know mechanism, how they getincorporated into the, into the
new networks, we know whatthings can influence, the
plasticity, in other words, plusis a plastic process itself. So
(11:11):
we know the exercise, andconstant mental and physical
activity, increase the amount ofnew neurons being born and
survival of them. So that that'sbeen a big breakthrough as well.
That also, there's been somevery interesting findings in the
field of memory, show thatactually our memory is not very
reliable. Where's the braindoesn't remember information As
(11:33):
it is, it remembers informationas it would be most useful for
our survival. The memories arenot very accurate, we keep
updating and changing them as wego along. However, we're not
aware of them. And there isthere is a process called memory
reconsolidation, where thememories can just completely
(11:54):
extinguish, or memories can becompletely changed over the
years. We also know awfully lotnow about the spatial navigation
has been big, big focus on thelast 20 years. And I myself did
my PhD in left field. It's beeninitially discovered in 1970s,
(12:15):
by by Professor John O'keefe.
And later on by Moser family inNorway. The amazing thing with
our field is that there isindividual neurons can encode
something meaningful, becausethat means most or that
individual neurons are reallynothing without the network. And
that still applies the networkis still essential. But just
looking at the activities of oneneuron, we can tell where we
(12:36):
are. So there's been a lot ofdifferent spatially irrelevant
neurons discovered in the last20 years and in 2014, professors
Moser Professor O'Keef receivedthe Nobel Prize for that. And
maybe just to name last tworeally crucial findings, one
being the glial cells, a wholelot about neurons that encode
(12:59):
information and make thingshappen. But glial cells been
kind of forgotten for a longperiod of time, and they've just
been taught just to support thefunction of neurons, which is
still true. But now we knowactually, glial cells influence
awfully lot how the neuronsfunction. And perhaps last,
lastly, all the breakthroughs inneuroscience such as
(13:23):
optogenetics, two photonstimulation of individual
signups is calcium imagingallowed us to investigate the
circuitry of the brain in alsolike just with pure light, blue
light, trigger certain behaviorsin experimental rodents in these
experiments, and I have in mind,but so that kind of enabled us
(13:45):
to really kind of link theneuronal activity to the
function to really narrow down.
So there's been some really,really fascinating findings. And
a lot of them to be honest,applied to change and apply huge
understanding how the brainworks. Now, there is still a lot
of things we don't know, as alot of those more
(14:07):
technologically advanced methodsbeing used on brain slices on
animal models, computationalmodeling, so so it's kind of
still haven't been linked verywell to human behavior. As you
can imagine, a lot of thosemethods are quite intrusive, can
easily be used in humans. Sostill, in terms of understanding
(14:28):
how human brain function stillrelies on brain imaging
techniques, and there was some,such as transcranial magnetic
stimulation, which, you know,can actually evoke electrical
current in the brain and seewhat your body and mind does
with that, but these methods arenot as specific and they don't
have such a good spatialresolution. So this is kind of a
(14:49):
harder to live specificfunction. And there is a lot of
still fields of research whichare, although fascinating, such
as consciousness, personalityAnd so on, but still quite
elusive and really hard tostudy, even the field of
emotion. There's a lot ofresearchers who mean different
things when they study emotions,there is huge debates, you know,
(15:12):
yes. How much cognitiveinvolvement there is in
emotions? And how much of it isjust your core, like basic
response to increase thesurvival? Yes,
I believe there will be lots ofnew findings and breakthroughs
in neuroscience in the next 50years.
Morten Andersen (15:29):
Okay, so it sounds like there are three ways
that we can investigate. Inhumans, the brain. One is,
obviously if a person has adamage in a brain, we can see,
okay, you have damage in thatpart of the brain, what does
that do to your functioning,that's a very traditional way
of, of experiencing and learningabout the brain, the scanning of
the brain MRI scanning, and thenyou also said, I'll try to put
(15:53):
some electronic to to your brainand see what effect that does to
your functioning or your memoryor things like that, is that the
three ways that we caninvestigate the brain at the
Gabija Toleikyte (16:02):
brain damaged patients been very, very useful
moment,in understanding how the brain
functions about 50 years ago,since about 20-30 years ago,
functional magnetic resonanceimaging has actually did that,
because then we can see intactbrain fully functioning brain in
action when we do specifictasks. So that's more
(16:25):
informative, as opposed to thedamaged brain, because there was
there has always been a debate,you know, how much of that
applies to the healthyindividuals. And magnetic
resonance imaging has beenextremely, extremely useful.
Functional is like imaging thebrain in real time and magnetic
resonance imaging without thefunctional part is just looking
(16:47):
at the structure.
Morten Andersen (17:01):
So it sounds like there's been a lot of new
knowledge about the brain overthe last 20 years. And you
mentioned a couple, especiallythe plasticity, I think,
personally, I think it's really,really fascinating that we
develop new neurons, and that wecan change patterns in our
brain. The question now is, withthat knowledge, what do we know
in terms of how our brainsfunction or work in times of
(17:25):
change? What do we know when wewant to make a new year's
resolution? What does the braindo then? And how can we use that
in terms of making those changeshappen?
Gabija Toleikyte (17:36):
Yes, it's a rather complex topic, when we
trying to change. Some of thebrain areas are very cooperative
with that, such as the outerlayer of the brain called
neocortex. And in particularly,prefrontal cortex is not only
willing to change but capable tochange other brain areas, which
(17:58):
are rooted much deeper in thebrain, which can be grouped in
so called the Pella mammaliancomplex, or in short mammal
brain, they hate change, becausefor those ancient areas, they
don't quite understand what'sgoing to happen when you're
going to change, they needsafety above all. So changes is
(18:18):
therefore often followed byanxiety, fear, and other
emotions that naturally try tobring us back to equilibrium. So
in other words, our brain istrying to push us back to the
old habits, because mammal brainbelieves, if you have survived
up until now, during these oldactions, you're better off just
repeating them. Hmm. mammalbrain doesn't care about your
(18:41):
highest aspirations, it justwants you to be safe, now human
brain or the neocortex canunderstand much more complex
information, it can understandwhat the potentials you have, it
can understand all thepossibilities, the change will
open to you. And is also muchmore capable to change from the
(19:01):
brain plasticity point of view.
So often, those two areas are inconflict when we are trying to
change. So first advice increating change is actually
doing very small steps at atime. A lot of my clients, you
know, come to me and say, Okay,I want to change this and that
and basically everything in mylife. And when they try to do
(19:21):
so, they feel okay, what's wrongwith me that I can't change. So
I always advise start with onething. So for example, if
somebody wants to be morephysically active this year,
start running, let's say, thenperhaps starting with once a
week, just going for 15 minuterun once a week. If you did that
successfully, you can eitherincrease 15 minutes to 30
(19:44):
minutes or make it twice a week.
So your brain doesn't actuallyfreak out. And also, when we try
to change is very important tosee the point in why we're
trying to change because Imagineyou're trying to give up eating
sugary snacks naturally formammal brain associated with
(20:06):
pleasure. For majority ofpeople, it causes pleasure just
thinking about it,
Morten Andersen (20:10):
I can relate to that.
Gabija Toleikyte (20:12):
Now, you will never ever be able to have that
piece of cake again.
Morten Andersen (20:15):
Well, I don't know, I don't feel very well
about that topic.
Gabija Toleikyte (20:19):
So that evokes pain. So what a new habit evokes
pleasure or pain, we either morelikely or less likely to do it,
if it were treated with painwill naturally be resistant to
do it. So we change theperspective. And I share in the
book, a lot of kind of practicaltools how to do that. But one of
them is very simple. Write downall the benefits for you, and
(20:42):
any other areas in your lifethat are important to you of you
stopping eating sugary snacks.
So maybe you'll feel better inyourself, you will not get a
sugar crash in the afternoon,maybe you will look better and
enjoy your body more, maybe youwill have more energy and be
able to do more podcasts and soon. So we want to trigger
(21:03):
pleasure centers. When we thinkabout not eating that cake, if
you want to extend it evenfurther, you cannot what are the
drawbacks? If you kept on eatingas much sugary snacks as you
like, what would be drawbacks.
First drawback I could think ofis developing type two diabetes,
(21:24):
and so on. So right now as manydrawbacks as you could think of
those together would certainlychange the polarity. And then
not eating that, let's saypunish your colon in front of
you would would actually causemore pleasure and eating it
would cause pain. So in otherwords, you'll be more motivated.
And you'll be much much easierto resist the temptation.
Morten Andersen (21:47):
It's actually interesting, because I remember
when I started readingpsychology or studying
psychology, there was a lotabout pain and pleasure. And I
always felt that it was verysimplistic because, you know,
are we not more complex animalsthan just thinking about pain
and pleasure, but what you'reactually saying is that, that
makes total sense. Because wehave a part of our brain, which
(22:07):
really is only thinking aboutpain and pleasure and
experiencing a new thing, itwill evaluate quickly, is this
painful? Is this pleasurable?
And then they will they will sayyes or no, based on that. So it
is actually very binary, it'sactually very simple. So
therefore having those positiveassociations to a change, or
having a lot of a big why forwhy change is necessary. does
(22:30):
actually from a brain point ofview makes total sense.
Gabija Toleikyte (22:36):
Yeah. And when we talk about motivation, it's
an emotional component.
Motivation isn't rational. Whenyou feel motivated to exercise,
it means that you haven'ttriggered the men, right?
Morten Andersen (22:47):
It sounds like I'm trying to, I wouldn't say
trick part of my brain. But onepart of my brain, the prefrontal
cortex is trying to, to trickthe mammal brain into thinking
something as good.
Gabija Toleikyte (23:00):
I like to use the word educate, because mammal
brain is very simplistic, itdoesn't understand the
complexities. It lives in here.
Now, it doesn't understand thefuture consequences. prefrontal
cortex, on the other hand, ismuch more complex in terms of
thinking and it can understandboth other people's needs, and
also the future consequences.
And you can bit by bit educateyour mammal brain, what what
(23:23):
does it really mean?
Morten Andersen (23:25):
So has there been studies where a person has
been trying to say the positivein a change or trying to create
a why and how you can see howthe, let's call them the mental
part of the brain has actuallychanged activation. As part of
that.
Gabija Toleikyte (23:40):
These are quite tricky studies to do. So a
lot of those implications oflike looking at how the brain
functions, but in order to kindof do on an individual basis,
because there's so muchvariability within habits within
the brain functioning, it's notvery easy to rule it out. And
(24:01):
perhaps it's not even needed.
insights on the brain activityalone are sufficient. And then
you can see whether it createsbehavioral change required for
you has been some interestingstudies, though, showing the
different metabolism ofdifferent brain areas which
which also apply to creatingchange. So with the more evolved
(24:21):
brain regions, such asprefrontal cortex is much more
novel and much more evolved thanthan the mammal brain and mammal
brain is more involved than thelizard brain or the brainstem,
the more energy they require.
Each activity requires theactivation of 1000s of neurons
(24:43):
in prefrontal cortex, as opposedto in the mammal brain. It might
be just a few 100 of neuralnetworks to be activated. So
when we trying to make change,we need activation of prefrontal
cortex which needs energy Wealso need to make sure that we
have space and time for that tohappen. If you're really overly
(25:07):
busy, really like kind ofjuggling multiple tasks, and
really struggled to keepeverything together, in those
periods of time, it's reallyhard to change anything. Also,
if we're going through a trickyperiod emotionally, so if
somebody is depressed, orgrieving something, the change
is also very, very, very hard.
Because the brain is in survivalmode, we need to be in so called
(25:32):
thriving mode, to be able tocreate change. And for that
reason, actually are looking atthe habits which would help you
to replenish and get good, suchas sleeping hygiene, taking
breaks, or habits such asmeditation, mindfulness, and so
on, would increase your chancesin creating change. Nutrition is
another field that can influencethat.
Morten Andersen (25:56):
Okay, you can have a brain in good health, and
you can have a brain in badhealth, so to speak, and the
better health the brain is in,the more easy it is, or the more
likely it is that you can make achange because it requires
energy also for the prefrontalcortex to, let's say, educate
the mammal part of the brain.
And in order to have a healthybrain, it could be something to
(26:20):
sleep well, nutrition, exercise,do mindfulness, and also
generally just be in a in a goodmood and not be too busy. Is
that correct?
Gabija Toleikyte (26:32):
That's correct. Let me illustrate. So
imagine, you come back home, youhave really, really busy day.
Let's imagine that you want tohave more empowered
communication with yourchildren, you come back home,
and you're so tired, reallyexhausted, very hungry, you
haven't eaten for a long time,and your children start nagging
you for something, what are youlikely to do,
Morten Andersen (26:53):
I'll probably be a little bit too harsh with
them.
Gabija Toleikyte (26:56):
And that's normal, because your brain is is
in survival mode at that periodof time, your prefrontal cortex
is not functioning optimally, itneeds nutrients, and Recovery
First, and normal brain isrunning the show on the map,
every single one of us isselfish. We can't put other
people's needs first. Andphysically, we can think, what
(27:18):
would be the most empoweredresponse in that time we can't
compute. It's not possible.
Imagine you you came back, andyour children give to you and
you said, Look, that is a bittoo tired at the moment, I just
need to have my dinner first.
talk to you in half an hour, yousit down, you have a really nice
meal. Let's imagine you havesalmon and some vegetables and
(27:38):
rice. You've eaten your hair youhave to drink. And then you go
to your children. Would yourresponse be different?
Morten Andersen (27:45):
Yeah, sure.
Absolutely.
Gabija Toleikyte (27:47):
Yeah. So actually being aware of where
you're at, and what thingsyou're capable of, might help
you to create change desire.
And, and that applies, inparticular, if any of your
listeners want to create changein the relationships,
communication, leadership style,the most important thing that is
to really observe, where you'reat what your brain is capable
(28:08):
of, at that moment, and to youif it's not a good time to
interact with people. Yes, I lotof problems can be solved just
by that.
Morten Andersen (28:19):
Yes. And I suppose what is making you
stressed what is taking energyfrom you, is different from
person to person. So if I'm justthinking a little bit about some
people being introverted, somepeople being extroverted than
introverted people might use alot of energy in social
relations, and therefore cominghome actually being more tired
(28:41):
than somebody in the sameposition, being extroverted,
maybe have more energy for theirchildren or for the for their
spouse.
Gabija Toleikyte (28:49):
Yeah, surely.
And also, we have somewhatindividual energy levels at
different times of the day, somepeople are really, really good
in the mornings, while otherthem flourish in the evenings.
So just observing yourindividual patterns is very
important.
Morten Andersen (29:06):
And the high level of energy is important
because our thinking I cannoteducate our mammal I, if we do
not have sufficient energy. If Iwas a leader at a workplace, for
instance, and I wants to imposea change on a group of
individuals, I guess what you'vesaid is that one, I would need
(29:27):
to stake the why I would need toconvince them, so to speak about
the positive about this changeso they can convince their part
of the brain that this ispositive, but then also maybe
make sure that there is not toobusy at work with other changes
or with other part of work. Sothey actually have time to do
(29:48):
that. Is that correct?
Gabija Toleikyte (29:49):
Yes. And maybe even more powerful would be to
ask the team members to actuallyadd down the benefits for that
because my benefits wouldn'tinfluence You, because each of
us has have has very individualvalue here. And therefore
different things would feelmotivating. For each each of us
(30:11):
writing down very specificindividual benefit lists based
on our individual values will bemuch more powerful. But also, if
there is really tight deadlines,and there is high stressful
situations that wouldunfortunately, a sabotage
change. Very interestingly, whenleaders use the leadership style
(30:33):
called resonant leadership,which honors relationships
honors emotional needs of peopleprovides with safety, the team
members where, in other words,leaders who truly care about the
members, that actually buffersagainst negative effects of
stress to the brain plasticity.
So resonant leadership, in fact,increases the possibility of
(30:54):
change, even in stressful times.
So that's one of the things Sofirst, reducing stress for the
team if possible, reducingworkload possible, and providing
support providing help for themto create that change, but also
using resonant leadership. Andif lead is to visit, there could
be in work coaches available toprovide the resonant
(31:16):
relationship to team members,okay.
Morten Andersen (31:28):
You just mentioned resonant leadership,
that is a specific circuit ofyour brain that you're using.
And it has a specific outcome,can you tell us a little bit
about what resonant leadershipis
Gabija Toleikyte (31:41):
to be fair to create the resonant leadership,
or resonant relationships, youdon't even need to be formal
leaders to be able to needmultiple brain networks, but can
be grouped into so calleddefault mode network. It's a
really large network. Andinterestingly, we activate this
network when we are daydreaming,we activate this network when we
(32:02):
are thinking about our pastexperiences, and imagining our
future experiences. We're usingthis network. Now when we act
socializing with each other,when we're connecting, not only
at the information exchangelevel, but also at the emotional
level. So this, this networkallows us to be social to truly
other people to be empathic. Soif for example, if you were now
(32:25):
in pain, I would empathize withyou being in pain and alter my
behavior accordingly, the phonenetwork enables me to do so now
there is another network calledtask positive network, which
other type of leaders calleddissonant leaders activate that
positive network is primarilyfocused on getting things done.
(32:45):
So imagine I went to, I couldsee that you're in pain, but I
didn't care, I just wanted toget through the interview,
that's task positive network, wedon't connect with people at the
emotional level, we only connectwith them as the kind of means
to the achieve task. I know itmight sound a little bit
(33:05):
negative, but task positivenetwork is crucial for us to get
things done. So in other words,if I'm sitting at my computer at
work, and trying to complete thePowerPoint presentation for my
lecture, and people keep comingand talking to me, and I could
see that people are strugglingemotionally, it will totally
distract me, and I wouldn't getanything done. It would be nice
(33:27):
for them, that I'm connectingwith them and talking to them,
but it would completelyjeopardize my productivity. So
at the times, I really amimagining my presentation is
tomorrow. So at that time, youneed to switch off, turn my task
positive network on to getthings done. So in other words,
there is time in place fordifferent leadership styles in
different behavior styles, anddifferent brain networks
(33:50):
activated. Now, the mostinteresting thing about those
networks is we can't activateboth of them at the same time.
You know, if you're havingconversation with your team
member, your spouse, your child,you have to think what does this
person need from me now? Do theyneed to empathize and connected
with to regulate the emotionalside? Or do they need me to stay
(34:12):
focused in the task positivemode to help them to achieve the
task and using that whicheveryou think is more appropriate.
Morten Andersen (34:21):
So we have two networks. And one if a leader if
a person, it could be a parentis is using that is called the
resonant network which isactivated, which is a let's call
it a people orientated networkand where you show empathy and
then you have a task or a thingorientated network was called
(34:44):
the dissonant network. And it'sinteresting that one is about
getting things done and one isabout empathizing and and having
good relations with people andthey are two different networks
in our brain. I think what isreally also interesting is that
obviously We can change bychanging our network so to
speak. And we can actually dosomething specific to activate
(35:06):
one network over the other. Butwhat I also think is interesting
is if we consider something likemirror neurons, which is that we
can actually influence peoplearound us which network that we
have. So if I have a resonantnetwork, and I want to engage
with other people, and I feel agreat level of empathy with
(35:26):
others, they also have thatnetwork activated more likely,
if I have that, is that is thathow it works?
Gabija Toleikyte (35:34):
Definitely. So both are resonant and dissonant
leadership styles arecontagious. The brain imaging
studies by Richard boyatzis. AndTony Jack showed that when
people were imagining resonantleaders, the resonance networks
been activated in their ownbrains, when they imagining the
interactions with distantleaders. They became distant
(35:54):
men themselves without thosenetworks. But very
interestingly, the effects onmirror neuron system by resonant
leadership, were stronger toresonance, have a greater
emotional contagion on the teammembers than dismantle leaders?
Morten Andersen (36:12):
Yeah. What do you essentially saying is that
we get infected by otherpeople's brain patterns. So if I
want to make a change, I am morelikely to make that change and
make it stick if I'm surroundedby people who see positive
around this change, or who alsobelieves that this is a good
thing, compared to if I'msurrounded with people who don't
(36:35):
want to change, I don't thinkthis is a good thing
Gabija Toleikyte (36:37):
that would be in direct way, but it definitely
has some merit. So it wouldn'tbe by the mirror neuron system,
it would be more by emotionalcontagion. When good emotional
state where we feel encouraged,believed in having pleasant
social interactions, our mammalbrain is more quiet. Therefore,
(37:00):
it doesn't sabotage the activityof prefrontal cortex. And we are
more aware of what we need todo, we are more productive in
getting things done. And we aremore capable to change. When we
are around people who arenegative critical. We are
constantly triggers the mammalbrain, and especially the center
(37:20):
of mammal brain called amygdalacan actually jack the prefrontal
cortex. So imagine if somebodycriticized you and suddenly
triggered like stress response,anger and anxiety, how rational
Are you at the moment?
Morten Andersen (37:34):
Yes, and I guess the amygdala, every time
that it, it hijacks me, I becomevery irrational, I become very
emotional, essentially,
Gabija Toleikyte (37:43):
all of us do.
Only people with amygdala damageor inappropriate functioning of
amygdala don't listen, peoplewhere amygdala is not connected
to rational centers, and which,in fact, although it sounds like
a nice thing that you know,amygdala wouldn't hijack your
rational thinking, but they'recompletely incapable and making
decisions because they can'tincorporate the desires into
actions. Yes. So that connectionbetween the Midland prefrontal
(38:07):
cortex is crucial for us beingwho we are, when a niggle is
trigger, we can be rational, webecome a little bit like small
children. Yes, you all havedifferent patterns. So some,
some people tend to beoutwardly, while other people
might actually be physicallyaggressive. And all of them are
natural parts of the brain. Sothe one to change that we can't
(38:30):
quite get rid of that that thebrain is made. But we can
actually stop taking action forabout 15 minutes. It could be
jealousy, it could be stress, itcould be anger, don't allow
yourself to do anything. Withinfluence the situation for 15
minutes. There is someinteresting ideas, then in the
(38:51):
romantic couples arguing. So ina john Gottman research lab, and
he was fascinated in studyingmarriages and relationships, he
couples to talk about theconflict, the area of conflict.
And when conversations startedto get heated, people were
getting the amygdala triggeredand they were using more and
(39:12):
more accusative language. Andthey would only past mistakes
people done and so on. In otherwords, they've been been
becoming much more mammal braindominant thinkers, which was
triggering other persons andmake them even more. But what
they've done, very clever. Theysaid, You know what, I'm really
sorry, the microphone is notworking because the couples were
(39:33):
being filmed and theconversations were being
recorded. So they interruptedthe couple and said, Could you
guys just stop conversation anddo something individually now to
fix it? So they pretended thatthey were fixing the microphones
for 15 minutes? And after that,they said, Okay, well, you can
start your conversation. What doyou think happened to those
(39:55):
couples?
Morten Andersen (39:57):
That's so fascinating. So the amygdala
Sponsor essentially lowered, andtherefore they got less
emotional about it and thereforecould have a more clear
conversation,
Gabija Toleikyte (40:07):
they could actually see the other points of
view much more. So you knowwhat, I can see what what I've
just said could be hurtful toyou. And in fact, probably not
even core back. And I deviatedfrom the point. And yes, I know
you want to have a dog, forexample, if that was the area of
conflict, but these are thecounter side to the storm. So
(40:27):
these are all the kind ofdisadvantages, but I can see
your point of view why these areyour advantages, right. So they
were able to get into the otherperson's point of view, am I and
also have much more rationalconversation, which is one of
the functions of prefrontalcortex was prefrontal cortex
being hijacked as just notpossible, we just, we either
(40:49):
want to win, or escape becausewe are escaping in safety.
Morten Andersen (40:54):
Yes, if I have a teammate, I want to give that
person a critical feedback onlet's say, a presentation he or
she gave, then a good way to dothat would be to say, I want to
give you some feedback on yourpresentation, and then allow
that person to have a little bitof space before I actually gave
them that information. So theywere not, let's say hijacked by
(41:16):
that Amygdala by at that time.
Gabija Toleikyte (41:18):
Yes. And also maybe giving a chance for people
to choose, but it's a good timenow or not, or perhaps might be
that giving some information, ormaybe even sending some
information by email, andcalling a meeting after so they
already process information,they could come down, and then
they could talk in person. Okay.
But the other good point is thatwhen we give feedback, we often
(41:40):
tend to point out what negativeshave the productivity or about
the presentation, right? But weforget to mention with things
the done Wow. Hmm. So in fact,and the Gottman suggest that the
ratio should be at least five toone, five positives to one
negative, and maybe mentioningjust one thing to improve,
(42:01):
because if we mentioned too manythings to improve, it overwhelms
the amygdala, it causes so muchpain that they don't even want
to think about, because it is.
So just choosing what would bethe most important thing if that
person that will change theproductivity or performance and
just mentioning that thing. Andother meeting mentioning another
(42:24):
thing, and also learning whatthings the person actually
improved in the recent times.
Morten Andersen (42:29):
Okay, so you have just published a book
called Why the F*ck Can't IChange? What answer is there to
that? What is your conclusion toWhy do people struggle with
change.
Gabija Toleikyte (42:41):
And a lot of times when we try to change, we
really underestimate what isrequired to happen in the brain
for us to change. And I sharedsome of those insights already
in the podcast, but in the book,there is a lot more. And they
are specific to the differentfields of change, and divide
book nine chapters being habits,emotions, personality, brain
(43:05):
health decision making,productivity, relationships,
communication, and leadership.
And look specifically how ineach of those areas if we want
to incorporate change, whatrelevant information from the
brain science, and what are thepractical tools, I share
coaching tools and otherpractical tools, what practical
tools could help me to createthat change. So we need to work
(43:28):
in accordance how the brainfunctions as opposed to against
it, and resolutions in the waymajority of us set them they
work against how the brainfunction, were doomed to fail.
In other words, when we kind ofset up to change everything at
once in a short space of time.
Morten Andersen (43:48):
So if this was recorded a month ago, and people
were just about to make theirnew year's resolutions, which
three advice would you givepeople as they were about to
make new year's resolutions?
Gabija Toleikyte (44:03):
One exercise I really like about setting new
year's resolutions better isfirstly, drawing the timeline of
your life. Take your age, andlet's imagine you live up until
let's say 100 years, and thendivide the remaining time into
decades and set a topic for thedecade. So for example, for me
topic now is combining being agreat mother with doing well in
(44:28):
my career. Managing both kneesis very important to me for the
next 10 years. In anotherdecade. It would be writing as
many books as possible, or, youknow, university professor,
whatever that is, and writingthe titles, and that expands the
timeline, then we don't feel theurgency I need to change
everything. Now. We have plentytime. Even if I was 70 years old
(44:53):
now. I still have 30 years to goI still have things to do right.
So so the stretching Thetimeline is first thing, then
dividing the decade, you coulddo three year segments or five
year segments to five yearsegments. And writing on was the
most important thing for you tofocus next five years, and what
are the five steps to achieveit, and just focusing on one. So
(45:16):
for me, for my for example,career Now, given that I have
written a book, and it's timesensitive, it's actually do
everything I can, to help thisbook reach as many people as
possible, is probably number onepriority in terms of my working,
and just kind of focusing on theactions to do with that, because
when we said to our brain,multiple targets, he can't focus
(45:41):
on anything at once. Okay, thisyear, I just focus on book
publicity as much as possible,and do all the other things I
need to do as well likeUniversity lecturing, coaching,
and, and spending time with mydaughter. But there would be
something where my brain wouldbe looking out for executing and
focusing. And if for somebodywho's maybe health, or improving
(46:02):
relationships, or maybe findinga partner they see, or maybe
changing career, just choosingone topic, and doing one thing
at a time. And there is anotherthing I really want to share
each day, ask yourself, what isthe most meaningful thing today,
I can do just one thing towardsthat goal. So for me today, the
(46:23):
most meaningful thing I could dois to have a conversation with
you and reach out to youaudience, I completed this task
for today, if for somebody isbeing healthier. So maybe
instead of pastry, having boiledeggs for breakfast, write it for
somebody being more physicallyactive, maybe going for 15
minutes walk after breakfast. Sojust choosing one thing. And
(46:45):
once that if you completed that,and you want to know what to do
next, ask what's the second mostimportant thing get done today.
And then second thing doesn'tnecessarily need to be congruent
with that task of the year,because we have multiple
responsibilities. So so thatkind of will help and starting
with the number one priority.
And just writing one thing on todo list for many people help
actually to reduce theprocrastination as well.
Morten Andersen (47:10):
Fantastic. So I what I hear your advice, really
is to break it down into, youknow, take a big goal, and to
break it down into baby stepsand everyday say, what
meaningful step Can I taketoday. And that will help us
because our brain actually fightagainst change. But if we break
them down into small steps, thenour brain is more likely to help
(47:32):
us along that change journey.
Gabija Toleikyte (47:35):
And we have much more likely to accumulate
success. When we do things insuch a small steps, more
success, we accumulate moremotivation, we have to keep on
going.
Morten Andersen (47:45):
I think that's a really good point that you
know that we need to rewardourselves, but also accumulate
success stories, because thatwill leave an imprint with us
that we can actually do this.
Fantastic. So I have no doubtthat understanding our brain
better understanding the area ofneuroscience is a phenomenally
important thing for us, as weget to understand ourselves and
(48:07):
get to understand our change andhow we can change more
effectively, I want to thank youvery much for coming in today.
And speaking with me, I really,really appreciate that. So I
just want to recommend all ourlisteners to to get your book
and read it because it has a lotof insights into you know how
our brain works, and how we canuse that insight to make a
change. So thank you very much,
Gabija Toleikyte (48:31):
Bill. And thank you so much, Morten, it's
been pleasure talking to you.
Morten Andersen (48:34):
Thank you. I think we can learn a lot from
neuroscience when we want tomake a change. In fact, I think
we'll struggle to make any typeof change. If we do not take
into account how we are wired, Itook three things away from my
talk with Gabby. One, weunderestimate what it takes to
(48:58):
make a change our oldest part ofour brain, the reptilian, and
the mammalian brain does notlike change. In fact, they want
to preserve the status quo. Butour most recent and most
executive parts of our brain,such as our prefrontal cortex,
(49:18):
on the other hand, while theylike change, so we must use our
new brain to educate our oldbrain. And only then will we be
successful. Two (49:27):
our brain must be in strong health at the time
when we want to make a change. Iknow it sounds a bit strange to
talk about different parts of ushaving separate health. But I do
think that if we can create anenvironment where our brain has
the best condition to work well,and yeah, let's call that brain
health. Well, then that's good.
So remember, sleep well eatwell, and avoid being in a
(49:51):
stressful state. And finally,point number three. Be careful
about the amygdala. Hi jack,David Goldman described an
amygdala hijack as a personaland emotional response that is
overwhelming and out of measure.
So we're doing something in theheat of a moment. And afterwards
(50:12):
we're saying, what was Ithinking, our rational mind
cannot stop the emotional part.
And we experienced this becausein essence, the amygdala has a
privileged status in our brainso to speak, it can hijack the
rest of the brain if it needsto. So if we feel threatened, it
can respond irrationally. Now,you can avoid this by
(50:35):
mindfulness, for instance, bybreathing, slowing down and
trying to focus your thoughts.
Gabija has made a great TEDxtalk, where she talks about the
two types of leadership stylesthat we also talked about in the
podcast interview, and I willencourage you to check it out.
So enjoy that. Until next time,take care
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
We're a few weeks into the newyear now, and many people have
made a new year's resolution.
And by now, many have probablyalso forgotten about that New
(00:28):
Year's resolution, maybe evenfeeling a little bit guilty
about that. Why is it so hardfor us to make those changes? a
better understanding of howwe're wired and how our brains
work, can maybe help usunderstand a little bit better
about why it is so hard to keepNew Year's resolutions. So let's
find out in this episode of whatmonkeys do. When I was 15, my
(00:52):
doctor had a suspicion that Ihad epilepsy. And to find out he
sent me to the local hospital toscan my brain. It was an EEG
scan. And I thought it was themost interesting thing in the
world that I've ever tried. Thedoctors attached a lot of small
metal discs to my head, I lookedat like something from a future
(01:13):
movie, I looked absolutelyridiculous. And then he looked
on his monitor. And frankly, Ithought that on his monitor, he
could see what I was thinking.
So if I was thinking of anelephant, I thought he could see
an elephant. But that was nothow it worked. All he could see
was a lot of parallel lines,they showed up. He looked at his
(01:34):
monitor for a while. And then helooked at me and he said, Yeah,
you probably got epilepsy. I didnot know what that was. But I
knew that that I have justexperienced the coolest thing in
the world. Back then we reallydid not know much about our
brain. Even though people havebeen fascinated about our brain
for centuries, all the way backto the Greeks, we really did not
(01:56):
know much about our brain. Andwe know much more now over the
last 30 years, we have beenscanning every part of our brain
using many different methods.
And we have a good picture ofthat. So now we know so much
more. And therefore we also knowhow our brain helps us or stand
in our way so to speak when wewant to make a change. My guest
(02:19):
today is an expert in our brain.
She is a neuroscientist. She isthe lecturer and behavioral
coach. She completed her PhD atUniversity College London, her
new book has just beenpublished. It's called Why the
F*ck Can't I Change. And it isabout how your brain works and
(02:40):
how we can use those insightsabout the brain to help us
change. So this is very relevantfor this podcast. Welcome to
you, Dr. Gabija Toleikyte.
Gabija Toleikyte (02:53):
Nice to be here.
Morten Andersen (02:54):
Great. So this episode is about our brain and
about change the neuroscience ofchange, so to speak, and urine
neuroscientists. But that'sobviously an umbrella term that
covers a lot of differentspeciality. So can you maybe
tell us a little bit about whatyour speciality is and how you
got into that field?
Gabija Toleikyte (03:14):
Yeah, so then research over the years in in
various fields of neurosciencestarted my research in the field
of vision, how their brainprocesses visual information.
And that, in fact, we don'treally see the world as it
really is. There is a lot of socalled top down modulation
inputs that Distort and blankout some information and notice
(03:38):
other information. The secondproject I did in the first
researcher then in Lithuania,the country I'm from, and the
second research project was onParkinson's disease in Finland
in Helsinki University. And welooked at how different brain
chemicals called modulatoryneurotransmitters influence the
(04:00):
Parkinson's disease development,and looked at potential ways to
medicate and stop theprogression of Parkinson's
disease. And then later on whenI moved to UK, my PhD allowed me
to do research in threedifferent research groups. So to
gain a well roundedunderstanding of the brain, I
(04:20):
did research in cognitiveneuroscience and in cellular or
functional neuroscience. Sobasically, I looked at the
different ways to reallyunderstand how the brain works
in episodic memory, usingcognitive neuroscience methods.
And later on, I moved in thefield of spatial navigation. And
(04:41):
I did both cognitiveneuroscience project during the
computational modeling. Andlater on, I extended it in doing
experiments in brain slices,because certain brain models are
trying to understand how in myproject was specifically how we
find our way around and how weperceive things. The environment
and how we can navigate in it.
But those models have certainexpectations of how neurons and
(05:05):
networks function. That is thelast 20 years there's been a
huge breakthroughs in themethods, we can actually
investigate neuronal activityand the network activity to
very, very high specificity. Somy PhD project was, which we
later on published in ancientneuroscience was to stimulate
(05:26):
individual signups of theneurons and please specific
sequences, and see how neuronsactually what things they make
out of it, how the add thatinformation together, say it was
actually extremely challengingin terms of of technical aspect
of it, as we used two photonlasers and very state of art
methodologies to make it work.
(05:52):
And I was really interested inall those multiple levels of
neuroscience, because I thinkall of them are needed for us to
understand how the brainactually function.
Morten Andersen (06:01):
So it's interesting when we think about
our brain, we always try to usea metaphor for explaining what a
brain is. And I guess back inthe early 80s, or late 70s, it
was a computer that was ourmetaphor for what a brain is.
And if you use a computermetaphor, then you're thinking
about how big a memory do youhave? How effective does it
(06:24):
work, and you can maybe thinkabout optimizing your brain. We
had on a previous episode, wehave Elizabeth Loftus talking
about memory. And she alsotalked about how changing the
metaphor can change how we thinkabout memories. So it goes from
being absolutely correct tobeing a construct, I would love
to hear a little bit about whatdo you think is an appropriate
(06:44):
way to think of our brain? Whatis an appropriate metaphor for
understanding? What is thatorgan we call the brain?
Gabija Toleikyte (06:52):
Well, if you imagine if our computers could
change and mold with eachexperience, imagine you have a
laptop as as they do here. Andwith all you do, suddenly, not
only the software, but actuallyhardware kept changing, and kept
doing the tasks you do mostfrequently quicker and better,
and kept learning based on that.
That would be a good metaphor.
Morten Andersen (07:14):
Okay. So that's actually really interesting
about our brain is that it canchange that. Not only is it is
it wired in some way, and someparts of it is probably also
hardwired. But even though theyare hardwired, we can actually
change that. Can you tell us alittle bit about how plastic our
brain really is? Yes,
Gabija Toleikyte (07:34):
so the brain can and cannot change brain
doesn't change for no goodreason. And only if we actually
do the new actions for longenough and frequent enough to
overwrite the old existingnetworks. And if we create the
new networks, now, depending onthe areas of the brain, and
depending how ancientevolutionary the functions are,
(07:55):
that also influence how easy orhard it is to change. So
emotional patterns, for example,especially really, ancient ones,
are really hard to change.
behavioral patterns, such asproductivity habits, are easier
to change. However, if they havedeep rooted emotional cause of
them, it makes it harder tochange. It depends on what we
(08:17):
tried to change on how easy orhard it is to change. And also,
it depends on what experience wehave in doing the things new
way. If you have learned aforeign language at school, such
as in England, a lot of peoplelearn French in schools, they go
on and forget most of it lateron. They tried to relearn it.
(08:38):
For them, it will be much easierto learn French than for me who
never ever studied French. Thereis a lot of networks already
that are applicable to the skillof speaking French, as I haven't
even started building thosenetworks. quite complex actually
field of change. And there is noone size fits all. It's very
(09:01):
specific based on individualbased on past habits built based
on what happened we're trying tobuild. And also based on what we
go through at the moment, theareas of time, the change would
be much, much easier while inothers nearly impossible, but we
can talk about it in greaterdepth later perhaps.
Morten Andersen (09:23):
Okay, so it depends partly on which part of
our brain that we're talkingabout. So the lizard brain is
probably more difficult tochange, then the prefrontal
cortex, probably also if youhave attached a lot of emotion
to it, then it's harder tochange than if you have not. And
then, you know, it's down toindividual experience as well as
(09:43):
to how it is possible. But Butwhat you are saying is that our
brain is plastic that it ispossible to make changes the new
connections in our brain andtherefore so we can make we can
make changes is that correct?
Yes. Cool. So when I had my EEGscan. And this is literally back
in the late 80s. I said that weknew very little about our
(10:04):
brain. And you said that we'vehad an explosion of knowledge
over the last 20 years. Can youtell us a little bit about what
is the sort of the latest thingsthat we have found? What What
have we discovered over the lastmaybe 10 years? And also, how
much do we know about our brain?
And or maybe even clearer, youknow, how big of areas do we not
(10:26):
know anything about yet?
Gabija Toleikyte (10:28):
Yeah, so probably the biggest
breakthrough has been in thefield of brain plasticity. There
is new neurons in the brainbeing born, even as an adult
neurogenesis. And that opened upimagination, you know, that
there is endless potential forlearning and changing because
they constantly incorporate intothe circuitry. We know the
(10:48):
mechanisms, how it works, but westill don't know what potential
of change they allow us. Andexactly these new neurons do. We
know mechanism, how they getincorporated into the, into the
new networks, we know whatthings can influence, the
plasticity, in other words, plusis a plastic process itself. So
(11:11):
we know the exercise, andconstant mental and physical
activity, increase the amount ofnew neurons being born and
survival of them. So that that'sbeen a big breakthrough as well.
That also, there's been somevery interesting findings in the
field of memory, show thatactually our memory is not very
reliable. Where's the braindoesn't remember information As
(11:33):
it is, it remembers informationas it would be most useful for
our survival. The memories arenot very accurate, we keep
updating and changing them as wego along. However, we're not
aware of them. And there isthere is a process called memory
reconsolidation, where thememories can just completely
(11:54):
extinguish, or memories can becompletely changed over the
years. We also know awfully lotnow about the spatial navigation
has been big, big focus on thelast 20 years. And I myself did
my PhD in left field. It's beeninitially discovered in 1970s,
(12:15):
by by Professor John O'keefe.
And later on by Moser family inNorway. The amazing thing with
our field is that there isindividual neurons can encode
something meaningful, becausethat means most or that
individual neurons are reallynothing without the network. And
that still applies the networkis still essential. But just
looking at the activities of oneneuron, we can tell where we
(12:36):
are. So there's been a lot ofdifferent spatially irrelevant
neurons discovered in the last20 years and in 2014, professors
Moser Professor O'Keef receivedthe Nobel Prize for that. And
maybe just to name last tworeally crucial findings, one
being the glial cells, a wholelot about neurons that encode
(12:59):
information and make thingshappen. But glial cells been
kind of forgotten for a longperiod of time, and they've just
been taught just to support thefunction of neurons, which is
still true. But now we knowactually, glial cells influence
awfully lot how the neuronsfunction. And perhaps last,
lastly, all the breakthroughs inneuroscience such as
(13:23):
optogenetics, two photonstimulation of individual
signups is calcium imagingallowed us to investigate the
circuitry of the brain in alsolike just with pure light, blue
light, trigger certain behaviorsin experimental rodents in these
experiments, and I have in mind,but so that kind of enabled us
(13:45):
to really kind of link theneuronal activity to the
function to really narrow down.
So there's been some really,really fascinating findings. And
a lot of them to be honest,applied to change and apply huge
understanding how the brainworks. Now, there is still a lot
of things we don't know, as alot of those more
(14:07):
technologically advanced methodsbeing used on brain slices on
animal models, computationalmodeling, so so it's kind of
still haven't been linked verywell to human behavior. As you
can imagine, a lot of thosemethods are quite intrusive, can
easily be used in humans. Sostill, in terms of understanding
(14:28):
how human brain function stillrelies on brain imaging
techniques, and there was some,such as transcranial magnetic
stimulation, which, you know,can actually evoke electrical
current in the brain and seewhat your body and mind does
with that, but these methods arenot as specific and they don't
have such a good spatialresolution. So this is kind of a
(14:49):
harder to live specificfunction. And there is a lot of
still fields of research whichare, although fascinating, such
as consciousness, personalityAnd so on, but still quite
elusive and really hard tostudy, even the field of
emotion. There's a lot ofresearchers who mean different
things when they study emotions,there is huge debates, you know,
(15:12):
yes. How much cognitiveinvolvement there is in
emotions? And how much of it isjust your core, like basic
response to increase thesurvival? Yes,
I believe there will be lots ofnew findings and breakthroughs
in neuroscience in the next 50years.
Morten Andersen (15:29):
Okay, so it sounds like there are three ways
that we can investigate. Inhumans, the brain. One is,
obviously if a person has adamage in a brain, we can see,
okay, you have damage in thatpart of the brain, what does
that do to your functioning,that's a very traditional way
of, of experiencing and learningabout the brain, the scanning of
the brain MRI scanning, and thenyou also said, I'll try to put
(15:53):
some electronic to to your brainand see what effect that does to
your functioning or your memoryor things like that, is that the
three ways that we caninvestigate the brain at the
Gabija Toleikyte (16:02):
brain damaged patients been very, very useful
moment,in understanding how the brain
functions about 50 years ago,since about 20-30 years ago,
functional magnetic resonanceimaging has actually did that,
because then we can see intactbrain fully functioning brain in
action when we do specifictasks. So that's more
(16:25):
informative, as opposed to thedamaged brain, because there was
there has always been a debate,you know, how much of that
applies to the healthyindividuals. And magnetic
resonance imaging has beenextremely, extremely useful.
Functional is like imaging thebrain in real time and magnetic
resonance imaging without thefunctional part is just looking
(16:47):
at the structure.
Morten Andersen (17:01):
So it sounds like there's been a lot of new
knowledge about the brain overthe last 20 years. And you
mentioned a couple, especiallythe plasticity, I think,
personally, I think it's really,really fascinating that we
develop new neurons, and that wecan change patterns in our
brain. The question now is, withthat knowledge, what do we know
in terms of how our brainsfunction or work in times of
(17:25):
change? What do we know when wewant to make a new year's
resolution? What does the braindo then? And how can we use that
in terms of making those changeshappen?
Gabija Toleikyte (17:36):
Yes, it's a rather complex topic, when we
trying to change. Some of thebrain areas are very cooperative
with that, such as the outerlayer of the brain called
neocortex. And in particularly,prefrontal cortex is not only
willing to change but capable tochange other brain areas, which
(17:58):
are rooted much deeper in thebrain, which can be grouped in
so called the Pella mammaliancomplex, or in short mammal
brain, they hate change, becausefor those ancient areas, they
don't quite understand what'sgoing to happen when you're
going to change, they needsafety above all. So changes is
(18:18):
therefore often followed byanxiety, fear, and other
emotions that naturally try tobring us back to equilibrium. So
in other words, our brain istrying to push us back to the
old habits, because mammal brainbelieves, if you have survived
up until now, during these oldactions, you're better off just
repeating them. Hmm. mammalbrain doesn't care about your
(18:41):
highest aspirations, it justwants you to be safe, now human
brain or the neocortex canunderstand much more complex
information, it can understandwhat the potentials you have, it
can understand all thepossibilities, the change will
open to you. And is also muchmore capable to change from the
(19:01):
brain plasticity point of view.
So often, those two areas are inconflict when we are trying to
change. So first advice increating change is actually
doing very small steps at atime. A lot of my clients, you
know, come to me and say, Okay,I want to change this and that
and basically everything in mylife. And when they try to do
(19:21):
so, they feel okay, what's wrongwith me that I can't change. So
I always advise start with onething. So for example, if
somebody wants to be morephysically active this year,
start running, let's say, thenperhaps starting with once a
week, just going for 15 minuterun once a week. If you did that
successfully, you can eitherincrease 15 minutes to 30
(19:44):
minutes or make it twice a week.
So your brain doesn't actuallyfreak out. And also, when we try
to change is very important tosee the point in why we're
trying to change because Imagineyou're trying to give up eating
sugary snacks naturally formammal brain associated with
(20:06):
pleasure. For majority ofpeople, it causes pleasure just
thinking about it,
Morten Andersen (20:10):
I can relate to that.
Gabija Toleikyte (20:12):
Now, you will never ever be able to have that
piece of cake again.
Morten Andersen (20:15):
Well, I don't know, I don't feel very well
about that topic.
Gabija Toleikyte (20:19):
So that evokes pain. So what a new habit evokes
pleasure or pain, we either morelikely or less likely to do it,
if it were treated with painwill naturally be resistant to
do it. So we change theperspective. And I share in the
book, a lot of kind of practicaltools how to do that. But one of
them is very simple. Write downall the benefits for you, and
(20:42):
any other areas in your lifethat are important to you of you
stopping eating sugary snacks.
So maybe you'll feel better inyourself, you will not get a
sugar crash in the afternoon,maybe you will look better and
enjoy your body more, maybe youwill have more energy and be
able to do more podcasts and soon. So we want to trigger
(21:03):
pleasure centers. When we thinkabout not eating that cake, if
you want to extend it evenfurther, you cannot what are the
drawbacks? If you kept on eatingas much sugary snacks as you
like, what would be drawbacks.
First drawback I could think ofis developing type two diabetes,
(21:24):
and so on. So right now as manydrawbacks as you could think of
those together would certainlychange the polarity. And then
not eating that, let's saypunish your colon in front of
you would would actually causemore pleasure and eating it
would cause pain. So in otherwords, you'll be more motivated.
And you'll be much much easierto resist the temptation.
Morten Andersen (21:47):
It's actually interesting, because I remember
when I started readingpsychology or studying
psychology, there was a lotabout pain and pleasure. And I
always felt that it was verysimplistic because, you know,
are we not more complex animalsthan just thinking about pain
and pleasure, but what you'reactually saying is that, that
makes total sense. Because wehave a part of our brain, which
(22:07):
really is only thinking aboutpain and pleasure and
experiencing a new thing, itwill evaluate quickly, is this
painful? Is this pleasurable?
And then they will they will sayyes or no, based on that. So it
is actually very binary, it'sactually very simple. So
therefore having those positiveassociations to a change, or
having a lot of a big why forwhy change is necessary. does
(22:30):
actually from a brain point ofview makes total sense.
Gabija Toleikyte (22:36):
Yeah. And when we talk about motivation, it's
an emotional component.
Motivation isn't rational. Whenyou feel motivated to exercise,
it means that you haven'ttriggered the men, right?
Morten Andersen (22:47):
It sounds like I'm trying to, I wouldn't say
trick part of my brain. But onepart of my brain, the prefrontal
cortex is trying to, to trickthe mammal brain into thinking
something as good.
Gabija Toleikyte (23:00):
I like to use the word educate, because mammal
brain is very simplistic, itdoesn't understand the
complexities. It lives in here.
Now, it doesn't understand thefuture consequences. prefrontal
cortex, on the other hand, ismuch more complex in terms of
thinking and it can understandboth other people's needs, and
also the future consequences.
And you can bit by bit educateyour mammal brain, what what
(23:23):
does it really mean?
Morten Andersen (23:25):
So has there been studies where a person has
been trying to say the positivein a change or trying to create
a why and how you can see howthe, let's call them the mental
part of the brain has actuallychanged activation. As part of
that.
Gabija Toleikyte (23:40):
These are quite tricky studies to do. So a
lot of those implications oflike looking at how the brain
functions, but in order to kindof do on an individual basis,
because there's so muchvariability within habits within
the brain functioning, it's notvery easy to rule it out. And
(24:01):
perhaps it's not even needed.
insights on the brain activityalone are sufficient. And then
you can see whether it createsbehavioral change required for
you has been some interestingstudies, though, showing the
different metabolism ofdifferent brain areas which
which also apply to creatingchange. So with the more evolved
(24:21):
brain regions, such asprefrontal cortex is much more
novel and much more evolved thanthan the mammal brain and mammal
brain is more involved than thelizard brain or the brainstem,
the more energy they require.
Each activity requires theactivation of 1000s of neurons
(24:43):
in prefrontal cortex, as opposedto in the mammal brain. It might
be just a few 100 of neuralnetworks to be activated. So
when we trying to make change,we need activation of prefrontal
cortex which needs energy Wealso need to make sure that we
have space and time for that tohappen. If you're really overly
(25:07):
busy, really like kind ofjuggling multiple tasks, and
really struggled to keepeverything together, in those
periods of time, it's reallyhard to change anything. Also,
if we're going through a trickyperiod emotionally, so if
somebody is depressed, orgrieving something, the change
is also very, very, very hard.
Because the brain is in survivalmode, we need to be in so called
(25:32):
thriving mode, to be able tocreate change. And for that
reason, actually are looking atthe habits which would help you
to replenish and get good, suchas sleeping hygiene, taking
breaks, or habits such asmeditation, mindfulness, and so
on, would increase your chancesin creating change. Nutrition is
another field that can influencethat.
Morten Andersen (25:56):
Okay, you can have a brain in good health, and
you can have a brain in badhealth, so to speak, and the
better health the brain is in,the more easy it is, or the more
likely it is that you can make achange because it requires
energy also for the prefrontalcortex to, let's say, educate
the mammal part of the brain.
And in order to have a healthybrain, it could be something to
(26:20):
sleep well, nutrition, exercise,do mindfulness, and also
generally just be in a in a goodmood and not be too busy. Is
that correct?
Gabija Toleikyte (26:32):
That's correct. Let me illustrate. So
imagine, you come back home, youhave really, really busy day.
Let's imagine that you want tohave more empowered
communication with yourchildren, you come back home,
and you're so tired, reallyexhausted, very hungry, you
haven't eaten for a long time,and your children start nagging
you for something, what are youlikely to do,
Morten Andersen (26:53):
I'll probably be a little bit too harsh with
them.
Gabija Toleikyte (26:56):
And that's normal, because your brain is is
in survival mode at that periodof time, your prefrontal cortex
is not functioning optimally, itneeds nutrients, and Recovery
First, and normal brain isrunning the show on the map,
every single one of us isselfish. We can't put other
people's needs first. Andphysically, we can think, what
(27:18):
would be the most empoweredresponse in that time we can't
compute. It's not possible.
Imagine you you came back, andyour children give to you and
you said, Look, that is a bittoo tired at the moment, I just
need to have my dinner first.
talk to you in half an hour, yousit down, you have a really nice
meal. Let's imagine you havesalmon and some vegetables and
(27:38):
rice. You've eaten your hair youhave to drink. And then you go
to your children. Would yourresponse be different?
Morten Andersen (27:45):
Yeah, sure.
Absolutely.
Gabija Toleikyte (27:47):
Yeah. So actually being aware of where
you're at, and what thingsyou're capable of, might help
you to create change desire.
And, and that applies, inparticular, if any of your
listeners want to create changein the relationships,
communication, leadership style,the most important thing that is
to really observe, where you'reat what your brain is capable
(28:08):
of, at that moment, and to youif it's not a good time to
interact with people. Yes, I lotof problems can be solved just
by that.
Morten Andersen (28:19):
Yes. And I suppose what is making you
stressed what is taking energyfrom you, is different from
person to person. So if I'm justthinking a little bit about some
people being introverted, somepeople being extroverted than
introverted people might use alot of energy in social
relations, and therefore cominghome actually being more tired
(28:41):
than somebody in the sameposition, being extroverted,
maybe have more energy for theirchildren or for the for their
spouse.
Gabija Toleikyte (28:49):
Yeah, surely.
And also, we have somewhatindividual energy levels at
different times of the day, somepeople are really, really good
in the mornings, while otherthem flourish in the evenings.
So just observing yourindividual patterns is very
important.
Morten Andersen (29:06):
And the high level of energy is important
because our thinking I cannoteducate our mammal I, if we do
not have sufficient energy. If Iwas a leader at a workplace, for
instance, and I wants to imposea change on a group of
individuals, I guess what you'vesaid is that one, I would need
(29:27):
to stake the why I would need toconvince them, so to speak about
the positive about this changeso they can convince their part
of the brain that this ispositive, but then also maybe
make sure that there is not toobusy at work with other changes
or with other part of work. Sothey actually have time to do
(29:48):
that. Is that correct?
Gabija Toleikyte (29:49):
Yes. And maybe even more powerful would be to
ask the team members to actuallyadd down the benefits for that
because my benefits wouldn'tinfluence You, because each of
us has have has very individualvalue here. And therefore
different things would feelmotivating. For each each of us
(30:11):
writing down very specificindividual benefit lists based
on our individual values will bemuch more powerful. But also, if
there is really tight deadlines,and there is high stressful
situations that wouldunfortunately, a sabotage
change. Very interestingly, whenleaders use the leadership style
(30:33):
called resonant leadership,which honors relationships
honors emotional needs of peopleprovides with safety, the team
members where, in other words,leaders who truly care about the
members, that actually buffersagainst negative effects of
stress to the brain plasticity.
So resonant leadership, in fact,increases the possibility of
(30:54):
change, even in stressful times.
So that's one of the things Sofirst, reducing stress for the
team if possible, reducingworkload possible, and providing
support providing help for themto create that change, but also
using resonant leadership. Andif lead is to visit, there could
be in work coaches available toprovide the resonant
(31:16):
relationship to team members,okay.
Morten Andersen (31:28):
You just mentioned resonant leadership,
that is a specific circuit ofyour brain that you're using.
And it has a specific outcome,can you tell us a little bit
about what resonant leadershipis
Gabija Toleikyte (31:41):
to be fair to create the resonant leadership,
or resonant relationships, youdon't even need to be formal
leaders to be able to needmultiple brain networks, but can
be grouped into so calleddefault mode network. It's a
really large network. Andinterestingly, we activate this
network when we are daydreaming,we activate this network when we
(32:02):
are thinking about our pastexperiences, and imagining our
future experiences. We're usingthis network. Now when we act
socializing with each other,when we're connecting, not only
at the information exchangelevel, but also at the emotional
level. So this, this networkallows us to be social to truly
other people to be empathic. Soif for example, if you were now
(32:25):
in pain, I would empathize withyou being in pain and alter my
behavior accordingly, the phonenetwork enables me to do so now
there is another network calledtask positive network, which
other type of leaders calleddissonant leaders activate that
positive network is primarilyfocused on getting things done.
(32:45):
So imagine I went to, I couldsee that you're in pain, but I
didn't care, I just wanted toget through the interview,
that's task positive network, wedon't connect with people at the
emotional level, we only connectwith them as the kind of means
to the achieve task. I know itmight sound a little bit
(33:05):
negative, but task positivenetwork is crucial for us to get
things done. So in other words,if I'm sitting at my computer at
work, and trying to complete thePowerPoint presentation for my
lecture, and people keep comingand talking to me, and I could
see that people are strugglingemotionally, it will totally
distract me, and I wouldn't getanything done. It would be nice
(33:27):
for them, that I'm connectingwith them and talking to them,
but it would completelyjeopardize my productivity. So
at the times, I really amimagining my presentation is
tomorrow. So at that time, youneed to switch off, turn my task
positive network on to getthings done. So in other words,
there is time in place fordifferent leadership styles in
different behavior styles, anddifferent brain networks
(33:50):
activated. Now, the mostinteresting thing about those
networks is we can't activateboth of them at the same time.
You know, if you're havingconversation with your team
member, your spouse, your child,you have to think what does this
person need from me now? Do theyneed to empathize and connected
with to regulate the emotionalside? Or do they need me to stay
(34:12):
focused in the task positivemode to help them to achieve the
task and using that whicheveryou think is more appropriate.
Morten Andersen (34:21):
So we have two networks. And one if a leader if
a person, it could be a parentis is using that is called the
resonant network which isactivated, which is a let's call
it a people orientated networkand where you show empathy and
then you have a task or a thingorientated network was called
(34:44):
the dissonant network. And it'sinteresting that one is about
getting things done and one isabout empathizing and and having
good relations with people andthey are two different networks
in our brain. I think what isreally also interesting is that
obviously We can change bychanging our network so to
speak. And we can actually dosomething specific to activate
(35:06):
one network over the other. Butwhat I also think is interesting
is if we consider something likemirror neurons, which is that we
can actually influence peoplearound us which network that we
have. So if I have a resonantnetwork, and I want to engage
with other people, and I feel agreat level of empathy with
(35:26):
others, they also have thatnetwork activated more likely,
if I have that, is that is thathow it works?
Gabija Toleikyte (35:34):
Definitely. So both are resonant and dissonant
leadership styles arecontagious. The brain imaging
studies by Richard boyatzis. AndTony Jack showed that when
people were imagining resonantleaders, the resonance networks
been activated in their ownbrains, when they imagining the
interactions with distantleaders. They became distant
(35:54):
men themselves without thosenetworks. But very
interestingly, the effects onmirror neuron system by resonant
leadership, were stronger toresonance, have a greater
emotional contagion on the teammembers than dismantle leaders?
Morten Andersen (36:12):
Yeah. What do you essentially saying is that
we get infected by otherpeople's brain patterns. So if I
want to make a change, I am morelikely to make that change and
make it stick if I'm surroundedby people who see positive
around this change, or who alsobelieves that this is a good
thing, compared to if I'msurrounded with people who don't
(36:35):
want to change, I don't thinkthis is a good thing
Gabija Toleikyte (36:37):
that would be in direct way, but it definitely
has some merit. So it wouldn'tbe by the mirror neuron system,
it would be more by emotionalcontagion. When good emotional
state where we feel encouraged,believed in having pleasant
social interactions, our mammalbrain is more quiet. Therefore,
(37:00):
it doesn't sabotage the activityof prefrontal cortex. And we are
more aware of what we need todo, we are more productive in
getting things done. And we aremore capable to change. When we
are around people who arenegative critical. We are
constantly triggers the mammalbrain, and especially the center
(37:20):
of mammal brain called amygdalacan actually jack the prefrontal
cortex. So imagine if somebodycriticized you and suddenly
triggered like stress response,anger and anxiety, how rational
Are you at the moment?
Morten Andersen (37:34):
Yes, and I guess the amygdala, every time
that it, it hijacks me, I becomevery irrational, I become very
emotional, essentially,
Gabija Toleikyte (37:43):
all of us do.
Only people with amygdala damageor inappropriate functioning of
amygdala don't listen, peoplewhere amygdala is not connected
to rational centers, and which,in fact, although it sounds like
a nice thing that you know,amygdala wouldn't hijack your
rational thinking, but they'recompletely incapable and making
decisions because they can'tincorporate the desires into
actions. Yes. So that connectionbetween the Midland prefrontal
(38:07):
cortex is crucial for us beingwho we are, when a niggle is
trigger, we can be rational, webecome a little bit like small
children. Yes, you all havedifferent patterns. So some,
some people tend to beoutwardly, while other people
might actually be physicallyaggressive. And all of them are
natural parts of the brain. Sothe one to change that we can't
(38:30):
quite get rid of that that thebrain is made. But we can
actually stop taking action forabout 15 minutes. It could be
jealousy, it could be stress, itcould be anger, don't allow
yourself to do anything. Withinfluence the situation for 15
minutes. There is someinteresting ideas, then in the
(38:51):
romantic couples arguing. So ina john Gottman research lab, and
he was fascinated in studyingmarriages and relationships, he
couples to talk about theconflict, the area of conflict.
And when conversations startedto get heated, people were
getting the amygdala triggeredand they were using more and
(39:12):
more accusative language. Andthey would only past mistakes
people done and so on. In otherwords, they've been been
becoming much more mammal braindominant thinkers, which was
triggering other persons andmake them even more. But what
they've done, very clever. Theysaid, You know what, I'm really
sorry, the microphone is notworking because the couples were
(39:33):
being filmed and theconversations were being
recorded. So they interruptedthe couple and said, Could you
guys just stop conversation anddo something individually now to
fix it? So they pretended thatthey were fixing the microphones
for 15 minutes? And after that,they said, Okay, well, you can
start your conversation. What doyou think happened to those
(39:55):
couples?
Morten Andersen (39:57):
That's so fascinating. So the amygdala
Sponsor essentially lowered, andtherefore they got less
emotional about it and thereforecould have a more clear
conversation,
Gabija Toleikyte (40:07):
they could actually see the other points of
view much more. So you knowwhat, I can see what what I've
just said could be hurtful toyou. And in fact, probably not
even core back. And I deviatedfrom the point. And yes, I know
you want to have a dog, forexample, if that was the area of
conflict, but these are thecounter side to the storm. So
(40:27):
these are all the kind ofdisadvantages, but I can see
your point of view why these areyour advantages, right. So they
were able to get into the otherperson's point of view, am I and
also have much more rationalconversation, which is one of
the functions of prefrontalcortex was prefrontal cortex
being hijacked as just notpossible, we just, we either
(40:49):
want to win, or escape becausewe are escaping in safety.
Morten Andersen (40:54):
Yes, if I have a teammate, I want to give that
person a critical feedback onlet's say, a presentation he or
she gave, then a good way to dothat would be to say, I want to
give you some feedback on yourpresentation, and then allow
that person to have a little bitof space before I actually gave
them that information. So theywere not, let's say hijacked by
(41:16):
that Amygdala by at that time.
Gabija Toleikyte (41:18):
Yes. And also maybe giving a chance for people
to choose, but it's a good timenow or not, or perhaps might be
that giving some information, ormaybe even sending some
information by email, andcalling a meeting after so they
already process information,they could come down, and then
they could talk in person. Okay.
But the other good point is thatwhen we give feedback, we often
(41:40):
tend to point out what negativeshave the productivity or about
the presentation, right? But weforget to mention with things
the done Wow. Hmm. So in fact,and the Gottman suggest that the
ratio should be at least five toone, five positives to one
negative, and maybe mentioningjust one thing to improve,
(42:01):
because if we mentioned too manythings to improve, it overwhelms
the amygdala, it causes so muchpain that they don't even want
to think about, because it is.
So just choosing what would bethe most important thing if that
person that will change theproductivity or performance and
just mentioning that thing. Andother meeting mentioning another
(42:24):
thing, and also learning whatthings the person actually
improved in the recent times.
Morten Andersen (42:29):
Okay, so you have just published a book
called Why the F*ck Can't IChange? What answer is there to
that? What is your conclusion toWhy do people struggle with
change.
Gabija Toleikyte (42:41):
And a lot of times when we try to change, we
really underestimate what isrequired to happen in the brain
for us to change. And I sharedsome of those insights already
in the podcast, but in the book,there is a lot more. And they
are specific to the differentfields of change, and divide
book nine chapters being habits,emotions, personality, brain
(43:05):
health decision making,productivity, relationships,
communication, and leadership.
And look specifically how ineach of those areas if we want
to incorporate change, whatrelevant information from the
brain science, and what are thepractical tools, I share
coaching tools and otherpractical tools, what practical
tools could help me to createthat change. So we need to work
(43:28):
in accordance how the brainfunctions as opposed to against
it, and resolutions in the waymajority of us set them they
work against how the brainfunction, were doomed to fail.
In other words, when we kind ofset up to change everything at
once in a short space of time.
Morten Andersen (43:48):
So if this was recorded a month ago, and people
were just about to make theirnew year's resolutions, which
three advice would you givepeople as they were about to
make new year's resolutions?
Gabija Toleikyte (44:03):
One exercise I really like about setting new
year's resolutions better isfirstly, drawing the timeline of
your life. Take your age, andlet's imagine you live up until
let's say 100 years, and thendivide the remaining time into
decades and set a topic for thedecade. So for example, for me
topic now is combining being agreat mother with doing well in
(44:28):
my career. Managing both kneesis very important to me for the
next 10 years. In anotherdecade. It would be writing as
many books as possible, or, youknow, university professor,
whatever that is, and writingthe titles, and that expands the
timeline, then we don't feel theurgency I need to change
everything. Now. We have plentytime. Even if I was 70 years old
(44:53):
now. I still have 30 years to goI still have things to do right.
So so the stretching Thetimeline is first thing, then
dividing the decade, you coulddo three year segments or five
year segments to five yearsegments. And writing on was the
most important thing for you tofocus next five years, and what
are the five steps to achieveit, and just focusing on one. So
(45:16):
for me, for my for example,career Now, given that I have
written a book, and it's timesensitive, it's actually do
everything I can, to help thisbook reach as many people as
possible, is probably number onepriority in terms of my working,
and just kind of focusing on theactions to do with that, because
when we said to our brain,multiple targets, he can't focus
(45:41):
on anything at once. Okay, thisyear, I just focus on book
publicity as much as possible,and do all the other things I
need to do as well likeUniversity lecturing, coaching,
and, and spending time with mydaughter. But there would be
something where my brain wouldbe looking out for executing and
focusing. And if for somebodywho's maybe health, or improving
(46:02):
relationships, or maybe findinga partner they see, or maybe
changing career, just choosingone topic, and doing one thing
at a time. And there is anotherthing I really want to share
each day, ask yourself, what isthe most meaningful thing today,
I can do just one thing towardsthat goal. So for me today, the
(46:23):
most meaningful thing I could dois to have a conversation with
you and reach out to youaudience, I completed this task
for today, if for somebody isbeing healthier. So maybe
instead of pastry, having boiledeggs for breakfast, write it for
somebody being more physicallyactive, maybe going for 15
minutes walk after breakfast. Sojust choosing one thing. And
(46:45):
once that if you completed that,and you want to know what to do
next, ask what's the second mostimportant thing get done today.
And then second thing doesn'tnecessarily need to be congruent
with that task of the year,because we have multiple
responsibilities. So so thatkind of will help and starting
with the number one priority.
And just writing one thing on todo list for many people help
actually to reduce theprocrastination as well.
Morten Andersen (47:10):
Fantastic. So I what I hear your advice, really
is to break it down into, youknow, take a big goal, and to
break it down into baby stepsand everyday say, what
meaningful step Can I taketoday. And that will help us
because our brain actually fightagainst change. But if we break
them down into small steps, thenour brain is more likely to help
(47:32):
us along that change journey.
Gabija Toleikyte (47:35):
And we have much more likely to accumulate
success. When we do things insuch a small steps, more
success, we accumulate moremotivation, we have to keep on
going.
Morten Andersen (47:45):
I think that's a really good point that you
know that we need to rewardourselves, but also accumulate
success stories, because thatwill leave an imprint with us
that we can actually do this.
Fantastic. So I have no doubtthat understanding our brain
better understanding the area ofneuroscience is a phenomenally
important thing for us, as weget to understand ourselves and
(48:07):
get to understand our change andhow we can change more
effectively, I want to thank youvery much for coming in today.
And speaking with me, I really,really appreciate that. So I
just want to recommend all ourlisteners to to get your book
and read it because it has a lotof insights into you know how
our brain works, and how we canuse that insight to make a
change. So thank you very much,
Gabija Toleikyte (48:31):
Bill. And thank you so much, Morten, it's
been pleasure talking to you.
Morten Andersen (48:34):
Thank you. I think we can learn a lot from
neuroscience when we want tomake a change. In fact, I think
we'll struggle to make any typeof change. If we do not take
into account how we are wired, Itook three things away from my
talk with Gabby. One, weunderestimate what it takes to
(48:58):
make a change our oldest part ofour brain, the reptilian, and
the mammalian brain does notlike change. In fact, they want
to preserve the status quo. Butour most recent and most
executive parts of our brain,such as our prefrontal cortex,
(49:18):
on the other hand, while theylike change, so we must use our
new brain to educate our oldbrain. And only then will we be
successful. Two (49:27):
our brain must be in strong health at the time
when we want to make a change. Iknow it sounds a bit strange to
talk about different parts of ushaving separate health. But I do
think that if we can create anenvironment where our brain has
the best condition to work well,and yeah, let's call that brain
health. Well, then that's good.
So remember, sleep well eatwell, and avoid being in a
(49:51):
stressful state. And finally,point number three. Be careful
about the amygdala. Hi jack,David Goldman described an
amygdala hijack as a personaland emotional response that is
overwhelming and out of measure.
So we're doing something in theheat of a moment. And afterwards
(50:12):
we're saying, what was Ithinking, our rational mind
cannot stop the emotional part.
And we experienced this becausein essence, the amygdala has a
privileged status in our brainso to speak, it can hijack the
rest of the brain if it needsto. So if we feel threatened, it
can respond irrationally. Now,you can avoid this by
(50:35):
mindfulness, for instance, bybreathing, slowing down and
trying to focus your thoughts.
Gabija has made a great TEDxtalk, where she talks about the
two types of leadership stylesthat we also talked about in the
podcast interview, and I willencourage you to check it out.
So enjoy that. Until next time,take care
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