October 7, 2020 • 51 mins
“It’s not really hard. You just have to change your whole life”. We can all imagine how hard that must be. Nevertheless, that was the reality Judy Grisel faced, when she took the incredible journey from substance abuse to rehab to becoming an internationally recognized behavioural neuroscientist and a professor in psychology. She has authored the book, ‘Never Enough’ and given one of the best Tedx Talks, I have seen.
In this episode we look at addiction. What it is. How it affects our brain. And how we break free from it. Why? Because breaking an addition is a major change. One we can learn a lot from. Addiction can be many things. It can be an addiction to your phone. Your coffee. Or your daily glass of wine. I have invited Judy to tell us about her personal story and to find out, how we can break addiction and make a change.
JUDY WILL TALK ABOUT
- What is addiction and what does it do to our brain
- How she broke her addiction and her criteria of success
- Why it is critical not to start taking abusive measures before the age of 18
- How finding new (healthy) ways to release dopamine can help you change
ARE YOU TOO BUSY? HERE ARE THE KEY TAKEAWAYS
Are you too busy? Don’t worry, I have collected three key takeaways from the podcast. I hope it inspires you to go listen.
#1 Find new ways to release dopamine
Finding new rewards is critical to breaking addiction. You need healthier ways to get your dopamine. Find new passions; it could be sport, entrepreneurship or an exciting project.
#2 Denial is the first major barrier
As Judy says: “I thought my drug was the solution to my problems. Not the cause”. Denial is the biggest barrier to breaking addiction. Until you become aware of the need for change, chances are, you will never change.
#3 Early is bad
Our brains are plastic and amazing. But if we start drinking - or taking any other abusive measure – too early, it will impact our brains forever. By example, if you start drinking by the age of 14, you have 7x the chance of developing an alcohol problem than if you had waited until you were 21 or longer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morten Andersen (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
In What Monkeys Do, we explorewhat it takes to make a change.
(00:25):
But change is a broad category.
Some of the changes are small,and some of them are major.
Addiction is in the this isreally hard to change category.
Most of us are not in thesituation that we have to break
free of substance addiction, andthank God for that. But being
addicted to our phone isprobably something many of us
can relate to. And if I askedyou to put away your phone for
(00:46):
the next three days, you'reprobably notice how badly you
want it. And many of you may noteven succeed with that.
Addiction does more than takeover our lives. It changes our
brain as well, and sometimeseven permanently. And that is
one of the reasons why addictionis such an important change to
make. Our guest is aninternationally recognized
(01:11):
behavioral neuroscientist. She'sa professor of psychology at
Bucknell University. She haswritten the excellent book,
Never Enough the neuroscienceand experience of addiction,
truly fantastic book. She'sgiven a great TEDx talk. I'll
recommend you all to see it.
It's called Never Enough. Andthrough her research, she is
(01:32):
looking for the root causes ofdrug addiction, something we'll
talk a lot about today. So withthat introduction, welcome to
you, Judy Grisel.
Judy Grisel (01:42):
Thank you. It's great to be here, Morten.
Morten Andersen (01:44):
Great. Before we begin to talk about what
addiction is and what it does tous and how to break free from
it. I just want to hear a littlebit about your personal story.
Because even though you now havea PhD and your professor and you
seem to have everything sorted.
Actually, you have experiencedsubstance addiction firsthand.
Can you maybe share yourpersonal story?
Judy Grisel (02:08):
Sure, I'd be glad to, I guess in a way, it's
characterized by extremechanges. I had a sort of average
upbringing and was comfortableand grew up in the northeast of
the United States. Myself, maybeI wasn't quite so comfortable, I
think I tended toward being alittle overly sensitive. Let's
(02:31):
say we can maybe get into thatlater. But I kind of at a whim,
drank a large amount of alcoholright around the time of my 13th
birthday. And that literallychanged the direction of my
whole life. So I went from kindof a sweet girl to one that was
(02:51):
very quickly out of control.
After that first good drink,which was really had a profound
impact on my inner experience,my outer experience totally
changed too. And I quickly wasusing marijuana and then
everything else I could get myhands on. And so I went and very
rapidly, kind of in thisdescending swirl, where I was
(03:16):
kicked out of three schools, Icontracted hepatitis C from
sharing dirty needles. I hitbottom, right around my 23rd
birthday, so just 10 years laterfrom cocaine, and which I was
using intravenously living atthat point in South Florida, but
I also was homeless on and offand kind of ended up without
(03:40):
many friends including mymyself. I mean, I really didn't
even like myself so I canunderstand why no one else like
me. I guess this was fortuitous,but I ended up in a treatment
center. This was in the mid 80s.
And at that point, I had no ideawhat a treatment center was. I
said I was pretty young, but Youknow, wasn't so clear, I thought
(04:01):
I was maybe going something likea spa. And it's kind of a luxury
I talked about in the book, howI ended up my parents meant to
take me there, even though theyhadn't spoken with me in a few
years. But it wasn't a spot allthe people had, you know, nurses
uniforms, and it was more like aboot camp for sick people. But I
learned that I was dying, sortof slowly, or I guess it's hard
(04:26):
to say, but I was definitelyheaded toward my own demise, and
that if I wanted to live at all,then I had to really change. I
remember very clearly stillthinking, Oh my gosh, this is
terrible news because I can'tlive with my drugs, which are
the only thing worth living for.
That was kind of the start of myrecovery. I remember one of the
(04:50):
things I learned in treatment,some guy came I think he said it
every Tuesday. He said, it's notreally hard. You just have to
change your whole life. At thetime I thought Come on, but it
turns out that that was true.
Morten Andersen (05:05):
That's a fantastic story if you manage to
get through that rehab or thatspa and get back to university
getting a PhD and you're now aprofessor What made you go that
route of what why did you chooseto go back to university and go
all the way to to research thisarea?
Judy Grisel (05:26):
Well, you make it sound like it was quick and
easy, which it definitely wasnot my mindset at the time, as
you could probably imagine.
Well, first of all, I wasn'tthinking too clearly. And I also
was absolutely devastated. Andif you had looked at me from you
know, across the room orprobably down the block, you
(05:46):
could have seen that I didn'thave many good prospects. So I I
really was lacking insight or amuch but I guess I liked
everything. Except perseverance,which I think is a trait that
addicts have in spades. So youknow, don't tell me what I can
(06:07):
and can't do. So when, when thetreatment center said, you know,
you, you won't be able to liveif you keep using in my own
little dark mind I thought,don't tell me I I'll find a way.
And I had found lots of waysthrough my life, my short 10
years on kind of the streets. SoI thought to myself, look, they
(06:30):
say I have a disease anddiseases, which I know nothing
about really can be cured. Andso I'm going to cure it, and
then I'll be able to use, I hadreally no intention at the time
of staying clean and sober mywhole life. So this is a 1986.
So I celebrated 34 years, abouta month ago. And you know, I
(06:53):
didn't expect to live for 34more years and I sure didn't
think I would stay clean, butBut I thought I would fix it.
And I always had a kind of anaffinity for biology. So I sort
of took it for granted that myproblem was in my brain and I
could see how my response wasvery different from others who
(07:13):
seemed more reasonable, youknow, who would maybe not use if
they were putting their life atrisk and not do so many crazy
things. So I knew, you know, Ihad a little bit of a different
way of thinking about drugs andgetting high. And anyway, I
figured, okay, I'm going to fixthis. And for some reason, and
(07:34):
this, I really am thankful forthis little quirk of my brain,
but I, I figured I started usingabout 10 years ago, but I think
I was only really a bad addictfor maybe seven years. So if I
stay sober for seven years, I'llbe able to fix it, and then it
will sort of even out and I'llbe able to normally consume
(07:55):
drugs you know, like, sociallyconsumed. Um, so that was my
great dream. And I really set toit with the same kind of
determination that I had set tofinding and using substances
that when I look back now, Idon't think I would have had the
energy but at the time, it waskind of like a swimming to an
island across a stormy sea, youknow, I wasn't gonna I was
(08:19):
either gonna sit there anddrowned, or I was gonna make it.
And so I just pushed and pushed.
And I have a very strong will,which is both a strength I
guess, and a liability.
Morten Andersen (08:32):
Yes. Fantastic.
So you've obviously you startedoff getting a lot of experience,
and now you have a lot of what Iwould call theoretical
knowledge. And you have writtena phenomenal book on addiction.
But let's just start with thebeginning. What is addiction?
Judy Grisel (08:48):
Well, that's a great question. And thank you
for that words about the book. Iwill say that the field argues
about this and we change thedefinition and like most things,
we don't quite know But I wouldsay at the core addiction
happens when the debt thatyou've accrued by borrowing good
(09:10):
feelings from the future comesdue. We'll get to that, I guess.
But more more medically, maybeit's characterized by five
things. craving, which meansthat you're really spend your
time occupied with thinkingabout how to get and use and
hide your use and save money foryour use and only do things that
(09:34):
enable you to use so cravingconsumes your mind. And then
tolerance and dependence whichare kind of due directly as is
craving to changes in the brain.
But tolerance happens when youneed more and more of the drug
to get the same effect. Anddependence you can tell you have
when you feel less than normalor less than Well, when you
(09:58):
think Don't have the drug. Sopeople are, say dependent on
cigarettes or nicotine. Theyknow that because if they don't
smoke, they feel a huge amountof craving. And they feel
definitely more irritable andmore anxious and have a harder
time concentrating than theywould if they just smoked a
cigarette. So when the when thedrug makes you feel normal, then
(10:21):
you are addicted. That happensbecause of these three things.
Unfortunately, there are twomore sort of qualifiers about
it. One is that it has to bedeleterious. So it has to hurt
the individual and societyusually. So there's a cost. And
sometimes I say, you know,you're having a problem with
(10:42):
substances if the costs ofyou're using outweigh the
benefits, but I'm verydependent, for instance, on
caffeine, but I don't think it'sa problem because caffeine is
actually not that for you unlessyou're pregnant or trying to get
pregnant. no reason not to Drinkcopious amounts of coffee may
even protect against someneurodegenerative disorders. So
(11:04):
I don't think I'm addicted tocaffeine, just dependence
because I do withdraw if I don'thave it. And then the last
criteria, which is sort of themost frustrating, I think, and
the one we know the least about,but it's the most frustrating
for people who are trying tohelp people get well is that the
individual who's suffering isdenying the cause of their own
(11:26):
suffering. You know, when I wentto treatment, as I said, I was
looking for the spa, because Iknew my life was a mess. It was
really just a disaster in everyarea, but I did not think it had
anything to do with my drug use,I thought my drug is was the
solution to my problems, not thecause. And that's really
typical. If I had a brain tumor,and people said you need to do
(11:51):
this or if I was diabetic, andthey said, You know, I think I
would say, Oh, Okay, I got it,you know, do the treatment and
change But with addicts, we sayno, no, no, you got it all
wrong. And so that's reallydifficult. And I don't I don't
know the neuroscience of that,but the other, the craving and
tolerance and dependence arepretty clear from the
(12:12):
perspective of a brain.
Morten Andersen (12:15):
And I guess that denial is also part of how
you why you can actually have anaddiction for very, very, very
long time without making anychanges or wanting to do any
changes. And therefore you mightalso hide it for from other
people, because you're in denialthat this might even be an
issue.
Judy Grisel (12:34):
It's unbelievable.
Actually, it's sort of arequirement for I think, having
an addiction and then the morethe more you sort of surround
your life or make your lifeabout drugs, the more denial
grows and i i think it's notonly a problem, before we
recognize it, but in inrecovery, I was just talking
with someone yesterday and thisperson is a little younger than
(12:57):
And then to the hospital severaltimes, and social services are
involved in her children. And,you know, she's always
determined, and then I justdon't hear from her. And she,
for some reason, thought itwould be different this time.
And so it's just heartbreaking.
It's really tough. Yeah.
Morten Andersen (13:19):
Yes. So when I read about the 1960s, and I
wasn't born then, but the 1960sand 70s. Obviously, drugs were
also popular, then it'ssomething that is more of a
problem today, or is it aboutthe same level? Or has it always
been? What can you tell us abouthow this has evolved over the
(13:40):
last 50 years?
Judy Grisel (13:41):
Sure. So since the beginning of time, and people
have been taking substances tochange the way they feel and
think and act. What's new sinceprobably industrialization is
using alone. So normally, youknow, in our long evolutionary
history, we took drugs as partof a community ritual. That's no
(14:03):
longer the case. And we'vealways used kind of the best
things we could find. So people,you know, in the early part of
the 19th century, werediscovering stimulants. And then
opiates were popular, you know.
So there are the big classes ofdrugs and they kind of wax and
wane with time, but more orless, you know, it's one or the
(14:23):
other or more than one. But Ithink what's changed since the
1970s is two things. And theseaccount for actually the
increased incidence of addictivedisorders all around the globe.
And those two things are thepotency of drugs that are
available. You know, I smokedmarijuana non stop as sort of
(14:46):
chain smoke did in the 70s andearly 80s. But it was much less
potent than it is now. So youcould do that. The more potent
it is, the more addictive it is,the more Causes craving
tolerance independence so I wasable to develop that because I
smoke so often but if it's morepotent than you can take it less
(15:07):
frequently and get this you knowthe same I guess you could say
benefit. The other thing besidespotency is availability you
know, everything is moreavailable information is more
available. Pollution is moreavailable, you know, we're more
connected than ever before. Youknow, you could take an old
standby like alcohol, which hasbeen used since people first
(15:27):
found out that fermented fruitsand grains made them feel a
little funny. But now it'sthere's so many different
concoctions and even very manydifferent concoctions and when I
quit, so, um, you know,sometimes I'll look and I'll
think, Oh my gosh, didn't havethat many forms of vodka, you
know, just basically plainvodka, which was pretty good,
(15:51):
but it's really stunning. Iguess, that at the same time,
the instances have seriousproblems with substances as
grown and grown and grown. Theattractiveness and the promotion
and the widespread acceptance ofthe substances is grown and
grown and grown. So I thinkthose two are not unrelated.
Morten Andersen (16:15):
So I'm not based in us, but it appears that
in us you are having a bigdiscussion at the moment about
how bad are these drugs afterall, so in your book, you talk
about many different types ofsubstance addictions, you talk
about alcohol, you talk aboutpsychedelics, opiates,
stimulants, coffee, nicotine,but also ecstasy and all of
those things. But it seems likethere is a big discussion about
(16:38):
psychedelics, but certainly alsomarijuana in us at the moment.
Is that correct? That that thereis a bigger discussion around
that and whether it should belegalized and if it's harmful at
all, or is that just somethingthat is federal? We're here on
the other side of the pond?
Judy Grisel (16:54):
No, I think you're exactly right. You're getting
the information as I I think itis. First of all, I would say
that psychedelics are not put inthe same category as marijuana,
for the most part, and I don'tthink that scientists put them
in the same category. And Idon't think that the discussion
(17:15):
is lumping them together rightnow. So we are seeing much more
widespread acceptance andlegalization of marijuana. I
think there's a few reasons forthat. I think that young people,
you know, they want to do thingstheir own way. They don't want
to do what their parents do. Andthey look around and see the
kind of sloppiness of alcoholuse and misuse and they think
(17:40):
that's not really for me. At thesame time. There's been a lot of
market interest in developing amarket for marijuana and
technological advances, the onesthat enabled vaping of nicotine
that enable delivery of highpotency THC, you know, basically
(18:02):
at your doctor's office, I mean,you could, you could use it
anywhere. And so again, it'smore available, it's more
potent. As always, we're lookingfor something to change our
experience. And so people areusing that more often. And there
has been in the US since the1960s or 70s, you know, for good
(18:25):
50 years, a strong lobby topromote the use of marijuana and
it was done in a pretty veryclever way to call to say that
marijuana was medicinal. There'sactually no evidence that THC is
medicinal, but you wouldn't knowit from you know, the medical
(18:47):
marijuana dispensary is I kindof joke that we should have
medical wine dispensaries tooand what's medicine when you get
right down to it, but I thinkmedicine should be something
that is shown with carefulempirical studies to benefit
rather than harm. And I don'tthink that's the case of there's
(19:11):
a terrific paper about a yearago in, I think the Lancet,
there was no medical benefitfrom marijuana and at least two
clear indications of harm. Onehas to do with an increased risk
of psychosis, which is a primarycharacteristic of schizophrenia,
and which is a really disablingdisorder. And people in another
(19:34):
study, think that probably closeto 40% of new incidence of
schizophrenia is attributable tosmoking high potency THC. Mm
hmm. So that's a serious harm.
And then the other one iscognitive impairments. And I'm
really sympathetic here becauseI absolutely love smoking
marijuana. I thought it was alot of fun. I don't think maybe
(19:55):
I was an individual So at riskfor the psychotic experiences, I
found it fun and relaxing. But Ido think that there's a lot of
misinformation. So that, youknow, the scientific information
isn't getting out. Andmeanwhile, it's all over the
place. And I should say, youknow, I hear from people often,
(20:18):
probably at least once a week,saying, I really connected with
what you wrote about in the bookabout marijuana, my own
experience, because they startedusing it to help them cope with
something like anxiety. And now,you know, they're very anxious
and can't leave their house. Sothey're smoking as much as they
(20:40):
can, but they're tolerant anddependent. So it's a real love
misinformation campaign, Ithink. Yes. Okay.
Morten Andersen (20:58):
So you're specialized In, in neuroscience,
that means that you'reinterested in the brain and you
try to find out, how doesaddiction impact our brain? And
what do we know? And obviously,there are many unfortunate side
effects of addiction, especiallywhen we talk about substance
abuse. But I think one of thethings that is really
interesting is the effect thatit does have on our brain. Can
(21:22):
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat we know that addiction have
an effect of on our brain?
Judy Grisel (21:28):
Sure. I think all that we've said about addiction
so far could be understood interms of adaptation or learning.
other organs like the liver sortof learns to you know, if you
the number of enzymes and theamounts of enzymes can go up and
down according to what you'reconsuming and stuff like that.
(21:50):
But the brain is just a masterat predicting and responding to
its environment. There's nothinglike it. Not even a Computer,
it's just brilliant. So in thecase of addiction, what we're
really talking about is thebrain has the ability to predict
and respond to the regular useof drugs. And it does. So in
(22:15):
order to kind of maintaincontrol you can say. So if the
function of our brain is to tellus what's happening in the
world, what might be importantto pay attention to because it's
either good for us or you know,future love interest or some
juicy fruit or something, orsomething bad for us something
(22:38):
scary or dangerous, and the onlyway we could really know if
something good or bad ishappening is if we can tell that
it makes us feel differently. SoI am able to detect good or bad
news and then to respond to thatgood or bad news appropriately,
because I feel a sort of neutralstate otherwise So if I met you
(23:02):
on the street morning and Isaid, you know how you're doing
and he said, Oh, I'm okay, thatwould be your kind of neutral
day. And then if somethingwonderful happens, like, you run
into a great friend that youhaven't seen in a long time, you
would be happy and that would bean indication that this is
something wonderful happening.
And if something terriblehappened, likewise, you know,
going the other direction, butlet's say you're high you're you
(23:25):
know, you're using narcotics,which are opiate drugs like
heroin, and then you would bewalking around on the street
feeling pretty darn good. And soyou run into your friend your it
doesn't really have a bigimpact. And if something
terrible happened, you know,you'd be sort of able to
transcend that which is part ofthe appeal of opiates, but it's
(23:46):
also not good for survival, youcan imagine because you wouldn't
be able to tell good or badthings. So the brain needs to
maintain this neutral okay stateso that good and bad things. can
sort of be put on top of that.
And it does that by adapting. Soif I take a drug like an opiate
(24:07):
that makes me feel warm and safeand euphoric. My brain
counteracts that by making mefeel cold and in danger, and
dysphoric or unhappy so that thenet effect is neutral. And that
way, if you if I run into myfriend or something bad happens,
(24:27):
I'll be able to tell. So it'sall about survival. And the
brain is so great at adaptingthat any drug you take on a
regular basis to change the wayyou feel the brain produces the
opposite effect. And this is whywe were talking about dependence
earlier and that beingcharacterized by withdrawal and
(24:49):
withdrawal from any drug isalways the exact opposite state
of the one you took the drug forto begin with. My withdrawal to
caffeine is that I'm lethargicwithout it. If I drink alcohol
on a regular basis to relaxafter work, then I'm anxious. If
I take something to make me wakeup, then I'm tired and bored. So
(25:14):
if I take a drug to make mereduce pain to feel less pain
than I actually suffer when I'mwithdrawing, so it's always that
case. And the reason for that iswhen you add the brains
response, and the drugsresponse, the drugs effects
together, you get kind ofneutral.
Morten Andersen (25:33):
And it's that neutral state that the brain is
trying to maintain. And I guess,on one hand, I get what you're
saying that the brain is, isreally a fantastic organ. It's
very clever. But on the otherhand, I don't really think it
sounds very clever because allit's really doing is trying to
maintain a neutral state and itwill even become addicted to
something that maybe theprefrontal cortex should know
(25:56):
that it is not good for you butit will still become addicted.
Because what is really lookingfor is, I guess positive and
negative signals to maintainthat neutral state. So, in a
sense, you can trick your brainwith drugs to get you into
another state. And you canoverride that with your frontal
part of your brain, I suppose.
Judy Grisel (26:17):
Yeah, no, it's a good point. So when you first
when I first started using orwhen anybody first begins, the
frontal lobe is making, youknow, helping you make a choice.
Oh, this seems fun. Or manypeople pick up as adolescents
and their brain is organized tomake them try new things and
take risks. So perfect, you knowfor exploring the seas but also
(26:41):
for trying a new substance thatsomebody hands you so the
frontal lobe makes that decisionand in early stages, you know,
is very much involved. But themore you're using that happens,
the more it becomes a habit andthen a method of coping. Which
is largely either coping withregular disappointments or
(27:03):
coping with withdrawal, and thenyour craving and dependence. So
it, it happens very quickly.
Because the frontal lobe is notinvolved in addictions that
much. And there we have thesesubcortical circuits that are
kind of important for habits andcompulsions. And so I would say,
the first time I picked up thatalcohol, you know, I really made
(27:27):
a choice and I thought, Oh, thiswill be fun. And I'm not sure I
made so many choices at all inthat 10 year period, until I got
sober and decided to giveanother way a try. You know, it
was almost like stimulusresponse, somebody would give me
the opportunity to try somethingand I was right away, you know,
(27:48):
in that direction. You're right.
It wasn't, you know, my brainwasn't doing a very good job
there. But I think that it didensure That the drugs work to
less and less well, yes. And sotherefore, and this is the case
with every single addict, yourbest friend is is now the only
(28:12):
thing that gives youconsolation. And it's not
working that great.
Morten Andersen (28:17):
Yes. As you say you build up a tolerance for
whatever drug it is that we'retalking about. So in the
beginning, you need maybe alittle bit and it has a big
effect, but then you need moreand more of it. What exactly is
it that happens in your brainduring that tolerance period?
Judy Grisel (28:35):
So every drug that's addictive, activates this
core mesolimbic dopaminepathway, it's a really small set
of neurons as neuron sets go, Iguess, from somewhere around the
top of your spinal cord to thespot behind your eyeballs sort
of on both sides. And that spotis called the nucleus accumbens.
(28:58):
So people may have heard of thatand that's When dopamine is
squirted out into the nucleusaccumbens, by a drug, or by
chocolate cake, or by a reallygreat kiss, or a terrific idea,
music, it's, it gives you a kindof a feeling of thrill and
excitement and sort of, likeit's really important and
(29:19):
interesting. So all drugs areaddictive because they exploit
that pathway. And what thatpathway then does is it
encourages you to do the drugagain, or have some more cake or
marry the person. So anyway,this pathway is good for us in a
way, it's good for our survival,but all the drugs exploited. And
(29:41):
because we can get as much ofthe drug as we want often and
they're potent, they're kind ofbetter than a human being or
natural reinforcer. And so whathappens is for people like me
and I'm constantly trying to getthat dopamine release the
dopamine releases dopaminerelease, and it gets
(30:02):
insensitive. Just like someonewho eats too many sugars can
become insensitive to insulin,you know, or someone who listens
to their music too loud, theirears don't work. So by I had to
keep taking more and more andmore. And every time I did that,
I would try to drive thisdopamine system harder, and it
(30:24):
would lessen its sensitivity.
And one other factor, I thinkthat plays a huge role is that
this system is especially primedin our lessons. And when you're
using as an adolescent, thesystem is sort of shaped under
those circumstances. And that'sfor good reason because it helps
you decide what to spend yourlife on. You know, I really like
(30:47):
this kind of music or I reallywant to live in this sort of
area or I want to, you know,this is my lifestyle I'm
choosing, but if it's drugs thatare doing it, then It sort of
instantiates the tendency to usethose drugs kind of in a
permanent way. So there'sevidence that people like me who
(31:09):
developed an addiction, as anadolescent are kind of
permanently deafened to thedopamine. That's why it's so one
of the reasons it's so hard tochange. And there's a tendency
toward relapse, you know, alsoin reason that, so if you if you
hit bottom with alcohol, youknow, you might try another drug
(31:32):
because it might activate thedopamine in a slightly different
way.
Morten Andersen (31:38):
So you said that impact to your brain
actually can become permanent?
Under what circumstances? Willit become permanent? Can you
become permanently addicted toyour telephone? Or does it have
to be a specific type ofsubstance abuse? Or what would
you say?
Judy Grisel (31:55):
First of all, I should be a little humble here
because it's hard to do thesestudies in humans. Because we
can't really assess the tone inthe direct way that we can do in
animal studies. But the firstand probably the most important
factor in determining whether itbecomes permanent is the age of
stimulation. And so when you'redeveloping So up until for the
(32:20):
brain sake about age 25, theexperiences you have are built
into the structure and thepermanent function of the brain.
After the brain has matured, andthe circuits are all kind of
laid down and set up, you canstill become insensitive, but
it's less likely to bepermanent. So the earlier you
(32:42):
start using, and the more youuse, the more often and the
higher the dose, the more likelyyou are to have permanent
changes. Now those are permanentchanges in neuro chemistry, the
mapping of neuro chemistry underbehavior is not perfect. I'm
(33:03):
somebody who would argue thatdespite the say, the liability
that's kind of built into mybrain circuits, there's room for
resilience, always. And one onefactor that I think really
helped me. So I've just saidthat people who were younger
than 25 have an increased riskfor developing an addiction. But
(33:26):
I stopped right at the time ofmy 23rd birthday. And I think
this is also an increasedopportunity or an enhanced
opportunity for intervention andfor change. So my brain was
still plastic. And so some ofthat may have come back. But
also, one of the things Iappreciate about connecting
(33:48):
brains to behavior, which isreally what so much research is
about my own and other people'sis that there's, we haven't been
able to do it exactly. So we seethat the brain enables behavior,
and it constrains behavior, butit doesn't really determine
behavior. Hmm. One of the thingsthat helped me that kind of
(34:10):
connects with this is, I had agoal, and I had something to
really strive for. And addictsare sort of experts in striving
for goals, you could say, youknow, they don't, they're not
you're not going to stop them.
In other words, if they're goingto, so I think the fact that my
goal was not my, my goal forlearning, turned out to not be
(34:31):
self destructive, but washelpful to me. It gave me
something to do, you know,wasn't as good as cocaine in
some ways, and I felt that I'mnot gonna lie. It wasn't like,
oh, which is better, but it wasit was something that was
compelling and open ended andinteresting and in those ways,
(34:51):
very much tapping into thedopamine system.
Morten Andersen (35:00):
In popular literature's there's a lot of
talk about plasticity of thebrain. That's something
throughout your entire life, youcan remodel your brain so to
speak. It seems like there is abefore 25 and after 25 in terms
of how much you can change yourbrain, is that correct?
Judy Grisel (35:19):
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's quite that bright of a
line. So your entire life frombasically the time the nervous
system begins to develop inutero, until you die. Your brain
is plastic, it's the brain'sgreatest attribute. It can
change as a result ofexperience. But its ability to
(35:40):
change is really dependent onyour age, your developmental
time. And it's much better ableto change and children than
adults. If I try to learnsomething new these days, it's
so frustrating because you know,it takes me much longer.
Whereas, if you talk to a eighthgrader They are like sponges.
(36:02):
And they are because their brainis in a totally different state
or primed to take in informationand organize the structures. And
that critical periods we talkabout critical periods in
neuroscience and indevelopmental psychology, there
are times when the brain'scapacity to change is highly
(36:22):
tuned to what's going on in theenvironment. Up until age 25,
what's really happening is thesynapses, and the kind of
highways and byways are beinglaid down. Now, after they're
laid down, I can build a littlecul de sac here and there, but
it takes a lot more work. Butwhile they're being laid down,
(36:43):
this is such an important andpotent time for setting up who I
am and what I'm going to do,which is why most people who
develop a drug use disorderbeginning using before they're
18. There's some for instance, Iwas just talking to my daughter
who's about to go off touniversity in a year and I said,
(37:05):
you know, if you drink alcoholto the point of getting drunk
before you're 18, your overallchances of being alcohol
dependent are about one in four.
And since you have a mother likeme, let's see 1 in 3 Yes. But if
you wait till you're 21, so thisis three years, your chances are
about one and 25 Wow. And thatis because before you're 21, and
(37:29):
if you can wait to your 25instead of 21, that's even
better. But because before thattime, the brain is specifically
evolved to respond in a way thatconcretizes your experiences in
your future plans.
Morten Andersen (37:58):
So in what monkeys do is a popular cost
about change. And I wouldtherefore like to talk a little
bit about how we can use ourknowledge of addictions. So its
characteristics and its impacton our brain to say something
about how we break addiction. Sohow we can make a change? So let
me start by asking a little bitabout how much we know of
(38:20):
solving addiction. I mean, we'vescanned the brain for the last
40 years, and we've met the youknow, you know, how much do we
understand about the course andthe cure for addiction?
Judy Grisel (38:32):
Well, I think we understand more and more about
both of those things, fromindividual molecules attached to
DNA, to synapses to braincircuits to whole people and
communities. We know a lot aboutthe latent risks for addiction.
(38:52):
So which kinds of moleculespredict a higher incidence of
problems and we also know moreabout what happens to those
things as an addiction develops,which is, as we say, a result of
the brain changing in responseto chronic drug use the the
field of how the brain canpredict or collaborate with
(39:18):
recovery. There's less known,but I think this is an area of
much research at the moment. Anda lot of what we've been saying
connects to that new research.
And that is that one of thethings is that you can't tell
anybody probably but especiallypeople like me that stop doing
(39:38):
it, just don't do it. That Ithink is not effective, but
having other rewards. So can youdo this instead of that, you
know, that is killing you. Buthere's another opportunity and I
think One of the reasons, manyof the reasons I was successful
(40:02):
have to do with theopportunities that I was
afforded to change. Hmm. And Ithink if if someone is punished,
and then told, just don't do it,I don't think there's any
evidence either in society or inthe brain that that's a good
strategy. Whereas if someone issupported in developing new
(40:25):
interests, and those interestscould be, you know, for me, it
was graduate school andneuroscience, which is very
exciting and releases dopamine,but it could be also in
entrepreneurship or extremesports, but any opportunity to
develop and explore newpathways, because nothing likes
(40:49):
a vacuum, you know, and least ofall the brain.
Morten Andersen (40:56):
Obviously, your personal story may not be a
generalized case, but I wouldlike to just hear a little bit
about how did you break youraddiction? What specifically did
you do? Or at what particulartime was it that you could break
the habits of addiction? And youcould break the the tolerance,
(41:16):
curse and the denial curse andall of those things? What did
you do?
Judy Grisel (41:21):
Well, it's a big question, the tolerance and the
dependence. So the withdrawal,those faded out fairly quickly.
And for each drug, there's sortof a different time course
depending on the kinetics of thedrug, how it interacts with the
body structures. But you know,for the first few days, I was a
(41:43):
little sweaty and a little,having a hard time sleeping, my
digestion was messed up my mydreams were messed up, I was
extremely irritable, and alsothe third at the same time. So
that kind of physical responsefades pretty quickly, and that's
minor, the craving for me topick up. So this idea that the
(42:08):
drug would afford wonderfulthings, you know, either great
feelings or comfort or solace orinteresting day or something
that took a long time foralcohol. You know, it was 14
months before I had a whole daywhere I didn't think, gosh, I
want to have a drink today. Wow.
And then it was just one day andit was brilliant because I was
like, wow, I'm free of that. Andit took nine years for me with
(42:31):
marijuana. I really lovedsmoking weed. And what I mean by
that is, basically I feltdeprived I felt that I craved. I
really wanted to get high fornine solid years that it kind of
faded and then it came backagain, and I still think of it.
Geez, it would be lovely to bestoned. But I'm pretty sure that
(42:54):
I would not have enough and Iwas Want to do it every day? And
then I would not care so muchabout, you know, my daughter's
last year at home or my dahliasgrowing in a garden or any
number of other lovely things inmy life today that I didn't
have. So I don't think that I'mover it. I think for me, there
(43:17):
were two others, maybe more thantwo there is a handful of
things. So one of them washaving another goal, having
something that meant somethingto me to work toward. And even
though as I look back on thatnow, I think that was a little
twisted that I was going tosolve addiction so I could use
that was enough to get me overthat at least the 14 month hump
(43:39):
and probably fairway along thenine month hump or the nine year
hump. Another thing was theresources to do that. I had a
fairly low stress, experience. Ihad people supporting me I was
able to make a living I was ableto afford school I was able to
get a little Toyota Corolla, youknow, that was used, but I can
(44:03):
drive around. And so I hadthings to look forward to. In
other words, there were a lot ofcarrots in my life. And some of
those were put there by otherpeople and institutions. And
then I think that my strong willout because I directed my well
to just, this is reallyaffecting that connecting to the
(44:25):
change, then I would justsometimes do the next right
thing. And when I say sometimes,I mean, many times a day,
hundreds of thousands of timesover the last 34 years. I've
felt like I was at a fork in theroad, and on one side was my
addiction, which I am prettysure would still lead to death
(44:47):
and certainly eventually misery.
And on the other side, you know,the hard work of living. Hmm, I
sort of see it that clearly. AndI have But always chosen life.
But I think I have done itenough and for the short term,
(45:07):
so it really helps me at anymoment in time, I could look
ahead and see 1000 that thingscoming. But I try to put little
blinders on and just look rightnow what is the next right thing
I can do for my well being, youknow, for my flourishing
Morten Andersen (45:26):
Hmm. There were some things that were
environmental, like the supportyou received. And therefore,
lack of stress, you could say interms of getting by the seems to
be something related topersonality, you talked about
strong will helps on thisjourney to recover. But then you
said something really, reallyinteresting, which is to having
(45:48):
another goal. And you said inthe beginning of this interview,
that the earlier you begin tomore permanent, some of the
impacts can be on your brain andyou started pretty early and
therefore One could assume thatyou probably have had a
permanent effect in your brain.
And maybe there is a permanenteffect. But you've replaced what
triggers of how you get yourdopamine so to speak, and that
(46:11):
is replaced with a healthy goalthat gives you satisfaction of
achieving Is that right?
Judy Grisel (46:19):
Exactly Morten.
That's exactly right.
Morten Andersen (46:22):
Is that something we can apply generally
to people who would like tobreak an addiction? Or is that
is there no evidence for that?
Judy Grisel (46:31):
I think it's something we we can and should
apply for people who want tobreak an addiction, but more
importantly, maybe it'ssomething we should apply for
people who are future addicts.
And we should step in now andensure that there are other
goals that are meaningful, andthat there is support and that
(46:52):
we do what we can to mitigatethe stress of finding our ways,
especially for adultlences, Ithink that this is a critical
time that we know that the costfor individuals and for society
in general of addiction istremendous. And so even though
I'm talking about, we're talkingkind of indirectly about
(47:12):
resources here, I think thoseresources would be well spent.
Morten Andersen (47:18):
You said that you have a daughter, I have two
daughters on on 13 and 15. Sothey're just approaching the age
now where, where I have to bevery conscious about about their
behavior and your statistics.
Thanks a lot. And yourstatistics about the probability
of being addicted to alcoholdependent on what time that you
(47:38):
begin drinking and drinkingheavily, really struck a chord
with me. So I will remember thatand probably pass that on. So
thanks a lot.
Judy Grisel (47:48):
And it's two arms, right? So I'll just say so you
want to discourage them fromusing but also encourage them in
finding things they care aboutthat would take them Place.
Morten Andersen (48:01):
Yes, absolutely. Judy, I want to say
thank you very much for yourtime. It has been fantastic to
speak with you and to hear yourstory. I will recommend all
listeners to to read the bookbut also to see the TEDx talk.
It's a really fantastic talk.
And I think what you're doingthe research, but also the book
and what you're writing there, Ithink it's really important
(48:21):
information that I think peopleshould be aware of. So thanks
again for taking the time tospeak with me. I really
appreciate that.
Judy Grisel (48:29):
Thank you so much.
It was delightful. Bye. Bye bye.
Morten Andersen (48:38):
Judy Grisel's story is as amazing as it is
important. She is experiencedand suffered from significant
substance addiction. And she hastaken that experience and used
as fuel to create a personalmission, which is to addiction.
She went through university,took a PhD became a professor
(48:59):
and it's not Now aninternationally recognized
behavioral neuroscientist. Wow,we can learn a lot from what we
know about how to break thecurse of addiction. And by the
way, addiction also includes ourphones, coffee, wine, or even
likes on our social mediaprofile. I took three things
(49:21):
from the interview, one, havinganother goal is important. It is
too simplistic to say that Judyhave replaced her addiction with
a mission of curing addiction.
But it is fair to say thatfinding new rewards is critical
to breaking addiction. You needhealthier ways to get your
dopamine, find new passions, itcould be sports
(49:41):
entrepreneurship, or reallyexciting project two denial is
the first major barrier. Ingeneral terms you could say that
awareness of the need of thechange is what is holding you
back. Jack Zenger that I spokewith in another Episode said
that if you go to an a meetingand say I'm here because my wife
(50:03):
tells me I have a problem,you're not likely to change. But
if you go and say, I'm herebecause I know I have a problem,
you are on the right path. Thatis so right. And three,
addiction can create permanentdamage to our brains. Our brains
are plastic, and they areamazing. But if we start
(50:24):
drinking early, it can impactour brains forever. For example,
if you start drinking by 14, youhave seven times the chance of
developing an alcohol problem.
Then if you then you would ifyou waited until you were 21 or
longer, early is bad. By theway, watch her TEDx talk. It is
(50:48):
really, really good. So thankyou very much, Judy Grisel If
you liked the interview and wantto hear more, please press the
subscribe button. Also, if youdid like the interview I will
appreciate if you would give thepodcast a five star feedback. It
helps a lot for outreach. Untilnext time, take care
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
In What Monkeys Do, we explorewhat it takes to make a change.
(00:25):
But change is a broad category.
Some of the changes are small,and some of them are major.
Addiction is in the this isreally hard to change category.
Most of us are not in thesituation that we have to break
free of substance addiction, andthank God for that. But being
addicted to our phone isprobably something many of us
can relate to. And if I askedyou to put away your phone for
(00:46):
the next three days, you'reprobably notice how badly you
want it. And many of you may noteven succeed with that.
Addiction does more than takeover our lives. It changes our
brain as well, and sometimeseven permanently. And that is
one of the reasons why addictionis such an important change to
make. Our guest is aninternationally recognized
(01:11):
behavioral neuroscientist. She'sa professor of psychology at
Bucknell University. She haswritten the excellent book,
Never Enough the neuroscienceand experience of addiction,
truly fantastic book. She'sgiven a great TEDx talk. I'll
recommend you all to see it.
It's called Never Enough. Andthrough her research, she is
(01:32):
looking for the root causes ofdrug addiction, something we'll
talk a lot about today. So withthat introduction, welcome to
you, Judy Grisel.
Judy Grisel (01:42):
Thank you. It's great to be here, Morten.
Morten Andersen (01:44):
Great. Before we begin to talk about what
addiction is and what it does tous and how to break free from
it. I just want to hear a littlebit about your personal story.
Because even though you now havea PhD and your professor and you
seem to have everything sorted.
Actually, you have experiencedsubstance addiction firsthand.
Can you maybe share yourpersonal story?
Judy Grisel (02:08):
Sure, I'd be glad to, I guess in a way, it's
characterized by extremechanges. I had a sort of average
upbringing and was comfortableand grew up in the northeast of
the United States. Myself, maybeI wasn't quite so comfortable, I
think I tended toward being alittle overly sensitive. Let's
(02:31):
say we can maybe get into thatlater. But I kind of at a whim,
drank a large amount of alcoholright around the time of my 13th
birthday. And that literallychanged the direction of my
whole life. So I went from kindof a sweet girl to one that was
(02:51):
very quickly out of control.
After that first good drink,which was really had a profound
impact on my inner experience,my outer experience totally
changed too. And I quickly wasusing marijuana and then
everything else I could get myhands on. And so I went and very
rapidly, kind of in thisdescending swirl, where I was
(03:16):
kicked out of three schools, Icontracted hepatitis C from
sharing dirty needles. I hitbottom, right around my 23rd
birthday, so just 10 years laterfrom cocaine, and which I was
using intravenously living atthat point in South Florida, but
I also was homeless on and offand kind of ended up without
(03:40):
many friends including mymyself. I mean, I really didn't
even like myself so I canunderstand why no one else like
me. I guess this was fortuitous,but I ended up in a treatment
center. This was in the mid 80s.
And at that point, I had no ideawhat a treatment center was. I
said I was pretty young, but Youknow, wasn't so clear, I thought
(04:01):
I was maybe going something likea spa. And it's kind of a luxury
I talked about in the book, howI ended up my parents meant to
take me there, even though theyhadn't spoken with me in a few
years. But it wasn't a spot allthe people had, you know, nurses
uniforms, and it was more like aboot camp for sick people. But I
learned that I was dying, sortof slowly, or I guess it's hard
(04:26):
to say, but I was definitelyheaded toward my own demise, and
that if I wanted to live at all,then I had to really change. I
remember very clearly stillthinking, Oh my gosh, this is
terrible news because I can'tlive with my drugs, which are
the only thing worth living for.
That was kind of the start of myrecovery. I remember one of the
(04:50):
things I learned in treatment,some guy came I think he said it
every Tuesday. He said, it's notreally hard. You just have to
change your whole life. At thetime I thought Come on, but it
turns out that that was true.
Morten Andersen (05:05):
That's a fantastic story if you manage to
get through that rehab or thatspa and get back to university
getting a PhD and you're now aprofessor What made you go that
route of what why did you chooseto go back to university and go
all the way to to research thisarea?
Judy Grisel (05:26):
Well, you make it sound like it was quick and
easy, which it definitely wasnot my mindset at the time, as
you could probably imagine.
Well, first of all, I wasn'tthinking too clearly. And I also
was absolutely devastated. Andif you had looked at me from you
know, across the room orprobably down the block, you
(05:46):
could have seen that I didn'thave many good prospects. So I I
really was lacking insight or amuch but I guess I liked
everything. Except perseverance,which I think is a trait that
addicts have in spades. So youknow, don't tell me what I can
(06:07):
and can't do. So when, when thetreatment center said, you know,
you, you won't be able to liveif you keep using in my own
little dark mind I thought,don't tell me I I'll find a way.
And I had found lots of waysthrough my life, my short 10
years on kind of the streets. SoI thought to myself, look, they
(06:30):
say I have a disease anddiseases, which I know nothing
about really can be cured. Andso I'm going to cure it, and
then I'll be able to use, I hadreally no intention at the time
of staying clean and sober mywhole life. So this is a 1986.
So I celebrated 34 years, abouta month ago. And you know, I
(06:53):
didn't expect to live for 34more years and I sure didn't
think I would stay clean, butBut I thought I would fix it.
And I always had a kind of anaffinity for biology. So I sort
of took it for granted that myproblem was in my brain and I
could see how my response wasvery different from others who
(07:13):
seemed more reasonable, youknow, who would maybe not use if
they were putting their life atrisk and not do so many crazy
things. So I knew, you know, Ihad a little bit of a different
way of thinking about drugs andgetting high. And anyway, I
figured, okay, I'm going to fixthis. And for some reason, and
(07:34):
this, I really am thankful forthis little quirk of my brain,
but I, I figured I started usingabout 10 years ago, but I think
I was only really a bad addictfor maybe seven years. So if I
stay sober for seven years, I'llbe able to fix it, and then it
will sort of even out and I'llbe able to normally consume
(07:55):
drugs you know, like, sociallyconsumed. Um, so that was my
great dream. And I really set toit with the same kind of
determination that I had set tofinding and using substances
that when I look back now, Idon't think I would have had the
energy but at the time, it waskind of like a swimming to an
island across a stormy sea, youknow, I wasn't gonna I was
(08:19):
either gonna sit there anddrowned, or I was gonna make it.
And so I just pushed and pushed.
And I have a very strong will,which is both a strength I
guess, and a liability.
Morten Andersen (08:32):
Yes. Fantastic.
So you've obviously you startedoff getting a lot of experience,
and now you have a lot of what Iwould call theoretical
knowledge. And you have writtena phenomenal book on addiction.
But let's just start with thebeginning. What is addiction?
Judy Grisel (08:48):
Well, that's a great question. And thank you
for that words about the book. Iwill say that the field argues
about this and we change thedefinition and like most things,
we don't quite know But I wouldsay at the core addiction
happens when the debt thatyou've accrued by borrowing good
(09:10):
feelings from the future comesdue. We'll get to that, I guess.
But more more medically, maybeit's characterized by five
things. craving, which meansthat you're really spend your
time occupied with thinkingabout how to get and use and
hide your use and save money foryour use and only do things that
(09:34):
enable you to use so cravingconsumes your mind. And then
tolerance and dependence whichare kind of due directly as is
craving to changes in the brain.
But tolerance happens when youneed more and more of the drug
to get the same effect. Anddependence you can tell you have
when you feel less than normalor less than Well, when you
(09:58):
think Don't have the drug. Sopeople are, say dependent on
cigarettes or nicotine. Theyknow that because if they don't
smoke, they feel a huge amountof craving. And they feel
definitely more irritable andmore anxious and have a harder
time concentrating than theywould if they just smoked a
cigarette. So when the when thedrug makes you feel normal, then
(10:21):
you are addicted. That happensbecause of these three things.
Unfortunately, there are twomore sort of qualifiers about
it. One is that it has to bedeleterious. So it has to hurt
the individual and societyusually. So there's a cost. And
sometimes I say, you know,you're having a problem with
(10:42):
substances if the costs ofyou're using outweigh the
benefits, but I'm verydependent, for instance, on
caffeine, but I don't think it'sa problem because caffeine is
actually not that for you unlessyou're pregnant or trying to get
pregnant. no reason not to Drinkcopious amounts of coffee may
even protect against someneurodegenerative disorders. So
(11:04):
I don't think I'm addicted tocaffeine, just dependence
because I do withdraw if I don'thave it. And then the last
criteria, which is sort of themost frustrating, I think, and
the one we know the least about,but it's the most frustrating
for people who are trying tohelp people get well is that the
individual who's suffering isdenying the cause of their own
(11:26):
suffering. You know, when I wentto treatment, as I said, I was
looking for the spa, because Iknew my life was a mess. It was
really just a disaster in everyarea, but I did not think it had
anything to do with my drug use,I thought my drug is was the
solution to my problems, not thecause. And that's really
typical. If I had a brain tumor,and people said you need to do
(11:51):
this or if I was diabetic, andthey said, You know, I think I
would say, Oh, Okay, I got it,you know, do the treatment and
change But with addicts, we sayno, no, no, you got it all
wrong. And so that's reallydifficult. And I don't I don't
know the neuroscience of that,but the other, the craving and
tolerance and dependence arepretty clear from the
(12:12):
perspective of a brain.
Morten Andersen (12:15):
And I guess that denial is also part of how
you why you can actually have anaddiction for very, very, very
long time without making anychanges or wanting to do any
changes. And therefore you mightalso hide it for from other
people, because you're in denialthat this might even be an
issue.
Judy Grisel (12:34):
It's unbelievable.
Actually, it's sort of arequirement for I think, having
an addiction and then the morethe more you sort of surround
your life or make your lifeabout drugs, the more denial
grows and i i think it's notonly a problem, before we
recognize it, but in inrecovery, I was just talking
with someone yesterday and thisperson is a little younger than
(12:57):
And then to the hospital severaltimes, and social services are
involved in her children. And,you know, she's always
determined, and then I justdon't hear from her. And she,
for some reason, thought itwould be different this time.
And so it's just heartbreaking.
It's really tough. Yeah.
Morten Andersen (13:19):
Yes. So when I read about the 1960s, and I
wasn't born then, but the 1960sand 70s. Obviously, drugs were
also popular, then it'ssomething that is more of a
problem today, or is it aboutthe same level? Or has it always
been? What can you tell us abouthow this has evolved over the
(13:40):
last 50 years?
Judy Grisel (13:41):
Sure. So since the beginning of time, and people
have been taking substances tochange the way they feel and
think and act. What's new sinceprobably industrialization is
using alone. So normally, youknow, in our long evolutionary
history, we took drugs as partof a community ritual. That's no
(14:03):
longer the case. And we'vealways used kind of the best
things we could find. So people,you know, in the early part of
the 19th century, werediscovering stimulants. And then
opiates were popular, you know.
So there are the big classes ofdrugs and they kind of wax and
wane with time, but more orless, you know, it's one or the
(14:23):
other or more than one. But Ithink what's changed since the
1970s is two things. And theseaccount for actually the
increased incidence of addictivedisorders all around the globe.
And those two things are thepotency of drugs that are
available. You know, I smokedmarijuana non stop as sort of
(14:46):
chain smoke did in the 70s andearly 80s. But it was much less
potent than it is now. So youcould do that. The more potent
it is, the more addictive it is,the more Causes craving
tolerance independence so I wasable to develop that because I
smoke so often but if it's morepotent than you can take it less
(15:07):
frequently and get this you knowthe same I guess you could say
benefit. The other thing besidespotency is availability you
know, everything is moreavailable information is more
available. Pollution is moreavailable, you know, we're more
connected than ever before. Youknow, you could take an old
standby like alcohol, which hasbeen used since people first
(15:27):
found out that fermented fruitsand grains made them feel a
little funny. But now it'sthere's so many different
concoctions and even very manydifferent concoctions and when I
quit, so, um, you know,sometimes I'll look and I'll
think, Oh my gosh, didn't havethat many forms of vodka, you
know, just basically plainvodka, which was pretty good,
(15:51):
but it's really stunning. Iguess, that at the same time,
the instances have seriousproblems with substances as
grown and grown and grown. Theattractiveness and the promotion
and the widespread acceptance ofthe substances is grown and
grown and grown. So I thinkthose two are not unrelated.
Morten Andersen (16:15):
So I'm not based in us, but it appears that
in us you are having a bigdiscussion at the moment about
how bad are these drugs afterall, so in your book, you talk
about many different types ofsubstance addictions, you talk
about alcohol, you talk aboutpsychedelics, opiates,
stimulants, coffee, nicotine,but also ecstasy and all of
those things. But it seems likethere is a big discussion about
(16:38):
psychedelics, but certainly alsomarijuana in us at the moment.
Is that correct? That that thereis a bigger discussion around
that and whether it should belegalized and if it's harmful at
all, or is that just somethingthat is federal? We're here on
the other side of the pond?
Judy Grisel (16:54):
No, I think you're exactly right. You're getting
the information as I I think itis. First of all, I would say
that psychedelics are not put inthe same category as marijuana,
for the most part, and I don'tthink that scientists put them
in the same category. And Idon't think that the discussion
(17:15):
is lumping them together rightnow. So we are seeing much more
widespread acceptance andlegalization of marijuana. I
think there's a few reasons forthat. I think that young people,
you know, they want to do thingstheir own way. They don't want
to do what their parents do. Andthey look around and see the
kind of sloppiness of alcoholuse and misuse and they think
(17:40):
that's not really for me. At thesame time. There's been a lot of
market interest in developing amarket for marijuana and
technological advances, the onesthat enabled vaping of nicotine
that enable delivery of highpotency THC, you know, basically
(18:02):
at your doctor's office, I mean,you could, you could use it
anywhere. And so again, it'smore available, it's more
potent. As always, we're lookingfor something to change our
experience. And so people areusing that more often. And there
has been in the US since the1960s or 70s, you know, for good
(18:25):
50 years, a strong lobby topromote the use of marijuana and
it was done in a pretty veryclever way to call to say that
marijuana was medicinal. There'sactually no evidence that THC is
medicinal, but you wouldn't knowit from you know, the medical
(18:47):
marijuana dispensary is I kindof joke that we should have
medical wine dispensaries tooand what's medicine when you get
right down to it, but I thinkmedicine should be something
that is shown with carefulempirical studies to benefit
rather than harm. And I don'tthink that's the case of there's
(19:11):
a terrific paper about a yearago in, I think the Lancet,
there was no medical benefitfrom marijuana and at least two
clear indications of harm. Onehas to do with an increased risk
of psychosis, which is a primarycharacteristic of schizophrenia,
and which is a really disablingdisorder. And people in another
(19:34):
study, think that probably closeto 40% of new incidence of
schizophrenia is attributable tosmoking high potency THC. Mm
hmm. So that's a serious harm.
And then the other one iscognitive impairments. And I'm
really sympathetic here becauseI absolutely love smoking
marijuana. I thought it was alot of fun. I don't think maybe
(19:55):
I was an individual So at riskfor the psychotic experiences, I
found it fun and relaxing. But Ido think that there's a lot of
misinformation. So that, youknow, the scientific information
isn't getting out. Andmeanwhile, it's all over the
place. And I should say, youknow, I hear from people often,
(20:18):
probably at least once a week,saying, I really connected with
what you wrote about in the bookabout marijuana, my own
experience, because they startedusing it to help them cope with
something like anxiety. And now,you know, they're very anxious
and can't leave their house. Sothey're smoking as much as they
(20:40):
can, but they're tolerant anddependent. So it's a real love
misinformation campaign, Ithink. Yes. Okay.
Morten Andersen (20:58):
So you're specialized In, in neuroscience,
that means that you'reinterested in the brain and you
try to find out, how doesaddiction impact our brain? And
what do we know? And obviously,there are many unfortunate side
effects of addiction, especiallywhen we talk about substance
abuse. But I think one of thethings that is really
interesting is the effect thatit does have on our brain. Can
(21:22):
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat we know that addiction have
an effect of on our brain?
Judy Grisel (21:28):
Sure. I think all that we've said about addiction
so far could be understood interms of adaptation or learning.
other organs like the liver sortof learns to you know, if you
the number of enzymes and theamounts of enzymes can go up and
down according to what you'reconsuming and stuff like that.
(21:50):
But the brain is just a masterat predicting and responding to
its environment. There's nothinglike it. Not even a Computer,
it's just brilliant. So in thecase of addiction, what we're
really talking about is thebrain has the ability to predict
and respond to the regular useof drugs. And it does. So in
(22:15):
order to kind of maintaincontrol you can say. So if the
function of our brain is to tellus what's happening in the
world, what might be importantto pay attention to because it's
either good for us or you know,future love interest or some
juicy fruit or something, orsomething bad for us something
(22:38):
scary or dangerous, and the onlyway we could really know if
something good or bad ishappening is if we can tell that
it makes us feel differently. SoI am able to detect good or bad
news and then to respond to thatgood or bad news appropriately,
because I feel a sort of neutralstate otherwise So if I met you
(23:02):
on the street morning and Isaid, you know how you're doing
and he said, Oh, I'm okay, thatwould be your kind of neutral
day. And then if somethingwonderful happens, like, you run
into a great friend that youhaven't seen in a long time, you
would be happy and that would bean indication that this is
something wonderful happening.
And if something terriblehappened, likewise, you know,
going the other direction, butlet's say you're high you're you
(23:25):
know, you're using narcotics,which are opiate drugs like
heroin, and then you would bewalking around on the street
feeling pretty darn good. And soyou run into your friend your it
doesn't really have a bigimpact. And if something
terrible happened, you know,you'd be sort of able to
transcend that which is part ofthe appeal of opiates, but it's
(23:46):
also not good for survival, youcan imagine because you wouldn't
be able to tell good or badthings. So the brain needs to
maintain this neutral okay stateso that good and bad things. can
sort of be put on top of that.
And it does that by adapting. Soif I take a drug like an opiate
(24:07):
that makes me feel warm and safeand euphoric. My brain
counteracts that by making mefeel cold and in danger, and
dysphoric or unhappy so that thenet effect is neutral. And that
way, if you if I run into myfriend or something bad happens,
(24:27):
I'll be able to tell. So it'sall about survival. And the
brain is so great at adaptingthat any drug you take on a
regular basis to change the wayyou feel the brain produces the
opposite effect. And this is whywe were talking about dependence
earlier and that beingcharacterized by withdrawal and
(24:49):
withdrawal from any drug isalways the exact opposite state
of the one you took the drug forto begin with. My withdrawal to
caffeine is that I'm lethargicwithout it. If I drink alcohol
on a regular basis to relaxafter work, then I'm anxious. If
I take something to make me wakeup, then I'm tired and bored. So
(25:14):
if I take a drug to make mereduce pain to feel less pain
than I actually suffer when I'mwithdrawing, so it's always that
case. And the reason for that iswhen you add the brains
response, and the drugsresponse, the drugs effects
together, you get kind ofneutral.
Morten Andersen (25:33):
And it's that neutral state that the brain is
trying to maintain. And I guess,on one hand, I get what you're
saying that the brain is, isreally a fantastic organ. It's
very clever. But on the otherhand, I don't really think it
sounds very clever because allit's really doing is trying to
maintain a neutral state and itwill even become addicted to
something that maybe theprefrontal cortex should know
(25:56):
that it is not good for you butit will still become addicted.
Because what is really lookingfor is, I guess positive and
negative signals to maintainthat neutral state. So, in a
sense, you can trick your brainwith drugs to get you into
another state. And you canoverride that with your frontal
part of your brain, I suppose.
Judy Grisel (26:17):
Yeah, no, it's a good point. So when you first
when I first started using orwhen anybody first begins, the
frontal lobe is making, youknow, helping you make a choice.
Oh, this seems fun. Or manypeople pick up as adolescents
and their brain is organized tomake them try new things and
take risks. So perfect, you knowfor exploring the seas but also
(26:41):
for trying a new substance thatsomebody hands you so the
frontal lobe makes that decisionand in early stages, you know,
is very much involved. But themore you're using that happens,
the more it becomes a habit andthen a method of coping. Which
is largely either coping withregular disappointments or
(27:03):
coping with withdrawal, and thenyour craving and dependence. So
it, it happens very quickly.
Because the frontal lobe is notinvolved in addictions that
much. And there we have thesesubcortical circuits that are
kind of important for habits andcompulsions. And so I would say,
the first time I picked up thatalcohol, you know, I really made
(27:27):
a choice and I thought, Oh, thiswill be fun. And I'm not sure I
made so many choices at all inthat 10 year period, until I got
sober and decided to giveanother way a try. You know, it
was almost like stimulusresponse, somebody would give me
the opportunity to try somethingand I was right away, you know,
(27:48):
in that direction. You're right.
It wasn't, you know, my brainwasn't doing a very good job
there. But I think that it didensure That the drugs work to
less and less well, yes. And sotherefore, and this is the case
with every single addict, yourbest friend is is now the only
(28:12):
thing that gives youconsolation. And it's not
working that great.
Morten Andersen (28:17):
Yes. As you say you build up a tolerance for
whatever drug it is that we'retalking about. So in the
beginning, you need maybe alittle bit and it has a big
effect, but then you need moreand more of it. What exactly is
it that happens in your brainduring that tolerance period?
Judy Grisel (28:35):
So every drug that's addictive, activates this
core mesolimbic dopaminepathway, it's a really small set
of neurons as neuron sets go, Iguess, from somewhere around the
top of your spinal cord to thespot behind your eyeballs sort
of on both sides. And that spotis called the nucleus accumbens.
(28:58):
So people may have heard of thatand that's When dopamine is
squirted out into the nucleusaccumbens, by a drug, or by
chocolate cake, or by a reallygreat kiss, or a terrific idea,
music, it's, it gives you a kindof a feeling of thrill and
excitement and sort of, likeit's really important and
(29:19):
interesting. So all drugs areaddictive because they exploit
that pathway. And what thatpathway then does is it
encourages you to do the drugagain, or have some more cake or
marry the person. So anyway,this pathway is good for us in a
way, it's good for our survival,but all the drugs exploited. And
(29:41):
because we can get as much ofthe drug as we want often and
they're potent, they're kind ofbetter than a human being or
natural reinforcer. And so whathappens is for people like me
and I'm constantly trying to getthat dopamine release the
dopamine releases dopaminerelease, and it gets
(30:02):
insensitive. Just like someonewho eats too many sugars can
become insensitive to insulin,you know, or someone who listens
to their music too loud, theirears don't work. So by I had to
keep taking more and more andmore. And every time I did that,
I would try to drive thisdopamine system harder, and it
(30:24):
would lessen its sensitivity.
And one other factor, I thinkthat plays a huge role is that
this system is especially primedin our lessons. And when you're
using as an adolescent, thesystem is sort of shaped under
those circumstances. And that'sfor good reason because it helps
you decide what to spend yourlife on. You know, I really like
(30:47):
this kind of music or I reallywant to live in this sort of
area or I want to, you know,this is my lifestyle I'm
choosing, but if it's drugs thatare doing it, then It sort of
instantiates the tendency to usethose drugs kind of in a
permanent way. So there'sevidence that people like me who
(31:09):
developed an addiction, as anadolescent are kind of
permanently deafened to thedopamine. That's why it's so one
of the reasons it's so hard tochange. And there's a tendency
toward relapse, you know, alsoin reason that, so if you if you
hit bottom with alcohol, youknow, you might try another drug
(31:32):
because it might activate thedopamine in a slightly different
way.
Morten Andersen (31:38):
So you said that impact to your brain
actually can become permanent?
Under what circumstances? Willit become permanent? Can you
become permanently addicted toyour telephone? Or does it have
to be a specific type ofsubstance abuse? Or what would
you say?
Judy Grisel (31:55):
First of all, I should be a little humble here
because it's hard to do thesestudies in humans. Because we
can't really assess the tone inthe direct way that we can do in
animal studies. But the firstand probably the most important
factor in determining whether itbecomes permanent is the age of
stimulation. And so when you'redeveloping So up until for the
(32:20):
brain sake about age 25, theexperiences you have are built
into the structure and thepermanent function of the brain.
After the brain has matured, andthe circuits are all kind of
laid down and set up, you canstill become insensitive, but
it's less likely to bepermanent. So the earlier you
(32:42):
start using, and the more youuse, the more often and the
higher the dose, the more likelyyou are to have permanent
changes. Now those are permanentchanges in neuro chemistry, the
mapping of neuro chemistry underbehavior is not perfect. I'm
(33:03):
somebody who would argue thatdespite the say, the liability
that's kind of built into mybrain circuits, there's room for
resilience, always. And one onefactor that I think really
helped me. So I've just saidthat people who were younger
than 25 have an increased riskfor developing an addiction. But
(33:26):
I stopped right at the time ofmy 23rd birthday. And I think
this is also an increasedopportunity or an enhanced
opportunity for intervention andfor change. So my brain was
still plastic. And so some ofthat may have come back. But
also, one of the things Iappreciate about connecting
(33:48):
brains to behavior, which isreally what so much research is
about my own and other people'sis that there's, we haven't been
able to do it exactly. So we seethat the brain enables behavior,
and it constrains behavior, butit doesn't really determine
behavior. Hmm. One of the thingsthat helped me that kind of
(34:10):
connects with this is, I had agoal, and I had something to
really strive for. And addictsare sort of experts in striving
for goals, you could say, youknow, they don't, they're not
you're not going to stop them.
In other words, if they're goingto, so I think the fact that my
goal was not my, my goal forlearning, turned out to not be
(34:31):
self destructive, but washelpful to me. It gave me
something to do, you know,wasn't as good as cocaine in
some ways, and I felt that I'mnot gonna lie. It wasn't like,
oh, which is better, but it wasit was something that was
compelling and open ended andinteresting and in those ways,
(34:51):
very much tapping into thedopamine system.
Morten Andersen (35:00):
In popular literature's there's a lot of
talk about plasticity of thebrain. That's something
throughout your entire life, youcan remodel your brain so to
speak. It seems like there is abefore 25 and after 25 in terms
of how much you can change yourbrain, is that correct?
Judy Grisel (35:19):
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's quite that bright of a
line. So your entire life frombasically the time the nervous
system begins to develop inutero, until you die. Your brain
is plastic, it's the brain'sgreatest attribute. It can
change as a result ofexperience. But its ability to
(35:40):
change is really dependent onyour age, your developmental
time. And it's much better ableto change and children than
adults. If I try to learnsomething new these days, it's
so frustrating because you know,it takes me much longer.
Whereas, if you talk to a eighthgrader They are like sponges.
(36:02):
And they are because their brainis in a totally different state
or primed to take in informationand organize the structures. And
that critical periods we talkabout critical periods in
neuroscience and indevelopmental psychology, there
are times when the brain'scapacity to change is highly
(36:22):
tuned to what's going on in theenvironment. Up until age 25,
what's really happening is thesynapses, and the kind of
highways and byways are beinglaid down. Now, after they're
laid down, I can build a littlecul de sac here and there, but
it takes a lot more work. Butwhile they're being laid down,
(36:43):
this is such an important andpotent time for setting up who I
am and what I'm going to do,which is why most people who
develop a drug use disorderbeginning using before they're
18. There's some for instance, Iwas just talking to my daughter
who's about to go off touniversity in a year and I said,
(37:05):
you know, if you drink alcoholto the point of getting drunk
before you're 18, your overallchances of being alcohol
dependent are about one in four.
And since you have a mother likeme, let's see 1 in 3 Yes. But if
you wait till you're 21, so thisis three years, your chances are
about one and 25 Wow. And thatis because before you're 21, and
(37:29):
if you can wait to your 25instead of 21, that's even
better. But because before thattime, the brain is specifically
evolved to respond in a way thatconcretizes your experiences in
your future plans.
Morten Andersen (37:58):
So in what monkeys do is a popular cost
about change. And I wouldtherefore like to talk a little
bit about how we can use ourknowledge of addictions. So its
characteristics and its impacton our brain to say something
about how we break addiction. Sohow we can make a change? So let
me start by asking a little bitabout how much we know of
(38:20):
solving addiction. I mean, we'vescanned the brain for the last
40 years, and we've met the youknow, you know, how much do we
understand about the course andthe cure for addiction?
Judy Grisel (38:32):
Well, I think we understand more and more about
both of those things, fromindividual molecules attached to
DNA, to synapses to braincircuits to whole people and
communities. We know a lot aboutthe latent risks for addiction.
(38:52):
So which kinds of moleculespredict a higher incidence of
problems and we also know moreabout what happens to those
things as an addiction develops,which is, as we say, a result of
the brain changing in responseto chronic drug use the the
field of how the brain canpredict or collaborate with
(39:18):
recovery. There's less known,but I think this is an area of
much research at the moment. Anda lot of what we've been saying
connects to that new research.
And that is that one of thethings is that you can't tell
anybody probably but especiallypeople like me that stop doing
(39:38):
it, just don't do it. That Ithink is not effective, but
having other rewards. So can youdo this instead of that, you
know, that is killing you. Buthere's another opportunity and I
think One of the reasons, manyof the reasons I was successful
(40:02):
have to do with theopportunities that I was
afforded to change. Hmm. And Ithink if if someone is punished,
and then told, just don't do it,I don't think there's any
evidence either in society or inthe brain that that's a good
strategy. Whereas if someone issupported in developing new
(40:25):
interests, and those interestscould be, you know, for me, it
was graduate school andneuroscience, which is very
exciting and releases dopamine,but it could be also in
entrepreneurship or extremesports, but any opportunity to
develop and explore newpathways, because nothing likes
(40:49):
a vacuum, you know, and least ofall the brain.
Morten Andersen (40:56):
Obviously, your personal story may not be a
generalized case, but I wouldlike to just hear a little bit
about how did you break youraddiction? What specifically did
you do? Or at what particulartime was it that you could break
the habits of addiction? And youcould break the the tolerance,
(41:16):
curse and the denial curse andall of those things? What did
you do?
Judy Grisel (41:21):
Well, it's a big question, the tolerance and the
dependence. So the withdrawal,those faded out fairly quickly.
And for each drug, there's sortof a different time course
depending on the kinetics of thedrug, how it interacts with the
body structures. But you know,for the first few days, I was a
(41:43):
little sweaty and a little,having a hard time sleeping, my
digestion was messed up my mydreams were messed up, I was
extremely irritable, and alsothe third at the same time. So
that kind of physical responsefades pretty quickly, and that's
minor, the craving for me topick up. So this idea that the
(42:08):
drug would afford wonderfulthings, you know, either great
feelings or comfort or solace orinteresting day or something
that took a long time foralcohol. You know, it was 14
months before I had a whole daywhere I didn't think, gosh, I
want to have a drink today. Wow.
And then it was just one day andit was brilliant because I was
like, wow, I'm free of that. Andit took nine years for me with
(42:31):
marijuana. I really lovedsmoking weed. And what I mean by
that is, basically I feltdeprived I felt that I craved. I
really wanted to get high fornine solid years that it kind of
faded and then it came backagain, and I still think of it.
Geez, it would be lovely to bestoned. But I'm pretty sure that
(42:54):
I would not have enough and Iwas Want to do it every day? And
then I would not care so muchabout, you know, my daughter's
last year at home or my dahliasgrowing in a garden or any
number of other lovely things inmy life today that I didn't
have. So I don't think that I'mover it. I think for me, there
(43:17):
were two others, maybe more thantwo there is a handful of
things. So one of them washaving another goal, having
something that meant somethingto me to work toward. And even
though as I look back on thatnow, I think that was a little
twisted that I was going tosolve addiction so I could use
that was enough to get me overthat at least the 14 month hump
(43:39):
and probably fairway along thenine month hump or the nine year
hump. Another thing was theresources to do that. I had a
fairly low stress, experience. Ihad people supporting me I was
able to make a living I was ableto afford school I was able to
get a little Toyota Corolla, youknow, that was used, but I can
(44:03):
drive around. And so I hadthings to look forward to. In
other words, there were a lot ofcarrots in my life. And some of
those were put there by otherpeople and institutions. And
then I think that my strong willout because I directed my well
to just, this is reallyaffecting that connecting to the
(44:25):
change, then I would justsometimes do the next right
thing. And when I say sometimes,I mean, many times a day,
hundreds of thousands of timesover the last 34 years. I've
felt like I was at a fork in theroad, and on one side was my
addiction, which I am prettysure would still lead to death
(44:47):
and certainly eventually misery.
And on the other side, you know,the hard work of living. Hmm, I
sort of see it that clearly. AndI have But always chosen life.
But I think I have done itenough and for the short term,
(45:07):
so it really helps me at anymoment in time, I could look
ahead and see 1000 that thingscoming. But I try to put little
blinders on and just look rightnow what is the next right thing
I can do for my well being, youknow, for my flourishing
Morten Andersen (45:26):
Hmm. There were some things that were
environmental, like the supportyou received. And therefore,
lack of stress, you could say interms of getting by the seems to
be something related topersonality, you talked about
strong will helps on thisjourney to recover. But then you
said something really, reallyinteresting, which is to having
(45:48):
another goal. And you said inthe beginning of this interview,
that the earlier you begin tomore permanent, some of the
impacts can be on your brain andyou started pretty early and
therefore One could assume thatyou probably have had a
permanent effect in your brain.
And maybe there is a permanenteffect. But you've replaced what
triggers of how you get yourdopamine so to speak, and that
(46:11):
is replaced with a healthy goalthat gives you satisfaction of
achieving Is that right?
Judy Grisel (46:19):
Exactly Morten.
That's exactly right.
Morten Andersen (46:22):
Is that something we can apply generally
to people who would like tobreak an addiction? Or is that
is there no evidence for that?
Judy Grisel (46:31):
I think it's something we we can and should
apply for people who want tobreak an addiction, but more
importantly, maybe it'ssomething we should apply for
people who are future addicts.
And we should step in now andensure that there are other
goals that are meaningful, andthat there is support and that
(46:52):
we do what we can to mitigatethe stress of finding our ways,
especially for adultlences, Ithink that this is a critical
time that we know that the costfor individuals and for society
in general of addiction istremendous. And so even though
I'm talking about, we're talkingkind of indirectly about
(47:12):
resources here, I think thoseresources would be well spent.
Morten Andersen (47:18):
You said that you have a daughter, I have two
daughters on on 13 and 15. Sothey're just approaching the age
now where, where I have to bevery conscious about about their
behavior and your statistics.
Thanks a lot. And yourstatistics about the probability
of being addicted to alcoholdependent on what time that you
(47:38):
begin drinking and drinkingheavily, really struck a chord
with me. So I will remember thatand probably pass that on. So
thanks a lot.
Judy Grisel (47:48):
And it's two arms, right? So I'll just say so you
want to discourage them fromusing but also encourage them in
finding things they care aboutthat would take them Place.
Morten Andersen (48:01):
Yes, absolutely. Judy, I want to say
thank you very much for yourtime. It has been fantastic to
speak with you and to hear yourstory. I will recommend all
listeners to to read the bookbut also to see the TEDx talk.
It's a really fantastic talk.
And I think what you're doingthe research, but also the book
and what you're writing there, Ithink it's really important
(48:21):
information that I think peopleshould be aware of. So thanks
again for taking the time tospeak with me. I really
appreciate that.
Judy Grisel (48:29):
Thank you so much.
It was delightful. Bye. Bye bye.
Morten Andersen (48:38):
Judy Grisel's story is as amazing as it is
important. She is experiencedand suffered from significant
substance addiction. And she hastaken that experience and used
as fuel to create a personalmission, which is to addiction.
She went through university,took a PhD became a professor
(48:59):
and it's not Now aninternationally recognized
behavioral neuroscientist. Wow,we can learn a lot from what we
know about how to break thecurse of addiction. And by the
way, addiction also includes ourphones, coffee, wine, or even
likes on our social mediaprofile. I took three things
(49:21):
from the interview, one, havinganother goal is important. It is
too simplistic to say that Judyhave replaced her addiction with
a mission of curing addiction.
But it is fair to say thatfinding new rewards is critical
to breaking addiction. You needhealthier ways to get your
dopamine, find new passions, itcould be sports
(49:41):
entrepreneurship, or reallyexciting project two denial is
the first major barrier. Ingeneral terms you could say that
awareness of the need of thechange is what is holding you
back. Jack Zenger that I spokewith in another Episode said
that if you go to an a meetingand say I'm here because my wife
(50:03):
tells me I have a problem,you're not likely to change. But
if you go and say, I'm herebecause I know I have a problem,
you are on the right path. Thatis so right. And three,
addiction can create permanentdamage to our brains. Our brains
are plastic, and they areamazing. But if we start
(50:24):
drinking early, it can impactour brains forever. For example,
if you start drinking by 14, youhave seven times the chance of
developing an alcohol problem.
Then if you then you would ifyou waited until you were 21 or
longer, early is bad. By theway, watch her TEDx talk. It is
(50:48):
really, really good. So thankyou very much, Judy Grisel If
you liked the interview and wantto hear more, please press the
subscribe button. Also, if youdid like the interview I will
appreciate if you would give thepodcast a five star feedback. It
helps a lot for outreach. Untilnext time, take care
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