October 21, 2020 • 49 mins
Resistance to change is natural. We resist because we are humans. And there is always a good reason when people resist. You don't have to agree with those reasons, but you need to understand them to manage resistance successfully. In this episode of What Monkeys Do, I have invited change management expert and best-selling author, Rick Maurer. He will explain why you shouldn't necessarily try to overcome resistance. But understand it.
Resistance to change can occur for three reasons; People don't understand the change, they don't like the change, or they don't like you. It matters which reason it is because each requires a different approach. In the episode, Rick Maurer will tell you how to approach each reason with plenty of concrete examples.
RICK WILL TALK ABOUT
- The three main reasons for resistance and how to approach each of them
- The importance of active listening and how to get better at it
- How to feel the energy of a change - replace fear with enthusiasm in times of change
ARE YOU TOO BUSY? HERE ARE THE KEY TAKEAWAYS
In case you don't have the time now, here are a few key takeaways from the episode. I hope it inspires you to go listen to the full episode.
People resist for a good reason
Resistance is a natural reaction to change. As a leader, you should always seek to understand that reaction and the reasons behind it. Rick Maurer has identified three reasons for resistance:
1. They don't get it. Lack of information.
2. They don't like it. An emotional reaction.
3. They don't like you. A relational reaction.
Listen to the full episode to hear how you should approach each level. Rick provides us with a lot of concrete examples.
Always start by listening
It is as obvious as it is forgotten. So, let's remind ourselves; you should always listen to the people you are trying to change. You may think you know what they are thinking. And understand what they are saying. But the truth is that we often misunderstand. First, seek to understand then to be understood as Stephen R. Covey wrote.
Feel the energy
We often think of projects in terms of timelines, Gantt-charts and sprints or gates. That's all well and good, but maybe we should also think about energy. What is the energy towards a change? At what level are people energized towards a change? Is the energy positive or negative? Those questions are as relevant as "where are we on the Gantt-chart".
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morten Andersen (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
In What Monkeys Do, we explorewhat it takes to make a change
and make it stick. And today, wewill talk about one of the most
(00:28):
basic and fundamental thingsabout change: how we react.
Seven years ago, my wife and Idecided to make a change, we
decided to move home across thecountry, it was a big step. We
just made new friends in thetown we were living in. But my
wife was offered a new job. Andwe saw this as a way to get
(00:48):
closer to old friends and to newopportunities. The day came to
tell our kids, our oldest shewas eight at the time. And when
she heard us talk about theexciting news, she was less than
happy. In fact, she was as upsetas only an eight year old can
be, she had just started school.
She's just got some new friends.
(01:10):
And she did not want to move. Isat down next to her and
explained how she could get newfriends where we were going to
live. I told her about my wife'snew job and how exciting that
was, I told her that movingcloser to a big city would
actually give her exciting newadventures. And she had cried
for a while. But then she lookedup at me and said, Dad, why are
(01:31):
you telling me this? I know allof that. But don't you
understand? I just don't want tomove on. Now, I had finished my
psychology degree at that time.
But that was the first time whenI really got the difference
between knowing what ishappening, and liking what is
happening. And that is a crucialdifference. My guest today is a
change management expert, and hewill be able to tell me what I
(01:54):
did wrong. He is a best sellingauthor of books such as, Why
Don't You Do What I Want. Andthe classic Beyond the Wall of
Resistance. He's also the fatherto two concepts you may know.
One is The Cycle of Change. Andthe other one is Three Levels of
Resistance. He has worked withleaders from companies all over
the world, including Fortune 500companies, he's the founder of
(02:16):
Maurer and Associates, welcometo you, Rick Maurer,
Rick Maurer (02:22):
Thank you, Morten, it's good to be here.
Morten Andersen (02:23):
I want to start off with something very
fundamental when it comes tochange. And that is resistance.
That's important, whether wetalk about change at home or at
work, or if we talk about manypeople, or a change for one. So
let's try to start byunderstanding what is
resistance? How does it looklike? Why does it happen and so
on? Can you help us with that?
Rick Maurer (02:43):
Yes, by the way, your story is a great story. And
I'll come back to that in aminute. when I really started
thinking about resistance backin the early 90s, some of my
clients were facing a lot of bigchanges. And they would talk
about resistance all the time. Idid a literature search in the
business press. And I found thatthere was a verb attached to the
(03:03):
word resistance almost all thetime. And that verb was
overcome, we've got to overcomeresistance. And I understand why
you might want to say that. Butfrankly, that attitude creates
resistance. You know, I'm tryingto make you do something, it's
saying I want to overpower you.
And whether that's your intentor not. If you're thinking I
(03:25):
want to overcome, that's exactlyhow that other person is going
to see it. Like who died andmade them God. Yeah, that kind
of thing. So I got reallyinterested in that I started
studying Gestalt psychology atthe Gestalt Institute of
Cleveland. And the Gestaltapproach to resistance was
unusual, certainly inorganizations, and that was that
(03:46):
people resist for good reasons.
Hmm. It's so if we want toinfluence them, whether we're a
therapist or a coach or manager,the best thing we can do is to
pay attention to the person andto the resistance. So in the
case with your eight year olddaughter, just the fact that you
made your pitch in a second,I'll say that's a level one
(04:08):
pitch, but for now, you madeyour pitch. And she said, No,
Dad, I get it. I know, you know,I don't like it. That kind of
thing where the person in yourcase the father is willing to
stop at that point and listen,Hmm, that's a big deal. Because
you know, we calibrate all thetime. So if we go a step too
far, if our eyes are open, we'repaying attention. We have an
opportunity to go, Oh, I'mseeing the way he's furrowing
(04:31):
his brow right now. And I cansee the steam coming out of her
ears, but whatever it might be.
If I can pay attention, I have abetter chance of getting people
with me.
Morten Andersen (04:41):
So you're saying that from a Gestalt
therapy point of view, peopleresist for a good reason? What
is that good reason,
Rick Maurer (04:50):
identified three reasons. The first of those is
not psychological at all. Andit's simply I don't get it. I
don't understand what you'resaying. So you talked about, you
know, your background infinance. Okay, I've seen finance
people get up in front ofpeople. And they, they're good
people, they really want toinfluence them well, but they
(05:11):
use all the jargon of thefinancial world and they lose
their audience. I've seenmarketing people do that. I've
seen human resources, people. Imean, we all do that. So the
first one is the simplest one,you know, I don't get it.
Unfortunately, even though it'sthe simplest, we sometimes
believe that is the key reasonthey're not going along. So I
get in my head. Oh, if I explainit again, if I use more slides,
(05:34):
oh, if I use clipart with myslides, they're gonna go, oh,
wow, that's brilliant. It'd belike you showed your daughter
pictures of moving to the newplace. He noticed that I got
that I got that. So that's levelone. That's the easiest one, the
second one, and it's where yourdaughter was, I don't like it.
And this is an emotionalreaction. So it isn't like, I
(05:55):
don't like brussel sprouts. Imean, it's like something about
this scares me that my survivalis at stake. As adults, am I
gonna lose my job? Am I gonnalose face? I'm an old dog, can I
learn new tricks? I mean, just,it's deeply personal. And that's
where a lot of resistance lies.
And there's a couple problemswith that level. One is it's
often unconscious, and it'suncontrollable. It causes what
(06:20):
the researcher Joseph LeDouxcalled an amygdala, amygdala
reaction. I think DanielGoleman, call it an amygdala
hijack, or that part of thebrain, the basic part of the
brain, fam, this survival is atstake. And why that's so
important is if we're in ameeting, and the person up there
is talking through slide number42, and 43. People aren't with
(06:42):
them, because they're worriedabout their survival. And it's
not that they don't want to bethere. If they can't be there.
And there's a lion just aroundthe corner, I can hear it roar,
I got to get out of town fast.
So a big a big problem I find inorganizations is this level two.
And one thing to add to that isif I'm in a meeting, and let's
(07:03):
say it's 75 people, and you sayall right, so any, any comments,
any concerns, I am not going toraise my hand and go, Martin,
I'm having a level two reaction.
You know, it's, it's, that's notgoing to happen. What I'll do
is, I'll say Morten, could yougo back to the last slide of a
question about the budgetprojections. That's all nice,
polite level one stuff. fromyour vantage point, you're
(07:26):
thinking this is great. I askedfor questions. People ask me
questions, I answered it. So youwalk out of the meeting, and
your friend best friend says,how's it going? So what really
well, and the problem is twodifferent languages were being
spoken. Hmm. So I don't get it,I like it. The third one is I
don't like you. This is a bit ofan overstatement. But basically
what it means is, I don't trustyou or have confidence in you
(07:47):
for this particular project.
Hmm. So it may be because of ourhistory together, like I'm a, I
don't know if you know, theexpression flavor of the month,
but I just read a new book. Andnow I'm excited and or I'm just
somebody, I get started withsomething. And then six months
later, I move on to somethingelse and leave you holding the
(08:07):
bag. Hmm. So it could bepersonal history. But it may
have nothing to do with ouractual relationship. In fact,
the story that I use when I'm inDenmark a lot, is imagine that I
was hired by whoever hired me towork on a project, not give a
speech, but work on a project.
And as soon as that person says,Well, we've hired Rick Maurer to
help us. He's a consultant fromthe United States. And he's
(08:29):
written books. Now, what I wantis, you know, this little
cartoon bubbles above people'sheads. You know, I know that,
you know, I want them to bethinking, Wow, this is great,
another consultant from theUnited States. And not only that
he's books. That's not what'sgoing on. It's like another
consultant from the UnitedStates. Who thinks he knows at
all because he's written books.
(08:53):
And so I've got to understandwhen I walk in that room, I'm an
American consultant. And Icannot come in and say, Hey, by
the way, I'm different thanthose other consultants. I mean,
that just adds to the problem,when I've got to do is try to
demonstrate that I'm differentthan their preconceptions. And
if I don't do that, if I just gointo what I think are my
(09:13):
brilliant models, I just they'regoing there. See there? There he
goes again.
Morten Andersen (09:19):
Yes. Yes, that makes sense. Yes, absolutely. So
So basically, you're saying thatpeople resist for good reasons.
And the three reasons theyresist is one either they don't
get it. The second one is Idon't like it. Or the third one
is, I don't like you. You couldalso say that the number one is
a cognitive thing. You can saynumber two is an emotional
(09:40):
thing. And you can say numberthree is a relational thing in a
sense. I know you call themlevels, is that because one is
more difficult than the other oryou have to get to one before
you can get to the next Oh, howdoes that level work?
Rick Maurer (09:55):
First of all, I'm glad you asked that. I wish I
had never called them levels.
What I meant by that is levelone people understanding this is
the easiest one to work withdealing with level two trying to
say, Okay, here's, here's what'sin it for you to, it's a little
bit harder, or maybe a lotharder. And level three, if you
don't have trust it's reallyhard. The truth of the matter is
all three of those are alive allthe time either working for us
(10:20):
or against us. What I need tounderstand when I'm trying to
influence you is to what extentdo you get it or not? Hmm, to
what extent are you leaning ingoing? Wow, tell me more about
that. That's interesting, youknow or not? And to what extent
do you trust me? Or is trustseem to be building in our
conversation? Or is it goingaway? So I actually had an
(10:43):
artist, when I was doing the WhyDon't You Want What I Want
books, I create threeintertwining circles. And I
said, and he did a really niceartist's rendering. I said, No,
no, what's sloppy circles, Iwant to show that this tension
in the interaction so that achange at one level could have a
positive or a negative effectthat the others and it's always
alive, I, I looked at a changeat somebody's project plan one
(11:07):
time, and they had a step fourdeal with resistance to change.
That's good hearted. Butresistance and support are alive
all the time. From the momentyou come up with the idea until
the time that it's finallyimplemented successfully.
Morten Andersen (11:23):
So I guess we have all tried to announce
something, it could be home,we're moving or it could be at
work. I'm a leader, and we wantto do a mega change. And
nobody's really reacting. So youmight go away from that meeting
at that conversation at thedinner table and thinking
Everything is fine here. And youkeep saying, Well, sometimes
(11:44):
people may not even know thatthey're resisting, or it may not
be very visible. I mean, howdoes resistance look like?
Rick Maurer (11:51):
I think one of the things that we can do is try to
step in their shoes. So beforethat meeting, or whether it's
with one other person or 100people and say, what's it going
to look like from their point ofview, I used to use theatre
improv in my work. And I createdthis thing, which I called 180
degree switch. And so I wouldhave people come up with
(12:13):
something in the case that Ilove is my brain friend, Brian
was in my test run of the same.
And he loves baseball in hishometown team had just sold this
top pitcher known as the bigunit. And he said, Oh, I can do
that. And I said, Okay, soBrian, I'd like you to tell me
why that was a bad decision. Andat some point, I'm going to say
(12:34):
switch. And I'd like you toswitch your point of view. 180
degrees, huh? Yeah.
So, so he's going on? Well, he'sone of the great pitchers of all
time, and I license and so weeven let him finish a sentence.
And it's a switch. And it waslike, it was like steam was
coming out of his ears like thebrakes he was putting him on.
(12:56):
And it was, it was like an oldcartoon kind of thing. And he
had the hardest time switching.
So as an experiment as a way tokind of, you know, prime that
pump, that can be a good thingto do. But it's important that
you don't have to do it out loudto say, I want to influence
these people, okay, for a momentby myself in the privacy of my
own office, what are they goingto be thinking? What are they
(13:19):
going to be feeling? And I couldgo through the three levels? And
if I can't answer thosequestions, like I don't know, to
the extent to which theyunderstand it, I don't know how
they might be feeling. And Idon't know what they think or
feel about me. I am flyingwithout radar.
Morten Andersen (13:36):
Yes,
Rick Maurer (13:37):
if you have a high degree of trust, you can ask
people, but just knowing I don'tknow, is a real wake up call. So
I can give you a couple simpleways. One of the big consulting
firms used to what they saidparachute me in. So they were
working on a project with aclient. And I would come in and
I would teach my stuff, I wouldleave and now they're
(13:58):
consultants and the client knewmy model. So it was an old line
business have been around for acentury with old confining,
bureaucratic thing. So I'mtalking to a planning team, it
made up of people from aroundthe organizations about 15 men
and women. I've just teaching.
That's all I'm doing. I'm notthere to work on the project.
And this one guy says, Rick,next week, the bomb is gonna
(14:19):
drop. And I sit and people go,Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, What do
you mean? Oh, it's gonna beterrible. There's gonna be blood
everywhere. I mean, it'shorrible image. And I said,
well, what's going on next week?
And they said, we're holding ameeting. And I go, yeah, this is
an all day meeting. And I go,yeah, so with the key
(14:39):
stakeholders, all they're gonnahate it, blah, blah, blah. And
then they looked at me like,they had puppy dog eyes, and
they said, What should we do?
Now, at that point, I had noidea. I mean, I didn't know
these stakeholders, but they'relooking at me. And I would love
to have said, Well, you know,I've written a book and if you
just turn to page 42, you knowyou that would be arrogant and
wrong. So what I did in this isI'm, you know, making this up as
(15:03):
I'm going along, and I said,Look, everybody here knows
somebody is coming to thatmeeting, right? I said, Yeah, I
said, Don't tell me their names,what's going to be on their
minds. And people startedshouting, not shouting, but just
down on top of each other, therewas a flip chart there. And I
started writing the stuff down,had no idea what I was going to
do with it. And I don't like washalfway through the flip chart.
(15:24):
And I realized I know what todo. So I get done. Everything on
the list was negative. By theway, that's not always the case.
I mean, sometimes it'll be amixture, okay. But in this case,
everything was negative. And Isaid, All right, we just went
over the three levels. Let'simagine that level one I don't
get it is green, which of theseare, you know, level one, so I
underline those, and a differentcolor marker for level two, the
(15:46):
emotional and a different colormarker, again, for relationship.
So now the whole thing is colorcoded. We've done it in a matter
of minutes. So it's not a bigfancy assessment, but it's their
data, and they're interpretingtheir own data immediately. So
now I've got everything's colorcoded. And the guy who had said
the bomb is going to drop, hesaid, Oh, that's why the bombs
(16:09):
gonna drop. And people lookthem. So wait, they said, look
at that. We designed that entiremeeting to deal with level one
issues, timelines, deliverables,where we're going to start, you
know, test plans, bah, bah, bah,bah, bah. He said, very, very
few things on that list. Maybe10% of the things are level one,
everything else is fear. Or theydon't trust us. Yes. And the
(16:33):
other people notice that. Wow,that's right. And here's what
they did, brilliantly. They saidto my colleague from the large
firm, and me, could we take thenext hour and redesign that
meeting? Okay, they did not,say, Rick or Ross, who's the
other consultant? Do you havesome brilliant thing that we
could do next Monday, you know,if they had to ask, we can, you
(16:55):
know, give them some things wethink would work. They didn't
need it. And the fact that theyhad the data and know how to
make sense of it, and they wereable to redo the meeting. And by
the way, that meeting wentreally well. I have used that
notion of the list of always,since that was 20 years ago,
hmm. If if I'm going to work ona project, I got to know what's
on the list, what's working foryou and against you. And my
(17:18):
clients have got to know what'son the list. And so sometimes
you can do it as simply as whatI described, sometimes you might
do focus groups, there's onething I talk about one of my
books called coffee with Joe.
And these people will tell itlike it is, and they're valuable
to have around and I say havecoffee with them don't have
lunch, you don't spend that muchtime in there. It could be
(17:40):
informal ways of doing it. Focusgroups can work, you could do
surveys, except people aresurveyed to death. And sometimes
we want to ask more questionsthan we need to. And so when I
say to a client look atit before this thing, I'd like
us to get some information aboutthe list. I'd like to do a
survey. And I remember the firsttime I didn't want my clients at
all require survey to death. AndI said, Look, how about this
(18:03):
three questions, and it willtake people less than five
minutes. And they said, okay,they went with level one, two,
and three. So I never said, oh,here's my theory. Here's level
one. The first question is, whatextent you understand what this
meeting is going to be about?
level two, what's your reaction?
You might have to make thischange? I'm not trying to say,
Are you going to support it,you're going to resist it? And
(18:24):
the third is, to what extent doyour leaders have what it takes
to lead a project like that?
Yes, we got brilliantinformation. And by the way,
they said, Wow, our head leaderis maybe the best leader I've
ever worked for. And this was inan old style military
organization that did notpromote very many women to
(18:45):
senior positions. So for her toone be in that position and be
widely respected. There's a lotand she's, she earned that she's
great. And so most everythingwas positive. They said, Yeah,
we're scared about that. We haveto make the change. But boy, am
I glad we're starting on it now.
Got it. And the only thing levelthree that bothered them is
corporate headquarters. Okay.
(19:06):
They said corporate headquarterscan make promises and then not
deliver. And so when I wastalking to the leader and her
team, she said, Yeah, they'reright. But if we get them to
come and kick off the meeting,she said, if they're, if they do
it in an email, it doesn't work.
But if they come and say, Wow,we support so and so in the
team, they're behind us. So westarted meeting and they came in
and said, we're really proud andwe're blah, blah, blah, blah,
(19:29):
you know, what corporate peopledo? And the project went really
well. But it was really quick.
Morten Andersen (19:35):
Fantastic. So just to see if I get it right.
So basically, you're saying,well, resistance is real people
resist for good reasons. Thereare three good reasons why
people resist one is that theydon't understand it. They don't
cognitively don't get it to, Idon't like it. So there is an
emotional issue or three. Idon't like you there is a
(19:57):
relational issue and the Firstthing to do is to try to find
out what is the issue here. Sotry to put yourself in their
position by doing 180 feedbackexercise or to do the list or to
do any such thing where you tryto imagine what might be on
their mind. And once you have afeeling for what that might be,
then you can target yourinitiatives to to target what is
(20:21):
the problem. So if the problemis emotionally, we'll talk about
that. If it's, you know,cognitive, you provide some more
information, etc. Is that right?
Rick Maurer (20:29):
That's exactly right. Yeah,
Morten Andersen (20:31):
perfect.
I think over the years, I'veseen that there are people
who've written articles andbooks about resistance. And what
they're essentially saying isthat people don't resist it's to
negative view of resistance isbecause we have bad leaders,
(20:55):
people don't resist. And if wefocus too much on resistance,
we're focusing too much onwhat's not working instead of
some of the positiveappreciative things that we can
look at. What is your responseto those articles? So those
people,
Rick Maurer (21:08):
I don't agree with them? Oh, if you remember, the
book was a huge bestsellercalled Who Moved My Cheese? Yes.
And I was in an insurancecompany. And the next morning, I
was going to be giving a keynotefor them. And one of the guys
over drink said, Oh, so how isyour work similar to Who Moved
My Cheese? And I said, I'mactually not, it's not similar
at all. I am concerned about thepeople who are out there moving
(21:31):
cheese and not telling otherpeople about it. Hmm, I'm not
looking at the people resistingbecause we tend to call them
resistor, and how do we get themto go with the program? I said,
I don't believe that at all. Ithink resistance is a perfectly
fine word to use. And the reasonand I got feedback from people
while I was writing the book,because I even had, you know,
(21:51):
Beyond the Wall of Resistance onthe title, and people said, Oh,
no, people aren't gonna like it.
And I said, Look, my clients usethat word all the time. Hmm. I
don't care what psychologistssay. I don't care what od
consultants say, you know, eventhough that's my profession, if
I use the word resistance, myclients get it, hmm. Now, but if
you use the Gestalt term, thenit doesn't have that negative
(22:13):
valence or connotation. It's away we react, it's a polarity,
we can react this way we canreact that way. And so I don't
see it as a negative how wereact to it, though, quite often
is negative, like, it's reallyeasy to blame those other people
and to me, then I agree withthose people who are concerned
about the term resistance.
Morten Andersen (22:35):
Yes, I've heard that you say that we actually
know what makes change work. Theproblem is that people don't use
them. So I guess from that, Ijust have two questions. One is,
what do we know makes changework? But also, why is it that
people are not using what wealready know? So what would you
say to that?
Rick Maurer (22:53):
There are a number of things that can make change
work or not work, like we don'thave the budget going in, or
circumstances change all ofthat. What I'm looking at is if
we need support, if we needpeople to get energy behind
something and get forwardmomentum, we know what to do.
But often we don't use it. Andthat gets in the way. Hmm, so
(23:14):
I'm making a distinction. So ifyou're concerned about people
aren't going to get on board,then I would say we miss what's
right in front of us. I actuallybeen thinking about this a lot.
The last couple of years, I'mwriting a really short book
right now on this. In my otherroom, I've got a huge bookshelf
full of stuff on change, projectmanagement influence at work.
(23:35):
And as I started thinking, thisstuff has been around for 25
years. Hmm, why aren't we doingit better? I mean, why am I
still getting hired to talkabout this stuff? There's
something that all of thosebooks, including my own, by the
way, have in common, and not oneof them, runs by itself. And
it's like, all of those shouldhave a little warning sticker on
(23:59):
back that says, warningBatteries not included. By the
way, the first time I everpresented my concept thinking of
that way was a year and a halfhalf ago in Copenhagen. So I
really started thinking, Well,why aren't we using what we
know? Hmm. Now there, I thinkthere are some people who just
don't care. It's my way or thehighway. There's a guy who just
died, named al Dunlap, who hadwho ran a couple of big
(24:21):
companies. And his nickname waschainsaw Al, because he would go
in and just do nasty things inor he would never, ever sit
through a speech of mine. Hewould never read my book. I
mean, he would be going that'sway too soft. We got so there
are people there. And frankly,I'm not an evangelist, so I'm
not working with them. Okay. Forothers, though. I think there's
(24:44):
a big, big problem is we treatand I'm gonna use the word
support right now, just toreally mean energy and forward
momentum. So I'm not I don'tmean to do some touchy feely
kind of thing, you know, toreason is even though leaders
say yeah, yeah, this isImportant, it's often an addon.
It's often if we have time, Iremember a friend of mine helped
(25:06):
set up the change managementpractice in a large consulting
firm. He was really good. And Iknow the other people who helped
set it up really good. And Isaid, you know, a couple years
later, I said, how's it going?
And he said, This is awful. Hesaid, the people really doing
the change the project managers,and people from our firm will
call us in when they need abreak. They'll say, Hey, could
you come in and do one of thoseteam building things? Hey, could
(25:28):
you do one of those personalitythings? It's like having pizza
on Friday. I mean, it's, there'snothing wrong with doing any of
that, except I really believethat the notion of support, the
human stuff needs to be blendedin. And I came up with this
image that I hope you like. So Iget in line at my favorite
coffee shop. And invariably,there's somebody there who
(25:51):
orders a latte. I've never onceheard that person say, Hey, I'll
give me a latte, but hold themilk. Because you know, you can
have a latte without espressoand steamed milk. They are the
two essential ingredients. And Ithink we need to think like good
baristas and say, how do weblend the human part into what
we're doing? I was working lastyear with an organization and
(26:15):
the planning team has said thesedreary planning meetings, you
know, they were falling subguidelines, and they would get
so Okay, we've got to fill outthis template, we got to fill
out this. And these are thepeople planning it and they
don't have energy. And I'msaying stuff like, Well, what
about the other people? Oh,yeah, we're going to have a town
hall meeting soon? Well, so thatthe whole human part was going
to happen at that other meeting.
(26:39):
You know, it wasn't happeningfor them, either. I mean, just
so what I've been working onlately, that's what the new book
is going to be about is how dowe blend support in so that's
not an extra activity. To goback to that group that was
actually doing re engineering 20years ago and said the bomb is
going to drop? What they did isthey said, Look, there's level
one stuff we've got to cover.
But let How can we do it in away that might dissipate fear?
(27:02):
Or actually add some excitement,enthusiasm? And how could we do
it in a way that might actuallybegin to build their confidence
and trust in us? So we're notdoing a bunch of new stuff.
We're not adding an extra hourand a half on and bring in
balloons. And you know, we'renot having a motivational
speaker, we're saying, how do wedo what we're already doing, but
(27:22):
do it in a way that's lively.
Morten Andersen (27:26):
In essence, you're saying, we know what is
working, and actually the peopledoing it, also know how to do
it. And I suppose maybe that's alittle bit different from at
home. So I'm just thinking,let's say I want to impose a
change on my teenage daughtersto look less at their iPads,
that would be a big change. Soif I wanted to cut a couple of
(27:48):
hours of that, I know frompsychology that we have a big
body of knowledge about howwould you do that? Well, but I
guess if I asked many parents,they would not know how to do
that. So they would obviouslyhave the support from
themselves, because they're theones imposing it. They really
mean it. But they may not knowit. So if I think in workplace,
(28:09):
does leader know how to buildsupport for a change? Is that
something that they know, do youthink?
Rick Maurer (28:16):
I think they do this? these last couple years,
I've been interviewing a lot ofleaders and finding out So when
did when did support build orenergy bill? When did it
dissipate? And I'll say, Well,what was missing? And they'll
tell me that and I'll go Whatshould should the leader sit
down? And they'll tell me that.
So for instance, I've dividedkind of the energy of change
(28:37):
into four categories, and not toget into all four of them. The
second one is the planning one,often we think that is the first
one. But the first one is reallyhas to do with do people even
see a need for change. But so wedo all the planning. And then
from that we move intoimplementation, and I'm talking
to a leader, and she said, Youknow what happens? our energy is
(28:57):
high, we have a really generallya good leader and a good team on
planning. And then moving fromplanning to implementation, the
energy just drops off. And Isaid, you know, I'm thinking of
a track relay race, where youspend a lot of time practicing
running real fast and runningout of the gate fast. And no
time handing off the baton. Shesaid, That's exactly right. So
(29:20):
we didn't need to talk aboutwhat would you do in that case,
just recognizing that, oh, wejust got to pay attention to
that. What amazes me is quiteoften is if, if we know what the
potential problems are, if wesimply pay attention, like, Oh,
we have to keep people in theloop on that it can help us. And
if it's more sophisticated thanthat, then that's where the
(29:41):
books come in. That's whereconsulting firms come in.
Morten Andersen (29:46):
Yes,
Rick Maurer (29:46):
but but I've really been, I've been amazed and
delighted at how often leaderswill say, Alright, here's the
places where energy drops out.
I've identified I think 22 ofthose places right now. And then
I'll say, Well, why why did thathappen? But what could they have
done? And they don't even haveto think about?
Morten Andersen (30:04):
Yes, that's actually a really interesting
concept about thinking aboutenergy and maybe even measuring
energy instead of Gantt charts.
And where are we in a projectplan. So measuring energy, I'm
just reading right now our book,The Power of Full Engagement by
Jim Loehr. And he's talkingabout measuring energy rather
than managing time. And I thinkthat is a really interesting
(30:26):
concept about how you can howyou can do that on a project as
well. So one thing I suppose isthe same whether we're talking
about a work or a private changeis that trust is important. And
this is really level three inyour three level resistance. And
trust is one of those thingsthat if the people that you're
(30:48):
proposing a change to if theytrust you, then the whole thing
is just a lot easier. And atwork, I suppose that is a
leader, often, at least, athome, it can be a mom or dad or,
you know, in other times it canbe a friend or a brother. So
trust is just a very essential,very important ingredient. Now,
can you tell me a little bitabout you know how important
(31:11):
trust is and also how you buildtrust as a person. And I'm
actually using the word personrather than a leader here. So
it's more attached to not to arole, but to a person as opposed
to?
Rick Maurer (31:24):
Well, first of all, I agree with you about how
critically important it is. Andoften, we allow our ideas and
our plans to be the thing thatwe we lead with whether it's two
teenagers talking to each other,or a parent and our teenager or
you know what it is, we get socaught up in our own ideas, that
(31:47):
we just think the brilliance ofthat idea, or the need for that
idea is so strong, that we don'teven think about the trust
issue. Hmm. So I know when I'mtraveling outside the US that
that trust is going to be anissue. So I need to pay
attention to it. Mm hmm. Youknow, I haven't had a chance to
talk to everybody who's going tobe working with me, but I can
assume that they have somepreconceptions about American
(32:09):
consultants, because they workedwith them, that they might be
thinking, this guy's going to bearrogant, he's going to have all
the answers, the answers aregoing to be bad. I mean, all of
that. So one of the things thatI could do is, and this is a
place where I noticed that I'mdifferent than a lot of
consultants only because Ithought about it, consultants
will often come in, and theywant to show you how good they
(32:31):
are. And so they show you theirmodel, and, you know, a leader
does that anybody with an ideathat does that says, Oh, hey,
here's this great thing. And itactually works better to start
by using their data. Hmm, worksa whole lot better for me, if
I'm going to be working in anorganization to say, you know,
in preparation for today, youknow, I sent out that two
question survey. And I reallyappreciate your responses. And
(32:55):
you told me about two big thing,themes that are standing out.
It's I'm giving them back totheir old words, okay. And I'm
maybe using a PowerPoint slide.
I'm not doing a big slideshow,but I'm saying I got really
captivated by. So now I'mgetting captivated by their
stuff I'm trying to show I'mreally interested in their
stuff, and then maybe go intowhat else happened. A big thing
(33:18):
n building trust, I think is sizing moments of possibility. A
ter 9/11, a number of ourovernment agencies here in the
tate, there was a decision thathey'll all become one large
rganization called theepartment of Homeland Security.
was working with one of thoseittle organizations decision
asn't been made yet. But I'morking with this one
(33:40):
rganization. And they invitede to fly to San Francisco,
ecause all the senior leadersere having a meeting. Okay, so
live in Washington, DC area.
o I fly across the country. Andt was just a regular yearly
eeting the senior leaders, andhappen to turn on TV. And
hile I was getting ready, andNN, they had breaking news on
(34:02):
verything they do is breakingews. But they they had this
reaking news, and they said oh,nd they said the name of this
rganization has now beenisbanded and will become part
f the selector organization. Sowhy why it's interesting. So I
alled my client, and he said,eah, I said, I had to fly home
ast night because of this. Ande said, but I said, I don't
(34:24):
ven know if it's appropriatehat I go ahead. So I'm trying
o say what's the energy? Andnd I said, Look, I people are
oing to be so distracted byhis. I mean, it's going to be
evel two survival stuff, huh? Ion't want to waste their time.
nd he said, I trust you, right.
f you decide that you shouldn'to it, they'll do it. But I'd
ike you to go ahead, I thinko. I get down to the conference
oom. And this is before cellhones, smartphones, so people
(34:46):
ept going out into the hall toee the TV monitors to see what
as going on. So the first tworesenters were in house people
nd they I don't think theyhanged a word of their
resence. And that they had hadone. So it was just stuff that
as just, it was well thoughtut. But it had nothing to do
ith where the audience was. Sond I'm just watching this, get
(35:08):
break, they now introduced me.
nd I get up and I said, oncegain, I'm, I'm thinking this
hrough in real time. Okay, Iid not have in my kit bag. Oh,
his is this is technique number2. And I said, folks, what I'd
ike to do is just talk forike, two, three minutes, tell
(35:28):
ou what I plan to cover andind out. Does that make any
ense? So, and I said, Is thatkay? So I checked with that,
ou know, and they said, Yeah,o I said, Okay, so here are the
ind of things I'll be coveringah, bah, bah, bah. And I said,
ell, you just turn to theerson next to you, and say,
his is how we want to use ourime, you know, and I was
repared for any answer theyame up with, well, the place
(35:51):
s, first of all, people arectually getting to talk to each
ther. It's the first time inhe morning, we got to talk to
ach other, except on breaks.
nd it was just, I mean, it waseally vibrant. And, and I had
o idea what they're gonna say,ou know, call it back together.
nd I said, so what do you say?
hey said, Oh, we need this nowore than ever, because, and I
aid, Okay, great. We talkedbout how I might adapt it, and
(36:12):
hen I went ahead, but they wereith me. So it's a group that
idn't know me. I'm an outsidero their organization. But I
hink, by the way, I can tellou stories about when I blew
t. So this is that
Morten Andersen (36:24):
wow. No, no, no. And I guess it's a great
story about when people do notknow you, how do you build
trust, and the two examples thatyou gave, one was to sort of use
their example. So use theirwords. So it wasn't your agenda.
But it was really what was ontheir mind, I thought that was a
great example. And anotherexample was to make sure that
(36:47):
you always speak into the rightcontext. So and as you could see
that the context has changed.
Then you also just took atimeout and said, I can see the
context has changed. What do youthink we should do now? And
those are two, I think,incredibly powerful ways to
build trust with people youdon't know. And I suppose, when
there are people that you, let'ssay that they know you very
(37:08):
well, and you do not have trust,I'm just thinking of an example.
Right now. It's literally justmade up. But let's say that, for
instance, that my daughter sheplays in the school replay, and
she every six months, she putson a show with a school friends.
And every time I say I'll showup, and I'll never do. So I'm a
father who does not show up forthe school plays, and she has
(37:30):
very little trust in me. Now,you might say, Well, how do I
build trust with her? Well, thefirst thing is to promise her
that I'll come and then show up,of course. But does that mean
that she will trust me? And nowI'll be the father who always
shows up? No, of course not. Iwas the father that did that
once, right. So the way to buildtrust is to have trustworthy
behavior and do it again, andagain, and again and again,
(37:53):
until it is installed withinpeople. So I think those
examples that you gave, and thisone sort of tells a little bit
about, also, the trust is a hardthing to build. But it is
essential if you want to have agood dialogue with people.
(38:18):
In what monkeys do, it's a it'sa podcast about change. And I
would therefore like to justtalk a little bit about how we
can tap into your knowledge andexpertise to understand how to
use this to make a change. Andyou've already given a lot of
examples. I think that'sphenomenal. And I'll just take
one sort of very concreteexample that I know many
workplaces are facing right now.
So imagine that you areresponsible for a group in your
(38:41):
company. And it is to make achange on how you can work and
how you can change work as aresult of COVID-19. So the
group, let's say it's 40 people,they in the future will now be
working three days in the officeand two days at home, they'll
have shared desks at the office,instead of having a fixed desk
(39:02):
will now have shared desks, willusing soon for all of our
meetings. And there are newprocedures for hand washing,
etc, etc. So a lot of smallchanges, which in total, will
basically change the way peoplework. Know, the CEO has
announced the change and whyit's necessary. But as soon as
the people are returned back tothe desks, five people will
(39:23):
start to complain that theycannot work from home because
they have no desk space at home.
Five will complain that theywant this fixed desk they don't
like the the variable desksarrangement, and many are
concerned if it's a child evensafe to be at work. If I'm
responsible for this group ofpeople, what what should I do
(39:44):
What is important in thatsituation? What in your
experience works? Well, in thatcase?
Rick Maurer (39:51):
First of all, there's not a neat, tidy answer
that I have. But I think thefirst thing that that leader of
a group of 40 needs to do isdemonstrate that he or she is
passionately listening for theconcerns. And so if let's say,
somebody says I don't, I don'tlike sharing a desk, why don't
we use this desk here, as theleader of that group? I think
(40:14):
what's critical is that youunderstand what they're saying,
and why they're saying it. Butoften, we think we got to make a
promise right now, or we've gotto tell them why they're wrong
right now. And I would say, whenpeople feel like they've been
listened to, and I'm not talkingabout a manipulative thing here,
but people really feel taken intaking them via the wrong phrase
(40:36):
that people go, Wow, he gets it,she gets it, or better yet, she
gets me is a big thing, it opensup the door to conversation.
Hmm. So there might bepossibility of conversation,
say, Look, my hands are kind oftied right now, as a leader,
but, you know, here's where wehave a little bit of play, would
you work with me, let me giveyou an example that that might
(40:59):
fit. I was working in a healthcare organization, and there's a
thing in some of our, that'slegal in some of our states and
not in others. And that's thatunskilled workers can take on
simple nursing tasks for drawingblood changing a simple wound
dressing, that sort of thing.
And this hospital had made anexecutive decision, we're gonna
(41:19):
do that. We're gonna, we'regonna hire these people. And I
was talking to the head ofnursing, who's just one of my
all time favorite clients. Andshe said, You know, my nurses
are really not going to likethis a lot. She said, but it's
an executive decision. I'm partof the executive team I'm with
and she said, I don't want toget up in front of 350, nurses
and talk, because she said,basically, I'll be talking, and
(41:42):
they'll be listening. And shesaid, Could you help me design
something where we're doing, youknow, work can be more of a
conversation. And so we did. Itwas like 90 minute meetings,
maximum 30 people. And the basicthing is, she would get up, and
her assistant would get up, andthey'd say, look, here's the
decision that's been made.
(42:03):
Here's what it's going to start,here's where it's gonna start.
It was real clear, that's notnegotiable. Okay. But then she
said, you know, but I reallylike to hear, you know, your
reactions to this, like, isthere a way that we can do this
and make it work for all of us?
Yes. And in the first meeting,we had 11 of these meetings over
a three day period. And I toldher, I said, this is a real
(42:24):
mistake. I mean, you know, bythe 10th meeting, you are going
to be so burned out that you'regoing to go by here, that stupid
question again. And she said, Iknow that's a risk, but we got
to take it. She was sobrilliant. I mean, by the end of
11th, she was still fresh. Sothe first meeting, we get done,
we're now be breathing. And shesaid, How do you think it went?
And I said, Well, they asked alot of level one questions. You
(42:46):
gave a lot of level one answers,like, when will that be
starting? Well, that'd be onJuly 15. How you know, what
department? And I said, That'snot why we're here. I don't
think why she said, I thinkthey're afraid. So what are they
afraid of their jobs? I said,Okay, by all means, answer their
level one questions, but thenspeculate. So in the next
meeting, everybody knew she wasa trained nurse herself. So
(43:08):
people started saying, well,when will that July 15 be happy
thing happened to all that'd beon July 15. You know, that sort
of. And I remember she took astep forward, and said, you
know, if I was in your shoesright now, I'd be scared. And
people saw bodies move. And shesaid, You know, there's
(43:30):
absolutely no guarantee that Ican give that. And it was and
we're in a competitivemarketplace. There are a lot of
hospitals around. But I'mwondering, is there a way that
we could do this, where weactually are strengthening our
employment possibilities, so Ican't make a promise when any of
you be willing to work with me?
(43:50):
So here's where it realized. Wecould relate directly to that.
And once again, she's not makingprofits. She's saying, Would you
work with me? And she then overthe course, means her two other
things like that. One was fromlicensed nurses, they said, if
these people mess up,it's my license.
It's in jeopardy. And I remembershe said, You know, I never
thought of that. You'reabsolutely right. Would you be
(44:12):
willing to work with me and seehow can we give them the
training and support they need?
So she was always using whatcould have been in your face
resistance and saying, is therea way? She's not making promise?
But is there a way that we couldwork together? And I could see
that being a thing you could doface to face or virtually? Yes,
I would rather do it in smallergroups rather than off 45 at
(44:34):
once, but
Morten Andersen (44:37):
and you you point to a fantastically
important thing, which is tolisten, I almost feel compelled
to suggest to you that youshould add a level zero to your
three levels of resistance,which is I'm not being heard,
because that's almost easierthan giving the right answers
that is just sitting down. Havea cup of coffee and say I'm
(44:59):
listening A lot of resistancewill actually, you don't even
have to explain something. Youdon't even have to promise
anything. But some resistance.
Not all, of course, but someresistance will actually go away
if people just being hurt. Sothat's a great, great thing to
say, on what monkeys do wealways end up with do's and
don'ts. And I sort of asked if,if a listener is faced with
(45:21):
imposing a change on somebody,what three advice would you
give, and you've actually justgiven the first two, which is
the first one is to listen, andI really want to stick with
that, because that's aphenomenal advice. And the other
one was to engage, see if youcan work with that person, and
find solutions within theboundaries of what is
negotiable? What would the thirdone be if you should come with
(45:44):
three advice?
Rick Maurer (45:47):
Well, let's just say one more thing about the
second one, is it's reallyimportant if you're going to
engage with people about so howcould we do this better than
that the boundaries are realclear, okay, fact that we're
going to be moving headquartersto Brussels, that's a done deal.
It's got to be within ourcontrol to do something, or
else, we could spend a lot oftime talking about this system
(46:10):
and that, and people just, itjust drains energy. So a very
big thing is the ability to seethe world through the eyes of
the people who you're trying toinfluence that model, the level
one, level two, and level three,helps me a lot. And it helps my
clients. And if they want to adda level zero, fine. I don't
(46:33):
care. But but it's that we havesome way of going, Oh, yeah, if
I was in their shoes, I thinkthat allows us to bring humanity
into the mix.
Morten Andersen (46:43):
Fantastic.
Thank you for all of yourinsights, and especially all of
the examples I felt that wasthey were really, really good.
So thanks a lot for your timeand for taking the time to do
this interview, Rick.
Rick Maurer (46:54):
Oh, it's a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.
Thanks. Thank you.
Morten Andersen (47:01):
What a great conversation with Rick, I
learned a lot from the interviewand took in particular three
things away with me. One, peopleresist for a good reason. If
you're trying to change someoneelse, you should expect the
reaction. often they're happyand will embrace the change. But
people may also resist becausethey're bad, or that there's
(47:24):
something wrong with them. Thinkof it as a natural reaction for
them in that particular case. Soinstead, try to understand that
their reaction makes sense fromtheir point of view, there is a
good reason. And in fact, thereare three good reasons for why
people might resist one, theydon't get it. So it's a lack of
(47:44):
information. Two, they don'tlike it, it's an emotional
reaction. And three, they don'tlike you, relational reaction.
Second point, always start bylistening. It is obvious, and it
is always forgotten. So let'sremind ourselves, you should
always listen to the peopleyou're trying to change and be
(48:07):
humble. You may think you knowwhat they are trying to say. Or
you may think you know what theymean? But many times you miss
understand. And so askclarifying questions, first seek
to understand then to beunderstood, as Stephen Covey
wrote, and the third point, feelthe energy. We often think of
(48:28):
projects in terms of timelines,and Gantt charts and sprints and
gates. And that's all well andgood, but maybe we should also
think about energy, energytowards the change. At what
level? Are people energizedtowards the change? Is the
energy positive or negative?
Those questions are as relevantas Where are we on the Gantt
chart now? If you did like theinterview, and want to hear
(48:52):
more, please press the subscribebutton. Also, if you did like
the interview, I will appreciateif you will give the podcast a
five star feedback. It helps alot for our reach. Until next
time, take care
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
In What Monkeys Do, we explorewhat it takes to make a change
and make it stick. And today, wewill talk about one of the most
(00:28):
basic and fundamental thingsabout change: how we react.
Seven years ago, my wife and Idecided to make a change, we
decided to move home across thecountry, it was a big step. We
just made new friends in thetown we were living in. But my
wife was offered a new job. Andwe saw this as a way to get
(00:48):
closer to old friends and to newopportunities. The day came to
tell our kids, our oldest shewas eight at the time. And when
she heard us talk about theexciting news, she was less than
happy. In fact, she was as upsetas only an eight year old can
be, she had just started school.
She's just got some new friends.
(01:10):
And she did not want to move. Isat down next to her and
explained how she could get newfriends where we were going to
live. I told her about my wife'snew job and how exciting that
was, I told her that movingcloser to a big city would
actually give her exciting newadventures. And she had cried
for a while. But then she lookedup at me and said, Dad, why are
(01:31):
you telling me this? I know allof that. But don't you
understand? I just don't want tomove on. Now, I had finished my
psychology degree at that time.
But that was the first time whenI really got the difference
between knowing what ishappening, and liking what is
happening. And that is a crucialdifference. My guest today is a
change management expert, and hewill be able to tell me what I
(01:54):
did wrong. He is a best sellingauthor of books such as, Why
Don't You Do What I Want. Andthe classic Beyond the Wall of
Resistance. He's also the fatherto two concepts you may know.
One is The Cycle of Change. Andthe other one is Three Levels of
Resistance. He has worked withleaders from companies all over
the world, including Fortune 500companies, he's the founder of
(02:16):
Maurer and Associates, welcometo you, Rick Maurer,
Rick Maurer (02:22):
Thank you, Morten, it's good to be here.
Morten Andersen (02:23):
I want to start off with something very
fundamental when it comes tochange. And that is resistance.
That's important, whether wetalk about change at home or at
work, or if we talk about manypeople, or a change for one. So
let's try to start byunderstanding what is
resistance? How does it looklike? Why does it happen and so
on? Can you help us with that?
Rick Maurer (02:43):
Yes, by the way, your story is a great story. And
I'll come back to that in aminute. when I really started
thinking about resistance backin the early 90s, some of my
clients were facing a lot of bigchanges. And they would talk
about resistance all the time. Idid a literature search in the
business press. And I found thatthere was a verb attached to the
(03:03):
word resistance almost all thetime. And that verb was
overcome, we've got to overcomeresistance. And I understand why
you might want to say that. Butfrankly, that attitude creates
resistance. You know, I'm tryingto make you do something, it's
saying I want to overpower you.
And whether that's your intentor not. If you're thinking I
(03:25):
want to overcome, that's exactlyhow that other person is going
to see it. Like who died andmade them God. Yeah, that kind
of thing. So I got reallyinterested in that I started
studying Gestalt psychology atthe Gestalt Institute of
Cleveland. And the Gestaltapproach to resistance was
unusual, certainly inorganizations, and that was that
(03:46):
people resist for good reasons.
Hmm. It's so if we want toinfluence them, whether we're a
therapist or a coach or manager,the best thing we can do is to
pay attention to the person andto the resistance. So in the
case with your eight year olddaughter, just the fact that you
made your pitch in a second,I'll say that's a level one
(04:08):
pitch, but for now, you madeyour pitch. And she said, No,
Dad, I get it. I know, you know,I don't like it. That kind of
thing where the person in yourcase the father is willing to
stop at that point and listen,Hmm, that's a big deal. Because
you know, we calibrate all thetime. So if we go a step too
far, if our eyes are open, we'repaying attention. We have an
opportunity to go, Oh, I'mseeing the way he's furrowing
(04:31):
his brow right now. And I cansee the steam coming out of her
ears, but whatever it might be.
If I can pay attention, I have abetter chance of getting people
with me.
Morten Andersen (04:41):
So you're saying that from a Gestalt
therapy point of view, peopleresist for a good reason? What
is that good reason,
Rick Maurer (04:50):
identified three reasons. The first of those is
not psychological at all. Andit's simply I don't get it. I
don't understand what you'resaying. So you talked about, you
know, your background infinance. Okay, I've seen finance
people get up in front ofpeople. And they, they're good
people, they really want toinfluence them well, but they
(05:11):
use all the jargon of thefinancial world and they lose
their audience. I've seenmarketing people do that. I've
seen human resources, people. Imean, we all do that. So the
first one is the simplest one,you know, I don't get it.
Unfortunately, even though it'sthe simplest, we sometimes
believe that is the key reasonthey're not going along. So I
get in my head. Oh, if I explainit again, if I use more slides,
(05:34):
oh, if I use clipart with myslides, they're gonna go, oh,
wow, that's brilliant. It'd belike you showed your daughter
pictures of moving to the newplace. He noticed that I got
that I got that. So that's levelone. That's the easiest one, the
second one, and it's where yourdaughter was, I don't like it.
And this is an emotionalreaction. So it isn't like, I
(05:55):
don't like brussel sprouts. Imean, it's like something about
this scares me that my survivalis at stake. As adults, am I
gonna lose my job? Am I gonnalose face? I'm an old dog, can I
learn new tricks? I mean, just,it's deeply personal. And that's
where a lot of resistance lies.
And there's a couple problemswith that level. One is it's
often unconscious, and it'suncontrollable. It causes what
(06:20):
the researcher Joseph LeDouxcalled an amygdala, amygdala
reaction. I think DanielGoleman, call it an amygdala
hijack, or that part of thebrain, the basic part of the
brain, fam, this survival is atstake. And why that's so
important is if we're in ameeting, and the person up there
is talking through slide number42, and 43. People aren't with
(06:42):
them, because they're worriedabout their survival. And it's
not that they don't want to bethere. If they can't be there.
And there's a lion just aroundthe corner, I can hear it roar,
I got to get out of town fast.
So a big a big problem I find inorganizations is this level two.
And one thing to add to that isif I'm in a meeting, and let's
(07:03):
say it's 75 people, and you sayall right, so any, any comments,
any concerns, I am not going toraise my hand and go, Martin,
I'm having a level two reaction.
You know, it's, it's, that's notgoing to happen. What I'll do
is, I'll say Morten, could yougo back to the last slide of a
question about the budgetprojections. That's all nice,
polite level one stuff. fromyour vantage point, you're
(07:26):
thinking this is great. I askedfor questions. People ask me
questions, I answered it. So youwalk out of the meeting, and
your friend best friend says,how's it going? So what really
well, and the problem is twodifferent languages were being
spoken. Hmm. So I don't get it,I like it. The third one is I
don't like you. This is a bit ofan overstatement. But basically
what it means is, I don't trustyou or have confidence in you
(07:47):
for this particular project.
Hmm. So it may be because of ourhistory together, like I'm a, I
don't know if you know, theexpression flavor of the month,
but I just read a new book. Andnow I'm excited and or I'm just
somebody, I get started withsomething. And then six months
later, I move on to somethingelse and leave you holding the
(08:07):
bag. Hmm. So it could bepersonal history. But it may
have nothing to do with ouractual relationship. In fact,
the story that I use when I'm inDenmark a lot, is imagine that I
was hired by whoever hired me towork on a project, not give a
speech, but work on a project.
And as soon as that person says,Well, we've hired Rick Maurer to
help us. He's a consultant fromthe United States. And he's
(08:29):
written books. Now, what I wantis, you know, this little
cartoon bubbles above people'sheads. You know, I know that,
you know, I want them to bethinking, Wow, this is great,
another consultant from theUnited States. And not only that
he's books. That's not what'sgoing on. It's like another
consultant from the UnitedStates. Who thinks he knows at
all because he's written books.
(08:53):
And so I've got to understandwhen I walk in that room, I'm an
American consultant. And Icannot come in and say, Hey, by
the way, I'm different thanthose other consultants. I mean,
that just adds to the problem,when I've got to do is try to
demonstrate that I'm differentthan their preconceptions. And
if I don't do that, if I just gointo what I think are my
(09:13):
brilliant models, I just they'regoing there. See there? There he
goes again.
Morten Andersen (09:19):
Yes. Yes, that makes sense. Yes, absolutely. So
So basically, you're saying thatpeople resist for good reasons.
And the three reasons theyresist is one either they don't
get it. The second one is Idon't like it. Or the third one
is, I don't like you. You couldalso say that the number one is
a cognitive thing. You can saynumber two is an emotional
(09:40):
thing. And you can say numberthree is a relational thing in a
sense. I know you call themlevels, is that because one is
more difficult than the other oryou have to get to one before
you can get to the next Oh, howdoes that level work?
Rick Maurer (09:55):
First of all, I'm glad you asked that. I wish I
had never called them levels.
What I meant by that is levelone people understanding this is
the easiest one to work withdealing with level two trying to
say, Okay, here's, here's what'sin it for you to, it's a little
bit harder, or maybe a lotharder. And level three, if you
don't have trust it's reallyhard. The truth of the matter is
all three of those are alive allthe time either working for us
(10:20):
or against us. What I need tounderstand when I'm trying to
influence you is to what extentdo you get it or not? Hmm, to
what extent are you leaning ingoing? Wow, tell me more about
that. That's interesting, youknow or not? And to what extent
do you trust me? Or is trustseem to be building in our
conversation? Or is it goingaway? So I actually had an
(10:43):
artist, when I was doing the WhyDon't You Want What I Want
books, I create threeintertwining circles. And I
said, and he did a really niceartist's rendering. I said, No,
no, what's sloppy circles, Iwant to show that this tension
in the interaction so that achange at one level could have a
positive or a negative effectthat the others and it's always
alive, I, I looked at a changeat somebody's project plan one
(11:07):
time, and they had a step fourdeal with resistance to change.
That's good hearted. Butresistance and support are alive
all the time. From the momentyou come up with the idea until
the time that it's finallyimplemented successfully.
Morten Andersen (11:23):
So I guess we have all tried to announce
something, it could be home,we're moving or it could be at
work. I'm a leader, and we wantto do a mega change. And
nobody's really reacting. So youmight go away from that meeting
at that conversation at thedinner table and thinking
Everything is fine here. And youkeep saying, Well, sometimes
(11:44):
people may not even know thatthey're resisting, or it may not
be very visible. I mean, howdoes resistance look like?
Rick Maurer (11:51):
I think one of the things that we can do is try to
step in their shoes. So beforethat meeting, or whether it's
with one other person or 100people and say, what's it going
to look like from their point ofview, I used to use theatre
improv in my work. And I createdthis thing, which I called 180
degree switch. And so I wouldhave people come up with
(12:13):
something in the case that Ilove is my brain friend, Brian
was in my test run of the same.
And he loves baseball in hishometown team had just sold this
top pitcher known as the bigunit. And he said, Oh, I can do
that. And I said, Okay, soBrian, I'd like you to tell me
why that was a bad decision. Andat some point, I'm going to say
(12:34):
switch. And I'd like you toswitch your point of view. 180
degrees, huh? Yeah.
So, so he's going on? Well, he'sone of the great pitchers of all
time, and I license and so weeven let him finish a sentence.
And it's a switch. And it waslike, it was like steam was
coming out of his ears like thebrakes he was putting him on.
(12:56):
And it was, it was like an oldcartoon kind of thing. And he
had the hardest time switching.
So as an experiment as a way tokind of, you know, prime that
pump, that can be a good thingto do. But it's important that
you don't have to do it out loudto say, I want to influence
these people, okay, for a momentby myself in the privacy of my
own office, what are they goingto be thinking? What are they
(13:19):
going to be feeling? And I couldgo through the three levels? And
if I can't answer thosequestions, like I don't know, to
the extent to which theyunderstand it, I don't know how
they might be feeling. And Idon't know what they think or
feel about me. I am flyingwithout radar.
Morten Andersen (13:36):
Yes,
Rick Maurer (13:37):
if you have a high degree of trust, you can ask
people, but just knowing I don'tknow, is a real wake up call. So
I can give you a couple simpleways. One of the big consulting
firms used to what they saidparachute me in. So they were
working on a project with aclient. And I would come in and
I would teach my stuff, I wouldleave and now they're
(13:58):
consultants and the client knewmy model. So it was an old line
business have been around for acentury with old confining,
bureaucratic thing. So I'mtalking to a planning team, it
made up of people from aroundthe organizations about 15 men
and women. I've just teaching.
That's all I'm doing. I'm notthere to work on the project.
And this one guy says, Rick,next week, the bomb is gonna
(14:19):
drop. And I sit and people go,Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, What do
you mean? Oh, it's gonna beterrible. There's gonna be blood
everywhere. I mean, it'shorrible image. And I said,
well, what's going on next week?
And they said, we're holding ameeting. And I go, yeah, this is
an all day meeting. And I go,yeah, so with the key
(14:39):
stakeholders, all they're gonnahate it, blah, blah, blah. And
then they looked at me like,they had puppy dog eyes, and
they said, What should we do?
Now, at that point, I had noidea. I mean, I didn't know
these stakeholders, but they'relooking at me. And I would love
to have said, Well, you know,I've written a book and if you
just turn to page 42, you knowyou that would be arrogant and
wrong. So what I did in this isI'm, you know, making this up as
(15:03):
I'm going along, and I said,Look, everybody here knows
somebody is coming to thatmeeting, right? I said, Yeah, I
said, Don't tell me their names,what's going to be on their
minds. And people startedshouting, not shouting, but just
down on top of each other, therewas a flip chart there. And I
started writing the stuff down,had no idea what I was going to
do with it. And I don't like washalfway through the flip chart.
(15:24):
And I realized I know what todo. So I get done. Everything on
the list was negative. By theway, that's not always the case.
I mean, sometimes it'll be amixture, okay. But in this case,
everything was negative. And Isaid, All right, we just went
over the three levels. Let'simagine that level one I don't
get it is green, which of theseare, you know, level one, so I
underline those, and a differentcolor marker for level two, the
(15:46):
emotional and a different colormarker, again, for relationship.
So now the whole thing is colorcoded. We've done it in a matter
of minutes. So it's not a bigfancy assessment, but it's their
data, and they're interpretingtheir own data immediately. So
now I've got everything's colorcoded. And the guy who had said
the bomb is going to drop, hesaid, Oh, that's why the bombs
(16:09):
gonna drop. And people lookthem. So wait, they said, look
at that. We designed that entiremeeting to deal with level one
issues, timelines, deliverables,where we're going to start, you
know, test plans, bah, bah, bah,bah, bah. He said, very, very
few things on that list. Maybe10% of the things are level one,
everything else is fear. Or theydon't trust us. Yes. And the
(16:33):
other people notice that. Wow,that's right. And here's what
they did, brilliantly. They saidto my colleague from the large
firm, and me, could we take thenext hour and redesign that
meeting? Okay, they did not,say, Rick or Ross, who's the
other consultant? Do you havesome brilliant thing that we
could do next Monday, you know,if they had to ask, we can, you
(16:55):
know, give them some things wethink would work. They didn't
need it. And the fact that theyhad the data and know how to
make sense of it, and they wereable to redo the meeting. And by
the way, that meeting wentreally well. I have used that
notion of the list of always,since that was 20 years ago,
hmm. If if I'm going to work ona project, I got to know what's
on the list, what's working foryou and against you. And my
(17:18):
clients have got to know what'son the list. And so sometimes
you can do it as simply as whatI described, sometimes you might
do focus groups, there's onething I talk about one of my
books called coffee with Joe.
And these people will tell itlike it is, and they're valuable
to have around and I say havecoffee with them don't have
lunch, you don't spend that muchtime in there. It could be
(17:40):
informal ways of doing it. Focusgroups can work, you could do
surveys, except people aresurveyed to death. And sometimes
we want to ask more questionsthan we need to. And so when I
say to a client look atit before this thing, I'd like
us to get some information aboutthe list. I'd like to do a
survey. And I remember the firsttime I didn't want my clients at
all require survey to death. AndI said, Look, how about this
(18:03):
three questions, and it willtake people less than five
minutes. And they said, okay,they went with level one, two,
and three. So I never said, oh,here's my theory. Here's level
one. The first question is, whatextent you understand what this
meeting is going to be about?
level two, what's your reaction?
You might have to make thischange? I'm not trying to say,
Are you going to support it,you're going to resist it? And
(18:24):
the third is, to what extent doyour leaders have what it takes
to lead a project like that?
Yes, we got brilliantinformation. And by the way,
they said, Wow, our head leaderis maybe the best leader I've
ever worked for. And this was inan old style military
organization that did notpromote very many women to
(18:45):
senior positions. So for her toone be in that position and be
widely respected. There's a lotand she's, she earned that she's
great. And so most everythingwas positive. They said, Yeah,
we're scared about that. We haveto make the change. But boy, am
I glad we're starting on it now.
Got it. And the only thing levelthree that bothered them is
corporate headquarters. Okay.
(19:06):
They said corporate headquarterscan make promises and then not
deliver. And so when I wastalking to the leader and her
team, she said, Yeah, they'reright. But if we get them to
come and kick off the meeting,she said, if they're, if they do
it in an email, it doesn't work.
But if they come and say, Wow,we support so and so in the
team, they're behind us. So westarted meeting and they came in
and said, we're really proud andwe're blah, blah, blah, blah,
(19:29):
you know, what corporate peopledo? And the project went really
well. But it was really quick.
Morten Andersen (19:35):
Fantastic. So just to see if I get it right.
So basically, you're saying,well, resistance is real people
resist for good reasons. Thereare three good reasons why
people resist one is that theydon't understand it. They don't
cognitively don't get it to, Idon't like it. So there is an
emotional issue or three. Idon't like you there is a
(19:57):
relational issue and the Firstthing to do is to try to find
out what is the issue here. Sotry to put yourself in their
position by doing 180 feedbackexercise or to do the list or to
do any such thing where you tryto imagine what might be on
their mind. And once you have afeeling for what that might be,
then you can target yourinitiatives to to target what is
(20:21):
the problem. So if the problemis emotionally, we'll talk about
that. If it's, you know,cognitive, you provide some more
information, etc. Is that right?
Rick Maurer (20:29):
That's exactly right. Yeah,
Morten Andersen (20:31):
perfect.
I think over the years, I'veseen that there are people
who've written articles andbooks about resistance. And what
they're essentially saying isthat people don't resist it's to
negative view of resistance isbecause we have bad leaders,
(20:55):
people don't resist. And if wefocus too much on resistance,
we're focusing too much onwhat's not working instead of
some of the positiveappreciative things that we can
look at. What is your responseto those articles? So those
people,
Rick Maurer (21:08):
I don't agree with them? Oh, if you remember, the
book was a huge bestsellercalled Who Moved My Cheese? Yes.
And I was in an insurancecompany. And the next morning, I
was going to be giving a keynotefor them. And one of the guys
over drink said, Oh, so how isyour work similar to Who Moved
My Cheese? And I said, I'mactually not, it's not similar
at all. I am concerned about thepeople who are out there moving
(21:31):
cheese and not telling otherpeople about it. Hmm, I'm not
looking at the people resistingbecause we tend to call them
resistor, and how do we get themto go with the program? I said,
I don't believe that at all. Ithink resistance is a perfectly
fine word to use. And the reasonand I got feedback from people
while I was writing the book,because I even had, you know,
(21:51):
Beyond the Wall of Resistance onthe title, and people said, Oh,
no, people aren't gonna like it.
And I said, Look, my clients usethat word all the time. Hmm. I
don't care what psychologistssay. I don't care what od
consultants say, you know, eventhough that's my profession, if
I use the word resistance, myclients get it, hmm. Now, but if
you use the Gestalt term, thenit doesn't have that negative
(22:13):
valence or connotation. It's away we react, it's a polarity,
we can react this way we canreact that way. And so I don't
see it as a negative how wereact to it, though, quite often
is negative, like, it's reallyeasy to blame those other people
and to me, then I agree withthose people who are concerned
about the term resistance.
Morten Andersen (22:35):
Yes, I've heard that you say that we actually
know what makes change work. Theproblem is that people don't use
them. So I guess from that, Ijust have two questions. One is,
what do we know makes changework? But also, why is it that
people are not using what wealready know? So what would you
say to that?
Rick Maurer (22:53):
There are a number of things that can make change
work or not work, like we don'thave the budget going in, or
circumstances change all ofthat. What I'm looking at is if
we need support, if we needpeople to get energy behind
something and get forwardmomentum, we know what to do.
But often we don't use it. Andthat gets in the way. Hmm, so
(23:14):
I'm making a distinction. So ifyou're concerned about people
aren't going to get on board,then I would say we miss what's
right in front of us. I actuallybeen thinking about this a lot.
The last couple of years, I'mwriting a really short book
right now on this. In my otherroom, I've got a huge bookshelf
full of stuff on change, projectmanagement influence at work.
(23:35):
And as I started thinking, thisstuff has been around for 25
years. Hmm, why aren't we doingit better? I mean, why am I
still getting hired to talkabout this stuff? There's
something that all of thosebooks, including my own, by the
way, have in common, and not oneof them, runs by itself. And
it's like, all of those shouldhave a little warning sticker on
(23:59):
back that says, warningBatteries not included. By the
way, the first time I everpresented my concept thinking of
that way was a year and a halfhalf ago in Copenhagen. So I
really started thinking, Well,why aren't we using what we
know? Hmm. Now there, I thinkthere are some people who just
don't care. It's my way or thehighway. There's a guy who just
died, named al Dunlap, who hadwho ran a couple of big
(24:21):
companies. And his nickname waschainsaw Al, because he would go
in and just do nasty things inor he would never, ever sit
through a speech of mine. Hewould never read my book. I
mean, he would be going that'sway too soft. We got so there
are people there. And frankly,I'm not an evangelist, so I'm
not working with them. Okay. Forothers, though. I think there's
(24:44):
a big, big problem is we treatand I'm gonna use the word
support right now, just toreally mean energy and forward
momentum. So I'm not I don'tmean to do some touchy feely
kind of thing, you know, toreason is even though leaders
say yeah, yeah, this isImportant, it's often an addon.
It's often if we have time, Iremember a friend of mine helped
(25:06):
set up the change managementpractice in a large consulting
firm. He was really good. And Iknow the other people who helped
set it up really good. And Isaid, you know, a couple years
later, I said, how's it going?
And he said, This is awful. Hesaid, the people really doing
the change the project managers,and people from our firm will
call us in when they need abreak. They'll say, Hey, could
you come in and do one of thoseteam building things? Hey, could
(25:28):
you do one of those personalitythings? It's like having pizza
on Friday. I mean, it's, there'snothing wrong with doing any of
that, except I really believethat the notion of support, the
human stuff needs to be blendedin. And I came up with this
image that I hope you like. So Iget in line at my favorite
coffee shop. And invariably,there's somebody there who
(25:51):
orders a latte. I've never onceheard that person say, Hey, I'll
give me a latte, but hold themilk. Because you know, you can
have a latte without espressoand steamed milk. They are the
two essential ingredients. And Ithink we need to think like good
baristas and say, how do weblend the human part into what
we're doing? I was working lastyear with an organization and
(26:15):
the planning team has said thesedreary planning meetings, you
know, they were falling subguidelines, and they would get
so Okay, we've got to fill outthis template, we got to fill
out this. And these are thepeople planning it and they
don't have energy. And I'msaying stuff like, Well, what
about the other people? Oh,yeah, we're going to have a town
hall meeting soon? Well, so thatthe whole human part was going
to happen at that other meeting.
(26:39):
You know, it wasn't happeningfor them, either. I mean, just
so what I've been working onlately, that's what the new book
is going to be about is how dowe blend support in so that's
not an extra activity. To goback to that group that was
actually doing re engineering 20years ago and said the bomb is
going to drop? What they did isthey said, Look, there's level
one stuff we've got to cover.
But let How can we do it in away that might dissipate fear?
(27:02):
Or actually add some excitement,enthusiasm? And how could we do
it in a way that might actuallybegin to build their confidence
and trust in us? So we're notdoing a bunch of new stuff.
We're not adding an extra hourand a half on and bring in
balloons. And you know, we'renot having a motivational
speaker, we're saying, how do wedo what we're already doing, but
(27:22):
do it in a way that's lively.
Morten Andersen (27:26):
In essence, you're saying, we know what is
working, and actually the peopledoing it, also know how to do
it. And I suppose maybe that's alittle bit different from at
home. So I'm just thinking,let's say I want to impose a
change on my teenage daughtersto look less at their iPads,
that would be a big change. Soif I wanted to cut a couple of
(27:48):
hours of that, I know frompsychology that we have a big
body of knowledge about howwould you do that? Well, but I
guess if I asked many parents,they would not know how to do
that. So they would obviouslyhave the support from
themselves, because they're theones imposing it. They really
mean it. But they may not knowit. So if I think in workplace,
(28:09):
does leader know how to buildsupport for a change? Is that
something that they know, do youthink?
Rick Maurer (28:16):
I think they do this? these last couple years,
I've been interviewing a lot ofleaders and finding out So when
did when did support build orenergy bill? When did it
dissipate? And I'll say, Well,what was missing? And they'll
tell me that and I'll go Whatshould should the leader sit
down? And they'll tell me that.
So for instance, I've dividedkind of the energy of change
(28:37):
into four categories, and not toget into all four of them. The
second one is the planning one,often we think that is the first
one. But the first one is reallyhas to do with do people even
see a need for change. But so wedo all the planning. And then
from that we move intoimplementation, and I'm talking
to a leader, and she said, Youknow what happens? our energy is
(28:57):
high, we have a really generallya good leader and a good team on
planning. And then moving fromplanning to implementation, the
energy just drops off. And Isaid, you know, I'm thinking of
a track relay race, where youspend a lot of time practicing
running real fast and runningout of the gate fast. And no
time handing off the baton. Shesaid, That's exactly right. So
(29:20):
we didn't need to talk aboutwhat would you do in that case,
just recognizing that, oh, wejust got to pay attention to
that. What amazes me is quiteoften is if, if we know what the
potential problems are, if wesimply pay attention, like, Oh,
we have to keep people in theloop on that it can help us. And
if it's more sophisticated thanthat, then that's where the
(29:41):
books come in. That's whereconsulting firms come in.
Morten Andersen (29:46):
Yes,
Rick Maurer (29:46):
but but I've really been, I've been amazed and
delighted at how often leaderswill say, Alright, here's the
places where energy drops out.
I've identified I think 22 ofthose places right now. And then
I'll say, Well, why why did thathappen? But what could they have
done? And they don't even haveto think about?
Morten Andersen (30:04):
Yes, that's actually a really interesting
concept about thinking aboutenergy and maybe even measuring
energy instead of Gantt charts.
And where are we in a projectplan. So measuring energy, I'm
just reading right now our book,The Power of Full Engagement by
Jim Loehr. And he's talkingabout measuring energy rather
than managing time. And I thinkthat is a really interesting
(30:26):
concept about how you can howyou can do that on a project as
well. So one thing I suppose isthe same whether we're talking
about a work or a private changeis that trust is important. And
this is really level three inyour three level resistance. And
trust is one of those thingsthat if the people that you're
(30:48):
proposing a change to if theytrust you, then the whole thing
is just a lot easier. And atwork, I suppose that is a
leader, often, at least, athome, it can be a mom or dad or,
you know, in other times it canbe a friend or a brother. So
trust is just a very essential,very important ingredient. Now,
can you tell me a little bitabout you know how important
(31:11):
trust is and also how you buildtrust as a person. And I'm
actually using the word personrather than a leader here. So
it's more attached to not to arole, but to a person as opposed
to?
Rick Maurer (31:24):
Well, first of all, I agree with you about how
critically important it is. Andoften, we allow our ideas and
our plans to be the thing thatwe we lead with whether it's two
teenagers talking to each other,or a parent and our teenager or
you know what it is, we get socaught up in our own ideas, that
(31:47):
we just think the brilliance ofthat idea, or the need for that
idea is so strong, that we don'teven think about the trust
issue. Hmm. So I know when I'mtraveling outside the US that
that trust is going to be anissue. So I need to pay
attention to it. Mm hmm. Youknow, I haven't had a chance to
talk to everybody who's going tobe working with me, but I can
assume that they have somepreconceptions about American
(32:09):
consultants, because they workedwith them, that they might be
thinking, this guy's going to bearrogant, he's going to have all
the answers, the answers aregoing to be bad. I mean, all of
that. So one of the things thatI could do is, and this is a
place where I noticed that I'mdifferent than a lot of
consultants only because Ithought about it, consultants
will often come in, and theywant to show you how good they
(32:31):
are. And so they show you theirmodel, and, you know, a leader
does that anybody with an ideathat does that says, Oh, hey,
here's this great thing. And itactually works better to start
by using their data. Hmm, worksa whole lot better for me, if
I'm going to be working in anorganization to say, you know,
in preparation for today, youknow, I sent out that two
question survey. And I reallyappreciate your responses. And
(32:55):
you told me about two big thing,themes that are standing out.
It's I'm giving them back totheir old words, okay. And I'm
maybe using a PowerPoint slide.
I'm not doing a big slideshow,but I'm saying I got really
captivated by. So now I'mgetting captivated by their
stuff I'm trying to show I'mreally interested in their
stuff, and then maybe go intowhat else happened. A big thing
(33:18):
n building trust, I think is sizing moments of possibility. A
ter 9/11, a number of ourovernment agencies here in the
tate, there was a decision thathey'll all become one large
rganization called theepartment of Homeland Security.
was working with one of thoseittle organizations decision
asn't been made yet. But I'morking with this one
(33:40):
rganization. And they invitede to fly to San Francisco,
ecause all the senior leadersere having a meeting. Okay, so
live in Washington, DC area.
o I fly across the country. Andt was just a regular yearly
eeting the senior leaders, andhappen to turn on TV. And
hile I was getting ready, andNN, they had breaking news on
(34:02):
verything they do is breakingews. But they they had this
reaking news, and they said oh,nd they said the name of this
rganization has now beenisbanded and will become part
f the selector organization. Sowhy why it's interesting. So I
alled my client, and he said,eah, I said, I had to fly home
ast night because of this. Ande said, but I said, I don't
(34:24):
ven know if it's appropriatehat I go ahead. So I'm trying
o say what's the energy? Andnd I said, Look, I people are
oing to be so distracted byhis. I mean, it's going to be
evel two survival stuff, huh? Ion't want to waste their time.
nd he said, I trust you, right.
f you decide that you shouldn'to it, they'll do it. But I'd
ike you to go ahead, I thinko. I get down to the conference
oom. And this is before cellhones, smartphones, so people
(34:46):
ept going out into the hall toee the TV monitors to see what
as going on. So the first tworesenters were in house people
nd they I don't think theyhanged a word of their
resence. And that they had hadone. So it was just stuff that
as just, it was well thoughtut. But it had nothing to do
ith where the audience was. Sond I'm just watching this, get
(35:08):
break, they now introduced me.
nd I get up and I said, oncegain, I'm, I'm thinking this
hrough in real time. Okay, Iid not have in my kit bag. Oh,
his is this is technique number2. And I said, folks, what I'd
ike to do is just talk forike, two, three minutes, tell
(35:28):
ou what I plan to cover andind out. Does that make any
ense? So, and I said, Is thatkay? So I checked with that,
ou know, and they said, Yeah,o I said, Okay, so here are the
ind of things I'll be coveringah, bah, bah, bah. And I said,
ell, you just turn to theerson next to you, and say,
his is how we want to use ourime, you know, and I was
repared for any answer theyame up with, well, the place
(35:51):
s, first of all, people arectually getting to talk to each
ther. It's the first time inhe morning, we got to talk to
ach other, except on breaks.
nd it was just, I mean, it waseally vibrant. And, and I had
o idea what they're gonna say,ou know, call it back together.
nd I said, so what do you say?
hey said, Oh, we need this nowore than ever, because, and I
aid, Okay, great. We talkedbout how I might adapt it, and
(36:12):
hen I went ahead, but they wereith me. So it's a group that
idn't know me. I'm an outsidero their organization. But I
hink, by the way, I can tellou stories about when I blew
t. So this is that
Morten Andersen (36:24):
wow. No, no, no. And I guess it's a great
story about when people do notknow you, how do you build
trust, and the two examples thatyou gave, one was to sort of use
their example. So use theirwords. So it wasn't your agenda.
But it was really what was ontheir mind, I thought that was a
great example. And anotherexample was to make sure that
(36:47):
you always speak into the rightcontext. So and as you could see
that the context has changed.
Then you also just took atimeout and said, I can see the
context has changed. What do youthink we should do now? And
those are two, I think,incredibly powerful ways to
build trust with people youdon't know. And I suppose, when
there are people that you, let'ssay that they know you very
(37:08):
well, and you do not have trust,I'm just thinking of an example.
Right now. It's literally justmade up. But let's say that, for
instance, that my daughter sheplays in the school replay, and
she every six months, she putson a show with a school friends.
And every time I say I'll showup, and I'll never do. So I'm a
father who does not show up forthe school plays, and she has
(37:30):
very little trust in me. Now,you might say, Well, how do I
build trust with her? Well, thefirst thing is to promise her
that I'll come and then show up,of course. But does that mean
that she will trust me? And nowI'll be the father who always
shows up? No, of course not. Iwas the father that did that
once, right. So the way to buildtrust is to have trustworthy
behavior and do it again, andagain, and again and again,
(37:53):
until it is installed withinpeople. So I think those
examples that you gave, and thisone sort of tells a little bit
about, also, the trust is a hardthing to build. But it is
essential if you want to have agood dialogue with people.
(38:18):
In what monkeys do, it's a it'sa podcast about change. And I
would therefore like to justtalk a little bit about how we
can tap into your knowledge andexpertise to understand how to
use this to make a change. Andyou've already given a lot of
examples. I think that'sphenomenal. And I'll just take
one sort of very concreteexample that I know many
workplaces are facing right now.
So imagine that you areresponsible for a group in your
(38:41):
company. And it is to make achange on how you can work and
how you can change work as aresult of COVID-19. So the
group, let's say it's 40 people,they in the future will now be
working three days in the officeand two days at home, they'll
have shared desks at the office,instead of having a fixed desk
(39:02):
will now have shared desks, willusing soon for all of our
meetings. And there are newprocedures for hand washing,
etc, etc. So a lot of smallchanges, which in total, will
basically change the way peoplework. Know, the CEO has
announced the change and whyit's necessary. But as soon as
the people are returned back tothe desks, five people will
(39:23):
start to complain that theycannot work from home because
they have no desk space at home.
Five will complain that theywant this fixed desk they don't
like the the variable desksarrangement, and many are
concerned if it's a child evensafe to be at work. If I'm
responsible for this group ofpeople, what what should I do
(39:44):
What is important in thatsituation? What in your
experience works? Well, in thatcase?
Rick Maurer (39:51):
First of all, there's not a neat, tidy answer
that I have. But I think thefirst thing that that leader of
a group of 40 needs to do isdemonstrate that he or she is
passionately listening for theconcerns. And so if let's say,
somebody says I don't, I don'tlike sharing a desk, why don't
we use this desk here, as theleader of that group? I think
(40:14):
what's critical is that youunderstand what they're saying,
and why they're saying it. Butoften, we think we got to make a
promise right now, or we've gotto tell them why they're wrong
right now. And I would say, whenpeople feel like they've been
listened to, and I'm not talkingabout a manipulative thing here,
but people really feel taken intaking them via the wrong phrase
(40:36):
that people go, Wow, he gets it,she gets it, or better yet, she
gets me is a big thing, it opensup the door to conversation.
Hmm. So there might bepossibility of conversation,
say, Look, my hands are kind oftied right now, as a leader,
but, you know, here's where wehave a little bit of play, would
you work with me, let me giveyou an example that that might
(40:59):
fit. I was working in a healthcare organization, and there's a
thing in some of our, that'slegal in some of our states and
not in others. And that's thatunskilled workers can take on
simple nursing tasks for drawingblood changing a simple wound
dressing, that sort of thing.
And this hospital had made anexecutive decision, we're gonna
(41:19):
do that. We're gonna, we'regonna hire these people. And I
was talking to the head ofnursing, who's just one of my
all time favorite clients. Andshe said, You know, my nurses
are really not going to likethis a lot. She said, but it's
an executive decision. I'm partof the executive team I'm with
and she said, I don't want toget up in front of 350, nurses
and talk, because she said,basically, I'll be talking, and
(41:42):
they'll be listening. And shesaid, Could you help me design
something where we're doing, youknow, work can be more of a
conversation. And so we did. Itwas like 90 minute meetings,
maximum 30 people. And the basicthing is, she would get up, and
her assistant would get up, andthey'd say, look, here's the
decision that's been made.
(42:03):
Here's what it's going to start,here's where it's gonna start.
It was real clear, that's notnegotiable. Okay. But then she
said, you know, but I reallylike to hear, you know, your
reactions to this, like, isthere a way that we can do this
and make it work for all of us?
Yes. And in the first meeting,we had 11 of these meetings over
a three day period. And I toldher, I said, this is a real
(42:24):
mistake. I mean, you know, bythe 10th meeting, you are going
to be so burned out that you'regoing to go by here, that stupid
question again. And she said, Iknow that's a risk, but we got
to take it. She was sobrilliant. I mean, by the end of
11th, she was still fresh. Sothe first meeting, we get done,
we're now be breathing. And shesaid, How do you think it went?
And I said, Well, they asked alot of level one questions. You
(42:46):
gave a lot of level one answers,like, when will that be
starting? Well, that'd be onJuly 15. How you know, what
department? And I said, That'snot why we're here. I don't
think why she said, I thinkthey're afraid. So what are they
afraid of their jobs? I said,Okay, by all means, answer their
level one questions, but thenspeculate. So in the next
meeting, everybody knew she wasa trained nurse herself. So
(43:08):
people started saying, well,when will that July 15 be happy
thing happened to all that'd beon July 15. You know, that sort
of. And I remember she took astep forward, and said, you
know, if I was in your shoesright now, I'd be scared. And
people saw bodies move. And shesaid, You know, there's
(43:30):
absolutely no guarantee that Ican give that. And it was and
we're in a competitivemarketplace. There are a lot of
hospitals around. But I'mwondering, is there a way that
we could do this, where weactually are strengthening our
employment possibilities, so Ican't make a promise when any of
you be willing to work with me?
(43:50):
So here's where it realized. Wecould relate directly to that.
And once again, she's not makingprofits. She's saying, Would you
work with me? And she then overthe course, means her two other
things like that. One was fromlicensed nurses, they said, if
these people mess up,it's my license.
It's in jeopardy. And I remembershe said, You know, I never
thought of that. You'reabsolutely right. Would you be
(44:12):
willing to work with me and seehow can we give them the
training and support they need?
So she was always using whatcould have been in your face
resistance and saying, is therea way? She's not making promise?
But is there a way that we couldwork together? And I could see
that being a thing you could doface to face or virtually? Yes,
I would rather do it in smallergroups rather than off 45 at
(44:34):
once, but
Morten Andersen (44:37):
and you you point to a fantastically
important thing, which is tolisten, I almost feel compelled
to suggest to you that youshould add a level zero to your
three levels of resistance,which is I'm not being heard,
because that's almost easierthan giving the right answers
that is just sitting down. Havea cup of coffee and say I'm
(44:59):
listening A lot of resistancewill actually, you don't even
have to explain something. Youdon't even have to promise
anything. But some resistance.
Not all, of course, but someresistance will actually go away
if people just being hurt. Sothat's a great, great thing to
say, on what monkeys do wealways end up with do's and
don'ts. And I sort of asked if,if a listener is faced with
(45:21):
imposing a change on somebody,what three advice would you
give, and you've actually justgiven the first two, which is
the first one is to listen, andI really want to stick with
that, because that's aphenomenal advice. And the other
one was to engage, see if youcan work with that person, and
find solutions within theboundaries of what is
negotiable? What would the thirdone be if you should come with
(45:44):
three advice?
Rick Maurer (45:47):
Well, let's just say one more thing about the
second one, is it's reallyimportant if you're going to
engage with people about so howcould we do this better than
that the boundaries are realclear, okay, fact that we're
going to be moving headquartersto Brussels, that's a done deal.
It's got to be within ourcontrol to do something, or
else, we could spend a lot oftime talking about this system
(46:10):
and that, and people just, itjust drains energy. So a very
big thing is the ability to seethe world through the eyes of
the people who you're trying toinfluence that model, the level
one, level two, and level three,helps me a lot. And it helps my
clients. And if they want to adda level zero, fine. I don't
(46:33):
care. But but it's that we havesome way of going, Oh, yeah, if
I was in their shoes, I thinkthat allows us to bring humanity
into the mix.
Morten Andersen (46:43):
Fantastic.
Thank you for all of yourinsights, and especially all of
the examples I felt that wasthey were really, really good.
So thanks a lot for your timeand for taking the time to do
this interview, Rick.
Rick Maurer (46:54):
Oh, it's a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.
Thanks. Thank you.
Morten Andersen (47:01):
What a great conversation with Rick, I
learned a lot from the interviewand took in particular three
things away with me. One, peopleresist for a good reason. If
you're trying to change someoneelse, you should expect the
reaction. often they're happyand will embrace the change. But
people may also resist becausethey're bad, or that there's
(47:24):
something wrong with them. Thinkof it as a natural reaction for
them in that particular case. Soinstead, try to understand that
their reaction makes sense fromtheir point of view, there is a
good reason. And in fact, thereare three good reasons for why
people might resist one, theydon't get it. So it's a lack of
(47:44):
information. Two, they don'tlike it, it's an emotional
reaction. And three, they don'tlike you, relational reaction.
Second point, always start bylistening. It is obvious, and it
is always forgotten. So let'sremind ourselves, you should
always listen to the peopleyou're trying to change and be
(48:07):
humble. You may think you knowwhat they are trying to say. Or
you may think you know what theymean? But many times you miss
understand. And so askclarifying questions, first seek
to understand then to beunderstood, as Stephen Covey
wrote, and the third point, feelthe energy. We often think of
(48:28):
projects in terms of timelines,and Gantt charts and sprints and
gates. And that's all well andgood, but maybe we should also
think about energy, energytowards the change. At what
level? Are people energizedtowards the change? Is the
energy positive or negative?
Those questions are as relevantas Where are we on the Gantt
chart now? If you did like theinterview, and want to hear
(48:52):
more, please press the subscribebutton. Also, if you did like
the interview, I will appreciateif you will give the podcast a
five star feedback. It helps alot for our reach. Until next
time, take care
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