November 4, 2020 • 40 mins
Conflicts are good. They are opportunities for change. And they can be resolved. Whether you have a fight with your neighbor, a disagreement with your partner or just a frustrating colleague, you can learn a lot from your conflicts. Especially, if you are willing to look inwards.
I speak with Louisa Weinstein, an expert in conflict resolution and the author of The Seven Principles of Conflict Resolution. She will provide us with a framework for conversations as well as tools and techniques that help us resolve conflicts more effectively.
LOUISA TALKS ABOUT
- Why conflicts are a good thing
- The process of conflict management and how you can approach each phase
- How you can identify your conflict patterns and what you can use them for
- How to create a conflict friendly culture
ARE YOU TOO BUSY? HERE ARE THE KEY TAKEAWAYS
I have collected the three most important takeaways from my conversation with Louisa. It was a really interesting talk; I learned a lot. I hope it inspires you to listen to the full episode.
#1 Identify your patterns of conflict
We all have patterns in our conflicts. Some conflicts come from the same underlying reason, or some towards the same type of person. If you identify those patterns, you can communicate more clearly about your needs or fears. That will help you resolve your conflicts more effectively.
#2 Our most intense conflicts happen when there is a violation of a fundamental need. We often discuss symptoms; you don't clean up after yourself, I want you to spend more time at home, I want to make the presentation - not you. But all that is just symptoms. Behind that is a violation of a fundamental need. Typically, these are what initiate your patterns of conflict.
#3 Structured conversations in small units such as teams and families can prevent conflicts from escalating. It is hard to change the culture around conflicts. Especially if you are in a large organisation. Smaller units are better. A family of five or a team of six. That's where it is possible to change the culture of the conversations we have. In the episode, Louisa guides us through those conversations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morten Andersen (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
In today's episode of WhatMonkeys Do, we will look at
conflicts and more specificallyabout how to manage and solve
(00:27):
conflicts. I've experienced manyconflicts in my life. And some
of them were one way conflicts,meaning that I had a conflict
with one person, but they didn'tknow about it, or they didn't
care about it. But many othertimes it's been a two way
conflict. So one example wasabout eight years ago, I was
working on a project with awoman. And we disagreed about
(00:49):
who was going to give the finalpresentation to the client about
our results. And thepresentation was a few months
away, and I knew and she knewthat we disagreed about this,
but we did not take theconversation, we delayed the
talk. So it intensified. And westarted to talk bad about each
(01:09):
other and sabotage each other'swork. And in the end, she went
behind my back, and she agreedwith the client that she was
going to give the presentation,I disliked her. And I told most
of the people around me, I toldmy wife at the time, anybody who
cared to listen to me. And thefunny thing is that now I can
see why she might have beenright or at least I can see her
(01:30):
point of view her perspective.
But even though this is eightyears ago, I still don't want to
admit to her face. I haven'tseen it for five years. But if I
met her, I still don't want toadmit to her face that she might
have been right. I mean, it didnot end well. Most of us have
been in a conflict at work, orat home, or both places,
conflicts are just part of life,and some seem to be involved in
(01:54):
more conflicts than others. Someseems to be managing these
conflicts better than others.
But what is the fact is that weall face them once in a while
that seems to be universal. Myguest today is an expert in
mediation and disputeresolution. And hopefully she
(02:14):
can help me understand what Ishould have done eight years
ago, with my conflict. She haswritten the excellent book The
Seven Principles of ConflictResolution, she's set up the
Conflict Resolution Center,which is based in London, she
has a background in law. Welcometo you, Louisa Weinstein,
Louisa Weinstein (02:31):
thank you so much.
Morten Andersen (02:33):
I want to start off with understanding what a
conflict is. So we use this termfor a lot of different things.
So disagreements or fights, wehave discussions, we have a
battles, or disputes or fightsor controversies. So it really
is something that we use for abig group of words and
terminology. So I guess there isa line when you go from seeing
(02:54):
things differently to being in aconflict. And I guess that line
is very subjective. So I justwant to start off with what is
the conflict?
Louisa Weinstein (03:02):
Well, I'd say that conflict is attention or
breach of the rules, whetherthat is actual or perceived. But
I think what's interesting inthe question, is that all, you
know, an argument about or anirritation about who does the
who washes up the tea cup can bea conflict. It's how we see the
word conflict. We don't like theword conflict. So conflicts
(03:25):
cover pretty much everything.
But sometimes we don't want toput the word on it because it
feels like it inflames it. Soany situation where I disagree
with you is a conflict. Is it abad thing? No. But is conflict a
bad thing? Not necessarily.
Morten Andersen (03:41):
Okay, so. So conflicts, actually, every time
that we disagree aboutsomething, it's actually a
conflict. And some conflicts aregood, because it creates
disagreements, and we have adiscussion about it, and
hopefully, we'll end a betterplace. And some conflicts are
bad, because that destroyrelationships, I suppose.
Louisa Weinstein (04:00):
I don't think any conflicts are bad. I think
conflicts are opportunities forchange, always. It's how we deal
with them. And sometimes they'reso difficult to deal with that
they feel really bad. Andobviously, when conflicts turn
violent, angry, destructive, theoutcome of the conflict is bad.
But the conflict is notnecessarily bad. The conflict
(04:21):
just says, I think one way youthink another and it's an
opportunity for creative change.
Morten Andersen (04:27):
I can actually follow that. Because when you
put it like that sounds reallyinteresting. But if I have a
disagreement with somebody, I'mreadily happy to have a meeting
with that person and say, okay,we disagree about this, let's
have a conversation. If I say inmy head that I have a conflict
with that person, I'll probablytry to avoid it because conflict
sounds like something I shouldstay away from,
Louisa Weinstein (04:47):
which is why I need to frame it differently.
Often, actually, it's a goodidea to recognize that I have a
conflict because if I recognizethat I have a conflict, then I
can start managing and dealingwith it. If I don't recognize it
I'm trying to push away the factthat there's a conflict, it
starts to take over me. Andthat's when it starts getting
out of control.
Morten Andersen (05:06):
Hmm. And getting out of control, I guess
you can have different levels ofconflict, or they can have
different levels of intensity.
So I have some, let's call themdisagreements or conflict where
I'm just Okay, I'll deal withthat tomorrow. And then I have
somewhere I can hardly sleep,and it creates an uneasy feeling
in my stomach, and I just don'tfeel good about.
Louisa Weinstein (05:27):
Yes, absolutely. It's the emotional
and intellectual response.
Sometimes we have both anintellectual and an emotional
response. That's often when wecan't sleep. Hmm. Sometimes we
just have one, we have avisceral response that may have
been triggered by something thathappened years and years and
years ago, maybe eight yearsago,
Morten Andersen (05:44):
it's actually something if somebody asked me
about it, I can still feel theemotion about that conflict. And
I also have experiences when Isit at a dinner table, and they
have a conflict with theirneighbor. And I only need to ask
one question, and they willstart their sort of speech about
how bad that neighbor is, andhow ungrateful that neighbor is,
(06:06):
and so on. So there are someemotional charged conflicts that
really can go on for many yearsand speak to anyone about it.
Louisa Weinstein (06:14):
Yes, even when we're not with those people, we
can work away to resolve it,because there's so much that
sits around it. And there's,there's so much that we often
take into the next conflict, thenext situation, because of habit
of not having resolved thatoriginal situation.
Morten Andersen (06:32):
Yes. So in the beginning, I said that conflicts
are part of life. And I suppose,with your definition, that every
time we disagree about somethingled to be who should clean up
the teacup, then that is aconflict, then I can definitely
see how that is part of life.
But I am here I'm putting wordsinto your mouth. I probably also
believe that you would say that,you know, emotionally charged
(06:52):
conflicts are not part of life.
So that is conflicts that youhaven't resolved properly, or is
that is that how I shouldunderstand that kind of
conflicts?
Louisa Weinstein (07:04):
Hmm, I don't I don't know. I think that we
carry around a lot of conflictwith us a lot of the time, a lot
of you know, unresolvedtensions, hmm. And some of them
affect us. And we aren't awareof them, you know, and also,
we're all different. So some ofus are quite robust, we're quite
comfortable with conflict. Andactually, the more we become
(07:26):
comfortable with conflict, it'seasier to traverse through.
Morten Andersen (07:29):
Yes. And conflicts obviously can happen
all the time. So they can happenat home. So I haven't I haven't
cleaned up my room. And my wifemay tell me about it. So you
know, that's a kind of conflict.
Yeah. But obviously, WhatMonkeys Do is a podcast about
change. And many times when wehave a change in the workplace,
they are often imposed upon you.
(07:49):
So a manager saying now we haveto work using teams or office
365, or we have to move intothese new officers or something
like that. So something ishappening, you are imposed a
change, and that can create aconflict, I suppose you You must
see conflicts like that often inyour line of work.
Louisa Weinstein (08:08):
Yeah, I think a lot of I think a lot of things
happen, I think the first thingthat can happen is that
something happens with theindividual internally, they
start to maybe have fear oranxiety about the change, they
might reconsider their positionin the organization, they may
feel unsupported by theorganization. And actually, that
might be something that is a bitof a pattern for them, or any of
(08:29):
the things can be something thatthey continued feel, you know, I
always get taken advantage of Ialways get. So there are two
things that can happen there.
Sometimes the individualresolves it themselves and, and
how they respond to it is goingto is is going to really define
what happens next. But andsometimes it needs a
conversation with the employer,because sometimes the employer
(08:49):
or often, obviously, theemployer won't have seen some of
the consequences of what's goingto happen. Unless there's a
conversation about it that says,you know, this isn't working, or
I don't like this, the employerwon't know. And so the changes
often, you know thatorganizational changes or
process changes don't get tohappen. And what happens instead
(09:11):
is that there are issues betweenthe individuals, and the the
functional issue takes quite awhile to unravel, because it
seems that often, it seems likequite a little thing. But I
think that when that happens,it's very important to
understand that you're in aconflict situation, because then
you cannot identify people'sresponses. So okay, we're in a
(09:33):
conflict situation, someone'savoiding it. Someone's being
aggressive about it. Someonewants to talk all day about it.
Someone wants to find a quicksolution. Someone wants to just
say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, butresentful toward the colleagues.
So we must understand that, youknow, this is a complex
situation and start to observe,you know, how is everyone
responding to it? And is that agood response for this
(09:55):
situation?
Morten Andersen (09:58):
Yes. So A change is happening and may be
imposed, that creates someemotions. Fear could be one of
them. And fear is actually an anemotion you often see in people
when something happens, it maynot be the one that they
recognize themselves ordefinitely talk about, but fear
could be an emotion thathappens. And that can lead to a
conflict if not resolved. And afirst part of that is for the
(10:21):
manager to have a conversationto try to understand what's
going on with you. So you areaware whether you are in a
conflict situation?
Louisa Weinstein (10:30):
I think so.
But I would also suggest thatit's not that it's also the team
need to be equipped to be ableto deal with themselves and not
conflict. So I might be in asituation where there's a whole
load of change going on, I mightnot have worked out what I feel
about that what I think aboutthat, and I don't want to speak
to my manager yet, because I'mnot yet clear. What would be
(10:51):
better is if I could speak to acolleague that is able to peer
coach me through the situation,which would enable me to
actually think through, do Iwant to stay in this job? Do I
want to continue these things?
If I do, then what do I need todo? Are there compromises I need
to make? What negotiations Do Ihave to go through? Yes,
(11:12):
effectively, when you'respeaking to your manager, you're
negotiating the amount of youknow, the manager at the board,
at the end of the day is goingto want you to be happy, yes,
but also, for you to perform. Soyou, the individuals within the
team need to be equipped to takeresponsibility for their
responses, otherwise, itcontinues this kind of
patriarchal response to youknow, are you okay? Do you know,
(11:36):
how can I make it better foryou, maybe you need to make it
better for yourself. And I needto allow that to happen. But
that conversation needs to bemanaged carefully, I need to
give you the tools to have itand not necessarily with me,
manager.
Morten Andersen (12:00):
Good. So I want to talk about the conversation.
So the difficult conversationthat you will need to have at
some point. So you'veacknowledged that there is a
conflict. And that's reallyPrinciple number one in your
book, I guess the first point isyou need to recognize there is a
conflict here. And either it canbe you recognizing that I have a
conflict with this person, or itcould be a manager, recognizing
(12:23):
that there is a conflict in myteam between these two people,
or whatever it might be. Sothat's the first thing. The
second is you need to try tomanage your state also principle
two. And you sort of done that.
And now you're going to sit downwith the person that you have a
conflict with. And that'sactually a hard thing to do to
say, I know you and I we don'tsee eye to eye on this, we have
different perspectives. Are youwilling to have a conversation
(12:45):
with me about this? Can youmaybe go through how how people
should manage that process ofgoing to a person suggesting a
conversation and and how best toconduct that conversation?
Louisa Weinstein (13:00):
The starting point is looking at what are
your priorities? And what do youwant to get out of the
conversation to really considerwhat you want, and how you think
that might that might beachieved? Before you even have a
conversation with that otherperson to consider what they
where they might be. And I'dwrite it out because then you
can kind of see it a little bitmore clearly. And your
(13:22):
negotiation stance. So what areyou prepared to move on? And
what are you not prepared tomove on? So preparation is
absolutely everything. And inthat what you might find is that
you might not have to have aconversation with that person a
full blown conversation, youmight have a series of
conversations, particularly ifthey're difficult to talk to.
Hmm, so the most important thingI think, is to get the hook. So
(13:45):
what is the incentive for themto have a conversation? Because
if you if I've had tensions withyou, and then I say we need to
talk about this, the first thingyou're going to do is try not to
talk about it with me. Hmm. Sowe need to identify need to
identify common interest inneeds things that are going to
motivate you to have aconversation with me and to be
(14:06):
invested in that conversation.
Morten Andersen (14:08):
Sometimes that common interest can just be
we're not having a good workingrelationship here or you know,
there is tension between us. Idon't like it, you don't like
it. So just getting rid of thattension. So sometimes it can be
about the subject, but sometimesit can also just get rid of that
tension as opposed.
Louisa Weinstein (14:23):
Yes. Although if you said that to me, I think
I'd feel a little bitoverwhelmed. Okay, I might just
want you to say, how are you?
Huh? Have you got 15 minutes, sothen I know, it's 15 minutes. I
don't have to be with you forthat amount of time. I've got to
let out. And in thatconversation, actually what
we're doing, particularly if youwant to build the relationship,
(14:46):
and I am not sure that I evenwant to have the conversation.
You're building trust and inthat you're going to listen to
me because actually, I might besuch a difficult individual that
You need to analyze as well,whether this is going to work
for you whether you can actuallyconverse with me and how. So on
one hand, you're supporting meto have the conversation, and
(15:07):
you're finding out actuallywhat's going on. But you also
need to be prepared for what I'mgoing to come back with all the
criticisms I might put on you,you know, you need to be
prepared that that might happen.
And you need in that firstconversation, to be listening
really deeply, and just a realsounding board and able to hear,
(15:29):
and then take some time toconsider it. So when those
conversations are hard to havein the first place, make them
short, make them time bound.
Morten Andersen (15:36):
So short listening, I mean, I suppose
that's one of the hardest thingto do is to have sort of that
active listening mode on. So andI like that you say, be
prepared, because sometimes weoften just book a meeting often
because we're very busy. Butalso because you know that we
don't consider what's actuallyat stake here. What do I want to
(15:57):
get out of this, but also maybeget into that listening mode. So
we have 15 minutes here, I justwant to really understand that
person's perspective as opposed,
Louisa Weinstein (16:06):
yeah, because effectively when you're in a
conflict, you're going to haveto, at some point, have a
negotiation. If you're going toresolve it, you're gonna have to
negotiate that conflict. So youneed to know how to negotiate,
you need to prepare your top andbottom lines, you need to
understand their top and bottomlines, you need to understand
how to negotiate, what's thenegotiation strategy, do you
(16:27):
even know. And then you doreally need to hear the other
person because they are going tohave some nuggets that will help
you resolve this, that's thething, we can't resolve a
conflict with someone else onour own, we it has to engage the
other person. The other thingis, if you have regular focus
check ins with people, then it'seasier to have those difficult
(16:47):
conversations. And there arethere are ways to have those
conversations. and dare I say,especially remotely in order
that those conversations can beboth practical, efficient, and
enable you to build arelationship.
Morten Andersen (17:01):
Sometimes the conflict is with somebody at my
own level. And that makes itsomewhat easier to go and say, I
would like to have aconversation with you, we need
to resolve this or, you know,let's let's talk this out. If
it's my manager that I have aconflict with, that might be
more tricky, because there is apower imbalance simply, what do
you do in a situation like that?
Louisa Weinstein (17:22):
Well, I think it's really important for
managers to equip employees tohave those conversations and for
employees, or team members totake responsibility for their
capacity to have thoseconversations, again, you're
doing the same thing, you aresupporting the manager in their
conflict with you, you're doingexactly the same thing you are,
(17:45):
you're being the grown up. Soprobably know my book, I love
the book Games People Play byEric Berne, just because I am
subordinate to you, it doesn'tmean that I have to, you know,
act as a child, I can be anadult mode and support you be
objective. Listen to you, youknow, if I do that I become much
(18:07):
more empowered. It's also likethe customer service
relationship. Okay, you'rebuying from me, but I can still
support you, in your conflictwith me. So, you know, if I have
an issue with the manager, and Ijust turn up and listen to where
the manager is, but I need to beprepared for what they're going
to say. And I need to be clearabout where I'm negotiating from
(18:28):
as well.
Morten Andersen (18:29):
Yes, my own experiences that the more
intense and emotional intense aconflict is, the more it is
because that there is afundamental need in me that has
been violated. So if I take theif I think about the conflict
that I had eight years ago, nowon the surface, it looked like
(18:49):
that we were in conflict aboutwho should give a presentation,
but probably really was a playwas that I did not feel that she
recognized me for what I coulddo. So we might go in and have a
negotiation about, you know, whoshould say what in this
presentation. But that wasreally that would probably not
have solved it. Because what wasreally a play was that I did not
(19:12):
feel that she recognized thevalue that I was bringing to our
working relationship. So it wasa deeper value than the
presentation. And maybe we foundout that I could give the
presentation. But if I stilldidn't feel that she recognized
me, I would have found somethingelse that we would have been in
conflict about. So how do yousuggest that you have a
(19:36):
conversation where you try tofind out what fundamental need
has been violated here?
Louisa Weinstein (19:42):
Right. So you identified that you identified
that issue for you that youdidn't feel recognized. And I
think what I'd ask you is, Hasthat happened before? Where is
it happened? Where is thispattern repeating? And is this
something that you're kind ofsetting her up for almost
(20:02):
creating. Because if you feellike you need to be valued by
her, then I suppose my questionwould be, do you value yourself?
And where you may be nervousabout where you might not be
able to deliver to the samedegree? And then what do you
want to do about that? Becauseactually, maybe you're concerned
(20:24):
about not being able to deliverand maybe you can deliver, but
this fear that you can't, and itkeeps on holding you back. And I
mean, I don't need to teach mygrandmother to suck eggs, you
know, this can this can be quitedeep rooted. I mean, that, you
know, can we and the more werecognize, you know, what, I do
this with my husband, I do thiswith my mom, you know, I go into
situations, and I don't feelrecognized or acknowledged,
(20:46):
that's really hard, because thenwhat do I do with that, but it's
not the other person's issue.
And what I would also say isthat there'll be some things
that will be going on with heras well. Hmm. And she'll be, you
know, playing some some of thosegames in her head. And, and
what's difficult is that whenyou work out, you know, where
your responsibility is, and whatthe issues are for you.
(21:07):
Sometimes you might expect herto have done that, too. And she
won't necessarily have done, youknow, you need to work out, you
know, what your, what your partis where you're, you know, what
the challenges are for youpersonally. And then except that
she may not do that as well.
Morten Andersen (21:26):
That's really fascinating, because what you're
really turning it upside down,in a sense, because what you're
saying is that, obviously, myfocus is on her and what she's
doing wrong and how poor she is.
But what you're really saying isthat, well two steps back is
that you're really saying isthat we have a lot of conflicts
in our lives. And we have thatat work in our home. And that
probably patterns in thoseconflicts. And we can learn a
(21:47):
lot from understanding thosepatterns. So if I just continue
this example. So I did not feelthat she recognized or valued
me, well, I probably have rulesfor when I feel that somebody is
recognizing and valuing me, andI have probably not expressed
that to her, I may not even haveexpressed it to myself. So but
(22:10):
if I understand those rules,that what do I need in order for
my basic need of feelingrecognized? What rules needs to
be met in order for that basicneeds to be met? If I understand
that better, I can better saythat to other people and ask for
that, which they'll probablygive me many times, but I can
(22:31):
probably also understand thepattern that I have in my
conflicts and therefore avoidsome of them.
Louisa Weinstein (22:39):
Yeah, that process of, you know, that
process of of understanding whatI need to feel acknowledged, and
to go through a process of beingable to communicate that to that
other person. Hmm. Wow, that Imean, that's a big thing. Right?
That's quite a lot of work. Yes,isn't it? What what a result,
(23:00):
you're able to say to people,you know, I'd really appreciate
it if you do that. Because yousay that you acknowledge me. But
I need to hear this in order foryou to acknowledge me.
Morten Andersen (23:10):
Yes. I as opposed to obviously, now, this
is eight years ago, I can lookat that incident now is harder
to do in the moment, becauseyou're emotionally charged. So
maybe finding some of thosepatterns is something you can do
when you're not emotionallycharged about something?
Louisa Weinstein (23:25):
Well, I don't know. I mean, I love the fact
that you brought this exampleup. And I would suggest that you
might look at this example anduse it and even find some way to
not necessarily say sorry, butrevisit it in some way. Kind of
amend what happened, you canamend kind of what happened.
Yes. And when you've done thatthe weight that can be lifted
(23:47):
from your shoulders, is quiteenormous, you know, what you
might do is be able to re engagewith that other person, or, you
know, sometimes what happens isthat we suddenly have worked it
through and that other personwalks down the street and we see
them, we suddenly realize, youknow, and it doesn't have to be
this ground apology, it justneeds to be well, you know, I
was really thinking about whathappened. And I realized that I
(24:10):
did this and you know, I wouldhave liked to have done
something different. Yes, yes.
And then it's on or even if youyou know, you can even kind of
write a letter to that personand then that helps it not
happen again.
Morten Andersen (24:32):
Okay, so you obviously have a fantastic
experience with conflictmediation resolution, and I want
to tap into that experience. SoI and also the listeners can
learn from what you know. Soyou've seen where it's probably
gone really, really well andwhere it's gone terribly wrong
and, you know, got someexperience from that. My
question is, you obviously comein and help parties resolve a
(24:56):
conflict. The first thingobviously is to get the parties
to the table and I want to havethat conversation with you. So
you can maybe force them intothe same room. But if they're
sitting with arms crossed and donot want to really engage with
you, then you can probably notget so much out of them. So how
do you get to the first stagewhere people actually want to be
(25:17):
in that room and want to resolveit?
Louisa Weinstein (25:20):
I think it really helps in an organization,
if you've got that culture inplace where it's normal that,
you know, this is the process wego through. And there are
various stages before that, butit's not some you know, it's
part of the process. You know,we bring in a mediator if we
need help to resolve something,or you or you might call them a
facilitator, or, you know,sometimes a way that you name
(25:41):
the person that's coming in tohelp resolve things. And you're
very clear about the clearer youare about the boundaries in that
process, the easier it is. So amediator coming to mediation is
a voluntary process. First ofall, the conversations with the
mediator are confidential. Soalthough you have to kind of
work with confidentiality withina work process, because things
(26:02):
might easily slip out, you needto kind of negotiate that
confidential confidentiality,and the parties need to believe
that the mediator is impartial.
So one of the ways to do it isto give the parties an
opportunity to have a half anhour conversation with the
mediator, before even decidingto mediate. And in that what
they effectively have is aconflict coaching situation
(26:24):
around conflict coachingconversation around whether or
not they want to mediate, andwhat they want to do if they
don't need you. And what it doesis provide a little bit of air
space to go or the situation'sawful, I've been offered
mediation, don't want it Okay,fine. You know, the mediator
isn't going to force someoneinto mediation, it doesn't
really benefit anyone, you wantto support the person to make
(26:48):
some decisions so that if theydecide not to mediate, it's
because they've decided to dosomething else, and that that's
right for them, and or themediator will help them feel
safe.
Morten Andersen (26:59):
Yes. So as opposed, if it's in a marriage,
often people go to a marriagecounselor, often that person has
a psychology degree or somethinglike that, and you feel that
you're going to an impartialperson and have a conversation.
And I suppose that's the same inan organization. That just makes
me think that maybe evensomebody from HR may not be the
(27:20):
right person, because sometimesthey may be perceived, rightly
or wrongly, to be more on oneside than the other. So
sometimes getting somebody fromoutside is actually the most
valuable thing.
Louisa Weinstein (27:33):
That That's right. I mean, I think the more
that you train up people in theorganization to be able to have
conflict coaching conversations,the better it has an HR,
obviously, you know, most,pretty much all HR that I speak
to are really on the side of theemployee. But as you say,
there's a perception thatthey're on the side of the
organization. Yes. And so HRneeds to be able to have those
(27:55):
conflict coaching conversations.
And sometimes it's not worthtraining up all of HR to become
mediators. Sometimes it's easy,just bring in a mediator. So
there are lots of play. But Ithink what I feel very strongly
about is building that cultureof early resolution. So, you
know, in our conversationbefore, actually, the team
members are able to work throughconflict and have some of those
(28:16):
skills. And it's not all on HR.
And I think that most HR will bevery happy to say yes, give
managers some of those skills sothat they can deal with it,
because they often pass thingsto HR, like a kind of mom or dad
role. That Yes, isn't shouldn'tbe with HR.
Morten Andersen (28:34):
Yes. In your book, you talk about sort of
building a culture and howimportant conflict friendly
culture is. And is thatsomething that you see often to
see organizations working onthat? Or is that still in its
early stages?
Louisa Weinstein (28:52):
I think it is in its early stages. And
sometimes it's an early stages,because people don't necessarily
realize how simple it is, hmm,there is a big crossover with
coaching. So coaching cansupport that process quite well.
But the mechanics of resolvingconflicts and conflict
resolution is very much aprocess. And it's important to
be able to understand thoseprocess, that process and the
(29:14):
dynamics that go on within thatprocess. And if you enabled the
people within the organizationto do that and have touchpoints
in that organization forresolution, including at the top
of mediation, but earlier onpeer coaching, resolution
agents, etc. You can create thatculture quite easily. Hmm. Yeah,
(29:36):
maybe it feels a bit like a toomuch. Too much of a big deal.
But actually, yeah, people, it'sthere, but it's it's not as
efficient, I think, as it couldbe.
Morten Andersen (29:47):
Well, I think it's, it's kind of the same in a
marriage in a sense that ifevery time that you have a
conflict and we often haveconflicts in marriages, if you
don't talk about it, or justleave it aside, then you know,
all of us Sudden it will burstinto something really ugly. But
if you have a, let's call it aculture, if you have a way that
you normally deal with conflictin your marriage, chances are
(30:11):
that you will keep the, the thelevel of intensity of conflict
at a lower level. And thereforeyou can you can manage them
better. So, I can see, I mean,because we can all resonate with
that, or a partner or a friendor something, we can all
resonate with that conflictshappen. And sometimes you don't
deal with them immediately. Butif you don't deal with them,
(30:31):
they'll actually, the nextconflict will stand on top of
the previous conflict. And youwill have a big mountain of
conflicts all of a sudden,unless you have a culture or a
way of dealing with conflicts
Louisa Weinstein (30:43):
and to preempt it. And I think there's a very
easy way actually, there's amethod that I have actually
taken from family dynamics, fromfamily kind of conversations
that I think applies very wellin team check ins. So you go
through a five point a veryquick five point agenda, you
(31:05):
need to kind of talk about itand work it through. But
essentially, the agenda is, sowhen I'm checking in with you
weekly, we go through thisagenda. And what this agenda
includes is, well, it startswith appreciations. So it starts
with what I appreciate aboutyou. And if I'm really irritated
with you, that's a brilliantplace to start because I have to
search for what I appreciateabout you. And you feel
(31:28):
appreciated. So that enables youto open up a little bit towards
me. So appreciations then, sonot necessarily in this order,
but hopes and dreams. So howwe'd like things to go in the
future, how we'd you know, whatwe hope from the team, we hope
from our job puzzles. So,instead of looking at problems,
(31:50):
you're looking at puzzles, sowhat are you working on at work,
I've got a puzzle, notnecessarily to resolve it, but
to deal with the puzzles. Thenext one is complaints and
recommendations. We will lovethat one, we want to do that one
first. But complaints andrecommendations are in a
particular point of that agenda.
So we can say, I'm going to lookat complaints or
recommendations. Now mycomplaint is my recommendation
(32:10):
is so that my complaint doesn'tcompletely take over. Yes. And
then new information. So oftenwe forget to tell someone really
key information. Now obviously,a family situation, it might be
that, you know, I'm working nextweek. So you're going to need to
pick up, you know, can you pickup the kids from from school,
but those but we kind of assumethat they know that we're
(32:34):
working and so or, or we assumethat they know that the project
might be delayed because oftechnology and how technology
happens. But if we provide thatnew information,
Morten Andersen (32:46):
I think there's a couple of things in what you
say there that is that is veryhelpful. First is that when
we're talking about culture inan organization that can become
very big, very bland, also verydifficult to actually want to do
anything about what should I do.
But when you drive it down toteam level, then it becomes a
lot more concrete. So I actuallythink, thinking about driving
better conflict resolution in acompany in an organization, if
(33:08):
you think about it at a teamlevel, that is probably the most
effective. And the second thingI think about when you say all
of this is that whenever we talkabout high effective teams or
teams that work well, one of thethings that is always mentioned
is trust, the high level oftrust you have, the better that
you will function. And actually,the five points that you have on
your agenda, I think will buildtrust. So that you on one hand
(33:31):
is is saying what you appreciateabout this person and what you
hope and, and dreams are for,for the team and for this
person. But also that youactually put things on the table
that you don't think is workingwell, and you do it in a non
threatening way, is buildingtrust. And I think what I take
from that is that working onthis at a team level and do it
(33:54):
in a structured way, will haveso many benefits.
Louisa Weinstein (33:59):
And it's also quite easy. So you say to
someone, let's run through thefive point check in, you can say
let's go for a walk and runthrough the five point check in.
And do you want to start? ShouldI start which point you want to
start? It's quite easy toremember those five points. So
we're now on complaints andrecommendations and
appreciations. Yes. You know,and you know that the complaint
(34:20):
and recommendation is coming aswell.
Morten Andersen (34:22):
And I think so teams, and again, I think for
you know, for friendships or forfamilies. And I don't think
there is a big surprise that wecan learn a lot from family
dynamics and what works infamily therapy and bring that
into teams because we have a lotof knowledge about exactly the
dynamics and how one part of theof the family affects other
(34:43):
parts of the family and how youcan actually structure
conversations that resolveconflict.
Louisa Weinstein (34:48):
I think it's important not to kind of put
people off I think it can bevery overwhelming. Hmm.
resolving conflict doesn't haveto be a psychological process
where we're kind of bogged downand having to work through
feelings. Some people just don'twant to do that. And I
completely understand. And youknow, fine, we don't all have to
work through our feelings to geton with people. It's the way
(35:09):
that we learn to communicatewith each other that's
effective. And I think we canput frameworks in place. Whether
you want to explore youremotional intelligence or
whether you don't, I think itcan work both ways. Because even
with that five point agenda, youcan keep it very practical.
Morten Andersen (35:25):
Yes, I think that's a very important point to
make, especially in a worksetting that we also have for
having a practical, collegialrelationship. Let's keep it that
way. And I think that's, that'sa really good point. At the end
of each episode here at WhatMonkeys Do, we sort of have a
couple of do's and don'ts. And Iwould like to hear you what
(35:47):
three advice you would give alistener who find him or herself
in a conflict. So let's say thatthis is a person working at a
workplace, there is a conflictthat is building up. So it has
been just about somedisagreements, but now it's
become a little bit moreemotional, a little bit more
personal. So we're at thatbeginning where I can see, this
(36:08):
can turn nasty if we don't dealwith it. So now I would like to
manage it, I'd like to deal withit. What would you suggest this
person to do?
Louisa Weinstein (36:18):
Take some time with it, the longer you take,
the quicker it gets resolved ina way, then. So take some time
to write down what you want,what that might look like, how
you think things might pan out,and where the other person is.
And also, if you possibly can,you know, get some resource,
look online, get some training,we might book onto one of our
(36:41):
trainings, just to really startto practice those things and
talk it through or talk itthrough with, if you've got
someone that can that can coachyou through it. And to a degree,
that very helpful, because toget clear on where you are in
this, where you are what youwant, what are the potential
consequences and where the otherperson might be? And then you
(37:03):
need to think about how you'regoing to communicate with the
other person and what you wantis that communication and make
sure that you prioritize thatbecause you're probably not
going to get everything.
Morten Andersen (37:12):
Hmm. So take some time to prepare, understand
what it is that you would liketo get out of this. The more
preparation you do, the betterit's likely to be. Secondly, get
some resources, get someknowledge about how do you deal
with these conversations, wellmaybe even talk it through with
(37:32):
somebody. And the third thingis, you know, be clear about how
you're going to handle thiscommunication? Well,
Louisa Weinstein (37:41):
I probably add one more as well, which is that
we're in this situation rightnow, can you laugh at yourself
or laugh at the situation? Wherecan you have a little giggle and
just lighten yourself?
Morten Andersen (37:53):
That's it, that's a really good and
difficult thing to do. Butthat's a really good thing to
do.
Louisa Weinstein (37:58):
If you can, that's why, you know, try hard
to do that I would suggest
Morten Andersen (38:01):
I will do.
Thanks a lot for taking the timeto have this conversation with
me and to give the listenerssome insight into how to deal
with conflicts. That was aphenomenal conversation. Thanks
a lot.
Louisa Weinstein (38:12):
Thank you for having me. Bye.
Morten Andersen (38:20):
What a great conversation with Louisa. I took
three things away from theconversation. One, we have
patterns in our conflicts, weall have conflict, we all
experience them. And conflictsare not necessarily bad, they
can help us grow. Butinterestingly, we have patterns
in our conflicts. Some of themcome for the same underlying
(38:43):
reasons or they come towards thesame type of person. So if you
can identify those patterns thatcan really help you in solving
your conflicts effectively, toour most intense conflicts
happen when there is a violationof a fundamental need. So we
(39:03):
often discuss symptoms, youdon't clean up after you I want
you to spend more time at home,or I want to make the
presentation not you. But all ofthat is just symptoms behind
those symptoms, there is aviolation of a fundamental need.
You don't acknowledge me, or youdon't recognize me. Three,
(39:25):
structured conversations insmall units, such as teams of
families can prevent conflictsfrom escalating. It's really
hard to change the culturearound conflicts, especially if
you're in in a largeorganization. smaller units are
much better, a family of five ora team of six. That's where it's
possible to change the cultureof the conversations that we
(39:48):
have. Great talk. Thanks a lotagain. If you like the interview
and you want to hear more,please press the subscribe
button. Also. If you did likethe interview will appreciate if
you give the podcast a five starfeedback. It helps a lot for our
reach. Until next time, takecare
Hello, and welcome to What Monkeys Do. My
name is Morten Kamp Andersen.
And this is a podcast about whatit takes to make a change and
make it stick.
In today's episode of WhatMonkeys Do, we will look at
conflicts and more specificallyabout how to manage and solve
(00:27):
conflicts. I've experienced manyconflicts in my life. And some
of them were one way conflicts,meaning that I had a conflict
with one person, but they didn'tknow about it, or they didn't
care about it. But many othertimes it's been a two way
conflict. So one example wasabout eight years ago, I was
working on a project with awoman. And we disagreed about
(00:49):
who was going to give the finalpresentation to the client about
our results. And thepresentation was a few months
away, and I knew and she knewthat we disagreed about this,
but we did not take theconversation, we delayed the
talk. So it intensified. And westarted to talk bad about each
(01:09):
other and sabotage each other'swork. And in the end, she went
behind my back, and she agreedwith the client that she was
going to give the presentation,I disliked her. And I told most
of the people around me, I toldmy wife at the time, anybody who
cared to listen to me. And thefunny thing is that now I can
see why she might have beenright or at least I can see her
(01:30):
point of view her perspective.
But even though this is eightyears ago, I still don't want to
admit to her face. I haven'tseen it for five years. But if I
met her, I still don't want toadmit to her face that she might
have been right. I mean, it didnot end well. Most of us have
been in a conflict at work, orat home, or both places,
conflicts are just part of life,and some seem to be involved in
(01:54):
more conflicts than others. Someseems to be managing these
conflicts better than others.
But what is the fact is that weall face them once in a while
that seems to be universal. Myguest today is an expert in
mediation and disputeresolution. And hopefully she
(02:14):
can help me understand what Ishould have done eight years
ago, with my conflict. She haswritten the excellent book The
Seven Principles of ConflictResolution, she's set up the
Conflict Resolution Center,which is based in London, she
has a background in law. Welcometo you, Louisa Weinstein,
Louisa Weinstein (02:31):
thank you so much.
Morten Andersen (02:33):
I want to start off with understanding what a
conflict is. So we use this termfor a lot of different things.
So disagreements or fights, wehave discussions, we have a
battles, or disputes or fightsor controversies. So it really
is something that we use for abig group of words and
terminology. So I guess there isa line when you go from seeing
(02:54):
things differently to being in aconflict. And I guess that line
is very subjective. So I justwant to start off with what is
the conflict?
Louisa Weinstein (03:02):
Well, I'd say that conflict is attention or
breach of the rules, whetherthat is actual or perceived. But
I think what's interesting inthe question, is that all, you
know, an argument about or anirritation about who does the
who washes up the tea cup can bea conflict. It's how we see the
word conflict. We don't like theword conflict. So conflicts
(03:25):
cover pretty much everything.
But sometimes we don't want toput the word on it because it
feels like it inflames it. Soany situation where I disagree
with you is a conflict. Is it abad thing? No. But is conflict a
bad thing? Not necessarily.
Morten Andersen (03:41):
Okay, so. So conflicts, actually, every time
that we disagree aboutsomething, it's actually a
conflict. And some conflicts aregood, because it creates
disagreements, and we have adiscussion about it, and
hopefully, we'll end a betterplace. And some conflicts are
bad, because that destroyrelationships, I suppose.
Louisa Weinstein (04:00):
I don't think any conflicts are bad. I think
conflicts are opportunities forchange, always. It's how we deal
with them. And sometimes they'reso difficult to deal with that
they feel really bad. Andobviously, when conflicts turn
violent, angry, destructive, theoutcome of the conflict is bad.
But the conflict is notnecessarily bad. The conflict
(04:21):
just says, I think one way youthink another and it's an
opportunity for creative change.
Morten Andersen (04:27):
I can actually follow that. Because when you
put it like that sounds reallyinteresting. But if I have a
disagreement with somebody, I'mreadily happy to have a meeting
with that person and say, okay,we disagree about this, let's
have a conversation. If I say inmy head that I have a conflict
with that person, I'll probablytry to avoid it because conflict
sounds like something I shouldstay away from,
Louisa Weinstein (04:47):
which is why I need to frame it differently.
Often, actually, it's a goodidea to recognize that I have a
conflict because if I recognizethat I have a conflict, then I
can start managing and dealingwith it. If I don't recognize it
I'm trying to push away the factthat there's a conflict, it
starts to take over me. Andthat's when it starts getting
out of control.
Morten Andersen (05:06):
Hmm. And getting out of control, I guess
you can have different levels ofconflict, or they can have
different levels of intensity.
So I have some, let's call themdisagreements or conflict where
I'm just Okay, I'll deal withthat tomorrow. And then I have
somewhere I can hardly sleep,and it creates an uneasy feeling
in my stomach, and I just don'tfeel good about.
Louisa Weinstein (05:27):
Yes, absolutely. It's the emotional
and intellectual response.
Sometimes we have both anintellectual and an emotional
response. That's often when wecan't sleep. Hmm. Sometimes we
just have one, we have avisceral response that may have
been triggered by something thathappened years and years and
years ago, maybe eight yearsago,
Morten Andersen (05:44):
it's actually something if somebody asked me
about it, I can still feel theemotion about that conflict. And
I also have experiences when Isit at a dinner table, and they
have a conflict with theirneighbor. And I only need to ask
one question, and they willstart their sort of speech about
how bad that neighbor is, andhow ungrateful that neighbor is,
(06:06):
and so on. So there are someemotional charged conflicts that
really can go on for many yearsand speak to anyone about it.
Louisa Weinstein (06:14):
Yes, even when we're not with those people, we
can work away to resolve it,because there's so much that
sits around it. And there's,there's so much that we often
take into the next conflict, thenext situation, because of habit
of not having resolved thatoriginal situation.
Morten Andersen (06:32):
Yes. So in the beginning, I said that conflicts
are part of life. And I suppose,with your definition, that every
time we disagree about somethingled to be who should clean up
the teacup, then that is aconflict, then I can definitely
see how that is part of life.
But I am here I'm putting wordsinto your mouth. I probably also
believe that you would say that,you know, emotionally charged
(06:52):
conflicts are not part of life.
So that is conflicts that youhaven't resolved properly, or is
that is that how I shouldunderstand that kind of
conflicts?
Louisa Weinstein (07:04):
Hmm, I don't I don't know. I think that we
carry around a lot of conflictwith us a lot of the time, a lot
of you know, unresolvedtensions, hmm. And some of them
affect us. And we aren't awareof them, you know, and also,
we're all different. So some ofus are quite robust, we're quite
comfortable with conflict. Andactually, the more we become
(07:26):
comfortable with conflict, it'seasier to traverse through.
Morten Andersen (07:29):
Yes. And conflicts obviously can happen
all the time. So they can happenat home. So I haven't I haven't
cleaned up my room. And my wifemay tell me about it. So you
know, that's a kind of conflict.
Yeah. But obviously, WhatMonkeys Do is a podcast about
change. And many times when wehave a change in the workplace,
they are often imposed upon you.
(07:49):
So a manager saying now we haveto work using teams or office
365, or we have to move intothese new officers or something
like that. So something ishappening, you are imposed a
change, and that can create aconflict, I suppose you You must
see conflicts like that often inyour line of work.
Louisa Weinstein (08:08):
Yeah, I think a lot of I think a lot of things
happen, I think the first thingthat can happen is that
something happens with theindividual internally, they
start to maybe have fear oranxiety about the change, they
might reconsider their positionin the organization, they may
feel unsupported by theorganization. And actually, that
might be something that is a bitof a pattern for them, or any of
(08:29):
the things can be something thatthey continued feel, you know, I
always get taken advantage of Ialways get. So there are two
things that can happen there.
Sometimes the individualresolves it themselves and, and
how they respond to it is goingto is is going to really define
what happens next. But andsometimes it needs a
conversation with the employer,because sometimes the employer
(08:49):
or often, obviously, theemployer won't have seen some of
the consequences of what's goingto happen. Unless there's a
conversation about it that says,you know, this isn't working, or
I don't like this, the employerwon't know. And so the changes
often, you know thatorganizational changes or
process changes don't get tohappen. And what happens instead
(09:11):
is that there are issues betweenthe individuals, and the the
functional issue takes quite awhile to unravel, because it
seems that often, it seems likequite a little thing. But I
think that when that happens,it's very important to
understand that you're in aconflict situation, because then
you cannot identify people'sresponses. So okay, we're in a
(09:33):
conflict situation, someone'savoiding it. Someone's being
aggressive about it. Someonewants to talk all day about it.
Someone wants to find a quicksolution. Someone wants to just
say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, butresentful toward the colleagues.
So we must understand that, youknow, this is a complex
situation and start to observe,you know, how is everyone
responding to it? And is that agood response for this
(09:55):
situation?
Morten Andersen (09:58):
Yes. So A change is happening and may be
imposed, that creates someemotions. Fear could be one of
them. And fear is actually an anemotion you often see in people
when something happens, it maynot be the one that they
recognize themselves ordefinitely talk about, but fear
could be an emotion thathappens. And that can lead to a
conflict if not resolved. And afirst part of that is for the
(10:21):
manager to have a conversationto try to understand what's
going on with you. So you areaware whether you are in a
conflict situation?
Louisa Weinstein (10:30):
I think so.
But I would also suggest thatit's not that it's also the team
need to be equipped to be ableto deal with themselves and not
conflict. So I might be in asituation where there's a whole
load of change going on, I mightnot have worked out what I feel
about that what I think aboutthat, and I don't want to speak
to my manager yet, because I'mnot yet clear. What would be
(10:51):
better is if I could speak to acolleague that is able to peer
coach me through the situation,which would enable me to
actually think through, do Iwant to stay in this job? Do I
want to continue these things?
If I do, then what do I need todo? Are there compromises I need
to make? What negotiations Do Ihave to go through? Yes,
(11:12):
effectively, when you'respeaking to your manager, you're
negotiating the amount of youknow, the manager at the board,
at the end of the day is goingto want you to be happy, yes,
but also, for you to perform. Soyou, the individuals within the
team need to be equipped to takeresponsibility for their
responses, otherwise, itcontinues this kind of
patriarchal response to youknow, are you okay? Do you know,
(11:36):
how can I make it better foryou, maybe you need to make it
better for yourself. And I needto allow that to happen. But
that conversation needs to bemanaged carefully, I need to
give you the tools to have itand not necessarily with me,
manager.
Morten Andersen (12:00):
Good. So I want to talk about the conversation.
So the difficult conversationthat you will need to have at
some point. So you'veacknowledged that there is a
conflict. And that's reallyPrinciple number one in your
book, I guess the first point isyou need to recognize there is a
conflict here. And either it canbe you recognizing that I have a
conflict with this person, or itcould be a manager, recognizing
(12:23):
that there is a conflict in myteam between these two people,
or whatever it might be. Sothat's the first thing. The
second is you need to try tomanage your state also principle
two. And you sort of done that.
And now you're going to sit downwith the person that you have a
conflict with. And that'sactually a hard thing to do to
say, I know you and I we don'tsee eye to eye on this, we have
different perspectives. Are youwilling to have a conversation
(12:45):
with me about this? Can youmaybe go through how how people
should manage that process ofgoing to a person suggesting a
conversation and and how best toconduct that conversation?
Louisa Weinstein (13:00):
The starting point is looking at what are
your priorities? And what do youwant to get out of the
conversation to really considerwhat you want, and how you think
that might that might beachieved? Before you even have a
conversation with that otherperson to consider what they
where they might be. And I'dwrite it out because then you
can kind of see it a little bitmore clearly. And your
(13:22):
negotiation stance. So what areyou prepared to move on? And
what are you not prepared tomove on? So preparation is
absolutely everything. And inthat what you might find is that
you might not have to have aconversation with that person a
full blown conversation, youmight have a series of
conversations, particularly ifthey're difficult to talk to.
Hmm, so the most important thingI think, is to get the hook. So
(13:45):
what is the incentive for themto have a conversation? Because
if you if I've had tensions withyou, and then I say we need to
talk about this, the first thingyou're going to do is try not to
talk about it with me. Hmm. Sowe need to identify need to
identify common interest inneeds things that are going to
motivate you to have aconversation with me and to be
(14:06):
invested in that conversation.
Morten Andersen (14:08):
Sometimes that common interest can just be
we're not having a good workingrelationship here or you know,
there is tension between us. Idon't like it, you don't like
it. So just getting rid of thattension. So sometimes it can be
about the subject, but sometimesit can also just get rid of that
tension as opposed.
Louisa Weinstein (14:23):
Yes. Although if you said that to me, I think
I'd feel a little bitoverwhelmed. Okay, I might just
want you to say, how are you?
Huh? Have you got 15 minutes, sothen I know, it's 15 minutes. I
don't have to be with you forthat amount of time. I've got to
let out. And in thatconversation, actually what
we're doing, particularly if youwant to build the relationship,
(14:46):
and I am not sure that I evenwant to have the conversation.
You're building trust and inthat you're going to listen to
me because actually, I might besuch a difficult individual that
You need to analyze as well,whether this is going to work
for you whether you can actuallyconverse with me and how. So on
one hand, you're supporting meto have the conversation, and
(15:07):
you're finding out actuallywhat's going on. But you also
need to be prepared for what I'mgoing to come back with all the
criticisms I might put on you,you know, you need to be
prepared that that might happen.
And you need in that firstconversation, to be listening
really deeply, and just a realsounding board and able to hear,
(15:29):
and then take some time toconsider it. So when those
conversations are hard to havein the first place, make them
short, make them time bound.
Morten Andersen (15:36):
So short listening, I mean, I suppose
that's one of the hardest thingto do is to have sort of that
active listening mode on. So andI like that you say, be
prepared, because sometimes weoften just book a meeting often
because we're very busy. Butalso because you know that we
don't consider what's actuallyat stake here. What do I want to
(15:57):
get out of this, but also maybeget into that listening mode. So
we have 15 minutes here, I justwant to really understand that
person's perspective as opposed,
Louisa Weinstein (16:06):
yeah, because effectively when you're in a
conflict, you're going to haveto, at some point, have a
negotiation. If you're going toresolve it, you're gonna have to
negotiate that conflict. So youneed to know how to negotiate,
you need to prepare your top andbottom lines, you need to
understand their top and bottomlines, you need to understand
how to negotiate, what's thenegotiation strategy, do you
(16:27):
even know. And then you doreally need to hear the other
person because they are going tohave some nuggets that will help
you resolve this, that's thething, we can't resolve a
conflict with someone else onour own, we it has to engage the
other person. The other thingis, if you have regular focus
check ins with people, then it'seasier to have those difficult
(16:47):
conversations. And there arethere are ways to have those
conversations. and dare I say,especially remotely in order
that those conversations can beboth practical, efficient, and
enable you to build arelationship.
Morten Andersen (17:01):
Sometimes the conflict is with somebody at my
own level. And that makes itsomewhat easier to go and say, I
would like to have aconversation with you, we need
to resolve this or, you know,let's let's talk this out. If
it's my manager that I have aconflict with, that might be
more tricky, because there is apower imbalance simply, what do
you do in a situation like that?
Louisa Weinstein (17:22):
Well, I think it's really important for
managers to equip employees tohave those conversations and for
employees, or team members totake responsibility for their
capacity to have thoseconversations, again, you're
doing the same thing, you aresupporting the manager in their
conflict with you, you're doingexactly the same thing you are,
(17:45):
you're being the grown up. Soprobably know my book, I love
the book Games People Play byEric Berne, just because I am
subordinate to you, it doesn'tmean that I have to, you know,
act as a child, I can be anadult mode and support you be
objective. Listen to you, youknow, if I do that I become much
(18:07):
more empowered. It's also likethe customer service
relationship. Okay, you'rebuying from me, but I can still
support you, in your conflictwith me. So, you know, if I have
an issue with the manager, and Ijust turn up and listen to where
the manager is, but I need to beprepared for what they're going
to say. And I need to be clearabout where I'm negotiating from
(18:28):
as well.
Morten Andersen (18:29):
Yes, my own experiences that the more
intense and emotional intense aconflict is, the more it is
because that there is afundamental need in me that has
been violated. So if I take theif I think about the conflict
that I had eight years ago, nowon the surface, it looked like
(18:49):
that we were in conflict aboutwho should give a presentation,
but probably really was a playwas that I did not feel that she
recognized me for what I coulddo. So we might go in and have a
negotiation about, you know, whoshould say what in this
presentation. But that wasreally that would probably not
have solved it. Because what wasreally a play was that I did not
(19:12):
feel that she recognized thevalue that I was bringing to our
working relationship. So it wasa deeper value than the
presentation. And maybe we foundout that I could give the
presentation. But if I stilldidn't feel that she recognized
me, I would have found somethingelse that we would have been in
conflict about. So how do yousuggest that you have a
(19:36):
conversation where you try tofind out what fundamental need
has been violated here?
Louisa Weinstein (19:42):
Right. So you identified that you identified
that issue for you that youdidn't feel recognized. And I
think what I'd ask you is, Hasthat happened before? Where is
it happened? Where is thispattern repeating? And is this
something that you're kind ofsetting her up for almost
(20:02):
creating. Because if you feellike you need to be valued by
her, then I suppose my questionwould be, do you value yourself?
And where you may be nervousabout where you might not be
able to deliver to the samedegree? And then what do you
want to do about that? Becauseactually, maybe you're concerned
(20:24):
about not being able to deliverand maybe you can deliver, but
this fear that you can't, and itkeeps on holding you back. And I
mean, I don't need to teach mygrandmother to suck eggs, you
know, this can this can be quitedeep rooted. I mean, that, you
know, can we and the more werecognize, you know, what, I do
this with my husband, I do thiswith my mom, you know, I go into
situations, and I don't feelrecognized or acknowledged,
(20:46):
that's really hard, because thenwhat do I do with that, but it's
not the other person's issue.
And what I would also say isthat there'll be some things
that will be going on with heras well. Hmm. And she'll be, you
know, playing some some of thosegames in her head. And, and
what's difficult is that whenyou work out, you know, where
your responsibility is, and whatthe issues are for you.
(21:07):
Sometimes you might expect herto have done that, too. And she
won't necessarily have done, youknow, you need to work out, you
know, what your, what your partis where you're, you know, what
the challenges are for youpersonally. And then except that
she may not do that as well.
Morten Andersen (21:26):
That's really fascinating, because what you're
really turning it upside down,in a sense, because what you're
saying is that, obviously, myfocus is on her and what she's
doing wrong and how poor she is.
But what you're really saying isthat, well two steps back is
that you're really saying isthat we have a lot of conflicts
in our lives. And we have thatat work in our home. And that
probably patterns in thoseconflicts. And we can learn a
(21:47):
lot from understanding thosepatterns. So if I just continue
this example. So I did not feelthat she recognized or valued
me, well, I probably have rulesfor when I feel that somebody is
recognizing and valuing me, andI have probably not expressed
that to her, I may not even haveexpressed it to myself. So but
(22:10):
if I understand those rules,that what do I need in order for
my basic need of feelingrecognized? What rules needs to
be met in order for that basicneeds to be met? If I understand
that better, I can better saythat to other people and ask for
that, which they'll probablygive me many times, but I can
(22:31):
probably also understand thepattern that I have in my
conflicts and therefore avoidsome of them.
Louisa Weinstein (22:39):
Yeah, that process of, you know, that
process of of understanding whatI need to feel acknowledged, and
to go through a process of beingable to communicate that to that
other person. Hmm. Wow, that Imean, that's a big thing. Right?
That's quite a lot of work. Yes,isn't it? What what a result,
(23:00):
you're able to say to people,you know, I'd really appreciate
it if you do that. Because yousay that you acknowledge me. But
I need to hear this in order foryou to acknowledge me.
Morten Andersen (23:10):
Yes. I as opposed to obviously, now, this
is eight years ago, I can lookat that incident now is harder
to do in the moment, becauseyou're emotionally charged. So
maybe finding some of thosepatterns is something you can do
when you're not emotionallycharged about something?
Louisa Weinstein (23:25):
Well, I don't know. I mean, I love the fact
that you brought this exampleup. And I would suggest that you
might look at this example anduse it and even find some way to
not necessarily say sorry, butrevisit it in some way. Kind of
amend what happened, you canamend kind of what happened.
Yes. And when you've done thatthe weight that can be lifted
(23:47):
from your shoulders, is quiteenormous, you know, what you
might do is be able to re engagewith that other person, or, you
know, sometimes what happens isthat we suddenly have worked it
through and that other personwalks down the street and we see
them, we suddenly realize, youknow, and it doesn't have to be
this ground apology, it justneeds to be well, you know, I
was really thinking about whathappened. And I realized that I
(24:10):
did this and you know, I wouldhave liked to have done
something different. Yes, yes.
And then it's on or even if youyou know, you can even kind of
write a letter to that personand then that helps it not
happen again.
Morten Andersen (24:32):
Okay, so you obviously have a fantastic
experience with conflictmediation resolution, and I want
to tap into that experience. SoI and also the listeners can
learn from what you know. Soyou've seen where it's probably
gone really, really well andwhere it's gone terribly wrong
and, you know, got someexperience from that. My
question is, you obviously comein and help parties resolve a
(24:56):
conflict. The first thingobviously is to get the parties
to the table and I want to havethat conversation with you. So
you can maybe force them intothe same room. But if they're
sitting with arms crossed and donot want to really engage with
you, then you can probably notget so much out of them. So how
do you get to the first stagewhere people actually want to be
(25:17):
in that room and want to resolveit?
Louisa Weinstein (25:20):
I think it really helps in an organization,
if you've got that culture inplace where it's normal that,
you know, this is the process wego through. And there are
various stages before that, butit's not some you know, it's
part of the process. You know,we bring in a mediator if we
need help to resolve something,or you or you might call them a
facilitator, or, you know,sometimes a way that you name
(25:41):
the person that's coming in tohelp resolve things. And you're
very clear about the clearer youare about the boundaries in that
process, the easier it is. So amediator coming to mediation is
a voluntary process. First ofall, the conversations with the
mediator are confidential. Soalthough you have to kind of
work with confidentiality withina work process, because things
(26:02):
might easily slip out, you needto kind of negotiate that
confidential confidentiality,and the parties need to believe
that the mediator is impartial.
So one of the ways to do it isto give the parties an
opportunity to have a half anhour conversation with the
mediator, before even decidingto mediate. And in that what
they effectively have is aconflict coaching situation
(26:24):
around conflict coachingconversation around whether or
not they want to mediate, andwhat they want to do if they
don't need you. And what it doesis provide a little bit of air
space to go or the situation'sawful, I've been offered
mediation, don't want it Okay,fine. You know, the mediator
isn't going to force someoneinto mediation, it doesn't
really benefit anyone, you wantto support the person to make
(26:48):
some decisions so that if theydecide not to mediate, it's
because they've decided to dosomething else, and that that's
right for them, and or themediator will help them feel
safe.
Morten Andersen (26:59):
Yes. So as opposed, if it's in a marriage,
often people go to a marriagecounselor, often that person has
a psychology degree or somethinglike that, and you feel that
you're going to an impartialperson and have a conversation.
And I suppose that's the same inan organization. That just makes
me think that maybe evensomebody from HR may not be the
(27:20):
right person, because sometimesthey may be perceived, rightly
or wrongly, to be more on oneside than the other. So
sometimes getting somebody fromoutside is actually the most
valuable thing.
Louisa Weinstein (27:33):
That That's right. I mean, I think the more
that you train up people in theorganization to be able to have
conflict coaching conversations,the better it has an HR,
obviously, you know, most,pretty much all HR that I speak
to are really on the side of theemployee. But as you say,
there's a perception thatthey're on the side of the
organization. Yes. And so HRneeds to be able to have those
(27:55):
conflict coaching conversations.
And sometimes it's not worthtraining up all of HR to become
mediators. Sometimes it's easy,just bring in a mediator. So
there are lots of play. But Ithink what I feel very strongly
about is building that cultureof early resolution. So, you
know, in our conversationbefore, actually, the team
members are able to work throughconflict and have some of those
(28:16):
skills. And it's not all on HR.
And I think that most HR will bevery happy to say yes, give
managers some of those skills sothat they can deal with it,
because they often pass thingsto HR, like a kind of mom or dad
role. That Yes, isn't shouldn'tbe with HR.
Morten Andersen (28:34):
Yes. In your book, you talk about sort of
building a culture and howimportant conflict friendly
culture is. And is thatsomething that you see often to
see organizations working onthat? Or is that still in its
early stages?
Louisa Weinstein (28:52):
I think it is in its early stages. And
sometimes it's an early stages,because people don't necessarily
realize how simple it is, hmm,there is a big crossover with
coaching. So coaching cansupport that process quite well.
But the mechanics of resolvingconflicts and conflict
resolution is very much aprocess. And it's important to
be able to understand thoseprocess, that process and the
(29:14):
dynamics that go on within thatprocess. And if you enabled the
people within the organizationto do that and have touchpoints
in that organization forresolution, including at the top
of mediation, but earlier onpeer coaching, resolution
agents, etc. You can create thatculture quite easily. Hmm. Yeah,
(29:36):
maybe it feels a bit like a toomuch. Too much of a big deal.
But actually, yeah, people, it'sthere, but it's it's not as
efficient, I think, as it couldbe.
Morten Andersen (29:47):
Well, I think it's, it's kind of the same in a
marriage in a sense that ifevery time that you have a
conflict and we often haveconflicts in marriages, if you
don't talk about it, or justleave it aside, then you know,
all of us Sudden it will burstinto something really ugly. But
if you have a, let's call it aculture, if you have a way that
you normally deal with conflictin your marriage, chances are
(30:11):
that you will keep the, the thelevel of intensity of conflict
at a lower level. And thereforeyou can you can manage them
better. So, I can see, I mean,because we can all resonate with
that, or a partner or a friendor something, we can all
resonate with that conflictshappen. And sometimes you don't
deal with them immediately. Butif you don't deal with them,
(30:31):
they'll actually, the nextconflict will stand on top of
the previous conflict. And youwill have a big mountain of
conflicts all of a sudden,unless you have a culture or a
way of dealing with conflicts
Louisa Weinstein (30:43):
and to preempt it. And I think there's a very
easy way actually, there's amethod that I have actually
taken from family dynamics, fromfamily kind of conversations
that I think applies very wellin team check ins. So you go
through a five point a veryquick five point agenda, you
(31:05):
need to kind of talk about itand work it through. But
essentially, the agenda is, sowhen I'm checking in with you
weekly, we go through thisagenda. And what this agenda
includes is, well, it startswith appreciations. So it starts
with what I appreciate aboutyou. And if I'm really irritated
with you, that's a brilliantplace to start because I have to
search for what I appreciateabout you. And you feel
(31:28):
appreciated. So that enables youto open up a little bit towards
me. So appreciations then, sonot necessarily in this order,
but hopes and dreams. So howwe'd like things to go in the
future, how we'd you know, whatwe hope from the team, we hope
from our job puzzles. So,instead of looking at problems,
(31:50):
you're looking at puzzles, sowhat are you working on at work,
I've got a puzzle, notnecessarily to resolve it, but
to deal with the puzzles. Thenext one is complaints and
recommendations. We will lovethat one, we want to do that one
first. But complaints andrecommendations are in a
particular point of that agenda.
So we can say, I'm going to lookat complaints or
recommendations. Now mycomplaint is my recommendation
(32:10):
is so that my complaint doesn'tcompletely take over. Yes. And
then new information. So oftenwe forget to tell someone really
key information. Now obviously,a family situation, it might be
that, you know, I'm working nextweek. So you're going to need to
pick up, you know, can you pickup the kids from from school,
but those but we kind of assumethat they know that we're
(32:34):
working and so or, or we assumethat they know that the project
might be delayed because oftechnology and how technology
happens. But if we provide thatnew information,
Morten Andersen (32:46):
I think there's a couple of things in what you
say there that is that is veryhelpful. First is that when
we're talking about culture inan organization that can become
very big, very bland, also verydifficult to actually want to do
anything about what should I do.
But when you drive it down toteam level, then it becomes a
lot more concrete. So I actuallythink, thinking about driving
better conflict resolution in acompany in an organization, if
(33:08):
you think about it at a teamlevel, that is probably the most
effective. And the second thingI think about when you say all
of this is that whenever we talkabout high effective teams or
teams that work well, one of thethings that is always mentioned
is trust, the high level oftrust you have, the better that
you will function. And actually,the five points that you have on
your agenda, I think will buildtrust. So that you on one hand
(33:31):
is is saying what you appreciateabout this person and what you
hope and, and dreams are for,for the team and for this
person. But also that youactually put things on the table
that you don't think is workingwell, and you do it in a non
threatening way, is buildingtrust. And I think what I take
from that is that working onthis at a team level and do it
(33:54):
in a structured way, will haveso many benefits.
Louisa Weinstein (33:59):
And it's also quite easy. So you say to
someone, let's run through thefive point check in, you can say
let's go for a walk and runthrough the five point check in.
And do you want to start? ShouldI start which point you want to
start? It's quite easy toremember those five points. So
we're now on complaints andrecommendations and
appreciations. Yes. You know,and you know that the complaint
(34:20):
and recommendation is coming aswell.
Morten Andersen (34:22):
And I think so teams, and again, I think for
you know, for friendships or forfamilies. And I don't think
there is a big surprise that wecan learn a lot from family
dynamics and what works infamily therapy and bring that
into teams because we have a lotof knowledge about exactly the
dynamics and how one part of theof the family affects other
(34:43):
parts of the family and how youcan actually structure
conversations that resolveconflict.
Louisa Weinstein (34:48):
I think it's important not to kind of put
people off I think it can bevery overwhelming. Hmm.
resolving conflict doesn't haveto be a psychological process
where we're kind of bogged downand having to work through
feelings. Some people just don'twant to do that. And I
completely understand. And youknow, fine, we don't all have to
work through our feelings to geton with people. It's the way
(35:09):
that we learn to communicatewith each other that's
effective. And I think we canput frameworks in place. Whether
you want to explore youremotional intelligence or
whether you don't, I think itcan work both ways. Because even
with that five point agenda, youcan keep it very practical.
Morten Andersen (35:25):
Yes, I think that's a very important point to
make, especially in a worksetting that we also have for
having a practical, collegialrelationship. Let's keep it that
way. And I think that's, that'sa really good point. At the end
of each episode here at WhatMonkeys Do, we sort of have a
couple of do's and don'ts. And Iwould like to hear you what
(35:47):
three advice you would give alistener who find him or herself
in a conflict. So let's say thatthis is a person working at a
workplace, there is a conflictthat is building up. So it has
been just about somedisagreements, but now it's
become a little bit moreemotional, a little bit more
personal. So we're at thatbeginning where I can see, this
(36:08):
can turn nasty if we don't dealwith it. So now I would like to
manage it, I'd like to deal withit. What would you suggest this
person to do?
Louisa Weinstein (36:18):
Take some time with it, the longer you take,
the quicker it gets resolved ina way, then. So take some time
to write down what you want,what that might look like, how
you think things might pan out,and where the other person is.
And also, if you possibly can,you know, get some resource,
look online, get some training,we might book onto one of our
(36:41):
trainings, just to really startto practice those things and
talk it through or talk itthrough with, if you've got
someone that can that can coachyou through it. And to a degree,
that very helpful, because toget clear on where you are in
this, where you are what youwant, what are the potential
consequences and where the otherperson might be? And then you
(37:03):
need to think about how you'regoing to communicate with the
other person and what you wantis that communication and make
sure that you prioritize thatbecause you're probably not
going to get everything.
Morten Andersen (37:12):
Hmm. So take some time to prepare, understand
what it is that you would liketo get out of this. The more
preparation you do, the betterit's likely to be. Secondly, get
some resources, get someknowledge about how do you deal
with these conversations, wellmaybe even talk it through with
(37:32):
somebody. And the third thingis, you know, be clear about how
you're going to handle thiscommunication? Well,
Louisa Weinstein (37:41):
I probably add one more as well, which is that
we're in this situation rightnow, can you laugh at yourself
or laugh at the situation? Wherecan you have a little giggle and
just lighten yourself?
Morten Andersen (37:53):
That's it, that's a really good and
difficult thing to do. Butthat's a really good thing to
do.
Louisa Weinstein (37:58):
If you can, that's why, you know, try hard
to do that I would suggest
Morten Andersen (38:01):
I will do.
Thanks a lot for taking the timeto have this conversation with
me and to give the listenerssome insight into how to deal
with conflicts. That was aphenomenal conversation. Thanks
a lot.
Louisa Weinstein (38:12):
Thank you for having me. Bye.
Morten Andersen (38:20):
What a great conversation with Louisa. I took
three things away from theconversation. One, we have
patterns in our conflicts, weall have conflict, we all
experience them. And conflictsare not necessarily bad, they
can help us grow. Butinterestingly, we have patterns
in our conflicts. Some of themcome for the same underlying
(38:43):
reasons or they come towards thesame type of person. So if you
can identify those patterns thatcan really help you in solving
your conflicts effectively, toour most intense conflicts
happen when there is a violationof a fundamental need. So we
(39:03):
often discuss symptoms, youdon't clean up after you I want
you to spend more time at home,or I want to make the
presentation not you. But all ofthat is just symptoms behind
those symptoms, there is aviolation of a fundamental need.
You don't acknowledge me, or youdon't recognize me. Three,
(39:25):
structured conversations insmall units, such as teams of
families can prevent conflictsfrom escalating. It's really
hard to change the culturearound conflicts, especially if
you're in in a largeorganization. smaller units are
much better, a family of five ora team of six. That's where it's
possible to change the cultureof the conversations that we
(39:48):
have. Great talk. Thanks a lotagain. If you like the interview
and you want to hear more,please press the subscribe
button. Also. If you did likethe interview will appreciate if
you give the podcast a five starfeedback. It helps a lot for our
reach. Until next time, takecare
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